Topic

[Updated] Nerf Warning: Yellow Crumb, Purple and Silvertongue

Note: the original "Solutions" section of this post has been updated with more information. The changes described in this post have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

Executive Summary
In a few days we are going to make a change to the shucking behaviour of certain herbs and/or alter some herb and seed prices. What follows is a long explanation of why and a short description of some of the alternatives we are considering.[1] Feedback is welcome.

The Problem
Right now you can take a single yellow crumb flower and, given the right upgrades, shuck it to produce, on average, 2.66 yellow crumb flower seeds.

The flower and the seeds both have a base cost of 66 currants — but since one flower nets you 2.66 seeds, the act of shucking turns your initial 66 currants into 176 currants instantly. As The Rube would say: “Great deal, great deal”.

(The same is true of Purple Flower and Silvertongue, just with different base costs.)

It is fun to make lots and lots of money quickly (or lots and lots of favor, or lots and lots of iMG, or, in general, to watch your numbers go up quickly), but it is not a good thing for the game in the long term: inflation makes the game much harder for new players and renders whole other parts of the system useless because the “return” on other activities is so poor in comparison (which, in turn, reduces the choices available to return-minded players of all levels — it is harder to justify the actions/strategies that they more genuinely enjoy if something else is so over-powered.)

Background
There are two general classes of herbs: the first class (Gandlevery, Rubeweed, Rookswort, Hairball Flower) grow one herb per garden plot. Shucking any of these for seeds will always produce two seeds for each herb shucked. (For simplicity, I’m ignoring the effect of any upgrades, higher level skills, etc., and just talking about the base behaviour.)

The second class of herbs (Yellow Crumb Flower, Purple Flower, Silvertongue) grow three-per-plot and shucking these herbs for seeds is a more delicate operation: each time you shuck you have a chance of getting 2 seeds, a chance of getting one seed and a chance of getting nothing … the seeds are smaller and more delicate and harder to extract.

The odds for getting seeds from shucking the herbs in the second group were supposed to work with two random “dice rolls”, each with a 33% chance of producing a seed (and a 66% chance of producing nothing). Those two rolls together meant you had a 66% chance of getting a seed each time you shucked (really 66.6666…% — if you shucked a million seeds, you’d get 666,667 seeds, or very close).

However, when we set everything up to introduce herbs in the first place, the shucking odds were reversed and each dice roll had a 66% chance of producing a seed, instead of a 33% chance. This went unnoticed for a really long time (more than a year!) until we decided to look into what made Yellow Crumb farming so profitable and popular.

(You can see plainly how Class One herbs and Class Two herbs are totally out of balance when it comes to prices, shucking, and seeds by comparing the results of shucking: again assuming no higher level skills or upgrades, a sprig of Gandlevery, worth 40 currants, will produce 2 Gandlevery Seeds worth 13 currants each / 26 total: a 35% loss; one Rubeweed worth 55 currants will produce 2 Rubeweed Seeds worth 20 currants each / 40 total: a 27% loss, etc. Each of the Class Two herbs, on the other hand, will produce a 33% gain when shucked. With all the upgrades it is profitable to shuck all herbs from both classes: it is just much, much, much more profitable to shuck Class Two herbs.)

[Updated] Solutions
Note: the changes described here have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

We are going to be reducing the base cost of the seeds by half. (Contrary to what some players have said in the comments, this effects both the number of currants the vendors will give you for them AND the amount of favor produced when they are donated.)

This change will be made on Monday the 17th.

In addition, we will also be making changes to the base cost of tinctures (all of them will be increased) and to both the cost and ingredients required for nearly all potions (in all cases the prices will go up and the number of ingredients required will go down). This will make tincture and potion-making profitable and provide another avenue for herb usage aside from shucking and selling/donating seeds. The specifics on those changes will be announced when the change is live.

The original "Solutions" section follows, in italics:
There are two solutions we’re considering and they are both pretty straightforward: the first is fixing the bug and thereby reducing the number of seeds produced by shucking; the second is reducing the base cost of the seeds (which will make them worth less at vendors or when donated to shrines).

Even with this change, it will still be profitable to simply shuck herbs (once you have all the right skills/upgrades) so we will also be rebalancing the base costs for tinctures and potions to make it worth at least as much to create a tincture (or use the herbs for other purposes) as it would be shuck the equivalent number of herbs. That could mean some improvement/boost in the herbs’ “functionality” as well.


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[1] In the past we've only announced changes at the time we made the change because we figured that was the fairest thing for everyone (people who missed the announcement were not at a disadvantage and everyone felt the effects at the same time). But when we made the change to upgrade tickets earlier this week there were many requests for advanced notice and so we’re trying that, as an experiment.

Posted 90 days ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • I hope none of them will
    Posted 88 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WalruZ - Stoot said about 9 days ago that a revamp to food was coming, plus new recipes.

    http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/26517/#reply-274981
    Posted 88 days ago by Belle Z. Bub Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks stoot, for your lovingly crafted and well thought-out response to the yellow-crumb nerf. I can't imagine any other game where we'd get such an indepth explanation as to an upcoming game change...we are truly spoiled, so thanks. (Anyone thinking of leaving? Before making a scene and rage-quitting, go check out what's out there. Just go have a look-see. If you don't come running back here, I'll smile and kiss a pig...hell, I will anyways. But seriously, TS has set the standard for what a true interactive game can and could be...the bar has been raised, and I dare you to find anyone who has come close to meeting it, let alone surpassing it. Double dog dare you.)

    Not to beat a dead horse, or piggy, but stoot, you make the point that "inflation makes the game much harder for new players and renders whole other parts of the system useless because the “return” on other activities is so poor in comparison (which, in turn, reduces the choices available to return-minded players of all levels — it is harder to justify the actions/strategies that they more genuinely enjoy if something else is so over-powered.)"

    I couldn't agree more, which is why it was so distressing as a newish player to see folks making such bucks off of factory-farmed piggies (and presumably still doing so). Yeah, I could have simply cowboy'd-up and joined the crowd, but purposefully over-crowding and over-nibbling piggies is not something I want to do, no matter how profitable it may be. This again is why yellow crumb has been so attractive to me personally. In nerfing the whole herb thing (which was never all that lucrative to begin with, except for yellow crumb, which as others have pointed out seemed to be a righteous "bonus" given the lengthy growing time) I do hope you might consider other nerfs down the road, too, especially those regarding treatment of piggies. 

    Why is it that piggies starve to death, or complain about over-crowding? This seems to serve no purpose whatsoever. Those of us who care about our pixelated porcine don't engage in activities that promote piggy suffering (such as willful overcrowding for profit purposes) because seeing their unhappiness makes us unhappy. So why not simply cap it? Set a limit for overcrowding, and prevent players from exceeding that limit...seems fair and reasonable to me. Also, enough with the starving piggies. With the addition of home streets, there's gonna be a lot more of those, and again, there seems to be no purpose for it. Chickens and butterflies don't starve, why should piggies? Along those lines, why should any critters be made unhappy when placed in towers? Either make the critters ok to be there, or prevent players from placing them there, period.

    Sorry, not trying to "hijack" this thread or steer it off-topic, but only trying to point out why this yellow crumb nerf is distressing to me personally, when I feel there are other more pressing nerfs to be had. For many of us, harvesting yellow crumb WAS leveling the playing field...and now it's no more.

    With all that said, let it be known that my subscription is ending at the end of this month, and I have full intentions of renewing it. I wholeheartedly believe in the TS team and their efforts, along with our extremely involved and proactive and vocal community, and I am invested emotionally, financially, and soulfully in this game, and I can't wait to see it flourish.

    With THAT said, I'm gonna be taking a break for a little bit. Not cuz I'm pissed off at the nerf, that's not it at all. If anything, this nerf has only illustrated to me how much I love this game and community...and maybe I love it a bit too much. I think it's time to step away for a little while, and spend more time with my rl fauna, and experiment with rl food recipes, and tend rl gardens, and maybe devote a little more time to doing rl good work. I understand perfectly TS's need for "balance" in the game, and I need to tend to my own rl "balance" for a bit. 

    Now's the time to shuck em if ya got em, and the temptation is strong to take my new gardening potions and harvest the fricken hell out of yellow until Monday, but...nah. Somehow that just seems...I dunno...desperate, maybe? Granted, if you ARE desperate for currants, and I know some of you are, then by all means...full steam ahead! Lemme know, and I'll float some potions your way! But for me, I guess it goes against the grain of what TS is trying to do in balancing (though of course, in announcing it ahead of time they pretty much gave us free reign to do just that!) and also against what I'm striving for in my own life...a sense of balance. So...I'm gonna try to resist temptation and instead take a much needed siesta...catch ya on the flipside! :D

    Love you all...looking forward to partying with ya on my return! xoxo!

    Oh PS - I'd also go with option 2, just because reducing the number of seeds has more of an impact on actual gardening, whereas reducing the cost per seed only impacts profit...just my 2 cents.
    Posted 88 days ago by KitchWitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 6 people took advantage of my offer, but I could only credit 5 of them:
    "Butler (SchWM)  Oh, I have 1 Yellow Crumb Flower, but I don't remember who gave it to me. It must be for you!"

    So, there are still two 40-credit gifts waiting to be got.

    --Me
    Posted 87 days ago by SchWM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • KitchWitch - all animals dislike overcrowding, not just pigs.

    Pigs starve if you don't feed them, but they live forever otherwise.  Chickens and butterflies  get squeezed/milked to death and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

    You can tell there's a difference, because the piggies are happy when they're nibbled, whereas chickens and butterflies are more likely to register their displeasure.  They're probably actually hurting
    Posted 87 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, I'm curious as to why those who get very upset about piggies,  rarely seem to have a problem cruelly exploiting the conscious beings that are trees, in some case hacking them to death, or mining the rocks that cry out so pitifully for help.  Why are their lives worth less than the piggies?
    Posted 87 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Awwh, chickens.like it too.

    "Psssst! I don't mind really."
    "Oh go on then: one more squeeze. Hic!"

    Sometimes "Buk!" really DOES mean "Buk!"

    --Me

    p.s. And the sparkly rocks actually ask you to "Pick me! Pick me!"
    Posted 87 days ago by SchWM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • They're just victims of propaganda, making them think that's what they want!
    Posted 87 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Have just seen this thread and I think the chosen solution is the best course of action.
    Reducing the seed price certainly seemed the most natural and fairest solution when reading through the description of the problem provided.
    It only really affects those selling the seeds (and thus profiting) rather than general herb farmers and the change to the potion and tincture prices seems like a good idea too.

    I also think that posting details of the why and wherefore of big potential changes is a really good plan.
    I think that part of the problem of some of the big contentious changes in the past has been how sudden they have been with no apparent recourse if you dislike them.
    To introduce the idea more gradually and with justifications, then to allow debate can only be helpful over all.
    This is particularly important given the readiness of TS to embrace other solutions when initial solutions have proven unpopular and others have suggested more amicable solutions.
    To have the debate before the change thus heads off a lot of the anger and confusion.

    So, to summarise, thank you, TS, and keep up the good work!
    Posted 87 days ago by Dr Evanzan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you'd like to continue to encourage people to think of others and help others first, then I would suggest making the ability to shuck lots of seeds a reward. You have to plant a certain number of seeds in the community gardens or plots BEFORE you can win the ability to shuck lots and it is only good for 1 minute, like when you drink an essence. You can cash in when you are ready, but the reward does not transfer and cannot be sold. (So say you win a potion when you've given enough. To keep it too from being sold for big bucks, it can't be transferred or sold) So you HAVE to plant for others first or have smaller amounts. 

    Rewards could also be for giving things to others, especially new players. Badges for lowballing prices in the auction. Or even a reward for that, too. a cool collectible - the kindness cubicle. :)
    Posted 87 days ago by AngelTeri Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lowball prices in auction generally benefit the players who work the auctions for profit, not new or currant-poor players; lowballing in the auction is fine if you're doing it to sell your stuff in a hurry, but if you're trying to do something kind for people, there are more effective ways.

    And niceness that's game-mechanically enforced isn't really all that nice.
    Posted 87 days ago by Fnibbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Thanks stoot, for your lovingly crafted and well thought-out response to the yellow-crumb nerf. I can't imagine any other game where we'd get such an indepth explanation as to an upcoming game change...we are truly spoiled,"---KitchWitch

    Yes, this. We are truly spoiled here. Thank you TS :)
    Posted 87 days ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Regardless of if we like the nerf or not, I give kudos to Stoot for taking the time to actually hear what we think about it. Know how many other games I know of that do that? None. He knew it needed to be done, but instead of just picking how he wanted to do it, he asked us for our input. Whether I like the nerf or not (which, I will be honest, I dont lol) I love the way he handled it.

    And this is why I love Glitch. I cant think of a game with better devs on it. And actually, Elder Scrolls on my 360 not withstanding, I cant think of a better game, either.
    Posted 86 days ago by Serenity's Mommy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • These changes have now been made — all the details are listed in a separate forum post.
    Posted 86 days ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
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