Topic

Are the Devs really being fair?

I understand it was way too easy for me to destroy entire islands before the switch, I get that.  I understand that's it's only fair to everyone to have balance so that people don't have to run around combating me just to be able to harvest goods.  Cool.  However, I really do feel like they pushed it way to far towards another extreme.  I was ok with it at first, I can poison two trees every 6 mins which amounts to about 50 planks and 20-25 earth every 6 mins, if I am dedicated to harvesting, however all it takes is one person to drop some antidote on my dying tree that I just spent money and time on and I still have to wait 6 mins before I can start the process over again, leaving empty handed and out of the money 1 jar of poison costs, also my mood has been wiped out.  This is obviously not fair.  If you don't see the frustration in this I'll make a point of the next test to follow around everyone trying to thin out bean trees and antidote them all, it's really bothersome.  I liked Zaphod's idea that poisoner's guilt shouldn't hit you until after a tree has died.  I hate to keep bringing this up but my game is based around a lumber company that can't get lumber except by finding the random spots that regenerate and by buying from other players.  What's going to happen when large amounts of planks and earth are needed for a project?  I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.  It should be balanced.  

Posted 20 months ago by Briar Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Both parts of the argument can be reduced to a matter of distance. If you stick your face to your monitor close enough all you see are pixels. 

    There is one level for this discussion which is the political level: the same crowd that complains about the auctions are the same that want more rules in the game. Those who want a free market want a game free of rules. This seems very similar to the left vs. right political debate, and I am guessing this is the reason people get so worked up over this.


    Now if you distance yourself from the problem there is a second level to this issue. The level of multiplicity vs. unity. In that sense, the only complex system we know for sure works amazingly well is nature. In ecosystems the only key element that makes life possible is variety... not rules, but variety. The more species the more sustainable life becomes. And I believe this works the same way for other complex systems such as the economy or a MMORPG.

    My point here is that we should encourage different styles of gameplay. We should welcome the do gooders and the bad dooers as well. Those who want to plant and harvest, and the ones who want to deforest and kill. We should let them coexist, and eventually they will balance each other out on their own. It makes for a far more interesting gameplay as well. As long as the devs keep an eye on things to make sure they don't spin out of control (this is not nature after all and things need to be fine tuned still)
    Posted 20 months ago by Yaya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Fortunately, there's no easy way to give another player currants in this game.  Nor to exchange RL money for currants.  I really hope those boundaries stay in place.  SL is not a place I spend much time, partly for that reason.
    Posted 20 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How about removing the guilt of poisoning trees, but put in a hard cap that a single player can only poison one tree per street per game day. That would still give some balance so a single player can't destroy a substantial area by his/herself, but would also allow for a larger community effort to clear a street for whatever reason. I mean, we have that for piggy abductions already, and it seems to work pretty well.

    Going another step, perhaps if a street were to be cleared of all trees by a group of players, every few minutes a random tree would spawn in one of the empty patches. Maybe at this point the poison would also carry a mood penalty, which would require a more and more organized effort to keep the street clear of trees. It could still be done, but at some point it would take a constant flow of players who have enough available mood and have not poisoned a tree on that particular street yet to clear the new ones. Balanced AND scalable.

    I am a fan of the earlier suggestion of a skill or ability for players to dig for earth from spots that are not specific to trees. Perhaps the community garden plots could also be dug up for earth? Every time I wander through one of them, they are either empty and dry or full of the remains after crops have been picked. Allowing anyone to dig up some earth would at least get the mess cleaned up and ready for someone to use to plant something.

    I am also a fan of a tree species that would allow the harvesting of planks. Or maybe a skill that would allow the player to "forage" for planks when in a suitable area or on a forest street.
    Posted 20 months ago by Shwan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • IRL there are plantation forests like bamboo and pine that are planted and harvested solely for the resources that they provide.  Perhaps there could be a "pine" tree that grew quickly, and could be harvested and replanted in one action. 
    Posted 20 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @windborn I believe stoot said they were planning on making a wood tree.
    Posted 20 months ago by Yaya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really think folks are missing a crucial point here.... in the re-planting. Everyone discusses the poison, chop, dig, replant cycle... but replanting in this case is actually counter-intuitive. If the end goal is dirt (and it is for many in relationship to this topic), replanting simply means someone else has to kill the re-planted tree. So does randomly spawning trees.... both solutions make the problem worse, not better. Part of the problem is the people who insist something MUST be planted if there is a dirt patch.
    Posted 20 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • if people are 'insisting' that trees be planted when they come upon a dirt patch (as happens on every new street that opens as soon as it opens), i wonder how much of that is related to that seedling quest? unfortunately, the heavy toll taken on resources all does tend to go back to what is required from quests or projects. for many items, the balance works out.  for trees/earth/seedlings not so much.

    i've said it before, but since Shawn brought it up just now, +1 to divorcing trees from earth.  much of the tweaking people are suggesting for trees wouldn't be needed if the gardens coughed up dirt instead.


    but i also like the idea of wood trees for those lumber companies.
    Posted 20 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • or a skill that would turn item x into planks
    Posted 20 months ago by roderick ordonez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Travinara, i don't think that every patch has to have a tree in it.

    that said, there is a finite limit to how much earth is needed to support projects.

    there is no finite limit to how much, say fruit and spice, is needed to support cooking.

    i've said in the past that the areas closest to projects should not be planted, and that a lot of thought should go into whether or not a tree should be planted somewhere.

    but for the most part, for the vast majority of patches, a tree is best. in terms of supporting gameplay variety, anyway. since there are a number of different options for what you can do with spice and fruit .. and fewer options for what one might do with lumber and earth.

    also, while replanting *does* make it difficult to get at earth again, it *also* makes it easier to get wood. so replanting isn't the worst thing ever, even from the pure "lumber and dirt" perspective.
    Posted 20 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "or a skill that would turn item x into planks"

    Item X = Plankton.
    Posted 20 months ago by Holgate Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My solution to the dirt problem would still be to tweak peat mastery so that the mastery skill gives a decent chance of getting earth or loam when you shovel out a peat bog.  It's not like there's a serious lack of peat bogs out there... and each peat bog can be harvested 4 times.  Give a 25% chance to get 3 earth when shoveling a bog with mastery and I strongly suspect that the driving force behind of the need for tree poison would go away, with the rest of it being taken care of by wood trees.  And it would make shoveling out peat bogs a more desirable way to spend your energy (I tend to see an awful lot of full peat bogs).

    Personally, I'm surprised they introduced tree poison and didn't just allow you to use your axe on any tree... it should take a ton of energy and mood to cut down a full health, living tree, but that option should be there, IMO.
    Posted 20 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am not sure why they added tree poison instead of lots of work to cut down a tree, Blitz. We had axes at that point, but could not use them on healthy trees, only dead trees. So the poison was a way to get the trees to "dead", instead of allowing healthy trees to be killed (or even just pruned, another possibility).

    I don't like the special "wood tree" solution, either. The notion of adding a new item whenever the dynamics are borked is the wrong idea. It's a bandaid, and the game dynamics are going to fill up with bandaids. We HAVE trees already. We need more of them (more tree-plantin' spots), or we need less need for the planks and dirt.
    Posted 20 months ago by clare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The joy of the game is that there are no rules.
    There should continue to be very few rules - I find the ones that exist are mostly there to keep the game from crashing.

    Tree killing was dramatic and maybe a bit over the top but the attention garnered from it probably kept it going longer.

    Let people play their own way...better now in beta than later because the devs now have a chance to find a way to make it balance better. There is no "right" way or "wrong" way to play.
    Posted 20 months ago by Mimi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like the complexity, layering, and in-built tension of a patch being the core of trees (and planks), dirt, and loam. 

    I also think it's funny to camp out on a side street, and poison trees/harvest planks to make patches for players that need help with seedlings and/or patch digging, but can't take the mood hit I can given my level and resources. And I like planting up those patches with the tree of my choice too.


    There's an idea--let planting a tree act as an antidote to poisoner's guilt. 
    Posted 20 months ago by ingrid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "There's an idea--let planting a tree act as an antidote to poisoner's guilt."
    +1 for style and fitting
    But... doesn't really solve the problem of poisoning two trees and having someone swoop in antidoting them. You are stuck with the guilt but now have no plot to plant in.

    Posted 20 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Another way to balance poisoners guilt would be for there to be an effect from tree planting/petting/watering.  Like maybe you're vine-bound to one spot for a minute and a half.

     I wish that most in-game object interactions weren't guaranteed to be somewhat positive. Pretty durn likely positive is cool. Like singing to butterflies. That's an interesting reward balance, though with a clear downside as well.


    What if a piggie did something interesting when he turned down your nibbles? There's a piggy fart comment--what if it encased you in a cloud of stink?



    It would be awesome to retain that riskiness while still having the free-form "win free" style of game.


    The rook. The rook. What happens with the rook?
    Posted 20 months ago by ingrid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • People were complaining about a lack of danger in the game.  Now people are complaining about the tiny bit of risk involved in poisoning a tree and having someone else apply antidote.  Live a little. 
    Posted 20 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  This thread convinces me even more strongly that there needs to be a de-coupling of fruit/spice/egg trees (food-type) from the earth/foam/planks resources.  We need a pine kind trees to get planks/foam/earth from. Then there can be patches that only grow the food type trees, and patches that grow trees which are chopped down for planks, and then you either remove the stump so the patch makes foam/earth. Or you let it grow back for the tree for the planks.

    The whole poison thing really doesn't fit in this game. I think that's why it's causing such conflict. The game is about growth and community. Poison just doesn't fit in with that.
    Posted 20 months ago by Tibbi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You want us to live a little?!?!?!?!

    *panics*
    *puts paper bag over head*
    Posted 20 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • People were complaining about a lack of danger in the game.  Now people are complaining about the tiny bit of risk involved in poisoning a tree and having someone else apply antidote.


    I am pretty sure those are not the same sets of "people". 
    Posted 20 months ago by clare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This thread convinces me even more strongly that there needs to be a de-coupling of fruit/spice/egg trees (food-type) from the earth/foam/planks resources.  We need a pine kind trees to get planks/foam/earth from. Then there can be patches that only grow the food type trees, and patches that grow trees which are chopped down for planks,


    I am entirely on the opposite side of this fence.

    I think that tension should remain. We don't need more kinds of trees. We need more patches. There are not currently enough patches to support all the demands that are made on them. (For fruit, beans, spice, bubbles, gas, earth, loam, and planks... all of these things.)
    Posted 20 months ago by clare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Fun realistic lesson in the end I guess. There aren't enough trees to support demand... where have I heard that before? I for one am glad TS is keeping a lurking eye on the topic, and headed down their own direction. With the various play styles, we as people will never 'agree' on the game concept. I don't think this is a build/grow endlessly game... I think it's a build/grow endlessly game with some complicated resource balancing requirements. It's far better than the 'build a forest, harvest lumber till empty, move on' games.

    Editing to add: More patches doesn't solve it either, since someone will come along and plant.
    Posted 20 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • shhexycorin:  :D

    clare: agreed.  The devs refer to these adjustments as "balancing" for a reason.  It's impossible to please everyone in these situations, because everyone wants to be playing a slightly different game. 

    The entire plank issue could be solved by putting magically-regenerating plank spots on ten or twenty more streets, for example, or by creating a short-lived tree which gives 500 planks when it's chopped down... but where's the fun in that?  No one wants a game completely devoid of challenges. 
    Posted 20 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "There are not currently enough patches to support all the demands that are made on them."

    in fact there are, but only assuming community based organization of the landscape. community based balancing.

    clearly this impossible, so devs to the rescue yet again : ]
    Posted 20 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the entire plank issue could also be solved by, you know, having a bit more patience with the game world's plank production : ]
    Posted 20 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, sometimes I think people are just too friggin' impatient and that's the problem with the dirt/tree stress. But it's more complicated than that. Because, again, the projects put players in competition with one another, rather than cooperation. So "the community" is not trying to finish the project and maintain other resources. Me, the self-absorbed player, is trying to contribute more than other players.

    Though I think that was one of the 4/5 that you agreed with me on. :-)
    Posted 20 months ago by clare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 1: we do need more things involved with the projects to foster community. Maybe the rewards increase exponentially for each person based on how many players work on a project? So recruiting becomes a goal?

    2: we need more types of trees, including wood trees, not fewer types.
    Posted 20 months ago by Murri Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In response to anyone who has ever suggested that poison doesn't belong in this game:

    Please remember that trees can also exist in people's homes, and home owners should have the option of changing around the items in their homes as they see fit. Poison is the only way of getting rid of a tree in your private home that you no longer want so you can do something else with that patch--I now regret planting that bubble tree as I almost never use bubbles, so next time the game opens I want to get rid of it.. I'm not harming anyone by doing this since it's on my own private property, so no-one should have a problem with that.

    Even if you don't agree that trees should be able to be killed in public places, you must admit that it's ok to do so in your own back yard... This seems like a natural spot to mention once again that we should be able to move around as many piggies in our homes as we want (remove the 1 piggy hogtie per area per lifetime for private homes).
    Posted 20 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Holy crap!  I could hardly stand reading through this.  Though I agree with testing the edges of a game and everyone playing in the manner they like, there are and should be limits.  Not to be a nazi but just in order for people to live in the same proximity, since there are obviously people around who believe their purpose in life is to find whatever button you have and push it repeatedly until you go postal on them.  Hats off to zeeberk and striatic for managing great answers despite the button-pushing.  
    Posted 20 months ago by Hab Subscriber! | Permalink
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