Topic

Thoughts on the Rook Fight

stun system - really good. there was some lag that made it difficult to tell when the orb was going over 8, but the animations were really, really good and the cooperative, collaborative nature of the orb use was also very good. simple coordination, sure, but getting it together enough so that the meter wouldn't go over 8 encouraged communication and made it feel like you were working with the other people, not just in parallel.

I also liked that it stunned the rook to delay it, instead of being an damage based attack .. which leads to ..

prime shrine, donate system - using the shrine to defeat the rook was good. doing this via donations was .. well, the fact that it was so clearly an economic drain hole kinda took me out of the game and into meta-game territory. that's probably going to be fine in the long run.

the thing i did not like at all after waking up this morning and thinking about this was the damage popups. the idea of zapping the bad thing and doing 'damage' to it seemed really out of place in the game, and it felt cheap. it isn't even out of an aversion to violence on my part. i play D&D and many other games where the core mechanic is dealing 'damage' to enemies. in the case of D&D i tend to describe really gruesome "Dead Alive" style deaths for monsters. i like playing these games.

it's just that by using the 'damage' trope, Glitch puts itself in the same category as those games for a moment, and fails rather dismally. it's like you're trying to do pseudo-raids in the style of World of Warcraft but without a truly compelling combat system.

donating to a shrine in order to zap the bad thing is just so indirect for something alluding to combat. there's you, and then the item you donate, and then the shrine, and then the attack [enabled by the priming] and by the end of it there are so many intermediaries between you and the rook that the whole 'battle' seems detached and awkward.

maybe the feeling should be more like building up an energy field akin to using sandbags to fight a flood or fire, rather than shooting arrows at a dragon, which is the current heritage.

lack of reviving ailing animals and plants - i really missed this. this increased the sense of overall danger and was a very unique way of 'doing battle'. it also felt like you were more involved in the conflict, since the injured butterflies would talk with you and you'd deal with them on a one to one basis. very direct feeling interaction. almost personal. it also got people moving around the street, rather than clustering awkwardly around a shrine.

client performance - abysmal, but that's a technical challenge i am sure the devs are aware of.

Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I plan to do everything in my power to stay as far away from rook fights as I can because I loathe killing anything or seeing anything die.

    I get upset when a tree tells me it has been poisoned and I can't heal it because someone is doing a quest that requires them to kill it :(

    My sole incentive to participate in Rook battles would be if I could run around rescuing the injured animals and plants while the battle was happening!

    And before people start accusing me of hypocricy - the only place I eat meat is here where the piggies don't have to suffer or die to give me meat. ;)

    I can handle war only if I can be a non-combat medic ;)
    Posted 16 months ago by Reni's Mum Subscriber! | Permalink
  • don't get me wrong, i think that glitch can use some threat as a way of raising the stakes and bringing people together .. but there are all kinds of threats and different ways of fighting them than the 'shoot arrows, deal damage' thing.

    if i wanted to shoot an arrow i'd also want to have a cool bow and quiver and do cool looking attacks in the heat of battle. not just click on a shrine and drop in some leftover stuff.

    the previous system, with the reviving, was actually kind of fun. starting from that base and adding the collaborative stun to hold back the attacks would be more engaging, since you can see the other players and what they are doing, taking action, read their intentions a bit through their movements.

    further, using the shrine to rebuild some kind of imagination based fortification might better fit than attack based zaps to. it might feel more in the spirit of the indirect donations that build up over time.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Agh, did I miss it?  Pffft.
    Posted 16 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Larky Lion, we're still testing and tweaking a few things so there will be more :)

    Striatic: the rooking of animals and trees still happens. It's just that most of the attacks during testing have been pretty low-intensity and so The Rook rarely has enough time to get attacks off. It did happen a few times yesterday and definitely will more in the future.

    And I get what you're saying about "damage" vs some other characterization. We'll continue to mull that over.
    Posted 16 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How about making the Rook more transparent as it gets "damaged"... as if you were collectively willing it away?
    Posted 16 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am convinced that rooks only come out when Ebil's asleep o_o I seem to have a natural talent for missing them each time lol   
    Posted 16 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic about donations building over time. i agree. this test i am done learning, not rushing to raise my xp and really have no reason to donate that is obvious to me. So after my visit to the rook museum i had imagined need of available donations built up in case of rook attack, so i had resumed donating on a hunch....
    Posted 16 months ago by coolbettycakes Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was confused when clicking on the shrine to donate in the rook fight and an emblem I knew I had was not available on the list to donate. Eventually I figured out that I could move it to my "main" inventory to get it to appear higher on the list and be usable. It might make sense to sort the items in the "select item to donate" window in order of effectiveness (or monetary value?).

    Running around reviving animals was super fun. I'd love to be able to specialize in that, especially if there was a greater xp reward for that kind of activity. (If such specialization is already available, please pardon my ignorance!)
    Posted 16 months ago by naitPee Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "And I get what you're saying about "damage" vs some other characterization. We'll continue to mull that over."

    this is what i would have instead, if it were up to me.

    there would be a bar at the top of the screen.

    [######++++++]

    one side, filled with [represented by # here] would be the "brute force and cynicism" meter, or some other rookish approximation of such.

    the other side, [represented by + here] would be the "intellect and romance" meter, or some other glitchish approximation of such.

    as the rook builds in power, unchallenged, the bar start to go like this ...

    [#########+++]

    but then we fight back! it goes like this ...

    [####++++++++]

    but we run out of stuff to donate! oh no!

    [#######+++++]

    so we call desperately for our friends to help us. we use a last gasp of donations to hold off the rook ...

    [#########+++]

    and then the cavalry arrives with a load of emblems!

    [#+++++++++++]

    and then the final push to exorcize the rooks from the street .. "the power of glitch compels you! the power of glitch compels you!"

    [++++++++++++]

    and then it is all over. sweet relief. maybe we get some loot, like a rook's feather.

    i like this because the battle is articulated using a single feedback element. it's also more like a "tug of war" than the barrage of arrows concept. it might also might make the threat more compelling in that you can see it growing if you do nothing. the dynamics seem like they might be more interesting, with people being able to fight a holding action until more coordinated resources arrive - but with a clock ticking.

    plus i mean everything else in this game has a progress bar, so why not the rook? it'd be the most dramatic progress bar in the game though, i think.

    anyway, i think that might work better.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • exorcism might be a good way to characterize the battle, actually.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX3wNfw3iYY 
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • oh - and then you could do cool stuff like, depending on the status of the struggle, who is ahead, swap in different musical cues.

    [######++++++] = straight up action music

    [##########++] = sad battle music

    [#+++++++++++] = triumphal battle music

    could also set up the music cues based on reversals of momentum, rather than static status of the battle.

    oh and finally you could recycle art assets from the current set-up by having the animated rook head [that currently replaces the magic rock] over on the left of the battle bar, and the emblem of the giant whose street shrine is being attacked on the right side of the battle bar.

    just have the giant emblem on the right look increasingly beat up if the bar is low, and start glowing brighter and brighter the closer to victory the players get.

    bonus, makes it immediately clear to the players what kind of emblems are needed to donate, even if the shrine is swarmed with people and you can't see what giant the shrine belong to.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like the Rook feather type prize. I was happy to have gotten in on 2 rook events. Lots of fun unfolding in all of this.
    Posted 16 months ago by Riverwalker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Love the tug-of-war idea, striatic.  You already said so yourself, but the progress bar really is one of the most consistent elements in Glitch's design — so why isn't it in the Rook fights?  It also sounds like that would give some extremely...legible feedback to players, which, given the chaos of these events, would be perfect. 
    Posted 16 months ago by Jannisary Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't participated in a rookfight, but from what I'm reading, it seems to me that plague may be an appropriate metaphor. That also raises the possibility of reconstructive work after the rook is defeated.
    Posted 16 months ago by Clumdalglitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Agh, missed it yet again.... Any chance we'd be able to know when it happens ahead of time?
    Posted 16 months ago by Eden Subscriber! | Permalink
  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFM0Fq2DXfg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFmmyhTsEzo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq6ongzPodM

    Vids of the three attacks last night, for those that missed it. (no sound)
    Posted 16 months ago by Nea Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I ALWAYS miss them...
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Quite simply, I need more feedback as to whether what I am contributing has any affect on defeating rook. I mean, I use my orb to stun...wait and then...hmmm...I dunno what. I prime the shrine, then donate tons, and...hmm...dunno what. Maybe i'll see my name up top by my pet rock, but it's usually when I donate 1 paper, and that's not very satisfying. I contribute 4 diamonds and...well nothing.

    I need more feedback. I'm greedy, perhaps, and need to know what % of the defeat I'm responsible for. If that's 0.5% great. If 95%, even better!

    Or should I just stay home and let ignorance==bliss take over? Why am I going to these things, other than novelty? I've heard novelty wears off.
    Posted 16 months ago by Joe Blow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The Rook thing has me confused, too.  I haven't been at a Rook fight yet and I think it would be exciting to be there.  But from a design standpoint, the Rook seems sorta un-Glitchish.  I'm not opposed to combat in the game, but... in GLitch it should be wackier.  I know the Rook is supposed to be the anti-Creativity but it still all seems kinda humorless for Glitch.  Maybe it's all a big joke I will get later..?
    Posted 16 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't want the Rook to be humorous. The game does need a dark element (and has it--have you seen some of the stories coming out of the trees/etc. and from the tower? Scary!) I guess that's one of the reasons I don't like the Rook head at the top of the screen with the damage meter. It looks kind of cartoony and comical, while the rest of the animation doesn't. 

    I like the way the Rook attacks are headed, but I would like more build up to an attack to allow for more time for people to gather and more of an atmosphere to develop itself. As mentioned before, it would be very helpful to have more of an obvious indicator how much of a contribution I am making to the battle. I know that it has been mentioned that Rook attacks in the future will cover larger areas at once, and I completely agree that this should happen. It shouldn't be localized to just one street, and it should take a good chunk of time and effort to fight off the Rook, with more challenge in reviving things afterwards. It's too easy now, but I know this is just to test the waters so that's fine (as long as it is made significantly more difficult later).
    Posted 16 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This last Rook attack about 1 hour before closing seemed much better to me. It was less confusing (less text flying around and the screen wasn't scrolling), and I was actually able to notice that people priming an orb were glowing (don't know if that was new or not). Also, I didn't experience any lag even though there were a ton of people there.
    Posted 16 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've still not encountered the rook, but certainly hope to some day!
    Posted 16 months ago by IxÆoN Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was at the last rook attack - I found the whole thing rather confusing.  After initiating a stun attack, it was not clear if there was a cooldown period afterward, but attempting to initiate another was not successful.  I was looking at the upper left of my screen for "squork" messages (my own name for the noise that often goes with "you can't do that now"), but I saw nothing.

    Still a way to go.
    Posted 16 months ago by jasbo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Jasbo: agreed, there still needs to be more feedback for us during an attack, but I think the changes done during this test have been an improvement.

    @IxAeon (sorry, don't know how you get your A and E squished together like that): Become a member of the Rook Alerts group, then have that group chat always active (at the top of the chat list, where you can monitor several different chat windows, even though you only have one of them open at the time). When red numbers appear next to that group, click on it right away to see if there is a Rook attack. If there is, the location will be mentioned. Teleport there right away, because the attacks don't last very long (only a couple minutes or so). There may be only one alert on this channel when it happens, because people are too busy dealing with the attack to post much, so even just one post on there might be meaningful. 
    Posted 16 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink