Topic

Revisiting "Help Mine" topic

I know this enveloped to a huge thread a while back and the pop-up dialog to allow "help mine" was removed, which is fine and all, but I am seeing a huge amount of greed/competition developing (*cough* Ajaya Bliss competition) that is completely against the whole idea of cooperation and teamwork.

Situation:
- Glitch#1 with level 1 mining enters a vacant map say in Salatu with 4 full rocks in it to mine
- Glitch#1 drinks earthshaker and begins mining
- Random Glitch#2 enters map and proceeds to "help" mine the rock
- Now, normally this is fine EXCEPT random Glitch#2 has level IV Mining
- Glitch#2 clears the rock, leaving Glitch#1 hammering at the ground to finish the cycle
- Proceeding to the next rock, the Glitch#1 may get maximum 2 clumps before it is gone
- This action leaves Glitch#1 very upset that this random Glitch#2 is not waiting or "helping", but is instead finishing the rocks and running off.

My friend reported this to me today as her situation and was quite upset over the callous actions of that miner. I then proceeded to the caves (I don't mine much and have level 2 mining) to see for myself. Sure enough, within 15 minutes of mining while waiting to see a ghost, I too was subject to the "help mine" problem and well, felt very cheated.

I'm not a "serious miner" and do not want to be competitive in mining, it's not important to me. If it were, I'd have Mining IV too. That in mind, think about situations such as these before commenting as this has nothing to do with how beneficial it is supposed to be (I agree it is in the long run more beneficial to share mining). However, it seems a bit lopsided.
 
Suggestion 1:
Impose Mining skill level comparison limit to automatically "help", requiring a dialog to allow help. Glitches with skill levels in mining within one level of one another do not require a dialog to "help mine". Anything greater than 1 level requires permission.

Suggestion 2 (per striatic):
The reward when you are helped should be increase by one. If one person helps, you get 2 bonus chunks. if 2 help you, you get 4 bonus chunks. It could also be managed that each and every time you help, the person you help mine gets more chunks.

Suggestion 2A (per striatic): Each and every time someone helps, the person you help mine gets more chunks. If someone is mining slowly because they are at low level, and the helper manages to get three 'helps' in during their single mining action, the player being helped would receive 6 bonus chunks per mining action - assuming the bonus is boosted to 2.  (#helpers x 2chunk=bonus)

Suggestion 3 (Per  Skwid):
This option is "first come, first serve". Mining a node loots the whole node in one go. This could take the current amount of time, or take 5 times longer than mining currently takes, it doesn't really matter as long as spawn times are consistent.

Suggestion 4 (Per  Skwid):
The second one is more in the spirit of Glitch in my opinion, but is much more difficult to implement. (The following is a summary of my interpretation of Skwid's suggestion) Throttle the speed of all players mining together to the same speed as the player with the highest skill level.

Suggestion 5 (Per ICountFrom0):
Make the mining speed of the first miner be the default speed for all others joining to mine. If a level 1 initiates a mining session on a rock, anyone joining to help will mine at the same speed (if lower than their own). This way you will "help" at their speed if lower than your own or mine at your speed if theirs is higher.

Suggestion 6 (Per Biohazard):
When you select the rock, you then choose "Mine!", which sounds a whole lot like it belongs to you. Perhaps this could be changed to excavate or pick (v).

Suggestion 7 (Per Many Many Glitches):
Change "help mine" to help the OTHER person mine their rock, resulting in the helper receiving less rock chunks than the person they are helping (or none at all).

Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • "It would only "nearly double" my output if the single helper had the same mining skill as me.  If they had a higher skill it would come nowhere near doubling my output."

    if it was 5, it would double it. the travel time between rocks would be undeniably trivial at that point, even if you only got one mining action per rock. you'd get 13 chunks per mining action instead of 8. assuming the rock was totally mined out from under you by your single helper [unlikely], you'd still be way ahead in terms of energy at time.

    what then?
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic wrote: it seems that there will always be a segment of the population that, having touched a rock, get very touchy themselves. even if undeniably beneficial extra chunks are granted to them, the fact that they don't get to mine "their" rock entirely from tip to nub is going to disturb them.

    They probably come from "hardcore" MMOs. I felt the same way when I first started learning Mining. Honestly, what were discussing here really only pertains to Ilmenskie. If you're above ground there really isn't much competition for mining and you can go it alone all you want. Competition in Ilmenskie is almost a 24/7 annoyance though (I can usually get a couple hours in the wee hours of the morning before the Eastern Time peeps wake up to myself down there). I'm worried that if they open the game up as it is there will be no place to hide from this problem.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • how about 10? what if it was 10 bonus chunks?
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I don't think that lower skill miners should be given the same abilities of higher skill miners. Getting to Mining 3 is a fairly rapid affair, and Mining 4 takes less than a day, so we're discussing a grievance of unskilled players who want the skills of the higher skill players who have put the time in to learn the skill. I'm not saying that it won't be a problem, but you can't expect to be able to mine as efficiently as a Miner 4 when you're only Mining 1-3."

    I don't think so either and that is not what this is about.  No one has suggested that lower skill level miners be given the skills of higher level miners (well, ok there is one suggestion, but I don't support it.)  This is about lower level players getting the shaft so to speak, and trying to find a solution that works for everyone.  "Deal with it."  Is not a solution.  And as Splendora has expressed very well, it is not all about mechanics and efficiency, but also about perception and experience.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Man, we haven't even started discussing chunks per step taken. I mean, there's a HUGE problem with "Help Mining" when you start discussing that issue! ;-)
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Competition in Ilmenskie is almost a 24/7 annoyance though (I can usually get a couple hours in the wee hours of the morning before the Eastern Time peeps wake up to myself down there)."

    hm. i don't feel like anyone is competing with me. honestly i almost never jump in on another player's rock. maybe once or twice per 5 day test session. still, if someone else is mining a rock i'd like, i'm never bothered by it. nor if a room is totally cleared of rock, which can happen, although rarely.

    that's certainly a personality thing, the feeling that other people out there mining are depriving you of potential resources.

    i suppose my line of thinking is that those resources were never potentially mine in the first place, because other people need to mine too.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "if it was 5, it would double it. the travel time between rocks would be undeniably trivial at that point, even if you only got one mining action per rock. you'd get 13 chunks per mining action instead of 8. assuming the rock was totally mined out from under you by your single helper [unlikely], you'd still be way ahead in terms of energy at time.

    If I agreed with your "mining efficiency and energy are the the only measures that matter" argument, this would work for me.  As you know, I do not. This does not mean that I think the rock belongs to me.  And by the way, 13 is not double 8. 

    If you don't like the idea of making "help mine" actually help the person (supposedly) being helped and you don't like the idea of limiting the number of "helpers" to one, then what about making it so that only miners of the same level can help one another?  Does this harm anyone?
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lovintnt wrote: (well, ok there is one suggestion, but I don't support it.)
    lol it's my suggestion (and I'm backing it less and less over time, despite my thinking it was awesome earlier).

    lovintnt wrote: "Deal with it."  Is not a solution.
    No, it's not, but I don't think anyone really has to deal with it. I didn't even go down into Ilmenskie until I had Mining 4, and that was because I was working on my street-travelling achievement out of boredom and desire to see the world. I found 3 streets that were close together and that I could mine out with an Earthshaker or two and then I just made a circuits around those three streets to make all the currants I needed to buy my home. I've since found a couple more good circuits outside of Ilmenskie. They aren't as profitable as the ones in Ilm, since metal and dullite are so underpriced, but they're clear of competition.

    I'm not going to say that there isn't a problem, because there is. But I think there have been some valid solutions proposed here that would go a long way toward eliminating the problem entirely.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "This is about lower level players getting the shaft so to speak"

    no one is getting "the shaft". again, worst case scenario, you lose a bit of time, and you gain a bit of rock.

    even if that trade is not entirely in the lower level miner's interest, that's hardly "the shaft".

    and it certainly isn't "the shaft" compared to the previous situation, where you'd not get any bonus chunks whatsoever.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Even though I prefer to mine alone I'll often go help another player mine by giving their rock one wack before I go and find my own.  I don't stay to mine the whole rock.  How much more bonus do you get by staying together to mine the whole rock?  I've never really taken note.    I generally mine whole rocks when I mine alone (so they will regenerate) which leaves me with a a slot filled with a couple of chunks.  Helping others by giving their rocks one or two wacks and then leaving helps me fill up the slot without feeling guilty about leaving a half finished rock behind when my backpack slot hits 50
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "it seems that there will always be a segment of the population that, having touched a rock, get very touchy themselves. even if undeniably beneficial extra chunks are granted to them, the fact that they don't get to mine "their" rock entirely from tip to nub is going to disturb them."

    And it seems there will always be a segment of the population that, having reached a higher skill level feels it is their right to have everything, stomping on those who have not yet reached that level.  Even when they know that they mine faster and more efficiently than those with a lower level they will choose to "help" the other person rather than mining the rock next to them that is not being mined. 
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't read every post in this thread...so I apologize for my lack of information.

    Is there any lower skilled minner in this thread who has complained about a higher-level miner causing them problems??

    Anyone?
    Posted 15 months ago by MeherMan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • MeherMan wrote: I haven't read every post in this thread

    Sorry, were you going to ask a question? I didn't bother to read your whole post.

    (BTW, there are at least 2)
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "How much more bonus do you get by staying together to mine the whole rock?"

    one per mining action. i did the math a long time ago, but when you go across 2 rocks versus 2 players and trade helping i believe you each get 5 additional chunks using the same amount of time and energy compared to splitting up.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic wrote: 5 additional chunks using the same amount of time and energy

    So it's about 10% right now. Compared to the increased travel time between nodes for the same quantity of chunks... just doesn't seem high enough.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "And it seems there will always be a segment of the population that, having reached a higher skill level feels it is their right to have everything, stomping on those who have not yet reached that level.  Even when they know that they mine faster and more efficiently than those with a lower level they will choose to "help" the other person rather than mining the rock next to them that is not being mined."

    what's so funny is that while you complain about this, i rarely ever actually do it because i'm scared of someone flipping out on me .. but then in the few times i actually do it, i get thanked.

    i'm not stumping on anybody, and this has nothing to do with level.

    and quit putting "help" in quotations. it is like you're trying to convince yourself it isn't actually helping the other person just because you don't feel it helps you.

    the devs labeled it "help" for a reason, and have a quest explaining how it is helpful for a reason. it IS helpful. you obviously don't feel it is helpful *to you*, but to create the image that every single time a higher level miner shares a rock with a lower level miner that it is "stomping" on them is ludicrous. simply ludicrous.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But I must say c0mad0r is spot on about the intense feeling of competition at Ajaya Bliss.  I've mined there only a few times but I sensed the tension right away.    The second time I tp'd to a spot where 3 or 4 other players were working together mining every rock as it regenerated.   I had reasonably high level mining skills but it still felt kind of uncomfortable to have three people appear to mine out a rock I had just started on.  I shrugged and figured that they were there first and that was how they were playing so I left for a less busy place. I suppose if I had been there first I would have been  bothered by the others but they were there first so I wasn't too bothered.   It would be nice to be able to tell from the map how many other people are in a place before you tp there.    

    Anyway, I know now that the mood in Ajaya Bliss is what it is, so that's cool, I just stay away from there.  I don't know if it needs to change.   I actually kind of like the idea that some places are evolving to attract players with different sorts of priorities.  
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "So it's about 10% right now. Compared to the increased travel time between nodes for the same quantity of chunks... just doesn't seem high enough."

    you need to factor in everything.

    there is always travel time moving from rocks, even mining solo. you can't attribute every single moment of travel to shared mining.

    i think you're putting too much emphasis on travel time and speed.

    there are energy savings, at least when you're using food, that are unquestionable. with enough helpers, you get even more efficient than with earthshakers even with vendor food. like if you are in ajaya, earthshakers don't work but you're still going to be ahead of earthshakers in terms of energy cost.

    i also went back to when this first came out and when i actually measured the results ..

    "Scenario 1] both players split up and mine separately. Each player ends up with around 50 chunks.
    Scenario 2] both players help each other mine one rock at a time. With bonuses, each player gets around 30 chunks per rock and 60 chunks overall."


    i want to verify that, but if true, that's 20% improvement, not 10%.

    also, i've never fully understood this, but when the devs brought out coop they talked A LOT about nub bonus, in ways i never understood. Travinara tried to explain it to me like this..

    "stri - I think he's referring to the 'final action'. When mining cooperatively, each player receives rock chunks with their last action. I have managed to button mash fast enough to start 'helping mine' and get the indicator going... but the rock 'ran out' during the process. Before you'd be charged the energy and get the xp, now the indicator just goes away. You are not charged the energy, so you really only lose a few seconds.
    Theoretically... with cooperative mining the 'nub' could yield 10 rock chunks and a 'reward' each, plus the bonus chunk for the help.. pushing the rock 'potential' from a flat 50 to a dynamic 50-70ish. Still haven't seen what happens when you put 30 people on a single rock, or 50. From a solo perspective, it means that final 'nub' is worth up to 10 chunks, pushing the initial rock 'capacity' to 59 from a flat 50. You never quite know how much is left in that nub now, which makes it easier to stay and finish it off, and you're no longer wasting the time or energy on 1-2 rock chunks."
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Treesa .. they weren't competing, they were helping each other.

    maybe you thought the mood was competitive, but that isn't what "the mood" actually is.

    there's a knee-jerk feeling that people get, since multiple people sharing something typically implies competition, because of, you know, physics.

    but Glitch is magical and in the case of Ajaya, the more "competitive" it gets, the more rocks everyone ends up with. everyone. if there are no losers, i'm not sure how to think of it as competitive.

    it's unnatural, in the sense that it isn't like the real world, but Glitch works best if you leave real world assumptions at the door, since the physics of the Glitchiverse are rather different.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I'm not going to say that there isn't a problem, because there is. But I think there have been some valid solutions proposed here that would go a long way toward eliminating the problem entirely."

    I absolutely agree Skwid.  There seem to be only a few people who don't believe there is a problem and who would like to maintain the status quo.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic - As previously mentioned you've done a lot of work on this subject. Have you added this to any of the wikkis? If not, would you? Or at least host a page on it?
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "what's so funny is that while you complain about this, i rarely ever actually do it because i'm scared of someone flipping out on me .. but then in the few times i actually do it, i get thanked.

    i'm not stumping on anybody, and this has nothing to do with level.

    Then I'm not talking about you.  But there are others who do it as a matter of habit.

    "and quit putting "help" in quotations. it is like you're trying to convince yourself it isn't actually helping the other person just because you don't feel it helps you.

    the devs labeled it "help" for a reason, and have a quest explaining how it is helpful for a reason. it IS helpful. you obviously don't feel it is helpful *to you*, but to create the image that every single time a higher level miner shares a rock with a lower level miner that it is "stomping" on them is ludicrous. simply ludicrous."

    I will continue to put "help" in quotations because it is debatable.  Just because you believe it is "helpful" does not mean that I do.  And you have no right whatsoever to tell me how to express my opinions.  Focusing on my use of quotations is just an indication that you are frustrated by the fact that I will not allow myself to be bullied by your circular arguments.

     I notice that you still have not responded to my suggestion about people only being able to help miners with the same skill level.  I assume this means that you don't have a reason to dislike it, so you are just going to ignore it. 
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "but Glitch is magical and in the case of Ajaya, the more "competitive" it gets, the more rocks everyone ends up with. everyone. if there are no losers, i'm not sure how to think of it as competitive."

    Not true.  While it may not be competitive (I've certainly never thought of it as such.)  The more people are in there, the fewer rocks each individual ends up with overall, regardless of the bonus chunks per action.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Not true.  While it may not be competitive (I've certainly never thought of it as such.)  The more people are in there, the fewer rocks each individual ends up with overall, regardless of the bonus chunks per action."

    whaaa .. dude. i'm sorry. you say you don't even mine there. you can't just assert that as being true. it isn't true. just, mechanically is not true.

    the only way you end up with fewer is if you knee-jerk and bail out early, before realizing the energy saving effects.

    if what you said was true, nobody would ever mine there.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "whaaa .. dude. i'm sorry. you say you don't even mine there. you can't just assert that as being true. it isn't true. just, mechanically is not true."

    Well, I see you've exhausted all of your intelligent arguments and will likely be calling me names again very soon.  I'll check back in tomorrow to see if you've managed to respond to my suggestion.

    And the only way it's "mechanically true" is if one stays in there longer and longer for each person that is there.  Otherwise all that "help" just leads to less and less rock overall, since there are more people "helping" to mine it.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @stri:  maybe competitive isn't the word I was looking for, maybe it just felt more intense and acquisitive.  I got that feeling the first time I mined there,  it was just reinforced the second time when I landed in a room with a group working together.   I wasn't sure how to proceed.  I'd ever only helped one person before.  Was three or four the limit to how many would work together in a group?  I wasn't sure.   

    "maybe you thought the mood was competitive, but that isn't what "the mood" actually is."

    nah, the mood was the feeling I felt.  :)   
     I've felt it before lots when playing secondlife and visiting all the sims with a wide range of moods.  Maybe competitive wasn't the right word but the vibes were somewhat different from what they are in different places in Ur.

    Anyway, i don't have a problem with Ajaya Bliss having a certain "work oriented"  vibe.   I'd be more bothered by having different "moods" in different neighborhoods.  One of the reasons I'm not big on getting a house or moving to any particular neighborhood.   I can see cliques developing around that...and people having expectations about who and what their neighbors are about.  
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wander through the game. Other players will jump up to take quoins that you were about to try to get. Other players will snatch a jelly sac you were about to scoop. Other players will buy a house you planned on buying. Other players will scrape a barnacle before you could. Should all these things be locked too? Made more fair so that higher level players don't *steal* precious resources from lower level players?

    There is never going to be complete equity and I don't think there should be. That's part of being a higher level, learning the skills, investing in the game. I agree it should be fun and engaging regardless of level but lower level players shouldn't assume that they should get the same benefits as higher level players. 

    BTW - Mine with me if you wish. I won't be offended.  But if I set a gem at my feet while rearranging my bags and you walk off with THAT will offend me.
    Posted 15 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Treesa - I've always found Ajaya Bliss to be just another street/area with rocks worth mining. I also spent tons of time in Second Life, and there, as here, I find peeps pretty cool, and I move throughout, in and out and around the cliques.

    Just another community metaphor - and for me the key is how I roll with it.
    Posted 15 months ago by MeherMan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "There is never going to be complete equity and I don't think there should be. That's part of being a higher level, learning the skills, investing in the game. I agree it should be fun and engaging regardless of level but lower level players shouldn't assume that they should get the same benefits as higher level players."

    Thank you g33kgurrl!  That's what I have been trying to say this whole time!
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "this will be much less of an issue once the game opens up for longer and a greater percentage of players will have maxed their mining skill."

    I'm inclined to think it will be more of a problem.  With a lot of new people joining all the time you don't want a game where a lot of people quit at the lower levels.   When you first start playing a game like this you need to feel that you are welcome and able to move up.   You don't want to run up against some perceived rudeness or overly complicated expectations from other players.  I don't get hooked on a game unless its fairly easy to get around at first.   
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But of course I agree with Meherman  in that whether you enjoy the game as an individual all depends on how you roll with it.   Having said that, there  are  reasons why secondlife won't be around much longer: too difficult for new players to find their way around (and other issues with overpricing and driving creative people off to Open Sim)
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic wrote: whaaa .. dude. i'm sorry. you say you don't even mine there. you can't just assert that as being true. it isn't true. just, mechanically is not true.
    A fairly immature response, that is also false. There are 15 Sparkly rocks in Ajaya Bliss. Let's say that the respawn time is ≈5 minutes (might be a little more or less in actuality, haven't timed it but for the sake of this exercise it doesn't much matter). A mining Action takes 3 seconds. Assume 10 chunks per action, and 5 actions per rock. 50 chunks per rock without modifiers. 

    Scenario 1: 5 miners 
    All 5 miners work together mining 1 node at a time. Each miner gets a single action on the rock and receives 11-12 chunks per action (10 plus 1-2 bonus chunks for "helping"). It takes 3 seconds to clear an entire rock since all 5 actions on the rock are completed at the same time and one action takes three seconds. The group then moves on to another rock, clears it in 3 seconds, and repeats that for all 15 rocks. 

    (15*11+15*12)/2= 172.5 chunks each. 15*(3+2)= 75 seconds (+2 for travel time between rocks). 

    All of Ajaya Bliss is cleared in 1 minute and 15 seconds and each player gets 172.5 chunks. The players can either leave now and teleport back in (expensive teleportation energy cost, or token for REAL money), or stay and wait for the respawn which will take another 3 minutes and 45 seconds. After one hour the 5 players will have mined a grand total of 2070 chunks. 

    Scenario 2: 2 players 
    Same stipulations as Scenario 1. Each miner will get 3 actions on each rock (one person will mine air for a "free" action), which makes for 45 chunks per rock each. The pair take longer to clear the whole of Ajaya Bliss since 3 actions are required, at 9 seconds per rock, for each rock: 

    15(11*3+12*3)/2 = 517.5 chunks each. 15*(9+2)= 165 seconds or 2 minute and 45 seconds. 

    Per hour that comes to a grand total of 517.5*12= 6210 chunks. 

    Scenario 3: Single Player (Math Only) 
    50/rock, 15s/rock

    50*15= 750 chunks. 15*(15+2)= 255 seconds or 4 minutes and 15 seconds. 

    750*12=9000 chunks/hr

    Even if a 5 man team managed to get FOUR HITS per rock they would still be 720 chunks behind a solo miner. There is no way that this is somehow "helping" unless you limit yourself to energy efficiency, at which point you would only want 1 person helping you ever.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Skwid, I just did the math too very similarly to yours but found that the most effective is scenario 2, with scenario 1 being next followed up last by scenario 3.  Instead of based on chunks/hour I based it on a single swipe of Ajaya Bliss (since we don't know respawn time it's inaccurate to do anything more than a single clearing of Ajaya Bliss) and I calculated the percentage of rock/time spent.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The respawn time is absolutely crucial to determining your ₡/min or hour returns. If you have to stand around, that's time wasted. The respawn timer is somewhere around 4-5 minutes, unless it varies from street to street. I know this because I have cleared streets solo and had time to spare for meditating/repairing.

    If you could continuously farm with 2 people that would be perfect, pop Earthshakers and go to town. 3+ people wouldn't be as profitable, but it would be fair for everyone involved, and solo mining would be the worst. The thing is that there isn't a single street where this is possible.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It could be different based on respawn times, but without an accurate time the math would be flawed.  Plus, a single player cannot clear Ajaya Bliss completely even with full mining and nonstop mining.  The closest I've gotten is a little under half the rocks at a given time
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "And the only way it's "mechanically true" is if one stays in there longer and longer for each person that is there."

    ok first of all thank you for admitting it is mechanically true if you hang around.

    secondly, yes, there *is* a threshold of people at which point mining in Ajaya no longer improves, not in the sense that it is a bad idea to be there - but that it is a bad idea to stay there.

    there is *also* a threshold of people before which the more people, the better for everyone.

    when you are alone in Ajaya, the situation is at its least efficient. let's just say there are 10 rocks in there [there's actually 15].

    you mine the 10 and end up with 500 chunks .. and then you do it again.

    ok, now you have a friend. in the same amount of time/energy you communally mine 20 and end up with 600 each .. and then you do it again.

    ok now you have three friends. you communally mine 40 in the same time/energy and you end up with 600+ [nub effects] each, and then you do it again.

    ok, now you have seven friends. you communally mine 40 in half the time, using half the energy and you end up with 300+ [nub effects] each but you have to wait to do it again because you need to wait for re-spawn.

    somewhere between 4 and 8 miners is a sweet spot. at 4, your individual or mining team isn't mining the 10 rocks a fast as they can grow back, reducing the overall output of the street.

    everyone who joins the party gets 10 to 20% more chunks than they otherwise would. everyone is helping each other.

    at 8, the team is mining the rocks faster than they re-spawn. at this point it would be smarter for the team to leave Ajaya as a group and continue mining with the 20% surplus, but that never happens.

    if the team is mining rocks more quickly than they respawn, that's fine up to a point, since if you were mining sparkly elsewhere there are increased travel penalties that exceed the re-spawn wait.

    but up to that point, the more the merrier.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic (or anyone else who knows the answer):

    I don't understand your answer to my question about how much more bonus you get by staying together to mine the rock vs just giving it a wack and moving on.  You said:
    "one per mining action. i did the math a long time ago, but when you go across 2 rocks versus 2 players and trade helping i believe you each get 5 additional chunks using the same amount of time and energy compared to splitting up."

    As I said, I generally avoid the crowded mining areas and have a few streets I mine on.  If someone else is there I just give their rock a wack on my way to finding a rock of my own.  Sort of a "high five"  or way of saying hello.   Sometimes when the person finishes they come and wack my rock.  Then we go find our own rocks and carry on.   It suits me, and I've always had more rock in my bags then I know what to do with.  Is this what you meant when you said  "go across 2 rocks"?  
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • An action is when you select "Mine". There are usually 5 or more actions per rock, since each action may not give you the 10 you would need to reach 50 (every rock has 50 chunks) in 5 actions.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • New Calculations with 3 minute (a single Earthshaker) respawn timer:

    Situation 1: 5 players
    172.5*20= 3450 chunks/hr.

    Situation 2: 2 players
    517.5*20= 10,350 chunks/hr.

    Situation 3: Single Player
    New Math: A single player can only clear 12 rocks in three minutes (15 seconds per rock)
    12(11*3+12*3)/2= 414 chunks per respawn.
    414*20= 8280 chunks/hr.

    At a three minute timer (there is no way Ajaya respawns that quickly, absolutely no way it respawns faster than a single earthshaker) two players is very efficient, but for every second above three minutes the single player steadily increases their haul, while the two players are rapidly losing chunks/hr. Five players is simply a stupid idea for mining anywhere, unless of course they're all passing you the ore, then it's profit heaven!

    If the respawn time is 3 minutes and 45 seconds (15 seconds per rock times 15 rocks) or longer a single player will be the most efficient way to farm.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • skwid, i agree with you in that you are correct that after a certain point mining with more people becomes inefficient.

    from experience i've found that if you are mining in Ajaya with just another player, the re-spawn time is shorter than the time it takes to mine. if you are mining with two people, it is about even. if you are mining with three other people, you have to wait on the respawn, but less wait than your average walk between sparklies, including street loads, while solo. anyway, you can certainly continually mine there with 2 players.

    anyway .. i said way way up there that the benefit of Ajaya is not speed, but energy efficiency, and while i thank you for considering chunks per hour [which is important] it's also sort of beside the point.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To me, chunks per hour is the entire point. Chunk=money=profit. On earthshakers with Mining 4 it's the most efficient way to earn currants. I'm not going to waste my time filling up my bags with food to go mining, it's tedious, wastes space, and takes away time I could be spending mining. This is especially true come Monday, when getting energy is going to be such a royal pain in the butt, and there will be no food, and no earthshakers available on auction.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmm. I found I tend to take too much food with me mining. Barely used what I had. And after a while I stopped even using Earthshakers all that much. I hated the extra overhead on my profit.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "...and there will be no food, and no earthshakers available on auction."

    oh dear, that sounds a little frightening. :D

    Seriously, I never bought into the obsession with sparkly.  When I started up mining late in August the auction price of dullite was higher  than that of  sparkly.  It also sold really fast.   Supply and demand and all that... 
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "If the respawn time is 3 minutes and 45 seconds (15 seconds per rock times 15 rocks) or longer a single player will be the most efficient way to farm."

    i think you're being slightly optimistic about 15 seconds per rock. the time to get from one rock to the next rock is minimal, but not inconsequential. even the button mashing adds a second. the timing is probably more like 20 on average, which would allow for a 5 minute respawn time. it could be 18 seconds, which would allow for 4.5. or 16 which would allow for 4.

    "An action is when you select "Mine". There are usually 5 or more actions per rock, since each action may not give you the 10 you would need to reach 50 (every rock has 50 chunks) in 5 actions."

    what about trad's comment, quoted earlier, that due to nub effect a communally mined rock has between 50 and 70?
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Treesa - Where's that quote from? Not a dev I hope!
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Folkian:  http://beta.glitch.com/forum/general/7084/#reply-75902
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm sure some of the devs who are in the game now will put up some earthshakers for auction next week.   

    Hard to say what they'll be asking for them.
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "This is especially true come Monday, when getting energy is going to be such a royal pain in the butt, and there will be no food, and no earthshakers available on auction."

    there's Helga, Produce vendors, Meal Vendor.

    Meal vendor is right there in the caverns and can be included in circuits. Someone might also just stand beside Helga and buy Earthshakers to auction with reasonable markup if demand is that high.

    Energy won't be nearly as efficient as if people are making enough stuff to auction at or below vendor value, but i don't think it'll be a pain in the butt to get.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As a player that has never used the auctions for anything unless I was being lazy (ie: can someone auction a tree poison cause I'm really far from a Gardening Vendor and can't teleport), I don't think it will be hard at all as a bunch of noobs to get energy.  I didn't die until I was well over level 10 and my first death was intentional!  
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks, @Treesa. Out of context that really sounded ominous! New players won't know about Helga, Produce vendors or the the Meal Vendor, but that IS a good solution (but expensive).
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink