Topic

Stop the griefing in the Comunity Herb Gardens

Glitch Change Log

"So migrant gardeners can have time to admire their work, public plots'll be locked to the seed planter for 60 seconds after harvestin time."
13 days ago.

Thanks Tiny Speck, thank you indeed, this thread can now rest in peace.

****************************************************************************************************************** 


TOO LONG, DIDN´T READ:
 THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ABUSE, NOT PICKED HERBS. There are Glitchens using unfair tactics to grief the users of the Herb Gardens BEYOND the normal "free for everyone", like using gameshow wheels to block your view of your crops and camping with 2 or 3 thieve friends to block your vision or splanking you and then proceeding to group steal your crops. They are actively mugging people in the herb gardens, not just picking stuff for free. This needs to be solved

Regardless of the rules of the gardens, or rules of the game...what we do notice in the end is that the area does promote griefing.  People see people planting, and naturally, they know that if they get at the harvest before the other person does, it causes grief.  Minor grief, yes, but distress is distress.  Sure, no one is entitled to what they plant per se, and anyone can harvest whatever they want, but that does not prevent the core issue, it is causing strife altogether.

So instead of arguing about who is right, whether it be the planters or the griefers, perhaps it would make more sense for a solution that would benefit everyone to come about.  I.E., brainstorming.  Arguing back and forth is not doing anything for anyone.  So let's all try solve the problem, and perhaps TS will listen and implement what we come up with, if it is good enough and lets everyone be happy!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * 
REST OF THE OPENING POST EDITED: I have decided to remove from the front page my original Opening Post because the actual debate and conversation doesn´t fit anymore into it, and I feel that pressing the issue to move forward is more important than chew on something that isn´t relevant anymore, and is better than opening a new thread.

It was edited not to misguide anyone or trying to hide something, is just a tool to keep the debate at hand on track.

If you are still interested in reading it (is long, boring, filled angst and frustration, and irrelevant to the actual conversation) you can find it here: 

docs.google.com/document/d/...

Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I don't have an opinion one way or another on if the community gardens need to change as I have no first-hand knowledge of them, never having visited them.  However I am not sure I see the validity of your statement.  Maybe there's extra context in some of your other posts that I have missed and if so I'm sorry; as the statement stands, though, I'm not sure I agree.
    Posted 12 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Let me say it again:  if someone "blocks" a set of herb plots you planted with game show wheels, you now have the upper hand, as you know what order you planted the plots in.  If anything, I think it hampers the efforts of a group trying to "swipe" herbs you are camping.  They can't see the plots either, and unless they watched you plant, they don't have the information you have.

    Use enter and arrows to garden.
    Posted 12 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @larky lion: Your simplistic solution doesn´t solve the griefing problem.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mikah, the solution to griefing problems is to report them via the in-game channels provided. Did you do that? What was the staff response?
    Posted 12 months ago by Midori Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lukie - Players who want to grow both crops and herbs on a reliable basis cannot do this in their own private garden. Using another player's garden can be a lot like the spontaneous system.  I have an arrangement now with another player where I harvest whatever I find in their herb garden, then plant and double guano seeds for exactly the same kind of herbs as I found in each plot. (Note: This is working for me, so I don't need additional house keys.) If multiple players share access to a house, it can become even more of a spontaneous system. So sharing a house can involve arrangements that satisfy the spontaneous player as well as the planful player.

    Sharing keys with others also can provide opportunities for bad behaviour:  For example, Player A shares keys with Player X, who is level 25 and seems really nice. Then Player X takes things from Player A's house, revokes Player A's keys, and leaves the game. Oh, and before leaving, Player X gives all their stuff to Player Y.  Player Y may be an alt for Player X, or Player Y may be an innocent party who knows nothing about what went down between Player X and Player A. Player A tells their story in this forum and is told they should only share keys with people they can trust.

    So Glitch is starting to feel like a game where you can only choose to learn and use certain sets of skills by coaxing a trusted friend to play the game and share a house, or by engaging in behaviour that you will be told was foolish if you get burned.

    One thing you can't do with a shared house is to plant altruistically to create a resource that anyone in the community can claim.  The community gardens are unique in this respect.  I do think it is parasitical to camp in or time visits to a community garden in order to harvest as much as possible of what others plant. However, I don't think it is parasitical to wander into a community garden and harvest some plots that happen to be ready, even without planting new seeds.  Indeed, leaving some empty plots can be a service.  There is a quest that requires planting herb seeds in a garden that is not your own.  If every plot in the community herb gardens is replanted after it is harvested, those who want to complete this quest will need to either get a key from someone else who has an herb garden or "camp" in the community garden for an empty plot.
    Posted 12 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Put nails in your splanking boards.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mr. Miskatonic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Mr. Miskatonic: very tempting idea... what you need, thinkering VI?
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My opinion on community gardens is that they are really awesome to have access to, but I have to agree that sadly some glitch do abuse it. It's so irritating. Also, I found that reporting does not help - I have done this already. Blocking them just stops the dodgy glitch abusing you, and likewise... Anyway, as per rules the gardens are open to all and it is up to the players to play well with others.

    Maybe some rules could be introduced that restrict harvest from plots that have your guano on it while you are in the area.  Similar to rules that restrict other players picking up your goodies when you drop stuff.  That would be nice.  Of course if you leave the plot, then it's there for the taking.

    If a glitch is fertilising, that should really be a hint to other glitch that that plot is taken and that that glitch had invested into it. 

    This said I guess "thieving" may be a valid game strategy for some (ie: we had our housing robbed the other day of piggy feeders etc... similar level of annoyance)... So, for GLITCH fed up with such gamers ANOTHER option not mentioned here is to get a friend that does not care to play glitch to create A NEW glitch, get it papers, and then technically buy yourself a SECOND house with herb plots then GIVE YOU A KEY... then you have a house with your own herb plots, from a glitch you know and trust.  ;)

    Probably would not recommend this unless you are really really fed up with community gardens and cannot get a friend to let you use their house with a herb garden...
    Posted 12 months ago by HopeforAlice Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Splendora: It doesn't sound at all 'spontaneous' to me, to have a agreement with another player full of rules about what you can plant and even how much guano you have to use. I do agree that private gardens are perfect for this kind of rule-based planting, and am glad you have something that works for you.

    Players who like to harvest the exact same seed they planted, or 'camp' over plants watching them grow without being taken by others, can do so in private gardens. They can have access to both crops and herbs if they share half their plots with someone with a garden of the other type.

    You said "So Glitch is starting to feel like a game where you can only choose to learn and use certain sets of skills by coaxing a trusted friend to play the game and share a house."

    I don't understand what you mean by 'starting', as the either crop or herb thing has always been the case, and is clearly a deliberate by the designers to get people to interact. You either find people to share with, or specialize in one and buy in the other. Maybe all the complaining by people that they can't have everything will make the designers change this, but its clearly something that was intended, and has nothing to do with the way people chose to play.

    The community gardens are unique in that they can be truly spontaneous. Anyone in the game can drop by at any time and use them. Unfortunately a small group of campers think they can treat them as their private gardens and harass those who don't play by their rules (even though the rest of us never agreed to their rules in the first place...).

    You said: " If every plot in the community herb gardens is replanted after it is harvested, those who want to complete this quest will need to either get a key from someone else who has an herb garden or "camp" in the community garden for an empty plot."

    I quite agree. I always try to leave the gardens with a mix of different types of herbs growing and a balance of full and empty spots, but that's just a personal preference.
    Posted 12 months ago by Lukie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There's an old thread about leaving plots unplanted

    Gardens have been causing an uproar about 'the right way to play' since the beginnin
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mikah , I issued you a key to my bog home yesterday.  Have you been using it?
    Posted 12 months ago by Sloppy Ketchup Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Sloppy Ketchup: I´m doing some badass tincturing thanks to your key and already got you some late glitchmas presents :D
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If somebody is fertilizing it might mean that they would like to plant something so they speed up the growing of one of the plots, harvest it, then plant their seed and leave.
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can think of an analogous Real World situation: let's say you want an internet domain name, say qwerty.com.  So you do a domain name search on a registrar, let's call it Good Domains, and you find your domain is taken, but will expire in 45 hours! Awesome! So you camp out and 45 hours later, you find that the very second the domain you wanted expired, it was taken by a "squatter", let's call him God Damned, who will happily sell you the domain you wanted for $10,000.

    Is this legal? Yes.

    Is is reprehensible?  Also yes.

    Is there a way around this? Well, in the real world, you can always use some more ethical registrar to do your searches on. There are tons of registrars and you aren't beholden to a small group of bad actors (any more). Good Domains gets a (well-deserved) bad rap and they face an exodus of customers due to their numerous unsavory activities *cough cough* and hopefully they change their ways.

    In Glitch, it breaks down because there are very few community gardens and reputation doesn't mean anything in a game where the community at large can't sanction individuals or even name them. And even if they could, it doesn't matter since they can just roll alts.

    So my proposed solution would be more community gardens. If every housing development had its own herb or crop community garden, I suspect that this problem of griefers camping and teleporting between the three gardens looking for farmers to mess with would fade away.  You'd get ripped off occasionally still, but it would take actual work for griefers to grief. It's work to camp a garden so why let these guys disrupt things so easily?
    Posted 12 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If the new housing system allows for semi private housing association community gardens the problem of zealots trying to control the harvesting will get even worse.
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mikah, brother, you're too cool to get upset about this.  So you're cool with them stealing your herbs but not cool with them stealing your herbs in a creative way?  Come on, man.  I'm sure if you think about this a day later with a clear head you'll realize it is really not that big of a deal.
    Posted 12 months ago by CosmicBitFlip Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @treesa, I'm not sure there are many systems worse than the current community garden system. Right now, there are few enough gardens that a small group of people teleporting around can grab every single herb that grows the gardens.

    I'm not sure how big I am on the semi-private paradigm... right now, glitchen just hang out with their own crowd of people and it'll tend more to that extreme if/when halls and housing associations etc. become official.

    If each housing development had its own public garden nominally attached to the housing development, but as public as the trees on housing streets (like they are now), then I think there would be so many gardens that a small group of griefers would have difficulty making everyone's lives miserable the way they are now. And it would be harder for the harvest control freaks to monopolize the gardens too.
    Posted 12 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think I have seen this mentioned in a few threads before. The easiest solution is to have a buddy, family member etc. in the real world spend 10 minutes making a new account with a bog house that they never intend to play and give you the key to it.

    It's not your character. You haven't broken any rules and you now have your own private herb garden.

    Technically you could even do this with any random person playing this game already. You can agree that each of you creates a new character whose then buys a bog house, gives the key to the other person's main character and then never logs in again.

    You are allowed to have multiple characters so long as they do not interact or help each other and thus you have broken no rules since its the other persons multi that has given you the key.

    It's kinda of sad that one should have to resort to such silly measures to grow a few herbs, and it wastes server resources for tiny speck but in the end its a solution then doesn't break any rule although I think its pretty shady.

    And people, don't you realize that by coming and complaining you are just feeding the sociopaths? They thrive on being able to make you argue with them here and in the game. They need the attention and you are giving it to them.

    -
    Posted 12 months ago by Melting Sky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And people, don't you realize that by coming and complaining you are just feeding the sociopaths?

    My first, glib response was going to be 'so are you saying you're kinda hungry, then?'  But I can be better than that.  Really, I can.

    It sort of creeps me out to see stuff like this plopped out into peoples' comments in the forum.  First off, you are almost certainly NOT qualified to diagnose sociopathology.  Second, this sort of practice is one of the means used in the Soviet Union during the era of the gulags to squelch opposing arguments. Loudly and publicly proclaim the opponent is nuts.  If possible 'diagnose'  the opponent and shut them up in a hospital.  Certainly do everything in your power to use fake 'clinical' diagnosis to smear your opponent, so that you don't even need to defame their ideas.

    Stop it, and shut the hell up if namecalling is what you are intent on contributing.
    ----------
    Now, to make a post on topic and actually stay with the thread:  it takes much longer than 'ten minutes' to create a mule account that has the skill set and credentials to purchase real estate in-game.  People who glibly say 'it takes ten minutes' obviously have never tried it.
    Posted 12 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Beyond the difficulty of doing it, I´m against the idea of "mule accounts" or having multiple accounts of any kind to get acces to one or more bog houses with a lot of Herb space, it enables one player to hog housing space wich is a limited resource too.

    I think that is unfair.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Blitz: Agreed with your post, I hope too the next Big Update adresses all this stuff in a proper manner.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @CosmicBitFlip: I´m not only cool, I´m rad to the max *cough* 90´s slang *cough cough*

    But if it has happened to me it can happen to anyone ingame, including new players who doesn´t know the mechanics of the game, and I don´t want them pesky noobs learning the ways of the griefers before learning to be nice citizens, or being subjected to bad behavior so early in their learning stages.

    I experienced glitch in the launching, never been in the beta/alpha stage, and I tought that this is the most wonderfull game ever because EVERYTHING in it was cool and friendly and cooperative. 

    There was no way to do real harm to anybody, and the most aggro behavior I have seen was the "Tree Wars"... and that is just hillarious, is an activity that never really endangers the prevalence of any resource in the game.

    Bu this herb stuff is just mean and can be transformed in some low and nasty underworld of bad behavior. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Very few newcomers to Glitch are so naive that they don't already know how to be nice citizens.  If they read the signs put up by the developers they will learn what the rules are so they know how to be nice citizens here in Glitch.

    There have always been jerks (even in alpha and beta).  It's fortunate that you didn't run into them until now, but your statement that everything in it was cool and friendly and cooperative is simply untrue.  

    There is still no way to do real harm to anybody, and if you experience harassment and griefing, just report it to the staff.  So far, everyone who has broken the rules has been removed from the game.   Being "mean" is not necessarily the same thing as breaking the rules.

    People who have been distressed by the tree wars are just as vocal and just as upset as you are.  As you correctly point out, trees are not endangered.  Herbs are not endangered either, no matter who plants or who harvests.  If they shouldn't be upset, then neither should you.  It is just as "hillarious" (sic) to kill a tree as it is to harvest an herb.  

    If you would follow the rules, and learn to play Glitch the way it has been designed to be played, then you would be less distressed and perhaps even have more fun.  Perhaps not, since high drama is also a gaming style.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have heard enough opinions from other players about your posting style WindBorn, I´m not going to repeat any of that but now I understand what they say and now I share their opinion.

    "Very few newcomers to Glitch are so naive that they don't already know how to be nice citizens.  If they read the signs put up by the developers they will learn what the rules are so they know how to be nice citizens here in Glitch." 

    You speak like you have never been in the internet before, I mean c´mon dude! seriously? a bunch of 14 year old troll dudes are going to abide to a few signs just because? 

    Many other MMO´s had to deal with this very same problem, and the solution was never "welp, lets put some nice looking signs over here,  the trolls are going to read those and BAM! problem solved!"
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn"As you correctly point out, trees are not endangered.  Herbs are not endangered either, no matter who plants or who harvests"

    Beated this horse to death in previous posts in this very same thread, beated to death and then proceeded to kick the corpse to a pulp, not going to repeat myself again, read these instead:

    http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/14637/page5/#reply-150721
    http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/14637/page4/#reply-150602
    http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/14637/page4/#reply-150593
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As you point out, a bunch of 14-year old troll dudes are not going to abide by a few signs.   Nor are new players likely to be teetering on the edge between "learning the ways of the griefers before learning to be nice citizens".  

    If you really distrust new players so much, then I'd suggest you make sure the Tutorial they all go through teaches them to play your way.  But since that's up to TS, it's very likely that they'll be taught to follow the rules as TS interprets them, and not your more narrow perspective.  

    Long before they get to the gardens, they've been taught to be good Glitch citizens.  By TS.  Who makes the rules.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mikah, I don't think that the first statement you make about Windborn's character in your post 3 above is kosher.  You can disagree with Windborn without making derogatory comments, even as thinly veiled as that.  Ad hominem attacks are inappropriate.

    Ultimately, I think your disagreement comes down to this: You see the seeds and guano you plant in community gardens as being *yours* (even if only for some limited time, while attended) while the devs seem to disagree.  The issue of griefing is separate.  If you think that some people's use of the community gardens is griefing, then report it and let TS deal with the problem.  If they disagree with you, then that is a signal to you to alter your playing style. 

    I'm still not clear on whether you reported the behaviour in the OP or not.  That should have been the end of it.

    I think the question is this: Is it griefing to collect all of the herbs in the community gardens as they grow?  Given the attitude of the devs on this, the answer is probably not, unless you are actively preventing other players from doing so. You don't have to like it, but you will likely have to live with it.
    Posted 12 months ago by Scarlett Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Scarlett Bearsdale: Yeah, is not Kosher, agreed. But is totally worthed. I stand by my actions when I know I´m right, and I don´t appreciate people that just post to troll threads. 

    My issue was initially about picked herbs, but reading the responses to my OP I have learned a lot of stuff I was not aware of about the Herb Gardens, and now I got a more comprehensive knowledge about their mechanics... but then I realized that in the process I discovered a way to grief and harass other players that has not been reported anywhere in the forums.

    This thread has become something else in the process of debate, and now I understand that the focus of my OP should have been in the griefing and trolling techniques that derives from the Herb Gardens. But I´m not going to open just another thread for that, I´m trying to shape this one in that way.

    And about the Devs, I don´t perceive any "attitude" from them, is their game and they can change or preserve whatever fits their plans... but by experience I know that Devs also lurks the forums of their games very often (if not daily), and this is a chance to bring this idea up to let them add something in the new Big Update that could (or not) address this issue.

    Thanks for your concern.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dear developers,

    I would love to pay you REAL money in order to add mods to my house for: HERB PLOTS, carpets, wallpaper, furniture, etc....

    Thanks!
    Posted 12 months ago by Guided by Foxes Subscriber! | Permalink
  • www.glitch.com/forum/genera...
    Posted 12 months ago by Dr. Yeti Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Corvus Maledicere: point long ago dismissed dear friend, you should read the rest of the posts before linking some useless response.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, is not Kosher, agreed. But is totally worthed. I stand by my actions when I know I´m right, and I don´t appreciate people that just post to troll threads. - Mikah

    Umm, so you're going to double down and say that it's okay to smear somebody because you are 'taking down' an awful troll, eh?  I have grown over time to respect WindBorn's comments though initially I did not appreciate them the way I do now.  I have seen nothing that WindBorn has posted that would constitute a troll.

    If we expand the scope of what constitutes trolling, then this whole thread that YOU INITIATED is a big troll.  Initially you seemed to be claiming that there is a huge threat that the way things are now, the present danger is that the game is breeding a festering pool of evil griefers. You initially, right in the first sentence of the OP, claimed that "THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ABUSE, NOT PICKED HERBS". It wasn't going to be yet another rant about community gardens, but was about the griefing with the gameshow wheel that you say occurred.  But you continue to dither between this issue and the general 'community gardens are completely broken' scree. It just seems a little too convenient that you can smoothly switch between the themes.  Are you, perhaps, using this whole thread as a massive troll because you are so unhappy about the Community Gardens?  If so, you've really scored big, because you've not only gotten your troll to five pages, you've gotten staff to comment on it. 
    ------------
    The above paragraph is not meant to formally 'charge' anyone with being a troll.  It's only courteous to extend the benefit of the doubt and assume that all still consider the main issue of the thread to be griefing (though certain parties have posted so little on that issue in recent comments)  But participants in the discussion need to be careful when tossing the 'troll' label around, when it can equally be applied to them.

    As always, we can all only hope WHNBT.  And that we can HAND regardless.
    Posted 12 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Parrow Gnolle: And you are entitled to your opinion.

    I feel that the constant repetition of the mantra "the rules are the rules, nothing is going to change, stop whining" does not constitute any kind of contribution to this issue, that´s why I feel that very sad every time some dudes (you know specifically who) insist in bring this kind of argument again and again. And when rebutted with evidence some dudes (you know specifically who) just jumps to another point of debate without even giving a hint of understanding.

    I like debate, not arguments. And with some people is nearly impossible to debate, because some dudes just want to watch the world burn.

    If you have been following this thread closely (tough task, I know), you should have found some insightful contributions to the idea, some glitchens here have oposed my idea in such a graceful way that I simply had to say to them "dude, you are right".

    Riddle me this Parrow Gnolle, to help me understand you a little better:  If someone comments this thread dropping gems like "cry baby", "oh god not another whiny herb thread" and the worst offender of all "you don´t know how to play the game, just follow the rules" do you think they are:

    a) Being rude 
    b) Being nice and that´s how this should be done, BAM!
    c) other, please give me an example.

    Peace.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lukie - Let me clarify.  I was describing what I can do, not what I'm required to do by any agreement.  My arrangement with the other player allows me to go to their herb garden and harvest whatever I may find there that's available for harvesting.  That feels spontaneous to me. Replanting and applying guano is my decision; it's the same thing I'd most likely do in a community garden (assuming I had guano at the time).

    If  would feel even more spontaneous to me if my friend with the herb garden would send a key to 100+ other people who would visit whenever they wished, harvest anything they wished of what was available, replant as they felt moved, and then to leave.  However, it may well be that this doesn't feel spontaneous to you because this herb garden would not be available to everyone who plays Glitch.  I was using the term "spontaneous" to refer to a certain playing style rather than to universal access, but if universal access is part of what makes the community gardens feel spontaneous to you, then I would agree that no housing arrangement is going to accomplish the same thing.
    Posted 12 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • From the OP: " I can suggest many ways to keep the mechanics of the Comunity Gardens intact but giving the farmer a little advantage without being unfair with the dudes that loves to steal stuff: 
    - A cooldown timer in wich the herb or crop can only be picked by the one who plant it, maybe 15 - 30 seconds of cooldown, and after that is up for grabs."

    Your first suggestion does not 'keep the mechanics of the community garden intact', at all. It turns the community garden into a private garden for the person planting. There are already far more private gardens in the game than community ones, some of us want to keep the few communal ones actually communal.

    OP: "- Big objects that can block view like the gameshow Wheel is innactive inside the gardens. Or make them transparent.- Glitchens should be transparent while standing in front of a comunity garden plot, making easy to see what´s behind them."

    You can still get to things behind these objects and people, just like anywhere else in the game. If a person or object is blocking the view, it does so for everyone equally, I don't see how its 'unfair', or why this needs to be a special case.

    Your complaints about harassment only make sense from the viewpoint that you have the 'right' to pick first because you planted. If you assume you don't have any more right to pick than anyone else (because its a community garden, not your private garden) then there is no problem.
    Posted 12 months ago by Lukie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lukie: Seriously, I need to edit that OP, it just doesn´t fit anymore in what this thread has come to be now, is obvious that people keeps reffering to the OP instead of following the conversation from point A to point M.

    Or I can open a new thread treating the current issue in discusion, something I don´t really think is better.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Parrow Gnolle - Can you tell me where staff has commented on this thread?  (Not meant to be a challenge.  I don't see a staff comment in the thread itself, so I'm just interested in knowing to what you were referring.)
    Posted 12 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Done, Opening Post edited to keep this conversation on the tracks.

    Old one still available here: 

    docs.google.com/document/d/...
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Correct me if it's wrong, but the original argument seems to be:

    "The way the herb gardens are set up now makes people frustrated beyond a reasonable level at the activities of other players, who are doing things they should not be allowed to do. This should be changed."

    There are a lot of implicit arguments in there, so some of the responses have addressed those implicit arguments.

    There were also some insults and off-topic posts. I am not defending all of the responses, but I just wanted to reiterate a few that I have seen, which I think deserve consideration:

    The important word in "common decency" isn't decency, but common--there has to be a common agreement of what is right and wrong in order to say that an activity violates common decency. I don't think it is off topic to discuss which of the activities that took place in the OP were right or wrong. I also do not think that there is consensus amongst players about what is right and wrong in herb gardens (however--I just have to point this out--a lack of agreement does not mean that all interpretations are equally valid.)

    Using the herb gardens in a 'plant-what-you-want, harvest-what-you-see, replant-what-you-want' model, rather than the plant-camp-and-harvest model which the OP has said he was using, reduces the degree of frustration to which people are exposed because it reduces the expectation that a given resource in a community space belongs to a given player. I do not think that this statement is off-topic. It gets at the idea of "frustration beyond a reasonable level." If the herbs do not belong to you, frustration at not harvesting them would likely be at a more manageable level than if you feel they have been "stolen." I also do not think that discussion of whether this is true, and the impact this model could have is off topic--because saying that would mean we are making claims while suggesting that the discussion of those claims is off limits, and that makes no sense.

    Purchasing bog houses, while not a perfect solution, reduces the overall degree of frustration to which people are exposed in their herb planting activities. It reduces frustration associated with planting herbs in the way which the OP has said he was planting them to zero. If you feel that the plant-camp-harvest model is the best one, it is possible to do this in a safe and inexpensive space without any changes whatsoever to game mechanics. I do not think that this statement is off-topic, either. And even if it is off-topic, I don't think we can call it trolling. 

    It is possible that some degree of causing non-desirable outcomes for other players does not violate the bounds of community guidelines, while other degrees do. It is not productive to say that the activities described in the OP and subsequent posts must be accepted or rejected wholesale. I don't think it is off-topic or trolling to treat the activities as separate rather than one action and suggest that some were right, some were wrong-but-not-griefing, and that some were wrong and griefing.

    It is okay for this game to be frustrating sometimes, even if it is frustrating because of other players. I think we differ on this one, at the core. Basically, some players are okay with the idea of circumventable "locked doors"--that players choose whether it will be easy for them to harvest crops or herbs, and that it is slightly more difficult to harvest the other one whenever they'd like. I think some of us are more comfortable with the idea that in situations where there is competition for resources, one of the players involved will not see their ideal outcome. 

    I don't think that community gardens' mechanics should be tweaked to discourage people from picking herbs planted by other people, as I don't characterize that as griefing. I don't characterize "non-generous uses" of shared resources as griefing, either--I don't think that it should be made impossible to benefit from a system that encourages generosity without being generous yourself.

    (Note: I was writing this ridiculous behemoth while the original post was being edited to reflect changes in the conversation, but some of the points still address the original post. Please to be considering ;))
    Posted 12 months ago by Pomegrandy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Pomegrandy: Lemme get my reading glasses and a cup of coffee to read that wall-o-text o_O!
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mikah wrote: " I feel that the constant repetition of the mantra "the rules are the rules, nothing is going to change, stop whining" does not constitute any kind of contribution to this issue, ..."

    I would like to second this. For the record, I don't agree that people should "own" the community plots that they plant. OTOH, people who want/need to use the community gardens (which is why they exist, no?) do have an expectation of getting a harvest - and that expectation is reasonable. If they are feeling frustrated because they are unable to get their hands on a harvest, I'd rather they were treated with more compassion - not because they are "right", but because it's rough luck. A little sympathy would not be out of place, IMO.
    Posted 12 months ago by Flowerry Pott Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Flowerry Pott: I hate when someone composes my own ideas in a simpler, elegant and better way than me :)
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The current title of this thread is:

    Stop the griefing in the Comunity Herb Gardens

    The way to handle griefing is to report the behavior to staff.  Griefing is not allowed in this game.  

    If it is not griefing, then trying to paint someone's behavior as rule-breaking actions that the staff is ignoring is a sly way to discredit staff, and try to impose your rules instead of theirs.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn: You should check your computer for virus, it looks like your are posting the same thing over and over again. Avast! antivirus is a very good one, and is free.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Pomegrandy: Well, after carefully reading your post I think I can give you a decent response, gonna break it in little snippets to make it easier to read.

    About this one: "Using the herb gardens in a 'plant-what-you-want, harvest-what-you-see, replant-what-you-want' model, rather than the plant-camp-and-harvest model ...reduces the degree of frustration ... because it reduces the expectation that a given resource in a community space belongs to a given player"

    I can give you this other one as a rebuttal, because is what ACTUALLY happens in the Herb Gardens: "People see people planting, and naturally, they know that if they get at the harvest before the other person does, it causes grief.  Minor grief, yes, but distress is distress.  Sure, no one is entitled to what they plant per se, and anyone can harvest whatever they want, but that does not prevent the core issue, it is causing strife altogether."
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Take a deep breath, guys.  Imagine you and a buddy are playing the same game together and your buddy's like "Man, I'm out of quests and am bored.  Let's play steal the herb."  You'd be like "No, honey buns, that's mean!"  And he be like "I'll buy you a beer."  And then you drink your beers and laugh about how angry the other players get and how you got to be a bully in an unreal world with unreal possessions.  And the next day you forget about it.  Was that really that mean?  Were your lost herbs and 10 mins really worth that much more than a couple of buds being dumb together?  I'm not saying it's ok to do on regular basis but we all get the sillys every now and then.
    Posted 12 months ago by CosmicBitFlip Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mikah have you noticed how condescending your responses to people are? My thoughts at this point are that you are deliberately antagonizing people. If I am mistaken, reread your responses to many...you come across as a condescending jerk.
    Posted 12 months ago by Anya Karenya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sorry Cosmic but I disagree. Cruelty in any form because your "bored" or "drunk" is not a good excuse. Why be mean anytime? What does it accomplish but instant gratification for the moment but lasting impression with getting a bad name? Don't forget the very same people that performed said one time act may end up being the butt end of another person's same sort of joke and feel just as victimized as their victim felt and you can bet you will hear about it too.

    It is a vicious cycle that is sad and distressing.
    Posted 12 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Pomegrandy:
    "The important word in "common decency" isn't decency, but common--there has to be a common agreement of what is right and wrong in order to say that an activity violates common decency. I don't think it is off topic to discuss which of the activities that took place in the OP were right or wrong. I also do not think that there is consensus amongst players about what is right and wrong in herb gardens (however--I just have to point this out--a lack of agreement does not mean that all interpretations are equally valid.)"

    I endorse this point of view: "If they (users of the gardens) are feeling frustrated because they are unable to get their hands on a harvest, I'd rather they were treated with more compassion - not because they are "right", but because it's rough luck. A little sympathy would not be out of place"
    The Herb Gardens were created for everyone to use and everyone to harvest trying to create an enviroment where ppl should leave behind free herbs for others to take... and as far as I can tell none of the glitches that I have met in the gardens (and myself) wants to use them in that way, they want to use them to:

    1.- Plant something for themselves.

    2.- and THEN leave some herbs behind.

    Tiny Speck created the space for one reason and people just don´t NEED to use them for the reason intended. There is no need to use them that way. Is a fictional need. People needs a space to plant their herbs.

    See?
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Liliac: Let me tell you something that might sound stupid: I don´t speak english.

    ... stupid, right? but sadly, the true.

    I live in South America and never been to the States or England, I learned english all by myself and never taken even a single english class outside HigSchool.  

    I can´t SPEAK english to save my life, my accent is awful and Tarzan-like. 

    I can READ and UNDERSTAND entire conversations withouth any problem, watch movies, tv series, read entire books in english without missing a thing. 

    Now writting... that´s a different story. Writing I got to cope with the worst and the best of my limited habilities. I know the words, I know what I want to say, but most of the time I end writing stuff with a different tone or meaning (or no tone at all), and even end up with the right words in the worst order possible.

    Couple this with the inheret lack of tone in electronic messages and voilá! you can be an instant jerk withouth even noticing.

    I will try to be more careful with my expressions, but I cannot guarantee anything.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink