Topic

That's so ghetto! Bitches and gypsies discuss language, culture, and changing expectations.

To avoid derailing the Guidelines thread wrestling with a specific part of the Guidelines.  I thought we could move this discussion to its own thread.

When someone uses a word that you feel is a slur during a conversation that you are part of, how should you handle it and what do you expect of staff when you report it to them? 

If the slur is addressed to you by someone who intends it to be derogatory, then you've got a pretty clear case for the Report Abuse button. 

But what about the cases when someone isn't speaking to you or even directly about you specificly but uses an offensive term?  And continues to use it after you ask them to stop?

When someone describes something as "that's so ghetto".  When someone says "that bitch had it coming".  When someone says "I'm going to be a gypsy on Halloween".  When someone says "that's so geh".  What can we as a community do to help make folks comfortable?

Who is responsible for which parts of the strategy to handle a situation like this? 

Long ago and far away, one of my elderly relatives continued to refer to African-Americans as "colored" long after general society had begun to use the term "black". She was using what had been respectful terminology, but the world changed around her, and she innocently thought she was being polite, even as people around her cringed. 

What do you do in that situation?  What if the polite term you (and most of the rest of society) are currently using is pointed out to you as a slur by a member of the target group?  Do you become someone who leads the education and change?  Do you bite your tongue?  Or do you defend the current, non-hateful use of the word?

Posted 14 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Two words:
    Shun idiots.
    Posted 14 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think you missed the original post, Crashtestpilot :)
    Posted 14 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Blink dramatically. When they ask, "Was it something I said?" answer, "Yes."

    On a more serious note, I feel that it's not my responsibility to police someone else's language--unless what they're saying is truly detrimental and obviously reportable--or to educate them on what terms I find acceptable and unacceptable. If there's opportunity for discussion, if the offensive term pops up in the middle of friendly discussion, great, but I imagine this wasn't the scenario you were considering. My responsibility is to my own words and actions. Let go of the little things, walk away from the big ones.

    Let grey areas be grey areas, handled on a case by case basis, hopefully respectfully by all sides. I believe the guidelines are fairly vague for a reason. We're expected to use our best judgment. I'm hopeful that it'll be good enough. 

    I know you're looking for a deeper discussion, but... if I think about the questions in a real world context, my answer remains the same. If I overhear someone at the table next to me at my favorite restaurant using language that I find offensive, it's not my job to go inform the person that they're behaving badly; I can only choose whether to report it to the owners if it's seriously egregious, ignore it if it's only mildly offensive or leave if it's something that bothers me personally. If it's my friend being the jerk, sure, I can slap 'em upside the head, but imposing my opinion on someone I don't know... well... that's just as bad, I'm sure, as whatever they were saying in the first place, in my opinion, if not worse.

    TLDR: if it wasn't ill-intentioned, let it go or walk away.
    Posted 14 months ago by Lelly Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I probably wouldn't point it out to my grandmother, who grew up in a different time and is really much too old to be obligated to give a shit about anyone's feelings. I wouldn't point it out to the girl in one of my classes who says she's dressing up as a Native American for Halloween, who's just an acquaintance and would be more likely to be alienated than actually educated about why that's weird and racist.

    However, in a group of people that I interact with on a daily basis - such as the Glitch community - I would definitely point it out to someone that it's not cool to call someone a "slut," not okay to exclaim "I totally got gypped!" et cetera. I would attempt to explain the reasons why, if the offender seemed open to it - otherwise, it's probably time to report, and I would expect Glitch staff members to take it seriously.

    I think the real problem here is how to deal with words that have been "taken back" by parts of a minority group. Do we ban the words "queer" or "fag" even when they're being used by actual LGBT people just joking around with each other? Many LGBT people may be offended by that, even within their own group, but many others might claim they have the right to say it. I honestly don't know what's right in cases like this. The entire population of a minority group is not going to agree on what terms are okay in what contexts, and that's going to be more difficult to handle than some random middle-class white person saying "that's ghetto."
    Posted 14 months ago by Effigy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I always have and always will stand up to say, "That's not cool." I don't have the inherent privilege some do, of just ignoring it and assuming it's meant in another way. I'm way too othered, and since I'm part of an invisible* minority, I will stand up and defend all Others, as well.

    *Invisible in this case meaning, we are often ignored and overlooked, but everyone seems to have an opinion on us based on media stereotypes and no actual facts or knowledge.
    Posted 14 months ago by Jarhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Effigy I agree with your last point, about words that have been "taken back" an awful lot. Since this is already a discussion that can be taken personally, I'll give my personal example. I'm one of those people who identifies as LGBT, and with my best friend, there can be a lot of us calling ourselves "huge queers." We mean it with a positive connotation, and I would say it's even a point of pride. If she tells me I'm being a "good fag" I take it as a rather strong compliment because I know that, from her, it is a commendation. 

    But even while I feel really comfortable talking that way with her, it's because she's my best friend and we understand each other's meaning. I'm still rational enough that I can tell some of the things we say to each other, taken somewhat out of context, would probably sound highly offensive to other LGBT people.

    And that's the thing. I know that while I think it's okay, I can acknowledge that it's speech that will make some people uncomfortable, so I generally try not to talk that way around people I don't know as well as her. I think it's any person's right to talk about themselves in any manner they feel comfortable. But I also think it's common courtesy to be respectful and cut that out around individuals who will take offense. 

    I may be doing "taking back" words "wrong" but it works for me. I think the further problem is even when you're willing to censor yourself for other people's sensibilities, deciding when you do that or identifying when someone is made uncomfortable. Is it okay to say possibly-offensive things if the people around you won't speak up and admit that they're bothered?
    Posted 14 months ago by Haiku Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Good on you, Jarhaven.

    I tend to think the same; not meaning any harm doesn't mean you're not doing any harm.  What sort of reaction is appropriate depends on the context, but I don't think it's ever inappropriate to voice your mind about it.  In fact, I think the main reason people don't is because they're afraid of the reaction they'll get (which is really a whole other can of worms).

    @Effigy - I think you're missing a distinction between prescription ("X, Y, and Z are banned") and reaction.  It would be counter-productive for all the reasons you give (and more) to attempt to create a prohibited list – but that's not what's being proposed.  This doesn't mean that we, as individuals, can't recognise the difference between different uses of words, and react to the situations as and when they occur.
    Posted 14 months ago by matt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Stoot: Yeah. Idiots was the wrong word.
    I should have said clueless *****************ers.
    But that would have been *****, **********, and vaguely rood. :)
    ~CTP
    Posted 14 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • First off, I love that we have these kinds of conversations here. And I love that there are tons of outspoken, passionate people here who feel the same way I do, i.e. that language can without doubt be a tool of oppression or harm. It's not something I expected to find here in the cute little pig-nibbling game, and I'm continually blown away by how much I adore my Glitch community.

    In practice I think I fall somewhere between Lelly and Effigy. In passing conversation out on the street or in Global, if it wasn't said with malice, I'll let it go. Those situations are too confusing to have the kind of compassionate, authentic conversation I'd want to have. If it showed up in one of my groups, one of my more intimate chat channels, or here on the forums (and I wasn't feeling exhausted), I would definitely try to initiate conversation and provide some context someone might not have for why a word is harmful ("gypsy" and "gypped" seem especially unrecognized in the US). 

    As for the last part of your question, I hope I'll always be open to being called out - gently or not so gently - if I'm using language that is hurtful to someone else. It does get tricky - there has been a huge kerfluffle going on for ages in the trans blogosphere where some cisgendered people feel really hurt and marginalized by the use of the word "cisgender." And sometimes White folks are uncomfortable with even being called White. I have sympathy for their discomfort, but in those cases I'm generally not going to back away from language that names privilege just because (in my interpretation) people are uncomfortable with having their privilege named. Complicated!
    Posted 14 months ago by Meridian Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Effigy - "However, in a group of people that I interact with on a daily basis - such as the Glitch community - I would definitely point it out..." The trouble, for me, is that I see a distinction between the individuals and the community, especially on a game online where the membership is likely to see a fair amount of turnover and the people I'm playing with one day are not likely to be the same ones I'm playing with the next. If there's room for a conversation, sure, such discussions will definitely promote a healthy community, but if there's not... well, I'm not convinced that reporting everything that I personally find ignorant and offensive will foster a better community.

    @Jarhaven - Having the ability to remove oneself from another's bad behavior isn't necessarily about inherent privilege. I've got a few decades' worth of unkind and uncouth words in my bags that have been slung at me by those who meant to harm and by those who just didn't know any better. Stepping away has been my best method of dealing with such negativity when a civil conversation did not seem to be an option. If a dialog can be started on respectful terms, sure, that's the best choice, but if I'm too angry or the situation is too awkward... yeah, I'd rather just leave it because it helps me stay sane and it keeps my anger and indignation out of the community.

    @Haiku - "Is it okay to say possibly-offensive things if the people around you won't speak up and admit that they're bothered?" Err on the side of respectful behavior. If you know you're walking a line, do it in private IMs. If you let something slip which you think might've offended someone, apologize even if no one calls you on it. You seem to have the right attitude already, aware of the fact that some of your language isn't appropriate for all audiences. I'm the same way. I'll keep my crude language (I really do like to swear up a storm) to IM conversations with people who I know are comfortable with my four-letter lexicon and hope that others will have the same common courtesy and self-awareness.

    @Meridian - You're absolutely right; context matters. Very well said!
    Posted 14 months ago by Lelly Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One of the freedoms that modern people enjoy is Freedom of Association.  Namely, you can live in the community that you choose to live in.  This cuts both ways.  There is value sometimes in confronting people whose ideas or expressions offend you.  But they have the same right to freedom of association that you do.  We can't force other people to change, nor should we be able to do so.  That does not mean we can't attempt to raise the consciousness of those we find ourselves around by calling them on things.  But it does mean that ultimately, it is our responsibility if they won't change, to walk away.
    Posted 14 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And sometimes White folks are uncomfortable with even being called White. I have sympathy for their discomfort, but in those cases I'm generally not going to back away from language that names privilege just because (in my interpretation) people are uncomfortable with having their privilege named.

    @Meridian: Hah! I think that's exactly it.

    But it does mean that ultimately, it is our responsibility if they won't change, to walk away.

    @Parrow Gnolle: But... um... for many of the disprivileged -- we can't effectively walk away, even if we remove ourselves from the conversation. We can't escape. We can't ignore it, because the system that demeans us and others us is always there, and practically no space is close to being safe unless there is a real effort to make it that way. I understand what Lelly said about leaving conversations because engaging in dialogue is just too taxing too often; I do that myself because I don't have the energy trying to explain things to people, most of whom don't want to change anyway. Self-care is our responsibility. But please keep in mind that the overarching structure that keeps things so unjust is inescapable for many of us -- I certainly cannot choose the community I live in, I cannot choose to interact only with people who aren't racists or bigots -- and so telling someone who's been harmed by another person's privilege to just "ignore" and "walk away" isn't a necessarily helpful response. 

    It's not really fair to tell the marginalized "everyone has the same freedom" because so often the claim of people to freedom of expression, of association, of speech translates into people claiming the right to hurt the marginalized and the disprivileged in their actions and speech. I mean, it's not just a matter of using words here to simply express ideas without consequence or harm. Words cut. There are words that, no matter how good the intention behind them, will invariably be damaging coming from certain groups. And in case someone disprivileged is hurt by those words, the burden shouldn't be solely on them to fix things, or Do The Right Thing, or be quiet to keep the peace, or honor the "freedom" of the person who said the hurtful thing when said "freedom" so clearly infringes on that of others. It might as well be reinforcing something that goes, "I have the freedom to continue to deny you your own." 

    --

    And, in general:

    On calling out... It's really hard to do. People shouldn't expect it or consider it an obligation of those who are already disprivileged to begin with. I personally am really hesitant to call people out because I've been burned too often by people who'll even double or triple the wrong by defending their awful behavior. 

    So on Glitch, generally I don't say anything because when things come up they're usually not in an appropriate situation for long talks about privilege. But I am very grateful to and appreciative of the people, like Jarhaven, who do.
    Posted 14 months ago by miir Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am all in favor of being polite, and even sensitive, however, the PC trend and especially the antagonistic enforcement of it has gotten completely out of hand. 

    I'm not as old as your grandmother, but within my lifetime it had been polite to refer to "colored people", and now it is not.  However, "persons of color" is now the preferred term by many people.  I refuse to acknowledge a difference between the two phrases.  These forums are the first time I was introduced to the term QUILTBAG.  I promise you I will howl loudly with laughter in the face of the first person who refers to someone with that ridiculous term in a conversation with me, and I will never agree to speak it.  How about PONSGIes (Persons Of Non-Sanctioned Gender Identities), instead; oh, that sounds too much like pansies, which would be rude, I suppose.

    In all seriousness, if someone is bullying or harassing someone due to beliefs, ethnicity, gender roles, or other such factors of social identity, call them on it, and report them if they persist.  If someone uses a neutral term like "black" while you prefer "of African decent," learn to live and let live.  If someone says "I've moved five times in a year, so I feel like a gypsy," realize that is a common use of the term that has lost all connection to ethnicity.  And in general get over your bad self and don't try to nanny the world.
    Posted 14 months ago by KhaKhonsu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As I see it:This is the internet. The human language [english as a specific example] is full of context that can be either extremely blatant, or otherwise greyer than the fuzz from a dead tv channel. Being that we all, as a community, are on the internet, things will be skewed in their meaning and thus, misunderstandings will arise. We can fight it, but do we really want to go on that seemingly unreasonable battle?Personally. I have a thick skin. I'm not going to go waah'ing when someone says something I disagree with.  I accept it, bring out a counter point, or I move on. Usually two out of three of those things happen. Sometimes all three. 

    However, as much as I can understand having a rich community, and having a wide variety of ethnicity and culture, it is up to everyone's part to either take it or leave it. I curse like a sailor. When someone curses, I don't care. But there is a line that I draw. Now, not everyone has as deep a line as I, especially when it comes to their culture, or ethnicity. But it is on their part to be a bleeding heart over something trivial, or minor. Opinions are like noses, everyone has them.  We just need to learn when and how to tuck those opinions away to keep from a hostile environment for all. 
    Like others have said, I would happily call someone out if what they say/do is offensive to the people around me. I don't like using a report button for something like that, but if it comes to it, then I will. 
    Posted 14 months ago by Deschutes Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Meheret- "Gypsy" isn't as separate from ethnicity as it might seem from the outside if you've ever been called that in hatred, or had to deal endlessly with weird, flaky stereotypes (I'm Romani, so guess how many times I've moved this year? Zero; also, I'm not gonna read anybody's palms), or those who lump everybody who vaguely resembles their idea of a "gypsy" into one category, nevermind the wide cultural and ethnic gulfs that separate many of these groups. It seems no different to me than referring to every Latin American you meet as "Mexican". I think having the idea that it's "lost all connection to ethnicity" is an easy conclusion to come to from the outside, though reality from the inside is much less clear-cut, and often tells the opposite tale. 
    I've had people, white people, tell me that they're not offended by the term "gypsy", and because they aren't, I shouldn't be either; that's a pretty bizarre stance to take when the offending language isn't anything that even applies to them. How would people like it if a white person determined that the n-word didn't offend them, so it was okay to say to whomever, or that saying "I've been working like a s**c" was okay because of the "context"? It's an especially strange tack to take when there aren't many truly offensive words (that I know of, at least) to describe white people- most of those terms are relics of 70s exploitation movies, and elicit giggles rather than offense. Which is why I think it's peculiar that white people get to tell me what to or not to get offended by- how many times do they have to deal with racism, marginalization, and discrimination? I'm a vocal member of a very discriminated-against minority group in the Midwest who gets a fair amount of shit for being born, essentially, with the very word that has "lost all connection to ethnicity". Deciding whether or not it's no longer objectionable perhaps should be left up to those it has any bearing on.
    Posted 14 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Meheret - what you're describing was a large part of my experience in the UK. People - entirely normal, friendly people - would use a term with entirely benign intention, basically because it's part of the vernacular. It's generally accepted by the majority that uses it, who are (essentially) ignorant of its effect on the people it describes.  The effect was to exclude and alienate those people; usually unintentionally, but also undeniably.

    You say "get over yourself," but that cuts both ways.  Words you think of as without context or connotation (and use in that sense) are the same words used in hate by others. Reconsidering your phrasing if that's pointed out to you is the adult and responsible thing to do. Really, if you meant no harm in saying it, where's the harm in changing? Yes, it's uncomfortable to be told you're part of the problem, but if you have good intentions, and respect for your neighbors, surely that's your chance to improve things, right?
    Posted 14 months ago by matt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What I'm saying is that the particular terms used frequently have very little to do with whether the speaker is being offensive or not, so trying to outlaw particular language is usually pointless.  Because my skin is the wrong color, I cannot refer to certain of my friends as "my nigga" without offense, but they can use that with each other and get a positive reaction.  I have a number of older female relatives who have perfected the art of saying "my dear ladies" in such a tone as to let those people know that they are lower than the dirt stuck under their toenails (I envy that skill).  I've traveled enough and been called "gringita" enough to usually tell the difference when it is descriptive or derogatory.  Words that are acceptable or even preferred change enough that I eventually decided to give up keeping a scorecard.  One day in college one of the people in my dorm replaced all of the "demeaning" Ladies signs with "Wymyn."  Give me a break!  Getting all up in someone's face if they use a particular word in a context with neutral tone actually does a lot of harm, even if the word has been used by other people as an insult.  You are not educating anyone about anything; you simply come across as aggressive and intolerant, the exact opposite of what I expect you want.
    Posted 14 months ago by KhaKhonsu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mereret, your position is referred to as an argument from privilege. Please consider reading this (admittedly long, but informative) post on the matter. 
    Posted 14 months ago by Mama Crass Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I complete disagree with Lelly, as, as of-quoted on the internet, intent isn't fucking magical.

    Just because you didn't intend to offend anyone, doesn't mean that person over there didn't feel like someone has slapped them in the face.

    As as someone who hasn't been worn down by the self-proclaimed progressives uttering thoughtless things, (Pro-tip: Claiming you're not racist/homophobic/misogynistic doesn't make that thing you just said any less bigoted) I think it's my duty to call people out, (as diplomatically or not as I am able to at that moment.  See also the Tone Argument) even when, especially when it doesn't affect me.

    The main point to not using slurs and hateful speech, to create a place where ALL people feel welcome, and even though you didn't know that it was a a bad word it doesn't stop someone wondering whether it's worth hanging out here.  Surely it better to know that you're hurting someone, and surely the tiny little effort it takes to use another word is worth it not to hurt someone else.
    Posted 14 months ago by Ama Gafr Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While the main rule is being trying to be sensible about what you say (and how you react to what other people say) you can't please everyone all of the time. Dressing up as a native american? Using scripture as sexual metaphor? Referring to the greek pantheon by their roman names? Seems there's not much you can do without inadvertently offending someone online.

     In my view, culture and language are tools for me to use, subvert and enjoy. If you're confused enough to think that 'niggardly' is in any way an offensive word, should I have to pander to your ignorance? 

     But that's very different to the  sort of thing that has been reported to have occurred in Glitch - people standing around hurling abuse directly at people. Isn't that more the sort of thing the new guidelines guard against?
    Posted 14 months ago by xLIFEx Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Mereret: QUILTBAG is generally used to refer to /groups/ of people rather than an individual, since somebody who is somehow all of the things those letters represent would probably just be Queer.
    Posted 14 months ago by xLIFEx Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The use of a word as a negative thing allows people's opinion of the subject to be swayed.
    People use gay as a negative, therefore people are more likely to think that being gay is negative. 

    some don't seem to think this is important enough to call people on, or to be called out on. I know I get crap for having a 'thin skin' a lot on this topic. People on the outside of minorities really don't seem to be able to get a clear picture of what it's like for those in the minority group. 

    We can say, let people's speech patterns be all they want. But I dissagree. Not when we could have long lasting detrimental effects about people's acceptance in the community.

    I'm not saying we need to take drastic measures or anything. just we need to be careful that we are not going to far in the other direction. yes there is a certain amount things we can't control about other's feelings, speech patterns etc. But turning a blind eye to things that are detrimental to the community's health is in nobody's best interest. 
    And I'm not saying you need to beat anyone over the head about it either, just mention it. Sometimes people just don't realize they're being offensive.... and when it doesn't work, THEN decide if it is disruptive, threatening, or vulgar enough to report or leave be.
    Posted 14 months ago by ardentmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • for the record, I think all labels are cheap and flimsy, and woe betide they who define themselves by them, even when they are used with pride or denigration.  I will not, however, generally engage in conversation regarding either approach to labels, in a serious manner, because too many people are too fucking hopeless about it.

    my RL friends are honestly too cool to be bothered by these things.  on the internet, I will try and smooth things over between parties so as to minimize difficulties, because I realize time is limited, and trust is hard to come by out here.  A Glitch friend was tempbanned awhile back for "taking back" a slur, btw, so... don't push that button.  The rule of the land definitely leans towards the pussarrific round here (no offense, kitties)!  I suppose it has to be, though.  There are simply too many people getting butthurt all the damn time.  Come to think, I guess butthurt is pretty obviously derogatory.  That's a genuine my bad.

    I expect my Glitch friends to behave with a certain pragmatism -- not because it is Right or because I really mind, but because I aim to never waste two seconds of time on this subject (at least wrt Glitch) ever again.  This is not Sociolinguistic Revolution: The Game.  I would never ask you to change, but I would probably keep playing without you.  If you get called out, "man" up, apologize, and come whine about it on Uncensored Chat.  That's what we're here for. ;)
    Posted 14 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sometimes, we're just not paying attention.

    Former President George W. Bush once ribbed a reporter for wearing sunglasses at a press opportunity, pointing out that it was overcast. It turned out the reporter suffers from macular degeneration and is legally blind.

    Singer Andrea Bocelli was also criticized for 'squinting' - and, again, the speaker said they were ignorant of Bocelli's lack of eyesight.

    On the other hand, you have cases like Rush Limbaugh mocking Chinese speech (in response to the story about Sasha Obama learning Chinese and speaking, though only short pleasantries, with visiting Chinese President Hu Jintao); or Rosie O'Donnell doing something similar and excusing it as improv. So do we assume both Limbaugh and O'Donnell are equally bigoted/ignorant/offensive? Do we cut one person slack, and not the other?

    Tough question, especially for those who speak Chinese. (I found it offensive because it was a schoolyard taunt from decades ago.)

    The world is changing: it's getting bigger, and more crowded. I think there's some room for allowances, but we're supposed to be better and smarter than this. There's no excuse for us to be as ignorant as we are, to repeat the mistakes made in the past over race with new peoples and genders.

    As actor Edward James Olmos said at a United Nations panel on human rights, there is only one race, and that is the human race.

    So say we all.
    Posted 14 months ago by TK-855 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, thanks for reducing years of discrimination to just being "butthurt" about it.
    Posted 14 months ago by miir Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Miir: Is that addressed to me, or someone else?

    A case in point where you meant one thing, and it's being read differently by someone else.
    Posted 14 months ago by TK-855 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think you grow a spine, slap on some thick skin and get over it. 
    Posted 14 months ago by fishFUNK Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Fascinating discussion. I'm not even going to jump in with much except to discuss the idea of the discussion. Because it's important one. Internet communities grow in both and organic, free flowing way and in a forced, rapid paced fashion. Social manners and ethics and whatever you want to call them are rapidly shifting. 

    One thing that I love about Glitch is that is trying to (1) give freedom of expression of play, (2) be highly social, (3) be mature/adult, (4) contain a lot of humor and (5) be friendly and welcoming and caring. This is a rare mix on the internet. How we deal with each other socially will be a huge part of that.

    I do ask ONE thing. If you do feel the need to call someone out on their language/behavior and engage them, think about doing it via IM. 
    Posted 14 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't mind calling people out in the local chat.  I just say, "Just as you're entitled to say _____ , I'm entitled to tell you that it bothers me."  The first time it happened, someone labelled another player a "wigger" because of their taste in music.  When someone asked what it meant they wrote it out in full, and didn't see why that might bother me.  I speak up, and if I do it publicly that might help others feel more comfortable saying, "Yeah, that bothered me too", or not.  Either way, if you're going to use that kind of language publicly you have to accept the public reaction.  I don't think there's any need to IM someone over it, as long as interactions are respectful, kind and honest there's no ned to make them private!
    Posted 14 months ago by Ratatatat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • + a bajillion @ miir's post from 10 hours ago

    You really explained it well. I just don't understand how people can keep insisting that it's not reasonable somehow to alter their viewpoint and behaviors when those behaviors are hurtful to others. A long time ago I didn't think I could possibly be a racist, but I did hold some racist viewpoints, and found myself saying that certain people were "over-sensitive" and should "just get over it". Then someone on the internet explained privilege and the little light bulb appeared over my head. Yeah for a while I felt bad and was kind of defensive about it, but then I just got over myself and proceeded to act in a kinder and better informed manner.
    Posted 14 months ago by crowdedsky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @TK-855: Not at all -- it was in response to the post above yours! Sorry, didn't think to refresh before I posted, and I had the window open for a while.
    Posted 14 months ago by miir Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You have to remember that we have people from many countries who speak English as their 2nd (or 3rd, etc.) language and they may be taught these words in their  English class and not be aware that they are offensive and derogatory. It's completely different than when talking to native English-speakers. 

    Just to give you an example, when I was learning English at school I was taught that the proper English terms for certain ethnic/racial backgrounds were "gypsy" and "negro". I didn't know any alternatives for many years until I moved to England and had to re-learn the language from native speakers. There were other words too that were not specifically racially or ethnically derogatory that got me embarrassed on many occasions. In the past I've had people tell me that I'm racist because I used a certain word, it was a word taught to me by my English teacher and I didn't know it was not acceptable.

    So before you judge anyone's language, consider that they might not be native speakers and not be aware of their mistake.
    Posted 14 months ago by Fussycat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Miir: Thanks for clearing that up!
    Posted 14 months ago by TK-855 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • someone said earlier "TLDR: if it wasn't ill-intentioned, let it go or walk away."

    i think that's kind of ridiculous. if the words were well-intentioned, when informed of how their words were interpreted, reframing your statement in a more respectful way kinda makes sense .. whereas railing about 'censorship' or 'PC police' kinda makes no sense whatsoever.

    if you want to disrespect someone, use the disrespectful language and refuse to retract it no matter what you learn about its meaning. if you want to respect someone, think about what your words mean and use them meaningfully.

    i remember saying "that's so gay!" all the time with my friends in junior highschool. at some point a parent pointed out that this was rather disrespectful language to be using so casually, to which some of the kids responded that the 'intent' wasn't to insult anything other than whatever petty annoyance we were maligning.

    of course, within a couple months the advice had processed and everybody just used other terms to express annoyance. subsequently, i never thought the initial, childish, ignorant use of "that's so gay" was the biggest problem, so much as arguing in favour of continue to use it entirely out of privilege and ego. fortunately we were all mature enough [barely?] to grow out of using that insidious language, even if we weren't mature enough to admit the problem when first confronted.
    Posted 14 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Re: the "just get over it" camp.  If the only effect of the kinds of speech being discussed here were hurt feelings, that might be a useful response (although I personally would prefer to err on the side of kindness, but we don't all have the same priorities).  But there is a TON of research that these little slights don't just affect the people who feel a reaction to them.  They add up to influence unconscious cognitive structures (schemas) that have VERY REAL effects in the world.

    For example, with regard to gender, when asked to think of a professor, we (men and women--this isn't a "bad men" thing, this is something HUMANS do) tend to think of a man.  Because of that there is a tendency for women to have to provide more proof that they are good (e.g. when on the job market, when going for promotion) than men do.  One study that looked at this sent out identical CVs (academic resumes) to psychology departments all over the country (the US).  Half had a "female" name attached, half had a "male" one.  The departments were asked to evaluate whether the person would be eligible for tenure at their institution.  73% of the men were, only 45% of the women.  I would take it that none of these departments would have considered that they were biased against women.  I have to reason to think that they weren't trying to be fair.  But they weren't.

    This kind of finding has been demonstrated over and over again.  When orchestras change to blind auditioning (where they can't see the person auditioning), the percentage of women who pass increases significantly.  When a study on resumes (sent in response to job ads) that used stereotypically African American names (Lakisha and Jamal), the perceived whites got 50% more call backs (for interviews) regardless of the industry or occupation.  In higher status jobs it was even more pronounced.

    The only way this sort of disparity goes away is when we all decide that it's important enough to think about and try to guard against.  Our perception of our lack of bias in not enough ("Oh, I would never react to someone's name, I would look at their qualifications")--we are NOTORIOUSLY bad at that.  Hey, psychologists study the mind for a living and they fall prey to this.  We have to admit that our unconscious connections between ideas (that is, our unconscious stereotypes) affect our decisions, despite how we think we make decisions, and we need to be on guard against feeding those stereotypes.  

    A fun (disturbing) little test that tries to develop this point: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/  Here's a story on the idea: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A27067-2005Jan21?language=printer
    If you are interested in the research, do some searches on "Implicit bias."
    Posted 14 months ago by noqualia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My daughter is signed up on Glitch, and her player name is GypsyRose.  The reason that her name is GypsyRose is that when she was born I wanted to name her Gypsy Rose.  The reason that I wanted to name her Gypsy Rose is because I was young, crazy and into weird stuff.  (I did not end up naming her that, btw)

    Please view this link, and you may understand what I'm talking about.  

    The woman who used this name was a part of American pop culture history.  Not every person who uses this word can be called a bigot.  In the case of my daughter, she is giving a nod to the name that she almost had in real life.  It has nothing to do with race at all.  It's a reference to a burlesque performer from the past.
    Posted 14 months ago by Poppy of Detwoit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It has taken me a while to figure out how to respond to this and while I think that a lot of you make some realy good points, some of you seem to be ....big whiners. (hopefully no babies have been offended)

    Words are only powerful if you choose to make them powerful. You can only be hurt by others if you allow yourself to be. ( I am not refering to situaions where people are being intentionaly attacked) Why would anyone choose to be offended by comments that were not spoken with malice in a conversation that thet were not even part of? Any "descriptive" word a person might use could potentialy be offensive to someone...should we all stop speaking. People need to lighten up.

    Mean people suck.In a world where we all have the right to be free and be ourselves, that includes the jerks. When deciding if you have been offended, the very first thing you should consider is the INTENT. You are not a victim unless some one has intended to victimize you. Unless ofcoarse, you enjoy victimizing yourself. Poor me syndrom perhaps?You may be a little uncomfortable, a bit put off, even a little hurt. Couldn't you just hug your emo-bear and relax a little?

    If you are that easily offended...well I guess you should put yourself in a situation where others can't trample your delicate sesibilitiess. If someone is verbally or physicaly agressive to me, I will defend myself. If I witness a verbal/physical attack on someone else, I will assist them however I can...because that's how I roll. ( no offence to rollers)

    I will do my best not to be rude or offensive to those around me because I try to be a courtious person. I would not want to ever make anyone feel badly about themselves. I do not use the term "dago" in front of my 82 yr old Italian MIL and I do not club baby seals in front of animal activists. Hard as I try, somtimes I may fail. I may be in a room with a hyper sensitive person who thinks my indian costume is weird and rasist. (sorry 'bout that)
    Posted 14 months ago by megan76 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Poppy: Excellent point.

    It reminds me of a programmer friend who was working on a company's genealogy program, and they asked staffers to contribute names for examples and illustrations. So my friend turned in the name, 'Major,' to which someone replied, "That's not a REAL name!'

    But, in fact, it was, common to a specific region and time. It wound up in an illustration. (And, of course, we have Major Garrett, the newscaster.)
    Posted 14 months ago by TK-855 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Megan76, Mereret, fishFUNK, and others of the "lighten up & get over it" perspective: These comments come across as, "My desire to be disrespectful & say whatever I want is more important than other people's desire to be treated as human." This is a textbook example of entitlement. If this is not your intent, not how you see yourself, or not who you want to be, then perhaps you should check out some of the links provided by other posters (here's my link to explanation of privilege). It is a mark of strong character to examine other points of view & be open to changing one's beliefs as new information is learned.
    Posted 14 months ago by Mama Crass Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "You are not a victim unless some one has intended to victimize you."

    Yes, this is similar to the principle that your leg isn't really broken in a car accident unless the driver was deliberately gunning for you. Walk it off! And by no means suggest that the driver watch where they're going next time.
    Posted 14 months ago by walls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @crowdedsky, Mama Crass, walls: Much love for what you're saying, thanks for saying it.

    Yup, and "words are only powerful if you let them hold power over you!" is so much comfort for the losses of livelihoods and families and lives people deal with every day due to the power of words.
    Posted 14 months ago by miir Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here's my overall viewpoint on slurs, no matter what they are- it's all very well to claim ignorance and tell the objecting party that they're unreasonably butthurt, but if a person's been told explicitly why what they're saying is an issue... the onus is on them. They've been told, so now they should know better. It's not a simple case of "walk away and get over it" when they know better, it's a case of "I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, so you should get over it because you're a baby". Because heaven forbid somebody should take what they've been told into consideration and understand where somebody else (people who have been negatively called "gay" or "n*****" or "gypsy" or whatever) might be coming from; that'd require an attitude adjustment, which, sadly, isn't exactly high priority to those people. When I see that argument being used to justify using words that have been laid out as being insensitive or inappropriate, I have to roll my eyes (that and the "ur a baby shut up and get lost whiners" argument, which almost always comes out of the mouths of people who have no frame of reference for intolerance and thus, don't know what they're talking about). 
    I guess what I'm saying is, if something has been laid out to you and explained as objectionable, you're the asshat in that equation if you decide you can't be bothered; somebody laid out the reasons why what you're saying is inappropriate, and you've given them the finger. That doesn't make them the "looool baby whiner", that makes you a jerk.
    Posted 14 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sticks and stones can break bones, but words can break hearts.
    Posted 14 months ago by Zimmi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Mama Crass:  '...of the "lighten up & get over it" perspective: These comments come across as, "My desire to be disrespectful & say whatever I want is more important than other people's desire to be treated as human."'

    Many of the people who have taken the 'let it go' stance have also made a point of noting that they're mindful of their language and try to be respectful of others. What I (and maybe they) have been trying to say is that we each, individually, are responsible for our reactions, not for others' actions. If there's a nice way to correct someone and point out bad behavior (whether intentional or not), sure, why not. But if you're going to respond with, "You're wrong," out of anger or irritation and let it escalate from there, what good does calling someone out do? In my personal experience with other people being twits, it's usually better to walk away than to get worked up.

    I think there might be some assumption somewhere that random people might be open to you butting in to correct them, and that they'll say, "Gee, thanks! I didn't know I was being such a jerk!" and everything'll be sunshine and flowers. It's a nice thought. Maybe it'll work out that way sometimes. Play it by ear. Most of the time, though... yeah, that's not likely. I'd rather not expend my energy on someone I've probably already decided is ignorant. 
    Posted 14 months ago by Lelly Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @MamaCrass, walls, Djabriil: +1

    If I am responsible for how I react to the use of certain words, then the person speaking those words is responsible for using them.

    No blame, just an acknowledgement of our respective responsibilities in the equation.
    Posted 14 months ago by TK-855 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lelly, I agree with you that often there's not much point about getting worked up about someone who's clearly not going to get it. But there's a difference between responding to, say, a blonde joke with something like "My blonde, Ph.D'd ass respectfully disagrees" vs. "WHAT? Did you even read what you just said?! That's offensive!" (Whether or not anyone would call out a blonde joke is immaterial.) If a critical response can be made in a non-insulting way, then it's worth making--even if it doesn't change anyone's mind immediately, or even register, perhaps several such responses over the years will have an effect. It's also encouraging to lurkers who might feel the sting but not speak up.

    Again, I do agree with you here! I think it's important to pick your battles wisely. And I think your earlier points about privacy and context are really good ones. But some of the other responses in this thread are a lot like, "I'm not racist! My best friend is black!"
    Posted 14 months ago by walls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is truth in both sides of *part* of this argument.

    It is true that words alone carry no weight except the weight that you lend to them.  Words alone can not cause a person TRUE grief or harm.  Only actions against a person can do that.
    I'm not talking about hurt feelings, that is another issue.  I mean actual harm that affects your ability to a happy life in a real and meaningful way...such as losing your job, losing your rights, harming your health, etc.  Words alone cannot do this, unless you decide to let them.

    The caveat to this is when people use words to incite actions against another person.

    If I call someone a bitch in a chatroom, I cannot affect their health, their family, their job, their rights, etc...unless that person decides to harbor a feeling about that word that causes them to undo their own life in response.  
    If I go around an office calling a person a bitch to all of her co-workers in a campaign to turn everyone against her...I have the potential to effectively change her life.

    If a gay man hears a group of teenagers saying "that is so gay" at the mall, it doesn't REALLY affect him in a true way.
    If that group walks over to him and begins shouting gay slurs in his face and physically assaults him...well, then obviously he is being affected in a real and true way.

    In some cases, it is up to you to decide how you will allow another person's words to affect you, it's about personal responsibility.
    In other cases, you are truly being violated and should seek help, retribution, or assistance in some way to protect yourself.

    You, as a mature adult, have to be able to decipher between these two situations and react accordingly.

    There will always be ignorant, hateful, racist and just plain stupid people in the world.  You cannot police everyone, you cannot educate everyone, and I would hate to feel like I had to try to educate and police everyone.  What you can do is take personal responsibility for your reactions to people and decide whether or not, on a case by case basis, a particular situation warrants your time and energy to involve yourself in it any further.

    I always try to decide, when faced with hatred and stupidity, am I going to be able to get through to this person?  Am I going to be able to change this person?  Is this person affecting me or someone else in a real and true way to the point that I must react to this person?
    If not...I ignore them.
    Posted 14 months ago by Poppy of Detwoit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "When someone describes something as "that's so ghetto".  When someone says "that bitch had it coming".  When someone says "I'm going to be a gypsy on Halloween".  When someone says "that's so geh".  What can we as a community do to help make folks comfortable?"

    Tell people to stop being offended by every word and spreading their expectations everywhere. Most of these slurs had meanings far before their slang terms, and people get angry when we use a different meaning for them:
    'that's so ghetto' - Most people don't mean that's so 'destitute african americans shooting up a convenience store', they mean it's shoddy, half-arsed, etc
    'that bitch had it coming' - Really? This is an example of actually using it against someone though, and defining someone as a 'bitch', it could go either way depending on who you're talking about
    'I'm going to be a gypsy for halloween' - It's a statement, they are going to be a gypsy for halloween, there is nothing at all wrong with this statement and if it makes you uncomfortable the problem is certainly yours.
    'that's so geh' - Gay had one meaning, happy, people took it to eventually mean homosexual and it also eventually meant stupid, I'd probably gander that it meant stupid before it meant homosexual, but just not to everyone. Stop being greedy with your words and assuming it can only mean one thing, because if that was the case, it would be happy not homosexual.

    Really why can't people just grow up? So what if someone says something a little uncouth, if it's not meant in a way that's obviously and directly harmful, what is exactly the harm? In your interpretation that is probably just affected by your dealings with the media that purposefully warp the interpretation? Why is anything needed? I've never found anything to be more unacceptable than seeing someone kicked or banned for saying 'wow that's gay', or something of the sort. There's also the option that you can just you know, block the person.
    Posted 14 months ago by Bluigi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This whole thread was a derail of itself from the get-go.

    Over at metafilter they have a saying for what you should do when you find your feathers ruffled by a post or comment: Flag It And Move On. It's so well understood by the community, that it's become an acronym.

    And it fits here too. What to do when your feathers are ruffled and you find yourself offended by Language? You should report it. And move on. The end.
    Posted 14 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Poppy, I would disagree in one respect - sometimes, a casual word thrown out in a chat room can harm someone. It's not just a word, free of consequence because it happened in a virtual environment. And sometimes it's a sign of how far we still have to go: offensive words and their use are taught/learned *somewhere* - it doesn't just happen in a complete vacuum.

    There are people suggesting we should do away with the 14th Amendment, which grants citizenship to children born on U.S. soil, regardless of the parents' own citizenship status. So, while I'm a U.S. citizen, when someone suggested my ENTIRE FAMILY should be shipped the hell back to China because my grandfather came in on another man's papers ... I was bog-woggled. Angry beyond words. It's moments like that that make the high road so difficult.
    Posted 14 months ago by TK-855 Subscriber! | Permalink
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