Topic

No No powder

Ok - not sure if this should go in General or Ideas but actually I have been mulling this one over for a while and thought it wise to air my feelings.

First, I love this game, I love this experience and the social elements that this game encourage are probably its greatest feature. Yes there is Beer, yes there is some fantastic debate about religion in the game and the beauty so far is that all have been able to share their thoughts and views in an adult way and get adult responses.

Its in that spirit of adult discussion that I have serious concerns about the inclusion of an item called No-No powder. Its available to see in the encyclopedia

alpha.glitch.com/items/469/

I personally feel that an item that represents drugs and is addictive is a dangerous addition to the game - I really cant put it into words and will accept that I may be being overly sensitive but this item just feels wrong to me. I considered the impact of making this and then selling it - that would make me a pusher.....

Really put this here to gather thoughts and comments from others - to sum up, just doesnt feel like it fits in with the general fun and lightheartedness of Glitch.

Thanks for reading.

Posted 21 months ago by Bob Apple Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I disagree.

    I think it's items like these which give the game it's edge. This game, quote Stoot: "is definitely not intended for kids". It will to have a 16 (maybe 18) age rating. No-No Powder is a fun in-game item, and yes, it might imply something bad, but that's what's funny about it. I remember when people made a fuss about nibbling pork (which piggies *like*) and the mention of 'boobies', which the devs shrugged off because of its simply not even border line.

    Stoot said he got the idea for No-No Powder from Narnia books, btw.

    See also:
    alpha.glitch.com/forum/idea...
    alpha.glitch.com/forum/gene...

    PS. To those who don't know: No-No Powder is an in-game sniffable powder which gives you recurring full mood and energy for a whole game hour, but you die if you don't take more within that hour, and it keeps on carrying on like that. The description says: "Some tempting no-no powder. You know you shouldn't, but maybe just this once...". :) (This is just hilarious to me. Personally, I think it's time to rejoice that *some people* on the Internet are willing to make a game like this. Kudos to the developers of Glitch, from Hburger.)
    Posted 21 months ago by Hburger Subscriber! | Permalink
  • + you die from it.
    Posted 21 months ago by Slokda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it should be replaced by something less harmful. Maybe some kind of green herb that you can grow in your garden. :D
    Posted 21 months ago by Tofu Casserole Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I honestly think No-No Powder serves to send a strong anti-drug message, personally. One sniff of the stuff, and you're condemned to a lifetime of using it - because either you continue to use it to stave off death-by-crash, or you straight-up DIE. And it's not exactly easy to make, from what I can see.

    If you sell it, and become a pusher, you gotta realize that every unit you sell is another Glitch's life trapped into using it. Sure, death is a bit of a slap on the wrist and and a Glitch can come back from being dead, but still, you are quite literally a merchant of death. Can you go through with that, once you're aware of the fact?

    It's a sobering thought, isn't it? Personally, if some kid takes No-No Powder in game, then realizes that there's no way off the stuff without dying and suffering even after you come back, and then makes the connection to the dangers of real-life drugs and stays the heck away from them, then I'd say the item's served an admirable purpose.

    I enjoy the fact that the game gives you the power to create, use, and distribute such a terrible item, and then puts the moral choice of doing so squarely in your lap. The only suggestions I could make regarding No-No Powder would be to make it even more difficult to make, or maybe even add some long-term side effects to people who've maintained an addiction for a long time without going clean.
    Posted 21 months ago by Doc Oblongata Subscriber! | Permalink
  • For my money, I like the way that no-no powder works in the game. Because it DOES have negative consequences and also because no one is obligated to use it or rewarded for doing so.

    (I mean, it means you don't have to eat, and that's a reward, but the consequences are pretty pesky.)

    The beer quest actually bugs me more. It's like a frat-boy hazing thing. And yes, you could ignore the quest, but it never goes away, so it's sort of less annoying to just do the quest. But with the beer, I more feel like the game is forcing you to do it. I found no-no powder was pretty easy to avoid. (Though I'm laughing when I say that because I did, um, explore its effects the last time the game was open. But see, it SUCKED when I crashed, so I think it's pretty well implemented in the game.)
    Posted 21 months ago by clare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hburger - as a complete aside, are you an East Sussexer?
    Posted 21 months ago by Bob Apple Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks, Bob Apple, for posting this. It's something that's been on my mind for months, but I could never bring myself to post anything, because I'm still conflicted about it!

    Like Hburger, I think it is pretty damn amusing; I've taken to viewing it lightheartedly. But as a recovering cocaine addict (quit in '89, and am - frankly - fortunate to have survived that time when other friends of mine did not), there is something jarring about to me. The most jarring thing about it, to me, is that there do seem to be teenagers playing this game and I'm not sure what the subliminal effects of using no-no are for them (or anyone else).

    For one, the only penalty is going to hell, which is pretty easy to overcome. At the end of the last test, I was using no-no non-stop to get through projects, although at times timing it to die right before the new dawn, so that when I got out of hell, I'd recover to full energy. Also, no-no is incredibly easy to make (few compounds needed, so relatively cheap - much cheaper than trying to score the real life equivalent). If you have the skills and are willing to mine away to get your raw materials, it doesn't take all that much to get a day's supply. People do auction it for a ridiculous mark-up (but then, lots of things are auctioned for a ridiculous mark-up, which is another post on supply/demand wonkiness within the game for another day).

    I'm not going to come out and call for a complete removal of it from the game because, as I feel with the questions about vegetarianism and religion and sexualized content, I think that these things are gameplay, not real life, and if it's offensive then there are other games to play.

    But I do wish that the experience of no-no mimicked real life a little more than it does. Make it more difficult to come by. I also recall (or did I imagine it?!) getting some sort of achievement for using so many no-nos in a given time frame, but I can't find that on the achievement page, so, if it's not there, great, if it is: why? What would be really amusing is to see your character go into some sort of tweak mode if you've used some number of no-nos in a row; imagine your character responding randomly to inputs because it's so far tweaked or hiding in its house paranoid. ;-)

    That is to say, it's all too easy to use it currently, with minimal risks (the hell thing is easily overcome) and you can sure rack up XP and currants if you rely solely on it during the game.

    At any rate, I'm more curious to see what others think rather than offering a prescription, so, again, thanks for bringing it up! My biggest qualm is the teens (think of teh children111) and what plans, if any, Glitch has to verify age (or if this is even a concern, or should even be a concern).
    Posted 21 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As someone said earlier, this is the same type of childish reply to something in game that has nothing to do with reality. A person complained about nibbling pigs, I think because the person was a vegetarian or for religious reasons, and got shot down pretty quickly by everyone else.

    In the end, you can ignore that part of the game, if it bothers you. You can also stop playing the game altogether, if it bothers you. If you're a grown up, though, you should probably just get over it, play the game because it's fun, and laugh at all the things in the game (because that's what they've been added for).

    There is no reason to take anything in life seriously (outside of the necessities of life), especially when the things you encounter are obviously meant to be fun.

    It's good to have a talk about it, share our feelings on the subject and get to know each other. Saying that it doesn't fit in or that it should be removed, that's not realistic for a simple item. Maybe if there was something truly appalling, like references to child rape, then we could all agree on it not fitting in. I don't think that creators of the game would be into adding something like that, though.

    The suggestions above for making it harder to obtain or giving a new set of consequences, to make it less appealing, are something to think about.
    Posted 21 months ago by Johnny Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Bob Apple: I am indeed! :)
    Posted 21 months ago by Hburger Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Eastbourner here Hburger!!

    Thanks for the comments and thoughts on the subject - whilst i'm not overly comfortable with it, I wont be losing any sleep over the subject and still love the game.......even if my comments are considered Childish by some.....................
    Posted 21 months ago by Bob Apple Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just as in real life, in the game you can choose to use a mood-altering substance, and pay the price for it. If I really drank as many cocktails as I do in the game, I'd be dead from alcohol poisoning. If I "activated spinach" to get high, I'd die young from cancer. If I ate 250 servings of raw meat in a day, I'd have heart attacks and weigh a thousand pounds. Glitch is just a game, not a health class. It does have some ethical aspects, but each player can choose his own path. If you find no-no powder offensive, skip it. I've been playing for months and haven't touched the stuff yet, though I do plan to, since I've already starved to death thrice since the reset and received a badge for it. Plus, hell has pretty good music.
    Posted 21 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it should stay the same, although I have only tried it once. But I prefer the idea of adding escalating consequences vs. removing controversial elements.

    As a jew who was raised in Texas, I frequently have Hell on my mind, and I can't help noticing what a pissant, no account pleasure cruise Hell is--some players even want to live there!

    There are other threads about what direction Hell needs to go, let's revisit those, especially multiple Hellish levels. And I think we also discussed some other potential negative consequences of too too much much no no...
    Posted 21 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't think having no-no powder in the game is a bad thing. I'm not in the legalize drugs camp, and I am very anti-drug, but this is a game and it's demo isn't kids. So long as Glitch doesn't start marketing to kids, then I don't see the issue. I have 6 kids, they love video games, and there are so many other much worse games out there that ARE targeted to kids.

    That said, I do have a concern with balance in the game. Right now it is far too easy to make no-no powder and maintain a never ending supply. Last test I used no-no non-stop during the whole test. It provides a HUGE advantage over anyone not using it.

    I'd like to see the effects diminish the longer you are on a no-no bender. OR perhaps you can OD from taking too much. Not sure the best answer, but having more consequence to it's use or lowering it's effectiveness over time should be part of it's use.
    Posted 21 months ago by en Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can get behind the idea of No-No Powder's availability being tweaked to make it harder to get, and extra consequences being added for rampant use of it. Take that idea to the idea forum, en, and let's drum up a little more support, shall we?
    Posted 21 months ago by Doc Oblongata Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So THAT'S how you got to level 37 so fast, en! I was wondering how that was possible. No-no powder, here I come!
    Posted 21 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm going to add my two cents here. I don't agree with the humor in many of the ideas Glitch has presented but overall find the game enjoyable. I am going to equate it to experiencing college life. There are some who are adult enough to handle the stress, drug challenges, and sexual challenges, etc. and some who are not. However, we cannot remove all colleges as there are other redeeming qualities of the experience. So although, there are some who find joining a fraternity/sorority fun, some do not and don't hang out with those that do. There are some of these groups that focus on drinking and drugs but most don't. There will always be more than one way to experience life (and MMO games such as this). There should be some way to restrict the entry of some into this game but for the rest of us-I think most of us can handle it.
    Posted 21 months ago by Holly Waterfall Subscriber! | Permalink
  • did i miss something? sexual challenges? thats a whole new debate!!
    Posted 21 months ago by Bob Apple Subscriber! | Permalink
  • .
    Posted 21 months ago by Phoebe Springback Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't think there should be more of a penalty than DEATH, personally. I made light of it, but you'll see, if you haven't already, that when you die in the game, you squish some grapes in hell, and then you come back with extremely low xp and in a terrible mood. You have to eat and drink a ton in order to recover, or, as en mentioned, you can time your hellish journeys to coincide with the start of a new game day, which gives you a full mood and xp refill.

    You do still have to either purchase the powder from someone else, which can get expensive, or make it yourself, which requires Element Handling, Alchemy I, and Intermediate Admixing skills. That adds up to five hours and twenty-three minutes of learning. Then, if I remember correctly, you have to get a beaker, make several other types of powder, get a badge, get some additional recipes, make those, and eventually get the recipe for no-no. In other words, it's not something you just do on the spur of the moment as a new player. It takes a relatively large amount of time and effort to get there.
    Posted 21 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I applaud Phoebe Springback for her applauding of Bob Apple for bringing it up. We definitely want to hear all kinds of opinions and while we think the joke is funny (and we want to have "bad" things in the game and let players decide how to play) it is not very balanced right now.

    As en and zeeberk have pointed out, it is too easy to make and use (once you get to a high enough level) and there are no penalties for long term use. We already have some plans to tweak it (have its effect diminish after repeated use in the short term; have a long-term counter of use per character and give it some nastier consequences at certain thresholds; maybe not give any XP for anything while you are using it, etc.) and maybe we'll bump those up in the priority list.
    Posted 21 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmm... I had an idea for an item, inspired by those detox drugs you can take to purge alcohol from your sytem and make you wish you'd never drank in the first place.

    I call it "No No-No Powder". You can sniff it yourself, or blow it in the face of someone. If they're not under the influence of No-No Powder, it does nothing but provide a brief-but-pleasant tingling sensation (+2-5 mood), and might make the person sneeze once.

    If they are under the effects of No-No Powder, though... look out. Not only does the No-No Powder Rush end right then and there, but you immediately start feeling absolutely terrible (-75 mood) and become Pooped (energy drops to a tiny amount, maybe 10 or so). However, you DON'T die. In addition, the No No-No Powder prevents you from sniffing a new dose of No-No Powder for 24 in-game hours.

    The neat thing about this would be if No No-No Powder looked just like No-No Powder, making it possible to slip some to a No-No abuser who's just run out and is looking for a fix. Imagine the following conversation:

    Druggie: "Aw man, I'm outta no-no..."
    Prankster: "Here man, have some of mine."
    Druggie: "Thanks bro." *sniffs* "OH SWEET GIANTS WHAT THE HECK IS THIS?! THIS AIN'T NO-NO!"
    Prankster: "Nope! This is an intervention! Time to get you clean, buddy!"

    Oh man, how I'd love to do that to a no-no abuser and just watch 'em FREAK.
    Posted 21 months ago by Doc Oblongata Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh for the love of Alph - what have I started!!!!!!! :-)
    Posted 21 months ago by Bob Apple Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A beautiful discussion, Bob.
    Posted 21 months ago by Doc Oblongata Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I myself love the possibilities of an all adult world. I spent all my time on FS having to self regulate my threads so they were not too risque for a general audience and I find not having to deal with all of that quite liberating. I think it is the adult humor and edginess of this game that sets it apart from other MMO's of a non-violent nature and it's what I personally love the most about it. Zeeberk's recommendation of a "tweak" mode after using too much no-no is frickin' hilarious and it would be totally awesome if they were to incorporate that into the game, I can see glitches now playing endlessly with their tinkertools taking things apart instead of fixing them or cleaning their houses with a toothbrush. Having hallucinations and or flashbacks where one is spontaneously transported into an alter fantastical dream like world would be yet another possibility of the ramifications of too much no-no.
    Posted 21 months ago by Divine~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No no powder is the only thing so far which does make me feel at a cross roads with. I suppose it is because it does represent drug taking in its own way. There for drug taking is illegal. You can quiet rightly say drinking beer is also a drug, but then you can quiet legally become a alcoholic [well in the UK you can]
    May be some sort of "policing" of no no users could be used. Tong in cheek of course. I don't mean we need to get a police offers uniform in our wardrobes!
    But what about if you got caught using it you might also get sent to some where like the interrogation place Stoot took that spammer to [ so funny. I almost want to miss behave just to go there. Fab idea by the way ] I know people have said many times they don't like the idea of rules/policing/punishments etc, but it might add to the whole taking drugs is bad. Especially if by getting cough you were also fined maybe?
    Saying all that It might just add to the fun of taking it, so I might have typed all this out for nothing! Either way personally I won't be looking to make no no powder, but if others do.....each to their own:)

    Before someone else comes out with the "it's a game, it's not real" the topic has asked for opinions :P
    Posted 21 months ago by Misha Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, this is all very thought-provoking. I'm with the people who have suggested more consequences for its use; I especially like Divine~'s ideas.

    I popped on mainly to say wow and thank you to zeeberk for sharing that part of your personal life with everyone in here...your perspective definitely carries some weight, to my way of thinking. And it's great that you have been clean so long (from the cocaine, not so much the no-no powder lol). Hearty applause!
    Posted 21 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm getting a kick out of all of the games references that I've come across while testing the game. 1st time I got an award for being a "fondler" had me LMAO big time!

    I am glad that there will be more consequences for using the likes of No No powder and wish there could be more for the alcohol drinking...maybe your little glitchy person could be a little harder to control (like when you accidentally push the alt button (instead of the space bar) while holding down an arrow button - UGH!)

    But, all in all...I love this game and can't wait to see what else the Devs have in store for us to test.
    Posted 21 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just think we should add a little blotch of white around the nostril of anyone using it. Maybe a little twitching.
    Posted 21 months ago by Fizio Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have nothing against the presence of no-no powder within the game. I strongly agree with that: "Glitch is just a game, not a health class." (glum pudding)

    Like most of the items, it becomes what we do with it. Use of no-no powder is finally very common in the game right now and when we talk about it, in the forums or in the chat, we don't talk about it like a dangerous or a forbidden thing. I have been reassured and encouraged to try it, reading how useful and common it was in the forums threads.
    It's like death. You know you can go through it. There will be short-term consequences, but you know you'll deal with them easily.

    That's why I agree with more bad consequences for no-no abuse and I really like Divine's ideas about that because it adds some fun game experience (but still annoying for the no-no user)
    A few other ideas for no-no crash or OD: perception alteration with everything blurred or moving (or with things like tv interferences), not being able to recognize other players (displaying them as blank avatars), mixing areas designs on a confusing way; you could also be forced to move slower for a moment, have little blackouts moments (but like a few seconds with the screen turning black).
    To enhance the forbidden feeling, there could be some restrictions like no authorized auctions on it (only one-to-one sell) & having to sniff it in an empty area (displaying the sniffing to players around).
    Posted 21 months ago by Moumoushou Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Bob-I meant in college not in game. The whole point is that this is a game. If it starts getting too much like real life with drugs, and references to stuff, that in my mind, teenagers enjoy (yes I'm an older fogey), then I will stop playing.
    Posted 21 months ago by Holly Waterfall Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I just think we should add a little blotch of white around the nostril of anyone using it. "

    And here I always thought you sprinkled no-no powder in your shoes...
    Posted 21 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink