Topic

Why so addicting?

I am sitting on my couch on a Sunday night, enjoying some beers with my lobster boyfriend (who didn't understand the concept of tanning oil, it actually comes with SPF 12 and can prevent sunburns, even though it is called tanning oil) and wondering, why am I still thinking about Glitch?  I am not big into video games, I am a college student who spends her time either studying or partying and up until recently enjoying my fair share of one night stands.  Why can I not stop thinking about this game?  What initially attracted me to this game is the style of art, but although I try, I can't keep using that as an excuse.  It's addictingly fun, and even though I have some problems with the game *cough - not enough Quests - cough*, I still really enjoy it and when I'm not out enjoying the finer aspects of college life I am thinking about this game!  Why????

Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • @Shepherdmoon: I agree with what you are saying.  It is always the responsibility of the individual to control themselves, as it is the responsibility of parents to control their children.  It is not up to Tiny Speck, or tobacco industries, or alcohol brewers to change their product.

    @striatic: "its akin to asking quadriplegics to figure out for themselves how to walk up stairs, because the vast majority of people have no problem with it".  It's not like that at all.  Someone who has nerve damaging making it physically impossible for them to walk will never ever have the ability to walk up the stairs by themselves ever again (not fully true, recent medical studies are showing that regenerating damaged nerves is possible) but either way that is impossible.  But people overcome addictions all the time.  It's not physically impossible to overcome an addiction, its just hard.  You are comparing apples and oranges.  And either way, it is extremely hard to get society to adapt to people with disabilities in wheelchairs.  Those people who are confined to a wheelchair are essentially left to cope for themselves just as an addict is expected to have the ability to cope with their addictions.
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is a "not that into the game" crowd amongst the long-time testers.  Not being able to play for stretches definitely helps its longevity for me.  If I play any game for long stretches, I tire of it much quicker.
    Posted 19 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But all this is beside the point.  When I said addicting I just meant it lightheartedly, just as people say lots of serious things in a lighthearted manner.  Don't take everything so literally!  Obviously, addiction can be a very serious problem.  The point of this was not to address the serious aspects of addiction, but a less serious and less life altering form!  This game is "addicting" because I like to play and can't wait until its open again, but its not an "addiction"
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think most of us knew you meant it that way, if not all. :)
    Posted 19 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I knew that.... I was just responding to striatic... and it ended up being a really interesting conversation which helped keep me a little entertained while I waited for this highly "addictive" game to open up, which is cool in my book :).... OK, this whole thing killed about 3 hours (off and on).... someone else come up with something controversial for us to discuss to kill the rest of the time...
    Posted 19 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • LOL Shepherdmoon. I'm in the category of obsessed I think. Hmm, that sounds a bit creepy.
    Posted 19 months ago by tweetypie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, next topic on the list is stem cell research and same sex marriage.  Lol that could start some really nasty debates!
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You probably don't want to get me started, Laurali :).... plus I would require that you phrase any of these controversial topics in terms that can be related to Glitch in some way...
    Posted 19 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Which other emotions should your emo bear have, and why?

    Big Glitch houses: flashy symbols of upwardly-mobile bourgeoisie excess, or practical peat storage facilities?

    Dev jumping: casual sport or crippling addiction?

    Oh crap... back to square one...
    Posted 19 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So stem cell research = new player generation? 
    Marriage in Glitch would be somewhat amusing (and some couple is bound to meet and marry because of Glitch if the natural course of social games holds true)... though we're all essentially genderless to begin with - it's not like you select one at start up, it's all about your personal appearance preferences.
    Posted 19 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oooh in game marriage would be cute.  But it could get messy with the current divorce rates!  Anyone want to marry me?  I have a hot Glitch!
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Some people have an internet addiction.  Should TS have made their game only in a non-internet version? 
    Posted 19 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic: are you playing devil's advocate or genuinely concerned about disability rights in re: addiction?  if you're playing devil's advocate, i think you're in sticky territory, as the nature of ANY game is potential addiction, if gambling is your drug of choice.  if alcohol, or sugar, in my case, is the drug of choice, living is a series of tests, choices, whatever. i don't consider myself  disabled, and i don't consider coca cola responsible for my addiction.  if you're truly a an advocate of people with disabilities (ala the stairs analogy), i'm curious how the ada addresses, or should address, mmos or other online games? or, are you really just against the word "addiction" in this context, as a sort of PC thing, the way i'm really against the word "gay" as in "that's so gay?" (no sarcasm meant). 

    no one has to play glitch, or any other games. my guess is that there are plenty of us here that struggle against the urge to play All Of The Time (I'm one of them) when the game is open, and i've certainly pondered whether this is an unhealthy addiction. i find the discussion of why fascinating. 
    Posted 19 months ago by greenkozi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "if you're playing devil's advocate, i think you're in sticky territory, as the nature of ANY game is potential addiction, if gambling is your drug of choice."

    hm .. devil's advocate? well i don't actually think tiny speck is attempting to build a video lottery terminal which happens to be socially acceptable due to a cool artwork skin and witty, literate in-game copy. i do, however, perceive that to be a possible though unexpected side effect of the game design.

    perhaps all games might have that possibility - tho i'm not sure i'd go with you all the way on that - but some have it much more than others based on their design.
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • sure, i think most games could do it: solitaire, freecell, poker, chess for some, tetris, i could go on with various kinds of games- single player and multi-player.  when my grandpa's freecell disappeared from his computer, you should have seen that 92 year old go through withdrawls. he made me sit in front of that computer for an hour fighting with windows trying to get it back (i failed. mac for the win). 

    i don't know what it is about games, and i think it's different for different people and differnet games. competition? the need to zone out? pretty pictures? game theory? the way each time you play is slightly different/puzzle aspect? mental challenge or total lack of challenge?

    i agree with you- it's a a possible and unexpected side effect of glitch. and tetris. and solitaire. and charleston chews. and starburst. and diet coke (ok, maybe that's intended). i just wonder about your motives going down the suicide/parapalegic/blaming the developers route.
    Posted 19 months ago by greenkozi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "i just wonder about your motives going down the suicide/parapalegic/blaming the developers route."

    coz that's the sort of thing that really does happen with immersive world type MMOs.

    and because yes, i think certain games play up their more addictive aspects in order to make more money, and that this can have devastating effects on people who are susceptible to intense addiction. despite Tingly's protestations of impossibility, i've seen this happen to people i know, particularly surrounding world of warcraft. it can be awful stuff for people who aren't able to control compulsion.

    Glitch itself? well, you've got stoot here half jokingly saying that if the game is addictive, it is working. you've got people agreeing with that, as well as other people bringing up operative conditioning as a serious explanation for the game's addictive qualities.

    on the other hand, many aspects of glitch - particularly the timer based skill system - are clearly intended to reduce grind and better fit into players' lives.

    i'm guessing the idea is that Glitch will be a game playable in multiple modes, from immersive to casual. that's great and there are benefits to both ends of that spectrum and everything in between, but if the immersive and addictive elements are coupled too tightly, problems do arise.
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One thing I really like about how Tiny Speck is handling the payments is that they're not tied to any of the aspects of the game that might be considered "addictive". The only things that have been announced as being available for purchase (that I'm aware of) are:

    1. Visual changes to your character (Clothes, features)
    2. Quicker movement (Teleportation)
    3. A voice in the direction of the game (Votes)

    None of those things, which the possible exception of teleportation, I guess, are really related to anything that could be considered operant conditioning. I think Tiny Speck is doing whatever they can to demonstrate that they aren't trying to make a quick buck off of people who get in over their heads and need to play more. They'd rather build long-term loyalty by creating a welcoming community that encourages new players to join and enjoy themselves. Money doesn't get you a "quick fix", so to speak, it gives you a greater say in the direction of the game (we assume), and a greater ability to make your character unique.

    I'm not arguing that there aren't aspects of the game that could be considered addictive, @striatic, but it could be argued that just about any game has those aspects to one degree or another. At least Tiny Speck is trying to make it clear that they're not trying to monetize that aspect of their games. (I'll refrain from naming the companies out there whose entire existence is pretty much based on that strategy.)
    Posted 19 months ago by Chronicler Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that the episodic nature of Glitch at the moment is adding to the 'addictive' effect, in the same way as occasional rewards in conditioning.  When it is full-time it will be less compulsive I would imagine.

    There will always be those who are unwilling to control their behaviour, so I have no doubt some will become 'addicted' in the future.  However, addiction can be overcome and those people should be encouraged to seek help, rather than penalising the vast majority because of such problems.
    Posted 19 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic: I've played World of Warcraft for several years (I don't anymore).  I know a lot of people who have lost their lives to addiction of that game.  It's nobodies fault but their own.  Alcoholics have to walk past alcohol when they go to the grocery store, cigarette smokers see cigarettes in Walgreens, everyone with addictions have to find ways to battle their addictions.  It's up to them to be a strong enough person to handle it.

    Not saying this is true, but even if Tiny Speck or any other company that makes games is trying to get their players addicted to the game, then its up to the individual to be strong enough to resist that addiction and not just become another dollar sign.
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the "it is no one's fault but their own" garbage hasn't improved the overall situation very much over time.

    it is no one's fault but your own if you fall off a ladder, but that hasn't stopped manufacturers from designig and making progressively safer ladders that perform just as well as their predecessors.

    this isn't about diminishing individual responsibility, but about taking care in considered, humane design in an area where immersive MMOs have traditionally had problems.

    maybe sometimes systemic problems demand systemic solutions.
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The informal definition of the word addict simply means one who is a devoted adherent or fan of something. ie: I am a total music addict. I do believe that is the context of which it was meant. In FS I started a Faunaholic X-treme contest and a great time was had by all while we shared stories much like those in the You know You're a Glitch Addict when ... thread. That being said, there were in fact some people who suffered sever depression, some to the extent of suicidal thoughts when the game closed. It was not the game in and of itself that caused it, it was the feelings of isolation due to the fear of losing their friends and on-line community. And I don't think it is an appropriate analogy at all (except humorously) to relate Glitch to an Operational Conditioning Chamber any more than one would relate it to hearing a song you like on the radio. Yes you get a slight endorphin rush when you hear your song or earn a badge and get to read the funny stuff about it but that is hardly the same thing as say drug-withdrawals. Add to that the fact that TS indeed does not have anything in this game design which encourages the expenditure of real money to get that next big rush and I really don't see a problem here.  

    Edited to add: I did have to open a side tab while reading this thread so I could check to see if there was a surprise mini-test I was missing without losing my place. Okay I admit it, when the sign goes away that is a big rush, but it is a rare and transitory thing hence isn't by definition addicting in a long term sense. 
    Posted 19 months ago by Divine~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The game doesn't create the behavior.  Whatever is going on with the person does.  Oh, I guess Divine~ just said similar. But I'm posting this anyway!  I mean, people get obsessed over chess...
    Posted 19 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have from time to time become addicted to games, never to the extend that it would take over my life and I couldn't work or do the things I had to, but to the extend where I wouldn't do other things that are important to me like read or spend time outside. I would love for a game to offer a feature that allows me to self-impose a daily time limit. I could set it to whatever amount I want and once that time is up, I'd get logged out (there'd be a 5 & 10 minute warning leading up to that). Of course, whether I'd have the self control not to go in and change the time limit is another matter. :)
    Posted 19 months ago by FrankenPaula Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Yes you get a slight endorphin rush when you hear your song or earn a badge and get to read the funny stuff about it but that is hardly the same thing as say drug-withdrawals"

    it isn't the same thing, but surely you wouldn't deny that there are people who have become legitimately addicted to immersive MMO games like everquest and or world of warcraft.
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I deny it.  The obsession to the game is a symptom, not the disease.  It may look like my problem is a runny nose, but the cold bug is my problem.  The runny nose is just an outward manifestation of the real problem.  (I don't think I expressed this very well.)

    How about this, it's like trying to control a fire by pointing the hose at the flame instead of the burning wood.
    Posted 19 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Tingly: "The obsession to the game is a symptom, not the disease" -- Completely agree, I think you expressed it perfectly.  Some people have things in their lives that they need to overcome.  For instance I have Seasonal Affective Disorder.  It has been a huge struggle for me to make it through the winters because I get soooo depressed.  I still manage, even though medication and treatment have never helped me.  Some people have other mental disorders that they need to overcome.  Addicts are no different, they need to get the proper treatment to keep their addictions under control.  Help is available to someone who is an addict if they need it.  And it is a personal struggle, just like everyone else needs to overcome their problems to function in society, addicts do as well and are no different or more special than anyone else with any mental or physical disorder
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that once the game is live 24/7 my current constant obsession with it will drastically diminish, and my involvement with the game will be more like it has been for other games in the past that I have greatly enjoyed: Stage I: I will play it for long periods of time and dream about it every night... Stage II: I will get bored of it and need a long break from it.... Stage III: I will come back to it and try it again, only to find something new that peaks my interest and starts the whole cycle all over again. Currently, this cycle is not allowed to progress, because I can't play long enough to reach stage II.

    On another note, I think that Tingly has a potentially valid point: those that get obsessed enough with a game that it becomes their entire life and they become suicidal without it, may have so many problems in their real life that the game itself is holding them afloat. Games are certainly a wonderful escape: even more so than movies and books, since they last longer (in the case of the first) and are more interactive (in the case of both). If life is so horrible for you that your favorite game is the only thing you find joy in, then certainly the loss of that game or the permanent death of your character you worked so hard to build up will seem like an earth-shattering event. I do use games as a bit of an escape from the disappointments of real life, so I understand this to a point, although I am not even close to that level because I have real things in my life that hold me together (primarily my child, who is, when all else looks lost, my only reason for existence).
    Posted 19 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the addictive game is not a "symptom". the symptoms are, you know, *actual symptoms* like social disconnection, avoiding responsibilities, depression, suicide, etc.

    the addictive game is more like the match that sets the wood aflame, and just because you limit the flammability of a house doesn't mean that it is a smart idea to start fires indoors. the game is a trigger that activates the underlying condition, not a symptom.

    that is the very real worst case scenario but i don't want to get totally hung up on convoluted metaphors or worst case scenarios.

    please allow me to approach this from another angle..

    you might say that immersive MMOs have a bad reputation for generating slavishly addicted players sitting at computers in the dark talking to people half way around the world instead of their families.

    that statement is almost certainly inaccurate, but might it make some business sense for tiny speck to brand glitch as something other than that?
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hi striatic. It seems like you think MMOs are problematic. Do you have any solutions, or is your point that all MMOs are bad?
    Posted 19 months ago by magic panda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't see that TS is branding Glitch as "insanely addictive" or providing "hours of immersive gameplay" or any of that tired crap you see on other MMO sites.  All that stuff is coming from the sincere exuberance of the players, there isn't even a squish of it on the main Glitch site.

    I propose this marketing slogan:  Play Glitch. When it's ok. And not too much.
    Posted 19 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Hi striatic. It seems like you think MMOs are problematic. Do you have any solutions, or is your point that all MMOs are bad?"

    arrrrrrg! no.

    .. and i've been listing multiple solutions along the way, including some things glitch already does.

    @Nanookie i agree that it is the players driving that angle, not the developers. sort of like when i mentioned that the devs aren't aiming to create a neat looking and cleverly written video lottery terminal but they may end up unintentionally doing so.

    however, the branding isn't solely based on the messages the developers put out in blog posts and interviews. it is also based on on the public reactions of its players and word of mouth, and that is based on the gameplay itself.

    so if the game is primarily "insanely addictive" and primarily pushes "hours of immersive gameplay" .. then that is the tired crap that you will see glitch associated with as word gets around.

    otoh, doodle jump conquered the iphone app rankings by including the word "addictive" in its title, so obviously that tired crap works.
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • (sorry, I really can't resist... even though I know it's throwing kerosene on a fire)

    singing... so that's what this game is... you're inside their thoughts... come and make them bigger... and we'll play for a long while...

    Enter: Super-Speed Announcer Voice... *Caution: This game make bring to light compulsive and/or addictive, anti-social, or obsessive behavior. Consult your mental health profession should you exhibit any of the following warning signs... lack of sleep, change in diet, change in personal relationships and/or the urge to nibble, pet, or squeeze objects not normally intended for such purposes. This game may contain content designed for mature audiences, please consult your sponsor if necessary. As with any MMO, diet or exercise program, please consult a physician to see if you are healthy enough for a change in habits... remaining seated for extended periods can have serious side effects such as weight gain, muscle cramps, and deep vein thrombosis. Prolonged contact with a computer can also lead to serious injuries such as eye strain and carpal tunnel syndrome. As always - please play responsibly. If you think you have had one too many, call a friend and surrender the keys.

    There... everyone happy? Did I miss anything?
    Posted 19 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • LOL. As someone who has an absolutely non-addictive personality, I think this whole conversation is hysterical. 

    And Trav, I think there has to be something in your disclaimer about loose bowel movements. It seems drug commercials always mention something about loose bowel movements...
    Posted 19 months ago by Essie Kitten Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Okay, not only is this 

    Enter: Super-Speed Announcer Voice... *Caution: This game make bring to light compulsive and/or addictive, anti-social, or obsessive behavior. Consult your mental health profession should you exhibit any of the following warning signs... lack of sleep, change in diet, change in personal relationships and/or the urge to nibble, pet, or squeeze objects not normally intended for such purposes. This game may contain content designed for mature audiences, please consult your sponsor if necessary. As with any MMO, diet or exercise program, please consult a physician to see if you are healthy enough for a change in habits...

    From Trav,  F'ing hysterical I think it's a keeper. I can tell you now though that it will have an opposing effect of what is the intention of the anti-addiction group and yet would cover the Tiny Ass should it need covering, though I don't think it does. 

    ETA: Maybe a little tweaking, such as change antisocial  to something along the lines of compulsive virtual social behavior ....
    EATA: The whole thing is hysterical, but I'm looking at it from a marketing standpoint.
    Posted 19 months ago by Divine~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hi striatic. I wasn't trying to be frustrating or flippant. I think I understand where you are coming from. I just am unsure if there are good answers to be had.

    And I was honestly surprised when you said you had already offered multiple solutions. So I went through and read everything that you wrote, and as nearly as I can tell, you a) want developers not to purposefully build in features that would trigger addictive behavior, b) want TS not to use language about addiction in marketing, c) like the timer-based skill system, and d) want the developers to make the game "fit into people's lives"

    To me, those are still pretty vague. And I'm not dinging you on that, other than to point out that solutions to this problem are hard.

    I have a friend who wasted years of his life playing WoW. And I'm sure we've all read the occasional news story about someone forgetting to feed their infant or other such horrible thing while playing an immersive game. So again, I think I get the concern.

    Where I differ from you is that I think that this type of risk is largely intrinsic to MMOs. In order to make an MMO successful, you have to make it compelling. And it is difficult to know how to draw the line between compelling and addictive. If it were easy to create an MMO that was compelling and yet had no risk for addiction, I would be all for that. I just have no idea how you would accomplish such a thing.

    If your point was merely that we should all be careful not to make light of game addiction, sure. We should do that.

    Or if your sense was that there were specific elements of gameplay that you thought were harmful, I would be ok with that discussion. For example, maybe you think it's problematic that pigs will die unless you feed them.

    But instead, I get this sense that you have a less specific but nonetheless urgent concern.

    Perhaps you genuinely feel that glitch has crossed the line into being dangerous. Or perhaps you just feel that people are making light of a serious issue, which is understandably frustrating.

    If it helps, I don't think anyone here (players or TS staff) actually thinks that addiction is funny. It's just the kind of thing you say among friends (these potato chips are like crack!!) I think we all agree that the game should strive to fit into your life rather than taking it over completely.
    Posted 19 months ago by magic panda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm just gonna lay it out instead of going in circles anymore on this.  Thinking that the game created the addiction is an unhealthy position for the people in need of help to take and is potentially dangerous to them.  They should get the care they need to discover the root of the problem and get it treated.  If you think otherwise, educate yourself.  This is health, not the debate club.  Now for what I was gonna say before I rudely interrupted myself...

    Games don't cause psychological problems as handsoaps don't cause people to contract OCD.  Becoming compulsive over a game is evidence of a psychological problem, a symptom.  There is something about the person that caused it, not the game.  Take away the game or the handsoap and whatever that something is is still there.  Changing the game to help the problem makes as little sense as saying that I should have done something to keep Nanookie from stalking me. *shakes fantasy fist*

    The funny thing about games that advertise that they're addicting, it makes me not want to try them.  I read it as, 'you'll spend hours upon hours per day playing it.'  But I don't waaaanna spend hours every day playing any game, so I pass.
    Posted 19 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +100 to Tingly.  No matter how well written and advertised, a game is not going to create a problem in a person who is not already suffering from a problem. 

    In my grandmother's day, people flunked out of college because they compulsively played the card game Bridge.  She told stories of women in her dorm who skipped classes, lost sleep, ignored all friends except other people who compulsively played the game with them. 

    These people were playing a game that had a significant impact on their social life, their material life, and their emotional health.  It was a card game.  For current college kids, the card game of choice seems to be poker.

    There is nothing new about games being used by people with problems to escape those problems.  There is nothing new about games making people's problems more visible.    And there is nothing new about people blaming the game for "causing" the problem. 

    My life has included someone close to me being addicted.  The main thing I learn while finding out how to best help them is that working too hard to protect them was unhealthy for both me and them.  If I cared more about solving their problems than they did, then I was overstepping my bounds, and crossing over into theirs. 

    While it's compassionate to be concerned about others, you need to talk to someone yourself  if you are focused on structuring someone else's environment so they can't hurt themselves.
    Posted 19 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I promised myself I wasn't coming back to this enably enabling thread of enableness, but I have to say one more thing:

    Tingly is actually stalking me, no matter what he says. Look at the guy, he's a semi-colon, he often follows me; see, there he's doing it again!
    Posted 19 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's true. :-(
    Posted 19 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Tingly: you are so right!
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If it problem was the games and not the underlying addictive personality, then EVERYONE would get addicted to games.  But they don't.  For instance, I have more of an addictive personality than my sister and because of that I get sucked into games like this.  Last test I invited her on Facebook and she thought it was cool and fun and really enjoyed, but she has not asked about any more tests/checked any forums/thought about this game at all, etc.  Because she isn't the type of person to get addicted to anything easily, she is able to carry on with her life as normal and just enjoy the game as something fun while it lasted.

    @Tingly: You are sooo right!  Thanks for finding the words that I didn't find!
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • doesn't anyone here see problems as multi-faceted, and solutions as multi-pronged?

    like, just because addiction may require an underlying condition doesn't mean that it is a good idea to set up triggers for that underlying condition all over the place and assume things will work themselves out. coz they won't.

    we have fire codes for buildings *and* we have fire alarms *and* we have firefighters. we don't, as a society, say "it's their own damn fault if a fire starts up at their place" because that would never work out well for anybody.

    additionally - we all know that doctors treat symptoms as well as causes, right? we are aware that sometimes adequate treatment for underlying conditions are sometimes not available or are unreliable or only work over long periods of time and that yes, treating symptoms is a sensible course of action?
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @stri - Hey, how ya doin', few questions and comments.

    1) What specifically are the triggers which you feel TS has set up in this game ? 

    2) On Fire : So the point is redundancy is good ? not seeing how this connects to the topic  .... Where I live, if your house starts on fire you better be able to put it out yourself .. sometimes self-responsibility is not optional. 

    3) I believe in the genre of medicine where one prevents or cures the underlying causes of the disease rather than simply masking the symptoms or at best applying a temporary band-aid.
    Posted 19 months ago by Divine~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "1) What specifically are the triggers which you feel TS has set up in this game ?" 

    ok. the main one in common with other MMOs with similar problems is grind, where constant play is rewarded with constant reward. you've also got gambling based elements in there.

    but c'mon, i never stated that TS purposely set those up to be triggers for addiction, just that there is likely to be unintended consequences of such features, consequences similar to those found in other MMOs.

    "2) On Fire : So the point is redundancy is good ? not seeing how this connects to the topic  .... Where I live, if your house starts on fire you better be able to put it out yourself .. sometimes self-responsibility is not optional." 

    where i live, if a fire breaks out there is pretty much no way you're going to be able to put it out yourself. sometimes self-responsibility is not an option.

    and yes, redundancy is good. this relates to the topic because other commenters here have said [or at the very least implied] that since the responsibility is entirely that of the player, no attention to addiction should be paid in the game design.

    "3) I believe in the genre of medicine where one prevents or cures the underlying causes of the disease rather than simply masking the symptoms or at best applying a temporary band-aid."


    as does *everyone*. please read my comment above if you have not already. there is no "rather than", there is "as well as".
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @stri -

    1) On Reward : The only constant reward that I see in this game due to constant play is laughter, if that is an addiction, then yeah, I have it, Please don't "fix" me. 
        On Gambling: The only gambling type thing in the game that I can think of is The Spinning Wheel. Do you really think someone is going to have an addiction trigger set off by a win of a music block over a bean ? Okay there is the rube, he's a little iffy if you keep trying and the payoff can be pretty darn good, But lately the biggest losing bet is that he will talk to you at all...

    2) On Fire : Touche'

    3) On the medical : if by *everyone* you mean you, then glad we agree :) 

    ETA: After rereading your response. On 3. I don't think we do agree completely. I'm more of a fix it right kinda gal and treating symptoms just doesn't work for me. 
    Posted 19 months ago by Divine~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 1] currants, houses, expensive items, favor, leveling etc. the game has lots of virtual rewards beyond laughter in quite the same way as other MMOs.

    gambling goes beyond spinning wheel. anything unlockable, or anything that drops randomly like gems or super harvests or harvestable trees versus unharvestable ones. good deals at auction. there are a ton of random things that give a ton of little hits.

    but ultimately it comes down to glitch being similar enough to other MMOs to expect similar outcomes.

    3] damn. so while attempting to fix root cause or if fixing root cause is impossible .. you would forego treating any symptoms, such as immense pain? that's hardcore.
    Posted 19 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @stri - I am not a doctor - I also am not a patient, I won't even take an aspirin. Yes, hardcore. 

    ETA: Before any body can jump on me with the you're just lucky you aren't sick line. I have cured myself of migraines, stomach cancer and celiac disease. 

    EATA: I usually so eloquently put this as " I don't do doctors"  
    Posted 19 months ago by Divine~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Games don't have triggers.  People have triggers.  Triggers can and do trip from anything.  *flips the light switch 503 times and goes to bed*
    Posted 19 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nail on the head, Tingly!
    Posted 19 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There are aspects of the game that can act as triggers, but I still stand by my previous point.  Alcoholics see triggers whenever they go to the grocery store (alcohol), people trying to quit cigarettes can see triggers whenever they step inside a Walgreens or any gas station.  These products are not removed because certain individuals see the triggers and cannot turn it down.  It has always been the duty of the addict to control their addiction.  If someone needs help, there are plenty of places to receive help handling addictions.

    Also, I do not like the fire analogy.  Fires are pretty much always started by something out of the persons control, and not by their own choice.  For example, forgetting to turn off the stove is not a conscious decision to catch your house on fire, electrical problems may not be apparent to the homeowner, especially someone like me who does not have any knowledge of electrical things, etc.  Not many people wake up and make the decision to catch their house on fire.  You are comparing apples and oranges.  Addicts consciously make the decision to return to their "addiction" time and time and time again, but someone who's house catches on fire just had a mishap.  They are completely different situations.
    Posted 19 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not to revive any arguments, but I just happened on this article about farmville and the sunk cost fallacy, and found it really interesting and was reminded of this thread and so I am sharing!

    youarenotsosmart.com/2011/0...
    Posted 18 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
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