Topic

My Controversial Herb Experiment

Edited:  I would love to know if croppery as a bug has indeed been fixed, and it is herbalism 2 that is giving the bonus yield..  Just a note, herbs that yield 1 shuck 2, and herbs that yield more shuck 1, with a chance of 2:

Plucking Herbs with Herbalism 2 only:

Purple Flower Seed   2
Gandlevery Seed  1
Rubeweed Seed    1
Hairball Flower Seed  1
Rookswort Seed 1
Silvertongue Seed  2
Yellow Crumb Flower  2

Now, with Herbalism  2 and Croppery 3 (shucking is the same)

Purple Flower Seed  3 
Gandlevery Seed  1 
Rubeweed Seed  1 
Hairball Flower Seed  1 
Rookswort Seed  1 
Silvertongue Seed  3 
Yellow Crumb Flower   3

Now, for the analysis of essence first:

Essence of Gandlevery - Bad, the essence is better used in potions, though it does lower mood, which could have use.
Essence of Hairball - Ok 
Essence of Purple - Good 
Essence of Rookswort - Ok, but still better used in potions
Essence of Rubeweed - Excellent 
Essence of Silvertongue - Good, if under 60 and you want to level faster
Essence of Yellowcrumb - Good, if you still have lots of skills to learn

Now to note, only rubeweed is the only great tincture that happens to be one of the bad harvest herbs, assuming we are talking about the essences at face-value, rather than use in potions.  This is at least good news for tinctures, however, they are used in the potions, so:

Analysis of Potions:
Amorous Philtre - This one is very easy to make, given Silvertongue's yields
Charades Potion - Another easy potion, though the buff has been reported to be too short.
Elixir of Avarice - Not overly bad, I am curious how many people desire to use this
Rainbow Juice - Requiring no essences, this one is very easy to make, and has fun effects.
Tree Poison - I am thoughtful of the idea that rookswort being intentionally used to ensure it is harder to get a lot of poisons easily.
Tree Poison Antidote - Gandlevery has a low yield, but at least has a low growing time
Ancestral Spirits - If the Ancestral Lands are ever fixed to be useful at any given time, rather than times when no one is on, this might be worth making. 4 essences make this expensive.
Door Drink - Not overly hard to make, though two are needed to have an effect
Keycutter Tonic - Has anyone found a good use for this potion to rationalize wasting rubeweed essence?
Potion of Animal Youth - 5 essences is a lot, again, the two herbs required have lower growing times
Rook Balm - This has limited function.  I have not used this, can anyone comment on how effective it is comparative to cost?

Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • Because The Developers Want It That Way

    They have all the metrics they could possible want, if and when they decide to rebalance any part of the game. We Glitchen can sit here & theorycraft till the sun burns out but the devs are the ones that decide balance.
    Posted 12 months ago by Sturminator MoOre Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not coincidentally, those are usually the most expensive herbs on auction at any time.
    Posted 12 months ago by Warrender Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I get same results with croppery 1. Croppery 2 & 3 might however, increase super harvest chance already boosted by herbalism 2
    Posted 12 months ago by Ingvar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is that supposed to happen though? I always thought that it was a bug or something and croppery and herbalism aren't supposed to affect each other.
    Posted 12 months ago by Frandroid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Probably a bug, but as far as i know, devs have been silent about that issue.
    Posted 12 months ago by Ingvar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Tiny Speck said in another thread (no I can't quote it right now, something about shucking herbs, possibly in bugs) that they essentially apply an albatross chain to each individually, based on some internal Tiny Speck idea of what "fair" and equitable is. Afaik or as I can tell, it is not a bug.

    What's more, they also said that the random value is the same for a given herb type for a single or multiple flowers, so that one *should be put to rest as well. Some will find the probability favors singles, some with multiples. idk. do what you will.

    Finally, another thread (possibly the same thread, possibly another, I get them muddled) says that *now, croppery does not affect herbs, although it IS unclear whether that only applies to harvest yield or also extends to shucking.
    Posted 12 months ago by Woochi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, the end result is that croppery DOES affect 3 herbs.  At the very least, I am going to modify this post shortly, and note which potions this overall has an effect on in terms of price.  I have some ideas as to how this might affect things, but the hard data will come later.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Kirman - how extensive was your test? Was this only one instance of harvesting under the circumstances noted? If so, that is far from a valid test.

    You would need dozens of samples from multiple herb gardens and harvesters with other variables controlled to reach a valid conclusion. (for example, were any of these fertilized with guano, were they watered once and left or multimple times during growing, was this in a public or private garden? We do not know that any of those factors make a difference, but until we hold controlled experiements, we do not know for sure.)
    Posted 12 months ago by Kookaburra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Staff said: (two days ago)
    I'm pretty sure this was a bug. Not entirely sure, but it didn't seem to make that much sense. So, now Herbalism skills affect your herb harvests and Croppery skills affect your crop harvests.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Does anyone feel like explaining why Rooks, Rube, Hairball and Gandlevery suck?  This seems a bit unfair.

    I have wondered why those suck, too.  Why do I (maxed out in crop and herb) only get 1 seed from each 1 flower?  The only way I ever get ahead in those seeds is if I get a bonus harvest and shuck all the seeds.  Still, in the end, I will only have as many seeds as I have flowers.
    Posted 12 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Those numbers don't correlate to my numbers, and in fact, I honestly think Gardening or some other skill other than Croppery MAY have something to do with it.

    I just learned Croppery 1 this morning, however I ONLY had Herbalism 1 and Herbalism 2 and harvested Silvertongue, Yellowcrumb, and Purple Flowers and got 3 of each with a Superharvest from Purple giving me 6. All of the others I've yet to test. On the other hand, I have Gardening 5 but did NOT have Croppery yet when harvested. So if Croppery affects it, how did I get extras while still learning it?

    Yes I know, Gardening is supposed to only be for Trees, but what if it affects crops and herbs as well?

    Shucking is a tricky matter. With Herbalism 1 I got an average of 1 to 2 seeds, Herbalism 2 seems to set me up for more failure as a few herbs yeilded me no seeds whatsoever, but others gave me 1 or 2.

    It's just plain ol hinky if you ask me...
    Posted 12 months ago by Ayasta Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How many times did you try each herb?  Was that the average harvest for at least 10 plantings at each skill level?

    If you only ran one of each herb, one planting per test, you can't say anything for certain.
    Posted 12 months ago by Tsu Dho Nimh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • For those of you who are doubting, I have run about 100 harvests, from both garden types, and with and without guano.  I have tried multiple people as well.  I am not sure on shucking numbers and failure rates, but I can say for certain one important thing.  Herbs that yield 1 shuck 2 and herbs that yield 2 (3 with croppery) shuck 1, however, it is somewhat common for them to shuck 2 as well, making them even better in comparison.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, to further note, the yields are without fail (not counting super harvest rates) always the same.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I finally realized that if my mood is very high, I'm more likely to get >1 seed from shucking the stingy herbs.  (And I have maxed out on herbalism, croppery, and gardening skills.)
    Posted 12 months ago by Eleanor Rigby Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Interesting.  That could make sense.  I am going to make a note of that and try it out.  How many herbs did you test?
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I, too, have grown and shucked dozens of herbs (with & without guano, though I did not distinguish between the two, I do not believe it matters as far as yield or shucking). I have not done any tests looking at mood, though I tend to keep mine on the low side (yellow and, even, red). I never intentionally raise it and occasionally try to drop it.

    Here are my results (note, this was done in part to compare herb gardens with crop gardens, thus that portion of the table) They're comparable to yours.

    I do have all of the croppery & herbalism skills. And it was in posting the results originally that Louis Louisson & I figured out the discrepancy might be due to croppery as he was not getting the same yield per seed as I was with Silvertongue. (and presumably Yellow Crumb & Purple)

    As for calling Gandlevery "bad"... It's used in several key potions: Animal Youth, Rook Balm, & Tree Poison Anecdote. It's also one of my favorite essences. A bit pricey right now, but when herbs drop back down to a healthy range, I'll probably make good use of it because it's one of the few things in the game that we can use to lower mood and, bonus!, it bumps up energy at the same time. Woot! Not every player has the same goals, likes, & dislikes so what's good for some might not be for others. You may think Essence of Yellow Crumb is "excellent" but, as someone who has learned all of the skills, it's "worthless" to me. And Essence of Silvertongue? Blechackptooey! ;)
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Vera,
    I don't think they are saying the herb itself is bad but just that you plant a seed, only are able to harvest 1 herb (not counting super harvests), and if you werre to shuck it, you'd only get one seed. Therefore making it a never ending cycle where the only way to actually get herbs to use for making essence would be from super harvests.
    Posted 12 months ago by Malus Agricola Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't think so Odracir. Gandlevery will net you 2 essences per harvest (12 plot garden) and Rubeweed only 1.2. Gandlevery is rated "bad" and Rubeweed as "excellent".  So the ratings are based on something else which I assume is subjective opinion. Which is cool! I've no issue with subjective ratings but they are, you know, subjective :)
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So i realized that the face I was making was erasing everything I wrote. Twice.
    Suffice it say, I didn't really see the reference until now. Thanks!

    I was just talking planting and shucking. It seem nigh impossible to get ahead with gandlevery, rubeweed, rookswort, and hairball. Depending on super harvest and 2 seed shuckings is iffy and if you don't get a seed from the sprig then the gravy train stops.
    Posted 12 months ago by Malus Agricola Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With herbalism 2, you will get 2 seeds for each of those flowers. It's not iffy. I've literally shucked dozens if not hundreds of them and always shuck one full stack of five and then one single (half my harvest) and get 12 seeds for my next planting. And I can't just be that lucky.
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hardly ever shuck... instead I buy seeds at auction or get them in the AL. Buying seems better to me because I know what I'm getting--whereas shucking is like playing roulette.
    Posted 12 months ago by Dr.Maud, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As Windborn posted already: The fact that croppery did increase herb yields was a bug and has been fixed.

    http://www.glitch.com/forum/bugs/13369/

    I still don't have Crop1, and since that message, I suddenly get 3 herbs harvest from Yellow, Purple, etc.

    Nothing has changed for those herbs that always yielded only 1 per spot (Rube, etc.).

    For the all other issues, I believe that Vera's list is totally correct.
    Posted 12 months ago by Louis Louisson Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have herbaism 2.  When I shuck, I get on average 1.x.  Sometimes I get 2, less often I get 0.  It happens.  I was just hypotheticalizin'.  If I only had one plot.  And one seed of the 4 low yield herbs, I could eventually have a barren plot. 
      That said, I usually get my seeds from the ancestral lands and I'm with Dr Maud in the sense of shucking being a crap shoot (to continue the gamblin' analogy). 
     
    Posted 12 months ago by Malus Agricola Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I only have Croppery 1.  i don't have either of the Herbalism skills.  Just as an experiment i shucked the following flowers:
    silvertongue = 1
    purple = 1
    rookwort = 2
    gandilevery = 2
    rubeweed = 2
    yellow crumb = 2
    hairball = 2
    Posted 12 months ago by MontytheGeek Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The croppery / herb yields bug has *not* been fixed, at least for me. I just learned Croppery 1 to test this very thing, and I started getting the extra herb on harvest for purple and silvertongue. (Haven't tested yellow crumb.)

    Edit: ... unless they've changed it to be 3 for everyone and it just happened to correspond with my first harvest post-croppery. :/
    Posted 12 months ago by Lorikeet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't know if this is just me but shucking herbs at the start of a new day (when both energy and mood get a full refill) always results in a successful shucking, regardless of how many herbs I shuck at one time.
    Posted 12 months ago by roderick ordonez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lorikeet

    Yes, they changed it to be 3 for everyone. As I said, I don't have croppery, never had it, and all the time only got 2, but now get 3.

    Staff mentioned, the +1 is now linked to Herbalism, but I don't know if it's Herb1 or Herb2.

    I also believe that shucking Purple, Yellow and Silver is completely random between 0 and 2, and we would need much more statistical data to prove any of those theories here (other skills help or don't help / time helps or doesn't help, etc.). That would mean at least somebody who shucks a certain plant 100 times this way and a 100 times "the other way" (whatever your theory is). 1000 would be better.
    Posted 12 months ago by Louis Louisson Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So, as Monty has noted, Herbalism 2 and Croppery 1 are needed for a harvest that gives extra herbs.

    I would like hard data on whether the croppery bug has been squashed, and it is just herbalism.  Anyone out there willing to unlearn their croppery?
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Kirnan, Louis Louisson mentioned in the post above yours that he does not have croppery (which is how we initially discovered the issue) and is no longer having the problem. Granted it's only one person's report, but it is a report. 

    And, I really hate to be so contrary, but I disagree with some of your analysis and have a bit more to add to the antidote.

    Essences:
    Gandlevery is good in that it provides a fairly unique feature - it lowers your mood while increasing your energy. There is nothing else, that I know of, in the game that does this. V.S.Cheese will lower your mood at no cost, which is great, but it's not an ongoing buff and it does not increase your energy. Now, whether or not you find this useful depends. For those of us who would like to slow our leveling, it's at least an interesting option. (for the same reason, Silvertongue is not at all inviting to some).  

    Yellowcrumb is worthless once you've learned your skills. It may be excellent if you're still learning - though that will depend on the cost compared to favor costs. Considering it' currently 800 currants on auction and 10 minutes is 60 favor points at a primary giant or 600c (without shrine powder)... it's not all that great (unless you sell it to buy some favor fodder). 

    Potions:
    Antidote: Gandlevery may have a low yield, but it also requires fewer flowers than any other essence meaning that, with a 12 plot garden, you'll get 2 essences per harvest (while recouping seeds!) where you only get 1 of the other low yield herbs. Also, you only need antidote if something's been poisoned which requires Rookswort which not only takes a longer time to grow, but will only get you 1 essence per harvest with a 12 plot garden. 

    Rainbow Juice may not require any essences, but it does require 3 Yellow Crumb Flowers and a lot of other stuff (105 cherries, 17 eggs, 17 spinach, 13 bubbles, & 23 strawberries or another 69 cherries). Making a few won't be a problem for most, but making in bulk is a very time consuming effort of gathering, and bubble converting, and cooking, and fruit converting, and blending, and potion making. (after taking an entire afternoon to make 100 of the buggers, I'd rather make just about anything else in the game ;))
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh poor vera. you made 100 rainbow potions? wow. that's a lot of work, and a staggering number of ingredients. You have my respect!
    Posted 12 months ago by Woochi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just have to ask, Vera, what did you need 100 rainbow potions for?

    Also, I am thinking of how mood-lessening could be useful, other than slowing down leveling.  I am curious...

    Myself, I would like to be 60 soonish, as it would be nice to easily get Potionmaking 3 when it arrives, along with an increase in the level cap.

    Finally, yellow crumb is expensive, yes, but still fairly cheap when you grow it yourself, given that it has higher yields.  I will be modifying my post, though.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Vera, Lemon juice lowers mood while raising energy (-10 mod, +15 energy?). It takes something like 20 cherries to make a single lemon juice, though. Speaking of lemon juice, you've more or less described the drinks stage of street projects: "If I NEVER have to make another Cosma-politan/Flaming Humbaba again, it'll be too soon".

    The shuck rate with Herb 2/Croppery 3 for Rube/Hairball has been a consistent two seeds per flower, which leads to a geometric progression when you plant and shuck.  Starting from one seed, you get one flower (unless you super harvest), yielding two seeds.  Then you get two flowers, yielding four seeds and so on. After about an hour and a half and a lot of guano, you can take over the community herb garden. Super harvests, especially early on in the sequence mean you take the garden over faster.
    Posted 12 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I made the potions for the Zombie Crawl & party at Cebarkul last Sunday. 

    And that's exactly what mood-lessening is good for. Lower mood means lower xp earnings. You (and, probably most) may want to hit 60 soonish, but I'm not all that keen on it and I know others who feel similarly (for several different reasons). Do you really have to be level 60 to get Potionmaking 3? If so, I'll have to change my tune. Though I'll probably be a bit grumbly about it. 

    And yellow crumb may be cheap to grow it yourself, but if you can sell it for 800c, then the potion is better for selling then for using to speed up skills. Donating 800c worth of meat or milk or whatever you'd buy with the profits would increase your speed more than drinking the potion. At least for the time being. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 800 currants is = to 80 favor.

    80 favor is = 800 seconds

    800 seconds = 13 minutes

    So, not quite 20 minutes, like the essence.  Anyway, why would you not want to level?  I can't see any advantages.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Kirnan - the periodic energy/mood losses are greater, as are teleportation costs
    Posted 12 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As are the costs for icon tithe.

    Another reason I can think of where you want you mood lowered is when you have 100% mood already, but want to drink something with a certain buff (Flaming Humbaba, etc.). Amazingly, the game does not allow you to drink, if you have 100% mood already.

    And boy, although you normally constantly seem to loose mood, it can be a pain to wait until your mood drops.
    Posted 12 months ago by Louis Louisson Subscriber! | Permalink
  • True, but you get more value from coins when you get them, as well as more value from your icons.  So it rather evens out there.  Teleportation costs still end up being kind of minimal in the end.  I guess I can't just see it as all that negative of a situation.  You get favor and currants when you level up, have a greater pool of energy to draw from....and the drawbacks are slight.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "You get favor and currants when you level up"

    Don't you only get that at 30/40/50 after a certain level?
    Posted 12 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't collect that many coins in my game day... I'm not actively trying to NOT level up, but nor am I trying to get XP
    Posted 12 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • After 20, you get currants every 5 levels, and you always get favor, every level.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When potions were first introduced, and Potionmaking III was visible, one of the requirements was Skill Level 61.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The Level 61 was only a placeholder just so no one can learn it at the time. It is the equivalent of having The Impossible Achievement as a requirement so no one is able to learn the skill before it's ready for actual release.

    It is far more likely that future skills require perhaps Level 10 or at most Level 20. 
    Posted 12 months ago by TomC Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Some don't want to because they don't perceive that the costs match the benefits to their playstyle. Some dislike the emphasis on leveling in games. Some don't like that 60 is the end of leveling and want to hold off. Some don't want others to know how much they play. There may be other reasons, but those are the ones that I remember from the various "dun wanna level" threads and discussions. 

    Me, I don't think that costs match the benefits. The energy well? Because I'm not a big crafter or miner, it's rare that I actually have to stop an activity in order refuel. So the energy well isn't really a benefit to me. I do, however, like to socialize & explore and have all 11 icons which I like to keep tithed for visitors to enjoy. (yes, I know, I don't have to, but I like to.) 

    Let's say I tithe a 4 of my icons & teleport 8 times in a day (once for each map teleport, once to each of my saved locations, and to two parties):

    Free energy at level 40: 1490
    Free energy at level 60: 2860

    TP at level 40 w/TP5: 149
    TP at level 60 w/TP5: 286

    Cost at level 40: (8*149)+(4*781)-1490= 2826 (or about 14 awesome stews)
    Cost at level 60: (8*286)+(4*1441)-2860= 5192 (or about 26 awesome stews)

    That's a stack of awesome stews a day that I don't need to carry around or bother with. Not all that big a deal, but as I don't get much excitement out of the leveling process, I figure why not hold it back a bit if I can.

    and, now that I've totally derailed your thread (sorry!).... how 'bout them herbs?
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Herbs!  Yeah.   I still want confirmation on the croppery thing.  We just need someone with Herbalism 2 to post and say whether they get 2 or 3 on the yield.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No, we need somebody with Herbalism 1 to post and say, if they get 2 or 3 (on Yellow, Purple and Silvertongue).

    Then we know if Herb 1 or Herb 2 sets free the extra yield.

    Obviously, most of us posting here have Herb 2 by now.

    I also don't know why you doubt me, frankly. I put a lot of effort into this, getting an answer from the staff if this was intended or a bug, so I was watching my yields pretty closely, and now I get 3 per harvest. If you put aside the strange idea that they changed a rule only for me and my Glitch, we can assume that it changed.

    edit:

    If you want to be really sure, you can also just unlearn Crop1 and see for yourself.

    But as I said, I'd be more interested at this point to find out if Herb1 or Herb2 is responsible for that.
    Posted 12 months ago by Louis Louisson Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Louis, you do have Croppery, right?  Your timing of learning it is too close to when the bug was noted by the devs.  I want someone current, is all.  There is no reason to bring doubt into this.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • He does not have croppery (his skills). 
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink