Topic

Social Contract

In my experience, Glitch is pretty unique as far as emergent gameplay and the nature of the community. Has this brought to anyone else's mind the idea of social contracts?

I think sometimes we can certainly be too negative toward those who play Glitch differently from us.  Name calling, finger-pointing, and so forth happens and I think leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.  But I also think that because of the specific social aspects, there naturally arise expectations as to how things work and disapproval when a player doesn't meet those expectations.

So in my mind a nice balance of this would be that if people are playing within the terms of service and community guidelines and something happens that Person A doesn't like, for Person A to step back and realize that the game is fun for different people in different ways - And if Person B plays the game differently from the majority of people, Person B could realize that as long as play is within the tos/guidelines it is okay, but also understand that sometimes a different style of play might irritate others.

But the reason I'm creating this thread is not to promote my idea of balance but to encourage discussion. I'd love to hear what people think about this!  Do you think that balance is possible? Are there other ways to achieve it?  And also if you have any ideas about Glitchian social contracts in general (or experiences with them in other games) I'd really love to read.

I've seen plenty of arguments about specific aspects of gameplay and how they "should" or "should not" be, and I've seen plenty of people being upset towards people in the opposite "camp" from them.  I'd rather not see things like that here.  Constructive = good!

Posted 7 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I think balance is possible. Yin and Yang, my friends. I like all play styles, and creativity and alternative goals are welcome.

    Edit - I especially agree with OP because she's blue.
    Posted 7 months ago by Messy Monster Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Excellent!

    I think that this sort of stepping back and thinking about it a bit can also be applied to forum discussions.  Someone piping up with their own opinion and what they see are points forgotten by the Original Poster may not actually be angry or purposefully dismissive of the Original Poster!  It's good to remember that.

    It may sound like it.  And, even if they are, they may have some salient points worth noting, and they too have their own concerns that they are defending.

    There are ways of discussing these things in a civil and constructive manner.  But it's probably good to remember that not everybody is skilled at doing so, and not everybody who is reading those words are in a calm state of mind to begin with.  However, if more of us try, we can provide a more common and better example, no?
    Posted 7 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love to steal things.
    Posted 7 months ago by ☣ elf ☣ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A fine and important point, Mr. elf!  Thank you!
    Posted 7 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • :)

    I hope that explained everything.
    Posted 7 months ago by OMG BACON!! Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would like there to be public areas in Glitch where people practice tolerance and all that. But I'd also like semi-private areas (i.e. home streets, group halls) that you don't need a key to visit BUT where the players who maintain those areas are able to set some policies, with game mechanics to support that. And finally, I'd like private areas where the owner has a lot of control over who visits and what visitors can and can't do. That's how to get balance.
    Posted 7 months ago by Ginnis Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it is possible to play the game in ways different from others yet still within the Community Guidelines and to make friends doing it. It is important not to rush to judgement on motives of others. There is a difference between "griefing" and just utilizing resources differently from your established habits of play.
    Posted 7 months ago by Mr. Patches Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the last skill released and the one lots of glitchen are still learning is Transcendental Radiation II. reading its description, we can understand that it is, at least, Cosmic. well, what about if i'm at Cebarkul and decide to radiate just to try it? what do you think that this two players will feel about my behavior: one is waiting for the energy drop to die and the other just came from hell. so knowing that some will not be much happy, should i radiate or do something else? or how do you sense where and when it's best to do it? this is just an example of what we can do that has both sides... sometimes even doing something like radiate can unbalance other's fun...
    are you looking for glitch ethic or etiquette?
    and i want to be a free glitch! play nice and be able to go anywhere i want and whenever i want, so too many rules and the glitchen will start some kind of segregation and that doesn't seem very beautiful in Ur. yeah, i also love blue, but i'm not better than anyone else:)
    another thing that crosses my mind right now is the glitchen who drop and the glitchen who pick. if there are no glitchen in the zone to drop, how could the ones that pick have fun? and if there are not glitchen who pick, will those items be there forever?...
    Posted 7 months ago by mira gaia maia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @mira gaia--Outside of the "help mine" there is no positive action which can be seriously negative.
     
    1. TR cannot keep anyone alive unless done en masse.  A better example is causing someone else lag by using group powders or hugging/kissing someone. 

    It is difficult to find an example because there are so few actions which can be perceived as positive and negative.

    2. There is a difference between those who pick one item, some, and everything in sight. Items would not stay up forever, simply more glitch would pick up few items. There is no redeeming value to the community for individuals who take all the items. 

    @Original Poster: there cannot be balance because community accountability is prohibited. 

    Elf can say he likes to steal things however I cannot tell others I saw Elf stealing something (I haven't).

    So, what do you do about your social contract with someone like Elf?  What about those who like to steal and do not say so? Or poison trees on a tree route? Or lie during trades, saying "it's a bug i'll give it to you" and then don't? 

    There are griefers and/or Rookist. There are people who actively work against the community for individual profit or fun knowing that it frustrates others. 

    They easily disturb game play of others and do so with often anonymously and with impunity.

    There is no enforcement so no contract is possible.

    The "Name calling, finger-pointing" happen because there is no other recourse. That is the frustration at being unable to know who to block. Outside of mining i cannot think of game play which can simply be described as "different" and not selfish for which there is name calling on forums.
    Posted 7 months ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ooh neat responses so far, thanks all. :)

    Metra, I was thinking about the no-enforcement aspect as well. I was thinking that possibly the complaints on the forum act as a kind of enforcement (by this I mean, when people complain about a certain action and speak up against it, that is a kind of negative thing towards those who like to do that action) but I'm not sure.

    As far as in-game, I have seen certain circumstances have a bit of a kind of negative backlash against non-majority play. For example parties on public streets may have an expectation as to how things go and people sometimes speak up when things go differently.

    So I guess the thought would be: is people complaining about your (general you) actions a kind of negative enforcement?
    Posted 7 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Actually, technically speaking it is a "positive punishment".  A "negative reinforcement" would be to take away something annoying in reward for ceasing the behavior (which would be the cessation of whining once the stealing stops).  Psychology terms are weird. ;)

    A social contract doesn't technically involve enforcement so much as some kind of reciprocation, or give and take.  It would be something like, "to ensure we all have fun, we tend to be courteous to each other, and we've learned to do that over a period of trial and error."  When we stop being courteous to each other, we stop having fun as a whole, and that's as far as enforcement goes.

    But because fun is subjective and sometimes happens at the expense of others, it's not a very binding social contract.  But!  The Golden Rule is still a pretty good thing to follow most of the time!  Especially since we've just seen how the rules can be changed by the Devs in reaction to enough complaints.  So, using that logic, if you like the game as it is, it's probably best not to aggravate too many people.
    Posted 7 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Watching the local culture evolve is fascinating to me, and the positive contributions made by Glitchen like diaveborn isagirl♥ and Carl Projectorinski make the growing pains hurt that much less. Much gratitude to you (and those like you) both.
    Posted 7 months ago by Aleph Zero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it helps to consider Glitch in terms of the entire online game spectrum.

    There are hundreds of games where "I love to steal" is expected and even assumed.

    One of the things that makes Glitch special is that "I love to steal" is barely tolerated here.

    People who love to steal have hundreds of other places to go. Glitch is unique and precious to us. I think that the specialness of Glitch is worth preserving.
    Posted 7 months ago by Miss Bobbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Carl "if you like the game as it is, it's probably best no to aggravate too many people." 

    That implies putting long term pleasure/profit ahead of an impulse decision...people are great at doing that! owait no...people *suck* at deferred pleasure/profit. 

    Had TS announced a month ago "if stealing of RHK items does not decrease considerably we will implement locks on May 7th, 2012". 

    What do you think each individual who normally walked around picking up RHK items would choose:

    Long-term mild theft or short-term acute theft?
    Posted 7 months ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Much too true, Metra.  But, that's what education, discussion, and civil discourse are about.  Also listening.  These really are the only tools we as not devs have here, as limited as they are.

    But, I think Miss Bobbit has a lock on one other tool we have, and that's simply to be awesome, and awesome in as many numbers as we can be.  People who are not awesome can simply lack popularity, and fade away.

    Aleph Zero, you flatter me terribly!  I'm just following in the footsteps of my own mentors, Rook, Rev. Nightbringer, Voluptua Sneezelips and pretty much everyone else on my friends list!  And poorly, at that.
    Posted 7 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I play Glitch the same way I live my RL with tolerance, compassion, and understanding.

    "Share our similarities, celebrate our differences."
    Posted 7 months ago by Eye Wonder Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No one has seen me steal nuffin' cuz i that gude. 

    And possibly a ninja.  

    Also, and this is most important: your shit you leave outside your house in the public street is worthless to me, and I don't have the time to waste on it.  At all.

    I truly doubt the folks you think are stealing stuff are doing it.

    I bet its someone that you don't even know, rarely see, and can't possibly fathom are creeping around on your streets and peeking in your windows while you watch that dirty otter video with a big bowl of pudding in your lap.

    I have never seen such a group of hyper-sensitive ninnies in 3 decades of computer gaming/being online.  Its virtual goods and not real property and on top of that its stuff that you did not even (usually) buy with in game money, but made the item yourself.

    Some of you are rather quick to over react and wig out over a game.  This is a place where folks come to get away from real life pressures, but you seem to have made it your job or let it take over your life.  Step away from the computer and see it for what it is.  Its a cute side scrolling browser based video game, with goofy details and silly things to do.  Thats it.  If Glitch is your life, then you make me sad.

    Stealing stuff once is annoying, sure, and it takes a special kind of asshole to do it over and over again.  I can think of only a few folks around here that are that fucked up in the brainpan and that self centered and lacking of interpersonal/social skills/life who could get off on giving someone a hard time by repeatedly stealing things/killing animals/killing trees.

    Ill be nice and I wont name any names. But I dont want your shitty cubimals, you greedy self centered egotistical toad. 

    All I really want is to be left alone and for the most part everyone has wised up to this fact.  I might or might not be joking when I said I hated everyone, but mostly what I hate is 98% of you and your company.  The others are ok.  Most of the time I am having a nice time just talking with some nice friends and they seem to understand me, or at least put up with me, so I am content.  

    I have a spice tree outside my house, save me having to use poison and come kill it yourself.  I will plant one in my back yard where only one of you is welcome.  Then, I will hug it and pet it and smooch on it and do things I wont say or admit to doing on here, but will post on GlitchTube and get millions of views.

    Maybe I will dig up my bottle of new poison and kill it myself so then what is on my public street is only rocks, and if you can kill a rock more power to you.

    The streets outside your house should have a choice to keep everyone out, only admitting friends and a lot of this hassle will go away.  Then some of you will have to find something else to complain about.

    Life is way too fucking short to waste time on that.
    Posted 7 months ago by ☣ elf ☣ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can't put up with you. For someone who claims to have 30 years experience in gaming..I've never witnessed anyone bitch so much about everything.  I've yet to see a positive comment, compliment of any kind from you.  I would hold on to those few friends who seem to have taken to you.

    Life is too short to have to read your posts.  I do wish that blocking would block everything including forum posts.

    Hyper sensitive much??
    Posted 7 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ...and Devs...time for a thread lock :O)
    Posted 7 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I bitch about everything? That is very funny.

    You are a special snowflake, uh...flake.

    The funny thing about this place and special flakes is that once you actually have an opinion that is unlike the rest of the sheep, suddenly that individual is bad for having it.  I bet its a true joy to be in your company.

    I am very glad to say I don't know you or will have to waste my time on you.
    Posted 7 months ago by ☣ elf ☣ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I know you..I've been forced to endure your vile on the forums for the pat 6-7 months I've been playing.  You can't waste your time on me.  You already hate 98% of us ALL on here.  So..no, I'm not a special snowflake.  I can tell when someone is a complete...BEEEP.

    It's truly not funny.  Just a matter of fact and actually quite sad.  Every 'wind up' post you make on the forums will be taken as serious by those not able to understand that a)You're having a laugh b)You're just plain insane  or of course there is still option c) you are just a complete BEEP.  I've already come to my decision about you.
    Posted 7 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really liked the three areas Ginnis talked about.  However, in practicing tolerance in the public areas, you have to remember that anything that is allowed, is allowed...ie, even stuff you don't like. I do like the idea of tiered control over personal areas - semi-public street and personal/private home.

    *Passes elf some onion rings (saves ketchup for self)*...sorry dude, you have to bring your own honey mustard.
    Posted 7 months ago by Uniquely Prime Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Deeply sorry for being OT. Elf, will you entertain the notion of a psuedo non committal cyber Glitch friendship? And in the the immortal words of something about marys brother, "he was masturbating"
    Posted 7 months ago by OL. Der Dan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it is impossible to create a stable balance because the game (actually any open-end game) and its community are in constant flow, new players arrive daily and social contracts might change with them. Humans being humans will always get bored, take their RL frustrations into the game or simply enjoy a bit of mischief. 

    Generally (this applies to real life, too!) people benefit from a less stressed, more forgiving mind set. I like the idea of Stoicism (and I think Buddhism teaches a similar thing) that you should free yourself from negative emotions such as anger, envy and jealousy and that you should perceive negative events as a challenge that you can "win" by remaining calm and level-headed. I know this is easier said than done but I found that it's easier in an online environment than e.g. at work because you can choose to step away from the computer, do something else and try to detach from the virtual world. (Coffee machine at work- different story ;-) )

    I know everybody is sick reading this but it IS just a game (even though it is an amazing game and I spent way too much time here). Don't let other people's virtual actions inflict RL pain on you. 

    I think it is important to occasionally reflect why and how you are playing Glitch and if your motives for playing Glitch have changed. If you are experience anxienty or stress, what are the reasons? Is there something you or your friends can do to change your experience? In the last few weeks I suddenly found myself grinding levels like crazy and not enjoying the game like I used to do. After the imagination conversion I forced myself to stop grinding and focus more on the community aspects. This really helped.
    Posted 7 months ago by Candy Warhol Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A comment on "It's just a game"I don't think that "it's just a game" is respectful towards other people's emotions.  We can become emotionally invested in anything.  I completely agree that if you want to have less suffering in your life you should avoid being emotionally invested in video games, objects, people, or anything else, but "it's just a game" will usually be taken as belittling rather than helpful by people who are genuinely upset about things happening the in game.

    It also cuts both ways.  The fact that it is just a game is precisely what it so upsetting about people choosing to take things from other people.  If someone steals a loaf of bread to feed their family we generally look somewhat lightly on that action.  If someone steals a complete luxury item, less so.  When someone steals an item of effectively no worth that might have sentimental value - it is hard not to be a little upset, not as much at the loss as at the reminder that people are really that callous; a fact that unfortunately is very real and not just a game.

    Helping Mining
    I just had to say something about Metra's comment about mining.  I'm not entirely sure what Metra was trying to say, but I think that both mining individually and mining together are defensible actions.  Mining together is better for everyone, but only marginally so.  See: http://mathemaglitch.blogspot.ca/2012/02/make-mine-mining.html and http://mathemaglitch.blogspot.ca/2012/03/more-mining.html for detailed analysis.
    Posted 7 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dan im not adding anyone because im a BEEP HONK MOOOOOOOO, or something.

    Im vile because I dont fit into someones narrow minded world view.

    I think too many folks on the site act like sheep, and are scared to actually do what they want.

    Yes that includes stealing things on peoples streets, but they are not real objects.  As a matter of fact, this place is not real and if you treat it like it is real, then you have way deeper issues that you should spend some time sorting out, away from the computer.  And possibly with a decent shrink.

    OOO ONION RINGS MMMMM *crunch crunch*

    Ok time to go do something creative in the real world.  Everyone have fun, unless you are a bitter self-absorbed weirdo.
    Posted 7 months ago by ☣ elf ☣ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Have fun in the real world Elf.  Let's see how long you last before posting another 'wind up' comment.
    Posted 7 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with elf.  if the rules of the game let you take things or have your things taken, then it isn't stealing.  It is setting things out for people to take, or inviting people in to take your stuff, or whatever, but you aren't being robbed.  I am constantly amazed that people who would never leave their electronics on a park bench overnight in real life or arrange their fine china in their front yard expecting it to stay there think it is reasonable to do similar things in a game.
    Posted 7 months ago by Jewel Stoned Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Regarding "It's just a game": I didn't mean to be disrespectful. I understand that people are emotionally invested in a game but I strongly believe you shouldn't continue playing a game if it makes you feel stressed.

    I played Farmville and other Facebook games for about a year till I realised that I wasn't playing because I enjoyed it but because I felt forced to play. It was basically like being in an abusive relationship with Farmville. I stopped playing immediately and felt much happier since. I'm very careful now (that's why I wrote about assessing why you are playing Glitch) and probably would have stopped playing Glitch if my level grinding obsession didn't stop. I would also stop playing Glitch for at least a month if something happened that upset me IRL.

    I don't think it is possible to create a multi-player game where things like stealing, begging, name-calling etc. don't happen. As long as you are interacting with other humans there will be some who are not as nice as they could be. 

    I'm sorry this post is rather off-topic.

    Edit: Added "It was basically like being in an abusive relationship with Farmville.".
    Posted 7 months ago by Candy Warhol Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I should have found a better way of phrasing that, disrespectful is a more harsh word than I really meant, but I do think that its important to understand that other people have extremely different experiences and viewpoints.  If you've found in your life that you'd rather stop playing games when they stress you out then that's great, but I don't think that can be generalized into advice for all people, and I think you'll probably agree with me that offering that advice to a person who is currently being stressed out by glitch is not very constructive in most cases.

    As for whether or not taking things is stealing, again we're dealing with different expectations people have, and their expectations are not necessarily unreasonable.  If I did leave a cell phone on a park bench over night then I probably shouldn't expect to see it again, but if I don't then it was still stolen (at least in Canada, it may vary from state to state depending on how the law is worded).  If I leave my bike outside a coffee shop and run in to get a coffee without locking it then I am just taking my chances, and maybe the police will roll their eyes at me if I report it stolen, but it was still stolen.  If I leave my barbeque on my porch and someone takes it then they have stolen it, if I leave it at the end of my driveway past the sidewalk and someone takes it then they haven't because social convention says that things left there are being left there in the hope of getting rid of them (again, where I live, would vary from place to place).

    That someone thinks that people should not take things from their street without asking is just a social expectation that matches well with real life.  They also know for a fact that, unlike real life, glitch has absolute surveillance - the staff can decide to find out who took it and prove absolutely that that was the person who took it.  In real life if the actions of that person who took my bike outside the coffee shop were being logged on a second-by-second basis infallibly by the police then they would be arrested and I would get my bike back.

    So when people say things were stolen from them they are expressing frustration at the disrespect being shown to them by others, at the gulf between their social intuition and the way that the social contract is actually enforced in the game, and at their inability to take an action despite there being ready proof of who took their things.

    Part of the community guidelines is that we are supposed to treat each other with respect and give consideration to other people's playstyles.  To say that "stealing" is impossible in the game  is to say that this respect is an entirely one way street from the person who has things taken to the person who takes them.
    Posted 7 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Off topic, but @Carl - I have long been pushing to change the terms to additive/subtractive reinforcement/punishment.  Help me start a revolution in psychology!  :)
    Posted 7 months ago by Zoethor2 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • After I put a new thread on the forums, I was amazed at the replies. Anybody would have thought I hated this game, I still love this game. What I didn't like were the cards, I still don't but things are getting better, thanks TS. I would like them to be dealt at the beginning of each new day, but I am sure there are some people who wait to buy a card, maybe we could have a stick button, if we wanted to save a card.

    As for the nasty remarks about elf, he is a very nice guy, who has helped a lot. There are a lot of people on here, who just keep in their little groups, not bothering to answer or chat to others. Sometimes there are things, I would rather not read, on chat, there is always the block button, if somebody is a real troll. I keep the chat window open so that I can help anybody, who is in trouble.
    Posted 7 months ago by Miss Melody Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I didn't post anything inherently nasty about elf other than his thread posting style. I purely reacted and responded to his posts in this thread, which for the most part are similar to every other post he has made (filled with loathing, contempt and downright lack of regard for any other players views or passions).  That is what made me reply back to his comment.  Not his view, in fact more his lack of view. 

    I personally don't believe he would steal from any street, but the fact that he continuously posts that he does just makes him fall further down in my estimations every time.  I've actually tried defending him in the past and now I'm past it.  He can take the flack himself, he sure knows how to create it.

    I've never met him in game (which is where I spend the majority of my time).  I only ever see him when he is 'trolling' the forums. Everyone in game for the most part I have met has been wonderful and able to have a decent and mature conversation.
    Posted 7 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am curious, Miss Melody, as to why, if Elf is as you say such a nice guy, he posts such vicious and unpleasant things here.

    It cannot be to amuse people, because it could only be amusing to vicious and unpleasant minds which enjoy hurting and upsetting people they don't know purely for the sake of it.  Those minds with even a shred of empathy for others would take into consideration the different values and feelings of everyone and not want to inflict needless pain.

    There are some mature, intelligent and amusing people here, how sad that there are also immature, dull and unpleasant ones too  (although I would be too polite and considerate to include Elf in that number, obviously)

    +1 Arabesque
    Posted 7 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  Zoethor2, I'll try, but being a cartoonist who's specialty is overdone coffee jokes, my skills in that area are limited. ;)
    Posted 7 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is there maybe some way that 

    folks who have encountered problems with gameplay and 
    folks that love everything the way it is and
    folks that light up the forums with sardonic wit 

    could exchange ideas and perspectives, responding thoughtfully after the peaks of our emotional reactions have passed? I don't mean aiming for absolute objectivity or timidity or dullness. I do mean taking a minute or ten to let things cool down and then communicating our difficulties, our praise, and our provocations skillfully and intentionally.
    Posted 7 months ago by Aleph Zero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To me the term "social contract" references a set of theories about why it's in our best interest to have rules for our conduct towards each other and methods for maintaining those rules. There are those who believe that rules are the root of all evil, and if you remove them you get a blissful state of nature where everyone enjoys complete liberty. Social contract theory argues otherwise, e.g. Hobbs who says that in the state of nature where there are no rules and no governing authority to enforce them, life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short."

    Most social contract theorists argue that, even though having certain rules is in everyone's self interest, some kind of social accountability or governing authority is required to keep people from breaking those rules.

    So that is what "social contract" means to me, but I'm not sure how that applies to Glitch.
    Posted 7 months ago by Ginnis Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, Elf's a thief alright. Because he just stole...
    My heart.
    I would say "I lobe you" Elf, but then all of those precious, precious golden rings o' joy would be lost. Lost.
    Posted 7 months ago by N2ZOrtolanaBlue Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @OP: Even without game mechancis this thread ballooned into the "name calling and finger pointing" LOL

    @Elf: I used you as an example because you put yourself out to be one. I didn't read past when you started name calling or the other responses of people arguing with you. But did want to clear that up.

    @Humbabella-thank you for your rl comparison to stealing!  I hadn't found a good way to explain why it was still stealing even if /home was public.

    Full disclosure: irl I don't lock my car door and when I go on vacation my windows are open so the house isn't stuffy. The hassle protecting against thieves irl and ig are greater than the hassle for dealing with them afterwards. 

    Re:"Help mine". My point was for some people having someone follow them around a street to use "help mine" is seen as griefing, a deliberate act to annoy. However, "help mine" can be used by people who genuinely want to help! And they follow others around so they can help, maybe thinking "geez why didn't we just mine the next one over instead of bouncing around".

    So, "help mine" is the only one I can think of that it really is about perspective as to whether it is helpful or not. 

    I suppose aside from lag causing actions. 

    My point was with the help mine is that it is one of very few mechanics which address the social contract discussion. Most other "perspective" game play is people deliberately thwarting others.
    Posted 7 months ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, it did - but I've read a ton of really interesting and thought-provoking stuff too, and I'm so glad that people have responded here :)
    Posted 7 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sandy you make me laff.  Who are you?  Do you have anything else I can steal? I need stuff, cuz im poor and no one likes me.

    I live in a van, down by a river.  A river of melted milk chocolate.  And possibly toxic waste.
    Posted 7 months ago by ☣ elf ☣ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is a sufficient variety of people with different base personalities and ethics within this game that no form of lasting contract is possible.  People who like the calmness and predictability of social contracts will gravitate towards each other, but they will break into factions based on disagreements as to what the specifics of the contract should look like.  People who specifically value having a context like a game where their behavior cannot be controlled or sanctioned beyond what the mechanics allow will always be drawn to behaviors that the emerging contracts attempt to suppress.  Simply calling these latter "griefers" is pointless, because it is an over-simplistic attempt to impose an outside value system on them that they have purposely discarded.

    The discussion above of enforcement and rewards above misses the fact that what is considered rewarding to different gamers is not consistent.  Obviously, there are some personalities on this very thread that find the reinforcement of their status as some kind of edgy outcasts is very rewarding.  So the more that other people block them, or insult them, the happier they become.  

    The only true means of encouraging any kind of community standards is to petition the TS staff to include it in the game mechanics.  We have seen this before in changes to how access to dropped items and crops in the public gardens are managed.  We have recently seen this come into play with the modifications to access for RHK machines.  TS staff digested the suggestions and conversations on the forums, and decided to implement game mechanics that supported a particular position popular in several of the emergent social factions.  So, if you think certain behaviors need to be encouraged or discouraged, the best resort is to put a suggestion in the idea forum, and get other like-minded players to support it.

    These mechanics are also why I'm a largely solo player even within MMORPGs, because finding like-minded  players who really do look out for each other and don't start playing nasty politics is unfortunately rare.  Ugh, a lot of threads lately are bringing out way too much of my cynical side *sigh*
    Posted 7 months ago by KhaKhonsu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You've got an excellent point Mereret.

    I've found, in political online forums at least, that in lieu of a social contract, the best defense for this kind of social dynamic is to develop a strong and flexible sense of humor.  It's really often a good policy for life as well.

    It doesn't need to be all that cynical, either.  I've seen old ladies with a relaxed mirth aimed at life around them.  It probably just takes a lifetime to develop it, is all.
    Posted 7 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink