Topic

Our Collective Efforts Directed to Good

Tiny Speck, as many others have, I've invested many hours into this game, and had a ton of fun along the way, but as I think about this game leaving beta and really trying to be a never ending game, player burnout is going to always be an issue.  I think a lot of players, including myself at some point, are going to say, "How much time am I wasting on this, even though its fun/additictive?".

I'd really like to see the collective efforts of all the right arrow/left arrow/enter key mashing somehow manifest itself into some benefit larger than the game.  Someone manged to take protein folding and turn it into something enjoyable and with societal benefits.  I understand you don't want to introduce something alien/out of context to the world of Ur, but maybe feats could somehow matter in a larger sense than leaderboards and img rewards. The most simple approach I can think of would be to simply tie the collective work of Glitches to charitable contributions TS would make in the real world.  But really maybe there are some puzzles we can solve or tasks we could complete in game in way that fit in the world and that in aggregate would help solve some real world problems.

Its a big task TS, but you've got a lot of imagination at your disposal!

Posted 89 days ago by Kleb Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

Previous 1 2
  • ugh, no thanks
    Posted 89 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No thanks, I  come here to forget RL problems

    I'll try and save the world from itself when I'm not playing in Ur

    PS shouldn't this be in the Ideas Forum?
    Posted 89 days ago by IrenicRhonda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah... No thank you.   It's a game.  That's what it is.  
    Posted 89 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ur is not in reality. Let's keep it that way. Glitch is here for escapism.
    Posted 89 days ago by Pixieyelsraek Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Would agree this should be invisible in game. Would be more like forums where the results are outside game and you can choose to ignore or participate.
    Posted 89 days ago by Kleb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No thanks, I come here for a break from real life and work. I think if a game was to be tied to a real world charitable cause that is something that the developers would have to have in mind from the very start, as the entire purpose for the game. Expecting TS to add something of that magnitude at this point is asking too much. 

    Plus, I shudder at opening the can of worms that would come with deciding what charitable causes the game would support. If a game was designed right from the get-go to support a particular cause, then people who believed in that cause would be able to sign up to play. Adding something now would almost be pulling a bait & switch. Imagine if I had invested money in an ice cream company and then suddenly that company told me that some of my money was going to go towards selling fried chicken. I may not have anything against fried chicken, but it isn't the reason I invested my money in the company.  
    Posted 89 days ago by Lynnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • -1 if you want to make charitable contribution, do it; don't try to push it off onto others
    Posted 89 days ago by Janitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The charity idea was a poor example and not really what I was getting at. Sadly like a lot of brainstorming sessions this has devolved pretty quickly into an analysis of why something won't work rather than what could be. Then again maybe it is really a crappy idea, though I think it has merit if well thought out and executed.
    Posted 89 days ago by Kleb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, there are some pretty harsh responses!  The OP is very well-meaning, there's no need to squash him flat.  You don't agree with the idea, fine.  But take it easy, your opinions are valuable, and can be stated in a friendly manner.
     "Play Nice!"
    Posted 89 days ago by Phoebe Springback Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Don't like this idea, for the reasons above.

    Would also like to point out that not everyone feels that playing and enjoying a game is wasting time, relaxation and time away from life's problems is valuable.  I actually find it really relaxing and meditative.  I get bored sometimes and go do something else but I don't feel guilt about the time I do spend playing

    If you feel guilt about it then maybe game playing is not for you.  Maybe some other pastime where there is an end result (knitting, carpentry, whatever) would be a better fit.   You could raise funds with or donate the finished articles.

    Ur is not of the world,  it is a place where we can escape.
    Posted 89 days ago by Miss Parsley Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Kleb-I agree with your sense of "good" but also agree with others that this is not the purpose of this game. I would propose that you look to other avenues. It would be a great idea for the masses that support Glitch to give to a charity (any cause) but that takes money and/or time. Many have there own personal struggles they are dealing with right now. Glitch helps to rebalance one's life of "crappy stuff that's happening to me in the real world" with "fun stuff I wish could happen every day but realistically know that it can't". It is a tough job but I think TS has done it extremely well.
    Posted 89 days ago by Holly Waterfall Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This post really wasn't about me, but a thought on how to enhance this game for the sake of the game itself with an additional social dynamic that is clearly already an underpinning of the game framework.  Another level that adds to its richness, without taking away from everything we already love about Glitch. Clearly from the posts so far, this is either a terrible place to explore this kind of idea, or an idea poorly presented or conceived.  I surrender and will spend some time with my focusing orb now.
    Posted 89 days ago by Kleb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You might like this site.
    freerice.com/
    Posted 89 days ago by Lucille Ball Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Took the words right out of my mouth, Lucille!
    Posted 89 days ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, there are some pretty harsh responses!  The OP is very well-meaning, there's no need to squash him flat. 

    This is the internet, m'am.  'Tain't beanball. 
    Posted 89 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Clearly from the posts so far, this is either a terrible place to explore this kind of idea, or an idea poorly presented or conceived.

    Right; you haven't fully conceived it, and you've attempted to get your target audience to develop it for you. Rather than deliver a fully formed elevator pitch that's ready to earn buy in, you've asked random strangers in the elevator to write a pitch for something they haven't bought into.

    I do appreciate the gist of the idea though. I liked SETI @home (and various follow-ons and similar projects) because it a) made use of underutilized resources in a manner that had no effect on my existing activity and b) was opt-in only. To parallel a strangely formed analogy above, forcing your users to contribute to something they had no initial interest in is a problem; giving them the option to contribute isn't entirely unproblematic, but it is an improvement.
    Posted 89 days ago by Dr McFluffles, MD Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Elevator pitch: It's like freerice meets rollerball meets death race 2000.

    VO: A time of war.  <slomo pan shot of unhappy animals, a rook's shadow passes overhead momentarily obscuring a pig, who turns to look at you, sadly.>
    A coming of age. <A new glitch emerges from imagination, clad only in free account clothing>
    A battle of wills. <a floating giant's head slowly turns to face the camera; a second giant's multiple eyes roll up to confront the other giant>
    For the tastiest pasta! <close up on a bowl of steaming saucy goodness, curls of parmesan slowly melting.  A shadow of a fork moves over its surface>

    Coming this summer.

    Now where's my funding?
    Posted 89 days ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Kleb That sounds extremely complex to do correctly, but I don't dislike the idea!

    @Crashtestpilot Haha nice plot, I totally wanna see that animated in a glitch machinima, whether it's dumb or not :p
    Posted 88 days ago by Lemo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes we tend to be very helpful in Ur, but it shouldn't have to carry over to the real world events. If TS had said they were donating X to this because of this _______. Or if they said they were going to give some money to ______   and wanted our input. That is one thing. But actually as part of the game mechanic, well....i think its a very bad idea. People including myself, come here as an escape, and i don't want somewhere i escape to, being taken away from because the problem of life are perpetually present. The fact that they aren't is part of what i like about this game, and i think asking / requesting what you proposed would drastically alter that.
    Posted 88 days ago by Lyrical DejaVu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If TS felt inspired (and able) to make charitable donations, that'd be cool.  And I'd really love to see what ideas they have in the realm of applying game play to real-world computational problems (like the protein-folding thing, or the whack-a-mole text recognition correcter thinger).  But the latter really has to be baked-in -- you have to design game play around the computational task you're applying people power to -- and tying charitable donations to feats would I think feel really artificial and weird.
    Posted 88 days ago by Fnibbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Kleb, I am sympathetic to your idea in that I sometimes struggle with justifying my time here when there is so much to be done in the real world. And by the real world, I'm really talking about a lot of things... from cooking dinner to addressing global warming, from dealing with the laundry to solving world hunger. Intellectually I know that I come here to decompress and chill out, but emotionally I have a hard time assigning value to that even though I know I should. Boy wouldn't it be convenient if I could justify the time with some noble achievement tacked on to it?

    But the others are also right. Adding on a charitable aspect to this game would bring real world problems into a place people go to escape them. And for every charity out there, there's probably a person who has an issue or conflict of opinion about it - how to pick one that represents everyone? And how to add it in without reminding people who don't want to be reminded in this venue that the world can be a terrible place?

    But there is a simple solution that can answer some of the need you feel without imposing on others, and I'll throw down the gauntlet for you. Start logging your hours on Glitch. Make yourself a deal... say, "I'll donate a dollar to Charity X for every Y amount of time I spend on Glitch." Or, "I'll play Glitch but in order to justify my time there, I will also volunteer at Such-and-such charity/hospital/shelter/etc." Start a group for others who want to do the same thing, and put a signpost up on your street to let people know about it.
    Posted 88 days ago by Adar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow. I am genuinely shocked by these responses. I think it's a great idea, and could easily be incorporated into a calendar event. I'm not suggesting that TS, a tiny baby start-up, pay for whatever charitable event, but I bet there are plenty of Glitchen who would shell out cash for things in the virtual world that they could not have otherwise. That seems simple enough to me--and wouldn't involve daily game mechanics. Just a single item that Glitchen pay for and the proceeds go to a worthy charity? Yeah--I'd buy a Golden Fart Knocker if I could display it in my tower and know that for every $400 raised a village had clean water.
    Posted 88 days ago by Booknerd Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Anteater-I challenge myself at home. I wash dishes-then get to play for a bit. Clean the bathrooms-that's worth about an hour. Cook dinner-yea I get to play while it digests. Washing clothes-well sure, I can play while the machine washes and dries them and then I'll fold them up when done. I give to charity around the holidays when my finances allow it.
    Posted 87 days ago by Holly Waterfall Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I do a reward system for myself, too. I'll cook/clean 1st and my reward will be Glitch time. But this thread has got me to thinking that I could make a small charitable donation whenever I hit certain Glitch milestones.
    Posted 87 days ago by Adar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As far as "collective actions that benefit everyone" is concerned, I have gotten the sense that goal is what Feats were created for. Longer-term collective tasks that anyone can contribute to, that ultimately build something big…in-game.

    We've only seen one Feat thus far, but everyone's efforts had a real end result. I'm excited about future Feats.
    Posted 87 days ago by dm Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Good point dm. I had forgotten about the Feat because I wasn't able to help at that time.
    Posted 87 days ago by Holly Waterfall Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, so when I first saw the title of the thread I thought it was going to be about some in-game collective good, and thought 'hey cool, I like!' but then I opened the thread and it wasn't like that but was all full of 'boo this is the worst!' which made me sad.

    Also, what dm said.
    Posted 87 days ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Astounded by some incredibly harsh and immotivate replies, I am simply thinking that yes, the original idea is a wonderful one, and that there would be a semi-easy solution to make Glitch a great contributor to the greater good.

    Dear TS, wouldn't it be possible to have an optional, second access to the game integrating some @home client running in background?

    You could in example play as usual, or play (possibly) imperceptibly slower while the power of your computer is used to calculate protein folding or something of that sort.

    I am pretty sure that the @home people would love to help, and I'd be proud to "invent" a new medicine while petting bubble trees...
    Posted 87 days ago by Ayzad Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Anteater:  You've just won the High-Functioning Housekeeper badge!
    <Achievement unlocked>
    <New Quest>
    <Wash your car!>

    :)

    Gamify Life!

    @Ayzad: +11!
    Posted 86 days ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ayzad - why not just have whatever that is running in the background anyway?  why does TS need to do it?
    Posted 86 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you want charity done, you need to do it yourself.

    Telling others to do charity is essentially putting them into a position where, if they refuse, they'll be the ones who look bad (and not you, regardless of whether or not you, yourself, do charity). Granted, if you're a volunteer already working in a charity asking for donations, you sort of need to ask others to contribute if your own charity project is to go anywhere, but that's not the case here. You don't have a charity project; you're asking someone else to make a charity project.

    It's not someone's responsibility to take on charity projects just because others think it'd be cool if it happened. It's not their responsibility to go out of their way so other people don't have to go out of theirs. If you're committed to it, you can do things for the greater good of others yourself. You don't need TS to do it for you. You can even do something within the game itself without any money - for instance, "for every visitor to my street I'll go to freerice.com and give 200 grains".

    And if TS decides to add a charity aspect to Glitch, that's great. If they don't, that's fine. This is a for-profit game, not a nonprofit organization, after all.
    Posted 86 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This marks yet another thread where reasoned responses that disagree with the OP are noted as "harsh" or "hostile" or "immature" 

    What were they supposed to write?  "I disagree, but I don't want to explain why because that would be harsh."
     
    or maybe: "I disagree, but I'll pretend to agree because discussion of differing viewpoints is immature."

     or perhaps: "This idea makes me uncomfortable, but I will gladly sit by and let my game become a venue for arguing about which charities are worth supporting because to speak up would be hostile"
    Posted 86 days ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • *spends a minute with ctrl-F*

    that's funny - while two people did use the word "harsh", the only instance of both "hostile" and "immature" in this thread comes from the person who is complaining about this response...  can't help but wonder -- projecting much?
    Posted 86 days ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • <tongue firmly embedded in cheek>I disagree with all of you, but am too nice to say why.
    Or maybe I'm just passive aggressive.
    Or maybe I don't disagree with you and am just saying that I do for no particularly good reason.
    I don't even know anymore.
    </tongue>
    Posted 86 days ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Saucelah, have you considered attempting to read the responses that people have in pile-on threads where they say pile-ons are unkind and bad for the community? Because it seems like every time there's a pile-on on the forums you come on to defend the people doing the piling on, and it might be easier for everyone if you tried turning on your empathy gland before piling up the straw men.
    Posted 86 days ago by Pixel Dirigible Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm not really certain that so called pile-on threads are bad for the community.  The idea that people would be hesitant to make their opinion known because of what other people would think of it is a little chilling.  People absolutely have to feel free to speak out.  And that goes both ways.  People must face the reality that they might encounter people, even a lot of people,  who disagree with them. 

    What's an empathy gland, and what sort of metaphor is 'piling up the straw men'?  It's sort of weird to visualize.
    Posted 86 days ago by Feldspar Gravity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @kat: or maybe by "yet another thread" I was referring to many threads and variations of the same theme.  Just a thought. 

    @Pixel: Or maybe I don't believe there is such a thing as "pile-on threads."  I believe there are threads where people put forth ideas, and other people respond to them.   Should everyone count the negative responses and divide by the number of pages before expressing disagreement?  Perhaps negative and positive responses could each be separately tallied, and only if the side where your opinion lies is significantly flagging should you make a post?  
    Posted 86 days ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @shhexy corin - You know, sometimes people do nice things because it's nice, not because they have to.

    However, if you really need a greed-based response: because by including a @home client in Glitch the positive PR downfall for TS would be exceptional, gaining them more players and attention. Which financially-wise means attracting more investors, or having their stocks (if any) gain value.

    And if you are already thinking "and what would I get from this?": more assets means more people working on the project, more servers available, etc. - which translates into an even better/larger/more varied game to play.
    Posted 86 days ago by Ayzad Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm sort of baffled by how many people are against any action in the game contributing to some outside cause...really? if it had no effect on your gameplay and was just embedded smoothly, you'd still have a problem with the game giving to charity/helping in some as-yet-unspecified way? why?

    granted, this post seems highly hypothetical, but I'm just flabbergasted at the negative (no, not "hostile" or "harsh") response it got, right off the bat.
    Posted 86 days ago by Slugbug Subscriber! | Permalink
  • On Facebook, there is a game called WeTopia, that aims to combine charity and a game in the Farmville category.  Even the idea of doing good in the world couldn't keep me interested in playing yet another social extortion game for more than a month.  Part of the problem was that progress was minuscule; at the end of that month, none of the charity projects that I pledged my time to got enough funding to actually send the food or books or vaccines that they were supposed to give.  

    Running a non-profit charity also requires a very particular set of skills.  Ask anyone who runs a real charitable group what problems are caused by all the well meaning but ignorant people who start tiny little charities after any particular disaster.  Most of what they try to collect ends up doing no one any good, because they don't know what people actually need, or how to get it to them.  I'd rather that TS continue being the best game developers they can be, and leave the charities to the experts.  I also agree that the arguments over whether any specific charity is deserving or a higher priority than another will cause unnecessary grief in the community.

    The best way I can think of incorporating the kind of social good idea you're aiming at into Glitch, is making some of the optional repeatable puzzle type quests tie-in with some of the puzzle type hive-mind projects that are already out there.  The protein folding project is a good example, as is the galaxy shape project;  I'm sure there are other similar things out there.  Though it sort of begs the question of why you don't just spend half of your saved up fun time doing those at their own sites.
    Posted 86 days ago by KhaKhonsu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Seconding KhaKhonsu and others upthread: there's quite a few "crowdsourcing" and "citizen science" projects out there that Glitch might be able to gamify in fun, interesting ways. (From an I-read-reports-on-this-for-a-living perspective: the Glitch badge angle is also intriguing; Fold-It has achievements, but they're not part of a larger game context the way Glitch badges would be.)

    I'd be happy to scare up examples for TS staff to look at. (I teach research-data management and digital preservation to future librarians and present researchers; crowdsourcing is VERY on my professional radar.) With luck and good programmers, which TS obviously has, this might even turn out to be a hook that could keep long-time players around.

    Depending on what TS's cashflow and the in-game economics look like, another approach might be the Improbable Island way: give small (but over time, reasonably significant) in-game rewards to players who choose to participate in World Computing Grid or a similar exercise.
    Posted 86 days ago by Loonacy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I see people purporting to be advocates of charity engaging in nane-calling Thats not very charitable.

    Charity begins at home. It's shocking to see people climbing on a bandwagon to poke into Tiny Speck's operations and tell them how to conduct their business.
    Posted 86 days ago by Feldspar Gravity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • charities = good 
    games = good
    So games giving to charity must be good and any negative reaction is surprising? 

    What about picking the charity?  What if you don't agree with the charity's mission?  What if you believe in the mission but not in the particular charity?  I think cancer is bad, but I won't let any of my money go to the American Cancer Society, for very important, very personal reasons.   I'm sure there are others out there who have similar feelings about other organizations. 

    The whole thing is such a potential mess that I'm surprised anyone could be surprised by the reaction.  
    Posted 86 days ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In reading this, I don't think this was a fully formed idea to begin with.

    I think the thought was more "how can you get people to keep playing long term without making any changes to the game the way it is now?" which seems flawed. The OP refers to the game as key mashing, which clearly implies some sense of boredom already... so let's take that boredom, and make it do something good for the world? I don't understand how that works. If I was bored with the game, no amount of donation to charity would keep me playing. Sorry. 

    I don't think that adding real world impact to a game that didn't have that aspect as part of its original design is a good idea. There are too many personal feelings involved in choosing a charity, and there is no reasonable way for the people of TS to choose a charity that would make everyone happy. I don't think it's mean or rude to say that I don't like someone else choosing a charity for me. I like to invest research into the charities that I give my time and money to. Sometimes, a charity that seems good and well intentioned does things like sell your hair instead of giving it to kids with cancer.
    Posted 86 days ago by Kristen Marie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd object in the same way that I object to the "take off or donate" social pressure that Whole Foods exerts. Who knows what charities they give the money to, but they get the tax break and credit as a "socially responsible company."

    I'll be responsible for my own philanthropy and don't want or need companies I do business with to "tax" me into charity. Most charities are actually scams anyway (spending most of the money they collect on administrative overhead).

    Having TS get involved in the whole sordid charity organization mess would be a huge drain and those efforts are better spent developing the game. If giving to a charity makes you feel good, then do it, but don't insist that others give as well.
    Posted 86 days ago by Janitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Having the game burn extra cycles doesn't make much sense, as a lot of us are in danger of CPU meltdown as soon as we enter our Glitch homes.

    I think the only way to integrate something constructive would be to do something like the protein folding game, although that is also extremely CPU-intensive and the community there doesn't really seem to understand how video games work or how to harness the boundless untapped resource of nerd game obsession.

    That said, it would be awesome to come up with some kind of game that has legitimate real world applications...something that computers suck at doing on their own, but that meat in a skull is pretty good at and that is at the same time as entertaining as playing a game designed to be an actual game.

    If we're willing to endlessly harvest/clear/water/plant/poop with a sluggish interface that quacks at us, then there must be some comparitively mindless task out there that would be at least as "fun" and have the side effect of actually being useful.

    The trick is to make it entertaining/profitable enough from a gaming perspective so that the grumpy people don't feel like they're being hornswaggled into being beneficial to society, they just like doing it because of the in-game rewards...or "fun".
    Posted 86 days ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would just as soon have Glitch concentrate on being Glitch.  
    Posted 85 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well said, WalruZ. Thank you.
    Posted 85 days ago by Reader Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am amazed that a group of people I generally know to be focused on positive actions and community support would respond so fervently against this.  No one was suggesting that you get popups every 5 seconds that remind you of starving ragamuffins with soulful puppy eyes and soot-streaked faces or whatever else would destroy your escapism so thoroughly.  The general idea here was not even about charitable donations but about focusing the energy we put in to the "game" half of Glitch in to simultaneously contributing to some ill-definedgreater good.  It seems like almost everyone hyper-focused on charities and how divisive they may or may not be rather than looking at the whole of the idea.

    As Biff Beefbat pointed out, a system designed to support problem-solving initiatives could do some great things without significantly changing your fun or even having the slightest impact on it.  You'd still get to do exactly the things you do now -- you'd just also get to solve some crazy advanced mathematics as a group or form a model of why dolphins play silly games that humans make up for them.  I'm making *these* things up, but I feel it's important to provide some firm examples that have nothing at all to do with charity since it's clear that was meant as an example.  Most of the people here should also know quite well that the game we have now is not at all the game we had a year ago, or two years ago, and those two games weren't really the same either.  So the general argument of 'adding major structural changes just Isn't Done!' is a bit of a dead-end.  Yes, it would be hard, and there would need to be a compelling reason to do it, but don't dismiss things just because they're hard.

    One last thing.  As far as I can tell, having a positive impact is perfectly in line with "Glitch... being Glitch".  Suggesting ideas for improving the game is also a defining characteristic of the local culture.  I am quite literally unable to count the number of player suggestions that are now an integral part of the game.  Disagreement is one thing, but if I can easily reduce an argument against something to "I don't want this because things aren't this way already" I can't possibly take it seriously.
    Posted 85 days ago by Magic Monkey Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It been very interesting to read all the commentary on this.  For those speculating, I'm not bored or frustrated with Glitch as it exists today, and the intent of this idea was strengthen the long term potential and marketability of the game so it succeeds for us all.  Its a very short list of games that can sustain an active audience for many years.  This game is still in beta, so I find it odd that people suggest any type of change that seems significant is off limits, especially when I see the large changes that have happened in beta.

    The charity idea definitely distracted from what I thought was a stronger idea of puzzles or tasks, designed in character for the game, that behind the scenes provide computational power for something more than the advancement of my Glitch.  I'm guessing people that don't like this idea also <del>dislike</del> <ins>don't see the connection to</ins> the quests where we get to make words from building blocks or solve a puzzle where we have to set colors into the correct order.

    I do hope this attitude of "charity is fine by not here" is a minority opinion.  Ignoring my suggestion for the moment, just about every company of any significant size has charitable giving as a budget item driven by employee or customer input.  I'd hate to see a backlash against TS if they decided to give back to the world however they saw fit.
    Posted 85 days ago by Kleb Subscriber! | Permalink
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