Topic

Play vs. guilt

When one player objected to the term "play," Trav replied:
"Don't feel guilty or bad calling it 'play'. If you need further incentive... stoot put me on to this book.
The Grashopper: Games, Life and Utopia by Bernard Suits."

This has got me thinking. The brainkick we get from MMORPGs is undeniable, and being able to access that endorphin rush via a nonviolent, beautiful world like Glitch has been both a blessing and a curse in my world.

I'm of two minds about my Glitch addiction... I'm hoping that the scarcity is feeding the mad desire I have to play, and that when it goes 24/7, I'll dive in for a while and then be able to find balance with my RL activities. But I'm also worried about that intense desire, and wrestling with guilt over the lack of other things I don't get done on game days.

Is it possible to be as immersed in a world as a game like Glitch impels us to be, and still have a life of creativity, service, and balance? Did people worry about this kind of thing when the printing press made books cheap and available? Is there a chance that running around getting little endorphin jolts is actually good for our brains (like the theory that working crosswords helps ward off dementia), or is it the mental equivalent of candy? Am I just looking for a justification to wallow in a lazy source of joyjuice instead of doing the real-life work that needs to be done, or can fulfillment be found online?

On my deathbed, will I wish I'd logged off more and spent this time with my kids, making my own art, exploring my own world?

How do you folks deal with these questions? Am I just agonizing over nothing?

Posted 18 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • stoot has just linked this amazing slideshow in the Glitch twitter stream
    www.slideshare.net/dings/do...

    View full screen to get all the commentary.  Very powerful commentary.
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You should really go read the first few chapters of that book. The premise is the Grasshopper in Aesop's Fables actually had merit in arguing his life was indeed fulfilling, as he dedicated his life to the most fulfilling activity - play... and that he'd accepted the 'rules' of the game (aka death at the winter). It goes on to take a very interesting look at the nature of games, what a game is and isn't, when it ceases to be a game, and the games people will create if given the right settings and void.

    As a decades long gamer, I can say yes - a balance does exist. I go through phases where I may go overboard and impose certain restrictions upon myself until my life is back in balance. Some would argue I spend too much time here... but I still have a job, go to school, take care of my step-son during the weekdays, attend karate, yoga, and dance at least twice a week. "Games" in general, get fit in and around all that. I might forego the weekly 'night out' in favor of playing Glitch... Glitch is cheaper than drinks, and it's exchanging one form of leisure for another.
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • that slideshow is good, but way too deep for me at 7:30 in the morning. especially since I have a game in the background.

    I am also of two minds about addiction to Glitch:
    1) anything taken to excess can be bad for you. It is important to take breaks from things (especially games) to mix things up and keep up a healthy lifestyle (do as I say, not as I do :P )
    2) Personally, the thrill of Glitch is the waiting for it to open and the relatively small windows of gameplay.For me, it's kinda like my favorite tv shows. I will get excited if a marathon comes on, but if they were on all the time, I wouldn't watch 24/7, although I would be glad to have the option of watching them whenever I wanted. For me, the same idea applies here.

    Is it possible to have balance? that depends on what kind of person you are. Tendency toward addiction runs in my family. I struggled with smoking for 5 years, being a pack a day smoker for most of it. So it's natural for me to dive head first into something that gives me a rush of endorphins, and do that activity all day, everyday.

    Good or Bad: again, depends on how well you handle potentially addictive substances. I like to think that Glitch is a positive force, causing you to want to learn and exercise creativity, both of which can help immensely later on. And I think you are right- balance will come. The deathbed question is up to you, but from the sound of it, that won't be an issue.

    These are good questions that remind us not to forget we have lives and responsibilities outside of Glitch. Most of us shirk those things during testing, but I believe we will settle down once the game goes live.
    Posted 18 months ago by bored no more Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lilith, I share your concerns about the amount of time I spend playing on-line. In the past when I was totally addicted to Faunasphere I spent every possible moment playing the game. When it was announced the game was closing I was devastated and couldn't even bring myself to play out the last month. I know that my physical health suffered from the amount of time I spent sitting in front of the screen for 2 years.

    I believe I now have more balance between gaming and RL but then I only recently started playing Glitch and already am hooked. Thank goodness it isn't up and running 24/7 yet but I am anxiously looking forward to when it is.  I am madly getting the house back into shape so that I will have free time later on.

    The two things that will save me from loosing touch with reality are my wonderful grandsons. In September when my daughter finishes maternity leave they will fill my days with hugs, kisses, laughter, play and creativity. I wouldn't miss a moment of that sweet joy but I also won't feel guilty when it is time for me to "play". 
    Posted 18 months ago by Breezy Meadow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That slide show was fully worth viewing. Made a lot of sense. The t(p) part will be interesting. I wonder how long 'till that makes its way in to Glitch lol

    I don't feel guilt about play. I work hard, I play harder.  Real life is only fun for me if I can get away from it now and again. By spending time on addictive games, I find that my return to reality lets me appreciate it more. Like anything in life, if you do too much of it, you stop appreciating it. 
    Once this site opens fully, I'll no doubt get complacent about Glitch, and find myself spending less time here. Same as I've done with every other game I've been addicted to over the years, but now, while it's new and shiny and hard to reach... I want it more and more. 
    It's like a virtual drug.  I can't afford a real life drug habit, and I'm under the firm belief that everyone needs a vice or two, so internet is my crack. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I got 40 pages into that slideshow before my family started waking up and needing attention. But it is fascinating and I'll definitely finish it later. I've got that book on order from the library, too.

    Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I was nervous about posting this here, afraid I'd be pissing in everyone's cornflakes... but now I have an even higher regard for my fellow Glitches. You've all given me some context and ideas to chew on.

    At least now I have something to do until the next test period!
    Posted 18 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the important thing is this. What does your glitch time replace? What would you be doing if you weren't playing Glitch? For me, it replaces my tv watching time in the evenings after the kids have gone to bed. I feel like that's a good trade-off, I'm not missing much. So, it depends on what are you missing out on when you're playing Glitch?
    Posted 18 months ago by FrankenPaula Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I definitely think it is about the unavailable nature of the game right now. The last MMO I played, which was on 24/7 except occasional one-hour downtimes, I loved, but I mainly played like FrankenPaula: in lieu of TV after things had settled down for the evening. Once Glitch is open all the time, I'll settle into a better balance. I'm a little off-balance right now because, as Ebil says, it's all new and shiny (especially Ajaya Bliss ;) . But I still work hard, do my therapy with my son, etc. A bit less than usual right now; however, I know this time period will end, and I'm okay with having a couple months where I'm more engrossed because I know I'll simmer down when it opens. Cheers, Lillith; this is a great thread and everyone's comments really resonate with me in one way or another!
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "On my deathbed, will I wish I'd logged off more and spent this time with my kids, making my own art, exploring my own world?"

    Only if upon your deathbed, your kids aren't there to see you on and your room is devoid of art and tchotchkes. And even then, maybe not! 

    Lilith, I see you are level 19...you've only got one good level left and then you are on the path of diminishing returns in Glitch!  So don't fret, because your Glitch experience is about to start changing anyway...at least, it is based on the commentary in this thread. Um, not all of which I agree with.

    @Windborn, thanks for that link, very interesting presentation.  I don't know if I would classify Glitch as a game that can teach me to find my inner hero and then apply those hero skillz to my life, as least, not as it is now anyway...it's more like a mellow cruise down the river Lethe. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I posted this in the 'addiction' thread, but I recently came across this really interesting article about how Farmville is so successful because of the sunk cost fallacy, or the perception that losing something (i.e., time, money) feels more painful than an equivalent gain.

    youarenotsosmart.com/2011/0...

    Here's a quote from the article:

    "You continue to play Farmville not to have fun, but to avoid negative emotions. It isn’t the crop you are harvesting, but your fallacies. You return and click to patch cracks in a dam holding back something icky in your mind – the sense you wasted something you can never get back."

    So this might be a question to consider for yourself, about where the enjoyment is coming from that you're getting out of Glitch. Personally, I don't find any of the sunk cost fallacy business in Glitch, but I can imagine if you were really invested in keeping the trees or animals in your house alive, you might feel this way.

    I think the scarcity of playtime right now has a huge factor in the draw of the game right now. Sometimes I find myself feeling that when the world is open, I am not only testing game mechanics but my ability to step away from the computer once in a while. :)
    Posted 18 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • wow, thank you for sharing that slideshow. i loved it- so much to think about in how we approach life.
    Posted 18 months ago by greenkozi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As a mental health therapist, I can tell you there is definitely the possibility of utilizing Glitch as an unhealthy form of coping and procrastination. However, I can also tell you that this is not always (or even usually) the case, and that it takes A LOT of factors, primarily in your personal situation, to really let Glitch become a problem of that sort...
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, I'm up to page 90 of that slideshow, and I am brimming with excited validation... a LOT of what he has to say about internal vs. external motivations are exactly why my family chose to homeschool... and why each of my children began college in their early teens. This is really mindblowing. Looking back at my Glitch (and Animal Crossing, and Okami, etc.) experiences, I'm seriously impressed by their ability to land in the "flow" regions (and I see that my continued struggle with some games threw me too far into "anxiety," and then they were abandoned). Great stuff, thank you!
    Posted 18 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink
  • katzlakam, the sunk-cost principle was always really interesting to me when I studied psychology, and from what I remember what you've described is essentially true, though not the whole story. From what I remember, the sunk-cost principle is about making some sort of investment (such as time or energy or money) into something that is likely to fail in the hope (here is the fallacy) that doing so can somehow save this "sinking ship." In essence, it is true that this is about an aversion to accepting loss, cutting your losses and moving forward, but there's still an element of hope that is important to consider. Hope that the efforts you're putting forward will make a difference.

    I do agree with you that it does not seem that the sunk-cost principle applies here because I doubt most people that invest time, energy and money into Glitch subconsciously feel it may fail. I know that a lot of people are afraid it will, especially if they are from Faunasphere, but I think that most people also see that Glitch is gaining great but steady momentum and it's not part of a bubble that's likely to burst or collapse.

    There are also several other elements to consider which people have already touched upon, both in this threads and others outside of it. There's the element of escapism, in which individuals envelope themselves in the game in order to avoid their own reality which they have difficulty coping with. There's an element of accomplishment, in which individuals feel they're building something tangible in the game and actually accomplishing something (the fact as to whether or not this is actually the case is an entirely separate and controversial discussion). And so much more!

    Also, something that is very important for people to remember about addiciton specifically is that there are two types of addiction: chemical, and psychological. Glitch absolutely cannot be compared to drugs, as drugs are primarily a chemical addiction and very often a psychological addiction as well. Playing a game and becoming addicted is much more a psychological addiction, though it can be argued that there is a secondary chemical effect due to the hormones produced in our minds and bodies when we experience elevated moods caused by playing the games. Endorphines, serotonin, etc.
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The sunk-cost principle does not require that you believe that your efforts could make a difference.

    It only requires that you previously have used resources to reach the goal.   Read the linked article for a fuller explanation.
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't know if that's necessarily true. If it were, people would not commit those actions. Even if they were in an erratic or irrational state of mind.

    EDIT: Windborn -- "It only requires that you previously have used resources to reach the goal." In what way? The sunk-cost principle isn't a review of a situation's history... as I'm understanding it from that statement.
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As for the linked article, that's the other issue -- one article might not explain the phenomenon accurately or correctly. I studied human psychology and mental health at university for 6 years, so I'm taking my understanding of the concept from more of a meta-analytical perspective. This is also why I earlier expressed concern that the whole story was not being told.
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 'sunk-cost" is an econometric term for the amount of resources that you have put into a project that cannot be recovered if the project does not go forward. Because economists also look at human behavior, they sometimes assess things from a somewhat different standpoint than psychologists and sociologists.

    Sunk costs have nothing to do with the future of the project or your involvement.  They only have to do with the resources that you have already used up that you cannot retrieve.

    If a company is considering whether or not to go forward on a project, advocates will often talk about the sunk costs in an effort to emotionally manipulate the decision.  Financial analysts will only present the future costs, and/or the amount that can be retrieved by selling assets.
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No more... less guilt... go play!
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • devs can give shout outs to presentations and name drop books and poke fun at farmville in game all they want, but if glitch doesn't walk the walk and instead trades on hope, sunk costs and addiction then it is all meaningless.

    happy test day everybody! : ] : ] : ]
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Windborn -- I think that's where the discrepancy lies. You're speaking from an economical perspective (though considering human behavior), while I'm speaking from a behavioral standpoint (though considering "emotional economy," if you will). :P I do think the two perspectives are significantly different.
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sunk cost is usually measured in time and/or money.  Is there a psychological  measure for emotions that you calculate  in your version of 'sunk cost'?   How do you compare the cost of various alternatives? 
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Like I said before, in psychology, the sunk-cost principle is not necessarily quantifiable but is defined by investing things that may be quantifiable (such as time and money) and other things less so (such as energy and emotionality) into situations that are likely to fail though there is a hope that the efforts to change the situation will be effective. Examples of this include economical situations such as continuing to pay mechanics to repair a car that is falling apart more quickly than can reasonably be fixed, or emotional situations such as continuing to court someone who is unattainable (for example, as a gay man, if I developed a crush on a straight man, continuing to court him and try to ask him out would be futile [most likely] but a lot of gay men happen to do this in the hopes that they can somehow change the subject of their affection).
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @katlazam - that article is fantastic and interesting, thanks!
    Posted 18 months ago by mirth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In my opinion, I only have one life, and I've done all the "living for other's" stuff when I was younger, now I think I deserve a bit of me time, and for me that's sitting here playing Glitch. I don't even try to justify it, it makes me happy therefore it's worthwhile. What would the alternative be? Vegging in front of the telly? And that's not a waste of time?

    My kids roll their eyes at me and my husband is frankly jealous of the pc. But I'm sure they know living with a happy me is much better than living with a bitter and resentful me.

    In fact if you look at it that way I'm doing them all a favour!
    Posted 18 months ago by Momo McGlitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think there is this notion that an alternative may be doing something "productive," which I have previously stated is a controversial idea because "productive" is such a subjective term. For me, I love playing games, including Glitch, but I know that I probably should be busy losing weight so that I can find a boyfriend. Or just to be healthy. :P

    But that doesn't mean (in my opinion) that I can say others playing the game is a waste of productive energy. It's all so subjective and really based on individual situations. If I naturally looked like Matthew Goode and had one of those natural metabolisms where I could eat everything in sight and not get fat, well, then it really wouldn't be so problematic IN MY PERSONAL SITUATION for me to sit here playing games all day.
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "What would the alternative be? Vegging in front of the telly? And that's not a waste of time?"

    compared to mindlessly clicking a rock for a few hours on end?

    yes. you might actually learn something from the television show.

    *shock*

    you aren't learning a damn thing from clicking a virtual rock.

    if your husband is jealous of the PC, that's a problem. you're just transferring your bitterness and resentment over to him.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic, how do you know what she's doing in the game? Have you been watching her play a lot?

    And even if you were a careful observer of her home life, without some insight into Heathermomo's consciousness that defies in-built epistemological limits, how would you know what emotions are being transferred and to whom?

    If you want to play armchair psychologist, that's fine. But you don't need to do it in a way that's insultingly presumptuous.
    Posted 18 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the first point wasn't meant to be related to her personal play style, but to the comparison between glitch and television.

    the point is that glitch, at its worst, can be as "vegging" as television - and more specifically that watching television is not *necessarily* a waste of time.

    i am attempting to address stock response of "at least i'm not watching television!" and point out that this is not necessarily a great comparison.

    as for the second point, well, you are correct stoot.

    jealousy does not *necessarily* lead to resentment.

    i have never personally encountered a situation where jealousy didn't lead to resentment, but i will admit that there may indeed be cases where jealousy does not lead to resentment.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink