Topic

First they came for the no-no.

I was not surprised when no-no got nerfed, nor was I surprised when gurly drinks got nerfed, although that one really frickin' hurt me.  What's next, earthshakers?  And why nerf them down to the very nub of nerfdom?   They may have been stupid advantageous in their primeval state, but now there's barely a point to them at all.

Someday little Glitches won't believe me when I tell them about the magical effects of no-no, gurly drinks, and (probably) earthshakers.  They just flat out won't believe me.  And so I would like to propose a special holiday.  Just one day per Glitch year, each of these items gets restored to its former glory.  

You  can even move the days around, as if they are on an ancient, lunar based calendar.  Just give me one day, ONE MORE DAY, of feeling super gurly.  Er...per Glitch annum.

*dab*

Posted 17 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • no-no was really good when you could use the no-no to mine without energy costs and then refine without energy costs and then admix with no energy costs to get more no-no at no energy cost and then use that no-no to continue the cycle.

    you'd get a lot of extra chunks and gems while pushing through the cycle.

    zee problem with no-no, even then, was that unless you used it to make more no-no you'd end up croaking at inopportune moments, which is why i never used it - coz for me the whole point of mining is to pay for activities outside of the mines so i want to get out of the mines asap and no-no keeps calling you back.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love it MaryLilLamb lol you think they can't read pig latin LOL, hell they having talking pigs lol
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • xoxJulie: I agree, probably testing it out. Which is why I wanted to say I don't like it:) Feedback for them!
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Jules, I too think this is possible, we know that's what testing is all about and feedback is needed.  All I hope is that, unlike previous MMO Beta testing, the changes here will remain largely democratic as they have been so far.  I know subscribers will have votes, but that will only be as useful as the choice of subjects put up for voting.

    I am hoping that TS will continue to tweak/adjust etc according to the feedback given, as I too, am pretty nerfed by the drastic changes to the Gurlies etc, so am hoping for readjustment of meeting half way at least, as I stated in update thread.

    As has already been said, taking these kinds of things away in the way they have been just makes some items/actions pointless and this is pretty sad!

    LOL Rm you were typing as I was waffling!
    Posted 17 months ago by ♥joby♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sorry, but as a newb this is beyond awesome - so no-no is a drug miners used to take? But it kept calling them back to the mines, and sometimes they'd mine till they die. I hope you guys sing sweet chain gang songs down there. :)

    Anyone ever get sparkly lung?
    Posted 17 months ago by Rock Opera Jr Subscriber! | Permalink
  • RM +1  It would be fun to almost call it a conspiracy - bitch - complain - whine - snivel - beg - plead - pay off developers in currants - and  Yep as much feedback as we can muster.         

    What would you do if clothes no longer were optional and you had to wear something!
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • SEE WHAT DID I TELL YOU, RIGHT UP THERE.  They won't believe us when we tell them about no-no and what it used to do.
    Posted 17 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • LOL @ RO jr, yes kind of like that.  It still exists but someone up there, decided to add more talc I guess!
    Actually, I never tried it, as I have an addictive kind of nature LOL.  I was going to, just for the badge but now I'm not really bothered!
    Posted 17 months ago by ♥joby♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • so i'm thinking the gurly drink nerfing honestly isn't that big of a deal anymore (don't shoot me) since the leveling doesn't bring nearly as much benefits (no $$). if leveling *is still a big deal for some, the devs have added back xp for new areas, and at the rate new streets have been added, this is readily available.

    i agree, the nerfing seemed out of proportion, just as the gardening was before the devs listened and moved it back up somewhat. and i also agree- earthshakers really don't seem out of proportion. someone with a spreadsheet could probably figure this out, but i make my own, and that is costly energy-wise, so using them isn't probably that energy efficient, it just feels that way. (i'm not gonna figure it out, it's more fun the other way!)

    and yes, the point is, i'm sure, to make this game fun after launch, when a bajillion players will play a bajillion hours. and i'm going to restate a point i made somewhere else- this game is Way More Fun when you don't play a bajillion hours. i had a good time this test for the first time in a few tests, because i played only one-to-four hours a day (which was still too much). try it, mikey, you might like it!
    Posted 17 months ago by greenkozi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Same here Joby, about trying and the badge, but isn't it cute how already no no is getting twisted in our short history.  Of course I always wondered why it was packaged in snow paper.  I still want to hear how RM feels about it if not wearing clothes was no longer optional.   Just goes to prove how very right Nanookie was in posting this thread.  
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @greenkozi: re: leveling: Actually, you now get money again on the 10s (30, 40, 50, 60, 70, etc.) Anyone know if it's just 10s or 5s as well? I leveled up on purpose to a 10 this test cause I needed the currants :D
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • RM , well I thought it was going to be 5s and I sure hope it is.  As I faffed most of last test, I didn't get to find out!
    Posted 17 months ago by ♥joby♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, to 5's...at least 45=15,000 currants. No, it wasn't me. I got 11,900 at 40 though. :) Both numbers from the session we just finished.
    Posted 17 months ago by JW Subscriber! | Permalink

  • @ROjr
    "sometimes they'd mine till they die."


    well, more like they would die if they ever stopped mining by leaving the caves, unless they had enough no-no in their inventory to sustain them until they got back.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm not understanding why leveling = boring or acquiring xp = boring
    What I find boring is the game being slowed down to a crawl for certain game play.

    I'm not a traveler, so getting that back is not something that effects me - tho I'm very happy for those whose enjoyment of the game includes traveling.

    What I found so appealing about this game (besides the cuteness and humor) was that (most) everyone could find a way to play that interested them.
    Some peeps like to travel and earn xp
    Some peeps like doing projects
    Some the tower
    Some enjoy the races
    Some enjoy dying and going to Hell
    Some like using NoNo
    Some like to sing to butterflies for various different reasons
    Some like to do it all
    Etc. etc.
    And then some, like me, just like to cook, bartend, garden, play with the critters, tend to their trees, play in the auctions and yah, sometimes sing to the butterflies to top off a level.

    So what does leveling up "too fast" have to do with anything? It's not like you're "beating" anybody at game play - sure, if you like to compete via the leaderboards, then I guess you could use that argument...but, really, does that mean I've won the game or something?

    Most of my leveling came from cooking and bartending - which now has a huge clamp put on it ... now it all seems to be hurry up and wait - why? For what reason?

    I've had an argument with myself since the close of this last test about being a new player now vs when I became a new player back around March - would it still appeal to me as it is now?
    I can't truly say since I do have some bias knowing what came before the "now". Tho, I also understand that it's still in beta and maybe other things will pop up that peak my interest but, as it stands right now if I were new, I'd probably enjoy learning the game and then get bored...slow game play is what = boredom to me. 

    I debated on putting my thoughts into this thread because I doubt most of it goes along with the theme of this thread, but some of it fits here...so I did lol
    Posted 17 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 granny.you said it all,everyone loves something different ,good for them that this game gives them happiness.As for me I love mining ,do I do no no powder never.do I ever die in the mines ,NO,do I ever come out of the mines YES.coming out of the mines and cashing in with level four east seller gives many in this game a house fast,I do not give and expect back.this is my nature and I do as I see fit with all the currents I make in the mines.I meet lovely folks there and so granny you are so right what is good for one is not for another.This game has so many wonderful things to do that one likes.and I totaly do not like people that put down anyone for doing what part of the game they like.
    Posted 17 months ago by Jellybelly Baby Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree, sgjo: it's not a competitive game, so there's little to no need to stop people from levelling up.  Yes, there are competitive elements, but they're minor and optional. 

    Just to clarify: no-no's benefits were much better a few months ago, and then they adjusted it so  users would only get a quarter of the XP they'd normally get for performing any action.  Now I gather that the buff only lasts for five minutes, instead of ten, though I don't know if the XP was lessened again or not.

    Anyway, the idea of "advantage" is a funny one, since every tester starts out on equal footing, and everyone has access to the same skills, the same quests, the same resources, etc.  Certainly, more advantage is given to the tester who randomly happens across a huge quoin than the one who chooses to sing to butterflies.  Still, what is there to do with that advantage?  If I have a lot of currants saved up, I could potentially buy my way to the top of a street project leaderboard, and then... what? 
    Posted 17 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 and much more SGJO xxxxx
    Posted 17 months ago by ♥joby♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What Granny?
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ xoxJulie ... I am called granny by some...it's part of what my initials stand for - shuttlegrannyjo :)
    Posted 17 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @jasbo, Gotta carry lemon juice to sour you up when your mood is too good!  I get enough from trees that I can almost always use my drinks with no waiting.

    @ those discussing currants for leveling, I got ~15k for level 45 last test. 

    Also, those drinks for mining that we aren't discussing... they last 3 minutes.
    Posted 17 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @sgjo..totally trust you as the expert for gardening but did ya try the guano..made a huge huge difference plus the adjustment they made...a little tweak here and there.  Know it's not the same before the change, but it did seem to make the difference plus I took JW's suggestion to heart and left the guano by the garden plots and only picked up one at a time.  Didn't wanna miss click which I've so been known to do.  Let's see what the next test brings.
    Posted 17 months ago by AlmostSilver Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To clarify (this may not be necessary but might as well), I wasn't making fun of miners, and I understand why you would hit the powder, and why it sucks that the stuff going around now is weak sauce. I just find it delightful to translate this stuff back into RL English and marvel at what a unique culture / history has already come into being.

    OK that's it, when this next test is open, I'm heading to the mines, where the sun never shines!
    www.ciscohouston.com/lyrics...
    Posted 17 months ago by Rock Opera Jr Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well said, sgjo and glum. I've said since I began in March that I love how different folks can play the game for different reasons. Many times. But for those who enjoy(ed) the competitive part (the leaderboards, leveling up), it is getting awfully watered down. Not sure of the reasoning either...I love to compete against myself and the leaderboards (and Joe, I'm after ya! :D ), but I feel that I do an awful lot of helping as well (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Any devs wanna weigh in on this at all?

    Also, thanks for the info re: the leveling currants being on the 5s, good to know. 

    I want my no-no back! ;)
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Our expectation when we reduce the reward for any in-game activity is that players will hate it (at least for a while, maybe forever). But, there are good reasons for doing it (and the reasons are not "to eliminate magic" or "to slow the game down"). No-no and the Gurly Drink are great illustrations of two different cases, both of which will are examples of stuff we will continue to nerf as we move towards the end of beta:

    No-no was so powerful that it became a "global optimal strategy" — it was worth it for everyone to be on a no-no rush at all times. Which means there was no decision to make about it: it always was the right thing to do, no matter what. Which means there was nothing interesting about it; it became something you had to do to play the game. Which is ultimately boring. The no-no rush should be something that is *sometimes* worth it because figuring out when it makes sense and making the (now-meaningful) decision to use it at least has the potential for fun.

    The Gurly Drink is different. Once no-no was nerfed (in two phases), players stopped using the "sing to butterflies while on no-no" strategy and instead discovered that the Gurly Drink would let them sing to butterflies without energy loss. The reward was limitless XP without any cost. That's a pretty big reward! So, of course, people would drink Gurly Drinks and sing to butterflies and then repeat, repeat, repeat. Click, click, click. Move. Click, click, click.

    I know everyone will SAY it is fun because they like getting the reward, but the activity itself has no intrinsic fun (at least after the first few times). When we give an outsize reward for doing something that is not itself fun, we will get lots of people doing something that is not fun. And eventually the desirability of the outsized XP reward will wear off and people will say "damn — this game is boring as hell!" And we don't want that.

    Our plan is to build more opportunities for fun and then shift rewards away from the intrinsically unfun activities and towards the fun ones. The way we do this is all-at-once and in an overcompensating way because then we can see the effects clearly (and can adjust partway back if necessary) whereas if we do it bit-by-bit we have to make many more changes over a much longer period of time.

    I suppose it is possible that, for some people, singing-to-butterflies-while-under-the-effect-of-a-Gurly-Drink was the *only* fun or interesting thing about the game and without that, they won't play. If so, it's a price we have to pay to make a better game for the majority of people in the long run.

    But, if singing to butterflies was, in itself, fun for you, note: you can still do it (it just costs energy)! On the other hand, if you were just doing it to gain XP then fear not: new and more interesting ways of gaining XP are coming.
    Posted 17 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My impression, just from the placement of the links, is that the devs would really like to not emphasize the leaderboards.

    That said, RM, I got a tip about a couple more locations, and I'm coming after you!
    Posted 17 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • (stood responded with something I was going to say... but since it was just opinion I decided to hold back... but there you go.)

    Anywhozits, in regards to leaderboards... you'll still be able to compete on them and the like. You just can't use the same strategies as before.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Generally speaking, I'm ok with these sometime dramatic changes being made now, versus after the reset/post-beta. So if you're going to screw with things, do it now :)

    I'd hate to have an achievement or XP be easy for the first 30 days, and then impossible after a change is made after discovering that something is achieved with too much ease.

    Dunno, perhaps announcing a change prior to implementing it would allow people to take full advantage of an exploit, rather than 'you snooze you loose', or 'you shoulda started playing 30 days ago!".
    Posted 17 months ago by Joe Blow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I guess that makes sense, stoot. Of course...a lot of people weren't using no-no or even Gurly Drinks. Oh well:) 

    LB-o, yeah, I know:) I just liked no-no for gaining currants mainly. A moment of silence for the no-no.....

    (@larky: You'll never catch me alive!!!! ahahahhaha :D )
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A thumbs up for new ways to get XP...we need something interesting.  Thanks Stoot!
    Posted 17 months ago by MisAdventure Subscriber! | Permalink
  • PS..the reason I like to add to my xp is that I have a larger capacity to mill, cook, grind, smelt and tele etc without having to working about going to hell - not because I want to move up on the leaderboards.
    Posted 17 months ago by MisAdventure Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would say, back to the original post, the idea of special event days where things function different is great. Heck, I would love all of the listed holidays to have special game effects or whatever. 

    Some ideas: 
    Lemadan: Free subways and teleportation costs 50% less.
    Sprinkling: Watering can use costs no energy.
    Zille-o-ween: Higher chances of gem bonuses.

    And the month of Doom intrigues me to no end.

    Perhaps The Rook shows up at some point and temps everyone with no-no. "Today it last longer and feels even better. Come on. Try it. You'll like it."
    Posted 17 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ AS...yeppers I went the guano route but because of the way I play I filled 2 - 16 slot bags with fried eggs (Hey! Gotta get my cooking in there some how, ya know :P ) to try to fill at least one 16 slot bag with the poo but ended up with a tad bit over 1/2 a bag...so I cooked another bunch of eggs to get the poo bag filled.
    BUT definitely not fun coz it worked out like this:
    (about) 3 - 16 slot bags of fried eggs (40 stack each) = 1 - 16 slot bag of poo (40 stack each)
    Put it on your garden at 2x per plot and you might as well say that you still end up with about a 1/2 bag of poo to use...grr! 
    Posted 17 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ stoot - well at least my piggies still love me :(
    Posted 17 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You are such a dead head Rascal, I love it.   I was a real dead head fan years ago and it was so much like Glitch, except of course they used real people and, oh well thats another story for another day.     I feel like a lot of questions and worries have been nicely said in this thread and best of all Stoot gave us all honest reasonable answers to our questions.  Thank you so very much.  But two questions, can we please have super strength no no with out all the xp or whatever the advantage to it was I still haven't got to try it and feel like I missed out, just for the fun of it and ditto for the Gurly drinks since we are limited on how many we sing to a day?  Or is still going to be no go no no and sudden silence for butterflies?  More to the point I think no no would be fun to try and I don't care about the xp since new and better things are in wings and it almost seems the color, making the drink,  and name of Gurly drinks was as big a draw as butterflies with unlimited xp.  But I could be dead wrong........   lol     Love the idea of new and even more exciting things coming yippie
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • xoxJulie: In real life, I swear I am a paragon of virtue. Nearly :)
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 LBO

    Just one day...just one day...say it with me now...just one day
    Posted 17 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Of course you are Rascal hence the name lol and I'm a real sweetheart ha hah ha                                 Just one...just one day...just one day   ummm what??? happens in just one day ??
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Stoot: Stop being so freaking awesome or my head will have to explode!

    After reading your last post (following another insightful one in another thread earlier today), I had to pause and have a conversation with my husband about how impressed I was on two counts (and no, listening to me prater on about Glitch is NOT one of his favorite things):

    1) I feel so blessed to have GOD himself (you know, the main one, not that other one... or the other one... but it's great to hear from them too) speaking to us directly about our concerns with such openness and respect for our opinions, thoughts, and intelligence. I have beta tested for one other major MMO game (guess which one), and wouldn't even be able to tell you the name of the head honcho there--the only people we got to hear from were "moderators"--not any of the developers or the CEO. Thank you, Tiny Speck, for being there for us in every way!

    2) I was wondering about the reason for nerfing these items so strongly myself, but Stoot explained it so perfectly--the main motivation behind it turns out to be something that never even crossed my mind, and it showcases how dang intelligent and thoughtful our fearless leader truly is. My husband (who usually doesn't want to hear about Glitch), got excited about this too, and gave a "thumbs up" while asking if Stoot has a psychology degree. I suspect maybe a business degree, which requires some psychology courses as well?

    Specific to this topic: I have sung to butterflies once while on gurly drink. It was fun at the time, but I never did it again because there were other things to do that were way more fun. I held a stash of gurly drinks in my inventory for a long time with the intention of using them for that purpose, but when I realized so much time had passed without me using them because other endeavors were more important, I just got rid of them. Sure, they have zero draw for me now, but they never had that much draw before anyway (in lieu of other things). Plus, I don't see much point in gaining experience right now--it offers almost no benefits once you get past a certain level.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Shepherdmoon: I actually read somewhere that one of stoot's degrees is in philosophy. So there's major thinkin' for ya:)
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • RM: Ah, see makes sense :). I'm glad that degree did him enough good to make it show.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just caught up with your explanation, Stoot. Makes sense and even tho I mourn the loss of gurly drink awesomeness, thanks for wanting to keep the game surprising and fun.
    Posted 17 months ago by ElleD Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wonder how stoot thought up that name maybe as in astute, well he is sure is, and he has won me over to the good side.  Who's the other god his evil twin, now that would be both weird and fun.  Specially if the bad twin was as sharp as stoot.  Can I guess how many jelly beans in the jar ShepardMoon as to what game you mentioned were we only had moderator's (more like game police) and at the end some jerk named Tony.  Wasn't it weird how if one of them had a view on anything they all had the same view, never ever did they once agree with the players.  Hate that.
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • True to that xoxJulie, and only the name "Tony" will live on in infamy... Ah, isn't Glitch a breath of fresh air?
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I begrudgingly admit stoot makes a point. As long as we get the promised new and interesting ways of gaining xp!
    Posted 17 months ago by MaryLiLamb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • xoxoJulie - I think you're thinking too deeply about the name. Methinks it's a play on his real name. Actually, I can think of several accents in which his name really would sound like Stoot Barfield.

    As for the rest, sometimes I feel like people need reminding that this is just beta, and we are lab rats. We're here so that the devs can study how we use things and our behaviors with regard to various items, skills, tasks. I don't think we should interpret the Glitch world, as it is today, as literal representation of what's in store for the game. We're improving the future of the game even by exploiting things, like singing and no-noing up the level ladder. That would get pretty dull after a while, but they wouldn't have known for sure that things would be used that way till they were. This is what beta is about. It's about building better Glitching through experience.

    /soapbox
    Posted 17 months ago by Eureka Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm level 46, and I didn't use No-No, (yeah I know Ms Goody two-shoes).. but I did want the badge so I tried some the other week to get the now '11 minutes on No-No' required for the badge. It didn't really bother me whether people used it or not to level up/gain XP/currants, but now it seems to have been nerfed to the extreme where there's little point in using it. 
    Same with the gurly drink, think I used it a couple of times, seems a bit harsh to totally nerf it for the butterflies. 

    But this is beta and we are all learning, the devs and us testers to make it a better world.

    *Goes to nibble on cheese and wonder what the 'new and more interesting ways of gaining XP' will be :)
    Posted 17 months ago by Teena Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like the idea of stoot's name coming from astute, he isn't just astute he is stoot.  Aw phooey you just don't get it.

    And I know what beta is about SoapBox, I also know what happens when a game goes live.  It sounds like you have done this beta thing a lot, please do go on....
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • stoot is right about the xp and the need for activities to be intrinsically fun.

    rather excited by the great switchover too.

    .. but i don't know how i've missed ALL the Globally Optimal Strategies

    seriously - never got into no-no or gurly butterfly singing. not out of ignorance but just because they didn't seem optimal to me. singing might have generated a lot of XP, but what's the point of XP? no-no worked great in the mines but leaving and dying or having a strict timetable for return always struck me as restricting freedom to do what i wanted, when i wanted to.

    not that i'm complaining about the nerfing of singing or no-no, but i never understood why people would do that stuff to begin with.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And I know what beta is about SoapBox, I also know what happens when a game goes live.  It sounds like you have done this beta thing a lot, please do go on....

    xoxjulie - the second paragraph of my comment was not directed to you or any specific person. I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the tone of your reply. I'm sure all of us here have participated in alpha/beta stages for many projects; I was not implying you - or anyone else - hadn't. Perhaps I should have posted that in a different thread, the sentiment was related to this and a variety of threads I've read lately. I just happened to insert it into this one. I do apologize if it somehow made you feel belittled (as my possibly-flawed interpretation of your reply seems to suggest), it was not my intention.

    For the record, /soapbox was me getting off my soapbox (as I realized it was a preachy sort post), not my name. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Eureka Subscriber! | Permalink