Topic

Dear Glitch: Stop doing complicated stuff, head hurts.

The only thing I hate from Glitch is that any question related to IMG, energy or mood (for example) is allways met by an answer depicting a complicated multi step calculation process designed by NASA engineers using obscure data nowhere to be found in a glance.

I just want to know, one example of many, how much IMG my rock gives me when other ppl come to my street without having to calculate the orbit of the earth between leap years considering the mass of the dark matter in the galaxy.

Next time use a system that can be explained saying stuff like "Oh, is twelve, that´s it" or "of course! is either one or two, anything else?"

Thanks.

Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

Previous 1 2
  • But we need our number crunchers to impress the Giants. ;)
    Posted 6 months ago by Thursday Soleil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ok let's just say you get MORE iMG when people come to visit your street and leave it at that. Just play the game and collect your iMG and you won't have to calculate anything. 

    I never calculate a thing. I just play and I end up having tons of iMG, currants, and stuff!

    Don't calculate, JUST PLAY!!!!!!
    Posted 6 months ago by Eye Wonder Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Eye Wonder:

    1.- IMG was an example, everything in Glitch tends to be complicated to understand.

    2.- I´ve allways been a min-maxer in all my games, my happiness is linked to the hability to maximize my income (exp, img, gold, currants, coins, mood, mana, you name it). Glitch deprives me of that enjoyment and it is anoying.
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I feel the same way ... I need "layglitch" (layman) terms! Math was my worst subject! :D
    Posted 6 months ago by Seaweed Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I understand the need of making the game "magic" and "imaginative" and "natural", but that can be achieved via gameplay and visual designt, not obscuring data that should be readily available to anyone.
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yah, I tend to skip all the calculation stuff and just let what happens happen. Its more fun for me that way:)
    Posted 6 months ago by Muncey Mango Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Goodness, street iMG calculation is rather simplistic...I am personally hoping for more complex randomization of EVERYTHING in Glitch, so it won't be so easy to figure out...most of the algorithms for Glitch seem rather linear vice complex and I think it would be more fun if it were harder to figure out...(so it's harder for people to 'game the system').  I would love for it to be so hard that most folks do ignore the calculations and just play and get happy surprises...current calculations are just too easy to optimize right now, IMO...especially for cooking skills, alchemy, etc.  However, adding in things to make it more complex or at least give us more options for earning things like iMG (which is what I think they are trying to do), is way better...please TS don't dumb it down...make it more complex = more fun!
    Posted 6 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The problem with the home street iMG example is that it's not a simple number when you get a visitor on your street.  From what I understand, you don't get iMG from the action of someone visiting your street, but from each action a person performs on the resources on your street (provided that performing the actions naturally earns imagination).  Therefore, you can't get a simple answer of how much iMG you will earn when someone visits your home street.
    Posted 6 months ago by >^.^< Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I also don't care about the calculation. It's more if people do stuff, not more if they don't. Good enough for me.
    Posted 6 months ago by Credulous Ralph Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Mikah-How exactly can you be a min/max player in any game w/o some math? Your example question requires experimentation and subtraction. Not even as fancy as multiplication to scale for level. (If they use a single number to scale to levels). 

    @b3achy +1. 
    Posted 6 months ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Metra: I min-max what I can understand, and the best games I have played (including tabletops) allows you to take a good look on the numbers: how, when, how much, how often, why, what amount, etc.

    Unless something is missing to me, I can´t find, for the life of me, a place with those numbers here in Glitch. The answers are all allways "a percenteage of the multiplied ammount of your base calculation"... what percenteage? multiplying what? what base? how much? where is my base? what is the percenteage?

    Too much data to be colected for processing and nowhere (or at least not to me) to find it, you can´t add something to something without knowing what are you adding.

    And again, magic and imaginative doesn´t needs to mean obtuse and complicated on purpose.
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Perhaps the purpose is to make Glitch a game where min-max strategies are less helpful than in most games.  
    Posted 6 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @mikah and other advocates of the same point: Just b/c you do not like it, does not mean that I don't.
    I'm never going to be as numbers-srs as about 15 awesome people I know in game.
    But I do appreciate it when there is srs maths behind it.
    Means someone thought it through.
    I hate it when I lift the hood on my vehicle, and find there's nothing there but two hamsters, a wheel, and a stick of cheese.
    I'd rather know there's 500 Italian horses just waiting for a spark to ignite them, pin my face to the rear windshield and my bollocks into the back seat.
    Not everyone wants that kind of experience.
    But I do.

    At the end of the day, I think the valid critique is not what's happening on the back-end, but on the public face: How is it explained, and all that bumpf.

    That's fine: In automotive terms, that's a paint job, and maybe a bit of chrome.  Easily fixed.
    The hard ugly oily bits that keep the game running, that's important too.
    But you can't pull it out of the driveway and turn heads without both.

    Oh, and IMG calculations do not involve dark matter quantifaction.  It's number of galactic standard years until the heat death of the universe divided by the weighted average of your intelligence quotient over the past 20 years, times eleventy.  Or so the hamsters tell me.
    Posted 6 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 1+1=3.

    :D
    Posted 6 months ago by OMG BACON!! Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How does being a min/max player work? I've never heard of this before. (No, really, I'm serious. I don't do a lot of gaming.)
    Posted 6 months ago by Maddie_Rocca Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maddy, here's some info

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergaming
    Posted 6 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • + 1 Eye Wonder:)
    Crash: Enjoyed your analogy!

    I'm glad there are players who enjoy the math. I suspect that, for them, that is part of their enjoyment of the game, like solving riddles/puzzles.....and the more complex, the better the challenge. I'm just grateful that they share their results/conclusions/bottom lines with others.
    Posted 6 months ago by GreyGoose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dear OP: You need the comprehension card.
    It's only 1350 iMG!
    Posted 6 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes WindBorn, Glitch indeed does a good work hiding those stats to give relevance to the "atmosphere" of the game... but somewhere there is a server filled with "0´s" and "1´s" that process all that atmopshere into crunchable data. I want to talk to that server.
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Crashtestpilot I tried to add you as a buddy because that comment but I can´t do it.

    ¿You blocked me? T-T
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Mikah
    Posted 6 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • GreyGoose I don´t really enjoy the math, mind you, but I appreciate the availability of the data.
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I effing HATE math, it pisses me off!
    Posted 6 months ago by Serra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • so you want a game that's not as interesting to play because your maths isn't very good?
    Posted 6 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • we are all just beings thrown together for the fun of the Gods of UR. They have the control. They are waiting to see what we as insignificant beings will do. IT'S A TEST!!!! They sit in judgment of us, rewarding us for what we do in whatever way They see fit. don't ask too many questions, They may decide to just squish us!!  SHHHHHH
    Posted 6 months ago by CatoriTala Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hush, now. It's okay. Tii loves you.
    Posted 6 months ago by Jennyanydots Subscriber! | Permalink
  • LOL, you want to min/max without understanding what you're doing? Let's hope the game remains complex enough that there is no single trivial, optimal path.
    Posted 6 months ago by Janitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Since we're in Beta, isn't there a pretty good chance that a week after you've figured out the precise formula, the Dev's will decide they need to tweak the game balance, and it will change anyway?
    Posted 6 months ago by KhaKhonsu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the game has enough to cater for everyone.  Make it too hard and some players will leave and the same if they dumb it down.   As it is for the most part, the only math I worry about is when donating as I don't like wasting shrine powder.  Everything else I just take as it comes.  I've completely ignored all of the spreadsheets as I want to find the best way for me to play my way and not go in knowing I 'should' be cooking or making this or that.   The fun is in the testing out for me : )  Brings more variety to the game!

    Edit: To OP (Mikah) My head hurts too if I'm too tired...when that happens at least once every day I resort to pig nibbling...they seem to like it and am starting to find it quite enjoyable too ;)
    Posted 6 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dear friends: That´s how I play my games and I can´t change the way I get my fix with them. I`m not alone and game designers know that too.

    ¿The developers change the rules? ¿alter the game? ¿modify the stats? ¿delete or eliminate a feature? ¿Launch, unlaunch, relaunch and launch-launch the game again and again? ¿economy based on currants one day or IMG the next day? We figure it out and change our gameplay to fit the changes and do our best.

         - You love to roam mindlessly. Good
         - You love to craft and build. Good
         - You love to chat while playing. Good
         - You love to create and share. Good
         - I love to min-max my games. It allways have been that way. 

    And all the game developers are aware of that. They know min-maxers existe because the developers ARE min-maxers, they crunch the data in all the meaningfull ways possible, so they know.
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Min/max'ing is totally valid. Not my cup of tea, but I fully support it. But it should not be made simple for the sake of making it simple. Many min/maxers RELISH figuring out the math. For those that do, there should be opportunities.

    (Although, I would say, except for the mysterious "how many animals can I keep on my street" question, none of the math is that tricky.)
    Posted 6 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Opening comment, soo funny,Mikah.  Thanks for the grin.
    I start reading those explanation, and my brain kindly goes off focus and turns away.  It knows whats good for me, haha.  But I think there must be people who just gobble that stuff up.  Its the way their brains bring funstuff to them.  Good thing there's something for each of us.
    Posted 6 months ago by Phoebe Springback Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @B3achy - please can you share with us the rather simplistic street IMG calculations mentioned?  I'm sure those of use that haven't fathomed them out would be interested to know the simple math needed to increase our IMG street income.  Thanks!
    Posted 6 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've got a lot of ideas formulating now because of this thread.  I hope no one takes offense, I'm not trying to single anyone out.

    Several thoughts come to mind.  First, a touch of background.  I am a free and wild person who has a high IQ and has traditionally had a very low mathematical ability.  I've done what I've wanted and avoided learning math for a very long time.

    I went back to school to finish my degree, hooray!  Yes, I am an A student, yes, I like me and have no problem tooting my own horn and yes, it took twenty years of running away from any kind of number-related education.  Then, I finally gave in and said to myself, even if you fail or cry or have to take the classes over and over again, you are going to do this.  Period."  Three semesters later and three math/algebra classes later, I survived with an A and two Bs.  It isn't as magically horrible as I had thought it would be although I am horrendously sad about getting two Bs...I always get As!  I'll just keep telling myself I agreed to do this even if I failed.  So hard though!

    That being said, I must now express my thoughts.

    If you, any of you, use the words "dumb down", the person who is asking for more simplicity could take that kind of statement to mean that the stater thinks the asker dumb.  If you say that it is easy or simple or not tricky or piece of cake or nothing complex here, after someone has said it is not simple but hard, you are negating the person's statement.  You could also be interpreted as saying that their view of difficult is actually wrong and that what comes easy to you is actually easy for all but the dumb ones, the ones who can't figure it out.  Does not mean that is what you are saying, but it is a great way to lead to misunderstanding.

    I'd like to propose that when a fellow player says something is so hard it makes their head hurt, we all who are interested take that to mean exactly what they said, it is so hard it makes their head hurt.  I understand that it is easy for those who have been exposed to formulas, how to find them, how to make them, how to implement them.  I also understand that it is only easy for those who have either practiced them repeatedly and experienced success when using mathematical formulas to solve applications.

    I would like the players who find this easy to understand that for those with limited, dated (more than twenty years for me until I returned to school) or non-existent experience and exposure to math or algebra or any kind of numbers education, this is not easy to figure out.  I would also like for the quick-with-numbers players to consider that consistent exposure from an early age that continued on through university and employment means a better and quicker understanding of number applications.  If we don't use it, we lose it, or so it seems.

    I am not saying anyone is calling anyone else dumb, please understand.  I just want to make sure that you all know that some of the statements above could be interpreted that way.  I like my brain, I know I am smart so I'll never think I'm dumb.  But, I am also still sensitive about my mathematical abilities and found some of the above statements to be a bit harsh.

    Yes, the formulas for figuring out glitchy things are not rocket science.  Yes, many of my fellow classmates said that their fifth grader is better at math than they are.  Yes, it is still difficult if you don't know how to do it.

    Is there a group we could start for those who know and want to share and those who don't know but would like to?  For all I know, there probably is a group already established.  I actually don't care about the formulas because, well, it is numbers and I still  mostly hate numbers.  I may run screaming from the computer just because numbers were brought up during my summer break...wahhhhh!  But, for those who enjoy figuring stuff out and are happy to share, I think it could be fun.  Newer players or players who don't want to do the math or players who can't do the math or players who are having a bit of trouble doing the math might find it a useful service.
    Posted 6 months ago by Minkey Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hi Minkey, I was one of the folk who wrote 'dumb it down' within my first post and honestly, it just flew out as I was typing.  I type in a flow with whatever is in my head.  I'm really not going to start second guessing everything I type just incase someone may get offended.  I was offended by a forum thread on here this morning funnily enough (which actually I'm not going to discuss because I don't think that particular thread warrants further congratulatory attention).  

    Anyway, cor blimey...I could have just said don't make it harder and don't make it easier, but if I had said that instead, by your reasoning I'd be implying (to someone who perhaps has self esteem issues) that they were in effect 'dumb'?? That of course would just be their perception because of their low self-esteem.  My point with the original statement was pretty clear in my first post.

    I'm losing my point now because I'm tired (and yes my head hurts so now I'll be nibbling pigs ;) - and I loathe maths lmao - that was a brilliant post from you btw though, even though I didn't  agree.  Sorry : )
    Posted 6 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is okay dear friends, no harm done, this is Glitch anyway and everybody is just nice and peachy n_n

    Thanks for sharing your story Minkey, I have the same view about numbers "I can understand you, freaking formula, but I hate you anyway"
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sorry, Arabesque!  I didn't mean to point you out.  And, no, you shouldn't edit your thoughts as they roll out, there is no reason to censor ourselves.  I am sure you are not offended but I still want to make sure you know I don't mean any offense.  I respect the things you say and your opinion very much!

    But, yes, I am a very sensitive gal and have always felt way below the mark when it comes to numbers.  I did think it worth saying that some of us might not like some of the terms.

    Thanks, Mikah, I don't want to be the only one running away from the calculator or the formulas!
    Posted 6 months ago by Minkey Subscriber! | Permalink
  • For Arabesque - stoot's explanation of the street visitor calculation.  He doesn't give it all away (that wouldn't be any fun, now would it?!), but it's something that would be pretty easy to cipher out for one of the calculation/stats groups (with a few experiments). In a nutshell - everyone gets a certain amount of iMG from visitors.  The max of that is dependent on your level. However, you also get at a minimum 20% of that max even if you have no visitors. Consider that your 'you have a street' foundation amount. Then depending on how many actions your visitors do, add a certain amount (he wasn't specific about how much - that is something that would need to be ciphered out) of iMG to that foundation. So essentially you can get up to 120% of the total iMG for your level each day you check in with Rocky (100% from visitors + 20% from just having a street).  It's a completely additive formula...so rather simplistic...no derivations, integrals, square roots, etc. involved. You get x amount of iMG just for being.  People visit and for each action they do, you get y more iMG up to a certain max of z iMG.  So your total daily is x+y, unless you hit the max and then it is x+z iMG.  In a nutshell C. Ralph was right...if people come by your street and do stuff, the more stuff that is done, the more iMG you will get. Exceptionally concise, yet perfect explanation of the above. :D

    Now, one additional thing that they said in a separate thread (don't remember where).  The daily totals are not cumulative.  It only remembers those days where you had the highest iMG until you collect it from Rocky. So if one day you get 300 iMG, and the next you get 600 iMG, and the next you get 400 iMG, but you don't check in until after the third day, you won't get 1300 iMG, but instead just 600 iMG because that was the biggest day. (Honestly, since there is a cap anyway, not sure I like this one since I'd prefer it to be cumulative up to the max...but it is what it is, and frankly, is pretty fair overall, since you get the 600 and not just the 400 since that was the previous iMG to the day you checked in with Rocky.)

    Sorry if the 'dumbing down' comment offended...in the future I will reference 'smarting it up' instead so folks won't be so offended - although now I have to contend with the smart folks getting on my case.  I'm just getting really tired of the constant forums mantra of 'make it easier, make it simpler, make it so anyone can do it'.  I really get tired of this mentality because if anyone can do it, then it will make it uber boring for others...and I'm a big believer in challenging people to attain greatness they didn't think they were capable of.  I've been part of so many education systems that cater to the lowest person, and frankly, IMO, that does no one any favors.  

    I believe in finding what you are good at, and specializing in it...no one thing is better than another. Frankly, I'm uber dumb in certain areas, and relatively smart in others.  I personally don't take offense to the term that is opposite of smart if it applies to me for that area of expertise.  It just is what it is...and making things more simplistic is the opposite of making it harder, and it just might take a smarter person to figure out the harder stuff. I personally want things in this game that even the smart folks have a majorly hard time figuring out.  I personally think when things are too hard to figure out, people will eventually stop trying to do it, and will just enjoy/accept it for what it is...again...I want folks to just play and enjoy the happy 'surprises' 'coz they are too hard to figure out...but I'm crazy that way...
    Posted 6 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you, B3achy, for the sorry even though I know you meant absolutely zero offense.  I don't think anyone meant any offense.  And, sorry for being so sensitive!!  I see what  you are saying though.  There are things that bore me to near death but for others they find the thing difficult.  I don't actually want the task any  easier either.  Plus, that is what makes for good sharing opportunities, some get it easily and some ask for help.
    Posted 6 months ago by Minkey Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @mikah:  Table top games *have* to give you the numbers. How would you play with out them?!! lol

    "without having to calculate the orbit of the earth between leap years considering the mass of the dark matter in the galaxy.

    After your other posts I'm realizing that it wasn't a complaint about the math but that you just want the numbers handed to you. 

    Perhaps next time instead of using hyperbole of dark matter just flat out ask simply instead of unnecessarily obscuring your request :P

    ._______________________________________________

    what percenteage? multiplying what? what base? how much? where is my base? what is the percenteage?Too much data to be colected for processing --Mikah

    One of the reasons levels were kept were to scale things. So a good initial assumption for things like rock iMG, new street iMG, icons, and Quarazy Quoins is level * multiplier+base.

    Base doesn't matter b/c you can't change it and if ignored it means you only need 3 data points form ppl at different levels to figure out if the relationship is linear. Icons we have been told are very random and there is a Stoot answer with % given. 

    Also, for rock iMG there is a Stoot answer that base iMG given by the rock is 20% of the max you can earn in a game day meaning you can get 120% of your minimum iMG. Straddle a game day change and figure out your 20%.......

    Ignoring icons that is 9 data points for the things that give scaled iMG. How is that " too much data"?

    So you gave "one example of many" ...anything else in game that doesn't give flat iMG?
    Posted 6 months ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hear you saying you would have more fun if more of the formulae were transparent or explicitly explained.  I would have less fun that way.  I don't think there is much of a case to be made for either other than some people want one and others want the other.
    Posted 6 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @B3achy I sincerely appreciate everything you wrote..at this time I'm in a 'head hurts' state of mind so will have to read it again in the morning when I know the info you posted will sink in LOLOLOLOLOL - thank you :o)
    Posted 6 months ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dear Metra: You managed to comment avoiding in a very elegant way even touching the real issue that made me open this thread: 

    WHAT
    IS
    THE
    NUMBER
    ?

    That´s all, easy peasy. An old boss of mine had this quip at hand allways: "Thanks for your answer, but that wasn´t the question I asked"
    Posted 6 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • (redacted)
    Posted 6 months ago by Janitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We Ti'ites can't help but do calculations like that.
    Posted 6 months ago by Jurkowski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The maximum amount you can get in a day varies with level but it is not a fixed percentage of the experience you need to earn your next level.  At level 5, the free daily amount (which is 20% of the max you can earn from visitors) is 50, so the max from visitors is between 248 and 252.  Imagination to earn level 6 is 2290, so the max you can earn is around 10.9% of what you need to level.

    At level 17 the free daily amount if 129, so the max from visitors is between 643 and 647.  You need 31,802 to level so you can only pick up around 2% of a level each day.

    At level 51, if the max was 2% of what you needed to level then you'd be picking up nearly 4k img per day even if no one visited.  Since I pick up less than that despite being on a frequently used route, I would estimate the real value to be around 0.3% to 0.4% of what I need to level.

    At the same time it does not increase linearly with level.  If it did then based on levels 5 and 17 the max at 51 would only be around 1800.

    In order to really figure this out I think we'd need people who don't have anything in their yards or who never have any visitors to provide data.  If you fall into this category and you'd like to help just post what level you are and how much imagination you get every day.  This would only be helpful if you get the exact same amount every day (it will change if you level).  If you do not get exactly the same value every day then we can't draw conclusions from your results.
    Posted 6 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • At level 41, I got 535 iMG every day that I had no visitors. I'm not sure what my new value is at 42. It might be 592. I'll need a few days to see if that is the case.
    Posted 6 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Level 47,   Basic iMG 655
    Posted 6 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I demand that Glitch be all things to all people and that henceforth devs be prohibited from making any changes unless every single player approves. Further, I demand that every feature, calculation, policy, procedure, visual style, etc which is not adored by everyone be removed from the game. This way the game will be more fun and we'll all be happy and nobody will get really, really upset if something isn't to their liking. See how easy that was?

    Sorry for the sarcasm, but please. Some people like A, others hate it. Some people adore B, others detest it. Thats how the world works and its good that way. Its fine to disagree. I don't like bacon. Yes, I'm the one.

    Why, however, all the drama and indignation? It makes *my* head hurt.

    </rant>
    Posted 6 months ago by Koftun Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I never had any visitors.  I was at level 22 when the magic rock data was introduced. Here is my collection of data so far:

    Level        iMG
    22             195
    23             210
    24             225
    25             240

    Seems that for me, the amount of base iMG you receive from the rock increases by 15 iMG per level.  However, this formula doesn't seem to work with the numbers from Little Miss Giggles and Windborn, so now I am at a loss.  Perhaps we need more data?
    Posted 6 months ago by >^.^< Subscriber! | Permalink
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