Topic

"Nerf alert" question/discussion

Nerf alert: Vendor buy/sell price spreads have increased, auctions now take 10m to get delivered and some awesome pot recipes give less XP.

I understand how less XP is nerfing things, but I don't understand how increased time waiting for auctions is.  And I think I understand the price spread thing?

Could someone explain it to me without any commentary on nerfing being bad or necessary or whatever (just *how* it is nerfing)?  I don't mind if commentary is here eventually but I'd like to understand the stuff before it is :) (edit: understanding: check!)

Posted 8 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • What's the buy/sell price spread mean?
    Posted 8 months ago by AwesomeCardinal2000 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What's pasted above is all that I've seen, but I'm assuming it means that when you sell back something to a vendor, you get a smaller percentage of the original price than you did before.
    Posted 8 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The price at which a vendor will sell you something has been increased; the price at which it will buy that same thing has been decreased.

    Increased waiting time is nerfing b/c ... it takes longer to get the stuff you bought.
    Posted 8 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • BUT, that tweet was sent out prematurely … those changes have not actually happened yet :)
    Posted 8 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Why would you want to make it take longer for us to get our auction stuff Stoot? D:
    Posted 8 months ago by Syrup Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you stoot!

    I guess with the waiting time I thought the term nerfing implied a specific game-balance reason for changes and I wasn't sure what that might be.
    Posted 8 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • All these steps are undoubtedly preparation for us moving to a more direct player-to-player economy. Selling to a vendor becomes a less attractive proposition, even if it is more convenient. The auction house, which is both impersonal and has its "floor" set by vendor prices, is also being rendered less appealing.

    As we transition to the new Imagination economy, I imagine (heh) that player-to-player transactions will gain in importance and ubiquity.
    Posted 8 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That makes sense Pascale!  Right now I'd see waiting ten minutes for an auction item to be still worth it in a lot of cases, but then when things change down the road it won't be as worth it.
    Posted 8 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't get it - nerfing vendors favors auctions.  Why then would you also nerf the auctions?
    Posted 8 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ah, what Pascale is talking about, the direct player-to-player economy? It's been talked about before that they want to make the game more interdependent between players - relying on players rather than vendors for resources you need to buy.  I think mentioning phasing out vendors altogether as well as developing a system to sell in-game in an easier fashion. So nerfing both would be good preparation for that I guess!
    Posted 8 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If I had to guess (and only a guess) all steps to favor player run vendors.
    Posted 8 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Pascale nailed it, I bet.  This encourages trades.  You know, when you click on another Glitch, face to face, and in the menu that pops up, there is a "trade" option?

    The thing I've always liked about auctions was that higher prices could often be worthwhile because you could get goods delivered to where-ever you were, should you need them in an emergency.  So, I'm not particularly happy about longer waiting times.  However, it does present more of a challenge, and forces us to be a little more creative about how we go about things, so it's an interesting trade-off.
    Posted 8 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmmmm... looks like Hardware vendor is updated.  Things are certainly different prices now.
    Posted 8 months ago by Grem Sketch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Would like to see the expiration time for auctions extended. That will increase the volume of items for sale so that the market will work better to establish right pricepoint

    At the moment many low trade items don't have any items listed... which makes it hard to assess a fair market price
    Posted 8 months ago by Zogje Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It also kills that pesky auction skimming script I wrote.  Which is OK, it needed to die anyway.

    And before ya'll wonder if it made me rich.  The answer is no.  There were much better ways to earn money in Glitch than skimming deals off the AH.
    Posted 8 months ago by Vicereine Linnæa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • less XP for awesome pot recipes? what? 

    D= 
    Posted 8 months ago by King Jay Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Auctions take ten minutes? Fucking hell, why would you even...guh. *shakes head* Stop taking ideas from the Scion of Purple, guys!
    Posted 8 months ago by Kestin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lame
    Posted 8 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • dont mind the price increase but 10 minute for auctions is kinda ridiculous .
    Posted 8 months ago by spiffyllama Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The changes to vendor prices have taken place.

    I've put the new vendor prices on my blog here: http://mathemaglitch.blogspot.ca/2012/04/vendor-prices.html
    Posted 8 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • They idea is they don't want you to buy from the auction ALL THE TIME or the vendors either. Longer wait time is supposed to encourage Glitch interaction, one on one. It makes sense for the direction they are trying to take the game.
    Posted 8 months ago by Rikki Booben Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Encouraging interaction is one thing, but making it nearly impossible to enjoy the game if you're more comfortable alone is another. I for one have always despised face-to-face buying and selling, and marketplaces are a godsend for me. It's not just my social awkwardness; it's more convenient in every way. No trying to coordinate schedules, no worrying about prices (you can just check the other listings!), no...ARGH I just HATE buying and selling without an automated market system. And now people aren't going to put things up on auction as much and everything just...ugh. I hate this. One minute was way too long already. I HATE this.
    Posted 8 months ago by Kestin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm wondering if with the vendor changes some auction prices will go through the roof and some through the floor. Especially with time added. It will all take time and patients to iron out.
    Posted 8 months ago by jiva Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What about introverts?
    Posted 8 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Kestin, I think a good automated market system makes games much more enjoyable. Increasing the auction time will definitely discourage use of the auction system.

    I don't mind face-to-face buying and selling, but I prefer those more for expensive/large trades or sales, which is not what the majority of trades/sales are. Meeting someone face to face or waiting 10 minutes just to buy one piggy feeder or 250 beans or whatever is not my cup of tea; it just makes me more likely to just say "eh, I'll just make/gather my own instead", ending up with less player interaction rather than more player interaction as intended.

    Also, a robust automated market system also makes it easier for newbies to navigate the system and the prices. It makes it less likely that someone will get ripped off or scammed, especially for newer players who don't know what fair prices for items are yet.

    Just my two cents, everyone is different and I'm sure there are others who will see differently :)
    Posted 8 months ago by Omnika Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Kestin, from what I've read earlier there will be better ways in the future to buy player-to-player.  Right now it's really inconvenient, but later there will be a better method for it, so at least there is something for you to look forward to!

    Humbabella - thank you! That's awesome.
    Posted 8 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • yeah, proper rice gives about 1/3 of the xp it gave yesterday. :(

    Oh well. I don't see the need for the change given that xp is going to disappear anyway. I was just enjoying the race to level up before the switch to imagination. Yeah, proper rice gave too much xp before but so what?

    I the real world it really does take more expertise to make proper rice than you'd think.

    Anyways...I guess I can just do something else. :(
    Posted 8 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • from what I've read earlier there will be better ways in the future to buy player-to-player.

    The auctions are ALREADY player-to-player, and they work very well (thankyouverymuch) with good price discovery to boot.   What the hell do they expect us to do - roam around Ur yelling "Onions for sale!  Onions for sale!"  - that's crap. 
    Posted 8 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WalruZ
    "roam around Ur yelling "Onions for sale!  Onions for sale!"
    Why does that remind me of, "Bring out your dead!" from Monty Python?
    Posted 8 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • OK, speculation about what the system will be is fine.  Pointing out the pitfalls of the various solutions is good.  But let's not all get our minty pickle stockings in a bind about something that may not happen!

    Remember, " better ways in the future " could be just about anything!
    Posted 8 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The update below the one mentioned by the OP says, "The magic of pagination has been added to the top of Forum topics. Page switching just got easier."

    I understand what is meant, but I don't see any difference here at the forum... ^_^;
    Posted 8 months ago by Genkimama Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Volkov - it's actually a reference to Oliver, where a character roams the streets crying "Boy for sale, Boy for sale" - one of the songs I believe. 

    Part of me would like a bit of price discontinuity in the game - I wished once for an automat or vending machine that I could put in my yard (tied to my house I hope) that I could put items in.  I could experiment with price differentials, good ones, bad ones.  We all could, and visiting your friends could include shopping, as it were.  

    BUT - the auctions aren't the part of the economy that's broken, and they don't need to be fixed.  At least not in my opinion. 
    Posted 8 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just my two cents: I think changing vendor prices is fine, though I really dislike the 10 minutes wait for auction items. I think that's really pointless. I also dislike the player-to-player trading aspect becoming the biggest part; in a lot of games like this I tend to not make a lot of friends, and as I've been playing around for the past week-ish, I haven't seen a lot of players. Perhaps it's the time I play at, but a lot of time it is pretty barren.

    I'm sure I could adjust to the changes, but I dislike most of them.
    Posted 8 months ago by Skiffidy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Why are firefly jars priced higher if we can't craft them ourselves? Along with lots of other stuff.
    Posted 8 months ago by AwesomeCardinal2000 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Some time ago, didn't the devs mention plans for player-run shops of some kind? So, for now the alternative to vendors or the auction house is trading, but that probably won't always be the case. Us introverts won't be forced to get all social :)
    Posted 8 months ago by Nixified Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just tried an auction purchase. The ten minute wait feels INTERMINABLE.
    Posted 8 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What percentage of Glitchen are in the US and Canada?  I would guess pretty high.

    Emphasizing face to face transactions puts Glitchen from other regions at a serious disadvantage in the game. The Aussie Glitchen are going to have to stay up all night to find a trading partner.
    Posted 8 months ago by Miss Bobbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Excuse me, Stoot-baby - why 10 minutes?  Could we get, you know, a REASON?  Something perhaps beside just "It'll all work out in the great by-and-by." - ?  'cause this does suck. 
    Posted 8 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, what Kestin and Volkov and Pascale and others have said.  :: nods nods ::
    Change it back please devs.
    Posted 8 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I actually agree with LBO that these changes are to pre-empt the introduction of player-run vendors/vending machines. And so I hesitate to pre-judge these changes.

    But @stoot, I have a nagging suspicion that you may (gasp!) have overtweaked this. 

    Based on a chart produced by very patient Glitch, there appears to be 10 different prices at which I can sell my never dwindling pile of musicboxes. If you think about it, the absolute difference, in terms of currants, is actually pretty small for most items but the variance is quite daunting at first glance. Plainly put, it's confusing. This is probably worse for a new Glitch (oh think of the little children!) with less currant-earning power. I would have prefered a straightforward 10% cut across the board.

    In any case, the overall average vendor buy-back pricing is about 10% lower than before, and sell pricing about 10% higher. I guess all these are to wean players off npc vendor selling/buying. Couple this with the 10-minute delay in auction delivery, you must REALLY REALLY want Glitches to move to the yet-to-exist player-run vendor bots.

    But until these player-run bots are available, we are all worse off. We either have to make the long walk to the nearest Vendor X and pay higher prices than before, or buy from auction (hopefully cheaper) and be forced to wait. Neither are fun in my opinion.
    Posted 8 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We'll see.
    Posted 8 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, guys, really, I do not see the reason for auction taking 10 minutes too. If I need a thing I can't produce myself I will still go to the auction\vendor and grumble waiting for the whole 10 minutes. I do not feel very comfortable communicating with strangers and have not many friends to make any "player-to-player economy". 
    Posted 8 months ago by bumz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • http://www.glitch.com/help/faq/#q28
    Posted 8 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One possible benefit of 10 minute wait for auctions: When street projects return (I assume they will) it will discourage buying needed materials off the auctions - we'll have time to run home and get them out of our home stock or maybe even harvest them before the auctions can provide the materials. This is a definite plus from my point of view.
    Posted 8 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Once again, voice of reason, this is BETA.
    TS is trying stuff out.
    And learning about our emergent player markets.
    Better to do this by degrees.
    Posted 8 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hadn't thought of street projects.
    What I *did* think of was the other day, how I accidentally poisoned one of my trees and had to wait for the auction to come.  The tree died whilst I was waiting.  I had no ingredients to mix up an Antidote myself, no friends close by, no means to run and gather ingredients and the tincture and potions kits immediately and save the tree.  If the auction had been faster, it would have saved me an extra seasoned bean.  But whatever, my point is, if street projects are the focus of the nerfing, this may be a good thing, but when you consider *every other freaking thing* it affects, it's still a pain in the arse.  =/
    Posted 8 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm planning on sending a new Glitch through the first thirty levels when we make the switch to imagination.  Depending on the timing of it, I might even wait until the switch to no vendors at all!  I expect that that will provide better feedback on the new system than speculation on transitional phases.  No?
    Posted 8 months ago by Carl Projectorinski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, it's beta, yes it's testing.  Which means those of us playing should be giving feedback on changes and additions like this--even if that feedback is, "That change made things irritating without serving any obvious purpose to mitigate the irritation."
    Posted 8 months ago by MG Botia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yep, gotta agree with Botia.  NOW is the time to provide feedback that it might be the most useful.  Feedback includes saying the things we don't like.  Not just the things we do like.
    Posted 8 months ago by Shallawalla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The ten minute auction delivery will discourage some of the mobs standing around the Tool vendor, simply buying and selling. I did some of that. Example, buy meat at 5 currants and selling at 8 = 240 currants profit a stack. Do that a hundred times and you've made 24000 currants.
    Posted 8 months ago by Enelyse Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The price spread might discourage that, but the wait won't.  Resellers are there for hours and the wait isn't important to them. 
    Posted 8 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here's the deal though: players always have complaints about changes, usually based on how it affects them individually, with no thought to how it might affect the game world as a whole, the balance between new players and vets, or any of hundreds of other concerns that are completely independent from whether individual players "like" the new mechanic, probably based on statistics they have about in-game behaviors that none of us have access to.   

    I really doubt there was a meeting with someone saying, "Hey, I know what will make the players happy, make auction deliveries take 10 minutes!"  They didn't put this in because the players would be huge fans.  Simply saying "I don't like it" is useless feedback.  

    That's not to say no one should ever give feedback about balance changes.  Just to say that unless you know the precise reason, which here we don't, the feedback will not apply to the reason and thus will not influence another shift. 

    I can imagine reasons that would justify it, and I can imagine reasons for doing it that would not justify it.  But I doubt the reason was to make players happy -- that wouldn't make sense.  And I doubt the reason was just to laugh at a new frustration for players, that wouldn't make sense either.  
    Posted 8 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There you go, Saucelah, being perfectly reasonable again.  :D
    Posted 8 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink