Topic

Join the discussion... herb prices in auction too high, due to sniping, just right?

Have changed the title of this because it has evolved into an interesting forum on what people think. 

Here are my new thoughts about the matter:
-I still believe it would be nicer if herb prices fell a little.  However I'd like to make it clear I'm not attacking anyone who sells or buys at high prices. That is totally your decision.  And I understand your motives.
-I still don't think sniping in general is awful, but I do think it's a problem when it comes to herbs.
-I'm surprised that a community which is generally super nice responds kind of nasty to a forum like this.  Kind of supports this: http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/13879/
Sorry to instigate or contribute to this nastiness. 

What I originally thought was fair:
Purple- 194 (note: actual selling price less now)
Gandlevery- 250
Hairball- 302
Rookswort- 320
Rubeweed- 280
Silvertongue- 270 (note: actual selling price significantly less now) 
yellow crumb- 302  (note: actual selling price significantly less now)

UPDATE: Just to let you all know, I grow all my own herbs in the community gardens.  I have accumulated more of certain types than I could ever use.  So I set out to auction them.  And found snipers and automatic programs were artificially inflating prices to a point which the common glitch can't afford.  Not suggesting, exactly, that common prices are unfair.  Just suggesting that lowering prices a tinsy weensy bit could help everybody partake in the fun that is herbs.  
So I will flood the markets with my discounted herbs.  Hopefully I can help keep prices down.

Posted 12 months ago by Isabelle the Pug Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • Sorry, I'd like to be more clear. sniping affects all prices. fact is veggies for a croppery three enabled person cost about 1-2 currants per vegetable. While herbs are more problematic in terms of yield, they aren't really all that much more expensive, unless you start tossing a ton of guano at them to profit as fast as possible.

    I'm glad that herbs and  herb growers are finally getting recognition, but it doesn't mean I like the idea of the market folk dictating the "game" for future play.

    Fact is, music blocks are almost a garbage collection duty once you gain a bit of skill. I dropped of about four bags yesterday or the day before at the vendor. guano is almost free, 1 per petted piggie. Most everything is quite inexpensive here in Glitch, ye there are those who actively seek to make this easy world into a mirror of the dog eat dog world they profit from on the outside.

    I have a problem with snipers. I think they're a problem here and only a moron would believe they're not a gaping problem in the real world. I simply mentioned them because they affect all prices.

    I don't have an issue with someone profiting from actual labor, I have an issue with professional parasitism. Mosquitoes have oodles more intrinsic worth.
    Posted 12 months ago by Woochi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Herbs take hours to grow and if you are unlucky you might only shuck 1 seed per herb. And you have to replant them back but your time got wasted.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mrkurasaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I, for one, welcome our new herb-price-reducing overlords.  While I will still try to price my herbs as high as the market can bear, this game would be really boring if I could get everything I wanted with little to no effort.
    Posted 12 months ago by Warrender Subscriber! | Permalink
  • New topic title: "On Tuesday December 13th I was raped by herb auctioneers and my rapists were not banned"

    Too soon?
    Posted 12 months ago by Effigy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not just herbs, Milk Hooch and Meat are facing the same problem.......
    i just managed to sold 27000 Worth of Meat and Milk at 470 a bunch....... And so much Hooch sold i can make Al Carpon like a novice.......... 
    All sold the the same person the same second i release the goods into the market...... Did someone used a script to do auto buy?? 
    Posted 12 months ago by JohnSomeOne Subscriber! | Permalink
  • sorry. rape jokes are still not funny and still not appropriate.
    Posted 12 months ago by flask Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So what if someone buys all the things that he thinks are selling for too low a price, and turns around and sells them for what he thinks is a fair price?  It is only a fair price if someone else is willing to pay it, and the person who originally put their item for sale is getting the money they wanted.  It sounds like a win win situation to me.
    Posted 12 months ago by Jewel Stoned Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The prices are set at a point some people are willing to pay. I'd wager those people are folks who live in homes with decent sized gardens. Based on the actual game cost of goods, those with 28 plot crop gardens can make a profit of 2800c in 8 hours growing Zucchini. More if they grow 3 sets of strawberries (over 4500c in 7.5 hours) or 5 sets of rices (5000c in about 7.5 hours) or 10 sets of spinach (7560 in 7.5 hours)

    With 12 herb plots (the largest sized bog home), you can hope to make 1400c in 7 hours with silvertongue or 1800c in 9 hours with yellow crumb. And, unlike crop gardens, herb gardens don't tend to produce more profit if you grow multiple sets... 2 sets of hairball will net 792c in 9 hours or 2 sets of Rookswort will net 900c in 10 hours. Purple seems to be the exception which might get you 2800c in 8h, but still just over half of what you could make with rice and about a 1/3 of what you could make with spinach. 

    Prices are high, yes. But they're significantly less than they were when the skills came out and they'll probably continue to drop as supply meets demand.
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Twice the actual price of the herb, as listed under info + 160 (for the fertilizer) + 10 (itty bitty profiteering fee)"

    I think it's best to take into consideration that some herbs like Rubeweed only averages 1 per plot.  To get back seeds, most of the time 50% of a Rubeweed harvest has to be shucked.

    I have tried calculating what profit there is in growing Rubeweed with guano.  Atm, the cost of guano is making me see red instead of green.

    An average cost of 80 per guano would mean 1920 fertilizer cost per 12 plots.  A Rubeweed harvest usually only consist of 12 Rubeweed, at least 50% of which gets shucked.  (Let us pray that all the shucks get 2 seeds each, and not say 0 seeds.)

    Let's say, we're (very) lucky and we end up with at least 6 Rubeweed - these have to be sold at a price which covers the 1920c fertilizer cost, auction listing fee and commission.

    As far as I can calculate, any significant profit would come from super harvests and really cheap guano.  If get my own guano - fertilizer cost goes down to 384c + the time I spent collecting it.

    Yes, even at 500c per Rubeweed, I'm very unsatisfied with Rubeweed farming.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Forgot to mention, that if you've paying 80 per guano for Rubeweed - I really won't recommend selling at only 280c per Rubeweed.

    As long as guano prices stays high, the only people making a lot of money off Rubeweed are the snipers buying at 280c and selling at 500c +.

    As for the other herbs, I haven't tried farming -calculating yet.  Very tired about herbs, atm.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am surprised at the high herb prices myself.  I have profited from it but I am more than willing to be added to the list for selling at a more reasonable price via in-game trade.  

    I didn't even know that there was a program to snip the auctions.  Now that sound like cheating!  I think that's why I can NEVER win an eBay bid too. grumble.
    Posted 12 months ago by Flanuora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's this one.

    glitch.li-ping.com/help_auc...

    And just for the record, I am using it.  It helps a lot in purchasing stuff.  Buying auctions can be hard on the wrists.

    I haven't used it to buy cheap herbs and double-up.  I use it to buy stuff for the Tool Vendor.  As far as I can tell, profit is minimal - I get much more from music box drops during tree-harvesting.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just remember when you put your music blocks up for auction, folks.  Selling way under item value just leads to auction snipers getting rich as they run their script and have frogs deliver stuff to sell to the tool vendor all day long.

    You may think you are doing folks trying to get their music block collections together a favor but the reality is they will never get to even see your auction before it is sniped.
    Posted 12 months ago by Warrender Subscriber! | Permalink
  • stoot has said that arbitraging under-valued goods is a valued part of the player economy. Using a script to auto it may be an unfair advantage, but the basic economic principle is not. From the seller's perspective, think of it as a smaller service charge to deliver goods to the tool vendor, rather than having to make the trip to Ur oneself.

    And the principle is the same regardless if your selling the items to the tool vendor or another player.

    The solution is very straightforward, it's just not easy: If you don't like high herb prices, buy a bog home & grow some yourself

    Edit: I've funded all of my alts using arbitraging, but I've done it manually, not using a script. I'd actually wager I make more by doing it manually, since I can manipulate the available auctions to encourge the undercutters to continue their mad dash to the bottom :)
    Posted 12 months ago by Sturminator MoOre Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Unless the snipers are sniping cheap herbs and doubling them, tool vendor sniping isn't something to brag about, profit-wise.

    I've been testing it for about a week now.  First, the sniping rules have to be manually set for each item.  One miscalculation and you'll be in the red.  Imagine accidentally setting the meat sniper at 77 instead of 7.  Or even at 8 or 9.  You have double-check triple check your snipe rules.  Trust me, It's TEDIOUS.  Right now, I'm under the impression that the people who made snipe rules for every item have OCD.

    Second, there are many snipers (I think).  So much so, you'd be lucky to get an item at a really significant discount.  It took a long time to double my sniping investment.  Had I just concentrated on tree-harvesting or even gardening, I'd make a lot more currants in the same amount of time, and I wouldn't have to worry about accidentally getting a snipe rule wrong

    Third, you will never know when or if a price for an item changes.  Instead of making a profit, you'll be making a loss or providing free Vendoring service instead of profiteering.

    Perhaps, when sniping for vendor trash was still new, there was a lot of money to made.  These days, not really worth the trouble, imo.

    However, it's really useful for purchasing items in bulk.  THIS is what ping made the Sniper for.  Bulk buying.

    Also, I have to recommend the Auction Auto Sell app.

    http://gas.tsak.net/

    When I first started playing Glitch, auctioning even one item was painful (for my hands).  When I finally tried this out - I became hooked on auctioning.

    But, I don't auction super overpriced items.  XD  I use Autosell to try to keep Grocery Items at a fair price in the Auction House since I couldn't help but notice that some people were selling Grocery Items at 10x the price.

    Long post is long.  Apologies, but I feel compelled to defend ping's Sniper app.  He-she didn't intended it to make items more expensive.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Effigy: It's never too soon for comedy!

    This is nothing but another moronic "Somebody-has-something-I-want-waaaa-waaa" post. Herbs can be purchased. Use the currants you make doing whatever it is you do for currants. Herbs can be grown in the community gardens. Bog houses can be purchased. Keys can be begged for. Player-to-player trading is permitted. Anyone who wants to get herbs can get them. That you don't feel like paying for them is nobody's problem but your own.
    Posted 12 months ago by Stinky McBinky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • These topics just make me think of this guy.
    Posted 12 months ago by Xev Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks Xev for my first real laugh today!
    Posted 12 months ago by Sloppy Ketchup Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't quite get why people get all up in arms about the sniper. Herb prices would be high without the sniper- there's now a use for them, and it's all the rage at the moment. And why would herb-growers in their right minds participate in a scheme to lower the prices of the goods they're selling? How does that make any sense? That seems pretty self-sabotaging to me... why not cash in on something you can grow if there's now a demand for it? Besides, bog-dwellers have spent months selling herbs on auction for a pittance (in some cases, below the cost it took to grow them)... seems high time we were able to make a little money off our Herbology skill-sets.
    Part of what I find, erm, we'll say funny, about topics like this is that everybody blames snipers for what they perceive as "problems" with the economy. Like there's gonna be a catastrophic herb-bubble/market-crash in Glitch or something. Like being all hot and bothered about snipers doesn't have more to do with thinking the people who use them are exhibiting "professional parasitism" (not my words) because they've worked out what they want to buy, and what prices they're willing to pay for it. It's not an unfair advantage available only to a few- anybody can use it. If you don't want to use it out of some sort of moral outrage, don't. But don't get all pissed off at those who do because they don't follow your rules. How is that better?
    Full disclosure: I use the sniper. I use it to buy large lots of items so I don't have to click through 15 different auction-lots to purchase what I need. The only time I resell anything is if somebody sells, say, a moonstone for 650, but I don't make reselling a habit, not that that's anybody else's business.
    If you don't want people to resell your stuff at a profit, you need to research the tool-vendor and market costs yourself instead of getting mad that somebody else was sharp enough to take advantage of your lack of attention. I guess I don't appreciate being referred to as a parasite because I'm able to use a TS-APPROVED tool to accomplish what I want to accomplish. Sorry I'm not playing by somebody else's rules.
    Posted 12 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I use it to buy large lots of items so I don't have to click through 15 different auction-lots to purchase what I need."

    In other words, you have a huge advantage over someone manually trying to buy those same 15 auctions. You say TS has approved this automation? I know TS approves of the economic principle of arbitrage in the auctions, but the idea they want players running competing high-volume trading platforms seems dubious to me.

    But if that's the case, and it is approved, then I hope everyone starts firing up their own high-volume trading platform. I know I will.
    Posted 12 months ago by Sturminator MoOre Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I used to get fired up about this topic, but I'm over it.  I just grow my herbs and put them up for auction at slightly under the going price.  I was growing them weeks ago when you couldn't GIVE them away.  I sold them to vendors at 35c a pop just to keep from building up inventory.  So for now we make a little money.  In a few weeks it will be something else that everyone will be getting upset about and fighting over. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Mablem Tiipot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Strictly speaking, TS hasn't approved of it. What they have stated is that the tool itself is not in violation of the TOS. (http://www.glitch.com/groups/RHV10V06BH5240F/discuss/1172/#reply-12093)

    Personally, I'd say that, in general cases, something is underpriced when the costs of production (and distribution, if auctioned) exceeds the current price, and overpriced when people don't deal in it due to a high price.
    Posted 12 months ago by Aoi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The problem with herb prices isn't snipers, or greed.  The problem is that a large number of players are only motivated by new skills, quests and badges.    The overwhelming need (that they perceive) to get those badges has people paying high prices for herbs and selling the produced essences for lower prices, and selling produced potions for even lower prices.   Once that badge-lust is sated then prices of herbs, essences and potions will settle into line with their underlying utility and value.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think Aoi meant to link to this comment by stoot

    Ping's script is exactly the kind of thing we'd like people to build with the API (and what I hoped would happen with auctions).
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Sturminator - I don't really have any advantage. Anybody can use it. I'm not part of some secret cabal or anything with sole access. If you want it, here it is:  http://glitch.li-ping.com/help_auction_sniper.html#install
    Posted 12 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks. I knew I saw a staff statement that implied that it's permissible except I couldn't remember where it was... so I sent with the 3rd party statement of somebody else saying that stoot said it was fine.
    Posted 12 months ago by Aoi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Aoi - I think the only caveat they made was that they monitor the auctions fairly closely to prevent abuse, but that it's otherwise fine.
    Posted 12 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • For anyone wondering why guano prices are so high, it's because feeding all of those dang batterflies gets very hard on the wrist! Also, there is a bug where sometimes instead of letting you feed it 3 eggs (or whatever) it automatically takes half of your stock :-(
    Posted 12 months ago by Lettuce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lettuce huh? are you playing Glitch with the mouse only or something lol? You only need the WASD and the Enter key for pretty much everything.

    Keyboard play is more faster and efficient, the only time i use the mouse is for sorting stuff in my inventory since you can't really do that with the keyboard.

    Also I've never experienced that bug. I only feed it 2 meat a time btw. Also I found that selecting anything that is flying be it butterly or batterfly is easier with a keyboard.
    Posted 12 months ago by Vinchon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With the highest croppery skills, how much can you make from one crop of the most profitable vegetables if you have 12 plots?  what kind of bonus do you get and how often?
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And how does that compare to what the herb gardeners are making now?  

    I'd also take into account how little was the profit of an herb garden had been up until now
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And how does that compare to what the herb gardeners are making now?  

    I'd also take into account how little was the profit of an herb garden had been up until now
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it might be possible to Occupy the AH, metaphorically speaking - but it would require a team, a bucket of cash, and a huge stockpile of Rubeweed. If you want to give it a whirl, try it on one herb (maybe Rubeweed because that's the biggest problem). 

    The (legal!) snipers only have X amount of currants. There is Y amount of Rubeweed in the world at any time. It is theoretically possible to exhaust X by deliberately underselling a huge quantity of Rubeweed into the AH and bankrupting the snipers (find the sweet spot on what activates the script and sell to it, not below it by much, for max efficiency). Once they are bankrupted and no more undersold Rubeweed is being picked up by the scripts, the AH is clear. Flood the market with Rubeweed sold for the desired price (decided on by the collective). When the script-holders log on again, they will have a shitload of Rubeweed, no currants, and the going rate will be much lower than where their snipe threshold was set. If they try to repost the herb for the inflated price, those auctions will be ignored. And they won't have the funds to take the market back until they can grind up the currants to do so (which is possible). 

    Perils:

    1. The script-holders will have more money than the insurrectionists have Rubeweed, and the plan will fail spectacularly and profit the script-holders enormously, further consolidating their hold on the market. [NB: I don't have one and wouldn't know how to make one either, but if some ridiculously wealthy Glitch wanted to close the loop, they could write a script to buy any Rubeweed OVER the prescribed price, sell it FOR the prescribed price, and take the loss in order to lock down the resource until the Rubeweed from the original market coup had gone full cycle]. 

    2. Once the market is taken, it will naturally drift back to an inflated state due to inevitable profiteering. I don't know how long that would take, but probably about a week? Two at the most? A guess.

    So it would be crazy expensive to do, could well be doomed to failure, and probably wouldn't last. In my opinion. But it would be fun to try. Maybe the market will normalize once people get over the badge fever and it would be wasted effort, but I've got a feeling that if anything, it might get even more inflated as people give up on herb growing and move on to other things, maybe mining and just sucking up the reality of the high prices on the rare occasions they need it - supply and demand situation. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Aviatrix Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really don't understand how these snipers work--what happens if there is a low-priced Rubeweed that matches the preferences that 100 people have their sniper set to buy up? Who gets it? I've never used one, don't have any reason to, and hesitate to install 3rd party software anyway, so I have no experience on the using end. I have, however, suspected that a sniper bought up some of my own items that I offered at an extremely low price for a friend, that got bought so instantaneously by someone else that it didn't make any sense otherwise (there's no way they would have had time to even hit reload on the auction page to see the new item)... sorry friend that it was intended for...

    I still don't see how TS thinks it's OK for people not even online to buy up ALL of the cheap items without giving anyone actually playing the game a chance, but whatever.... Apparently using an alt account to buy a second home is a far worse offense than monopolizing items in the auction house.

    Anyway, I have noticed the bug of feeding *all* of an item to a pig instead of the item I just typed into the number selector. It really pisses me off when that happens, especially when I am typing the number, see it entered into the screen, and then am hitting the enter button as I watch the number inexplicably change from what I just typed in to the total number of vegetables I have in the inventory. Lesson: don't move too fast on this, no matter how boring it is and how quickly you want to get it over with. I suspect this happens when the mouse cursor is in the selector window: make sure you move the mouse completely out of the way before you attempt to use the keyboard, or it totally f*'s everything up. I haven't personally seen this happen with batterflies yet, but I'm sure it's possible.
    Posted 12 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Do what I am doing........boycott herbs/potions/tinctures for now.
    Posted 12 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you were using the Auctions to sell items to your friend, it must have been back last summer, before the mail system was tweaked.

    With the system now, all you have to do is mail the items to your friend, one stack at a time.  If you expect them to pay you, they can attach currants to their mail to you.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am boycotting the herbs/potions/tinctures as well Innie.
    Posted 12 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Windborn: It was part of a quest to auction some tomatoes or something, and I preferred to sell them to a friend. Someone else snatched them up in a fraction of a second, and my friend didn't have a chance. Not a big deal, but still irritating.
    Posted 12 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The person with the best connection to the servers gets it. That is, the first order that gets processed.

    It's interesting seeing where the fuss is coming from though-- if you just want to get paid, then sell it at the AH for whatever the market will bear and who cares what happens and who buys it. 

    Alternatively, another idea to just bypass the system: Don't put it in the AH and just make it clear that you're willing to sell whatever at a fixed price. (At a discount from the AH-- otherwise there's no incentive.) If nothing else, it ensures that there's a live person sitting there at the precise moment.
    Posted 12 months ago by Aoi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, the trade functionality that allows roomcasting which recently tested (Cebarkul was crazy) might be a real AH killer when it goes into general deployment, especially if certain streets get defined as ad hoc live markets for specific resources.
    Posted 12 months ago by Aviatrix Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Aoi, personally, my problem with the snipers is definitely not on the part of me wearing a seller's hat: I usually don't care where my product goes when I'm selling it, although I would idealistically prefer it goes to someone that really needs it. My problem is when I'm wearing a buyer's hat, and the snipers make it impossible for me to get a good deal, unless I'm willing to also install the 3rd party software (with all the risks that entails).
    Posted 12 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i still don't see what all the fuss is about.

    herbs are expensive? oh, sad panda! go mining or something to pay for them.

    you need them why? for a badge? oh, well, that's IMPORTANT then. a problem we all must solve.

    guano too expensive? oh, sad, sad panda! why don't you use your pile of currants to buy some?

    you need it why? so you can get herbs quicker because you need a badge? you spent all your money on cubimals? oh, well, that's different. it is now a crisis. rules must be passed to govern guano sales.

    or tell you what: why don't you go get some guano the old-fashioned way, grow yourself some herbs, and sell off the extras?

    then you can go back to starting threads about trading the semi-prices of half-rare re-boxable cubimals.

    if y'all will excuse me, i have some things to harvest.
    Posted 12 months ago by flask Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think your sarcasm just dripped all over me, flask.... ewww.
    Posted 12 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is sad panda some kind of meme thing, like honey badger? You kids and your weird animal references. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Aviatrix Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's a South Park thing, Aviatrix...
    Posted 12 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Flask
    Your earlier comments seemed intelligent and really made me think (as much as you can about a computer game).  This one just make me a little sad.  (Except for the "sad panda" remark... lol)

    FYI I have never bought herbs at auction.  I'm not trying for any badge.  I in fact do collect guano the old-fashioned way and grow myself some herbs, but when I went to sell extras at the auctions, I felt too guilty to charge the prices my stash of purples was going for.  If I sold it for cheaper alone, I knew a sniper would just by it up.  So I was wondering how other glitch felt about the situation...
    Posted 12 months ago by Isabelle the Pug Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lol @ Flasks comment.  Too true.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kissme Nao Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To the folks who are complaining about the sniping program, please TRY it.

    I was wary about it as well.  Now, I'm a convert.  I really think everyone should use it, because it's really that helpful on your hands and wrists.

    Also, the more "good" snipers there are, the better the economy is - I trust you'll put the currants to better use than the "bad" snipers.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • listen to your masters.

    http://images.mylot.com/userImages/images/postphotos/2099561.jpg
    Posted 12 months ago by Woochi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I sell herbs all time and as far as I can tell I've never sold to snipers.   When something sells instantly in a hot market I go check the profile of the buyer.  In the case of herbs it has always been someone who just got the skill for tinctures or potions.

    In the case of rocks, its usually been someone who has been doing a lot of refining, making and selling EHSP.
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink