Topic

Another Debate About Rudeness?

So, I was wondering, is it considered rude to buy up all auctions for a particular item and not leave any?  I was wondering because I frequently need an item, and I just usually buy out every auction I can find, and I didn't think twice about it.  But just now I thought about it, and what if someone else needed that item too?  Is it fair to say first come, first serve?  Or is it rude to just buy everything cause I'm rich and maybe some lower levels/poorer players might need them too?  Any ideas?

Posted 18 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • I appreciate the very civil discussion and inputs. +1 to everyone. Before stoot posted, I was in the middle of pulling it, but I will leave it for now.

    That said, I absolutely agree with striatic, Travinara, et al. The potential for abuse leading to market failures is real. However, the correct fix for this is for TS to fix it on the server side (and it isn't hard). 

    Apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread, I will be quiet now. :)
    Posted 18 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here is the big problem I have with the script (and is possibly based on incorrect assumptions on my part).  If the script automatically snatches up any auction for the chosen item under the specified price, this basically means that somebody not using the script never has a chance to get those cheap auctions.  The script is inevitably faster than *I* will ever be at going through several clicks, at least.

    Buying things from the auction is part of playing the game, and having a script play part of the game for you is really against the spirit of things, in my opinion.  The location and achievement checkers, on the other hand, simply prevent me from having to keep a little notebook to remind myself of things I still want to do.

    Am I missing something?
    Posted 18 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The only missing point is that who would want 200,000 vapours?  that is what they will end up with should they continue to use scripts like this - at the end of the day the problem people are experiencing with the 'open market' is that it is not open - not yet.  Time limitations of the test make a false demand on the market that means there is no balance in the pricing.  This makes scripts like this more profitable - but really only in the short term.

    Use of the script for one off purchase of something cheap will work for those with patience but to be honest Glitchers are not really patient.  And as has been said many many times currants become less of an issue over time.

    I think Ping is doing fantastic job with scripts and should be encouraged and TS will draw the line as and when we ever get to open beta as once the system is open 24/7 and has many more users things will change rapidly :)
    Posted 18 months ago by Accy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You cannot end up with 200,000 vapors with this script (unless you want to do so) since the script lets you set a maximum quantity.  If you want only 250 vapors, that is exactly what the script will fetch you.

    I'm surprised that staff doesn't care for (or the jury is out on) the skills queue script but is fine with the auction fetch script, because the latter does provide an unfair advantage in two primary ways:

    1. As larky lion said, the script will act faster than most people to buy up reasonably priced items, leaving the overpriced items to either wither on auction or be bought by clueless players who do not grok that they are paying too much.  True, some have lots of currants and may really want whatever it is on sale and the high price is worth it, but I will assume that there are many players who have no idea they are wasting their currants.

    Gems are a prime example.  Since the only thing you can do with gems is donate them or collect them for a trophy, they are never worth more than the 10% favor value.  So, if a gem has a value of 1000 currants and the favor value is constant at 100 currants, that gem is never worth more than 1000 currants because if you spend 2000 currants on it, you'll still only get 100 favor.  It's not even worth 1100 currants, because you could spend the 1100 on anything from a vendor and get 110 favor. 

    Cherries are another good example.  Their set value is 1 currant.  I see tons of cherry auctions for 10 currants apiece, which is a huge markup for a resource that you can collect easily on your own.

    Back to the unfair advantage... the script is the great leveler in a way: I'm never going to pay more than 3 currants each for cherries, so I'll set up the script to grab say 1000 cherries at 3 currants max price.  That may help correct the markets for cherries as those putting them up realize how quickly those cheap auctions sell.  But... that script will also gobble them up before a player not using the script.  That player, without the script, is left with overpriced fruit on auction time and time again.  If I set the script to 10,000 cherries, I effectively can corner the market for cheap goods, which benefits me and disadvantages others.  Which brings me to...

    2. Arbitrage - now easier than ever!
    I've read comments to the effect of, 'it's their currants, if they want to pay exorbitant prices, that's there problem!' No, it's not.  As striatic says, that skews the game in favor of those who just seem to think Glitch is Monopoly and the player with the most money or capitalist atitude wins.  It disadvantages those who want to play the game differently.

    I've put up bulk items (they were cherries actually) at a reasonable price (3 currants each) a few times, only to have them snarfed up and resold at 10 currants each by someone who already had cherry auctions going at that price.  That took all the fun out of auctions for me, because part of my wanting to auction cherries was to help players who needed lots of them.  Instead, my work went to someone sitting on the resource, holding out for the currants. How is that fun? How is it fair that someone can now use the auction script to buy every single type of an item listed under their bloated price so that they can turn them around at their bloated price?

    I'd say with the automation, arbitrage becomes totally damaging to the game.  Before it was a matter of annoyance, now it can become ubiquitous to the point where things will suffer.  If there were a fixed numbers of players in the world, I'd even say that the market would come to a stop when players get sick of the above two issues.  But Glitch is a bit Ponzi... it will attract new players all the time... and those new players are the ones who will get fleeced.... learning that the best buy to get ahead is to fleece others.

    I do appreciate ping's development skills and scripts - I'm a huge 3rd party dev fan and hope to see devs building out all kinds of cool stuff.  And I do think this script is clever.  But I also think that it does provide perks to a subset of players at the expense of the rest of the players in a way that other scripts do not.  The skills queue is a problem?  Really?  You can set an alarm on the end of the skill because the skill tells you when it will be done, log into the site and click the next button for a skill and then leave.  That is worlds away from watching the auctions 24/7 - you can't do that, but the script can.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @everyone - I hijacked the thread in the first place and for that I apologize - it seemed relevant enough to the discussion. And Laurali - buying up every last thing is in no way rude, IMHO. 

    @Stoot   - It is the automated part that really makes me feel like this is a wrong thing, the same with the skills queue-er, and not in the spirit of our Glitch Culture. 

    I'm all for people camping themselves on the auction page and buying low and selling high, and for charging 10c a cherry (I really think there's a market like never before for beans and cherries and I think someone should get on that!) but when they are able to do that while they're not present, when they're off having a coffee, then my nose begins to wrinkle with the unfair advantage, and it makes me sad. No one wants a sad Wren Bramble. 

    Anyway - just above me here Zeeberk and Larky Lion have said what I mean better than I could have. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Wren Bramble Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Didn't read the rest of this thread after I saw scripting, but I just wanted to tell you the simple solution. In order to stop auction macros, make all auction actions require a captcha to complete. Selling an item? Fill out a captcha form and hit confirm. Same with buying.
    Posted 18 months ago by Balrog Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Balrog

    TS staff don't want to stop auction macros.  See stoot's post

    Ping's script is exactly the kind of thing we'd like people to build with the API (and what I hoped would happen with auctions).
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like that idea Balrog. I find it really strange that staff could approve something like this.
    Autobuyers have ruined other sites for me in the past, due to the reasons that others have mentioned above. By allowing them here, it's just pretty much saying "We don't care about the economy side of things".  
    Like Wren Bramble says, if people are buying things when they're not even at their computer, how is that fair to others?  
    If this is allowed, it's just going to end up as the person with the most scripts 'wins' and the people who play the game as intended will get nowhere. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ebil

    "the people who play the game as intended will get nowhere."

    If staff believe that the script was something they were hoping would happen, it sounds like using the script IS playing the game as intended.

    Did you mean to say "the people who play the game the way I want to play it"? 
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @zeeberk, my coding skills are irrelevant (the sniper was not difficult to code really). 

    @everyone: I want to do right by the community, so I am still reading and listening carefully to the feedback. Truthfully, I too am surprised that the sniper script passes muster but not the skill queuer.

    At this point though, I'm not sure I can put the proverbial cat back into the bag. Far better that TS fixes it at source. I can and am willing to take down the script but I will bet real money that someone else will come along and build the same thing.
    Posted 18 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No I don't mean to say that WindBorn.  I meant what I said. 
    I personally find it very strange that the staff would hope people will play the game using scripts rather than manually. I can't really understand that logic at all.  Hopefully a staff member could explain the logic behind that. 
    I just don't understand at all what the point of making an economy side to a site is, when people don't even have to be using the site to earn their virtual money? 
    Posted 18 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ebil

    The Glitch API was introduced about 4 months ago.  The whole point of a site using an API is to allow outsiders (non-staff) to develop scripts. 

    Having an API allows anyone to write new applications that work with the elements of the game (thats what API means, Advanced Programming Interface).  From the beginning, TS has intended that outsiders develop apps that run using Glitch data. 

    Usually, the reason to have an API is to allow game features to be developed that
    a) appeal to a niche that is too small for staff to devote time to
    or
    b) allow development of requested features faster than staff can get to them.  A feature might be in high demand but not as high on the staff-time priority list as fixing things that are broken. 

    If you use any apps, or play any games on Facebook, you are taking advantage of an API
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ping - just meant to express that I appreciate how you use your skills to develop 3rd party apps for Glitch and that I hope you continue to do so.

    I agree, this cannot be put back into the box.  Ping could take the script down, but it's already out there, someone else can build it and keep it to themselves or a small group of friends.  So, for me, it's not about taking the script down.  I'd want the site to prevent this script from working.

    Except that stoot sounds cool with the script, so it sounds like a moot point.  I'm with ebil, I'd like to better understand the logic, since I honestly don't get it.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This whole thread has taken a really interesting turn.  I don't actually use auctions much for selling--I have found that I have more than enough currants just leveling up, which I like because it keeps my time free to do stuff that is more interesting to me than grinding in the mines or making and selling 1000 awesome pots.   Fairly recently I changed my gameplay so that I rather compulsively pet/water/harvest resources, so I never have to buy basics like cherries at auction.  I only hit the auctions if I don't happen to have a specific thing like a music block, or I bought one of the first purple flowers out of curiosity, or sometimes I need EHSP but it's kind of a bee-yatch to make, that kind of thing.

    Since I don't have to haunt the auctions, I most likely miss out on the lowest prices most of the time, which goes pretty far to explain my longtime general sense that buying at auction always costs more.  I guess the auction sniper would reinforce that too.  I don't like it for the same reasons outlined as Trav/zee/striatic, but I also don't have much stake in it.

    If the game mechanics changed in such a way that I was forced to rely more on auctions for resources...well, that would pretty much suck, but I guess that is more "realz" or whatever.

    I am surprised that the skills queuer is the thing that seems iffy to the devs, but frankly I don't use it much because most of the skills left available to me take a day or more.  When skill learning zoomed by in hours or minutes, a queue was an Alphsend...now? Not so much.

    ETA: I love ping and think she is awesome. Or he, in case that is the case.
    Posted 18 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Windborn, I don't think Ebil is questioning the API per se but the specific example of a script that runs in the background being able to affect gameplay in a way that clearly benefits the player using the script over the player who does not.

    edited to add: 

    Actually, 'benefit' is the wrong term- all script sare beneficial, really.  Advantage.  This script gives a clear and deep advantage to those using it over those who do not.  
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Nanookie

    The Skills Queuer is going to be a bigger philosophical issue once the game goes live.

    Right now, we all have access to the queuing in a manner of speaking, because the devs give us warning to start our long skills just before the test ends.  Then there is a long period where no one can do anything about learning a new skill once the old one is finished.

    When the game goes live, everyone will have to be on their toes since there won't be any time you can walk away from the game knowing that no one else can start a new skill while you are gone.  You aren't disadvantaged by people using the skill queue.

    When the game goes live, anyone with an alarm clock will be able to learn all the skills by immediately switching the Rock to the next skill when the alarm goes off. 

    The question is whether or not it is an unfair advantage for some people to be able to start the next skill when they are at work or in school or in any other situation where they can't log in to Glitch. 
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot's ideas of what the game should or will be are not necessarily exactly what testers think it should or will be.  To me, the skill script is harmless, in that it doesn't hurt any other player.  It gives the user a real-world advantage (he doesn't have to go back to his computer to click "learn," so he can actually leave the house or whatever), but zero in-game advantage.

    As others have said, the auction script could create artificially high prices.  Personally, I almost never use the auctions in the first place, because while I don't have much to spend game money on at this point, I still don't want to waste it.  I'm a frugal and self-sufficient person, so since I can obtain almost every item in the game on my own, I typically do so.  Once in a while, I'll try to buy something at auction because it's needed for a project, but it's quite rare that I'll actually find what I need listed at all.  Often the people in the New Streets group are waiting to hear what's needed for a project, and when it's announced, they'll put whatever they have up for auction at a price ten or more times the item's listed value.  I'm not interested in paying two hundred currants per barnacle, or a thousand per lump of loam.  So someone using a script to instantly purchase every reasonably-priced item is unquestionably going to stop me from buying at auction at all.

    Of course, the great equalizer here is that just about everyone could run these scripts, so in that sense they don't give anyone an advantage over anyone else.  I do think that the pertinent section of the TOS should be rewritten, because the scripts sound like clear violations, when, in fact, they are apparently not. 
    Posted 18 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "The question is whether or not it is an unfair advantage for some people to be able to start the next skill when they are at work or in school or in any other situation where they can't log in to Glitch."


    But hey, it's cool to have a bot snipe up your auctions when you can't log on because you're at work or school or some other situation where you can't watch the auctions 24/7. /snark


    Why doesn't the skills queue bug me? Because you can only go so far on it until you are met with needing to spend an emblem to learn a skill.  There are natural barriers to the skills queue.


    And how is it an unfair advantage, really, if you set a few skills back-to-back because you can't log into the game because you're at work for 5 days?  When the game is 24/7, maybe some people will only be able to play on the weekend for a few hours.   So what if they grabbed a few skills while they were not able to play?  In that sense, it evens out the play between those who can play 40 hours a week and those who can play two.  There's no real advantage gained here from the skill queue, other than player convenience, and I would bet that staff is more concerned about slowing down the overall pace of learning skills because there are so few of them right now than any unfair advantage that might be gained by queuing them.



    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Why is having a bot buy your auctions (for the price you have set) worse than having a real-time human buy your auctions?

    If you can't log in to buy, then they aren't "your" auctions anyway. 

    I'm not worried about anyone 'cornering the market' for 'rare' items.  If the seller cares who gets the item, there are other mechanisms for making sure the 'right' person gets the item.  If you have an agreement with someone to buy something from them, then you get 'your' item from them, not the auction. 
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @zeeberk: Oh I understood what you meant. I forgot to say thanks :)

    And ping is a she. Girl geeks rule.

    And now back to your regular thoughtful discussions...
    Posted 18 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • WindBorn: "Why is having a bot buy your auctions (for the price you have set) worse than having a real-time human buy your auctions?"


    Did you read my earlier post?


    1. A player using the script will always have the advantage in buying up the cheap or reasonably priced auctions, leaving the overpriced greed-sucking auctions for players not using the script.  Think about your play time.  Are you watching the auctions every 5 seconds to see when the cheap loam will go up or are you running around playing the game?  The script is watching all the time.  Want that DR3?  No worries?  the script will always find it whereas you would need to sit there hitting F5 all day.


    2. Arbitrage. "The simultaneous buying and selling of securities, currency, or commodities in different markets or in derivative forms in order to take advantage of differing prices for the same asset. "


    Say you want to sell loam at 5000/piece.  No one else sells at that price. You have wads of currants from your other overpriced auctions.  You set your snipe for 1000 loam at 4999.  You will now get every loam auction that ever comes up and you can re-auction them at your 5000.  No one else gets in.  Arbitrage on steroids.  The example is extreme only to illustrate the point.  This already happens, but now is 1000% easier.


    So, I'll turn the question around and present it to you: how is having a bot buy your auctions (for the price you have set) *the same as* having a real-time human buy your auctions?  How does it *not* incur an unfair advantage?
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well this has taken quite a turn from the original post. I am glad to see I offend no one with my extreme purchases of earthshakers, because I believe it's cheaper/easier than spending time and energy collecting ingredients myself, and I make a ton of money using no energy.

    I didn't know this auto auction tool existed, and like others I think it provides an unfair advantage. However, and I'm not speaking for devs, but from my experiences the devs like to "experiment" with things judt as much as we do. Perhaps allowing the auto auction is a cool experiment for the devs to watch. Stoot said it will be removed
    Posted 18 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Continued: if it begins to cause a lot of problems.

    As for the difference between skill queue and auto auction, the auction is kind of a side note in the game, you don't ever have to use it, and it is not really a part of "gameplay". However, the skills are essential to gameplay and it is providing an unfair advantage to certain players who have the script. I assume since it gives an advantage to such an essential part of the game, thats why it is a problem for devs
    Posted 18 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One more thing, as for the economy, it will most likely even itself out. For instance, nobody will pay one million currants for cherries. If the price is too high, people won't buy it. While this isn't a perfect system and problems can arise, it tends to work out pretty well.

    Is there a limit to how long your auction can last? For instance, you can only have an auction for 3 or 5 days max, and the end of which your item comes back to you and you lost the money it takes to put your item for auction? If that doesn't already exist, it should because it will keep people from posting items in the game for more than people are willing to pay, or else they are losing money. Or perhaps fines for every few days your auction is listed.

    Most items in this game you can collect your self, or you don't NEED them, so if prices get too high peoples will just gather/make the item for themselves. It is another way to self regulate prices. And rare items SHOULD be very expensive, otherwise they wouldn't be rare.

    The auto auction would mess this system up for sure. Not sure how the market can self regulate with a machine snatching up all the items. While it may not be a serious issue during testing (just an annoyance), I think it could evolve into a very serious problem. I do have faith the devs will stop it before it gets to that point though
    Posted 18 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The entire concept of arbitrage and automated buying (and indeed the new auction tool) works in a real world setting, because there are other elements influencing things. Prices are always in a state of flux which makes things like Sell Orders and Stop Losses handy.

    Those practices used to be considered extremely unfair by those who didn't have easy (affordable) access to them, and indeed they served to keep the wealthy investors wealthy while the investor would didn't have a 'service' had only marginal gains because they had to do it manually. Now day-trading and market speculation can be done in your jammies in front of your PC and the 'value' in the service is something entirely different. 

    The whole analogy falls apart when you consider the prices for most commodities are generally 'fixed' by the vendors and/or favor value. There's a handful of more rare items that tend to exceed their value, but they're few. Essentially the tool takes care of the Stop Loss order, while at the same time there's little risk in prices changing dramatically so no way to 'take a loss in the market' unless you're new and/or didn't know better. It also falls apart on the basis that ping has always freely shared her tools once the worst of the snarls are combed out.

    To OP: Thanks for being great about the post getting hijacked, seems it was a discussion the community was ready to have, thanks for providing an outlet for it... and for being a gracious host of the party :D 
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • let's talk about arbitrage versus market manipulation.

    arbitrage is a good thing..

    the reason arbitrage is a good thing is that it increases the speed at which producers can see a profit on their product, which gives them more immediate capital to invest in productive things, and is generally a good thing in supporting economic activity.

    in terms of glitch, arbitrage is good for everyone when someone who wants a speedy return on, say, growing spinach, gets a higher, speedier return by putting something up for auction [keeping the value within the player base] versus selling to vendors [draining the value out]. also, when that speed is leveraged to produce more offsetting any 'losses' from not waiting out the market. this is like, buying more seeds more quickly to get additional harvest cycles in.

    that kind of arbitrage and it is *great* and if anything glitch needs more of it right now. it would be a great boon to the auction system.

    market manipulation is something else. i can use arbitrage as a tool and sometimes it is difficult to tell the difference but generally speaking it does not foster productivity but instead stifles it.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Course there's also the unintentional market manipulation (which was the thing OP thought might be 'rude') of the capacity for a single person to 'buy out' and element of the market. That may or may not thin down depending on how many sellers there get to be.

    It'll be fun to see how it all shakes out over the course of the test. Once we get past the 'empty market' stage of the test, who knows? Initially I think we're going to see inflated prices again (whatever the cause), hopefully it levels out.
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Essentially the tool takes care of the Stop Loss order, while at the same time there's little risk in prices changing dramatically so no way to 'take a loss in the market' unless you're new and/or didn't know better."

    but that's a huge problem.

    you don't want 'new' players taking a bath. like zeeberk mentions, it scares off players who don't want to play the game a certain way .. or don't even know what the "game" is .. they're just losing at it.

    arbitrage can help foster a thriving player economy but pales in comparison with getting more and more players involved.

    also, if you have a relatively continuous number of players who are 'new or don't know better' cycling through the system, that can form enough of a market to support the dramatic price increases and lock out the players who do know better.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmm... Just want to point out in the queue script vein that, for me at least, I have to be on a Glitch page, like the forums or the home page or my profile or something, for my queued skills to continue to the next after I finish one.

    That may not be how it's supposed to work, but it seems to never fail that if I have a skill queued up to follow the next, and I close the tab or log out, it doesn't continue through (and I always have to re-queue things).

    I don't use it very often, but I do like it at times.

    As for market stuff.. I don't know. I haven't played around in this market enough to have a good sense of it, and I know it'll change when the game goes public.
    Posted 18 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In my experience as a new player and from what I've heard from other players, the auction isn't something you really start experimenting with until you have got a firm grasp on the game. Sure that's not true for everyone, but most new players want to learn the game before they try to make money or auction items.
    Posted 18 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @LittleMissGiggles: I have the same problem! Although I'm trying to get a lot of long skills down so its not been that big of a problem yet
    Posted 18 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yea, I don't find it a big problem as I've got mostly longer skills left as well, and I think that since you can't just queue up and log out/close the page, it might even out some of the reasons that others think make it a potentially bad script.
    Posted 18 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "In my experience as a new player and from what I've heard from other players, the auction isn't something you really start experimenting with until you have got a firm grasp on the game. Sure that's not true for everyone, but most new players want to learn the game before they try to make money or auction items."

    sure .. for *selling* at auction.

    *buying* at auction is something altogether different, and is what is at issue.

    i met a player months ago who was buying diamonds at auction and then reselling them for 5k to 10k when diamonds are worth only 1.6k to sell or donate, and in the time the player spent to get the 5k to 10k to spend they could've more easily found a diamond on their own.

    basically the market for the 5x value diamonds was from players who didn't understand the actual rarity, or misunderstood the nature of increased donation for favor or misunderstood some other concept due to being new or naive.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yow - I worked in and around the capital markets for upwards of a dozen years and I know plenty of CEOs of publicly-listed companies who couldn't have this sort of sophisticated discussion about market mechanics.

    So, sorta OT but just wanted to note that this is a cool, intellectually curious, intelligent group (not that you all didn't know that, but....)
    Posted 18 months ago by jasbo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic
    Information is power. I was inspired by your post, so here's something that may help the newbies.

    http://beta.glitch.com/groups/RHV10V06BH5240F/discuss/1211/
    Posted 18 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ooo, ping! I'm at work right now (hehehe) so I can't check it out for reals, but that looks really excellent.
    Posted 18 months ago by Jennyanydots Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nice script, ping! :)
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
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