Topic

[Stoot Response Inside] Will my "Currants" transfer into "Imagination"?

Or will I be starting over from scratch?

Posted 11 months ago by Bashere Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • From here LINK.

    Q: [Can we go back to imagination and xp and currant conversion, for a sec?] 
    A: Converting to Imagination
    The amount of Imagination that existing players start with will be a factor of their Currants and their Level at the time of conversion. Some portion of your Currant balance will be taken away and replaced with Imagination (you may be able to convert from one to another after, with a large amount of friction). Then you'll get an amount of Imagination which is based on your Level.

    However, we will be converting on a curve: being a higher level or having more currants now will mean you start with more imagination, but the differences will be reduced. An example might help explain it:

    Imagine three players before the conversion: Fred, who is level 10 with 1,000 currants; Mary, who is level 30 with 50,000 currants and Sally, who is level 60 with 1,000,000 currants. In the example, Mary has 50x the currants that Fred has, while Sally has 20x more currants than Mary and 1,000x more currants than Fred (the differences in levels seem less, but because each successive level requires more XP, the ratios between their levels are actually similar to the ratios between their currant balances).

    After the conversion,  rather than 1 : 50 : 1,000, the differences between them might be more like 1 : 10 : 100 or even 1 : 5 : 10 (it depends on the curve and we have a lot more math to do before we'll decide that). Bottom line: if you are ahead now, you will be ahead afterwards, but not as far ahead. 
    Posted 11 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But what if you're L10 with 1,000,000 currants? How does that compare to a L60 with 1,000,000 currants?
    Posted 11 months ago by Bashere Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't want my currants to go away.  :<
    Posted 11 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not all of them will go away.  A "portion" of them will be converted to imagination.  
    Posted 11 months ago by Scarlett Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I bet after the conversion, you'll actually need imagination more than currants, at least for that day.  I personally will want to not only expand my land to suit my needs, but upgrade my energy and mood to be at similar levels to where they were pre-conversion.  
    Posted 11 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What makes you think they won't already be at those levels?
    Posted 11 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So, if you get to keep your 'stuff' after the conversion but not your currents. And, assuming XP is almost more valuable than currents when it comes to determining imagination. Would it make sense to buy a ton of stuff with my currents and then donate all of that for XP before the conversion? What will put me in the best position when imagination comes into  play...
    Posted 11 months ago by Rayray47 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, don't wish for too much advantage.  The fun is playing. I would hate to log in and find that I could "imagine" everything in the game and there was nothing left to work for.  I don't think it makes sense to buy a ton of stuff and donate now. If that turns out to provide a good return on imagination, you can always do the same thing once the system switches over.  Some of your currants will become imagination and some won't. And when you learn the new ways, you'll know whether to convert your remaining currants via donation (or whatever other mechanism) at that point.  In the meantime, my strategy is to enjoy the game as it is now because it will be changed forever very soon.
    Posted 11 months ago by Miel Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Agreed, Saucelah. From my understanding, imagination will become the new most valuable thing, as this this will be our "currency" to be able to do things.
    Posted 11 months ago by Oristia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @lovintnt: because we know that imagination will be used to purchase upgrades to the size of energy and mood pools, it just seems logical that I won't have level 60 energy or mood after the switch.  Perhaps we will get to keep the pools at the size we have earned, but I don't really think that would "grandfather" in well with the new system and would create imbalances where those of us at or near max level have a lot more imagination to play with for the rest of the game's lifespan than those that are not as "experienced"  

    So in short, critical analysis with a dash of logical reasoning makes me think that.  And I've been right about all my other predictions that I came to the same way -- so I trust Tiny Speck to work with critical analysis and a dash of logical thinking.  
    Posted 11 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So, it is your assumption that in addition to the "curve" of transferring XP to imagination, more experienced players will also likely take a hit in the mood and energy tanks.  It seems to me that would be one place they could allow the experience (and the loyalty that generated it) to pay off.  TS needs to be careful not only to avoid making things too difficult for new players, but also (and I would argue especially) to avoid penalizing the loyal fan base.
    Posted 11 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, your XP which was converted into Imagination is what got you your big tanks to begin with; if you were to keep the big tanks and also convert all the XP into Imagination then you'd be getting a benefit that no new player would be able to get.

    If you want big tanks, then you can use your new Imagination to upgrade them first off.  If you want 256 garden plots right away, then you might have to make some choices about what's most important.
    Posted 11 months ago by Scarlett Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, I don't know why it would be penalizing to have us all play the same game with the same mechanics.  I will have more imagination to spend than a level 10.  Therefore, I will probably have bigger tanks after I spend imagination than a level 10.  

    See?
    Posted 11 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it will work like this:  Say Player A is level 50 with 500,000 currant, and it took a certain amount of effort to get to that point.  Player B, who has put in less effort, is level 25 with 250,000 currants.  If both players were to start the game over, with the new system, and each put in the same amount of effort as they did before, Player A would end up with Y amount of imagination and Player B would end up with X amount of imagination. So in the conversion, Player A will get approximately Y amount of imagination to work with and Player B will get X amount of imagination to work with. 

    It doesn't matter whether Y is twice as much as X, because the amount of effort required to get to each point stays roughly the same as it took each player to get to where they were in the old system.  What changes is that there is no fixed stopping point.  It gets harder and harder to get more imagination, but you will never reach an end point.

    For this reason, Y amount of imagination may not get Player A the same amount of energy, mood, house space, etc. that they had as a level 50 in the old game.  But whatever it gets them, new players will have to work just as hard to get.  And Player B will have to work just as hard to get from X to Y as Player A did to get from level 25 to level 50.
    Posted 11 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's an excellent explanation and I am bookmarking the permalink for the next time this comes up.  
    Posted 11 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hope many people read Splendora's explanation :)

    Existing players are not going to be "penalized" at all: the new system is just going to be different than the current one. Everyone is free to speculate and choose their own course of action but I recommend not bothering trying to strategize too much on how to gain the biggest advantage post-Imagination because (a) we're going to do our best to account for everything and set each player up as close and possible to where they would be if the game had always worked in the way it will work after we switch, (b) even if there was some specific maximizing strategy (e.g., you'd be "better off" to sell all your stuff and save currants or donate everything to max XP or try to hoard as many materials as  possible, etc.) we wouldn't tell you and if you guessed the wrong one, you'd be worse off. So, the best idea is to do the things you enjoy :)

    Also, since it has a come up a few times, I should note: there WILL still be levels in the new system, but the importance of levels is going to be de-emphasized in the UI/profile pages, etc. You can think of them as a lifetime measure of imagination earned (as they are now a lifetime measure of XP earned). 
    Posted 11 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yay! I love the happy leveling kazoos!
    Posted 11 months ago by Knitomaton Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Im very curious as how it'll be but sounds like fun to me. And awesome explanation.

    Bashere, would you mind editing the title of the thread indicating with Sr. Stoot answer. Spread the word, yeah?
    Posted 11 months ago by Tumahura Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Haha, currant conversion circumvention (which is probably a dumb idea) here I come!
    Posted 11 months ago by Rook Subscriber! | Permalink
  • interesting.
    and yes I am in the "PLEASE dont Penalize the long time players camp" (even though I am not in that category) -which I have posted about before.
    I must be lacking Imagination already - as this conversion thing still leaves me very befuddled.
    maybe if i re-read Splendoras (woot for Splendora) explanation enough times it will sink in .. eventually..maybe.... or not ... o_O .
    Happy to see Stoot throwing in answers . ;)
    Posted 11 months ago by serenitycat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ha!! I just can't wait :) !!! Guess I have to though :(..  In the mean time, just playing the same as always.  I'm sure TS won't "short" anyone on value earned.  Don't worry, play, be happy!
    Posted 11 months ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Glad to hear there will still be levels, if only because I'd like to think I'll still be able to gauge someway of determining new, or newish players for gifting/donating (maybe the profile page will show extent of imagination rather than level, I don't know). 

