Topic

Qualm with the Game Economy

Players make things and sell things to the NPC for money. Almost everyone I talk to has said this. They sell farm goods to NPCs. They sell Ore to NPCs. I do it too. Some players sell things at auction because they can make more money than at the NPC. This makes sense. If by some way you acquired a 'finished product' from the game... it makes more sense to try to make more than what the NPC would offer at Auction. Things like Gems and Drinks spring to mind. Some players sell Raw materials instead of NPCing them though, and they do it at outrageous prices. But, Players buy them. Why?

Almost always, the Raw materials, spice, cherries, bubbles, beans, meat... you're almost always better-off selling your raw materials to someone rather than making finished products to sell. The killer for me were cherries. It takes 34 cherries to make a pungent sunrise. The NPC sells them for 194. Cherries sell on auction for 10 each. That means if I were to buy cherries from auction and turn them into sunrises, just cherry costs (not energy and time and fees) are 340. Yet, I can't sell them for that because an NPC sells them for a price that assumes cherries are worth about 1 currant.

This is accross the board in regards to 'things that can't be bought' by NPCs. That is, if it can't be bought at an NPC, its price is inflated at Auction. I personally suggest a simple fix.

My qualm is that NPCs should *never* sell finished products...

They should simply not do it. If they don't, then we can have the cost of things fluctuate based on the supply and demand of materials. That only makes sense. As-is, things are governed by convenience. The only reason someone *might* buy anything at auction? Too lazy to get it. *I don't want to go to Ix, so I'll pay 400 for a sunrise. I don't want to harvest cherries, so I'll pay 2500* Whatever.

Also, *why* are people buying cherries for 10 each? What are you Possibly making with them to justify the expense? Whatever you are making, you can probably get cheaper elsewhere. Heck... buy the finished drinks on auction... buy them from the liquor NPC. Do not buy cherries for 10 each. There is no good reason to do so. (Laziness is merely a reason. It's not a good reason.)

Ok... Thanks.

Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

Previous 1 2
  • I'm a harvester and a seller. My stacks of goods tend to sell quickest when there are projects on that require ingredients. When a project opens there's a very limited time to get everything in there, especially if you're trying to get a top place on the project. It is not possible to go off harvesting or shopping around when you're competing with others, so buying stuff off auctions is a fast (depending on how quick the frogs are going) solution.  It's not being lazy, it's being fast really.  If a project is asking for a bunch of a certain type of fruit, my stacks of cherries sell like hot cakes.  If I was into projects, I'd keep my stacks of fruit and use them myself, but I don't have the patience to find and then hang around projects like some do. So they do the hanging around and waiting patiently, I do the walking around the worlds and harvesting. I do the selling, they do the buying. They're happy (hopefully). I'm happy (definitely). 
    Posted 17 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well...... I rarely buy cherries from auction. I pick them off trees. But it's kinda hard to do that when the game's closed. That said, some people have oodles of cash but no time. What better solution than to buy?
    Posted 17 months ago by KitkatCat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But I got to have them cherries !!!!!!!!  If I want to pay 10 currants each that is my prerogative. Glitch is a free world and not necessarily governed by reason and Aristotelean economists.
    Posted 17 months ago by napabeth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Right Kitkatcat. No one should buy them for the auction price. I pick my own as well. But it's disheartening to me that if I make something from the cherries, it's a dumb thing to do because I may as well just sell the cherries I pick.

    Ebil, I see. But, that's still fine because that's supply-demand. All I'm saying is that as long as the game has NPCs selling things for a set price, it 'breaks' the game because 'finished products' should reflect supply-demand. With an NPC selling it, he doesn't care at all that auction price of cherries is 10 each. He 'thinks' they're 1 each, and sells his wares for a fixed price. In-game economies don't work like that. Nothing is fixed.

    It's ok for NPCs to sell some raw materials. The player-created (harvested, mined, whatever) ones will be the main thing that affects the price of finished products. NPC-bought materials affect the price, but not in a profound way. They're just easily calculated overhead. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT!!!!!!!!!
    I meant, if you wanna buy expensive stuff, buy it! Doesn't harm anyone!
    PS: You DO know that Pungent Sunrises are a heck of a lot more useful than cherries, right? I use them to speed up my learning. And they ARE an absolute pain in the ass to make, with the amount of cherries you need and the amount of steps.
    Posted 17 months ago by KitkatCat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, but why not just buy them from the liquor vendor for 194? Why would I make them when I can sell cherries for 10 each at auction? It would be dumb to make them. Heck, I could sell the cherries, and buy pungent sunrises. It would be smarter.
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's true that something so useful and high in demand shouldn't be so..... cheap. Someone should tell Helga to raise her prices. Or just make her a shambling nutso in Ix.
    Posted 17 months ago by KitkatCat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I buy cherries and things when I need them to advance a level in blending and I can't be bothered harvesting, especially if I've harvested and used all the ones nearby. It's a time saver, especially for people who are at low levels and don't get much from each harvest.
    Posted 17 months ago by Tanga Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Exactly.

    EDIT: Tanga, so laziness. My worst fears are coming true.

    EDIT: Tanga, get Gardening III. 24 cherries per tree.
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 16 hours of learning G3.
    Posted 17 months ago by KitkatCat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree, Mr Dawgg, this economy is fraught with problems.  I've been griping about auctions and the high prices set for some commodities, including cherries, beans, gas and bubbles for some time now.  Interestingly, if I bring it up in-game, people agree with me.  When I brought it up on the Forum (a topic I cannot find now - can we please be able to tag or categorize topics?), I was roundly put down by so many players proclaiming how great the free market is.  Glitch doesn't have a truly free market, so some prices are skewed way beyond what is reasonable and (clearly) much of this stuff is bought up by people who either don't know any better or who do but who have excess currants to buy the stuff.  In both instances, lower level players (the ones who need this stuff the most to survive or to get going) get screwed.

    Cherries are worth 1 currant.  Paying 10 currants/ea for them is ludicrous since nothing you make with them will ever be valued at whatever price to need to set to justify the cost.

    This wasn't always the case with cherries.  They were once never to be found in bulk on auction, and when they were found, they were - at the most - 3 currants/ea.  Then I think a confluence of things happened:
    -- The badlands projects started asking for very high quantities of cherries and the things made from them, in an area where you got kicked out by the game after a few minutes, limiting how much time you could spend there.
    -- Enough people leveled up to G3 to be able to get major harvests from trees to be able to collect/auction cherries in bulk units of 250.
    -- The auction sniper was released by Ping, which had the unfortunate psychological effect of people playing the auctions to see where the snipers had set their prices and then adjusted the price above that level, instead of correcting the market by allowing you to find cheaply available goods.  

    For raw materials, which in the real world are always worth less than whatever finished products are available, this makes no sense at all. Except that in Glitch, you cannot buy cherries from a vendor but you can buy just about everything else you need.  Cooking/blending is also extremely undervalued in the game, so few people are going to buy a finished product for far more than the gain in energy.

    Sure, you could raise prices on finished products or just stop selling them at vendors, but - again - I think this screws the game for lower level players.  Once you're up above 30 or 40, you're golden.  I'm in the mid-50s and realized that I basically don't ever need to eat food anymore to get through a Glitch day, unless I'm contributing to a project or trying to up my XP via donating to shrines.

    People can excuse the auctions by saying, 'well, that's supply/demand' or 'that's capitalism', but it's broken.  It's the worst part of state-controlled price controls (this is tied to the energy gained from the item and the price floors set by vendors) combined with the worst excesses of greed.  That's not free-market capitalism.  Moreso, it's just not good for the overall community because of the way in which player behavior is shaped.

    Here are two shaping examples:
    -- New players see the prices that cherries go for on auction (10c/ea) and assume that is their actual value despite what the fine print (and I do mean tiny) says on the info card/page.  Given that new players are not likely to have G3 and get small harvests, these prices appear to make sense to them, so they carry those inflated costs with them through their lifetime of play and -- at some point -- themselves see auctions as the way to get rich quick, so throw the stuff up there themselves, perpetuating the myth.

    -- Some players will just stop using auctions.  Given my values, I'm less and less likely to buy from auctions, because I don't want to reward players for selling things at inflated prices.  I'll find another way to get what I need or I'll just stop needing it.  Also, I'll stop putting things on auctions in an attempt to get better priced things into circulation because the last few times I did, someone just snatched it all up to resell at 10x the value of the item. These choices narrow my avenues of play.  The more I cannot play the way I like to play, the less likely I will play.

    There are other ways auctions shape behavior, but these are of the most concern to me.  These concerns are one of the reasons I hesitated at Stoot's ideas for food withering, because it throws cooking even more out of balance than it currently is, leaving this giant elephant in the room of how poorly constructed the actual economy is as far as food is concerned.  Perhaps withering might help fix the economy, without testing, it cannot be known.

    Could vendors just stop selling finished products and we'll let supply/demand dictate how much an item costs?  Sure, that seems like the obvious choice, but it's got its problems.  One problem is that food = energy.  At present, one unit of energy is valued at one currant.  A piece of meat is valued at 10 currants and gives you 10 energy.  A cherry is valued at 1 currant and gives you 1 energy.  An awesome stew is valued at 200 currants and gives you 200 energy.  A cabbage is worth 7 currants and gives you 7 energy.

    So, if you stop selling this stuff at vendors, all finished products are going to see huge inflation because people will finally be able to rook others on every food product, not just the ones not sold at vendors.  But with this inflation comes a giant decrease in energy gained per currant spent.  This impacts lower level players the most, those with few currants and who need energy the most.  This benefits higher levels players the most since they don't even need to eat to survive because of how big their energy tanks are.

    If food were only used for energy (if projects never asked for food), then equilibrium may be more likely to happen.  A lot of demand for food is to be able to pitch things into projects in hopes of gaining a trophy piece.  This is another incentive that breaks the game.  But as long as food competes with itself to both supply energy and to supply achievements, the likelihood of balance in food pricing on auction is low.

    You might also propose that auctions be turned into auctions, so that players could bid on items and a more realistic picture of what a player actually values an items at comes into view.  Right now, my choice is restricted to either/or.  Either I pay 10 currants/ea for cherries on auction or I go get them myself, even though the price I want to play for cherries is not 10c/ea.  There is no way to know how many players really want to pay 10c/ea, so that's not very free, either.  If someone does price cherries at a more reasonable but still highly marked up 3c/ea, someone else is more than likely to buy those cherries to flip them at 10c/ea. 

    A real auction would:
    -- Take the projects out of the equation (because the time it takes to buy things through auctions would go up and people at projects need stuff now).  This might be useful for slowing projects down, although -- for other reasons -- I don't think so.
    -- Truly tell us what players are willing to pay for items without the ability for someone to come in, scoop it all up, and resell it at a higher price.

    But still has the energy problem.  If I can eat cabbage to fill my tank, and cabbage is valued closer to its energy price than the awesome stews on auction, I'm not going to be likely to buy the stews if their price gets inflated - the only reason might be stack size, so perhaps eggs are a better comparison to stews for this illustration.  An awesome stew stack size is 12, for a stack energy value of 2400.  A egg stack size is 250 for a stack energy value of 1250.  That's close enough to illustrate: 2 stacks of eggs = 1 stack of stews... but if I can get eggs cheaper than stews to feed myself, I will.

    At any rate, I'm droning on and most of this will still be met by "let the free market ride!" because people don't seem to pay much attention to the real underlying economics, ignoring that a free market is not at work here.

    At any rate, this aspect of the game frustrates me to no end.

    tl:dr - auctions and the economy at present shapes the game in negative ways.
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It took me two hours to replenish my beans, cherries and spice last Thursday night. Two full hours. And then I did my cooking and went through it all pretty damn fast. It might have been smarter to have simply bought bushels at auction.

    That said, I completed Gardening III, so I expect gathering to be a much more fruitful experience now.

    (zeeberk -- that was a thoughtful post -- i never put it together that food price was equal to energy gained.)
    Posted 17 months ago by emdot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Cherries are worth more on the auction than finished projects because they're more versatile. I might not want a pungent sunrise, specifically, at that moment, but if I had a bunch of cherries I could turn them into whatever I wanted pretty quickly.

    I am maxed out in gardening, spend a fair amount of my time gathering cherries, and can still never get enough. If I were only making things for myself out of them, it wouldn't be a problem, but projects require a large number of items made out of an ENORMOUS number of cherries. You can go through 1000 cherries surprisingly quickly while making things for projects. I only buy if I have to: I'd rather use my own cherries for free, but if I've run through my stock and still need more, I will pay 10 currants per cherry. I have enough money to cover it, so it's not a big deal (especially if I don't do it all the time).
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Surprise!  Economies, especially relatively small ones, are sometimes inefficient.   While I do think this discussion carries some value in and of itself, the very definition of "wealth" that everyone's operating off of is pretty much useless since many people, including myself, are operating under the assumption that none of it really matters all that much (it'll all vanish in a few weeks).

    Also, for the record, I think the reason people want to "let the free market ride" is not because people don't seem to understand the economics in play — it's just that actually trying to eliminate these small inefficiencies seems so utterly pointless that it isn't worth the effort, especially given how sharply the economic situation will change after launch.  The impact of the current inefficiencies on behavior are just too small.  Thanks for your analysis, zeeberk, but you seem to be insisting on free-market capitalism for free-market capitalism's sake.  If you find that fun, so be it.  I don't.
    Posted 17 months ago by Jannisary Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Zeeberk, it also greatly irritates me that people would buy stuff at auction and resell it for a higher price. I think this is unethical. However, there really is no way to stop it, and it will exist wherever player-run marketplaces exist (I've seen it before--it was a huge problem in Faunasphere, especially since you could sell stuff for the type of money that is bought with real world money, in addition to the play money that is free in-game).
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I make enough money mining to buy raw ingredients and since I don't just use them for one thing I buy a bunch. I hate harvesting, but as I've had less play time recently I've been doing it more cause I don't have as much time to mine so I have to get my own ingredients cause I'm broke.

    But as soon as I get more money, I'll be back to buying raw ingredients so I don't have to get them myself.

    It is EXTREMELY easy to make money in this game you can mine and sell (I've made 25 k just from sparkly) you can raise animals and sell their product for a great deal of money, you can collect raw materials, etc.

    Since its so easy to get money in this game I've never seen any need to have someone regulate prices
    Posted 17 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Sherpherdmoon,
    Do you think that people who buy something off eBay and resell for a higher price are unethical too?   

    Just wondering, as I see a lot of people complain about resellers, and to me it's just part of life and I guess I just wonder why some consider it unethical.
     
    If I'm out at a store (IRL) and I find a too good to be true bargain, I may not have any desire for the item myself, but I feel I have the right to buy it and resell it and make some cash.  
    Posted 17 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ebil: I do think that is a little unethical, but there are certainly far worse things out there so I'm not that hung up about it. I suppose the reason I see it as unethical is that it is artificially driving up the price of stuff to the detriment of people that actually want to buy that item because they want it/need it, and not because they want to make a profit off of it.

    EDIT: something that greatly irritates my husband, who is a collector, is when people buy every single copy of a rare item from all of the stores in their area and then sell them on ebay for highly inflated prices. They are making that rare item even rarer by wiping out the stock at all of the stores, so others who wanted just one of those for themselves now can't find it and have no choice but to buy it for many times its original price. This particular practice seems rather selfish to me, although I think that what you described about what you are doing is not this extreme, and thus not a problem.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Also, *why* are people buying cherries for 10 each?"

    people have money and want to quickly make things using cherries in order to complete quests.

    at this point in glitch's history, there is a relatively constant churn of new players looking to complete quests and the easiest way to do that is often to buy at auction, with the currants granted by completing the quest offsetting the inflated price of the raw materials.

    this is a rational reason to buy resources at auction for higher prices than buying completed items.

    there are other reasons as well. sometimes players don't know helga sells cheap sunrises, there are many, many streets now, and only one helga. if they do know about her, they might be very far away from her and unable to teleport.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Jannisary, you said, "Thanks for your analysis, zeeberk, but you seem to be insisting on free-market capitalism for free-market capitalism's sake.  If you find that fun, so be it.  I don't."

    No, I'm not arguing the free market for the free market's sake, I'm only arguing that one cannot liken the current game economy to the free market.  For example, people validate the extremely high mark-ups by saying, "well, that's the free market."  No, it isn't, for reasons I've outlined elsewhere.

    I don't play Glitch to play a game about capitalism, but if the economy here could be corrected to act more like the free market, it'd be a more level playing field and a better game.  The current economy is so inefficient and skewed toward greedy selfish actions that it's not very satisfying for overall game play.  We have an economy, so rather than say the game is about or should be about the economy, I'm saying that the current economy makes for a subpar game experience at times.

    Ebil, I don't care for reselling in Glitch because it contributes little to the Glitch culture. It's a handful of players (who, by the way, rarely provide any input of any kind about the game on these Forums, so it's a bit hard to get a handle on how they fully play Glitch).  It's not as though wealth in Glitch creates opportunity to broaden the economy as it does in real life (in other words, in real life, accumulating wealth leads to expanding the economy by creating jobs or raising all tides or enabling people to invent things or whatever - that aspect of the economy is completely not in play in here).  So,  the only viable thing that wealth accumulation in Glitch does is to enable people to level up without really having to create or contribute anything in-game.  Under this assumption, the folks raking in the bucks on auction can spend their money on favor at shrines and level the hell up (to nowhere).  I could also assume that perhaps they are using their wealth to dominate project leaderboards.  Or maybe they are just sitting on piles of currants.  I have no way of knowing since we rarely hear from these people, but the one time I did ask someone why they played the auctions the way they did was because that enabled them to level up 20 levels in one day and get a house in Alakol.

    Sure, it doesn't hurt me that someone levels up 20 levels and buys a house in Alakol in one day, but I'm not convinced in anyway that this style of play is good for the overall game or the community or culture we are purportedly trying to build.  So, perhaps someone could explain to me how this behavior makes Glitch a better game than asking me to justify why it annoys me.

    Then again, the last experience I had on auction was followed up with an email rubbing it in my face that my products were purchased and resold at such a higher value.  Really, was that behavior necessary?  It indicates what I don't want Glitch to become: one of rude, selfish, greedy, annoying people who play the game to one-up other people or to get under someone's skin for the sake of it or whatever else people think negative asshat behavior contributes to the game being more interesting,

    Contrast that to previous experiences I had selling on auction: I set a reasonable price (not much of a markup, covered my costs and gave me some back, but not extravagantly so), people bought the stuff to contribute to projects *and* some followed up with IMs thanking me for cranking out so much stuff at a reasonable cost.  *That* was a great experience because I felt like I contributed to the community and was in turn valued by the community.
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With regards to the OP's original question on why folks are paying so much for the basics, it's the badges/achievements. 

    I'm a very reluctant level 38. The 'game' is limited for me at this level, so I've turned my attention on to achievements. I'm working on the achievements for seasoning 2003 eggs, and 2003 beans. Do you know how many bubbles and general vapour that takes? So yes, I've been buying bubbles and general vapour in the thousands. Not 10c/ea but certainly at rates much higher than the 1c base cost.

    Does it drive up prices for these resources, hell yeah! Is it wrong? I don't know. It is certainly the inevitable result of too many currants chasing too few resources. I, for one, don't have any other way to get thousands of general vapour in a viable manner.  

    I make it a point to teleport to Ix to harvest what I can, but without the auctions, it's going to be a long long grind. Camping at Ix to harvest the 20 gas plants there game day after game day is not my idea of fun. In the meantime, I'm sitting on this pile of currants that I have no other use for.
    Posted 17 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We may get currants from vendors, but we also spend currants at vendors. I don't see any problem with the game economy. Plus, it's not supposed to be all that realistic... if it were, all of our Glitchen would have jobs and the like and be paying all sorts of taxes and bills and stuff, lmao.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ping, do you mean quests or achievements/badges?  Because they are very different things.
    Posted 17 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Windborn, Oopsie. I meant achievements, not quests.

    (Will be editing that post)
    Posted 17 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • hi
    Posted 17 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Taylor, the argument makes sense from a real world perspective.  How many raw materials do you know of in real life that cost more than the resulting products they create?

    If we were only making drinks from cherries, the argument is that it's foolish to buy cherries on auction at 10c/ea when the resulting drink you make with them is held at a price not more than that which the vendor sells them for.  If the vendors didn't sell the drinks, then the drinks might be able to be sold for more on auction, creating a better economy than one in which a raw material is worth more than its resulting product.  However, that is still limited by the worth of the energy (err, well, mood, since it's a drink, but if we were discussing food, it'd be energy). At least drinks have special buffs that might be worth paying for - prepared food does not.

    As others have pointed out, however, projects and quests get into the mix, driving up demand for cherries beyond making drinks out of them, which may debunk the argument to a certain point... 

    ... except that this demand for achievements/projects penalizes the player who wants to make drinks and sell them by forcing them to either pay outrageous prices for the cherries or go spend the time to gather them.  I think the pressure these achievements put on the game is not good for the game, but I also know people are going after these achievements because after a certain level, there are simply no other goals to have.... and many more people are now hitting that level-wall than before since this is the longest we have gone without a reset.  Post-launch, maybe the game will be more balanced by the time we get back to here and the achievements might revert back to being serendipitous happenings rather than goals players try to achieve in a day.

    10 minutes is not a big deal to go harvest 250 cherries.  I'd rather do that than pay 10c/ea for them, regardless of my use of the cherries.  As Ping points out, this fact changes down with gas, since gas is truly rare in relation to cherries.

    [ah, looks like Taylor edited their post to remove most of it, but I spent the time to write a reply, so will go ahead and post it]
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've said it before, but I'll say it again, since these topics keep coming up: this is a completely unrealistic economy, and there's no reason to expect it to behave in a realistic way.  There's also no need for it to do so.  It is in no danger of collapse.  No one will go hungry if auction prices remain high.  Other games are not depending on the Glitch economy for a steady supply of crystals and parsnips.  Buying and selling here, at auction or otherwise, is just for fun.

    That said, zeeberk is correct, and her generous efforts to provide affordable auctions for lower-level players have been repeatedly thwarted by those seeking to make large profits.  Those players haven't yet realized that there's very little use for currants past a certain point in the game.  :)  If you really need them, they are to be found just about everywhere -- anything can be sold to a street vendor -- so when you have enough food to get through a game day, the rest of the day can be spent making enough money to buy anything currently available.
    Posted 17 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh sorry Zeeberk, I had read that MR Dawgg added 'It doesnt make sense for me to make Pungent Sunrises but rather sell my cherries and buy them' in which my original response was irrelevant.

    Though I will say its still a mighty big request to make, because people might not be buying cherries to make pungent sunrises. I only buy cherries to make fruits for instance. You might not think that 10 minutes is a bad amount of time to collect cherries but I'm so bored all the time that 10 minutes of doing nothing but pressing enter, I might as well not even be playing, and since I know how to make more than 2,500 currants in 10 minutes, its more sensible for me to buy them. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I actually buy raw materials (cherries, meats, etc) because I have enough money to and I make food out of them for 2 reasons: 1. to eat for myself. I always make my own food. 2. to donate to street projects that need a billion items. I can't possibly just rely on my own gathering to make things to donate to street projects.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lung Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I got into beta late and have had NO trouble whatsoever making enough money to buy whatever i need, on auction or from vendors. For what it's worth. My Glitch is well fed, thank you!

    In fact, I made some thousands on auction just on a whim by opportunistically farming Papers for like three minutes.

    I don't actually see any problems being discussed here, just people expressing surprise that other players are profiting in unexpected ways and disappointment that this exceedingly goofy game's economy doesn't behave in a realistic fashion.

    In fact, I think it's VERY well-balanced, especially for a beta. Probably for one major reason: gold sinks. Every Glitch is a walking garbage disposer -- we eat like motherf**&ers -- and as if that wasn't enough, there are dumpsters on every street into which we all willingly toss useful stuff. If the dev's ever wanted to adjust for inflation, all they'd have to do is increase or decrease the rewards for donations. Pretty cool!
    Posted 17 months ago by naitPee Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You need to think about this in perspective of what TS is trying to achieve. It's easy to make currants in this game if that's what you want to do. But there's little purpose in amassing wealth because there's nothing to spend it on. For some, that might be something TS overlooked but I think it's by design. And I think it's very smart. All of it is set up to nudge you into playing the game and using your learned skills rather than feeling like you're working some odd job.

    1. Games that have expensive, rare, high-level, shiny things to buy cause players to grind for money.
    2. Street projects require a variety of things that are more efficient when harvested in groups.
    3. You can't directly buy your way to street project leaderboards because there isn't enough supply in Auctions.
    4. Auctions allow lower-level players to earn more for what they harvest vs selling to vendors.
    5. Food and drink vendors let higher-level players buy what they need instead of having to spend hours ahead of time creating food/drink.
    6. The shrines do not take currants for donations. That nudges players to do what they like to do and then donate what they harvest/create.

    You look at Glitch and see a broken economy. I think TS sees it as Mission Accomplished, there is no economy, there's a casual MMO game for people to play and have fun.
    Posted 17 months ago by SleepyAce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "6. The shrines do not take currants for donations. That nudges players to do what they like to do and then donate what they harvest/create."

    perhaps not, but since favor is based on the currant value of the item donated, it is quite easy to buy favor by buying items to donate.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Shrines are right next to vendors. 10 currants = 1 favor by buying from a vendor and immediately donating to a shrine. 

    Buying from auction to donate is silly, you'll get more favor by purchasing stuff from a vendor to donate. 

    Selling on auction at inflated prices, however, enables you to donate that much more to a shrine.
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Buying from auction to donate is silly"

    not necessarily.

    it is often possible to buy things at auction for below NPC vendor prices since selling to a vendor requires selling at 70% of full value.

    there's usually a fair amount of stuff available at auction for 80% or 90% full value.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Isn't it kinda like the fact that some people would never pay $150 for a meal when they can make it the same at home, but others don't want to bother making it so they do? 
    Posted 17 months ago by NutMeg Botwin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, I meant I buy raw materials (cherries, meats) to make the items to donate. I don't buy premade grilled cheeses to donate to street projects.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lung Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't think people pay 150 dollars for a meal because they don't want to make it at home. People go out to eat because it's going out. They get the entire restaurant experience. Also, more families need to have sit down together dinners. I was surprised to learn only like 30ish% of Amurkan families still do.

    In any event, it seems Projects throw it off. I have yet to mess with Projects, so I didn't realize it. But, still, I think if Vendors stopped selling finished products, it would fix everything. I shouldn't have to compete with an NPC.

    Zeeberk makes a good point about Drinks being good to buy because of Special Effects. Some food has the 'hearty' effect. Maybe more end-game food should have Special Effects as well. Even if only simple effects, anything to make it something more than 'Gain X Energy' would make an incentive to buy it.

    Also, I'm not *trying to make money.* In my first paragraph, I mentioned that I, too, make money the same way allayall do it. I 'make' things from the game, and I sell them to NPCs or Auction. But, I've been trying to go for more wheel and deal type of game play interactions, and  keep running into a wall because... WHY. Why make things when I can just sell the raw materials for more. It's disheartening. The cooking skills really serve virtually no purpose when you're smarter-off just Selling Your Cherries(meat/whatever) at Auction and then Buying the Finished Products from NPCs.

    But but... Projects. Ok I get it. So the game is Projects. Maybe I need to do a Project... I don't know if that interests me or not, but I'll make a point to do it. So, everything exists to serve for doing things for Projects. I certainly hope not. That seems kinda dumb to me to have the game ride on one activity.
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I get what you're saying though....Maybe vendors should sell similar things that aren't AS good....that would encourage more of the player created market..... Like, the vendor offers a food item that gives x amount of energy, but if a player makes it, it gives x+50 amount of energy and a buff or something....good points.
    Posted 17 months ago by NutMeg Botwin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The cooking skills serve a purpose for me:  they are fun.

    I don't sell the cooked foods to vendors.  I give them away, or sell a few at a time on auction.  Most of my auctions are geared towards newbies, with small amounts at low prices. 

    I guess I'm not "smarter" if I don't sell the ingredients so I can buy the finished product.  But why should I?  My goal in the game is not to make currants.  And the game certainly doesn't "exist for doing things for Projects". 
    Posted 17 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 for this:

    But, I've been trying to go for more wheel and deal type of game play interactions, and  keep running into a wall because... WHY. Why make things when I can just sell the raw materials for more. It's disheartening.

    I agree 100%.
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If your goal is to make more currants by selling raw materials and you refrain from using cooking skills because you won't make as many currants when you sell the finished product, then I'd say it is your "more currants" attitude that is taking away the fun. 

    Since I don't measure my fun in this game by the number of currents I get for a particular action, then I'm not "disheartened" by making food. 
    Posted 17 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In the long run[1], NPCs won't sell any[2] crafted products, unless they bought it from a player and are trying to sell it for a profit.

    [1] Not very soon!
    [2] There will probably be some exceptions to this.
    Posted 17 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As a frequent auctioner I can testify that cherries were going for 10c each before the auction sniper was released.
    Posted 17 months ago by EgIantine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • F'ing-A Stewart. Good show.

    WindBorn, I'm more speaking hypothetical. I also make things and give things away. In fact, during uptime, I make a point to send something to most of my 'active' friendlist people. They usually send something back. It's fun. And I make silly comments about the things I send them.

    I'm more saying, there's this aspect of the game that just isn't working. I like buying and selling. I *can* make money doing it. But I feel miffed because... excluding exp gain... fun.. etc... it's just 'bad business.'

    Zeeberk, glad we found common ground on an issue :)

    Thanks everyone for your input and for reading.

    See you there,

    MD
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One thing I've noticed is that Animal eggs (save the chicken eggs) are more expensive to make than they are to buy from an NPC, especially the piggy eggs. A quick solution would be to up the price at the NPC to encourage others to make them instead.

    As for the rest of the economy, it will eventually balance out. Also- the base items are used to make a variety of things, making them expensive because Cherries=strawberries, lemons, pineapples, (name other fruits), drinks, street projects, meals, etc. etc.

    So the base item is of a greater value than the end item due to it having many more possibilities than the end item. (or.. that's how I see it). It's being sold high due to its potential.
    Posted 16 months ago by Zeezee Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Never mind, not worth it to post.
    Posted 16 months ago by ~Alice~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Vendors will sell nothing crafted?

    So newbies who need tools, will need to sell cherries until they can afford fry pans put on auction for 50k by high level people who want to control the market?
    Posted 16 months ago by ICountFrom0 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "high level people who want to control the market?"

    They won't be able to. If they do, you make a gazillion frying pans and sell them for much less, and voila - problem solved and you make instant profit.
    Posted 16 months ago by Saro Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It will be difficult to find out what goods are being sold at high prices to newbies.  Newbies aren't likely to know when they are being gouged, and the rest of us aren't likely to spend our time prowling through the auctions comparing the price of a single item with its stated value. 

    The problem with many of the solutions talked about so far is that they assume complete knowledge of actual price and value of every auction item by every player in the game.  If everyone is fully informed, then the market mechanisms suggested will keep the prices at some in-game equilibrium point.

    But in reality most players won't have anything near the amount of information they need to make an informed buying decision or an informed decision to produce and sell an item.  The market only balances out if everyone participating has all the same information. 
    Posted 16 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would have to disagree, WindBorn. There is a strong tendency for people in games to undervalue their time. For example, in Eve Online I can buy an entire battleship, reprocess it into minerals, and sell the minerals at instant-buy prices and make money. All of this can be done in the same station. Buy from market, right click --> reprocess, right click on each stack of minerals --> quick sell.

    Why? Because of the "if I mine it, the minerals are free" thinking that so many people have.

    I don't expect it to be any different here over the long term. In fact, because everyone knows internet spaceships are serious business and Glitch most certainly is not serious business (except to the devs) I expect that we will be flooded with tools that take 50 gazillion energy worth of activities to manufacture, being sold for 100 currants because people often value their free time at virtually nothing.

    Oh, sure at the beginning there will be big market run-ups, and one can expect that some people will try to corner the market on this or that because they got deep pockets. But so long as raw materials are not controllable by a small cartel, prices will tend to deflate rather than inflate as the player base grows, except for things with a set spawning amount. And there are ways to counter that if the devs so choose, such as decreasing the replenishment time for rocks.
    Posted 16 months ago by Tzombor Subscriber! | Permalink
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