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### Topic

#### Observations About Public Opinion of Community Garden Guidelines

Observation 1:
The people in the Community Gardens (so not those who plant for the community and then leave) fall mostly in to two camps, which both violate the sign posts recently put up.
1) Those who believe they have the right to harvest all the herbs they have planted.
2) Those who attempt to (in the words of camp 1ers) "steal" herbs that are clearly being guarded. They don't replant for other people.
Most of the people in the Gardens fall into camp 1. They are nice, friendly people... unless you take what they consider to be their herbs.
Observation 2:
The majority of people who post in the forums strongly support the "all may plant, all may harvest" philosophy. They are probably nice, but attack strongly anyone who disagrees with them.
The Effect this has:
In the Community Gardens, it is impossible to live by the Community Guidelines and get herbs without making enemies and being attacked. If you are a camp 2 player, everyone will hate you. If you are a member of the rare species who plants for the community, you will rarely get herbs yourself because of the abundance of the camp 2 players who take everything they see and camp 1 players who, as a nice person, you don't want to offend through "theft." So, to get herbs from the Community Gardens and not offend people, you have to become a camp 1 player.
(Of course, you could move to a home with an herb garden. But if you are in the Community Gardens, chances are you don't want to move. Your alternative, then, is to buy herbs. Luckily, lately this has become extremely affordable.)
In the forums, to stand up for the camp 1 lifestyle is to be attacked. Staying silent is the easiest thing to do.
My Main Point: It is interesting how those who inhabit the Community Gardens and those who comment on the Community Gardens in the forums generally have exact opposite opinions.
To Devs reading the forums, it woulds seem public opinion is very for the "all may plant, all may harvest" philosophy. But the actual opinion in the Community Gardens is ignoring the signs is best.
Thoughts?

Posted 12 months ago by Isabelle the Pug | Permalink

### Replies

- buy
  a
  house
  and
  get
  over
  it.
  If you don't want to, feel free to keep getting "stolen" from.
  I gave up my 50k, for a 7.5k bog house.
  Don't see me continuously harping over a month or so old update.
  Posted 12 months ago by Volkov | Permalink
- The Camp 3 people do exist, but they are easy to miss because they don't camp out at the gardens.
  3. Glitches who go to the garden area, harvest some of the crops they see replant some, then move on.
  And there are also the camp four glitches, who just stay away from what appears to be an odious scene.
  Posted 12 months ago by Parrow Gnolle | Permalink
- And there are camp five players who have collaborative relationships with owners of bog homes.
  And there are camp six players who have bog homes owned by alts, rules or no rules.
  I was in camp four (anti-odium), until I got to camp five. I like camp five.
  Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot | Permalink
- I refuse to try to harvest there. I just plant spare seeds, working toward the badges. I wish the devs would do something, because what happens in the gardens going against what the dev "say" is their goal of making a cooperative friendly environment.
  To say nothing about the stupid tree wars.
  If I want conflict, I'd play minecraft or warcraft or whatevercraft game is out there.
  Posted 12 months ago by Tibbi | Permalink
- To be fair, Minecraft isn't mostly about conflict, and by design its not about PvP conflict (You fight back a bunch of malevolent NPC bots mostly) . Its about crafting and building. I can't speak for Warcraft.
  Posted 12 months ago by Parrow Gnolle | Permalink
- @Volkov... in a way you are "continuously harping over a month or so old update."
  Because you are still commenting about herb gardens too.
  Why not go buy an herb house?
  I don't want to. That's not my choice for how I want to play.
  Posted 12 months ago by Isabelle the Pug | Permalink
- Warcraft is mostly about knitting and embroidery. Or so I've heard.
  <cue Leeeeeroy Jenkins video!>
  Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot | Permalink
- buy
  a
  house
  and
  get
  over
  it.
  If buying a herb house is "not your choice for how you want to play," then you don't get to use the community gardens as a replacement for your own personal herb house. That's like saying "I want a high-paying job," and when people tell you it's a good idea to get a university degree if you want a good job, saying "Even though that's totally within my means, that's not the choice I want to make. But I still want a high-paying job, so give it to me." Sometimes we have to make hard choices in life. If you can't handle the horrible inner conflict of making choices in a fake internet game, you should probably just quit humanity and become a cat. They tend to have a pretty sweet deal in life.
  Posted 12 months ago by Effigy | Permalink
- Becoming a cat would be nice! I'd rather become a dog though.
  And at this point I'm not personally concerned with getting herbs. I have a super awesome friend who lets me and many others use their garden. And when I do use the community garden, I am able to collect what I need... although for the above stated reasons I do belong to camp 1.
  Honestly, this post was more me wondering why those people in the forums who don't use the community gardens always are telling those who do what they should do in the community gardens.
  Personally I think there is nothing wrong with standing by the herbs you planted. The "all" in "all may harvest" includes the planter. If someone else harvests those herbs... well who is hurt if I politely (and politely being key) ask for those herbs back?
  Posted 12 months ago by Isabelle the Pug | Permalink
- I agree that the OP is ignoring camp 3. People who go, take some herbs, (get abuse for "using someone else's plot"), replant and leave. No, they don't hang out in the gardens, there's a lot more to do in the game than standing over a plot watching herbs grow. I suspect most players play in this way, its just the small minority of plot-campers are always there, so more visible.
  I don't want to camp a plot forever, its a boring play style, (which I'm sure is the reason the Dev's are not encouraging it) and I'm not going to let the rude plot-campers force me to play the game in a dull way.
  Hopefully once the house changes come out, people who want a private herb garden will get one, rather than trying to turn the community gardens into one, and it can go back to being a open
  Posted 12 months ago by Lukie | Permalink
- Yup. This is exactly why I stopped planting for the community:(
  Posted 12 months ago by Geeki Yogini | Permalink
- "If you can't handle the horrible inner conflict of making choices in a fake internet game, you should probably just quit humanity and become a cat."
  I love it! Thank you for the smile!
  Posted 12 months ago by Audaria | Permalink
- I don't know what camp it forms, but I have a bog house, and whenever I've got spare seeds and/or guano, I go to the local community garden, plant and fertilise the plots for the people hanging out there, and leave them to harvest. I've never encountered any of the reported nastiness, which isn't to say that it doesn't exist, but that it's possible to contribute to a pleasant collaborative space.
  What it does suggest, though, is that there's still too much asymmetry between the tools available to individual players to disrupt emergent collective gameplay and the tools available to groups to ward off that disruption.
  Posted 12 months ago by Holgate | Permalink
- @Holgate
  Thanks for being a great community member!
  Posted 12 months ago by Isabelle the Pug | Permalink
- The herb gardens are easy targets for trolling, that's all. It's a place where a few antisocial people can readily grief large numbers of others without fear of retribution and its a sure way to make someone very angry without having to risk being reported for it. Then they come to the forums and thumb their noses at the people who complain here about it so its really a two for one deal when it comes to causing strife. The gardens also attract the simply greedy but they are probably actually a smaller population when it comes to the "theft" of herbs.
  I personally don't go to the public gardens. I used to drop by occasionally and randomly plant things but it just feeds the haters these days so I don't bother with it anymore.
  The easiest thing to do is just abandon the public herb gardens and go hang out at a friends house in the fire bog.
  Posted 12 months ago by Melting Sky | Permalink
- The signs sometimes make things worse. "Thieves" quote them as they take the herbs you have planted, fertilized and had hopes of harvesting: "All may plant, all may harvest."
  Posted 12 months ago by Brib Annie | Permalink
- www.glitch.com/forum/genera...
  Posted 12 months ago by Dr. Yeti | Permalink
- Tools to succeed, yet they aren't being used properly.
  Posted 12 months ago by Volkov | Permalink
- Not everyone has the same innate social tools to make a friend for the purpose of, basically, using such a friend in gameplay.
  I'm uncomfortable with using my daughter's herb garden for my own gain, even though she is neglecting it herself--because she is out having fun with friends in a real world setting, and there's nothing wrong with that. I go feed her piggies every couple of days and cycle her herb garden. But if she quits altogether I am not going to use her house/garden as if they're my alt.
  I won't go fight other people for community herb space, either. I'll just do without until/unless the house refits fix the problem a different way.
  Posted 12 months ago by So sorry | Permalink
- There are several reasons why I dislike the fact that camp 2 exists (specifically meaning the griefers who take from and taunt the other people using the gardens at that time).
  1. The current guidelines allow them to make excuses about taking away resources that other people have spent time on. Since time is the only real currency in this game, this is stealing. Having criminal behavior sanctioned in the game destroys the kind of community that TS has said they want, and the majority of the players seem to want.
  2. They feel the need to not only "punish" people by stealing, but also bullying and harassing people. I have not heard of any incident where a camp 1 person "asking nicely" has resulted in anything but insults from camp 2.
  3. They say they are using the community gardens "correctly", and cite the signs as evidence, but since they do not hoe, plant, water or fertilize, they are only taking and not contributing, which goes against the good of the community.
  4. I feel that this is a case where TS has made a very bad choice in their control over the game economy. The fact that they have used none of the obvious and easy solutions over a fair length of time, while creating the current shortage with the roll out of the recent skills, indicates to me that they purposefully intend to keep this game mechanic, so the problem will remain after the housing updates. I would be very happy to be wrong about this.
  My own behavior ranges between camp 3 and camp 1, depending on the current population and use of the garden. I believe that both are polite and valid uses of the community garden, within the guidelines and even the posted signs, if a person is working with a small number of plots for a limited amount of time. However, both of these are difficult to accomplish given the existence of camp 2, and obviously a source of conflict since people cannot agree to simply leave others alone if they have a different perspective on how they wish to use the gardens.
  I think that in the long run, the general supply and demand situation will correct itself a little, and the furor will die down. However, I have been seeing this pattern play out in this game over and over in the spice/gas tree wars, the fights over how to "correctly" use the locked mining areas, the wood tree wars, and even earlier fights over how to "correctly" use the crop community gardens. Where ever the game mechanics allow a resource to become scarce, some people will attempt to monopolize it, some people will attempt to create "fair" access to it, and some people will object that any attempt to institute control infringes on their freedom. There is no way to reconcile these points of view, since they are basic philosophical leanings, and the only ones who can choose to impose any structure on these situations are the TS staff.
  Posted 12 months ago by KhaKhonsu | Permalink
- The only social control available in a world like Glitch is "ignoring."
  Block.
  Refrain from conversing. Do not interact. (Some communities call this 'shunning.')
  It shouldn't rise to the level of revenge-griefing. Just be non-violently neutral and non-reactive. Walk away. Go limp and resist passively (emotionally speaking) when someone is aggressive with you.
  The techniques of MLK and Gandhi are the only ones available that comply with the ToS. Find a way to reflect back to the perpetrators the shamefulness of their behavior and the harmlessness and innocence of those being abused. This means behaving impeccably kindly, compassionately, non-aggressively, and generously even when others are being mean-spirited, nasty, and aggressive. It does not mean returning insult for insult or escalating the obnoxious behavior.
  This is very hard to do. It requires tremendous self-discipline and self-awareness.
  If enough people do this, consistently, the culture will reinforce it and the triumphalism of the obnoxious will fall on deaf ears and lose its appeal even for those who enjoy sparking conflict.
  It is also, ultimately, great spiritual individual and community practice for a world in which resources are scarce and overt power unevenly/asymmetrically distributed and deployed.
  Posted 12 months ago by Fluxan | Permalink
- Interestingly enough, as this happens to be a form of blacklisting (the blocking), a lot of people seem to abhor this behavior, as if blocking is wrong. I sincerely hope no one comes in and tries to shame you for that, Fluxan, as blocking is indeed the only way to make these people go away, or at the least possibly change their behaviors.
  Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan | Permalink
- If you pass around or otherwise publicize the names of people who you think others ought to block, that is "blocklisting" (heh, I just made that up!), and is clearly against the ToS as a form of retaliatory griefing. Fluxan specifically said s/he wasn't advocating that.
  Each glitch making an individual decision about whom s/he will interact with is NOT griefing. It is not a campaign to make anyone else's life miserable. It is just a choice to not interact with people who are unpleasant.
  "I don't wish to play this way. Have a great day!" Then block, leave, disengage, step away, go do something kind and generous and fun that brings you and others pleasure in the game.
  Posted 12 months ago by Pascale | Permalink
- I have found that any form of shunning is pointless in controlling active griefers. Ignoring and cutting off chat access cannot prevent the sort of behavior described in other threads where people block access to resources by dumping items, releasing animals, setting up spinning wheels and similar actions. People who feel that they are justified in their behavior, because they are enforcing the "correct" method of gameplay, actually seem to find that being shunned reinforces the fact that they are both correct and even "needed" to move other users' behavior in the direction they want.
  Posted 12 months ago by KhaKhonsu | Permalink
- Publicly making a big deal out of blocking is agains the TOS, yes, but if you tell your friends to block someone, that is fair by the rules.
  Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan | Permalink
- @Mereret: You make a good point, but as I see it, shunning is done for yourself - so you don't get caught up in the bad behavior and start becoming the same way as them ("you" in the general sense, not "you" in particular). Also, so your game experience isn't ruined, because it will be only if you let that happen.
  Become the change you wish to see.... but don't sweat it if others don't choose to follow your example.
  Posted 12 months ago by Flowerry Pott | Permalink
- Cultural norms take time to emerge, and changing them takes even more time.
  Patience, kindness, forbearance, generosity, and more patience.
  Happy New Year, friends, and have fun!
  Posted 12 months ago by Fluxan | Permalink
- Just a quite note:
  twitter.com/#!/glitchlog/st...
  So migrant gardeners can have time to admire their work, public plots'll be locked to the seed planter for 60 seconds after harvestin time.
  Check it. All those who where pretending that "all may harvest" justified the grief. Your wrong. Please accept this gracefully.
  Posted 11 months ago by ICountFrom0 | Permalink
- That happened a few days ago, and quite simply doesn't change anything. When there wasn't a mechanic to protect, All May Harvest justified harvesting anything, and purposefully plowing into it headfirst than complaining that you found the inevitable drama wasn't justified. Most people weren't claiming it justified the grief -- most were just claiming that it was what it was and rather than stomp feet and cry about it people should use other mechanisms or move on.
  There's nothing to accept gracefully. Now we'll just hear whining about people that glanced away and lost their herbs. And fights about who was where first for herbs they didn't plant. And fights about who planted 32 plots instead of just 4.
  Sane people will use the mechanisms that are present to avoid the drama. Insane people will keep doing the same thing that upsets them while expecting different results and demanding everybody else care. It will be just as whiny and inappropriate in the future as it was in the past.
  Posted 11 months ago by Red Sauce | Permalink
- Public gardens are there for those who either do not have an herb and veggie garden, or house. For those who have no other way of getting these items *new players more so* it is a bit rude to take what they may have spent a lot of currants on for guano and time to cultivate. If it is an open garden feel free to take, unless someone is actively using the space. It is kind to ask for a spot, wait or move on to one of the other public gardens.
  Many times a rear few have taken things I have spent a lot of time on and it rubs me the wrong way. If you need something ask, I am happy to give and I always replant unless someone is waiting for a blank spot. Its not a question of group 1 or group 2 it is about being respectful to other players.
  Posted 11 months ago by Baron Münchhausen | Permalink