    One of my little pleasures in this here wunnerful place has been continuing the Sandbox group idea of donating gift-bags of goodies to pre-level 10ers. I gift stuff to everyone regardless of level, but I like the idea of giving a wee bonus to the newer players. 

    And talking of philanthropy, when I'm gathering stuff just now, it's also with a view to making stuff to give away on a grand scale - a kind of Where's Molly? idea is forming - in this "limbo" period (since I've been loving how people are making tools for free, essences, giving away cubimals etc :)). 

    Imagination seems to me to be a means to go forth and multiply the collaborative and gaming opportunities within Glitch. This is my first MMO, and if the developers can increase the likelihood of people like me (not really gamers - Sims is as far as the obsession when, and even then only the original Sims) being drawn into the ways of Ur - to provide a truly limitless game - then that can only be a good thing.
    Posted 11 months ago by Molly Bloom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And then there's the unintended consequences...So play what you enjoy!
    Posted 11 months ago by MeherMan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just want this to happen ASAP. That is all.
    Posted 11 months ago by shipwreck Subscriber! | Permalink
  • After the conversion,  rather than 1 : 50 : 1,000, the differences between them might be more like 1 : 10 : 100 or even 1 : 5 : 10 (it depends on the curve and we have a lot more math to do before we'll decide that). Bottom line: if you are ahead now, you will be ahead afterwards, but not as far ahead.  ~ stoot barfield 1 week ago.

    Existing players are not going to be "penalized" at all: the new system is just going to be different than the current one. ` stoot barfield 1 day ago.

    These are two conflicting statements, made a week apart.  What Splendora outlined, and you endorse, is not what you originally stated right here in the forums. 

    Is the system still so undefined that you're not sure?  Which is it Stoot?  Did you have a change of heart, or are you just trying to cloud the issue of arbitrarily leveling the playing field?
    Posted 11 months ago by Mablem Tiipot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • " (b) even if there was some specific maximizing strategy (e.g., you'd be "better off" to sell all your stuff and save currants or donate everything to max XP or try to hoard as many materials as  possible, etc.) we wouldn't tell you and if you guessed the wrong one, you'd be worse off. So, the best idea is to do the things you enjoy :)"

    Is it just me, or did anyone else hear Stoot cackle maniacally after this statement? BWAHAHAHAHA *smithers*
    Posted 11 months ago by Cait Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I suspect its something other than the false dichotomy you outline, Dr. Hackenbush.

    To me those statements are consistent.  One of the biggest fears expressed in these forums has been that we would be reset and everyone would start over again.  Time after time, staff have said that they are doing their best to avoid that.

    The new system where your experience and your currents are melded into a new "imagination" pool sounds just about right.  None of us are going to be penalized.  At this point, (a few months before the actual implementation) staff believes there will be a conversion, not a reset.  The conversion will take into account the effort each person has put into the game.  Each player will be in the same relative position as they are now with regard to all other players after the conversion.  

    So I don't see any conflict in the two statements, and I don't see any change of heart, and I don't see any statement about "leveling the playing field"..  
    Posted 11 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, "Windborn", I hate to break it to you, but just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.  Please, stop setting yourself up as the "final answer" on every subject.  You're not.

    Unlike you fanbois (or girls in your case) I'm actually trying to give the company constructive advice.
    Posted 11 months ago by Mablem Tiipot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is how far ahead you are relative to other players, and there is how far ahead you are relative to how far you can go.  My understanding of stoot's comments is that the former will stay roughly the same, while the latter will change.

    While there is no absolute limit to the amount of imagination players will be able to earn, there is a limit, say, to how much imagination a player following an optimal strategy and playing 24/7 could gain in one year.  So let's call that amount of imagination Z.  It will take much, much more effort to get to Z than it has taken in the current game to get to level 60.  So, Player A, who will go from level 50 to having Y imagination will be much further from Z than they were from level 60.  Thus they will be "not as far ahead."  However, it will take just as much work to get from X to Y as it took to get from level 25 to level 50 -- so Player A will be just as "far ahead" of Player B as they were before the change.

    If you play the game for competition, your standing will remain roughly the same.  If you play the game for personal achievement, there will be much more to achieve.
    Posted 11 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Having diminishing returns for game mechanics is pretty normal Dr H. It allows relatively "unlimited" game play while also preserving balance.

    Someone with 1.5Mc will still be ahead of any one Glitchen with merely 500Kc, but 3 people with 500Kc will be able to do more in total than the one player with 1.5Mc

    Also, network effects (e.g. a more complete skill tree, greater accumulation of basic resources, more developed social network) make it likely the 1.5Mc toon will have an ongoing systemic advantage over the 500Kc crowd.

    stoot's point in my view is that if your at 500Kc, there is no need to sprint toward any arbitrary goal.
    Posted 11 months ago by Sturminator IX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Indeed, it sounds like stoot is trying to solve the "I'm at level 60 - now what" problem.    Along with making XP actually worth something.   I think levels and XP probably date back to the beginnings of design and are elements that were put in to give the game a basic framework.   "Everybody has levels and XP" someone said, and now that's being revisited.  I salute TS for having the guts to re-imagine elements that are boilerplate from gaming 101 - it takes guts.  
    Posted 11 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Golly, Dr. Hackenbush. No reason to be so snarkly. Windborn was simply giving her opinion. The fact that so many players appreciate her simply means she has earned their respect. And yes, I am a "fan" because her unbiased suggestions, opinions,  or perspectives are always well-thought out and articulated without resorting to personal attacks or inflammatory language. 
    Posted 11 months ago by GreyGoose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Look, those of you trying to defend, or rationalize the change are free to continue to do so.  The bottom line is - yes, it's a game.

    But, it's a game that has goals, or "winning" if you will.  (have you all forgotten that each time you leave the game it implores ("wait, you were about to WIN the game!).  Tongue-in-cheek as that is, even the company itself has set the "game" up as a competition and if you think it's anything else than you're not paying attention to the mechanics.  The exit message doesn't say "Wait, you were about to have FUN!"

    This issue isn't just about whether or not SusieQ gets all of her currants and XP into some fair sort of conversion value.  It's about one simple thing - TRUST.

    I trusted that when I "played the game", and set out to achieve the goals set up by TS for me (and some that I made for myself) that I would be able to achieve those goals and that the company would acknowledge that with rewards and by extending the game play beyond our accomplishments.

    Instead, the company has decided to completely rewrite the rules, and based on the official statements, the intention is to "slow down" or even reverse the people at the top for the benefit of the new players coming into the game.  How is that not to the detriment of experienced players?

    I don't see how I can be misinterpreting that.
    Posted 11 months ago by Mablem Tiipot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Greygoose.  I'm sorry if you prefer the passive/aggressive approach.  That's just not my style.  And, I wasn't speaking to , or engaging "Windborn", but she chose to put herself into the role of speaking for the company, which she does not.

    PS. Don't try to derail the main point of this thread by turning it into a popularity contest. 
    Posted 11 months ago by Mablem Tiipot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's kinda the reason they went back to beta... and offered refunds for people up to a certain date after announcing the delaunch. They were upfront about core game mechanics changing drastically.

    As far as "winning"; it is only a competitive game if you choose to be competitive about it.
    Posted 11 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Um, Dr. Hakenbush the whole point of the exit remark "Wait, you were just about to win the game." is that it is impossible to win at Glitch. That you can play to infinity and never win at Glitch. You can't win at Glitch any more than you can win at life.

    Yeah you can have more stuff and higher levels but is that really winning? Only if you perceive it to be winning.

    That being said, I was concerned like you about the change penalising high level players. Now that it's been explained better though I see that there is no penalty. Things will be different and being the highest level will be impossible. Is that a bad thing? Only if being the highest level is your goal. In this game there have always been pros and cons to reaching level 60. Some people wanted to race there as fast as possible, some let it happen naturally and some actively avoid it. Some people hoard currants and things, some just collect what they need and some give away as much as possible.

    There is no right way to play and there is no way to win and that will be even more apparent once the change happens. To me, that is completely positive.
    Posted 11 months ago by SkyWaitress Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wait.

    Glitch is about winning? Did I miss the memo about this?

    I thought Glitch was about having an experience, playing with other people, completing challenges, but not 'winning' anything. The only person you compete against yourself in Glitch is yourself, and if you deign to imply otherwise, then you're the only one running the race while everyone else is at the refreshment tent enjoying the experience.

    From what I see... one only 'wins' at a game that has a conclusion. And there is no conclusion, no ending in sight. You can win Monopoly. This isn't about winning, though.
    Posted 11 months ago by Saiai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Dr. Hackenbush: You can take WindBorn's words as you please, but using the quotes around the name is fairly insulting IMO. It's pretty obvious (by the lack of a staff quote icon-thingy) that WindBorn is not speaking on behalf of Tiny Speck.
    Posted 11 months ago by Flowerry Pott Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's not about winning, but to a lot of people it's about getting ahead :P That is, I assume, why there is a leaderboard. So that those who care can see where they stand relative to everyone else.

    A lot of people don't care, and that's cool because they're allowed to not care. The game, as it is now, lets those players enjoy Glitch for hours without even being aware of the leaderboards. I've talked to month old players who've never even heard of it!

    I, for one, do care about my rankings and number of badges and all that 'competitive' stuff :) And the game allows me to do that. So instead of arguing about what the game is supposed to be, I think we ought to let the game be what it actually is :P Which, overall, ends up being a number of different things to a number of different people :) 

    And isn't that a lot better? Means Glitch has a much more diverse subscriber base at least ;) That'll keep it around longer!
    Posted 11 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Funny you bring up leaderboards.

    The xp is capped so countless people share the #1 spot. Locations visited have a couple ahead of the crowd due to bugs or careless devs which many people find unfair, other than that "everyone" can share the top spot. Achievements is a finite set so eventually there will several people who have all of them.

    So who is the winner? I guess you are right, they will tell you if you are *a* winner, not *the*winner.

    I guess the favor leaderboards don't have a cap so they could actually be competitive even in the long run. But they don't seem to be the focus of attention (?).
    Posted 11 months ago by Vic Fontaine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dr. Hackenbush - May I remind you that you are voluntarily playing a product in beta? Tiny Speck has been more than happy to offer refunds to everyone that paid for subscriptions during the period in which it was officially released.

    This is the way all MMOs work. Game mechanics and things change on a weekly, if not daily basis. Perhaps instead of complaining and spewing hatred in the forums you should find something more productive to do with your time? If you're unhappy, then quit playing.
    Posted 11 months ago by zachwulf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've argued with Windborn many times about many things.  

    But I still respect her and am glad she comes in here.  She thinks critically, and even if we come to different conclusions, her critical thinking spurs more effort from me.  

    I prefer considered, critical thinkers over reactionaries.  

    Instead of asking yourself "How will I feel about this change with the game as I know it," ask yourself "how will the game change to make this other change make sense" -- the latter question inevitably leads to more interesting thoughts than the former, and I'd say the latter question is how I've been able to make a few predictions that have turned out to be correct.  
    Posted 11 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Are you talking to me Togger xP? I pretty clearly said that there aren't winners -> "It's not about winning".

    I agree with everything you said, but I just don't think that was my point at all xD I just like seeing that my time and effort put me ahead of a lot of people :P I don't care about being the MOST obsessive :P I'm not concerned about winners~

    And, personally, I do enjoy the favor boards :P Number one for Grendals, baby! If you care to check, my little Glitch is a pirate, and she must acknowledge all the good the Giant of Water has done for her. That makes sense, right :)?
    Posted 11 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @zachwulf - May I remind you that you, as a low level player, benefit directly from these changes?  Come back when you're level 50 and we'll talk.  If you get the chance to level up that far.  I guess we'll find out, won't we?

    As to those who've twisted my words about "Competition" into "Winning", I would say to you that you are missing the point of something that is classified as a GAME.  It is a GAME.

    If you don't want the competitive nature of a GAME (even when the competitive aspect of the game is that you're mostly competing against yourself) then you shouldn't be playing a game.  Second Life might be a better choice for you.  Try taking up golf, perhaps, if you want to understand the nature of self-competition.

    I'm so tired of the standard response on this forum of "If you don't like it LEAVE" or "You were offered a refund".  Yes, both of those are true. But if you've invested many hours into something, as I have with Glitch, it's not so easy just to walk away.  

    For the record, I HAD a subscription, cancelled it after TS went back into beta and the direction became clearer - and I never asked for a refund.

    @"Flowerry Pott":  Gotcha
    Posted 11 months ago by Mablem Tiipot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dr. Hackenbush, you just make me LOL for real. Or should I say "LOL"? *laughs some more*

    Thank you for that! :-D
    Posted 11 months ago by Flowerry Pott Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Dr. Hackenbush - I really do understand your frustration, but the point I was trying to make was that you knew the risks when signing up for this beta product. The nature of the web now has deluded the meaning of the word beta with companies like Google putting out products in a sort of "perpetual beta", but Tiny Speck has made it clear that there's still a lot of rough edges.

    The reason I am not level 50 is  exactly because of what you stated. I purposefully have not invested much of my time and energy into the game yet because the core mechanics are subject to change. It is YOUR responsibility to understand what you are getting into when you invest time or money in any product. 

    As embarrassing as this is to admit, I was one of the first Farmville players. I invested hours and hours of my life into it, and I sunk money into several in-game items. Like you, I really didn't pay attention to the beta label on Farmville and treated it as an evolving, polished product. Month by month Zynga started rolling out "pay-to-win" features that completely undermined and changed all of the hard work that dedicated high level players like myself had been putting into the game. Eventually I left Farmville, and they never offered anyone refunds.

    My point is, it's not Tiny Speck's responsibility to keep you informed of every minute detail they are planning ahead of time or to hold democratic meeting counsels with the tens of thousands of players every time they decide to change something. You have to accept the risk that the game is still subject to serious change. Yeah, they goofed up a little by prematurely coming out of beta, but they did the right thing and owned up to it. I may seem like an apologist here, but I'm really trying to help you understand why it's silly to be frustrated about this.

    How about we wait until the new changes roll out to take our vehement criticism to the forums?
    Posted 11 months ago by zachwulf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is it more of a change of xp to imagination to make all new activities more of a bolt on?... So mostly things won't change that much, most of the current game dynamics are likely to stay and feed in to change.
    Posted 11 months ago by jiva Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Updated the title as requested.
    Posted 11 months ago by Bashere Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @zachwulf.  No, I don't think you understand what "Back to Beta" means.  It was a release product when I paid my subscription - and now it isn't.  Neither you, nor anybody else, could anticipate that.  Don't try to paint it that your mistake with Farmville is somehow equivalent.  For one thing, I would never play Farmville. 

    And don't patronize me.  I have 30 years IT experience.  I know what I'm doing.
    Posted 11 months ago by Mablem Tiipot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Alrighty, but I really think you're projecting assumptions on to a system without any reason to support those assumptions.  

    If done right, it will still take a new player the same amount of effort to get to wherever you are after the conversion, then you haven't lost a thing.  I can't assure you it will be done right, but I do understand that it can be done right, so I will wait until it is done.  

    Or I could be really angry and not enjoy the game, but that seems a bit of a waste.  
    Posted 11 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Dr. Hackenbush - Yeah, now you're just baiting; I'm done responding. Go ahead and be mad, it's not hurting anyone here except you.
    Posted 11 months ago by zachwulf Subscriber! | Permalink