I have never cared that someone helped me mine before or after the tweeks in mining. I don't feel that a rock in an open world is mine just because I got there first, but I understand that everyone does not feel the same way, everyone has their own personal preference in the way they do things. If someone does help me mine, I look at it as a chance to make a new friend.
I frankly don't care if I'm helping, being helped, or going solo. If I'm in a laggy situation I will almost certainly go solo because I just can't move between rocks fast enough. I'd rather just stay at the rock, mine away, and know I'm not holding somebody else up if they wait for me to help at the next rock. Similarly I may be playing very casually (this means I'm watching the TV as well, or doing something else) and I just click as and when I feel like it. Is that a problem for anybody?
@Travinara: so true! I had a group of 4 people and we all (without having planned it) unspokenly mined the same rocks. I stop once I get 10 full 16 slot bags, and it took me nearly half the time to do it.
there is a subsection of players that cannot seem to think outside the "per rock" method of assessing productivity, thus cupcake's statement about ajaya bliss being a horrible place to cooperatively mine when in fact it is probably the very best place, in terms of productivity.
fortunately, I think this is simply a holdover from ingrained heuristic biases and cognitive shortcuts developed by the pre-coop-mining playerbase.
I was in ajaya bliss the last day of testing, coop mining with a new player who said "wow! you use much less energy mining in this cave!", believing that it was a property of the cave itself, not of the constant coop mining he was participating in.
as players join, not training themselves to thing in relatively meaningless "chunks per rock" terms but instead relevant "energy and time per chunk" terms, I think this problem may solve itself over time.
agreed though, that an early coop mining based quest would speed this along.
Maybe it comes down to a difference in psychology between people. I would hate to have forced co-operation. I like to work solo much of the time when playing games. I don't despise those who need others to work with, nor do I see why they should despise my way of doing things.
In RL I work co-operatively as a member of a team as is required of me. I don't mind because that is the nature of the work. In games, which I do for my own amusement, I do not expect to have choices like that made for me. Why should others inflict their views on me? Forced co-operation is as bad as forced isolation.
I play Glitch for relaxation from a life which has many demands on me. Other people whom I must consider and care for all the time. I don't want to have that kind of imposition in an online game for which I pay to play.
If I don't want to mine with someone else why should I. I can and will leave. I don't care about the rewards, I don't play for the highest score or the most bonuses or the greatest yield, I play to amuse myself. It doesn't amuse me if people intrude on me if I don't feel like it, but I don't worry about it, I can just go away if I want to. Maybe I will feel like a bit of socialising sometimes, that is my choice, not anyone else's.
Some people seem to think that there is only one version of the game. I think there are hundreds, all different and all available to everyone at any time. Causing grief is a choice, and one I would never choose, but it is there for those who want it. Telling others how to play and what to think is a choice, but I would not do it myself. (Oddly - or maybe not - it sometimes seems to be those who want co-operation who also want to inflict it on others! A strange kind of co-operation IMV)
If one mines purely for the gain in currants, gems, whatever, then it matters; I suppose; that one obtains the maximum, so by all means work that out using maths. But I don't see that as the biggest problem. Some of us just want to go our own way inour own way and IMV that is not wrong - just another choice.
cassandria, no one is telling you that it is wrong for you to like mining alone.
so long as you don't call other people creepy, selfish, stalkery, expect them to ask permission every time they run up to a rock, feel a sense of ownership over a rock simply because you ran up to it first or have a misunderstanding of the mechanics of mining and blame helpers for denying you chunks .. well then i don't think anyone has a problem with that.
nor is anyone attempting to "force" you to cooperate. no one here has said that if they run up to a rock and start helping you mining that you are expected to stay put and "help". no one here has expressed any problem with you simply walking away.
indeed, it has been suggested that if you simply say "i'd prefer to mine alone, thank you", without presumptively expecting people ask permission in advance of doing something which very few people do not feel a benefit from, that they would simply back off and find another rock.
@Cassandria - a well written post that, I'm sure, reflects the views of many players. I totally agree when you say it appears as though the pro-sharing group seem to inflict their views on people way more than other sections of the community.
So just to recap...as long as you don't call anyone any names, have any expectations of them asking if they can share the rock you are working on, feel that is it your rock in anyway shape or form, have miscalculated the percentage of rocks to be gained by your endeavours or blame someone for taking a part of "your" rock...you will be allowed to have your own viewpoint. Don't you feel special now?
Maybe we should have to sign a terms and conditions contract to such effect before even being allowed near a rock....as long as you agree to all terms, then you may be allowed, a smidgen of free thought....within those boundaries of course!
I do find the comment about asking to mine alone interesting..let me see if I have this straight...
If player a was happily mining a rock and player b came along, it would be wrong and presumptuous for player a to expect player b to politely ask if they can join them. It would also be a total waste of player b's time as they have far better things to be doing.
But if player a wanted to be left to mine alone, the onus should be on them to ask player b to let them mine alone...therefore creating a rather awkward situation - and one that is probably too late - as by now, player b will more than likely also be mining already.
"you will be allowed to have your own viewpoint. Don't you feel special now?"
no. you are always be "allowed to have your own viewpoint".
it's just that everything you mention in there is either wrong by being ..
a] a clear mathematical miscalculation
or
b] baselessly harmful or insulting to other players
i think it is funny that you've gone from trying to control other people's play by insisting they ask permission every time they approach a rock with another person on it .. to suggesting that you are being persecuted simply because a player gets off a swing at a *public* rock before they are asked to stop and do so.
No, what's interesting is your persistence in painting anyone here out to be 'bad' or 'wrong' for not asking to mine or for wanting to mine cooperatively or for explaining how the game mechanics actually works (and game mechanics are not the same as how you want to play).
Despite that it makes no rational sense to want to mine alone, you have every right to do so. Go solo mine. We're not telling you what to do, we're explaining how the game works. If you don't care how the game works, great, but don't paint this as people telling you what to do and denying your 'freedom'.
In fact, it's yours to have the opinion that people should ask before mining. That opinion and expectation will bring you disappointment at times, but you have to accept that disappointment as part and parcel of your opinion and that it's your responsibility to handle feeling let down because of a choice you made - responsibility: a concept inherent in any discussion of freedom.
I also get to have the opinion that it's silly to mine alone, and my opinion doesn't take any freedom away from you.
But go ahead, do come back and inform us of how 'special' we ought to feel for not sharing your opinion.
"If player a was happily mining a rock and player b came along, it would be wrong and presumptuous for player a to expect player b to politely ask if they can join them. It would also be a total waste of player b's time as they have far better things to be doing."
yes. and further, it would be a waste of player a's time to have to respond, since the vast majority of the time player is going to *want* the help asap due to the coop mining mechanic!
striatic, I recently posted in another thread that if and when this game becomes too serious it will lose appeal for many people - there are some people that need to chill out a bit...
You seem to have some difficulty understanding my posts so I shall recap for you....
People have different viewpoints, I have mine, you have yours and I'm sure other people have theirs too. Having a viewpoint is one thing - trying to enforce it on others is something else altogether. I do not *expect* anyone to ask permission - all I have said is that *in my opinion*, I would prefer that....just as you are free to disagree with me.
As regards the comment about being persecuted, this would infer that I take your comments and opinions to heart, which I don't - I disagree with your views and don't like the way you jump on people that disagree with you. As has already been stated, there are probably hundreds of different ways to play this game. I'm afraid you will just have to live with the fact that they won't all coincide with your viewpoint.
"As has already been stated, there are probably hundreds of different ways to play this game. I'm afraid you will just have to live with the fact that they won't all coincide with your viewpoint."
i stated before that it has nothing to do with "different".
lots of people play in different ways that might not be "optimal" in my opinion but i do not particularly care. i understand that there are things beyond efficiency that people care about.
the problem isn't that your viewpoint "doesn't coincide" with mine. the problem is that your viewpoint is antagonistic and places an expectation on other players. it is not merely "different", it places unfair expectations on other players.
if someone doesn't ask first, you consider them to be rude, and expect everyone ask first out of common courtesy.. even tho if i was the "player a" in your scenario, which i very often am, i do not appreciate the burden of having to respond when someone asks to join.
my viewpoint expects *nothing*. if you leave the scene? fine. if you ask to be left alone? fine. if you keep mining cooperatively because despite not liking it as much it is still okay? fine. if you decide to only "mine", but never "help mine"? fine.
whatever you want to do, it is fine. fine fine fine fine fine.
not only "fine" .. but non-rude and good on you for playing your own way.
but implying that someone is being rude, selfish or stalkery because by default they are trying to mine in such a way that maximises the mechanical benefit for both players .. that's not fine. whatever you elect to do in terms of gameplay will not upset anyone.. whereas expecting people to ask permission does, in fact, affect gameplay.
Ummm you still don't get it do you? I don't expect anything from anyone, I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this for you...on second thoughts I won't bother, it's getting kinda old now.
"Having a viewpoint is one thing - trying to enforce it on others is something else altogether. I do not *expect* anyone to ask permission - all I have said is that *in my opinion*, I would prefer that".
You said that in your most recent post, yet I have seen you not only in this forum but in the game call other people rude for not asking permission. Maybe we don't speak the same language, because in the English language calling someone rude is an insult and can be considered as you *expecting* someone to follow your style of game play. And if they don't you will publicly insult and humiliate them.
If you're mining in Ilmenskie, where there are lots of rocks of all types, what striatic is saying is logical; however, I almost never go to Ilmenskie. I live at Tallish Crest Quarter, so when I need elements to make shrine powder, I go to Tallish Crest, mine one or both of the sparkly rocks on that street, plus the single dullite rock there, grind the ore, and stir a powder.
Before this last test, I was getting 50 pieces per rock. During the last test, whether it was due to finishing the mining skill tree or due to the change in the mining system, I was getting 54 to 57 pieces per rock. Hooray!
Let's say I've started to mine the dullite rock, and there are now 15 pieces of it in my bag. I can expect another 35 or more if I continue to mine by myself. If someone else starts mining the same rock, I can expect maybe 20 more. There's no other dullite around. We could theoretically hop from rock to rock together, giving each other small bonuses and singing Kumbaya, but I have no interest in mining the metal rocks on the street, and there's nothing else left.
So essentially, I thought I'd lucked out and found a full 50+ pieces of dullite, but now I have maybe 35 and can't finish the powder I was trying to make so I could finish my donations before daybreak. This doesn't bring me joy. Am I going to cry about it? No. I'll just find some other rock, or wait for that one to regenerate... but in this situation, co-mining helps the other person, and is detrimental to me. Sometimes I feel like helping other people, and sometimes I don't. If that's selfish, fine. I spend a lot of time helping others -- sometimes more time than I spend actually playing the game -- so I don't mind being selfish once in a while.
Also, it is sad to me that the devs came up with such a brilliant solution to the mining debate that holds the values of the game, such as community involvement, and some people are STILL finding ways to complain. I guess as far as mining goes some people just can't be satisfied until they can achieve a complete reclusion from all other players.
@glum: in that situation it can be detrimental, but honestly most people who are mining have more options than just one or two rocks. And by all means, be "selfish". My problem here is being insulted by other people when I am just trying to help and share.
what do you do if you go to that location and another player is mining the rock you want to mine?
do you leave the street to find a different sparkly rock?
because if so we get into the same situation as before, where it is better for you both to cooperatively mine the first rock, then move together to the second one.
y'see, you're basing your totals based on solo play. once another player shows up at your rock, everything changes. you can no longer rely on the 50+. either you leave the first rock and get the same amount at a second rock .. or you coop the first rock, coop the second rock and end up with a greater amount.
anyway ..
do you have the right [or even the ability] to shoo them away because you were at the rock first?
what if they were at the rock first? what do you do?
also if you do get around 55ish chunks you still get 5ish more per rocks through coop against 2 rocks. the per rock output isn't the only relevant factor for efficiency tho.. look carefully at your energy expenditure per chunk when going solo versus going coop.
stoot said something about "not having to finish the nub" as an additional positive factor when mining coop. i don't fully understand that particular mechanic, but i believe it means a lower overall energy expenditure to finish off the rock.
stri - I think he's referring to the 'final action'. When mining cooperatively, each player receives rock chunks with their last action. I have managed to button mash fast enough to start 'helping mine' and get the indicator going... but the rock 'ran out' during the process. Before you'd be charged the energy and get the xp, now the indicator just goes away. You are not charged the energy, so you really only lose a few seconds.
Theoretically... with cooperative mining the 'nub' could yield 10 rock chunks and a 'reward' each, plus the bonus chunk for the help.. pushing the rock 'potential' from a flat 50 to a dynamic 50-70ish. Still haven't seen what happens when you put 30 people on a single rock, or 50. From a solo perspective, it means that final 'nub' is worth up to 10 chunks, pushing the initial rock 'capacity' to 59 from a flat 50. You never quite know how much is left in that nub now, which makes it easier to stay and finish it off, and you're no longer wasting the time or energy on 1-2 rock chunks.
If someone else is already mining the rock, I go find another one, or wait for one to regenerate. Only a small handful of players have tried to mine with me. I've never shooed anyone away, but I have walked away myself, mostly because it makes me giggle.
With 1610 max energy and counting, and with the changes to energy values of cooked items, I find the tiny bits of energy I might save with "help mine" immaterial. If I were an enthusiastic miner spending a lot of time in Ilmenskie, I'm sure I'd care more; as it is, I just want to get elements as quickly as possible and move on.
I wouldn't be too loud about the "not having to finish the nub" bit, because it may be contributing to the somewhat unfortunate phenomenon of people leaving nubs around so that rocks don't regenerate.
"I wouldn't be too loud about the "not having to finish the nub" bit, because it may be contributing to the somewhat unfortunate phenomenon of people leaving nubs around so that rocks don't regenerate."
you misunderstand.. not finishing the nub means that no extra nub energy needs to be spent to complete the rock, but the rock does vanish.
should have put that more clearly.
actually the coop mining encourages full mining of rocks. some solo miners son't want to use full energy to mine the nub for limited chunks.
That whole nub argument could be negated if the rock simply regenerated after a period of inactivity greater than the normal regenerate cycle... Currently it works something along the lines of: where x = the amount of rock... if x = 0, then after 600 seconds, make x = 50... it's a theoretically simple change to - if x is less than 50 after 600 seconds, then make x = 50.
*** However *** I'm neither a coder nor a game developer. I have no clue what interdependence there are latent in the regeneration mechanisms, and I could be completely off base about how the coding currently works in regards to rock regeneration. I have no idea why the rocks don't regenerate, nor do I claim to know the Bigger Picture in that regard.
Do some people not understand that this is not about rewards or chunks of rock obtained. Is that the only reason they mine? I could not care tuppence for the amount of chunks in my bag from any particular rock. I don't play to get the most possible yield from anything. I am happy to wander around and find a lonely rock and mine it, whilst thinking beautiful solitary thoughts.
This is why I play Glitch, as a rest and relief from a stressful, busy, person-filled RL. But that is not good enough for some it seems. I must be co-operative in Glitch too, I am only supposed to think of the "math" and the yield of chunks. I must be intruded upon if they choose. I must be the one to go away, they cannot be expected to just leave me alone to do my thing.
I have not called anyone 'selfish' or 'creepy' or anything insulting at all. Yet I am accused of wanting to 'own' rocks and not share, which is a horrible crime apparently.
Rocks regenerate in a fairly short time and I cannot see why a person can't wait for that instead of barging in and 'helping' because of their need to gain the maximum chunks possible from every situation. Why should I be made to feel bad because I want a break from RL and its stresses in my Glitch?
In future I shall say politely "No thanks, I am fine here" if I am asked if I want "help" as I no longer see why I should pander to those who won't see that my point of view is different from theirs, and respect it.
I am more than happy to share a rock, or anything else in the game, if I feel like it and I will do that more often than not. But those who's actions are based on the greatest gain at anyone's expense can whistle for my 'co-operation' since they don't want to co-operate in any way except their own.
I love playing Glitch. Every aspect of it delights me. So far.
I like tending green stuff. I like talking animals. I like rocks. I like mining.
As second oldest in a family of 10, I learned how to share general stuff with my sibs at a very early age so anything co-op in RL or on-line gaming doesn't bother me. Here @ Glitch, I can mine and chat with a friend, be joined by an utterly silent partner, or chip away all by my lonesome.
Sadly, many of the deep and head-busting mathmatical formulas skim way over my intellectual appreciation. I shall always be restricted to understanding coding from afar.
Happily, all I need to understand is that bonus chunks WILL appear if one is mining alone. That MORE chunks (potential wealth) are rewarded to group miners is just beautiful.
Somebody deserves big hugs and sloppy sugars for this winning solution.
:o)
Wow, plenty of opinions above. It's always hard to catch up after a few days without access to the forums. O.o
I like the cooperative mining a lot - it's great to have a little group and the reward of extra rocks is worth it. I can't see it being used as much in dirt pile digging.
"glitch is always going to be way more person filled than your real life."
Since you know nothing about my life I don't see how you can know how many people are swarming in it.
When I come to Glitch it is relatively deserted compared to my RL. Are you unable to comprehend any other version of the world than your own?
"i'm not saying you shouldn't play glitch," Gosh, thanks, its wonderful to know I have your permission
"the game is absolutely swarming with people, especially the mining areas."
This is why I often avoid the mining areas, and why, in quiet areas with solitary rocks, I tend to resent people barging in on me when they need not.
I have to chime in and agree with the above-most recent statements. I'm not sure what world you live in but in mine, in my real life, I am one of 6.5 Billion. Even in the future, it is almost absolutely impossible that there will ever be more people on Glitch than in my real life.
Also, if you want to specify that you meant only certain people within a certain proximity, for anyone living in major metropolitan areas such as myself (Los Angeles) or others (think New York, San Francisco, etc.), or even in Suburban areas, you'd still be within the locale of more individuals than you would be in the game (when accounting for distance ratios and the like).
The only time that statement might be true is if someone had a lifetime imprisonment in a sherriff's two-cell jail in Bumfreak Middle Of Nowhere. Which doesn't happen.
It occurs to me that there is a considerable difference between the Ilmenskie Caverns/Deeps/Uralia area and the Groddle Heights/Alakol area. In the former, there's almost nothing to do but mine, so perhaps people are more likely to mine together, or to want to do so. In the latter, people typically mine alone, and there's little to no pressure from anyone to change that. If there aren't rocks around at that moment, or if someone's already mining the ones which are there, we can tend trees, squeeze chickens, pet pigs, check mail, plant vegetables, go shopping, and so on while we wait for rocks to regenerate.
So perhaps all this difference of opinion is simply due to the emergence of two separate mining cultures, and we should all just accept the fact that everyone plays a little differently. It may not even occur to someone else to play the way that you do, and that's okay!
Exactly, ~glum p. and Kyinda. Different cultures work in different areas. That way we could choose what we wanted at any time. That would be great.
There may well be times when anyone wants a break from constant interaction, just a while alone with a rock! ;-) and other times when it is good to maximise yield.
I think in a way it is academic, however, since new players will not know how that works, so it might be difficult to maintain. Still it is worth bearing in mind so that people shouldn't be surprised if their offers of help are rejected and should not take it personally.
cerulean .. none of the areas you describe there i would describe as "swarming". ok, maybe with cars.
but in terms of personal interaction, directly competing for resources, like, within sight of one another. in terms of people crossing your path. in terms of people actually getting into your face in the ways cassandria complains about? really?
being "in the locale of" is not "being within a swarm of".
and if it is indeed so quiet and devoid of people, why the huge concern about being interrupted? how often are you concerned this will happen?
regarding alakol and groddle heights
i too mine in alakol and groddle heights and there are very often multiple people "competing" for rocks in this area. i put "competing" in quotes because with coop mining they don't really have to. my avatar's home is in alakol, and groodle heights has one of the best mixes of sparkly to metal in the game and i really great if you're into smelting/tonging/crafting. that's precisely where i go to do that stuff, not the caverns.
perhaps you use these areas casually, and activity does depend on the street but generally speaking the assumption that all the mining activity that goes on in these areas is sporadic and temporary is false.
striatic understands the changes made to mining perfectly in my opinion.
the devs have implemented an elegant improvement to mining and I'll be surprised if the naysayer camp don't change their minds after a bit more gameplay.
assuming of course that they haven't invested too much shoring up their position in this remarkably lengthy debate.
come on guys, give co-op mining a chance for a day. no one will think less of you if you do end up liking it and you might enjoy mining even more than on your own.
Okay, striatic, so maybe there are just more aggressive and less aggressive miners in the game world.
There's a children's cartoon called "Olivia" about a female pig-child and her family. I'm reminded of an episode in which her mother is upset with her for not sharing her crayons with her brother. There's an imagination sequence in which Olivia pictures her mother randomly being forced to share her car with Olivia's teacher.
The scenario here is similar: we are adults, and we can make our own decisions about how we wish to play. Frankly, if I want to find an empty street and mine it on my own, that's no one else's business. It's not a harmful practice. If you want to mine whichever rock is currently being mined by someone else, you'll do that, and there's nothing anyone can do about it, aside from walking away (makes me giggle, probably annoys others). Trying to convince others to play by your rules is going to be disappointing.
"I'm reminded of an episode in which her mother is upset with her for not sharing her crayons with her brother. There's an imagination sequence in which Olivia pictures her mother randomly being forced to share her car with Olivia's teacher."
this illustrates things perfectly.
the crayons are not actually the kid's crayons. she did not buy them. they were intended to be shared. she only thinks she owns them coz she got to them first. this is the way children think, but as you say - we are adults.
whereas the mother's car is actually her car. the mothers owns it.
the first situation is normal. if things are public and shareable and meant to be shared, people share them.
the second situation is ridiculous. if something actually belongs to you, like a car, it is ridiculous to be forced to share it.
@ striatic and SQUIRT. Why are you, and others, so anxious to convert everyone to your personal opinions? I'm really wondering about you. Give it a rest, already.
i am eager to clearly get my point across in a manner which accurately describes my thoughts on the matter.
i'm not particularly interested if anyone "converts" to my way of thinking because of it.
but i do hope that we all come to a better understanding of the issues.
there are interesting issues in glitch, worth discussing. it is one of the most interesting aspects of this game. how many games can you have serious discussions about the nature of ownership and cooperation?
I so lost the train of this thread. I've reread it... and still don't actually follow what is bering discussed.
Crayon analogy seems right.
I find the crayons and start drawing with them, fine. Someone wants to use them too, great. If I'm not in the mood to share, my option is to stop using said crayons and go somewhere else. That is neither right nor wrong. I'm not morally obligated to continue using the crayons. And the second person is not obligated to ask me permission.
They certainly can ask. Sure, that is polite. But it is not required.
"That is neither right nor wrong. I'm not morally obligated to continue using the crayons. And the second person is not obligated to ask me permission."