Topic

"Deadpan Dike"

Maybe there are other slurs/jabs/etc. in the game and I just haven't noticed them?

But this really rubs me the wrong way. (I am avoiding creating other potential names that you could use if you're going to take up this line of naming.)

Posted 16 months ago by clare Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I have yellow pansies growing all over my garden, they were my mother's favorite flower.  I am troubled by the suggestion that I should perhaps refrain from mentioning these flowers in conversations, lest someone find some possible traumatic association with the word.  Would someone like to annotate all such words that I'm supposed to be careful about using, or drop from my vocabulary altogether?

    Strikes me that we're poised on the edge of that slippery slope we often try to ignore or explain away. 
    Posted 16 months ago by Eleanor Rigby Subscriber! | Permalink
  • really???  for shit's sake.  it's a game!!!!!!!!!!  no one is making anyone play it.  that's the beauty of life.  you don't have to fix it, just do something else.  i was just wondering,  how many of you are in politics> 
    Posted 16 months ago by little peep Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No, Laurali, what I said was, "I was also familiar with it prior to attending college." Out of a post with six sentences, you chose to focus on one. Where I grew up it was almost NEVER used to describe a lesbian. My point being that "dike" is NOT "universally accepted" as a lesbian slur, even though it can ALSO have that connotation, based on context.

    @Eleanor Rigby - I agree.
    Posted 16 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Eleanor Rigby, i don't think anybody is suggesting that the word dike be excised from the dictionary.

    the issue is how the word is interpreted in the context of glitch street names, which often have double meanings.

    no one here is saying that your use of the word pansy to refer to flower is inappropriate.

    no one here is saying that we should stop referring to the geographic, topographic, engineering feature as being a dike.

    there aren't even many people suggesting that glitch change the street name!

    what is being suggested is that in the context of glitch street names often having double meanings and the term 'deadpan' being overwhelmingly used to describe people and not geography that isn't so crazy that some people will read the street name as a pun, and that some of those people will read it as both a pun and a slur.

    .. and that all the "for shit's sake!?", quit being so sensitive, PC Brigade on the march type reactions seem to be in mean spirits, or at least insensitive.

    and yes, yes, 'rapeseed oil' did get renamed 'canola oil' for marketing purposes, but that was quite a bit more on-the-nose-if-you-know-what-i-mean than 'pansy' will ever be when used in reference to the flower. i think pansies will continue growing just fine on that slippery slope.

    dike is a fine word too, for that matter, at least outside of pun-rich environments. perhaps even inside of them too.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Tally

    "If the name is taken as a pun and play on words, as so many names in Glitch generally are, then the personifying adjective in combination with a homonym for a common homophobic slur can be interpreted as legitimately offensive. It's the pun that moves it from the category of 'harmless geographic feature' to 'offensive term for a lesbian.'"

    This still ignores (1) the arbitrariness of your ignorance baseline (2) the intent and, most importantly, (3) the plausibility of the interpretation. There are dozens of ways you can interpret a pun. Adding to this, the idea of "shared experiences" goes out the window when you add this venue for interpretation. By adding interpretation of wordplay like this as a venue, you increase the number of ridiculous scenarios exponentially. 

    "I think it's hard to argue that the context of Glitch doesn't encourage players to look for alternate meanings in phrases and names. This alternate meaning - whether or not it was intentional - is inappropriate for the tone of the game."

    Since you used the English example, I'll go back to it: in an English class you must also defend the plausibility of your interpretation. A Marxist interpretation of Shakespeare is interesting and potentially valid but completely not probable and it's ridiculous for a Marxist to take offense at any of Shakespeare's works because of that.

    There are hundreds of ways to interpret meaning. Just because one interpretation exists does not establish that it's probable or even valid. Clearly there is one interpretation of Deadpan Dike -- the geological one -- that's both more probable and more valid and less offensive than the interpretation you are advancing. I could come up with many, many bad and potentially offensive interpretations for street names and that's no grounds for censorship.

    @Laurali

    "nleseul (from what I can understand) is talking about events on a much larger scale than a death in the family or being bad at English. "

    Deaths in the family are one of the largest-scale events in human kind. It could possibly be the most widespread traumatic event known to any person. You cannot dismiss someone's offense to "knock 'em dead" as "it's not as large-scale as gay-bashing" because it is so, so much larger with respect to how many people have experienced it. Statistically you are outnumbered thousands to one.

    This is what I'm saying: you accept this particular instance because it's in your acceptable zone of ignorance, but you reject "knock 'em dead" as "not large-scale" enough, even though it could not possibly be larger. You think one person's offense is an "apple" and another an "orange." To accept the partiality and subjectivity of one offense no matter how incorrect is to subject the partiality and subjectivity of all offenses of that nature.

    "Also, it really bugs me that you claim it is ignorant to take words at a certain meaning."

    Taking "travesty" to mean "a disastrous scenario" is a lack of knowing that it means "a grotesque imitation." You could not have a more literal definition of ignorance. If this bugs you, then ignorance -- not knowing -- as a concept bugs you.

    @striatic

    In all (or hopefully all) cases, my analogy is preceded by the proper claim. Analogies are fine if used as support and not the argument itself. Further, most of the "analogies" you cite are actually examples, which are fundamentally different things. Examples are the product of following a set of conditions. Analogies compare those products.

    In spite of "deadpan", "dike" has an established meaning, which is why I mentioned "yellow journalism" in the first place. Unless "deadpan" is indisputably meant to be reference to the slur -- which it isn't, or we wouldn't be debating it -- the myriad ways you could construe "deadpan" take a back seat to "dike".

    "in any circle of people, the word 'yellow' is most commonly used to refer to the color yellow, whereas in many circles the word 'dike' evokes lesbians first and foremost. if anything the 'baseline ignorance' goes the opposite direction, with people not also knowing that it is also a geographical term."

    I don't think you've properly understood the idea. If you appeal to word frequency, any word that could be misconstrued by 51% or more of the population is worthy of forced change or censorship if they find it offensive.

    That alone is enough to discredit the idea. But "dike" is offensive to a minority. "Deadpan dike", which requires a certain punny interpretation by an audience of a very precise level of education, is offensive to a minority of a minority of a minority. Even if the appeal to frequency were enough it would still be invalidated by the comparable frequencies of the geographical word dike and the esoteric phrasing of "deadpan dike".

    "English Class"? again, horrible analogy. that's an academic environment, and no one's feelings are going to be hurt if you make a poor analysis of the meaning of a text. it also doesn't mean that there is only one correct reading of a text. plus  it was very sly the way you used "blatantly wrong" in your analogy and then slipped into talking about this thread. there's nothing "blatantly wrong" about reading "Deadpan Dike" as a slur, and while "dozens of people" have talked about how "Dike" can actually mean something other than a lesbian, those "dozens of people" have not described the interpretation as "wrong" and certainly not as "blatantly wrong".

    The environment of the analogy isn't central or even relevant to the analogy itself, unless you're referring to Laurali's comment where it was suggested that calling someone ignorant for not knowing the meaning of a word is offensive . I gave the analogy because in reading literature you are forced to make an interpretation and that interpretation can carry varying degrees of validity and plausibility. Few if any interpretations are "the correct one", but numerous interpretations are blatantly off.

    " the game already ha an *actual hell* in it, and no one has found that offensive, or at least hasn't publicly proclaimed it to be offensive. the thing that christans have been offended by isn't hell, it's the idea of donating to 'giants' as being some kind of idolatry. which i think is kind of a fair concern"

    This is why I specified "stupid interpretations". There are an unbelievable (really, you would literally not believe it) number of people who would construe the mere existence of the word "hell" in the game as an endorsement of hell. Most people believe Satanism is actually in praise of Satan, for Christ's sake. (lol) And really, idolatry? Most of the population doesn't even know what "idolatry" means, much less knows it well enough to be offended by it.

    "there are plenty of people in this topic who aren't sure if anything should be censored or who don't think the street name should be changed but who also don't think that the OP is being 'oversensitive' because her first reading of "Deadpan Dike" might not be that of the majority of players."

    I mentioned censorship because that was a sentiment in at least a few of the posts here. I didn't ever mention "oversensitiveness" or even target my arguments at clare. Please don't strawman my arguments after misconstruing my examples as strawmen. In fact, at the very beginning of my initial reply I said that it wasn't directed at clare or anyone in particular.

    Also, your cheap shot about empathy and logic -- I'll let the logical aspects of my posts stand for themselves, but you are no more or no less empathetic than I am being. I strive to be impartial, which sometimes clashes with the empathy that I may feel for others, but impartiality is more important.

    @nleseul

    "Same with "pale" or "bigger"—they may have negative associations for a reasonable number of people, but those associations aren't the first and only thing that comes to mind around the word."

    Again, this is taking your subjective idea of universality and extending it to all scenarios. For the people who have been traumatized by paleness or smallness to the point that they have an emotional wound from those issues, "pale" and "bigger" (the negative connotations) will be the first things that come to mind. It's still ridiculous to police language because of it.

    Since striatic has criticized me for assuming I'm arguing against censorship by default, I'll assume since you haven't corrected me on that aspect that your arguments against these words are arguments for censorship of those construals. 

    "The obvious cases are obvious because the racist meaning of the n-word and the Nazi use of the swastika are so predominant in our social consciousness that any other possible meaning gets drowned out. "

    No one is justified in telling an Indian that they shouldn't do anything related to the Manji or shouldn't show it because the Nazis corrupted the symbol's association. You could perhaps say that they should be cognizant of wearing the Manji around older people who may have been affected by the Holocaust, but that's about it.

    @Laureli

    "As a civil engineer you are looking at the word from a different context than people who aren't civil engineers."

    Again, this is an argument from frequency. If you take this road, you will end up in a quandary. Lesbians or gays in general  are a minority of the population. If you take the majority of the population's interpretation, you will come up with loads of very stupid interpretations that you will most certainly not want censored or enforced as the default.

    Further, you're asserting the primacy of one minority over another based on a few percentage points. Glitch has a street called "Tella Hella" and an entire level called "Hell", and much more of the English-speaking population will take offense to that than "Deadpan Dike". Do you think that should be removed too? I hope not.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Crepeist Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Do you think that should be removed too? I hope not."

    just keep punching that straw man.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic, you've improperly applied the strawman fallacy several times here. For it to be a strawman with any degree of certainty you need to demonstrate how the term I used is fundamentally different than another one. If you are going to use "strawman" as much as you have in this thread, please explain how a claim meets the criteria for strawmanning when asserting it is one.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Crepeist Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Laurali, you didn't grow up in a town with dikes.  Tiny Speck is located in (or at least really near) a city with dikes, although none have intentionally punny connotations (I'm sure Iona Dike, near Iona Beach and Iona Spit is unintentionally punny, but I digress). It's quite natural to refer to dike trails, dike streets and named dike sections here, so the main thing that stood out for me with regards to Deadpan Dike was that it was in the middle of a plain and, of course, EVERYONE knows a dike is near the water.

    Regardless, the point about letting bigots have the language stands.  Saying it should be renamed because "dike" is used offensively against lesbians is a lesser version of attempting to reconfigure the Red Swastika Society on account of the Holocaust.

    Whoops, guess the thread has to end now.
    Posted 16 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Another example pf political correctness gone awry.
    Posted 16 months ago by PittyPat is sad Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Deaths in the family are one of the largest-scale events in human kind"

    Deaths in the family are the largest-scale events in human kind, as you will never find a person living who has not or will not have a death in their family, because everyone dies.  However, death in itself is not offensive, just a very depressing event.

    "This is what I'm saying: you accept this particular instance because it's in your acceptable zone of ignorance, but you reject "knock 'em dead" as "not large-scale" enough, even though it could not possibly be larger. You think one person's offense is an "apple" and another an "orange." To accept the partiality and subjectivity of one offense no matter how incorrect is to subject the partiality and subjectivity of all offenses of that nature."

    Just because I've been raised in an area where dike or dyke overwhelmingly means lesbian, I am not ignorant.  Even apart from my own personal experiences, dike or dyke as a derogatory term is a reality for a great number of people and "knock 'em dead" as far as I know has no instances where it's been used to put other people down.

    "Again, this is an argument from frequency. If you take this road, you will end up in a quandary. Lesbians or gays in general  are a minority of the population."

    Even if LGBTQ community were minority (it's impossible to tell because many people are forced into secrecy about their sexuality due to society's ideas about it) there are many people who are not a member of the LGBTQ community who can still take offense to derogatory terminology.  I'm white and I get offended when I see racist remarks, I don't have to be a member of a particular community to understand when something is right or wrong.

    "Further, you're asserting the primacy of one minority over another based on a few percentage points. Glitch has a street called "Tella Hella" and an entire level called "Hell", and much more of the English-speaking population will take offense to that than "Deadpan Dike". Do you think that should be removed too? I hope not"

    Perhaps you didn't read my response.  I actually don't want the street to be renamed, nor do I want Tella Hella or hell removed for the game.  I am against censoring the game myself, but I do believe that everyone has the right to interpret how they will and if they are offended, I will respect their opinion.  I don't think anyone is ignorant because of how they view the world, I just think they see things differently than I do, and I love that everyone interprets things differently because the world would be a lot more boring if we all had the same thoughts and interpretations
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Think about the following categories of approach to your interpretation of "deadpan dike" as an insult or slur.

    Spelling:
    In general, the slur "dyke" and the geological term "dike" have completely different spellings. This is a good clue that no one is using a slur. If you don't want to be general, and argue that geology also has claim to the "dyke" spelling and that some people slur others with the "dike" spelling, consider the following:

    Probability:

    How likely is it that you have a problem with the word "deadpan?" Extremely unlikely, given that in itself that word isn't particularly insulting. It's merely a means of categorizing a type of humor. Some people are very good at being deadpan. Moving forward with the assumption that the word "deadpan" doesn't bother you or seem very insulting to you, we're left with only the word "dike."

    How much of a leap is it to interpret the name of a street as a jab at a group of people or even one person? A huge one. Now, if a character in the game was called "Deadpan Dike," you would have a stronger argument because that at least occurs within the realm of anthropomorphic things. Given that we're just discussing a geographical location, however, your assumption that the name is a slur against some people makes very little sense, especially when there is no precedent, either in this game or in any other context, for street names to serve as insults of any kind.

    What is the likelihood that this game would intentionally slur a group of people with its choice of street name as a play on words? Very unlikely. You may cite the idea that Glitch includes some plays on words, but I would submit that there are also clues as to what the joke is supposed to be. Given that the street isn't full of lesbians using dry humor-- it doesn't even hint at them-- I would argue that the street name probably has nothing to do with your perceived meaning.

    Now, what is the likelihood that the creators of glitch chose the word "dike" because it is a geological formation?  Given the game's inclusion of words like "cleft," "strat," "narrows," and "bluff," to name a few, I would say that it is pretty likely that this is the reason the word "dike" was chosen. At the very least, this is more likely than the idea that they chose the street name in order to slur a group of people.

    Ultimately, if you don't have a problem with the word "deadpan" and you're just complaining because the word "dike" has been used as a slur by other people in different contexts in your experience, you should consider the likelihood that that slur is being used here, and then reevaluate whether you really had something worthwhile to point out at all.
    Posted 16 months ago by darklingplain Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Laurali: First and foremost, sorry for misreading you about your position. I confused you for Tally, who said it was "inappropriate for the tone of the game" which heavily suggests censorship, and in replying to so many people at once I ascribed your name to the wrong argument. My apologies about that.

    "Deaths in the family are the largest-scale events in human kind, as you will never find a person living who has not or will not have a death in their family, because everyone dies.  However, death in itself is not offensive, just a very depressing event."

    Who says death isn't offensive? Death can certainly be offensive, especially when you make fun of the dead or don't treat it with what some people see as a serious enough tone. You said later on that "everyone has the right to interpret how they will and if they are offended, I will respect their opinion." One person's "very depressing event" is another person's "offensive event." Now, you're saying that your view of offensiveness is universal by saying that death "is not" offensive. You added the conditional that death in itself is not offensive, but then names in themselves are not offensive either.

    "there are many people who are not a member of the LGBTQ community who can still take offense to derogatory terminology.  I'm white and I get offended when I see racist remarks, I don't have to be a member of a particular community to understand when something is right or wrong."

    Yes, but the discussion is about trauma and those who experience it. Your previous response to this was that civil engineers look at the perspective of the world as those who are civil engineers. Whites in the vast majority of scenarios don't look at the world from the perspective of the non-white community.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Crepeist Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just as a note - I believe I said previously that I would not be bothered if the name of the street was not changed. And NOWHERE did I endorse censorship. Please keep your words in your own mouth.

    Do I think that "deadpan dike," as a pun, is inappropriate? Yes. But that's a far cry from saying that I want to censor the game. I just think that in a game where many things have double meanings it a) doesn't make you an oversensitive, overinterpretive weenie to find that double meaning offensive and b) when naming things, it would be reasonable to avoid words that can also be read as slurs. Say whatever you want, but there's a world of difference between pale/bigger/pansy and dike/dyke. Period.
    Posted 16 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Whites in the vast majority of scenarios don't look at the world from the perspective of the non-white community."

    And that doesn't seem at all problematic to you?
    Posted 16 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Say whatever you want, but there's a world of difference between pale/bigger/pansy and dike/dyke. Period."

    Sorry, but I disagree. There is absolutely no difference. Both "pansy" and "dike" have been bastardized from their original meanings. That doesn't meant that the original meaning is no longer valid.
    Posted 16 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I at no point argued that in either case the original meaning is no longer valid. I am saying that the word dike/dyke, used as an insult, is more vulgar and derogatory that the word pansy used as an insult, and is likely to do much more damage. Therefore it should be used with more care and consideration.
    Posted 16 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Has anyone won yet?
    Posted 16 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • it's a straw man because you keep railing against censoring the street name, when most of the people here, and specifically the people you are arguing with, have not advocated censoring the street name.

    its ridiculous, and you keep on doing it.

    the developers can censor the street name if they want, or not, and there you have it .. it is up to them to decide how conservative they want to be with their language.

    but snapping at the OP and calling them wrong for being sensitive to something that upon consideration can be read as a slur demonstrates a lack of empathy.

    just a couple months ago, someone expressed their concern about the grave markers appearing too christian, as they were crosses with flowers. stoot said something like "we figured the cross was a pretty generic grave marker" and then had a slew of people inform him that this was not, in fact, the case. then there was some banter about what might work instead, like a gravestone with RiP on it, which lead to the developers putting in a gravestone with SiH on it, for Squish in Hell - which was more generic, made people feel less uncomfortable, and was in fact hilarious.

    i'm not saying that that kind of adaptation is appropriate to this situation, but the general lack of "get-over-it-ism" certainly helped move the conversation along.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +The length of the path on a Möbius strip, striatic.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Tally

    "I believe I said previously that I would not be bothered if the name of the street was not changed. And NOWHERE did I endorse censorship. Please keep your words in your own mouth. Do I think that "deadpan dike," as a pun, is inappropriate? Yes. But that's a far cry from saying that I want to censor the game"

    Saying "I think [x] is inappropriate" is a pretty close cry to saying you want to censor the game, especially in a context like this one. If you didn't mean it that way then I'm in no position to debate what you mean. Unlike the questionable contexts for street names others have proposed, though, this context and the interpretation others would have from your quote is pretty clear-cut.

    "there's a world of difference between pale/bigger/pansy and dike/dyke."

    Again, this is just assuming your experiences with the word "dike" are more universal than they are. I've addressed this particular premise several times by this point but you're basing the likelihood of a construal entirely on how subjectively obvious they feel to you.

    "that doesn't seem at all problematic to you? [that whites in the vast majority of scenarios don't look at the world from the perspective of the non-white community]"

    Read the quote in-context. It was in response to someone saying "I'm white and I get offended when I see racist remarks, I don't have to be a member of a particular community to understand when something is right or wrong." For this example, we're talking about exclusivity particular groups have to experiences and how likely those groups are to share the other experiences of other groups, not whether it's morally problematic for those groups to have shared/not shared those experienced.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Crepeist Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I wont yell at the OP, or even say they are "wrong" for their views. No one is infact wrong...its just their view.  On that note, I am not a very PC person, I cant stand even the term PC. I much prefer to just be considerate. I wouldnt like to be called names, so I dont do it (99% of the time, LOL).

    However, when I read "Deadpan Dike" I truly thought of a water dike or a geological dike....OH, or even this pliers my step dad uses in his plumbing called Dikes - Deadpan is a type of humorous monologue, where the speaker is talking in a very monotone voice - Dry Wit.  What they will be saying is very hilarious, but they are saying it very matter of fact...I have a friend like this that just kills me! 

    I always just thought of a very monotone dike, that was for some reason hilarious.

    I never once thought of anything remotely condescending, rude, or belittling of another person and their sexuality.

    (Did you know that there is a Greek Goddess named Dike?)
    Posted 16 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It doesn't matter what Glitch chooses to put in their game - somebody, somewhere is going to be offended. In this case, it's the lesbians (and anyone in a QUILTBAG group) but you know what - when will people stop the effing hate in MMO's. Who really cares if the street is named Deadpan Dike? Does it change YOUR life? Does it effect YOUR job? No, it doesn't. I could be offended by trees or animals saying "jeez" because that's a world derived from Jesus (look it up, it's the truth). And I could come on this forum and throw a tantrum like a 4 year old diva and insist they change it. Rile up the "moral majority" and zealots and cause a whole world of chaos. But instead, I just shrug it off because it isn't hurting me. It isn't changing my life. It doesn't change the game in one iota. It's just a word. It's time to act like grown ass people. Glitch is a game, and if it offends you, you're welcome to stop playing it and find something that doesn't offend you. Don't expect everyone, everywhere to change everything because it offends you. [/rant]

    And before I get called intolerant or hated - I am an active human rights activist.
    Posted 16 months ago by Chester Mcfester Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I am saying that the word dike/dyke, used as an insult, is more vulgar and derogatory that the word pansy used as an insult, and is likely to do much more damage. Therefore it should be used with more care and consideration."

    Really? I would think both terms would be equally offensive when used as an insult. And, I have seen the self-named "dykes on bikes" but I have never seen a comparably self-named group of gay men referring to themselves as "pansies." Perhaps pansies on planes for travellers, or pansies on patrol for neighborhood watch groups?
    Posted 16 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic

    "it's a straw man because you keep railing against censoring the street name, when most of the people here, and specifically the people you are arguing with, have not advocated censoring the street name."

    In all of the cases where people have specified that they weren't against censoring the street name I have corrected myself for misconstruing their arguments. I am arguing diligently and passionately against censoring the name  because I realize that is a position the developers could take in response to some of the posts here even when only a minority explicitly advocates for censorship. Why yes, striatic, the developers can do whatever they want, and they will probably take the community's wishes into consideration. Hence the basis for many of the arguments in this thread.

    "snapping at the OP and calling them wrong for being sensitive to something that upon consideration can be read as a slur demonstrates a lack of empathy."

    This is a strawman. I never once addressed clare directly, which would rule out any probability of snapping.

    Further, I've been no more or no less empathetic to the people I've responded to than you have. Just because I don't hold your position doesn't mean I'm not empathetic. I've called people wrong, but "wrong" just means you've argued incorrectly, not that you're a bad person or that you're being unempathetic. It's far kinder to a person to be direct than manipulating their emotions by tiptoeing around what you actually mean. You've done the same to me and others here, at any rate -- saying I've strawmanned is equivalent to saying I'm wrong is equivalent to saying I've argued incorrectly. Sure, I've laid out claims in which people could be called ignorant, but I haven't called out any particular person ignorant, nor have I even "slyly" suggested it. I've laid out criteria for ignorance, but that's something you could get by looking at a dictionary. End.

    (And seriously, quit it with this "you're unempathetic" shit. For one it's an unjust character attack on me, but for two it's irrelevant to whether my claims are true, and I've made it a point not to make any personal attacks or pejorative remarks and have made my best effort to respond to only those points that relate to the validity and soundness of arguments.)
    Posted 16 months ago by The Crepeist Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "And I could come on this forum and throw a tantrum like a 4 year old diva and insist they change it."

    Sorry, can you quote the remark that made you think the OP or anyone else is being a 4-year-old-diva?  You ask when people will stop the effing hate in MMO's, but then turn around and say that people are throwing tantrums like 4 year old divas.  Adding you are a human rights activist at the end of your post doesn't make what you say before that acceptable.

    I think most people here are not asking for the game to change, but just for the community to be understanding that certain things can be taken in different ways by different people, and that instead of telling them they are wrong for how they interpret something we instead accept their opinions and not ridicule them for it.
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How to Win Arguments Online
    Posted 16 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • " I am saying that the word dike/dyke, used as an insult, is more vulgar and derogatory that the word pansy used as an insult, and is likely to do much more damage."

    Why exactly is it that you assume that one form of unpleasant, angry speech is less damaging than another?
    In fact, "Pansy" has been used to define effeminate men (and gay men who are in no way effeminate) for a very long time, thus it is, essentially, the exact same insult. Why would a slur used against manly or homosexual women be any more offensive or worse than a slur used against womanly or homosexual men?
    Posted 16 months ago by Biohazard Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lol Stormy!  That is great
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Audaria, if you think the emotional impact of dyke when used as an insult is equivalent to pansy, than I guess I can see why this wouldn't be an issue in your eyes. To me (and I would imagine others) they are not equivalent as derogatory terms.

    Crepist, there is a difference between sharing the experience of a group and looking at the world from their perspective. As a white person, I can't share the experience of an African-American person. But I can listen to what they tell me about their experience and use that in an effort to understand their perspective, rather than assuming that because something does not offend me it also shouldn't offend them.
    Posted 16 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Will someone please explain to me why "dyke" is worse than "pansy" when used in a derogatory fashion!!! Biohazard said it very well. They are essentially the SAME insult, with one directed at lesbian or "manly" females and the other directed at gay or "feminine" males. Is "dyke" worse because it's directed at women? If that's the reasoning, then it's bullshit! Either term, when used in a derogatory fashion, is derogatory!
    Posted 16 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How on Ur is this *still* going? Sheesh.
    Posted 16 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Biohazard, not all offensive words are equally offensive. There are many words for lesbians that I find less offensive than dyke, while still not being innocuous. However, maybe my perception that pansy is less damaging than dyke is not the common perception; if that's the case, I apologize. It has nothing to do with male vs female, and this conversation has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
    Posted 16 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just to throw in a change of pace...  As Wikipedia will tell you one meaning of dyke is a regional term for a dry stone wall, common in parts of the north of England (where I live) and Scotland.  The majority of houses in the dale where I live have names rather than numbers and the houses (and their names) are nearly all a hundred years or more old.  One such house, about a mile down my back road, proudly and prominently bears the name Dyke House.  I doubt that anyone local gives it a second thought.

    Okay - had a nice breather?  Let the next round begin.
    Posted 16 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's because everyone wants to have the last say so there .....Djabriil
    Posted 16 months ago by Phochai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, I think both sides have their points- I just don't think this thread's accomplishing much aside from putting people at one another's throats and reinforcing each poster's previously-held beliefs, and I'm amazed by the sheer amount of time, effort and vitriol that has been poured into this.
    That's all I'm saying.
    Posted 16 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am hereby offended by all of your offending offendedness, and I'm taking Stanley and going home. You cannot deny me my hat-love!

    I also hereby award the Supreme Victory of this thread to Stormy, and formally declare this thread pretty much fscking done. You're all right. Or, you're all wrong. Or, more than likely, some of you are right and some of you are wrong and most of you are perfectly justified in your own opinions and hopefully this mess has maybe made a few of you have a serious think.

    How we can go from adoringly declaring our love for each other from the midst of a purple no no driven conga line to an all-out "la, la, la, I can't hear yoooou, doodypants!" in less than a day is frankly beyond me. 

    I think you're all lovely. Perhaps I shan't go home just yet.
    Posted 16 months ago by Jennyanydots Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sorry, can you quote the remark that made you think the OP or anyone else is being a 4-year-old-diva? You ask when people will stop the effing hate in MMO's, but then turn around and say that people are throwing tantrums like 4 year old divas.

    No, I did not. That is you misconstruing my words based on your beliefs and opinions. You assume I made that comment directed at someone, when it was just a hypothetical situation being described. I said I could go and make a scene. Not that I could go be like soandso and tantrum like a 4 year old diva. 

    The point is, just because someone feels something is personally offensive it doesn't mean it has to become a community wide discussion or debate or issue. There are a lot of things I am offended by, and I can play the game, or I can choose to not play it. That's my choice. Like a lot of the posters have said, it's not a sexual slur. But somebody pointed it out, and now a lot of people are feeling offended. And yes, there have been more than a few comments regarding changing the street name because some find it offensive. My point is just that the game developers shouldn't need to change it. It's their game. The name isn't an offense. It's a perceived offense. And yes, I can see how it could be interpreted as anything based on a persons individual interpretation, that only makes it a personal issue. The game (as far as I can tell) is not sexual or political in any way, so if someone perceives a sexual offense, it's most likely a misjudgment. But, this is only my opinion. 

    I did not add that I am an activist for it to give my opinions validity. There is a chance that someone could take what I said and label me as intolerant or "hating on the QUILTBAG community" which couldn't be farther from the truth. We're all humans, and as I said, you can take just about anything in the game, and there's someone, somewhere in the world who will be offended. 
    Posted 16 months ago by Chester Mcfester Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Someone is wrong on the internet.
    Posted 16 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Tally

    "As a white person, I can't share the experience of an African-American person. But I can listen to what they tell me about their experience and use that in an effort to understand their perspective,"

    I agree, and I think that's in line with the response I made that spawned that quote. Remember, I was responding to: "As a civil engineer you are looking at the word from a different context than people who aren't civil engineers." This suggests that the plausibility of an interpretation is related to the primacy of the interpretation. Most whites won't look at non-white perspectives. Most non-civil engineers won't look at civil engineer perspectives. Most people who don't live in areas with dikes won't look at perspectives of people who grew up in areas with dikes. Yet you should be able to listen to what those engineers (and people who grew up around them, and people who grew up in areas with dikes, etc.) tell you about their experience, and not respond with "well, you're looking at the word from a different context."
    Posted 16 months ago by The Crepeist Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i don't know if dyke is worse than pansy, but i have heard both used as slurs and they're both pretty bad. for the most part i agree that they're very similar insults.

    the main difference between the two, other than the gender reversal, is that i've heard the word 'dike' used in a derogatory fashion more often than i have heard the word pansy. typically directed toward female authority figures. for example, in junior high kids would call a strict teacher a bitch, but also a dyke. more recently, i've also seen Hillary Clinton referred to as a dyke. on the internet. a lot.

    pansy? maybe because the connection to homosexuality isn't as obvious? when i first became aware of the use of 'pansy' as an insult, i thought it just meant weak, like how a flower is easily trampled. only later found out that it was used as a slur against gay men. when i first became aware of the dyke, the meaning was clearly tied to implied lesbianism with a negative connotation.

    if i had to guess, i'd say dyke is worse but it doesn't really matter. both terms can be used a slurs and i'm not sure how productive it is to argue about which one is worse.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @stormy yes Stoot posted this some time back I love it!
    Posted 16 months ago by Phochai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Crack open another beer and hit the refresh key. This game has something for everybody!
    Posted 16 months ago by Danthis Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In addition to @stormy's link above, please check this out

    (and please don't be offended!)
    Posted 16 months ago by Tradescantia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think this is really what they meant by Deadpan Dike. But I could be wrong...
    Posted 16 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Can you feel it? It's coming....
    Posted 16 months ago by Chester Mcfester Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic, I think that maybe your later interpretation of "pansy" is geographical, or perhaps even generational (I don't know how old anyone is here).

    I, for one, grew up hearing it tossed around much more often than dyke.
    As a child, I never once heard someone being called a dyke. Once highschool hit though, there it was, all over the place.

    I think one of my reasons for disagreeing that dyke is a stronger insult than pansy is that I hear Pansy being directed at young boys. Very young. Under 10. I have never heard of anyone below teenager being called a dyke. Personally, I think that children have less of an ability to look at these insults objectively, and thus, it is more likely to harm a small boy being called a pansy than a teenaged or adult woman being called a dyke. Especially since I've seen so many young boys being called a pansy by their own parents. I've never heard a mother calling her 10 year old daughter a dyke.

    I can't say that one is more or less offensive than another, but I can definitely disagree with someone who said that dyke is universally more harmful. It may be more harmful in many people's cases, but that is pretty much irrelevant, as it would be unlikely that many people would experience both slurs in their lifetime, as they are primarily gendered words.
    Posted 16 months ago by Biohazard Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "and I'm amazed by the sheer amount of time, effort and vitriol that has been poured into this."

    I just hate to see people attacked on the forums, and as I was the one recently in these shoes I wanted to back up the OP as it made me feel much better when people did it for me, and even though I wasn't personally offended or believe the game should be censored, I wanted Clare to know that I respect that it did offend her.

    "The point is, just because someone feels something is personally offensive it doesn't mean it has to become a community wide discussion or debate or issue. There are a lot of things I am offended by, and I can play the game, or I can choose to not play it."

    Everyone has a right to post what they want on the forums, and if you don't want to participate you don't have to.  Likewise, if you wanted to start a thread about the things you are offended by, I wouldn't disrespect you by commenting on your thread that it shouldn't be an issue.
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ innie - that's HILARIOUS
    Posted 16 months ago by Chester Mcfester Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Laurali: Oh, I didn't mean you; you've been pretty respectful, considering how heated a lot of other people have gotten here, and how unwilling either side seems to be to come to a detente on this.
    Posted 16 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lol Innie!

    Mmmm if I only I could find a guy that looked like that!
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink