Topic

Ajaya Bliss and emergent cooperation

Summary: A new bonus system which rewards cooperation reinforces positive interactions between players .

Introduction: Ajaya Bliss is an special area in the mines that is filled with sparkly rocks. To enter Ajaya Bliss you need to find a hidden key and unlock a door or (I think) have someone teleport you inside. This area was often crowded in earlier tests  because sparkly rocks are more desirable than the other sorts.

Competitive mining: Ore was originally extracted on a first-come, first-served basis. People would either mine by themselves or (reluctantly) share a rock, grabbing as much ore as they could. Later tests introduced bonuses for "helping", but these bonuses were low - perhaps only an extra piece of ore, giving up to a 15% increase in efficiency but sacrificing the chance to mine more ore over a longer time. Players cooperated because they had to - social norms were the only mechanism to encourage sharing.

Newly-increased bonuses: This test introduced changes to the mining bonus system. My observations indicate that it is partially random and partially based on the order in which players have begun to mine. The first player to select a rock can "mine" it as before, but the second and each subsequent player are given the opportunity to help mine instead. The first miner receives the largest bonus, followed by the others in order in which they have begun to mine, but the first miner will become a "helper" once he or she finishes a mining sequence and starts again.

Observations: The new bonus system strongly favors cooperation. I have experienced bonuses of around thirty-five pieces of ore on top of the basic six or seven that can be mined per attempt, and I have heard reports of ninety or more bonus pieces. This means that it is much, much more efficient to work cooperatively - it is not only faster, but mining the bonus pieces of ore does not damage your tool or consume your energy. A new cooperative style of mining has emerged as a consequence of this.

Emergent cooperation: Miners in Ajaya Bliss have learned that large groups earn more ore than smaller ones. They form a sort of conga line of players, leaping around the playing area to find new rocks as they spawn. When they do, one player will spontaneously start to mine and others will join him or her. Sometimes two rocks spawn simultaneously and this pattern is disrupted, but players tend to join whichever rock has the most players. The extra miners consume the rock quickly, typically within a single mining attempt, and then the conga line starts again.

Conclusions: This emergent pattern is beautiful to watch. The players swirl around the playing area like leaves. A lot of sharing goes on, more than can be explained by the selfish desire to increase the number of helpers. By rewarding cooperation the bonus system has reinforced a positive dynamic that extends to other player interactions.

Posted 15 months ago by Tanga Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • I liked it. It was discussed heavily Monday in another thread, which apparently led the devs to make the above changes. I watched the co-operation for a while (I helped a couple of people get into the street first) and joined in while I had the energy. I mined a little for some quests, badges, and to work on Emblems, with the money objective pretty much dead last. Just wish the respawn times might have been a little shorter and the special spawns a touch more frequent.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @tanga: i don't know who you are, but your analysis is beautifully written and i want to be your friend.
    Posted 15 months ago by flask Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Seconded. This is great.
    Posted 15 months ago by That Kid Tyler Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That sounds like a lot of fun!!  Before the reset many people didn't like to "share" rocks, so I avoided it, but I'm pretty social and this game has all these people in it so I really wanted to mine with other people!  I only found a few others like me and we mined together and had fun!  This time around, I avoided mining because so many people were doing it!  I didn't want to make anyone angry that I dare attempt to "share" a rock!  I'm so glad there are bonuses when sharing now!!  I'm really looking forward to checking this out after the game re-opens.  Thanks for the thread!  :-D
    Posted 15 months ago by Reba Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for the write-up!
    I didn't know all these details, and it's really cool.
    Posted 15 months ago by shineyspikeything Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While not entirely responsible, flask is referring to this THREAD for some of the changes.

    I noticed quite a bit more "helping" going on too... In Northwest Passage for example there is a single sparkly that generates there and I see as many as 12 people at any given time on that map, which results in at least 3 of them suddenly mining together on that one rock at any moment.

    Even in Groddle Heights I saw many more conga lines of miners working here and there and everywhere... more together than competitively.

    Perhaps the change was for the best as it is evident, at least to me that there is a better perception of "help mine" now being helpful to everyone than its previous implementation.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is it just me, or do the bonuses seem way too high?
    Posted 15 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The current implementation of "help mine" seems to be working well.  Increasing the rock respawn rate across the board might result in mining becoming too easy when there's less of a crowd.  Making the respawn rate relative to the level of mining activity might work.  Or, would it work to have a powder that could be used to make rocks respawn more quickly?
    Posted 15 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • larky lion wrote: Is it just me, or do the bonuses seem way too high?
    I got a 66 chunk bonus yesterday afternoon, which I thought was both awesome and ludicrously high.

    If I were to recommend a change it would be to leave it as is, but after 5 helpers each additional person only adds one chunk. Also of note, once we all get to higher mining skills it will be more difficult to get those ridiculously high bonuses since people will be starting and finishing quite rapidly.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A couple of trips on a mining train (Choo Choo!) to Ajaya Bliss yesterday helped me to afford my beautiful house & more importantly made me meet a whack of new people & friends.

    It has been my best Glitch experience so far. Thanks to all I met (especially those who came by just to drop off food for everyone!).
    Posted 15 months ago by HerbertSherbert Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really like the concept of more help = more bonus. It is way more fun to mine with others and I appreciate the extra ore!
    Posted 15 months ago by Miel Subscriber! | Permalink
  • New bonuses were awesome!  It was my first time mining in Ajaya, but I noticed a lot more cooperation there compared to other areas.  Coolest things:

    - food and drink sharing!  Those cocktails were lifesavers!
    - people trading tool fixes for food, or just doing them for free
    - teleport groups going in and out of Ajaya.  Much more practical for bag-emptying!

    I can't wait until people start getting the TR skill. :)
    Posted 15 months ago by Jacaranda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Very eloquently put, Tanga! I agree that Ajaya Bliss has become a wonderful, beautiful thing. I hated mining before this test (boring), but now, even though I don't need the money right now, I've been spending alot of time in Ajaya just because it's so much fun. I even set my one teleport point there. I never would have imagined doing that a week ago...
    Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't know.  I'm all for Ajaya Bliss having a different sort of appeal than other places in the game (as I said in the other thread) but no amount of extra payout has changed how I feel about mining there with a lower level of skill.   I certainly approached it with an open mind, wanting to join in when there were lots of players there, but after being too slow (maybe the effect of lag) to get to a rock soon enough to get one or two actions in I gave up and left.   I did get 10 pieces with one action, and that made it feel better but still, it wasn't much fun and I felt like a clumsy person barging into (well I was there first) a group square dance.  When I get mining 3 or 4 I'll go back and try again.   I fear that no amount of extra payout is going to change how it feels if you aren't able to keep up with the others down there.    

    I know it can  look  nice to see everyone hovering and flying about looking for new rocks but how it feels for new players or low level players is a better indicator of how fun it is for them.   Playing should be fun for everyone.   If it has an aesthetic appeal to observers that is an extra bonus.
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm glad people like it! But: if people are really getting 66 bonus chunks and there aren't 11 people helping (!) then there might be a bug :)
    Posted 15 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Chiming in with an appreciation for the tweak to "help mine," and pointing out that I didn't even set foot in Ajaya Bliss. I did the bulk of my mining around the rest of Ilmenskie, and even operating that way I would pick up two or three other people who would flit around to all the rocks with me. The bonuses are obviously milder than when you can get eleven people going, but when I'm used to getting on average five or six chunks an action, three extra chunks each time is a big deal -- especially at low levels with no or limited cooking, when "more payout for each action" feels even more super-rewarding. 

    The tweak definitely makes mining feel cooperative and exciting and a lot more fun. I'm a realist and I feel like the ~excitement~ will level off as we keep playing and divide into the "serious" miners and those who were doing it more casually. But I was a decently serious miner pre-reset, and this may even have erased my previous feelings of "I'm earthshaking, just leave me to getting the chunks that I need and I'll be social later."
    Posted 15 months ago by Haiku Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There were at least 11 people helping when I got the 66 one Stoot. There were at least 15 of us in there. One fellow glitchen claimed to have gotten 91 off a rock a few minutes after that one.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The highest I saw mentioned was 91 rocks.

    Not that I like getting rich quick, but it seems a little crazy now .  

    I'm wondering what it will  be like when I am level 4.  I expect I won't get so many bonuses, as it will be trickier to get people starting at the right time, unless we get really coordinated.   On the other hand,  a level one miner accompanied by a number of level 3+4 miners will get utterly mental bonuses - assuming they can keep helping every time they finish.   And then... will the lower level players get significantly more than the higher level players?  
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @shexycorin: They can, but the results probably wouldn't be as good. A typical rock only contains 50 chunks, and a lvl 4 miner will get between 8 and 10 chunks per action. So if there are 5 miners they will each get one action (maybe 2 for a lucky guy) and that will be it. So the skill 1 miner (assuming he started first) would only get (1+2+3+4+5) 15 bonus chunks, 21 max. Whereas if you have 10 skill 1 miners all mine the same chunk the first miner would get (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10) 55 chunks. The more the merrier, as long as you can keep the corralled and working on one rock.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • before the reset I was getting 5-10 as a level4 miner, normally 7  -  but that's a fair point with the number of chunks  in a rock.... the huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge rocks may prove ridiculously beneficial with the right combination of high +low level miners. 
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I got the distinct impression that the bonus chunks are in addition to the total number number of chunks normally available in a rock, and limited only by the number of people who are able to start mining the rock before it disappears (although I am quite prepared to be told otherwise).

    Still, if only I hadn't bothered with mining 2...
    Posted 15 months ago by dr_loplop Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah wait, crap, let me cancel my mining III ;_;
    Posted 15 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't mind if it gets more normal with higher skills.  At the moment it feels like there's no point in doing anything else, because we (the miners) are all currant crazy. 

    We're going to turn into little albino mining moles if we're not careful
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I didn't like it, 30 to 40 Glitchen trying to mine the sparkly. Was something like you would find at the start of the sales. Very hard unless you were one who found the rock. Maybe when they have all bought their 50,000c houses, it might ease of a bit. One gang were all dressed the same.
    Posted 15 months ago by Miss Melody Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i found i got a good balance of nice bonuses (say 28)  and better than previously  -  3-6... sometimes I  only got 1.

    But that's the point.  not everyone gets amazing bonuses all the time -  you need to help out the person at the front of the rock, amnd sometimes you'll be the person nearer the start

    It was certainly better than before when Ajaya couldn't handle more than 4 or 5 miners at a time before it became pointless being here.   Now you can get a decent (or ridiculous) amount of sparkly for  much less energy. 

    Personally,I found it more enjoyable  - more people meant more chat and more cooperation
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But yes,  it will probably calm down and that's probably a good thing. :)
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really do think there should be a massive party there though... 200 glitchen all mining one rock with the right timing??    I make that  20,100 for the one in front. 

    *eyes glaze over*
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Some people believe Ajaya Bliss belongs to them personally.  Just because you are there with more than 2 people or even a mob of miners doesn't mean you rule the cave.  It's not right everybody jumps in and takes over a sparkly rock someone else is mining.  There really are enough rocks regenerating quick enough for everyone to enjoy mining.  Unfortunately mob rules and they take over everybody's sparkly, not fun, not even social just greedy.  I wish they would slow the rocks from regenerating for at least 10 or 15 minutes, or at least as long as it takes the herbs to grow in the community gardens.  If they had the sparkly instantly regenerate only the greedy mob would benefit, staking a claim to all the sparkly. That would be very bad, I don't think speeding up the rocks will ever happen,  but slowing them way down a very strong possibility, maybe an additional tax for having all the sparkly in one spot such as double the energy used to mine and no leveling up points.
    Posted 15 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The huge bonuses were rare: I only got around 60 chunks once or twice, and they do only happen when you are the first one to mine the rock and a large number of people are helping (more than 10). The reports of over 90 were also under similar circumstances. Most often, I would get around 10 bonus chunks if a few people were helping, and 20 if a large number were helping (more than 10 people). I don't think there is a bug, as the number of bonus rocks seemed consistent with the number of people and the time that I started mining.
    Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love the new mining setup and I still have no trouble finding sparkly rocks that don't get much traffic. I also love the insanity of Ajaya Bliss and I hope things don't change. For what it's worth, I mine a lot and everyone is welcome to join me at any rock in any location.

    I have had this oh-so apt song in my head for days while reading the forums:

    All through the day I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. 
    All through the night I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. 
    Now they're frightened of leaving it 
    Everyone's weaving it, 
    Coming on strong all the time, 
    All through the day I me mine. 

    I-me-me mine, I-me-me mine, 
    I-me-me mine, I-me-me mine. 

    All I can hear I me mine, I me mine, I me mine ... 
    Posted 15 months ago by Aleph Zero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd like to teach Glitchen to mine
    In perfect harmoneeeeeeeeeeeee
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I did not go to Ajaya for the simple reason that all of the other mining areas were crazy, so I knew Ajaya would be beyond insane.  The mob rules mentality was a little hard to swallow and I can't imagine how bad it will be for a new miner coming in a little later.  Right now, everyone is on a fairly level footing, but that won't be the case for long.  And some people just want to chill when they mine, without all the pressure of a gang.  For those who want to mob mine in Ajaya I wish you fun and great rewards.  But if you see someone plugging along by themselves in an out of the way street, I hope you will also respect their choice to not mine with 20 other people.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Personally I would like to see a lot more bonuses and rewards in the game for co-operative and philanthropic play.  The social aspect of this game is a strong part of its appeal, certainly for me and a lot of others I have spoken to.  Anything that encourages co-operation and generosity is a positive move in my view.  :)
    Posted 15 months ago by stripe/shrimp Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There's a good thread in the Ideas forum about trying to work out some sort of OK/NOT OK to help sign. It would be great if we didn't have to keep asking. Every solo miner I have asked to help so far has said yes. I often was told "of course!" 
    Posted 15 months ago by Aleph Zero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Actually, I can't imagine saying "no" to anyone that asked. That being said, I doubt that a group of miners would ask, and that's probably the one situation (being joined by a group) I wouldn't want if I was in a solo state of mind. It'll be interesting to see how the new miners experience this later on.
    Posted 15 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I'm glad people like it! But: if people are really getting 66 bonus chunks and there aren't 11 people helping (!) then there might be a bug :)"

    there were 11 people mining together when this happened. at least every time i saw it happen.

    i think the high bonuses are good, but the distribution could be better.

    the "first in" cap could be something like 50, with the chunks above the cap being pushed back to the next helper and so on ... or some comparable system.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • btw, people were certainly having *fun* in Ajaya Bliss this test.

    it wasn't entirely about the currants.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Striatic

    I took part in the multi mob mining in the bliss and its the first time i felt that cooperation was worthwhile and everyone seemed to be having a good time - it gave a real sense of community and got me a house!
    Posted 15 months ago by Loupin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love your write-up Tanga.

    I spent much of the last test day in Ajaya Bliss, blissfully mining away and eating raw eggs and meat. When people needed some food, I shared, when people needed a tinkertool, I lent, when people needed a lift into Ajaya, I obliged. I have never had so much fun in Glitch. I cannot imagine what other people seem to be upset about.

    I invited my friend who just started playing to come along with me to Ajaya where I would make him a wealthy Glitchen and that is what happened. Even with Mining I he had great success. If he could get in early on a rock, which you're bound to do every once in a while popcorning around, he would be most successful with so many others joining in while he was mining.

    The only negative about this system is that it discourages learning higher mining levels.

    I've made it to Mining III and my bonuses are a bit diminished, but I still take part in the mob mining and put in multiple swings on one rock for lower bonuses because I know that it will benefit the people with lower mining levels who may have started before me (giving them a double bonus). I had several instances of 66, 78, and yes, even 91 bonus rocks as a Mining II miner, mostly 6-28 as a Mining III miner, but it's still worth it.

    All-in-all, mob mining in Ajaya is more fun, more profitable, and arguably faster than mining alone somewhere else.  Though all Glitchen are entitled to their own opinion.
    Posted 15 months ago by Keymo Machine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like it a lot! 
    The first time I went in there I was mining away by myself instead of jumping into the fray but after a few minutes I realized what was happening and about the bonuses. So now I go in there and jump in with a group rather than go mine by myself.
    Once you get used to the frantic pace, it's actually a lot of fun and very rewarding! :D
    Posted 15 months ago by PittyPat is sad Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't been to Ajaya Bliss, but after reading this post I can't wait to check it out!
    Posted 15 months ago by Amy Pond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • but then sometimes people have their grumpypants on and complain about too much jumping or how over crowded it is:(
    Posted 15 months ago by Geeki Yogini Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What key do I need to get into Ajaya? I don't know because I never needed one, lmao.
    Posted 15 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @cerulean i can't remember, but you can just teleport there without the key!
    Posted 15 months ago by Geeki Yogini Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That was the thing, that's what I used to dooooo but now that I'm back at TP1 I need to get in to set my tele point or whatnot, lol. I'm not going to use any of my bajillion TP tokens because I am hoarding them for the day I will need all of them at once which is not likely to ever come. :p
    Posted 15 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • teal-white triangle.

    indeed, the ajaya community feels like a family, now more than ever.  great folks workin' them rocks...
    Posted 15 months ago by BeatFreq Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @cerulean i might be wrong, but the subscriptions are gonna be reset when the game starts for reals, which i think means the tokens will be refreshed (ie put back to max)
    Posted 15 months ago by Geeki Yogini Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yay thanks BeatFreq.

    And Geeki, we've already gone through the final reset, and even if we hadn't, tokens stay in tact because I paid good money for them. :p

    EDIT: GAH 3500 for the key in auctions?!! Is anyone willing to let me follow them into the great A-Bliss?
    Posted 15 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This is a very sweet analysis; thanks for posting! I am pretty shy so tend not to jump into a lot of cooperative enterprises in the game, but have found the new mining-helping bonuses very encouraging. Though I've never visited Ajaya I spent a big chunk of the last test wandering around in Ilmenski helping and being helped in small groups. It was nice! Glitchen are nice.
    Posted 15 months ago by Melismata Rookwood Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have not yet been to Ajaya Bliss, but I'm looking forward to going there.  It's not the place I'd go, however, if I wanted to mine alone.  I would go there in order to participate in a coordinated group activity.

    I played the game pretty much full-time during the last test, and I did a lot of mining in order to buy favor and learn new skills more quickly.  There where long stretches when I didn't want to interact with other players because I needed to able to handle RL interruptions. Most of the time I was able to find places where I could mine alone, but people who can play only during certain times may find this difficult to accomplish.

    Perhaps Glitch needs to have more private areas in order to make it clearer that the resources in public areas belong to everyone and give the best return when people work together in a coordinated fashion.  Perhaps there could be a mining area where people can stake a claim, file papers, and then mine alone to their heart's content. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
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