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#### A short critique of Glitch, as a game.

The problem with Glitch is that under the shiny polish of whacky cartoon art and delightful sounds, it lacks depth. When I first read up about it, I was pretty hopeful. The idea of giving players the power to interact and shape with the world, complex, intertwining systems, a playground, a sandbox (of sorts) - All that sounded very attractive, so I gave it a shot and applied to get into the game on launch day.
I was drawn in by the incentives to help each other out, the discovery of new items, the bureaucracy (the best). I thought, this game has the potential to be a great interactive experience. Unfortunately, all the initial novelty wore off quickly.
I think the tipping point, when I realised it was all an effort in vain, was when I had my little meat farm set up in an apartment in Groddle Towers. Meat prices had been dropping, with the massive influx of players, each one trying to undercut the other. The concept of an economy is non-existent, when a player is easily able to sell his wares to a vendor for a decent price. To me, the tool vendor is a money-printing device. I dump my Sammiches in and it spits currants at me.
The auction system undermines the value of resources in the game. Why take the time to learn a skill and harvest for yourself, when with your own stream of income, you can just grab something off the auctions? They're never too expensive, especially when you look at the time it saves you. Everything is at your fingertips, there's a disconnect between players when it comes to trading and businesses.
I got bored of street projects after my 2nd experience. Dumping virtual resources into an abyss to 'unlock' a map. That's not much of shaping the world, and the exploration isn't much to talk about either. Sure there's art, but it feels like the world lacks meaning or purpose. What separates this map from the next? The presence of a certain vendor? Eventually, they all fly by like a blur, because it's the same resources over and over again. Trees, animals or mining nodes, ad naseum. Places do not serve a purpose apart from being host to these harvesting stations and players have to 'upkeep'. Likewise for Rook Attacks, I grew tired of it after my 1st experience. I finally got to put Piety and Imagination to use... wait, what's this? Another resource dumping mini-game? Ugh.
The game's fundamental design is unbalanced. It's too easy to sustain life, and there isn't much threat of collapse, when everything is so easy to re-create. It feels like another one of those Facebook games, just with a better, rudimentary social framework. It's all about keeping the player continually harvesting and crafting consumables.
One of the 'sales pitch's I read was that "There are 1000-plus items and 90 skills.". True as that may be, they all fall into skill trees and can easily be lumped into categories. Animal stuff, Alchemical stuff, Mining stuff, Gardening stuff, Foods and Drinks, Machines, Blocks and Fuels. It's all on the auction page. That's the extent of the variety. The only interesting things I found were really, the toys, but the limitations of those also left me disappointed.
I think that the structure of Glitch leaves it open to huge potential, but the direction it took has ultimately let it down. Content-driven material only gets you so far, eventually it's going to run out, and players will leave when there's nothing new. As steep is its learning curve, there are very good reasons why EVE Online is an extremely successful game. Glitch seems to have gone in the opposite direction, with oversimplification to appeal to mass populations. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the visual/aural aesthetics of the game, all I am saying is that the world could use a little more depth.

Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne | Permalink

### Replies

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- ".. it's just that glitch neither presents itself as a venue for imagination nor provides particularly interesting tools with which to express one's imagination."
  I don't believe this but that's just my opinion. I do know that more "tools for imagination" are in the works and that some of them should be available by the end of the year.
  The first thing to do is decide just what it is that you want or like. After that, you can figure out how to do it or get it. If you can't do it or get it and you don't want to check back occasionally to see if it's here then it may be better to find something else to do and that does not necessarily have to be a "game".
  I don't sit around waiting for something new to be added. I am still doing things that are available. It is possible I could reach a point where I can no longer enjoy what is here or think of some new way to do something. I do run out of imagination from time to time. When that happens I take a short break. It's short because I am still thinking of things to do and have not begun to do "everything". (I have been here since March 2011.) This is why I feel that others should be able to do the same. It's just what I believe and the way I play. I am not in a hurry. I plod along and enjoy.
  I like playing alone and with others. I like doing personal quests such as finding the places I haven't been. I have been many places. During Beta I had been to more than 1,000 locations. That includes the housing blocks. I admit many people might find this boring and it sometimes is. I seldom set foot outside my home in Bortola without discovering something even if it is only that a Bubble tree has been replaced with a Wood tree. Small beans rather than cool beans but I take pleasure in the small. I can always find the "small" and in search of it sometimes find the "large". Have you seen the "Meat Mountain"? Have you made one? I haven't seen it yet but it is on my todo list. Maybe you should leave a note on the Wish Dragon. Tell it what you want. Wishes do sometimes come true.
  I did not mean to offend anyone. I only wanted to point out that you can't just wait for new content, you need to seek it. You need to create and design and do new things. You all have the intelligence to do that, if you didn't you would not be using a computer. I only wish the best for everyone. I want you to discover what you enjoy and do it or create it. I want you to have Fun. If you can't do this at "Glitch" then find a place where you can do it. Seek every day, create, find Joy in something!
  Posted 14 months ago by Brib Annie | Permalink
- Striatic said it quite well (and you know, I thought you'd be one of the ones to disagree, since I remembered you were making up all those games! And back then I was already complaining:P)
  Maybe Glitch isn't the game for me, that's entirely possible. But, it is true that it isn't finished yet, and I am hoping it will give me more. However, the game is no longer in alpha or beta, it's OPEN. I've been here since the beginning, and I have an emotional attachment, and an appreciation for the gradual changes and the work put into taking the game from Alpha to launch that new players will not have. They will come in and expect the game to be ready and finished. How many will have the patience to overlook the gaps and lack of content where any MMO player expects it? They don't care about the game as much as we do.
  I wonder what the statistics are for the playerbase- how many of the regulars have been here through Beta, and how many newcomers have stuck around for enough time and quests to be considered dedicated players. I have this hunch that most of this fantastic, happy playerbase is just us oldbies...
  As to imagination, believe me, I have plenty, which is exactly why I would rather do something creative in real life, where the possibilities are infinite, instead of dawdling in a game where the possibilities are almost nil, because it is not a game designed to allow creativity.
  Which annoys me immensely, because Glitch was, from the beginning, touted as a game where we create a world with imagination. I can think of many, many games that live up to that promise. Creatures. Spore. Theme Hospital. Sims, of course. Even silly Farmville, since you decide where you place the crops and make pretty patterns. Bah, it even goes for any RPG where choosing your path and skills is actually relevant to your performance- say, Planescape Torment. Notice that I've mentioned games that are pretty old. Players know to expect more from new games. If they can buy a house, they take it for granted that they'll be able to decorate it. Glitch doesn't even allow that- sure, the promise has been made, but who has time for promises these days?
  The thing is, if Glitch is not meant to be the kind of game that gives players building blocks they can entertain themselves with, fine. But in that case, it needs to be another game- a game that offers many challenges, puzzles, quests, and rewards the players for them. A game that keeps you wanting to level up, and gives you a definite forecast of better things ahead. What it has right now is a good start but it's too weak and dispersed.
  Posted 14 months ago by Cefeida | Permalink
- Excellent post, Raiyne. I've had some similar thoughts over the past three weeks, and my interest in the game has been waning, despite the various additions they've made to the game.
  Also, +1 to Cefeida, mirth, and anyone else who's noticed that Glitch's implementation of imagination has been very limited, and doesn't show any real signs of improving. Yes, I realize the game is new, and that the devs have cookies in store for us in the near future, but I am starting to wonder if the devs can and will add the depth that will keep players like me interested in something like this.
  And I don't lack imagination - I'm a writer, artist, and like playing in cardboard boxes in RL. ;)
  The game seems like it can't decide if it wants to be a fast-paced achievement-based game, or a social game. This is evidenced greatly by the recent Halloween events -- I didn't get any of the badges, because I didn't login this week. I bought a few things on the AH, but didn't get to participate. As someone who likes to get badges, it's disappointing that I missed out, because of such a short window. If the game is meant to be a "stop and smell the roses" kind of experience where we can chat and plunder along and accomplish our goals on our own time at our own pace, and socialize while doing it, I think short-term events like this one don't support that cause.
  In fact, having no areas in the game where your energy will stop decreasing also indicates that this game is not very social. If I want to idle and chat with my game friends, I don't want to have to do all the busy work to keep my energy up and keep myself from dying all the time. Not that dying is bad, since hell seems to be fun, but if I want to just idle and hang out, I should be able to, if this game is social. As it stands now, I can be more relaxed and social in WoW* (or most other MMOs) because I can just idle somewhere and chat with friends... but I can't do that in Glitch. They clearly want you to log off if you aren't being productive in some way. (*It may be relevant to state that I haven't actually played WoW for almost three years now -- it lost my interest for different reasons.)
  Mirth's idea about having bars sounds like a great idea. Additionally, those rooms would be places you couldn't craft anything or do ANY busy work. Just socialize. And your energy wouldn't tick down in there. Then we have a cute little graphical place to hang out, that we can idle in if we feel like it. I suspect that group or guild halls might have this sort of functionality. At least I can hope.
  The more I play this game, and the more changes I see implemented, the more I'm seeing things getting MORE restrictive and limited, and LESS open-ended and imagination-supportive. And I think I made the mistake of asking myself (and my significant other, who also has been playing) "What's the point of this game?" There really wasn't a good answer... and even though we had been aware of it before, the endless treadmill infrastructure of the game became even more transparent, and it was disappointing. We didn't feel like we were contributing anything to the world, nor accomplishing anything of value, and as soon as we vocalized that, our desire to play sunk to almost zero.
  That said, I have a year subscription. I'm willing to give that much to see if things improve. I have faith in the game and the devs, but my support isn't blind or infinite.
  Posted 14 months ago by Gant | Permalink
- I definitely agree with many of the posters' points here. The fundamental thing is that Glitch currently is widely lacking as a medium to implement creativity or be social. I've played for a month, and while I do enjoy this game, I've barely talked to more than a dozen people. There's simply no reason for me to reach out to a person who probably won't reciprocate. As for creativity, I'm not seeing any of this at all. Other than my limited choice of clothing and hair, I don't feel that I able to make my character distinct. Heck, as one poster mentioned above, there's more customizability in Farmville. At least there you got to chose what crops to plant and how.
  I'm not saying that this game sucks. However, it's undeniable that we have some real fundamental issues here, especially with how the ideas of the game are carried out, and TS definitely need s to keep track of them.
  Posted 14 months ago by Reirei Umezaki | Permalink
- Interview from the Massively Speaking Podcast with Stoot:
  http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/02/massively-speaking-episode-171/1#c34989845
  Starts at about 42 minutes.
  Talks about the group halls and skills related to group hall construction. Touches on a number of other topics
  Posted 14 months ago by Red Sauce | Permalink
- I wonder what the statistics are for the playerbase- how many of the regulars have been here through Beta, and how many newcomers have stuck around for enough time and quests to be considered dedicated players. I have this hunch that most of this fantastic, happy playerbase is just us oldbies...
  [Cefeida]
  Well, I guess I am one of those newbies. Only joined the game 2-3 weeks ago, and already love the style, the game feeling and the possibilities of "more to come". I personally don't care about the gaps. I see them, of course, but as I can also see that the devs are working on small things constantly (and talking about a few bigger things as well), I find it actually pretty exciting that there will be times when we ALL can discover something new together.
  That being said, I also understand some of the critical points here, and I agree with a few.
  The whole auction system leaves me frustrated. How fun is it to discover new things, if you can actually all buy them with a click? I try to restrain myself from not buying anything that I have not yet found or crafted myself, but that's kind of a personal RP restrain, and the game mechanic clearly wants you to be part of the big auction community.
  Same goes for crafting things yourself. I just finished Tinkering V and can now craft a whole bunch of machines and tools. That should be exciting, but it is not as much, because you can buy most of those things at vendors (for reasonable prices), and you almost never need more than one anyway. I am quite happy about the idea that the devs deleted some of the "super tools" from vendors, but in the end, they are being sold so cheap at auctions that buying them there makes (economically) more sense than searching for all ingredients and crafting them myself.
  The only reason why I still craft them myself is simply because I find it more fun. Well, this is me. (So maybe that's one of the reasons why this game is for me, too). But I can totally understand why other people would feel a bit let down. You go all the way to learn a skill, but by the time you are there, you have so much money already that it is easier to just buy the stuff instead of using your skill?
  This is one example, but it fits to what has been said before here: That a lot of work that we do in the end feels a bit frustrating about "collecting and dumping" ressources.
  All that being said, I still do have fun, and probably for two reasons:
  1) The people. That is, my friends who followed me here, and with whom I hang out, do stuff, go on silly quests and help each other to craft, mine and cook. I have also met quite a few other people in the game. I do agree that it can be sometimes a bit difficult to meet people, though. So +1 from my side for the idea of more social rooms. (But the group halls could probably be the solution to this one already?).
  2) The future to come. I like the idea of a game in progress. It's been only 2-3 weeks, and I had already lots of fun with new ideas like Zilloween or the 7 streets of hell (which don't do much, they are just there, but, hey... they sure as hell look impressive).
  So, strangely, at the end of the day, I don't care too much for the game mechanics, as long as they are not completely stupid or boring (they are not). It's the combination of everything for me: The graphics, the system, the people, the team behind the game.
  I am, so far, happy with that.
  But at the same time, I also think that all those critic points being raised in this thread are valuable questions, and I sincerely hope they are reviewed, questioned and maybe put into useful additions or changes.
  As long as that happens, I consider the game fair value for my precious real life time spent here. ;)
  Posted 14 months ago by Louis Louisson | Permalink
- I agree with the OP. I keep training skills in case the game dramatically changes but my generally speaking when I feel the need to flex my imagination I hop on my Minecrat server and if I feel like just mindlessly wandering around gathering and crafting, I'd play an MMO where my OCD gathering can be a valuable contribution to a progression guild.
  It's honestly odd to me how few Glitch players seem to realize how much role playing, exploring and just plain gathering and crafting are a part of the other MMOs so readily criticized here. My one regret now in playing WoW is not having introduced a RL friend and Glitch fan to that game. It would have been awesome to socialize with her there while she ran around picking herbs, crafting potions, mining, cutting gems. And so fun to defend her against (pvp) player-vs-player attacks. It would have been a much more meaningful two-way street for both our playstyles.
  And that's what I think it finally comes down to for me: there aren't enough playstyle opportunities in Glitch to support the kind of diverse community which makes a community feel real (to me).
  Posted 14 months ago by Hydi | Permalink
- I forgot to address "be patient! It's only been out for a short while!"
  That may be true but there is still a fundamental limitation to both mechanics and exploration space.
  Posted 14 months ago by Hydi | Permalink
- Hydi,
  I actually find the reverse to be true on my end. I invited a friend of mine, with whom I've played multiple MMOGs with, from WoW into Glitch and he got hooked almost immediately. It was the community/social aspects that got to him, just as it did to me.
  I think one factor in that is the lack of urgency in completing something as compared to the quests of WoW and other competitive MMOGs. Glitch is more like a cooperative game and has a more laid-back, "at your own pace" feel to it.
  — Mal'akh, Primate of Lem, Primus Inter Pares of the Orthodox Church of the Giants of Ur, Hubby of Aranna, Shriner of Mullangi Meda
  Posted 14 months ago by Mal'akh | Permalink
- IMO, anyone who thinks Glitch is "more cooperative" made poor gameplay decisions in prior games. And lol hard on the "urgency of quests" in WoW. I mean, seriously, in WoW? That urgency around gameplay metrics and acquisition of leveling is being blamed on a game and not on the players is laughable to me.
  Posted 14 months ago by Hydi | Permalink
- IMO, anyone who thinks Glitch is "more cooperative" made poor gameplay decisions in prior games. And lol hard on the "urgency of quests" in WoW. I mean, seriously, in WoW? That urgency around gameplay metrics and acquisition of leveling is being blamed on a game and not on the players is laughable to me.
  Who killed videogames? (A ghost story)
  It's all about gameplay metrics. It's how people get hooked, even here in Glitch. Gameplay metrics make the industry go 'round.
  — Mal'akh, Primate of Lem, Primus Inter Pares of the Orthodox Church of the Giants of Ur, Hubby of Aranna, Shriner of Mullangi Meda
  Posted 14 months ago by Mal'akh | Permalink
- You said Glitch "a lack of urgency in completing something as compare to..."
  I disagree absolutely with that.
  Urgency toward completion is subjective. The fact that people find other games exert more pressure to "completion" is a limitation of their imagination. They succumb to the completionist MO. That is not the game's fault, that is the player's fault.
  And if you want to argue that Glitch has no end goals, please explain the quantity-oriented achievements.
  Posted 14 months ago by Hydi | Permalink
- Imho its up to you how you decide to play glitch.
  what i like most,and i dont get bored at all is that (quests apart) i have NO rush at all to level up, the game is open since 1 month only and, as i would like to play it in long term i have no need to spent all my time levelling up now; i like a lot let the achievement come by themselves, ok i can target on which one i want to work on but i do it in a complete quiet and calm way.
  Its plenty of fun and strange things happening that amuse me all days i play and surely and in imho Glitch is not a rush race its a journey made day by day.
  if you pay enough attention each day there is a new surprise, its up to you been able to discover what could be.
  Posted 14 months ago by babi | Permalink
- shrug
  There are a lot of quests in WoW that have a set time limit before the quest expires, Gltich does not. There are escort quests in WoW and you have to keep the escorted NPC alive, Glitch does not. You fight to survive in WoW all the time either from aggro monsters or from PCs, the only Glitch equivalent is The Rook and escaping damage is as easy as leaving the Street.
  Some people thrive on the adrenaline rush of competitive games, I prefer the laid-back approach of Glitch.
  Like you said; it's subjective.
  — Mal'akh, Primate of Lem, Primus Inter Pares of the Orthodox Church of the Giants of Ur, Hubby of Aranna, Shriner of Mullangi Meda
  Posted 14 months ago by Mal'akh | Permalink
- oh i forgot to say i like quests as well and what i like most i can do them whenever i want and this is super, they are independent from the fact of levelling up or not.
  some days i do quests some days no. what more to ask, complete freedoom of choice on how to play and is marvellous.
  Posted 14 months ago by babi | Permalink
- Mal'akh, there are plenty of quests in Glitch that involve "do this thing x times in 5 minutes" or "do this x time in one game day". There are plenty of time related activities in Glitch as in WoW.
  Posted 14 months ago by victoriah | Permalink
- I'm very amused that there are all these people who have played Glitch for a few weeks and have reached the conclusion that they are bored by the game because it has no depth (or whatever).....yet they are hooked enough by the game to write long forum posts about it. And then continue arguing about it in yet more posts.
  If you don't like Glitch, cool. Everyone doesn't like everything. I personally think WoW is a pretty dumb game, but that doesn't mean it's a bad game for all the millions of people who play it. Glitch is a good game for me, maybe it's a bad game for you. That's alright.
  Take a second to think about the fact that this game which you don't like.....has hooked you into debating passionately about it on the internet with strangers. Interesting, no?
  Posted 14 months ago by Feylin | Permalink
- @Mal'akh The lack of urgency is not a reason why Glitch fails to engage players. Many creative games, have a complete lack of urgency. I think 'urgency' might be using the wrong word for it.
  There isn't even any urgency in WoW, not from the game itself, at least. Yes some quests have timers, but you are not being pushed to grind, quest or move to the next area. You can hang on and take your time enjoying the game and the world, with professions and co-operating with players in parties, dungeons and PVP.
  I think I get where you are coming from though, in that without certain qualities of the game world, a player will not have the motivation to explore and 'play' that part of the game. For example, I've learnt many skills in glitch, but I have yet to touch the Mining-related skills at all. Why is that? Because there's no gameplay for me in it, than what I already have. It's still clicking on a resource node and receiving and item. I've also learnt many crafting skills that I am never compelled to use. I have no reason to, anyway. There's no supply and demand and most items are priced rock-bottom in the auction house. It doesn't benefit me in anyway to use those skills to produce stuff for other people aside from perhaps allowing them to generate virtual currency which is also equally meaningless.
  Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne | Permalink
- @Feylin I think you may be confused. Many of us are here because we like the concepts and ideas that were used to 'pitch' the game to us players. We think the game falls short in certain ways and we would like to discuss ways in which the game could be improved because we care and want to see it thrive.
  I don't really get the point of your post, is it that you think we are complaining or whining? Or are you just trying to point out the irony in the situation?(Explained above)
  Or are you opposed to constructive criticism and player-to-developer feedback?
  Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne | Permalink
- Feylin, fwiw, some of the long comments in this thread who agree with the original post have been made by people who have been playing the game for months, even *years* at this point if you round up. Also, it is possible to offer up constructive criticism while still enjoying the game, and if you read those comments closely you will see that it's not so simple as "I don't like the game so I am going to complain." Also, what Raiyne said. :)
  Posted 14 months ago by katlazam | Permalink
- @Feylin the reason I still occassionally engage in this forum is primarily because it loads so nicely on mobile. It's something to visit on my phone. Believe me, if Curse had mobile-formatted forums I probably would never visit here. But the seond reason is that I'm facinated by why prople like this game, why their explanations of it never offer up a reason I haven't experienced in other games. I'm facinated by how so many non-gamers seem to have collected here, people who are shocked by the auction house undercutting, by griefing. And lastly, who doesn't love the threads about spice tree poisoning.
  But you're right, I'll leave the forum to the people who still play now.
  Posted 14 months ago by Hydi | Permalink
- "Or are you opposed to constructive criticism and player-to-developer feedback?"
  Ouch, honey! That's a pretty big logical leap to make about my intentions, dont you think?
  No, I just was amused by the irony.
  Yes, I know there's long time players who are engaged in constructive feedback. (Which is why I said I was amused at the people who had just started playing.)
  Also, I definitely was not trying to say that people should not post here if they are not playing. Good lord.
  I was just amused by a general trend I've seen in newish players. That's all.
  Posted 14 months ago by Feylin | Permalink
- Oh, I see. I'm sorry if I have offended you with that statement. I suppose I can be defensive about things I feel strongly about.
  Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne | Permalink
- @striatic: very well-put!
  @hydi: great points. I suspect that a number of the people who think the toolset on Glitch is adequate for a sandbox haven't had a lot of exposure to other multiplayer games. I love the art style of Glitch, I love the fact I can play it in a browser, I think I love the backstory (which needs a lot of fleshing out), but it's pretty limited on the self-expression front compared with many other games I have played in the past.
  One of the tricky things about self-expression in multiplayer computer games is that better graphics = less self-expression and diversity. In text-based games the sky's the limit, but it's all text. In pretty detailed graphical games that are multiplayer (especially MMO), it's very hard to effectively give people tools to really change the world. Art and code have to be developed to represent what players do.
  Player desire for self-expression and the ability to affect the world competitively/creatively is certainly evident in other popular forum topics. Look at all of the drama about what trees get planted where, and about players "stealing" animals from various streets. Tree and animal placement is the only way in which we can actually affect the game world, so some players have extremely strong opinions about them.
  Most other things that give the appearance of affecting the game world are window dressing - yes we can contribute to street projects, but we can't affect how those streets look or what they contain. Yes we can fight off Rook attacks, but can they actually destroy streets? I doubt it.
  Posted 14 months ago by mirth | Permalink
- Two things could easily improve some people's experience with Glitch: Craft only items... right now by the time you can craft an item you could easily have bought it many times over; and cosmetic customization... even at the level of doodles as 'art' for your house walls.
  Posted 14 months ago by Krytalis | Permalink
- It really does come down to what you hope or expect to get out of it.
  I'm in a position at the moment where, intermittently throughout the day, I need a brainfree timesink - something not as dizzying or attention-demanding as 3D first-person combat games, more interesting than staring at the wall, less soul-destroying than watching daytime television, and yet not so important that my hard work will be undone if I have to unexpectedly drop play with no forewarning and come back in an hour.
  Things like Freecell, Solitaire, the Sims and so on are great but very much single-person. Games on social networks seem to often involve a mechanic where having "friends" boosts your gameplay or gives you a scoreboard to fight against but doesn't involve interaction at all beyond firing off pre-written updates. Other dedicated MMO games seem to be very much about the 3D dashing-around-urgently D&D style of play.
  Glitch, on the other hand, I can wander around mining/exploring/harvesting and I can strike up conversations with people. I haven't been here long so I wouldn't say I've *made friends* yet, but I have some friendly acquaintances, people I 'recognise' as familiar Glitchian faces, who I don't have any connection with outside the game. Meanwhile I can set up my own goals (get a bigger house? Explore everywhere? Get Icons of the Giants? I don't play 24/7 so it'll take me more than a few months to do all or any of those things) with no pressure - that's perfect for me.
  So while I recognise the points being made by the people who aren't getting a lot out of the game any more... I can also imagine the flaming I would get if I were to wander onto the forums of one of the many games that doesn't float *my* particular boat and start complaining that I don't like *their* style of gameplay. Nothing suits everyone.
  Posted 14 months ago by Batsgirl | Permalink
- Nothing ironic about people who have gone through alpha and beta and even contributed ideas to this game giving a damn about what direction it eventually goes, I think, Feylin, and that's no matter which definition of ironic you use. Sorry if you meant to say something else, but your comment largely reads as 'Lol you hate it here but you won't go away, how silly', and I guess other people just don't find it so incredibly amusing.
  Well, I do like it here, even if I am somewhat disappointed in the progress. I want it to be better (for my definition of better, naturally). Since the game is still unfinished and may yet change, it's quite normal for me to hang around and give my opinion, instead of quitting because it's not good enough. Or if we weren't supposed to do that once Beta was finished, sorry, didn't get the memo.
  Posted 14 months ago by Cefeida | Permalink
- Ah, yet more leaping to conclusions! Lovely.
  Here, I shall copy and paste what I posted, since reading comprehension appears to be lacking.
  "I'm very amused that there are all these people who have played Glitch for a few weeks"
  So, to recap: NOT talking about folks who've stuck around and played for a while. NOT hating on people giving constructive feedback.
  In the future, if you'd like to address what I've said- read what i've said.
  Posted 13 months ago by Feylin | Permalink
- @Batsgirl
  Your post captures the spirit of what I have failed to bring across with my posts. And I'm adding you since I just saw that you're on Ravelry.
  @Raiyne
  I didn't say it was the lack of "urgency" that makes the game fail (see my post). I love the fact that there is no urgency.
  You did, however, get my point about gameplay matrices when you wrote "I think I get where you are coming from though, in that without certain qualities of the game world, a player will not have the motivation to explore and 'play' that part of the game."
  @Everyone on the thread
  I don't think Feylin was being critical of anyone. She was just voicing her amusement at something she found ironic.
  — Mal'akh, Primate of Lem, Primus Inter Pares of the Orthodox Church of the Giants of Ur,Hubby of Aranna, Shriner of Mullangi Meda
  Posted 13 months ago by Mal'akh | Permalink
- Everyone is dancing around the central issue, so I will call this baby ugly.
  Glitch is more and more boring the longer you play it.
  I had a long-winded rant here about exactly why, but while reflecting on it I decided it wasn't necessary and deleted it. Boring really does say it all.
  Posted 13 months ago by TekNoh | Permalink
- @Raiyne you wondered (more or less) early in this thread whether or not the issues you identified were not discovered during alpha or beta. Let me assure you that they were. There has always been a delighted fan club to rein this discussion in--as evidenced herein. This is the first time I have seen a sustained, constructive discussion not overrun by fandom. Thank you, and others contributing their thoughts, ideas and, nay I say, imagination to this discussion. I am among the oldsters who have great affection for Glitch--like I do for my hometown. I hope, tho, that Glitch can up the interest so that I continue to return to it--unlike my hometown.
  Posted 13 months ago by Mac Rapalicious | Permalink
- All I have to say is I like 2d better than 3d. Secondlife is full of all kinds of building tools but I find the place much more boring than Glitch. Too many choices. Too many people focused on building their own stuff and not enough people interested in exploring.
  Posted 13 months ago by Treesa | Permalink
- One of the things that turned me off the most about secondlife was the number of people obsessed with building and customizing their mostly unimaginative houses and private islands.
  Posted 13 months ago by Treesa | Permalink
- That and the number of people obsessed with customizing their avatars boobs/muscles.
  Posted 13 months ago by Treesa | Permalink
- @TekNoh
  That can be said for just about all games, though. That's what updates are for. Glitch have it good with little patches/updates coming in at least once a week. For an MMO I've been playing on and off for the past 9 years, the big content updates only comes in once every half a year~9 months.
  Posted 13 months ago by Elly | Permalink
- @Elly :
  No, it really can't be said. There are many video games out there where they nailed the game design right out of the gate. Glitch isn't one of them. After level 15 it started becoming obvious they didn't have much thought, if any at all, on what to do with anyone hitting that level. That's when the mindless, needlessly drawn out quests started. That's the reason I quit WoW. There are quests in Glitch I have had since the beginning I am never, ever going to complete because I am perfectly unwilling to devote the days or weeks it will take to complete them.
  It's a simple concept : drudge work is NOT fun.
  Gardening is my prime example. Why should I have to click on each and every square to do something? Why can't I just work it like I would work crafting a food item? I should just be able to click the garden and tend all of it in one fell swoop. Clicking. every. single. square. is. boring. and. monotonous. And no, keyboard shortcuts don't make it better.
  This is but one example of the bad design that went into Glitch. Another is the learning penalty. Seriously? Not only did someone at Speck think that something with "penalty" as part of the concept was fun and a good idea, but undoubtedly other people at Speck had to be sold on the concept and they agreed !
  Incompetent game designers always make the same mistake : time = fun. While this is a good guideline, time does NOT automatically build value, i.e. translate into fun. However, fun always equals fun. The time it takes to complete learning is a great example of math not working out and time NOT equaling fun.
  There were epic quests in WoW that were fun every single moment. There were also quests where every single player was cursing the person who thought that sado-masochistic hell was ever in the same zip code as fun, let alone the ballpark. And this is how I perceive Glitch after level 15. The fun just slowly ebbed away and it revealed a world where there really is little "new" to do, or fun to be had.
  Posted 13 months ago by TekNoh | Permalink
- @ Feylin:
  Missed the 'few weeks', true. Apologies for that. However, I never said you were hating. I just said that what amused you wasn't really all that amusing. Or ironic. And re-reading your comment, being extra careful to not 'few weeks' I haven't changed my mind.
  In fact I never said anything negative about you, or leapt to any outrageous conclusions, so chill out.
  Posted 13 months ago by Cefeida | Permalink
- This is an absolutely fascinating discussion and I can't help but want to weigh in. I'm what you'd classify as a new player - I joined the game just out of beta. I adore the artwork and the quirky humour and the crafting and achievements appeal to the 'gotta catch em all' side of me and I've still got plenty of activities and skills and achievements ahead of me. However, I definitely see the merit in many of the arguments made here about depth.
  I'm interested by the tensions between 1) the idea of being motivated as a player to do things via game mechanics/social constructs vs the ability to move at my own pace and decide on my own goals and 2) solo play vs group play - group play being where the social construct stuff can come into play as regards motivation
  I have been a WoW player for several years and participated actively in the progression raiding end game and one of the things that I am enjoying about Glitch is that I can just potter about solo and at my own pace. There is no pressure to get the latest and greatest pair of 'boots of gardening +5' so that my character is optimised.
  I do kind of feel that there isn't much in the game world currently driving me to group play. The closest I feel I've come to a cooperative group experience has been in Ajaya Bliss.
  Yet it's the group experience and the social dynamic in my WoW experience that lead to the feeling of pressure to be always at the top in terms of skill, optimisation etc.
  Of course my experience is also about how I chose to interact with WoW the game too! I could have eschewed the raiding game and RPed or had a lot of alts (well I have those too actually) or maybe PVPed or I don't know. I think as you play a game more and more you can't help but start looking for 'what next', and developers know this of course - that's why they have release cycles for new features and etc :)
  If I think about what I would like to see more of in Glitch.. it's probably story/plot and more compelling reasons for group play. I am going to caveat this comment though - because I'm still exploring and finding out more about the world of Ur so perhaps there are story elements I haven't discovered yet.
  And that's another point really - I'm still in the 'stars in my eyes' phase with the game and it's a really nice place to be. I purposefully try to stop myself looking up resources and etc to learn things because I want to extend the feeling of being in a strange new place and not knowing anything. I remember that feeling fondly from other MMOs and I want to hold onto that for as long as possible.
  I'm probably rambling, so thanks for reading this far, and thanks for a really interesting discussion!
  Posted 13 months ago by Jezzle | Permalink
- I will keep this short since this horse has been beaten so many times its dog food and glue now.
  Current mmo players want immediate gratification from developers including indy developers and simply lack patience. No matter how many times I see it lack depth argument a few years later its full of it and the game grows. Thats the way this works. Its the way it will always work.
  The other thing is a sandbox is a sandbox build your own castles. My first week I distributed letter quest just because I could. While some argue gaining resources exist in all games once you go to bliss you understand that this game is full of cooperative efforts. Considering the devs openness and future updates looking promising I don't really see a point in these type of complaints. I could direct anyone to so many first 2 month "No End Game" speeches that it sickens me. I guess I'm getting too old to really give a ____ anymore.
  Good indy devs deserve to be supported thats about it.
  Posted 13 months ago by Master E | Permalink
- @Master E, I would like to be able to build sand castles.... and could really use some 'boots of gardening +5'
  Posted 13 months ago by Krytalis | Permalink
- @Master E
  Ironic, because I can also see certain constructs of Glitch to be catering towards 'immediate gratification', which to be honest, is irrelevant to the impetus of this thread.
  From a pop-up discovery window every time you obtain a new item to the many, many achievements the game throws at you, what isn't immediate about it? If you want to do something in the game, you either find it and click on the prompts, or you can buy it from the auction house. At most, a player only needs patience to learn pre-requisite skills. The character progression in the game is limited to skills that enable harvesting/crafting actions and improve efficiency. So, may I ask, what is the delayed gratification that exists in Glitch? Is it the 50k modern home, or a massive number of currants/resources?
  This isn't about an 'end game', ideally, there is no need for such a term because the entire game experience is seamlessly integrated with the system and rules it is built upon. We're not asking for some high-level content, it's just that the game falls short of its 'sales pitch'.
  "You choose how to grow and shape the world: building and developing, learning new skills, collaborating or competing with everyone else in one enormous, ever-changing, persistent world."
  ""Glitch" is both the name of the game and its fundamental concept: the yin and the yang, the fundamental force, the alpha and omega, the path, the way, and most of all: the happy accidents of unfettered creativity."
  Right now, it doesn't feel like we're able to build anything that isn't pre-determined and it's a non-spontaneous procedure. There isn't much creativity going on within the game because we are restricted in what we can do within the world.
  The reason why most of us are still here commenting and discussing, is because the developers do seem to care. Many of the critics have subscriptions, so it's not that we don't support the developers, it's just that the game design isn't that good, and we have to say something, if not it'll either fail... or I dunno, become another Farmville, that people will look back and dismiss.
  When I first heard of this game, the ideas brought across resonated with me, and despite nay-sayers brushing the game off to be another one of those lame 'social games', I believed in it. I hope Tiny Speck can prove them wrong.
  Posted 13 months ago by Raiyne | Permalink
- @ Raiyne
  Now everything I said was not in reference to your OP note no "@OP" in my last post.
  Now to beat some more dog food out of this horse.
  You missed what I said and to simplify it even more the devs know what you said and are working on it. The patience I am referring to is simply to wait for more development and immediate gratification does not refer to the game mechanics achievements etc but the fact that its been a month the games been live. 1 month thats it.Voicing criticism can only help the game but expecting things to change over night is a joke. If the devs say "Ok we understand and we are working on it" then I rather leave it at that.
  This game is not wow its not some triple A title or anything like that. The devs are no blizz and leeway must be given. The game is not pay to play and perhaps because I am really only comparing it to other browser based games my views are slanted ( and i am not talking about farmville or mafia wars. Not to call em out but looking how long it took dead frontier to go from 2D to 3D I realize the limits of a budget and the patience required to deal with it).
  The game its good not perfect and for what its costing me (nothing really atm) I for one would rather watch where it goes over time. Doom and gloom prophecies are a dime a dozen (see the mmorpg.com forums for more) and most F2P games do not fail they actually tend to succeed even if it takes a lil longer to get updates rolling out.
  I will say again. Good indy devs deserve to be supported thats about it and it seems we agree on that.
  PS
  As far as the issues with mechanics and design. Are far as design goes art etc its too subjective to really argue. Mechanics on the other hand you'll miss be by miles every time. I use the keyboard and find UI stupid easy and not frustrating. The pop ups are annoying I guess but I hardly notice. I have played so many games that I honestly believe I miss the pet peeves most folks have and that is just who I am ( I glided through FFXIV's UI too so...If you know you know). The game would have to be literally unplayable before I really noticed.
  And I am really sorry to point this out but farmville is hugely successful lol.
  TL:DR Development takes time and I rather focus I what I want in the immediate future than worry about the whole thing falling to ruins when it likely wont. Support indy devs they are facing true giants in their quest for success. Simply put if I am having fun I play if not I don't. I am currently playing.
  Posted 13 months ago by Master E | Permalink
- @ Master E
  Oh yeah, you're right I did misread your statement about the instant gratification, but on that note, I wonder if the devs actually play their game? And I mean really play their game... It feels like for them to have developed thus far and releasing the game in this state, they either weren't aware of the fundamental problems of the game, or they ignored them.
  But of course, we don't expect things to change overnight.
  My point about the pop ups and all, was that the game throws positive feedback at you non-stop, although it slows down later on, and beyond that initial 'Ta-dah' moment of novelty, there isn't much else. The user interface is fine, we don't have a problem with it. What I am referring to by mechanics and design are the way the users, NPCs and objects in the world can interact, that's one of the main points of this discussion.
  Yes Farmville is successful, but so is Justin Bieber's manufactured pop music. Nobody that is self-aware takes it seriously. Success is not reflective of quality.
  Posted 13 months ago by Raiyne | Permalink
- Raiyne,
  You can frequently find the devs in-game at events and activities arranged by the players. You can also see what levels they have achieved by looking at their profiles.
  The reason that the game has "fundamental problems" may be because they've created a game that is fundamentally different from what you expect. But it's certainly not because they don't play the game.
  Posted 13 months ago by WindBorn | Permalink
- Raiyne wrote: I wonder if the devs actually play their game? And I mean really play their game...
  While you have to realize that developing a MMO doesn't give you a lot of free time sometimes, you can follow the team's exploits like you can any other Glitchian:
  www.glitch.com/about/team/
  How's that for transparency?
  Posted 13 months ago by Warrender | Permalink
- Mmm, of course they play, but it's hard to be a dev and play the game like a regular player, hence the test period. Like I've observed in my own case, a big reason for why I'm still here is the fact that I saw the game grow and evolve- even though my contribution was minuscule, I still feel somewhat 'responsible'. I've formed an attachment that isn't based on current gameplay, but on my experiences through alpha and beta. Devs will also unavoidably form attachments to the world they've created that have nothing to do with how the game actually performs- they remember every single hour spent working hard on creating the content. Their appreciation of the game can't help but be skewed. They already love it- it's their baby. And as we know, parents are often blind to their children's flaws.
  (just because there's a slight danger I'll be misunderstood as hating on the devs: no such thing. The devs are awesome. They work hard and make beautiful things. They have my full support. Their communication with the Glitch playerbase could not possibly be better.)
  Posted 13 months ago by Cefeida | Permalink
- @ Raiyne
  Like WindBorn said the devs are around (considering I saw Herp Derp this morning in game and wondered why his toon doesn't reflect the name) besides that. The mechanics are like this when I logged in the first time and was hatched it said you can do just about everything with the keyboard. Years of mmos has made me shy away from clicking so I may not have noticed mechanical issues with the mouse cursor selection ( I did mention I miss things like that).
  As far as the games state. I have seen worse and better but none on browser alone. For a purely browser based game imho its fine atm and can only get better. I came in with expectations measured by playig many mmos (like many other of course). The fact is I cant really see where the game is right now since I look forward to where it will be in a year. Reading about where the game was and how it progressed to where it is I can only expect that it will get better in the future. Trying to shift the course of development to our wants is exactly what the devs are attempting to do.
  I cant nor would I try to convince you to see what I see in the game. However criticism that errs the path of constructive and becomes solely negative is simply not all that helpful. That doesn't mean you coddle the devs when their wrong (you call them out on it). You don't however accuse them of not playing their game or not being around (when they clearly are). I feel most of the complaints in your OP are valid however at the same time some are simply parts of the game that make Glitch Glitch.Either way discussion can be helpful and moving forward I hope this game always stays on this path of open communication.
  Posted 13 months ago by Master E | Permalink
- I'm a new (post-beta) player, and I just wanted to point out that I love that the community here is willing to discuss things like this rationally. In any other game community I would expect the OP to be shouted down with "You're wrong. Game is great. Leave if you don't like it". This is not the case here, and part of the reason I am loving this game and its community.
  I also wanted to say that I too feel like the game has fallen short of its promises of creativity, and players being able to affect the world in a meaningful, persistent and imaginative way. But I have looked at what the devs have planned, and I'm sticking around for the potential. I, too, like the laid-back nature of progression, and not being forced into specific ways of playing. As long as the devs keep updating (and from what the oldies say about the alpha and beta periods, it looks like they will) I'll be sticking around for quite a while.
  Posted 13 months ago by Xain | Permalink
- @Xain I think you've said what I was trying to beautifully and succinctly :)
  I am personally optimistic about the future of the game, and I am enjoying playing it for many reasons, not the least of which is the opportunity to engage with a passionate, respectful and articulate community :)
  Posted 13 months ago by Jezzle | Permalink

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