Topic

All may plant, all may harvest

Can the sign be taken down please?
I was in the herb gardens today, planting all of my seeds. Then someone just walked right up to the plots I was standing over and took all my herbs, when I asked for my herbs back, she responded with,"free to plant, free to take." Then, she teleported.

Can the signs PLEASE, be taken down? I just have lost all of my herbs and this might continue to be a problem.

Posted 12 months ago by feifei Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I think the point that I just keep sticking on is this: we can't all come together and decide to make community herb gardens the ideal community herb gardens we'd all like. That is not actually an option on the table. It isn't. Seriously. No one person, or even group of people, no matter how large, can decide from here on out that community herb gardens will be the way they "we" want them to be.

    Acting as though it is possible, and we can all communally decide that's how it will be from now on, and then it will actually be that way only enhances the indignation people feel when jerks--who are actually allowed to perform jerk-like actions in game (unless it infringes on player-to-player ooc abuse)--are jerks.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pomegrandy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I live in a crops area. Today I went to a community herb garden for the first time and planted my first herb seed, which I found in a dust trap. I fertilized it with guano I got by feeding meat that I nibbled off a piggy to a batterfly. Then I stood there in front of it for a while. I was still standing in front of it at midnight, when it became harvestable, and while I was clicking "Onward and Upward!" someone stole it from right behind me and ran off and left the street.

    I complained about it in local chat and everyone was awesome, and a kind soul actually gave me an herb of the sort I'd planted! My faith in the game and in most players is more than intact. I planted and fertilized several more plots in exchange, and went on my way. 
    I think it's worth talking about in the forum for this reason:

    By not intervening to prevent people from being thieves in this instance, the devs are granting us a certain type of freedom. We are free to have an ethical discourse among ourselves about what we collectively should or should not do. There are two responses to this situation that make players seem unworthy of this freedom: first, those who ask the devs to intervene to make theft impossible; and second, those who say that there is no point talking about how players shouldn't steal, because it is possible to steal. 

    This very much gets to the core of why anyone would want to play a multiplayer game... does it matter to you that there are people behind the other avatars on the street, making conscious decisions, with whom you are interacting?
    Posted 12 months ago by ruptures Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ruptures, I think I love you.
    Posted 12 months ago by Sloppy Ketchup Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think if the herb seeds were purchasable from Gardening Spirits then it might make the problems are lot easier to handle. Because they ONLY way to get seeds is from shucking (and half the time you either destroy the herb or you just get 1 seed, which is absolutely ridiculous mathematically) people are stuck in a cycle where the auction house rules the market and therefore the 'evil' glitches run the auction house.

    If you purchased a seed from a Spirit for 20c and someone else harvested it, well, you've lost 20c and yes you have to do it again but you haven't lost anywhere from 200-1000c because of a drive-by thief.

    But I think a lot of the anger is coming from the high cost of the seeds and then you have to sit and watch like a hawk and still you might lose your harvest. Cheap seeds will also allow people to plant and then leave and not care if someone else harvests - much the way the Community Gardens work (despite this I am now seeing a lot more empty plots after the signs went up). I still go and plant a bunch of things in Community Gardens and never come back for them. It's cheap and it might help someone else. If it helps an 'evil' glitch, what do I care. I don't know who it is and it cost me very little - coins which I can make back by collecting the floating coins, or just selling the harvest from two nibbles of a piggy.

    But I doubt we will ever buy herb seeds from a Spirit. I'm fairly certain the Spirits are all going to go away - they started it with the Tree Poison and Antidote, and I don't think it will stop. That's fine, because I like the idea of having to work for stuff, but right now, as a stop-gap to either everyone having access to a herb plot in the new houses, or something else to balance the demand for herbs in potions and tinctures, I don't see why we can't buy the seeds from a Spirit.

    /long rambly reply
    Posted 12 months ago by Bexatious Subscriber! | Permalink
  • oh Gods Bex I really really hope you are wrong and they don't take away the crop seeds.
    Instead I hope they take the suggestion, as it's been made many many times before, to sell HERB seeds at vendors as well.  It doesn't make sense to do it any other way really and I don't know why they've not, yet.  Unless this is part of a big social experiment and we're all guinea pigs and they're charting and recording our moves and discussions on this topic for a thesis ;)
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • at least, that is, I hope they won't take the crop seeds away from vendors until there is an easier way to get seeds en masse from plops.  Right now it is so incredibly mind-numbingly tedious and slow to go through the process of feed>examine>pick up for crop seeds from piggies.  x_x  Hate it....
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am expecting that crop seeds and produce will be removed from vendors. I really won't be surprised when this happens.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Miso As far as we know, they plan on slowly phasing out the vendors all together, as things become more stable. They've already gotten rid of the better tools, seasoned eggs, tree poisons & antidotes, etc. I don't think that trend is going to stop there. I'm guessing once they work out the kinks of the marketplace system they've been working on and having us test, the vendors will go.
    Posted 12 months ago by Rev. Desdemona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not necessarily all vendors. In the past they mentioned they'd keep a sparse few and have them in stores, like Uncle Friendly, but were going to be getting rid of the spirit vendors on the streets (this was some time ago when I first started playing that I read this).

    At any rate, I don't recall anything being said about completely getting rid of all vendors; they've not made it very clear whether through their shift to a more player-run economy that they'd still keep the store vendor idea or get rid of them all.

    I do hope that before they get rid of crop seeds, if they do, that they give us a much better way of making them ourselves; it really seems like they should. If I could feed a pig 30 of something and get 10 packets of seeds (or rather 10 plops), it'd be awesome. It is nice we can at least choose 3 at a time now.. but it is still kinda painful.
    Posted 12 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Black Francis - buy your herbs at auction!  If you are working your own crop plots properly, you should have plenty of money, and if you don't have a lot of money, maybe tinctures and potions aren't the best use of your time. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Jewel Stoned Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the signs have given a lot of jerks a chance to say, "I told you so, nya nya nya" and have made a lot of people who want to "play nice" feel unwanted in the game.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 WindBorn! This is exactly how I feel.  It seems to me that these signs do nothing but give the griefers the impression that the devs support their ruthless style of playing.  Whether or not that's the case, I don't know.  But it certainly makes me question my initial impression of Ur as a pleasant retreat from the cutthroat real world. And that makes me sad.

    /end sermon
    Posted 12 months ago by Aurora Dellaterra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the signs have given a lot of jerks a chance to say, "I told you so, nya nya nya" and have made a lot of people who want to "play nice" feel unwanted in the game.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If people want to judge the community as a whole based on a few griefers, who am I to stand in the way of outrage?
    Posted 12 months ago by Malus Agricola Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, nope.  I still don't see it as private property.  It was private up until the moment it was placed in a public plot that is now clearly and repeatedly labelled as public.  

    We didn't see these complaints when few "camped" community gardens and most just harvested and planted on the fly.  

    Once again, it is the expectation of privacy and exclusivity that is the only problem here, as it is an unreasonable expectation.  Niceness has nothing to do with it.  I feel no differently about people whining that their publicly planted herbs have been publicly harvested than I do when someone gets upset with me for petting and watering their publicly planted tree that they wanted to raise themselves.   Your expectation is unreasonable.  Your assumption that I understand why you are standing there is unreasonable.  

    And to me it just keeps coming back to one thing: there is no compelling, overwhelming reason why any given Glitch has to have herbs.   If you feel you must in order to be fashionable, then buy a bog house.  Otherwise, make occasional runs through the public gardens and harvest what's available while planting what you can.  Such is how the community gardens are intended to be used, and if there was any doubt, the signs are there to remind you.  

    As for the ridiculous number of multiple posts from multiple users in this thread: show some patience.  Sometimes when you hit post reply there will be a delay, for whatever reason.  Open another tab with the thread in it and you will likely see your post before the original page finishes loading.  It's not a bad idea to check before you hit post reply again.  
    Posted 12 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've been a swamp dweller for quite awhile now and I used to grow herbs before they were popular. It's fun to trip on purple, to speed up learning, to walk faster, to feel luckier. Back then, the people who seemed to use the community gardens the most were the locals. You'd grow the bulk of your herbs in your own plots, then take extra seeds to the community gardens, where you'd pick flowers for seeds you didn't have yet. No one was camping plots, because everyone who went there generally already had access to plots at home (or just wanted to get some purple to trip on).

    Plant a seed, get a herb from a seed that someone else planted. A simple pleasant system, and one I'd like to see us get back to. It requires that people not camp plots, and it requires that "thieves" pay into the system. You can't have thieves if you're not camping your plots.

    Don't want to pay auction prices for herbs? Find someone with a swamp house and trade them food or other services for herbs. I don't cook much and I don't enjoy cooking, so I often trade with a friend for food, especially high energy food, in exchange for herbs and potions.
    Posted 12 months ago by Tributary Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Again I say, no no no please don't take away vendors, at least until there's an easier way to get crop seeds.  Like multiple plops from feeding more than 3 items at a time at once even, would be a huge help.  Or getting plops from feeder feeding crops.  Or *something*... just something better than feed 3 > examine > pick up > feed 3 > examine > pick up... holy crap it takes forever to get enough seeds to replant my entire plots.  UGH.
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @miso - and do you know how long it takes to get the smell of piggy plopz out of your gloves?  Forever!  Never mind bringing in the boots, we leave them in the barn.

    This argument has been going on since beta.  Over and over we see the desire by some for an egalitarian socialism when it comes to the community gardens completely defenestrated by the opportunistic and callous. 

    Like many real experiments in communal living, it doesn't work when some are greedy.

    ~~TJ
    Posted 12 months ago by Thaddeus J Fuzzybut Subscriber! | Permalink
  • TJ, if it were just greed I wouldn't mind. But I've seen people doing it just for lulz. You have people saying that they're roleplaying being a thief. OK, I can see people doing that on RPGs where people can strike back ... but doing it here is just frustrating and tiresome.
    Posted 12 months ago by Tanga Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I've seen people doing it just for lulz"   

    I think you are seeing what you want to see.   I go to the gardens and plant stuff just to leave for anyone who wants to harvest it but you don't notice when people do that.  You only notice the *negative* behavior (or behavior that feels negative to you)
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you don't have access to a boghouse, get a friend or family member to sign up and buy a boghouse for him or her.

    This may not be a 100% kosher, but we are encouraged to recruit at least 3 more persons.  Back when my brother (ordered) me to send him an invite, herbs weren't popular, but I recommended to him to get a boghouse because of the plant 5003 herbs badge.

    Now, with the potions badges - it's even more important to find safe place to plant herbs.  The last potions badge is for 1k pots - we're going to need a whole lot of herbs.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • (and half the time you either destroy the herb or you just get 1 seed, which is absolutely ridiculous mathematically) 

    I very, VERY rarely lose seeds when shucking. I can't remember the last time shucking 5 Rubeweed didn't yield 10 seeds.
    Posted 12 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • [dbl post]
    Posted 12 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Of course, Shexycorn, one's shucking return ratio goes up with skill level (and *possibly with experience), so mileage does vary from player to player. 

    The math dictates a somewhat routine 9 for 5 and 11 for 5 return on either side of the probability bell, so it makes sense to me that if someone subscribes to the notion that shucking 1 flower at a time is "the way", they might be shocked by the loss off a seed here and there, especially if they're at a lower level. IMO, it's another benefit of shucking in groups. Losses, when they happen, are less of a blow, even if the lucky gains aren't quite as obvious. .
    Posted 12 months ago by Woochi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • People who steal things and then ransom them for guano or seeds are the absolute worst people
    Posted 12 months ago by Spacemarine9 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've changed my mind.
    I now side with those who say those who plant should be the ones to harvest, and that the thieves really do need to be punished.  I hadn't realised how awful and terrible this sort of thing was, until I experienced it myself along with harassment in the gardens earlier.  It was really terrible and the person treated me really mean after.  =(

    I'm sorry for being on the other side of the fence before.

    Devs please put a system in place to punish the thieves.  Thievery is just not cool.
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sorry to hear you experienced the worse of the worse Miso. Good to know now why so many are unhappy and up in arms about it. Herb seeds, guano and the time involved in growing the herbs are not a cheap thing, and to have someone come and steal them and abuse you along with it is a sad thing.
    Posted 12 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks Casombra.  It's true, now I see the other side of the issue.  =(
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The simple fix is to allow plot tuning. Take a crop plot, tune it with some alchemical compound, and plant the herb. Or take an herb plot, tune it, and plant a crop.
    The community garden griefing is just another tragedy of the commons writ large.
    Plot tuning would allow some normalcy to be restored.
    So I am advocating it.
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Crash that's a brilliant idea! +1
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ruptures
    I live in a crops area. Today I went to a community herb garden for the first time and planted my first herb seed, which I found in a dust trap. I fertilized it with guano I got by feeding meat that I nibbled off a piggy to a batterfly. Then I stood there in front of it for a while. I was still standing in front of it at midnight, when it became harvestable, and while I was clicking "Onward and Upward!" someone stole it from right behind me and ran off and left the street.

    I complained about it in local chat and everyone was awesome, and a kind soul actually gave me an herb of the sort I'd planted! My faith in the game and in most players is more than intact. I planted and fertilized several more plots in exchange, and went on my way. I think it's worth talking about in the forum for this reason:

    By not intervening to prevent people from being thieves in this instance, the devs are granting us a certain type of freedom. We are free to have an ethical discourse among ourselves about what we collectively should or should notdo. There are two responses to this situation that make players seem unworthy of this freedom: first, those who ask the devs to intervene to make theft impossible; and second, those who say that there is no point talking about how players shouldn't steal, because it is possible to steal.

    This very much gets to the core of why anyone would want to play a multiplayer game... does it matter to you that there are people behind the other avatars on the street, making conscious decisions, with whom you are interacting?

    Bravo! Just making sure more people read this post.
    Posted 12 months ago by Ingvar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well maybe we're not worthy of this "freedom" then Ingvar, since people are continuing to steal and make others miserable (real people I'd like to point out, behind these computer screens), and verbally abuse them on top of the theft, making it seem like those who are trying to harvest the crops they've been waiting for are somehow in the wrong.  Maybe the devs should intervene, regardless of what this philosophically means for our freedoms, in order to make the overall gaming experience a more pleasant and enjoyable one for everyone else (the ones who don't want to be mean thieves that is, and make others' lives miserable).

    :: shrugs :: ?
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • .. I don't know, the more I think about it the more I just feel like since the overwhelming majority of people who have been in the community gardens understand that the thievery is bad behaviour and not kind, that eventually a compromise must be reached, I just don't know why the devs aren't listening, or maybe they are and are just waiting it out?  Maybe they'll just wait and see if it corrects itself?  I mean maybe they think it will blow over and stop happening but in the meantime it really does ruin some of the spirit of community that I thought Glitch was supposed to foster.  And like I said before I didn't even understand the issue myself until I felt it first hand so maybe that's what it will take, is one of the developers or main people in Glitch's power structure, experiencing this type of harassment and frustration themselves and then they'll understand, just like I did, and then something will change?
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I usually try keep out of the forum banter, and admit I haven't read this whole thread due its length, but...

    Sorry, I just don't agree with claiming plots. Next thing you know people will start coming to the forums complaining about how so and so took over the entire community area and no one can plant anything.

    If people are stealing your stuff and it upsets you, don't plant in the community gardens, and if it means so much to you to have herbs, buy a house which supports that system.

    Inhibiting others freedom because you want the best of everything isn't fair. Just like you won't walk into a dark alley by yourself in the city, take caution with the gardens. This is a game, and if you're not having fun playing it maybe you should rethink your reasons for playing it.

    It sucks that people are rude, and its those people who have likely led lives with bullies and think that behavior is "cool." But they can't steal from you if you don't plant there, and after all this herb nonsense blows over the happy medium known in the community gardens will return.

    End of rant.
    Posted 12 months ago by NicSTX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The devs are listening. That's why they put the signs up: to make their feelings on the matter perfectly clear.

    I look at it the same way I look at trees on public streets: There are no guarantees. People spend money on seasoned beans to plant public trees, too. Does that mean the trees should stay the same forever and never be poisoned because it was someone else's hard work and currants? I like knowing certain trees exist on certain streets, but sometimes they get switched around. Nothing I can do about that, they're public property. When I wanted a specific set of trees consistently available to me, I moved out of the bogs and into a 50K where I could spend money on the right beans to get the right trees that I knew would always be there.

    If you want to grow herbs without worrying, move to the bogs. If you want to grow crops without worrying, move out of the bogs. You can't reliably have it all. At least not right now. The community gardens are a free-for-all at this point, and the devs have made it pretty clear that that's their intention.
    Posted 12 months ago by Rev. Desdemona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nic I was planting in CROP gardens not HERB gardens which is one of the reasons I was so taken by surprise that someone purposely came over to the plot I was waiting for, when there were plenty of other plots (60 others in fact) that I was *not* waiting on.

    And Desdemona I think there is still a chance the devs might change their minds.  We're hoping anyways.
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I mean people are doing this specifically to be jerks and to steal what others have worked on.  That's not freedom, that's sociopathy.
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Don't plant in the community gardens (period).

    I once planted over 100 seeds one play session in the crop community gardens.  When I came back, most of the plots were still bare - whoever harvested obviously didn't bother to plant (even) Spinach.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • t someone purposely came over to the plot I was waiting for, when there were plenty of other plots (60 others in fact) that I was *not* waiting on.

    So why didn't you just take what was in one of the other 60 plots?
    Posted 12 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • See the thing is, I love planting and tending there just for the xp (it's basically a xp factory over there!  seriously..)  What bothers me, is when I specifically plant and guano and wait there for it to be done growing... and then someone runs up and snatches it even after I've asked them nicel to please not to.  If they wanted to they could do the work theirselfs, it's not a matter of them not having one plot or the other, it's not a matter of there being no other plots free, it's just a matter of people wanting to take something someone else has worked for and on and are even standing there waiting for.  It's just not nice, it's very rude and mean and many of these players (in speaking to other CG regulars) are verbally abusive, like the one was to me today too.  It's not right.  It's unethical and meanspirited.
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • shexy I wasn't waiting for any of those other 60, some of which were empty and watered and ready to be planted it, I was waiting for the one I had spent 100c in guano on.  !!!
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Miso George 

    Because the thievery happens, niceness also happens. If you take away freedom to be bad, you take away freedom to be good. I do not mean that in the technical sense of game mechanics. If you take away ability to do damage, there is no ability for good guys to unite and compensate for, which as shown in ruptures' post, has greater impact.
    Posted 12 months ago by Ingvar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Miso, screencap, record rude conversations.  We can also copy-paste conversations in the game client - there's an option for it.

    Though if you post the conversation in the forums - it's best to screen out the jerk's name.

    Anyway, really don't bother planting in the community gardens.  I don't know what the devs are thinking, but if this was World of Warcraft - it's like allowing kill-stealing to happen.  Not to mention, herbs planted by other people being stolen is practically the same as the Piggy mess a while back.

    Perhaps, the folks who planted (and watered) the seed is given a window in which to harvest it?  After the window has passed, plant becomes free-for-all.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This is the philosophical question: how do we respond when life is not fair? How do we prevent a small group from spoiling the equanimity and mutually beneficial, constructive behavior of the majority? What (and whom) are we willing to sacrifice in the cause of peace and prosperity for those who think the way we do? How do we fix those things we find unfair or unreasonable without damaging the free will which is at the core of moral behavior?

    If it is not possible to do wrong, then there is nothing particularly commendable about doing good.

    I will say that I believe change that comes from imposed moral strictures is not true change. Once upon a time I encountered a glitch who was deliberately gaming the auction. I called him/her out on it. We had a lengthy chat exchange on the topic: entirely civil, but quite intense. At the conclusion, the other glitch resolved to mend his/her ways and behave more kindly and responsibly.

    The result: that glitch is now one of the most respected members of the Community of Ur, someone known for generosity and reliability. Perhaps that was his/her destiny all along, but I believe that a gentle, calm, but persistent discussion of ethics and community can change minds.

    Some people can and will remain jerks, to be sure, no matter how many times they are engaged in dialog on a matter of communal concern. But in the grand scheme of things, that minority can be rendered small and meaningless by the good behavior of the overwhelming majority.

    Rather than reacting with anger or frustration, ask the perpetrators of theft (or any crummy behavior) if they really want to define themselves by that type of act. Do they really want to be selfish, mean, obnoxious, unpleasant people? Do they truly want to upset others and make them less trusting and more antagonistic as well? Do they want to live in a world that is essentially a state of nature, red in tooth and claw?

    If they do, well, poor them.
    If they don't, perhaps they'll stop and think one time. And that's all it takes for change to begin.

    An appeal to authority is not the best way to address this problem, imo.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Pascale, I'm afraid I don't have the time to change other people's morally wrong behavior in a online game.  Though, hopefully other folks have such free time to spare.

    Indeed, perhaps some jerks just need a moral figure or someone to set them straight, but I think it's better overall if they decide on their own to do what is good (even if it's just a game).

    Anyway, people - just do NOT plant in the community gardens.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • so how could the person harvest something that wasn't there?
    Posted 12 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, I think by now it's abundantly clear that the practical response to the situation is that if you will be bothered by others taking your crops from under your nose then you shouldn't plant in the community gardens.

    But, while this is pragmatically correct, it ignores the larger issues of the culture and ethos of Ur. Stoot has repeatedly written to the effect that one of the major design aspects of Glitch is to provide a world where the players will evolve the culture, and I don't want to believe that the culture we are evolving is one of "take whatever you can, whenever you can."  I would guess that at least 95% of Glitchen would agree that the ethos of the community gardens ought to be that what you plant is yours to harvest if you are waiting there when in ripens but is otherwise free for the taking.  After all, these are "community gardens," not "grab-what-you-can gardens," and the word community carries with it a sense of agreement, sharedness and common purpose.

    The players who knowingly grab others' crops from under their noses are stealing.  It doesn't matter that it is allowed by the rules of the game; taking the fruit of someone else's labour against their will is stealing whether or not it is illegal.

    The problem is that there is no way to provide sanctions against those who deliberately flout the cultural norms, and I think there ought to be.  We are supposed to be evolving a culture, and every culture develops vehicles for attempting to enforce its norms, sometimes gently, sometimes forcibly.  But we have no way to do so.  If Glitch is really going to have a player-developed culture then it can not be right that we-of-good-will (the majority) simply have to cave in to the bullies (the minority).  The game needs to provide a way to respond meaningfully to their acts. In the RW you can choose to be an outlaw and may enjoy the outlaw life, but you can not walk down the street proclaiming, "I'm an outlaw, and there's nothing you can do about it."  You'll be arrested. You pay a price for your choice (or for any choice), but in Glitch there is no price to pay for being an outlaw. There should be.
    Posted 12 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just want to remind everyone that there is a different solution than sanctions versus free-for-all.

    There is still a standing offer  for ANYONE to get a FREE bog home

    As this argument has continued for many days, and because the dev response was to put up a sign saying anyone can plant, anyone can harvest, perhaps they are waiting for us to notice that the solution is not more restrictions.  

    What boggles the mind is that more than a week after the offer was posted, only a few folks have actually acted on it.

    So, what it really comes down to is that people want to argue and fight instead of having their own, secure personal free herb garden.  

    People who don't have an herb garden at this point are people who don't want an herb garden because something else about the game is far more important to them than having an herb garden.  

    I'm not saying that everyone should give up their 50k home and move to the bogs.  

    What I am saying is:  if your current home, for whatever reasons, is more important to you than a bog home,and if you are asking for sanctions against other people using the community gardens in a way that the devs have said is OK,  then you're simply a cry-baby who wants everyone else's toys without giving up your own.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Hawkwell There is a price. You will be known as such and will be treated poorly. After you have no more reason to farm who will you turn to if you're an outcast? This is a social game after all, blacklisting can have really major effects.
    Posted 12 months ago by Emerald Hill Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hawkwell I totally agree.
    Especially this:  The problem is that there is no way to provide sanctions against those who deliberately flout the cultural norms, and I think there ought to be. 
    Very well said. :: nods ::

    Also thank you for the offer Windborn but as I've said I wasn't farming herbs.  Still that is a kind offer.  =)
    There are other community gardens besides herb plots and other reasons to farm besides potionmaking.

    Edit: "This is a social game after all, blacklisting can have really major effects." but what blacklisting?  What can we really do to blacklist other players when we can't sanction them, we can't call them out by name, we can't make literal lists of players to avoid, so what are the honest players who want to avoid the thieves left with?  Just avoid those areas?  But the thieves will go to something else I suppose if they're not able to take what others have worked for.  They'll just go to other forms of abuse.  I see this as a cycle if it's allowed to continue unchecked... the honest players will start avoiding the community gardens, the thieves will stop going there, the honest players will move back, the thieves will go back, the honest players will be harassed, and what then??
    Also I don't believe it's true that if there's no bad behaviour there will be no incentive for good behaviour or kindness, that's just untrue.  You can go to the gardens and only farm what you plant, or you can harvest and then share what you've harvested, or you can go and give away presents and help other players with quests, etc.  There is neutral behaviour (not stealing but not going and helping others or giving stuff away) and then there's GOOD behaviour (being kind and helping and sharing).  Good behaviour will always be rewarded even when bad behaviour is sanctioned.  That's why thieves IRL get arrested and good workers at work get promoted.  =/
    Posted 12 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink