Topic

Is higher energy tank linked to anything positive?

I previously stepped into threads to defend going up levels and increasing energy tank as a net benefit based on the fact that it was linked to quoin value.  Now that it is de-linked to that, you can estimate whether max energy is good for you by whether 3.2 x hours played per game day + teleports < 10.  For those of us who often play more than 2 hours at a stretch it usually won't be.  If you play 3 hours in one game day then it pretty much surely isn't.

So basically buying energy tank is a bad thing.  If there was a card to decrease my energy tank, I would buy that (I want about 1k just so I can season full stacks of beans and such conveniently).  Is there something we are unaware that makes maximum energy a benefit to everyone, or is it only a benefit to those who play in short play sessions?

Posted 7 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Another con of higher energy is that your max mood increases also, which makes it harder to stay happy all the time. Once I figured that out I stopped getting energy upgrades.
    Posted 7 months ago by Omnika Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Could you explain the equation a bit more? I'm kinda tired and all brain-swimmy right now.
    Posted 7 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Every day you get a full tank of energy so that's 100% to spend

    You lose 0.8% every 90 seconds = 32% per hour

    Teleporting is 10%

    So if 32% times hours + 10% time teleports is more than 100% then the more energy you have the less energy you have to spend.
    Posted 7 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Isn't the maximum amount of extra energy you can gain per day also linked to energy tank?
    Posted 7 months ago by Akhen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow. That's wildly counterintuitive.
    Posted 7 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Akhen - just the extra from meditating.  You can eat as much food as you want.
    Posted 7 months ago by Aurora Dellaterra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Huh??  ... I'm soooo confuuuused.  ~O.o~
    Posted 7 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is a limit that you can gain from eating food too. Although I've never reached it so I can't tell you what it is.
    Posted 7 months ago by SkyWaitress Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But, the energy cost for many activities area not pegged to max energy tank, rite? If that's true, then the higher tank provides some benefits.
    Posted 7 months ago by Chinny the Unlikely Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The amount of iMG, energy, or mood you receive from an icon is also tied to your level; but so are tithes.  So for higher levels, you could possibly accrue more iMG daily while also paying higher tithes if your energy bank is higher.
    Posted 7 months ago by Scarlett Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think Scarlett just hit on something there...
    Posted 7 months ago by Mal'akh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • NVM, i was wrong here.
    Posted 7 months ago by Clockwork Rabbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh I see.  (?)
    Posted 7 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Still confused.  {sigh}
    Posted 7 months ago by Tibbi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No kidding. Iz way funkusing.
    Posted 7 months ago by Chinny the Unlikely Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You do have a limit of food that is tied to max energy, but it is quite high, so if you have 1k energy or so you won't hit it much.

    Meditation is also linked to max energy but meditating for more than 15 minutes of a game day seems like an awful lot, so again around 1k energy is probably enough.
    Posted 7 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Waa waa waaaa http://i.imgur.com/kf3iX.png

    how will I ever choose
    Posted 7 months ago by Csophae Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wait.

    Task A costs 999 energy
    Energy Tank A = 1000
    Energy Tank B = 4000

    Is the argument in this thread is that Energy Tank A is preferred as you don't incur the cost of the upgrades?

    Is the counter argument that the convenience of being able to do Task A 4x is worth the added cost?

    I'm upgrading my tank to spite this thread every time I get the card.
    Posted 7 months ago by Joe Blow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Joe, I don't think it's the iMG cost of the upgrades, but the increased costs of energy. The key issues are:
    1. Teleporting is still 10% of your max tank, thus it would cost 400 energy to TP for Tank B instead of 100 energy for Tank A.
    2. Mood tank goes up as energy tank goes up too, while the energy/mood rot is also based on a %. It'll be more tiring and costly to keep up mood if one is interested in max rewards.
    Posted 7 months ago by TomC Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One benefit is AL runs. In one AL run, you can fill up any size energy tank conceivable, for free. The bigger your energy tank, the more free energy you can get by this method. Keep one TP point in the AL's, and another in your primary area of grinding, wherever that may be, and you basically have an unlimited energy supply without ever having to eat. (especially when combined with higher quoin multipliers and limits) And the food you get from springing traps pretty much negates the cost of TP'ing back.
    Posted 7 months ago by Jus​tin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mood management is completely broken with higher max mood. To get full exp, you have to be at least 90% mood. Because it's percentage-based, the more you max it, the more you need to drink to keep it maintained. Also, because the mood decay is percentage based, it decays in massive chunks more than when the max mood was low.

    Having a higher maximum mood does absolutely nothing beneficial right now. You will get the same iMG with 100/100 mood as you would with 3600/3600 mood.

    At 100/100 mood, it decays very slowly, about 1.5 points every 90 seconds. When it gets below 90/100, you start losing iMG gain (You'll get 11 instead of 12 from animal interactions, for example). However, just 2 milks would fill ya right up from 89% to 100%. Getting 12 iMG again from animal interactions with very minimal amount of drinkage.

    At 3600/3600 mood, it decays very rapidly, I just watched it go from 3600 to 3546. That's 54 mood lost. To recover 90 seconds worth of mood decay, I would have to drink 9 milks! How much iMG do I gain for animal interactions at 3600/3600 mood? 12. Just like if I had 100/100. However, if it gets below 3240 (which will happen easily in 10 minutes time), I only get 11 iMG from those interactions. Just like if I had under 90/100. To restore the missing 360 mood needed to give me 100% mood and full XP again, I'd have to chug 60 milk!

    So, we are 100% being punished for expanding our energy tank (previously, we were punished just for levelling up!) by having worse and worse mood management.

    If I am crafting, mining, tinkering, interacting with anything that isn't a living critter basically... every 10 minutes I have to chug 60 butterfly milk to maintain my mood. A savory smoothie would fix it, but it takes time for the savory smoothie's effect to fully kick in. That is just tedious and awkward.

    Unlike animal interactions, where I'm losing out on only 1 iMG per action but regain mood naturally from said actions, crafting provides a much larger amount of iMG but provides NO natural mood gains.This iMG is also lost in much larger amounts as your mood decreases. I get 50(!) less iMG per batch of 40 tasty pasta if my mood is just under 90%.

    In the time it took me to write and refine this post, my mood dropped to 2790 already, from 3600. That's 135 butterfly milk. That's just pure punishment. We need 'awesome fruity juice' or something that gives a large amount of mood for fewer units. Kinda like Awesome Stew/Tasty Pasta are to energy.

    So yeah, if a dev could kindly explain how having a higher mood cap is beneficial in any way, would be nice. :)
    Posted 7 months ago by Lorraine ♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Are the tank upgrades cumulative?    

    I'm enjoying the lessened TP costs and the easier mood. 
    Posted 7 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  Lorraine ♪,  there's always Rookswort to combat mood loss.
    Posted 7 months ago by Mal'akh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Mal'akh: I am aware. It's the principle of the matter, however. Normally, when you perform an upgrade on anything in a game, it's supposed to provide a benefit, correct? I mean, there's a reason, a balance for it. Higher max energy provides more energy to perform heavy actions, such as grinding and crafting, for longer periods of time. Also lets you perform a lot more ordinary actions in the world before running out. Higher max energy is also supplemented by foods that provide a lot more energy per unit, with instant results upon eating. Managing energy is relatively painless, and there is good incentive to raise its limit.

    Mood, on the other hand, as I've outlined above, has zero benefits when the cap on it is raised. In fact, it becomes a detriment, becoming harder to maintain. Harder to maintain without an appropriate tradeoff. If they made higher max mood give additional bonus to iMG (instead of it being based purely on your mood level %), that would help. That's not the case currently, and you had no choice but to endure the max mood increase when levelling up in the past. You don't have a choice in the matter when increasing your energy tank as well.
    Posted 7 months ago by Lorraine ♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This, while mathematically impressive,  seems like it'd only be an issue if all you did was stand around and teleport.
    Posted 7 months ago by E D D I E Subscriber! | Permalink
  • sorry Sys Rq, but your missing the point. This is an issue if You (or any glitch) want the maximum imagination possible from all interactions. The higher your energy level (and thus your mood) the harder it becomes to keep your mood at the max. So to keep it simple large amounts of mood is bad for everyone, if you care about gaining iMG (you know for all the cool new upgrades)

    Boaz
    Posted 7 months ago by Boaz Jachin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i too find trying to maintain mood torturous. 

    adding to the increasingly severe decay are cumbersome controls. to even drink beverages or munch on rookswort you must do a series of keyboard or mouse actions that really gets maddeningly tedious. it's like trying to row a boat upstream with a pair of toothpicks as paddles. hotkeys would go a long way to alleviate this but wouldn't change the fact that if you're at all concerned with maximising the amount of iMG gained increasing your energy pool is not a smart move.

    currently the disadvantages (mood & energy decay, increase in tp and tithe cost) outweigh the meagre advantages of more energy.
    Posted 7 months ago by Fur Subscriber! | Permalink
  • yeah, in this case it looks like the more you gain the more you actually use... which is weird... %-/ I guess we have to pay the price.
    Posted 7 months ago by Posh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Clever people (those with lots of imagination) are more prone to depression.

    Just sayin'

    ;)
    Posted 7 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This is a complicated thread.
    Posted 7 months ago by Palindrome Subscriber! | Permalink
  • All this makes sense, it seems to me, only if you are focused on maximizing your efficiency at playing the game. Why bother? The whole point of Glitch is to do, explore and have fun. I do the stuff I want to do. If my mood or energy get lower than I like then I zip to /home and refresh them from my icons. I tithe my icons whenever they ask me to, and the the stuff I do keeps my currants where I want them. I should say too, that my feeling is the bigger my energy tank got as I leveled up the less often I had to worry about running out of energy.
    Posted 7 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The only other thing that hasn't been mentioned about high energy cap being good is when using No No powder. It refills you all the way but once you have like 1500 energy max its very hard to spend it quick enough to beat the burn out clock to death.
    Posted 7 months ago by Melting Sky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Creating food, beverages or herbs that refill a percentage of your health would fix this problem. Rookswort isn't bad if you can remember to keep dosing it when it runs out.
    Posted 7 months ago by Melting Sky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • but once you have like 1500 energy max its very hard to spend it quick enough to beat the burn out clock to death.

    Grinding rocks usually does it for me  - until you've died so many times in a day that you can't start to grind before you die after sniffing 
    Posted 7 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have no trouble keeping my mood high. Do different stuff.
    Posted 7 months ago by HeyGabe Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Do different stuff" is not useful advice for people who are having trouble with mood.  If you are harvesting trees and animals your mood will stay high, if you are mining and crafting it will not.  Are you saying that mining and crafting is the wrong way to play?

    I understand that more energy means you can do more things, but it also means it decays more quickly over time.  If you play for two hours then you will have started with 100% energy and lost 64% of that to decay, meaning you have 36% of your maximum energy to spend that day based on your energy tank.  If you play for three hours in a single game day then you lose 96% to decay, meaning you only have 4% left - so if you teleport once you are better off with a smaller tank.

    Depending on how you play the game and how much you play the game, maximum energy might be a clear benefit to you.  If you play for one hour at a time then maximum energy is a great upgrade.  If you almost never teleport then it's probably good.  However, because the math behind maximum energy is arcane and we cannot expect players who don't read the forums to know it, I think that increasing maximum energy should be unambiguously good.

    As a side: Melting Sky - Yes, No-no powder makes max energy better and that may be a real benefit to consider.  Making crabs happy makes it better but clearly we won't consider that.  The new get out of hell free cards make it better and that might be extremely relevant.
    Posted 7 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it'd be cool if energy tank and mood were de-linked from each other, and maybe you could somehow downgrade one or the other as well. I don't teleport much so I don't mind having a huge energy tank linked to the huge teleport cost, but the large percentage-based mood decreases do become hard to handle depending on what I'm doing.
    Posted 7 months ago by Touya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Boaz:  So you get some mood quoins, or pet some things, or meditate, and get more mood than you would if the cap were lower.

    Now, that said, if you're in the mines, yes, you're screwed.  Especially with the "new and improved" super slow mining.
    Posted 7 months ago by E D D I E Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Humbabella thank you so much for doing the math for this!

    Personally, I love teleporting and I find the AL extremely boring, so for me the choice is clear.  Too bad I currently have 3 energy tank upgrade cards in front of me and no more reshuffles :(
    Posted 7 months ago by Miss Portinari Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sys Rq, the problem is that if you get quoins, pet things or meditate you do not get more mood than you would if your cap were lower, you get the same amount.

    If I'd spend as much on energy tank upgrades as I have on quoin value upgrades then I'd have almost 8k energy and mood.  That means I'd be losing mood at a rate of 40 per minute.  So to keep my mood up I'd need to get 3 moon quoins a minute (maxing out my quoins per day in under an hour) or focus mood meditation for 13.3 seconds out of every minute (22% of my play time).  Sure, if I run down the street nibbling piggies and milking butterflies then I'd be fine, but just because those activities give massive doses of mood doesn't mean that having more mood isn't bad.  It's only not bad if you are interacting with animals constantly.

    The higher your mood the more mood you lose per minute, but activities that generate mood do not give out more.  If you got your energy tank to 20k then you'd be losing 100 mood a minute and there would be no way to keep up (aside from chugging savory smoothies - the only % based mood increase).

    These are extreme examples, but the problem exists at all levels of mood.  The more mood you have the worse it is for you.

    @Miss Portinari: I am doing a much more detailed analysis of the issue for my blog.  Many of the things people have raised here are valid, and figuring out how much of a difference they make is complex.  The question is whether time, teleports and mood are bad enough that they outweight daily refills, no-no crashes, get out of hell free cards, and the ability to top up more in AL or from icons.
    Posted 7 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As I'm still determined to live, I'm digging the larger tank, even if it's linked to mood. Before upgrading yesterday, I came within a squeak of dying because I'm not yet used to the new interface and my tank was much smaller than I'd been used to. I teleport a lot and never got out of the habit of keeping up energy and mood, so my actions and habits won't be changing much. My gameplay might not use the most mathematically- or energy-efficient method, but I'm okay with that. I hope you-all manage to find an optimum that works for you!
    Posted 7 months ago by Voluptua Sneezelips Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think one of the things that's confusing is that the game is heading towards specialization, but the upkeep of mood/energy isnt the same for all of the activities one can do in the game. As mentioned above, if you want to specialize in mining &/or crafting the inability to gain mood from that activity becomes a bit of a hinderance and deters one from specializing completely. Maybe that's also part of the intention, not to be completely specialized??
    Posted 7 months ago by matrix Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My visits to the Ancestral Lands since iMG switch seem to suggest that using them to tank up on energy doesn't work anywhere near as well as it used to.
    Posted 7 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks Humbabella :)
    Posted 7 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Pascale: Quoin multiplier took a much larger hit than energy tank did.  Without buying upgrades being converted from level 60 dropped your energy from 2860 to 1610, but it dropped your quoin multiplier from 28.6 to just over 12.  So your quoin multiplier dropped to about 75% of what it was relative to you maximum energy.  If you increase your energy that will get more pronounced.  (Edit: Quoin value at level 42 after the conversion was 12.6)

    Fortunately the 2M imagination you got in the conversion will buy plenty of quoin multiplier.  Mine is into the high 30's now, making quoins more effective in an absolute sense and much more effective relative to my maximum energy.  I think I fill up on an average of 3 AL energy quoins.

    And if you'd like to read the full description of where these numbers come from, my first blog post on buying energy upgrades is up: http://mathemaglitch.blogspot.ca/2012/05/maximum-energy-basics.html
    Posted 7 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To get full exp, you have to be at least 90% mood. Because it's percentage-based, the more you max it, the more you need to drink to keep it maintained.

    They're trying to turn us into alchoholics!   

    I mix in focus mood, rookswort and the occasional drink while I mine or mix.  My mood tank was cut in half and now it's much easier to bump it back up than it was pre-switch. 
    Posted 7 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Humbabella, I *really* appreciate all the number-crunching you do in mathemaglitch! 
    Posted 7 months ago by Aviatrix Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks Humbabella!

    Also, for those who say "do something else", "pet things", "get quoins", or go to AL the point of this isn't that we don't know *how* to keep the mood up. Rather than the game penalizes us all for higher energy/mood.

    If you are not experiencing mood loss that needs to be "fixed" then your gameplay is what the devs are encouraging as "better". Pet things in bright places or consume far more resources to watch that mood obsessively. 

    Hawkwell "All this makes sense, it seems to me, only if you are focused on maximizing your efficiency at playing the game" and later". The whole point of Glitch is to do, explore and have fun."

    Have you considered that playing at maximum efficiency IS fun? That you like exploring the graphics and some people like exploring the mechanics?

    For some people "This is a complicated thread."Palindrome and either was tired or just wants to chuck it all....for other people it's "really?! lemme check those numbers! *omnomnom algebra*

    Different strokes for different folks.
    Posted 7 months ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dagnabbit.  I thought I was getting energy only when I bought that card.  Mood and energy linked is a bad, bad thing.  I'm glad I've only upgraded by 120 mood/energy.  If I had a choice I'd imagine a Glitch with about 500 mood and 1500 energy.
    Posted 7 months ago by Lucille Ball Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Less food eaten?
    Posted 7 months ago by AwesomeCardinal2000 Subscriber! | Permalink
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