Topic

Glitch: Too estrogen driven to attract male players?

So, I'm a 35 year old guy with a wife and kids who was invited to play this game several weeks ago by someone at Tiny Speck. I immediately found the game to be fun enough to play as a casual experience, but I honestly have been losing interest as quickly as I progress due to the feeling that it has little or no appeal for males to play.

Glitch has a lot of potential for many kinds of people, but I honestly feel it is focusing in on the 10 to 30-something female, thus limiting its appear to the other gender ENTIRELY. If I hung my masculinity on the wall and just played Glitch, I could easily spend hours of having endless fun with this game, but I am all too often reminded of how this game is NOT geared for men. Whats more, even my wife laughed when she saw me playing this during the EOTW party, asking if I was going homo on her.

So, while I could cite several examples of how this game personally makes me unattracted to it, I'll just offer the following obvious examples as seen while visiting the site:

1) Pastels, everywhere!
Is this really necessary right down to character customization? I mean come on, this is fine in San Francisco and NYC, but as stated before: No appeal for the manly figure.

Perhaps a customizable skin chooser for the game's frame, a set of "REI-like" clothing choices and less effeminate choices would help. The awards are atrociously gag-worthy... pink buttons for planting beans or cooking... lovely: beta.glitch.com/achievements/

2) Subscribers are designated as pink hearts.
Most men (who prefer women) would not be comfortable with this and I doubt that they would buy a membership strictly because of it.

Almost anything at this point would be preferable, seriously. You can go to the grocery store and watch many men pass up on purchasing products that offer immediate donations to breast cancer. It has nothing with support the cause and everything to do with the fact that it's a pink ribbon.

3) Characters, while cartoony, lack any wardrobe or vanity customizations that would be considered masculine in ANY way.
From feathers to MORE pastels to kilts and pumps, I see nothing here created by a straight male.

Simply have a man make some shirts with sports, trucks or booze on them... add basic sneekers and steal toe boots... might help just a *wee-bit*.
 
Bash me if you will, but I am not trying to say the game sucks as much as I am trying to offer constructive criticism as to why this game will lack male players, especially ones whom have insecurities about maintaining their masculinity (which is a majority of men). If you note, I am also trying to offer suggestions to make it more appealing to the potential male players out there.

Posted 17 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • So in the typical game, XYand Z should be included. I don't think you understand. Glitch is not your typical game. If Tiny Speck only wanted to take the supposedly required elements from other games and mash them together, it would be on the market already. They are creating something new.
    Posted 17 months ago by MaryLiLamb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My avatar's normally in jeans, a t-shirt, and sneakers (though if I had credits left, I'd probably wear armor), and lives in a cave, and is a farmer, miner, and alchemist, among other things (and I'm female).  Glitch is much more about being human than it is about being any particular gender.  I can't imagine abandoning the game because of an aversion to the color palette.
    Posted 17 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @malo: I like you. You're a good person and you should feel good. :3
    Posted 17 months ago by Luk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would be happy if the Glitch team went on a trip to their nearest Cabela's, and maybe a trip to their nearest racetrack, to give players a bit more diversity.

    Hipster-wear doesn't appeal to everyone.
    Posted 17 months ago by Sean of the Moor Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 malo! I love hearing people's reasons for staying with Glitch. It's very heartwarming to read.



    Just curious, where does it say who their target audience is?

    The Glitch populace is the most varied I have seen in any game. It has males and females alike, from teenagers to adults to adult adults. I don't think it is having trouble attracting it's "target audience," as if you know exactly what it is.

    I think the point I want to make is, if you don't like it you can go elsewhere.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lung Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "There’s not a better way to say [who we're targeting] than people with above average intelligence and sophisticated tastes, in their 20s or early 30s…The intersection of NPR listeners and game players.."
    --stoot barfield in interview

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10449721-52.html

    Of course, that was over a year ago, maybe things have changed.  But I can't help but notice the word "people" being deployed vs. the word "men".
    Posted 17 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Everytime a new day starts, I want my character to receive a morning wood buff to remind me that I'm a male.
    Posted 17 months ago by Muncey Mango Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As a biological male feminist without a gender identity, who also does not believe in the establishment or reinforcement of gender roles, I have to say that much of this discussion is not only ridiculous but ludicrous, to boot. I say if some men are too macho to play the game, then that's their loss.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Malo +1  I found your line "how I choose to......present myself to my children" especially refreshing.
    Posted 17 months ago by GreyGoose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am definitely the intersection of NPR listener and game player, but I left my early 30's a long time ago! Fortunately I'm not disqualified.
    Posted 17 months ago by Widdershins Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I could have written the direct opposite of this post for almost every other game I've (happily) played in my long computer gaming lifetime (which started around 1982). I've paid good money for the extremely non-pastel, and often outright misogynistic games, enjoyed playing them anyway (even Leisure Suit Larry and, Alph help me, Duke Nukem where I had to shoot strippers). I'm not a guy, but my biased view after years of wishing for a comfortable and intelligent game to enjoy with others is that I really don't see that Glitch needs change to be inclusive of males. What should a game that is supportive to the majority of the population look like to people used to years of male-dominated game design? Maybe this is it!
    Posted 17 months ago by girlhacker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yep. I admit it. I listen to NPR too. Have that stereotypical high-IQ and all to go with it too. Oops! :) (As I've said elsewhere in this forum, I have yet to meet a real idiot in this game!)
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Fokian: *looks at buddy list*

    hi I'm bored!

    *add*
    Posted 17 months ago by bored no more Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ bored: *notices add request*
    pleased to meet you, bored!
    *add*
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hey, OP... I'm just curious. Why did your wife think the EotW party was gay? It looked like a county fair midway to me, not the Leatherman finals.

    No high heels, no monster trucks... Glitch feels (mostly) gender-neutral to me, and I like it like that.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Huh. Good question, @Lilith. Everybody missed that obvious question 'til now.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • hehe.. The solution to this discussion
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4
    Posted 17 months ago by Aero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh! Giants! Whhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy, @Aero? Whhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!!!!!!!
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The solution to that solution
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM-9Q0ac6Zs&NR=1
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Fine.. for Fokian Fool.. The solution to all the above solutions... and that is how the world was created!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8_zRwWVB4c&feature=related
    :P hug for you bro.. lol
    Posted 17 months ago by Aero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What happened to the annihilating explosion at the end? No BOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!! :(
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Frankly, I found most of the responses here to be appalling.

    The guy was posting constructive criticism.  He likes the game.  He tried to get his friends to play it and it turned them off.  He viewed this as a potential problem.

    Eventually the issue was resolved with the explanation that it is indeed a feature, not a bug.  Tiny Speck is specifically and purposely attempting to exclude certain types of players, in favor of us froo-froo hipster artsy fartsy types.  Nothing wrong with that.

    But if you want to embrace your elitist NPR-listening selves, don't participate in unnecessary personal attacks and close-minded piling on, respond to actual message content.  His intention was to make the game better.

    The devs are soliciting opinions and he provided his.  If anyone looks insecure here, it's an insular community lashing out at a (relative) non-conformist.
    Posted 17 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lilith

    My wife thought it was "gay" based on first perception, which prompted me to delve deeper into the idea that it may have too much emphasis on the effeminate, not enough on the neutral or lacking for other stereotypes not included.

    @Nanookie

    Quote: "Of course, that was over a year ago, maybe things have changed.  But I can't help but notice the word "people" being deployed vs. the word "men""

    If that is truly the objective, which I might add is quite admirable (if not risky in the same right), then more should be done to consistently keep things asexual. As it stands however, there is more emphasis on defined sexuality than can be acceptable by definition of asexual and "neutral". This is why Dev studios dislike trying to take an asexual approach to game classes, it is too difficult for society to accept it as a whole without finding some way to feel left out. Put in some shoes that are perceived as gender specific and bare the disapproval from those feeling left out. See what I am saying now?

    @Biff Beefbat

    Thank you, simply, thank you.
    Posted 17 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • All joking aside, aren't you concerned that your wife (i.e., your spouse, your partner, your soul mate, the person who is supposed to love you and build you up) used bigotry to intimidate you?
    Posted 17 months ago by Hands Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Appalling that I gave him a +1 when he clarified his position more? I poked fun at myself concerning NPR (I rarely listen to the TV or the radio). I certainly don't consider myself the "froo-froo hipster artsy fartsy" type (been around a few biker bars and have a tattoo from a couple of trips to jail- and it wasn't over peace protests either!) I know he had a good point. Several here supported him. He has substantial, professional experience in the gaming industry and his insights into successful products of that type are worth tons here.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Frankly, I think both of you are being ridiculous and the ones being elitist. I don't give a damn if your wife said it was gay. I'm gay and I don't feel sexually attracted to this game and I doubt it's sexually attracted to me. It's not elitist to say that we refuse to conform to gender stereotypes and bend to the idea that pastels and the color pink are somehow effeminate or homosexual. This isn't a personal attack -- it's an attack on oppression and narrow-mindedness. Also, everything he said about this game that supposedly makes it "estrogen-driven" are some of the things I love the most. That's one of the most fucking offensive things I've ever heard. Am *I* too estrogen-driven because I love pastels and pink?! AM I TOO ESTROGEN-DRIVEN BECAUSE I'M GAY?! Becuase if you think so then, yeah, it's getting personal and I think you should shut the hell up and keep your NOT constructive criticism to yourself.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Hands

    Nope, my wife made an immediate observation without knowing anything about the game other than I was playing a beta game. That was a true "first impression" in my opinion and had no bearing on my relationship with my spouse. I've been with my wife for 16 years, I think I know her well enough to know the difference.

    @Cerulean

    Chill. I understand you are constantly under the scrutiny of society and I want you to realize this has nothing to do with an attack on what a person chooses as their sexual alignment and everything to do with who/what is left out here. The game should have either A) More neutrality or B) More inclusion. Otherwise it becomes a manner of several people, particularly males wanting to have more male identity, feeling left out.
    Posted 17 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @OP

    I realize that we come from really different backgrounds, and all that. But...I'm going to be honest here and say that at least for me, the things that Tiny Speck is doing is not only in alignment with my worldview and that of those I care for dearly. That they are taking the risk to broaden things beyond the box is something I find worthy. 

    I honestly don't think your values are under attack here, and despite my sort of flip answer upthread, seriously, I don't think you should be discouraged in play. And I find it sad that your friends can't step outside of their box to enjoy an experience that you, yourself are enjoying.

    However...the perception that gender and sexuality and the presentation thereof are one and the same has really hurt some of the people who I love best in the whole wide world. And I imagine that's true of some of the other people in this thread. Insisting that there is enough truth in the stereotype that there is one way to be "male", "female", "straight" or "gay" is not something I agree with. So hey, if I'm overreacting, there you go.

    Sorry that this has taken up your evening. Not exactly what you were expecting, I bet.
    Posted 17 months ago by Caesura Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Did you see all of the Pride rainbow shirts and outfits in the wardrobe? I bet those are too gay.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Gee, I wonder if I'm too estrogen-driven or effeminate because I like Madonna. Or because I have pink shoelaces. Or because I wear shimmer lip gloss.

    ALSO, @Nanookie, I just want to say that I knew I saw this coming and that this very thread is one of the million reasons I was hoping Stoot would say he would shut down hateful and bigoted threads/posts. Which he ultimately agreed to when discussed in the context of pejoratives thrown towards oppressed, disenfranchised and marginalized groups of people. BUT OOPS MAYBE THAT'S TOO NPR-ELITIST OMG.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it would be helpful to remember that a spirited discussion does not mean there's an intent to attack the people behind the ideas. I'm pleased that c0mad0r brought up this issue, as the gender imbalance was sort of the elephant in the room. If my responses were in any way taken as attacks, then I apologize, but honestly I enjoyed the conversation and have no ill will toward any of the participants.

    Edit: By "gender imbalance", I'm referring to player demographics, not game content.
    Posted 17 months ago by Widdershins Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Over all this...
    Posted 17 months ago by NutMeg Botwin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "froo-froo hipster artsy fartsy types.

    .. elitist NPR-listening selves"

    ok.

    it's this sort of thing that puts the OP into perspective.

    if you wanted more "manly" clothing, you could have just asked for that in the clothing topic in the same way that other people have requested "girly" stuff.

    if the subscriber heart bugged you, you could have just said "the subscriber heart doesn't really suit my personality, could there be another option?"

    but no. the requests were made in a condescending tone, making huge unsubstantiated assumptions, taking up an adversarial attitude toward "homos" .. and just generally not being funny.

    that's not constructive criticism. it is an excuse to say "homo" in public under the guise of fighting some imagined reverse discrimination. add "froo froo", "artsy fartsy" and "elitist" to the list.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ widdershins

    Thank you widdershins. If you or anyone has noticed, none of my comments or responses have been inflammatory to anyone thing or group. Just because people want to assume something, doesn't mean it is true. As you said too, there is a gender imbalance here. I just opted to address it directly with references to a sociological abstract of the stereotypical male instead of trying to utilize personal feeling/emotion.

    @EVERYONE

    I think I've made it rather clear in my several responses, which I suggest you read before taking anything personally:

    1) I have enjoy the game thus far and enjoy the company I am surrounded by
    2) I have a cupcake hat and do such to incite my own silly feelings while "glitched"
    3) Due to a realization come upon after my spouse gave her initial "first impressions" of Glitch, I felt compelled to address the fact that the neutrality of the game is not being met and is, as widdershins stated it: "an elephant in the room.
    4) I have and will remain civil to any and all responses as I knew such a topic would invoke the thoughts and feelings of several people, but I also felt it needed to be said.
    Posted 17 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Interesting discussion taking place here.  A couple of thoughts I'd like to share.

    First, c0mad0r, I am confused about how your original post says "this game personally makes me unattracted to it", only to later say that your post "does not in any way reflect my own sentiments".  

    If this was simply a request for more male items, then it would be fine and awesome.  However, I'm not sure that more male items would make the game appealing to the stereotype that you're suggesting; after all, that seems to be the basis of your argument, not that the game needs more male items, but that it needs more male items to appeal to this insecure, 'macho male' persona.  

    I'm pretty sure I see where you're coming from -- I showed Glitch to a friend today and they said that if they were going to play an MMO they would rather kill things.  It seems to me that Glitch simply wasn't designed to be targeted to either Randy Savage or the average stereotypical male gamer.  If we're going to be generalizing, then I'll suggest that Glitch is more intelligent, refreshing and creative than that kind of person could appreciate.  All the sports, trucks and booze items in the 'verse won't change that.
    Posted 17 months ago by Sir Soleil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Cerulean - The OP was concerned about the very stereotypes being projected onto the game that have you upset. He enjoys the game. Ever look at his character? :) I'm NOT gay, but just because of such stereotypes I'm always fighting that label being applied to me. I once found myself be the target of pursuit by a gay male. He bought so much into certain stereotypes that minor characteristics (walk, vocal pitch, etc. all brought on by pre-adolescent growth problems)  simply screamed "gay" to him. He had several people go to great lengths to point out what was wrong with his assumptions. He actually told them in all seriousness that I was "playing hard to get"! There are idiots in both the straight and gay community as we both know. There are gay people who think because they are gay that they have to "act gay", and there are gay and straight people who think that those who act outside gender stereotypes must be "gay". And I have been actually sexually assaulted by three men as a result of this. One very clearly a self-admitted gay man, and two others who were supposedly straight. The first of those two did it after torturing me beyond the point of submission. 16 years later I'm still dealing with the legal and emotional consequences of that one (I have physical scars). The OP clearly brought up a legitimate issue. He first presented it in a manner that didn't jive quite right, but once he further clarified what he was saying he was spot on.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There's an issue because the game supposedly doesn't pander to the stereotypical heterosexual male? So what if it doesn't? Stereotypes aren't accurate representations of anyone. The game might not be everybody's type, but it's not inherently off-putting to any particular demographic.
    Posted 17 months ago by Xacau Feera Blin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "3) Characters, while cartoony, lack any wardrobe or vanity customizations that would be considered masculine in ANY way. 
    From feathers to MORE pastels to kilts and pumps, I see nothing here created by a straight male."


    come on. we all know that there are jeans and t-shirts and shirts with ties and work boots and hairy chests and y-front briefs and tuxedo tops and sport team jerseys and sport team masks and so on and so on.

    these are all "masculine in some way", even from the most stereotypical perspective.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with striatic. c0mad0r, how do you not see that using "going homo" in a derogatory sense could be offensive to homosexuals? How do you not see that stating a personal preference is different from claiming most people from a group prefer something when you have no evidence?

    Also, I think everyone using the terms/phrases "typical," "stereotypical," "most men," "most women," "a majority of," "I think we would all agree," "people in my community/city/state/country think this way" and the like are using these terms completely unsubstantiated. All you're doing is repeating what someone else told you or stating your own opinion. Without citing your sources or showing your data, you have nothing to back up such statements. This, by the way, is how lies and discrimination are spread.

    Point of clarification: "Hollywood" and "The Media" are not sources. A talking head on TV or radio is not a source. A blockbuster film is not a source. Link to your credible research or stop using those terms and just own your opinion.
    Posted 17 months ago by Hands Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I always add the "IMHO" where needed :p
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic +1000000000

    The requests themselves are reasonable, but the presentation is incredibly offensive.  It's not funny to perpetuate bigoted attitudes.
    Posted 17 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I guess I'm too gay for liking dick. OH WELL. AIN'T GONNA CHANGE.

    ETA: Just waiting for someone to tell me to calm my tits.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh! Oh! Can I, @Cerulean? Can I? Funny thing about chicks and dudes is we both got them (mammals, remember?).

    Yes, I'm being intentionally silly. :D

    And I hope you never change there, @Cerulean.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Use of "IMO" and "IMHO" is annoying.  It is unnecessary and implied at all times.  All posts are clearly the opinion of the author, unless they're a troll, and this guy is clearly not a troll.  IMHO.

    Anyway, for a game where "hen squeezer" is an occupation and not a peculiar insult, there certainly is a dreadful lack of humor among some (but obviously not all) of the posters here.

    Based on the sheer density of poetry and tumblr activity, you'd think people wouldn't have any trouble self-identifying as artsy folks (or at least accepting the nature of the comment), and the NPR line came from stoot himself.

    Also the hypocrisy of "this game is for free spirits of all kinds, but not NASCAR men!" is silly. You'll note that he initially asked for the options to butch things up a bit in a configurable manner, that didn't affect other players (unless they encountered his).  He didn't say, "This game needs more gunplay and hooker action!".

    He acknowledged the existing aesthetic, but pointed out that it was lacking certain elements that appeal to a large percentage of the gaming public.  It was explained that this is by design and Tiny Speck is intentionally alienating a certain customer base to create a particular environment.  Fair enough.

    Most of the rest of the unnecessary commentary had far more to do with the personal hot buttons of various posters than the guy's original and thoughtful commentary.  OK, so he could have been a little more PC, but his words were not hurtful unless you're looking for something to be outraged over.  The game itself is laced with enough innuendo that any player could reasonably expect that this crowd could handle a little political incorrectness and concentrate on the content of the feedback.
    Posted 17 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's not hypocrisy. Macho men are welcome here. But bigots who do everything to demean me for being gay short of calling me a flaming fairy faggot deserve to be put in their place and, from what I know about how wonderful the Glitch community has been to me, are most certainly not welcome here. Political incorrectness? You're seriously arguing that political incorrectness be allowed? How would you define that? Sure, go ahead and offend the gays. Offend the blacks. And those Jews, well, offend them, too. If they're offended or don't like it they're too estrogen-laden and nothing more than sissies and pussies, and they're just LOOKING to be offended. That's one of the most asinine arguments I've ever heard.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Anyway, for a game where "hen squeezer" is an occupation and not a peculiar insult, there certainly is a dreadful lack of humor among some (but obviously not all) of the posters here."

    yeah .. coz throwing around terms like "going homo" is a real laugh riot.

    and talking about San Francisco and NYC as if they are the only places gay people live. HILARIOUS.

    people really need to lighten up and realize that throwing around offensive stereotypes is just for laffs, you know? no harm intended, so it couldn't possibly be harmful.

    "this game is for free spirits of all kinds, but not NASCAR men!"

    uh .. i just searched the topic and no one said the game isn't for NASCAR men. in fact many people have said that the game could have more "masculine stuff" and that this is fine.

    don't you DARE conflate the concept that all these cheap references to "homo" are unfunny and offensive with some imagined idea that people who like NASCAR aren't welcome to play.

    unless every single NASCAR fan equates anything not stereotypically masculine with being gay.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • oh .. and "Biff Beef bat" .. have you ever had someone throw rocks at you while calling you a homo because of the way you dress?

    just curious, buddy.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Cerulean - remember how they got the Hulk to calm down in the movies? The cute, hot chick? Ok. Now. Think about your boyfriend (as good looking a dude as you are you have got to have one). Yeah. Him. Him in that happy place. With you. Is it working? (didn't that backfire in the movie?... Houston, we have a problem)
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Slowly I turned...step by step..."
    Posted 17 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Regardless of whether this game lacks masculine appeal or not, I'm unsure it is such a big deal if this game appeals to a largely female audience. It's not like there's a surfeit of "overly feminine" computer games out there.

    Aside from that, I like this game a lot precisely because it's such a refreshing change... It's not vulgar or obscene, but there's a definite adult sensibility to it. It's not violent, but it's not a stereotypical farming, dress-up or puzzle-based game. It's cooperative, but not in the too-common sense of cooperative Facebook games.

    In some sense, it's almost inevitable that this game would draw in more females than males... look at the slate of games up at E3 and it's fairly obvious that the guys got theirs and the female audience is underserved. This implies that if a new game is big and appeals to men equally as much as $FPS BRAND$ $NUMBER$, the number of women would still outnumber men...
    Posted 17 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
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