I suspect that TS's real attitude toward grabbing other people's stuff off the ground is much like stoot's attitude to swearing in game. He's made it clear that a few f***s and c***s are not an issue to him. But he added (And I quote from the recent Dawgg fight), "going around persistently swearing just because you know other people find it offensive is the kind of thing that will get you silenced from public chat channels or even kicked out of the game." My guess is he would say much the same thing about anyone who persistently went around making life miserable for other players, regardless of the fact that each individual act of jerkdom were technically within the "rules".
Hawkwell I hope you are right, I'm fairly sure you are.
Thought long and hard about adding my thoughts here,
I'd say any action that sets out to deliberately upset, deny or derail another player from enjoying their time, effort, contribution to this world is an act of griefing, unless that player is the one who is deliberately griefing others.
As a Glitchen who likes to create art in game I have yet to complete a piece without someone homing in to take the items I am placing down, even when as with the 9/11 memorial it was obvious that this was an occassion when such behaviour was actually griefing not only myself but also all the others who came to pay tribute that day.
That day aside when nothing will convince me it was anything less than griefing.
I spent a lot of time on each art piece, I never asked that people do not take stuff only that I be allowed to finish and get the screen shots I needed to save the memory of the work before it was taken. Even that simple request was blatently ignored, even on the final day before reset, and before anything was mentioned about prime levels my final in-world piece was griefed. I did get to finish it eventually but it sealed the fate of future in game art works from me.
As it stands any future art works will be in a place they cannot be griefed, my house, group halls, friends homes ect. Which is very sad for those that enjoyed them out in the world at large, but I cannot be forever lining other Glitches pockets especially when those Glitch have shown they have no respect for what I (and many others) derive pleasure from.
As someone who has been a frequent victim of griefing by some group (for reasons known only to them) I just want to point out that they may also be doing harm to that person's computer.
While attempting to work on projects or do quests I have been splanked, or attacked with sneezing powder which causes my ancient computer to sieze up (sometimes for several hours) and I am left frozen and unable to respond. I've never done anything to anyone here to initiate this griefing. Maybe they are children doing this...I cannot imagine an adult displaying this kind of behavior.
This is such a wonderful game, to have it spoiled by such a mean-spirited few.
Ramona, that truly sucks. FYI, I believe blocking specific people makes them unable to splank you. Also, have you reported (once your computer has un-frozen)? What you refer to sounds like the systematic harassment Hawkwell believes might not be tolerated.
@ Ramona, the sneezing and splanking could purely be someone trying to get a badge.
The sneezing powder did used to make my computer freeze up and really annoyed me, but it is actually part of the game, since the devs have made an achievement for getting 5 people to sneeze at once. Sneeze-O-Rama badge.
With the splanking there's also an achievement for splanking a certain number of people. Hanky Splanky badge.
So they may not have been being intentionally mean, but simply going for a badge and completely unaware of the effects it causes to your computer.
Even now, if several players hug, kiss and moon me all at once, my computer freezes for a while and often crashes, but I don't think the people hugging, kissing and mooning are griefers at all, most are just being friendly and playing the game.
@ jasbo, I usually just try to ignore it, because life is really too short to spend it responding to such silliness. It is only when my computer is disabled that it bothers me.
@ Ebil, I hope you are right that it is only those attempting to complete a quest who are doing this. It's good to know that I am not the only one who has the computer freezing issue. So frustrating when it happens. But it's all good. No worries.
@Laurali, oh yes, honest mistakes are totally different. As I say, this was a case of explaining ahead of time that I was chopping toward a goal and planned to replant, etc. I think the whole "Denied!" thing makes it obvious they knew darn well they were griefing :) Plus most folks who do the kind of thing you describe will apologize if you explain what's going on. I never mind that; we all do that sort of thing.
I didn't even know "griefing" existed before reading this thread and I had to google the term to really understand what it was. (I found the thread before it had been well-defined by a post.)
I keep thinking about this question and it's been hard for me to come up with a definitive answer.
First of all, I tend to think that the nature of this game is one of kindness and generosity, and I think that is mostly the kinds of people it will attract. But it's not 100%. I think just the way the game is designed though, will eventually make "griefing" boring for some who like to behave that way and that is why requests were made to make it easier to do so (and I assume that's why those requests will go unfulfilled.) There is really not a lot someone can do here in Ur to screw with others. Nevertheless it's still an unpleasant experience, especially when we expect otherwise in UR.
I really dislike the idea that some people would play in a way that would upset others just for the pure enjoyment of upsetting them. That's pretty sick (and not in the good way of being "sick") and perhaps even sociopathic or at least a very insecure, manipulative and socially awkward way of getting some attention. The terms "energy vampire" comes to mind, and "trolling". And "restraining order". (Come to think of it, maybe the devs can create a kind of restraining order here in Ur! If someone is repeatedly mean to another player, and they get enough reports about it, maybe they could write a script keeping the offenders off the street that the victim is currently on!)
But, like it or not, behavior like this is just another part of life. Sometimes life isn't fair and sometimes it's downright cruel. And although most of us see the potential Ur has to be a utopia that we don't often find IRL and that's why we like it, it still has people from real life playing in it as the cute little glitchlings, which opens itself up to the 1% that ruin it for everyone else.
But only if we let it!
We have the choice whether we want to get upset. By changing our perspectives about the behavior we may be able to avoid getting upset.
I think there are several tactics we can try to employ to dissuade this kind of behavior. I am going to list some suggestions that may or may not work towards this effort:
1. Try to feel sympathy for those who feel it necessary to behave like this. And report it.
2. Whatever they did, allow them to do it again as a "gift". Oh, you liked doing that? Well, I'm a Glitchen and I like bringing other people joy, so here, you may do it again. And they will lose the pleasure they had from thinking they made you upset because if it made you upset, why would you allow them to do it again? But at the same time, report it.
3. Give them a hug or kiss with your emotional bear. Or moon them! Or LOL and make your little glitchling laugh! Or jump around. And report them.
4. Teleport away. And report them.
5. Consider overcoming what they did to become a part of the quest! Wow, not only did I achieve that badge, but I did it with a griefer on my ass - that was tough and I'm now really proud of getting this badge! Accept that some badges might just have to come with some extra challenges as much as we don't like it. (Maybe the devs can write a script so we can put a halo around some of the badges if we achieved them under the duress of a griefer, or if they were particularly challenging to us for whatever reason.)
6. We can form a group that is invite only to come to the aid of those who have been griefed. If I got a call in the chat from someone in an area that I'm in that someone took something of theirs or said something mean, I would like to go to them and give them a hug with my emotional bear. Now, what would happen if 20 of us did that? It might make the person feel better, right? We can all then put that griefer on our blocked list and in general watch out for them. We could give the victim little glitchen gifts of herbs and food and what not and maybe someone would be able to voyage with them on the remainder of their quest. We can call it the Good Vibe Group or something like that.
7. Change what your goals are for a little while. Instead of completing that quest you're working on, start harvesting fruit. Or giving hugs to others, or make food or go mine. Or meditate. Or radiate meditate and give them some mood. There is always a million things to do in Ur, and postponing the completion of one quest for a few minutes until the griefer gets bored will be well worth it. Because that's why they do it, right? Because they're bored? So, if we make it more boring for them to behave like this, maybe they'll stop. Or at least they will move on.
8. If you're feeling particularly vengeful, start following them around and if you see them do something "griefer-like" to another player you'll be right there to give the new victim a hug and a cocktail and encourage that player to report the griefer.
Since I really don't have much experience in MMORPG's (Glitch is my first), I have no idea if any of these suggestions will work or not. But I think they are at least worth a shot.
I do think it's important that we report malicious behavior.
And I also think it's important that we pay attention to our bags and whether we have enough room in our inventories to hold things that we cook or mine so we can keep them off the ground for griefers to steal from under our little glitchling noses.
*I'm sorry that your computer is slow Ramona, but I don't think there's any way for another player to know that so giving a hug, kiss, or sneeze, or whatever can't be considered griefing per se. However, I do wish we could have a standard piece of clothing or some way to identify players in your situation so we can tread lightly around you. Because I *know* most people here wouldn't want to make your computer freeze up for hours. The biggest problem with being able to identify you visually is that then real griefers could easily identify you as well and then you might become a target for negative behavior. Maybe we could all try to ask, "Do you have enough mood to handle a kiss with garlic breath?" But I think some people have trouble with the chat function from reading other threads and it just invites a disruption to the flow of the game - but don't think I have given up thinking about a way to fix your problem! (Aside from the obvious one of you purchasing a new computer.) But! Maybe we can get a group together for the donation of older but still good computers to players who need an upgrade. :-D Don't worry, it will all work out somehow.
The idea of "adding story/conflict" is one that walks a careful line. I'm for it... but, for me, it need to be consenting. FORCING conflict onto some is griefing ("Ha! I am going to antidote your tree poison! Look at me! Now you have a villain! I don't care what project you might have been working on! Isn't this fun?").
You can draw people in in a fun way where you aren't actively messing with other's play. I think the Anti-Purple/Pro-Purple are both fun examples of this. HOWEVER, if either side were to charge into a community garden and snatch purple crops from before the very eyes of some innocent bystander who planted purple for their own reasons and just did react quite fast enough... that's, well, kinda crappy. (Handing them a brochure that discusses the horrors/wonders of purple and invites them to a rally? AWESOME.)
Reba you have given people a way to deal with griefing in a sensible way that works :)
I think of griefing when I was home crushing ore and waiting for a friend to come over so when the door knocked it didn't show who was at door. I allowed that person in GRIM REAPER who ran through my house and stoled everything he possible could. I couldn't see what was happening until ore crushing was finished. I caught up with him and kicked him out. When I realized my piggy feeder and meat collector were gone I made a bug report and was told it wasn't a bug I had been robbed.
GRIM REAPER is a griefer and he is going to cause a lot more grief for us all. Just want to warn everyone they are amongst us.
Thanks jasbo! :) And xoxJulie! The idea of griefing obviously concerns me, in an "oooh, I don't like that" kind of way. Thanks for the friend invitations.
Which brings up another point: griefing may bring some of us friends we wouldn't have otherwise, so perhaps a silver lining. :-P
And I *did* start the Good Vibe Group. But I decided that it should be for anyone who wants to spread good vibes in Ur, or for anyone who needs good vibes, regardless of whether the reason is because they've been griefed. Let's say someone has a bad day at work before they arrived in Ur and just needs a hug, then let the Good Vibe Group know and we'll be on it like a bonnet. :-)
@ Reba. Wow, who knew my one small contribution to this discussion would involve such a detailed solution. I've never had things stolen from my bag, or my house broken into, artwork destroyed, or any of the other things mentioned. And I am certainly not campaigning for a donated computer. (not sure how that came about). I will buy a new one in due time,unfortunately RL medical bills take precedence at the moment. As I stated earlier, "life is really too short to spend it responding to such silliness". But "Good Vibes" and warm thoughts are always welcome. :)
@Ramona - I am currently dealing with a serious medical issue myself, which is one reason I have so much time to play Glitch! (Silver Lining) So I completely understand having a budget. I don't have half the money I used to due to this thing I'm dealing with...! I know you never requested a donated computer, but that's the best I could come up with when I was thinking of a way to solve your problem and was certainly off the cuff. (I hope you're not offended by it.) I know some people have to prioritize the money they have to spend and assumed you would have already purchased a new computer if you could have. I just know that some other people hang onto older computers once they buy newer ones, and even though they are old to some they would be an upgrade for others so I just wanted to put it out there in the Universe, just in case it *could* become a reality. I also tend to think you're not the only glitchen dealing with using an obsolete or underpowered computer, so I was thinking of the needs of the many.
Augustus has the attitude we need to play this game. Where someone brought a large part of the game to a flying stop or one faction could control another, the devs made changes to get the situation closer to balanced. There isn't much point in reporting the rest cuz nothing will happen. "Watch your open inventory spaces more closely." "Why'd you do that in a public place?!" etc.
From the Terms of Service (link at the bottom of every page):
"Unwelcome Content and Conduct: You agree not to:
post, email or otherwise transmit any content, or use the API in connection with any Licensee Application or content, that (i) is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, excessively violent, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, pornographic, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, racially hateful, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;…" (Emphasis added)
It slipped my mind to say that some things are reportable like flooding Live Help chat. Generally, griefing falls short of what that means by "threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious."
"I'm gonna take any gems you drop, stupidhead!!! *yoink* I drink your milkshake!" has a threat, abuse, and harassment, but it's not "I'm gonna trace your IP address, hack into your server, find where you live, and wait for you to come outside you worthless blahblahblah... you should die..."
Just so we're all clear on what that word means:
"a wrongful act, not including a breach of contract or trust, that results in injury to another's person, property, reputation, or the like, and for which the injured party is entitled to compensation."
If someone steals your gems then they are in breach of the ToS. Will anything be done about it? Probably not. But if they follow you around disrupting your gameplay, and stealing your stuff, then yeah, they should be reported.
The TOS is talking about tort in the real life, courtroom sense. Someone following me around all day and yoinking dead trees doesn't rate a lawsuit. If it happened because of an imbalance in the game, that's definitely reportable in order to get it in better balance. If you were here for the lumber drama, that's what happened. It was a massive interrupt for players. The devs worked to get digging/tending/harvesting/hatcheting in better balance and that was it.
I came into this topic thinking that griefing was was an all-purpose term for splanking, garlic kisses, and mooning, which are all activities given to us by the game. Now I see that there is a far more serious problem going on - too many of the players are whiny little crybabies.
Seriously - somebody picked up a few of your dropped beans? They are following you around? Harvesting from the same tree? Making you sneeze? Am I supposed to be horrified on your behalf?
Allow me to play a few notes on my teeny weeny violin...
For what it's worth, you can't tell people to GTFO or else you'll get thrown in time out.
Rascalmom, what happened to you in Ix sounds vaguely familiar. I've tried asking Gassers nicely not to poison my trees. Needless to say that doesn't work. I had to take to more defensive measures.
Also, Spice won Ix because Gas is in Besara. There's no reason to plant Gas in Ix. I even helped plant Gas in Besara and I left notes and teleport scripts in Ix for the Gassers.
IIRC, someone on Glitch described griefing as the equivalent of rape. I didn't agree with that at all. I consider it just teasing/messing with people. That's what I meant in that quote, too, WindBorn. In my mind, the worst griefing I ever experienced was on FFXI and these guys had walled off the residential area. SE ended up changing the game physics so that couldn't happen again. It was a real pita at the time, but it wasn't like rape at all. So, I'm with the group of people that believe griefing can range wildly in severity.
"spice won"???
There wasn't a war, and there's still plenty of gas in Ix. No one should be forced to travel to Besara when gas is easily available in Ix.
"spice won"???
There wasn't a war, and there's still plenty of gas in Ix. No one should be forced to travel to Besara when gas is easily available in Ix.
Calling it a war was done by others, not me. I just prefer Spice in Ix. Ix seems to be a Dune reference to me. And the spice must flow.
Now that there is plenty of Gas... err that there was? Idk. Either way, set your teleport bind to Besara instead of Ix? Distance doesn't matter. Why replant Ix with Gas if there is plenty of uninhibited Gas elsewhere?
@Jewel Stoned, Sorry your are not empathetic to the situation discussed.
Griefing take's fun away from the game. Kissing, mooning, splanking are part of the game and are meant to be fun! And I like garlic kiss's, it helps my friends complete their quests!
The other day I was traveling and came across Mr. Dawgg who had purchased several D12 dice and was rolling them as quickly as he could, it would seem. About 1/second, I would guess.
He brought in rook attacks multiple times. I asked him not to do this, and he just asked me why not. I explained to him, much in the fashion of a pre-school teacher telling a child why it's rude to bite classmates, that it was inconsiderate and rude. Everything was dying.
He said he was doing it because he thought rook attacks were neat.He liked how the screen would turn red. (But I like when my classmates bleed, teacher! Things turn red!)
When I asked him why he wouldn't do this in his own home so as not to mess with the public property, he said "Well, I don't want to wreck my house!"
Mr. Dawgg needs our help. He is seeking gratification, recognition. Perhaps some devotion here will prevent future issues... some cry out for help.
Glitch offers a cyber way to say, " look at me."
Try a little tolerance... Consider the source
the game is a challenge. Do you want your game SUGAR COATED
or raw? I say I will take the raw version.
@BitStranger - Griefing, definitely. I was thinking about how much griefing he was going to get after his ranting and I honestly started to feel bad for the bugger. Finding that he's a griefer now fully explains his troll thread and makes me not care one way or another what kind of problems he has when the game goes up again.
@Lilac - Agreed. He is actually useful in that he is a demonstration of the sort of jerks we are to expect when things go public. Expect more Mr. Dawgg's shortly.
Well, this debate isn't going to end until TS puts the actual word "griefing" into the ToS. So, that's the stance I'm going to take on it. I'm not saying they should (after all, what IS the legal term for "griefing" if not what they already have in there), there simply will be no resolution to the matter until that happens.
GOD, the Giants, even the great Stoot himself could come down from their Glitchy heights and bestow upon this thread their greatest wisdom, the obvious answer, that "Griefing is not allowed" and there would still be people in this thread asking how much griefing they could do before getting banned.
@Bashere - Is that *you* doing that? I've seen those rocks! And I've mined them down to nothing so they will regenerate for the next glitchling. :-D Bwahahahaha!
Griefing is so grey, cuz there are perfectly legit things to do that will mess up other perfectly legit things to do. They built the game to have conflict. Yoinkers have been around since the GNE days, so that's gotta be here to stay. I don't see how or why a ban would happen, especially when they didn't with a blatant instance already. As I read Tiny Speck, they'll only react by adjusting the game where it needs it and won't when they're fine with what happened.
I always thought griefing simply meant expressing grief or dissatisfaction. If so, then no, there is nothing wrong with that. TROLLING is when you're harassing others just for the sake of it. Though I do not agree with it and find it blatantly annoying, I can simply block the person (in-game, of course) and that should be the end of it. But if they were to somehow follow me around and name all of the animals "CERULEAN IS A CUNTFACE" then I'd take it to the Staff.
If you build a game for interaction, you're going to get conflict. I think it's not possible to come up with rules or an arbitration system that eliminates that. That doesn't mean TS can't and won't take action when someone goes too far. I don't work for TS or speak for them, but I think this is a pretty sound assumption. What's too far? Can't be completely defined. The line is partly invisible. So take care.
Keep in mind that you may be smart, but there's usually someone smarter. You may be strong, but there's usually someone stronger. You may be big, but a lot of little people can get together and tie you down. You may not be as anonymous as you think. Etc.
Also keep in mind that it can be difficult to know the intention behind an act. If, seeing my husband eyeing the last cookie on a plate, I grab it and grin at him, it's an affirmation of our bond (especially since we'll most likely end up sharing the cookie). If I do the same thing to a complete stranger, it may indicate that I'm a bit mental or a social moron -- though context is everything. It may be a way of saying "I'd like to get to know you" -- and it will either work, or I'll have to make amends and back off. I'm a bit more reserved than that myself, but it's the kind of thing I might do if I was trying to signal comradship to, say, one of my younger nieces or nephews.
I don't know if this a good/implementable idea or not, but perhaps if there was some sort of "fame" "+1" etc, system we could do with players. If someone does something kind or thoughtful for someone, that person would be able to give them a +1. If someone was "griefing" another person they would be able to give them a -1. It would be a way to for the players to somewhat police ourselves as well as giving us an idea of who we're interacting with.
For example, seeing someone has a -31 reputation I might be hesitant to invite them into my home as opposed to someone who has +31.
In order to make people less able to abuse it obviously limits would have to be put like only letting us do 1 vote per person so I can't follow around Person Z and constantly defame him.
Interesting that you left out the fact that after you asked me to stop, I went to a different zone. You kept following me around telling me not to summon the rook. Every time I swapped zones to get away from you, you kept following me and harassing me. I was just experimenting with the rook to see what it did. A lot of people have done what I have done. The end conclusion that I and others came to was that the 'mini rook attacks' were pointless and had no effect on anything.
One of the general characteristics of the Internet, particularly within games, is that there is almost no form of enforcement that can be implemented by the community that has any effect on a griefer at all. Any form of shaming or shunning is usually worn as a badge of honor by the type of person that enjoys doing these things. Trying to grief them back simply increases the degree and amount of conflict within the community. Even someone who causes enough problems to get attention from the TS Staff can probably get a new account if they are banned.
Frequently griefers see it as a *good* thing to be acting out against anything they view as authority or convention. Or they specifically see the Internet as a steam valve where they can let loose with behavior that they could not get away with in Real Life without serious consequences. So they will demand their "right" to do anything that the system does not prevent them from doing. And just as we see with our top-heavy legal system, it is not possible to put enough laws (or code) in place to prevent people from finding loopholes through which to be greedy or cruel.
So there's really nothing at all to be done except find people to interact with who have like-minded ideas about politeness, communicate with other players to avoid misunderstandings, and report to the TS Staff any legitimate instances of harassment.
"You agree not to: ... post, email or otherwise transmit any content, or use the API in connection with any Licensee Application or content, that ... in the sole judgment of Tiny Speck ... restricts or inhibits any other person from using or enjoying the Service."
That seems to me to be a clear answer to the question of whether griefing violates the ToS. It does, if in the sole judgement of Tiny Speck it restricts or inhibits any other person from enjoying the service. Otherwise it doesn't.
For one thing that means that it makes sense to report it as a possible violation of the ToS.
Apart from that, as I see it, deliberately treating anyone cruelly, for any reason, and accepting any excuse from anyone for doing so, helps perpetuate *all* kind of abuse against *all* kinds of people, including child abuse and abuse of minorities. Nothing can ever make it right, regardless of how comfortable we can feel with casting the object of the abuse as a villain.
Also, as I see it, abuse is not something that will go away if you just ignore it. It thrives on people ignoring it and denying it.
Of course, if a person denies any hurtful intentions, we can't be sure he has any, no matter how it might look. I'm sure we've all experienced people around us being convinced we had harmful intentions when we didn't. What I'm talking about is cases where a person openly admits that she has unfriendly intentions.
I like very much Reba's suggestions about comforting people who have been treated cruelly. That doesn't require knowing anything about the intentions of the people who have hurt them. I see that as the best place to start.
ETA: I see another issue here, but I don't know if it's been happening in the game. Maligning people, or talking to them or about them mockingly or contemptuously, has poisonous effects on everyone around, including the spectators and the person who does it, and in my view doing that, and accepting excuses from others for doing it, also helps perpetuate all kinds of abuse of all kinds of people. Again, regardless of how comfortable we can feel with casting the object of the abuse as a villain.
I'm not sure about a voting system for griefers. As some of you know, I started a group "La Resistance" for fun, for some mischief and a way to be a bit rebellious and not be always the sweet,nice, ribbon & lace pinkdressed cute girl with sugar on top. (Yeah I sort of walk around like that sometimes, all in pink in my tutu with a cupcake on my head...) Some people reacted quite serious to it, while it was purely intended for fun, and in no way can that group change the whole of Ur. Maybe occasionally we might plan a surprise, just to keep everyone on edge and give the gossipers something to gossip about, but changing a tree or 2 in a street to another tree is imo not griefing. Exterminating an entire species of trees is (so woe you who harvest all the woodtrees! They have every right to grow too!). I found it unpleasant to hear that people would administer antidote to every tree we would poison and were fiercely against killing trees.
Anyway, it's a lot in the eye of the beholder, and as I said before I hope people consider *first* the positive reasons for someone acting the way they do. Don't assume something negative and try to communicate first. If that doesn't help, ask for a high-level for help to give the griefer a good splanking. (Though I hope the "helper" tries reasoning with the so-called griefer first, as a misunderstanding is easily created.)
Miriamele, my ideas about responding to mistreatment do not include any counter-attack against the person who is doing it. What I promote includes comforting the person who is being mistreated, helping her navigate through it, letting him know that I think what's happening to her is wrong, trying to negotiate a change in the other person's behavior, and reporting the incident if I think it might interest administrators. It also includes trying to promote more awareness of abuse and what to do about it, in the community.
@Reba: You said if anyone needs encouragement, to contact the Good Vibe Group, but I don't see how anyone who is not a member can do that, unless we add the members to our friend list. Is that what you meant?