Topic

[Updated] Nerf Warning: Yellow Crumb, Purple and Silvertongue

Note: the original "Solutions" section of this post has been updated with more information. The changes described in this post have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

Executive Summary
In a few days we are going to make a change to the shucking behaviour of certain herbs and/or alter some herb and seed prices. What follows is a long explanation of why and a short description of some of the alternatives we are considering.[1] Feedback is welcome.

The Problem
Right now you can take a single yellow crumb flower and, given the right upgrades, shuck it to produce, on average, 2.66 yellow crumb flower seeds.

The flower and the seeds both have a base cost of 66 currants — but since one flower nets you 2.66 seeds, the act of shucking turns your initial 66 currants into 176 currants instantly. As The Rube would say: “Great deal, great deal”.

(The same is true of Purple Flower and Silvertongue, just with different base costs.)

It is fun to make lots and lots of money quickly (or lots and lots of favor, or lots and lots of iMG, or, in general, to watch your numbers go up quickly), but it is not a good thing for the game in the long term: inflation makes the game much harder for new players and renders whole other parts of the system useless because the “return” on other activities is so poor in comparison (which, in turn, reduces the choices available to return-minded players of all levels — it is harder to justify the actions/strategies that they more genuinely enjoy if something else is so over-powered.)

Background
There are two general classes of herbs: the first class (Gandlevery, Rubeweed, Rookswort, Hairball Flower) grow one herb per garden plot. Shucking any of these for seeds will always produce two seeds for each herb shucked. (For simplicity, I’m ignoring the effect of any upgrades, higher level skills, etc., and just talking about the base behaviour.)

The second class of herbs (Yellow Crumb Flower, Purple Flower, Silvertongue) grow three-per-plot and shucking these herbs for seeds is a more delicate operation: each time you shuck you have a chance of getting 2 seeds, a chance of getting one seed and a chance of getting nothing … the seeds are smaller and more delicate and harder to extract.

The odds for getting seeds from shucking the herbs in the second group were supposed to work with two random “dice rolls”, each with a 33% chance of producing a seed (and a 66% chance of producing nothing). Those two rolls together meant you had a 66% chance of getting a seed each time you shucked (really 66.6666…% — if you shucked a million seeds, you’d get 666,667 seeds, or very close).

However, when we set everything up to introduce herbs in the first place, the shucking odds were reversed and each dice roll had a 66% chance of producing a seed, instead of a 33% chance. This went unnoticed for a really long time (more than a year!) until we decided to look into what made Yellow Crumb farming so profitable and popular.

(You can see plainly how Class One herbs and Class Two herbs are totally out of balance when it comes to prices, shucking, and seeds by comparing the results of shucking: again assuming no higher level skills or upgrades, a sprig of Gandlevery, worth 40 currants, will produce 2 Gandlevery Seeds worth 13 currants each / 26 total: a 35% loss; one Rubeweed worth 55 currants will produce 2 Rubeweed Seeds worth 20 currants each / 40 total: a 27% loss, etc. Each of the Class Two herbs, on the other hand, will produce a 33% gain when shucked. With all the upgrades it is profitable to shuck all herbs from both classes: it is just much, much, much more profitable to shuck Class Two herbs.)

[Updated] Solutions
Note: the changes described here have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

We are going to be reducing the base cost of the seeds by half. (Contrary to what some players have said in the comments, this effects both the number of currants the vendors will give you for them AND the amount of favor produced when they are donated.)

This change will be made on Monday the 17th.

In addition, we will also be making changes to the base cost of tinctures (all of them will be increased) and to both the cost and ingredients required for nearly all potions (in all cases the prices will go up and the number of ingredients required will go down). This will make tincture and potion-making profitable and provide another avenue for herb usage aside from shucking and selling/donating seeds. The specifics on those changes will be announced when the change is live.

The original "Solutions" section follows, in italics:
There are two solutions we’re considering and they are both pretty straightforward: the first is fixing the bug and thereby reducing the number of seeds produced by shucking; the second is reducing the base cost of the seeds (which will make them worth less at vendors or when donated to shrines).

Even with this change, it will still be profitable to simply shuck herbs (once you have all the right skills/upgrades) so we will also be rebalancing the base costs for tinctures and potions to make it worth at least as much to create a tincture (or use the herbs for other purposes) as it would be shuck the equivalent number of herbs. That could mean some improvement/boost in the herbs’ “functionality” as well.


___
[1] In the past we've only announced changes at the time we made the change because we figured that was the fairest thing for everyone (people who missed the announcement were not at a disadvantage and everyone felt the effects at the same time). But when we made the change to upgrade tickets earlier this week there were many requests for advanced notice and so we’re trying that, as an experiment.

Posted 90 days ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • "This game does seem to be going the way of every other MMO.
    Play our way or leave,"

    -- and what exactly is the alternative?  "Do whatever I want no matter what" - ?

    Having a credit card doesn't make you king of the world.  Grow up.
    Posted 24 min ago by WalruZ | Permalink

    ***

    I'm sorry... what on earth does having a credit card have to do with anything?
    I was commenting on the fact that TS have touted Glitch as a sandbox game where people can play how they want. I don't see how a credit card plays into this. Why the hostility towards me?
    Posted 90 days ago by xombiekitty Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Solitary glitchen benefit from sharding when they rush past someone else who happens to get a quoin before them :)
    Posted 90 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • shhexy, is there an upgrade or something I'm missing then?
    I've been on streets with others and I haven't seen any quoins I've collected shard, nor have I received shards from others.
    Posted 90 days ago by xombiekitty Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am a relatively new player and as a result the start of the learning curve is a recent memory. I prefer option 2 because I think option 1 will cause a great deal of frustration for the lowest level players who are just getting their green thumb on. I think balancing the game is a worthy cause. It'd be great to do so in a way that doesn't chase away the newest gardeners.
    Posted 90 days ago by Adar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I guess I don't understand how the term "sandbox" can be construed to mean "the way I choose to play should be more profitable than the way anyone else plays so that I can have the rare things I want as easily and congenially as possible."

    I noted the yc profit path relatively recently and worked it hard, knowing it was too good to last. I don't feel in any way condemned by TS for doing so. It was a mechanic that I took advantage of, as did many others.

    Now that mechanic is being adjusted, which seems entirely appropriate. In true sandbox fashion, we'll once again have to get creative about our goals and activities in response.
    Posted 90 days ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love playing with(in) Glitch.. but have never thought that it owe's me anything on the basis that I joined as an Alpha..  This seems like a very skewed pov to me.  Like rl, it Becomes and must Evolve..  If the expectation is that Glitch should remain static so that we (older) players would like it better, then as a business - which it is.. well then TS might as well just throw in the towel now.  Everything changes.. I'm willing to grow with the game.  Perhaps there will be a time when I stop playing, but if so, I'm certain that there will be a new player willing to take my place.. and I'm ok with that.
    Posted 90 days ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's not how I meant it at all. I'm at a loss as to where I said such a thing.

    When I started playing I went the animals and mining route instead of cooking or growing.
    I remember people complaining about mining being too rewarding.
    Lately I've seen people talk about how much you can make from pigs.
    It seems that people complain regardless.

    I don't care that YC is being changed.
    I think the number of changes is odd.
    I know that the benefits of YC have been know for a long time so trying to pass this off as a new thing to correct seems weird to me.
    I do think that these changes (all of them) should be handled in a way that doesn't seem to point fingers at players and say "you're doing it wrong".
    Posted 90 days ago by xombiekitty Subscriber! | Permalink
  • xombie - you have to be within a certain distance, no upgrade needed. If you were both about to get the same quoin, but the other just beat you to it, then you'd probably get a shard
    Posted 90 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ah, okay, thanks shhexy :)
    Must just be a closer range than where I've been then.
    Thanks again :)
    Posted 90 days ago by xombiekitty Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So here's my take on it...
    I can't ignore the upgrades and increased skills (because I think they really play a factor) but setting aside chance of a Super Harvest... and considering the time it takes to grow herbs, here's how the return currently looks:
    Herb : Time : Harvest Size : Value : Shuck = Return (Harvest Size*Shuck*Value / Time)
    Hairball : 270m : 1 : 22 : 4 = .325
    Rubeweed : 240m : 1 : 20 : 4 = .333
    *Rookswort : 300m : 1 : 25 : 4 = .333
    Gandlevery : 90m : 1 : 13 : 4 = .577
    Silvertongue : 420m : 3 : 50 : 2.6 = .928
    Yellow : 540m : 3 : 66: 2.6 = .953
    Purple : 60m : 3 : 12: 2.6 = 1.56

    In reality, Yellow is NOT the most profitable return when time is factored in. In fact, adjusting the Purple/Silver/Yellow group will have little overall effect for the profit margins of herb farmers as no changes are being planned to Rookswort. Yup, all that Purple planting people griped about... kinda silly.

    So... let's look at that again with the shucking adjusted to 2 and .65 (the mentioned 1.3 / 2) to give some base numbers:
    Hairball : 270m : 1 : 22 : 2 = .162
    Rubeweed : 240m : 1 : 20 : .65 = .166
    *Rookswort : 300m : 1 : 25 : 2 = .166
    Silvertongue : 420m : 3 : 50 : .65 = .232
    Yellow : 540m : 3 : 66: .65 = .238
    Gandlevery : 90m : 1 : 13 : 2 = .288
    Purple : 60m : 3 : 12: .65 = .39

    Again... Purple is the best return based around time, and Rookswort is still very profitable. So this would be the 'intended base' and I'm not certain would actually balance things.

    Here's a thought - look at the base harvest. If the Purple/Silver/Yellow group had a harvest of 1, here's how it stacks out with both current shucking mechanics and the 'intended base':
    Current (4 / 2.6 shuck rate) -
    Silvertongue : 420m : 1 : 50 : 2.6 = .309
    Yellow : 540m : 1 : 66: 2.6 = .317
    Hairball : 270m : 1 : 22 : 4 = .325
    Rubeweed : 240m : 1 : 20 : 4 = .333
    Rookswort : 300m : 1 : 25 : 4 = .333
    Purple : 60m : 1 : 12 : 2.6 = .52
    Gandlevery : 90m : 1 : 13 : 4 = .577

    Adjusting to a uniform base harvest of 1 changes things quite a bit AND reduces the overall profit variance (.309 to .577 versus .325 to 1.56). Balances things out, no?

    One more time! This time with the 2 / .65 shucking mechanic...
    Silvertongue : 420m : 1 : 50 : .65 = .077
    Yellow : 540m : 1 : 66: .65 = .079
    Purple : 60m : 1 : 12 : .65 = .13
    Hairball : 270m : 1 : 22 : 2 = .162
    Rubeweed : 240m : 1 : 20 : 2 = .166
    Rookswort : 300m : 1 : 25 : 2 = .166
    Gandlevery : 90m : 1 : 13 : 2 = .288

    Not a pretty picture.

    Now..... who wants me to compare this to garden crops with equivalent growing times? Seriously, I think the 'nerf' on this is easier than re-working the costs or shucking - just change the base harvest.

    *fixed some errors and the time on Silver, good catches!
    Posted 90 days ago by Wandering Confusion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't care one way or another about the change itself.  I love the "advance notice" part of it, however.  Thank you for that.
    Posted 90 days ago by Meromorphic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wandering Confusion... Too much math... Brain hurts...

    Nice work though.

    Heh, anyway, just thinking that depending on the type of nerf that takes place, perhaps a master gardener shucking potion would be in order?
    Posted 90 days ago by FineousFingers Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot, a while ago in a galaxy far far away we were given some votes. And promised some day we'll be able to use them in a system yet to be developed, spending them towards things we feel are important for our way of gameplay.

    This was about a year ago, and the votes piled up since then, never to be used for anything...

    From what I remember, as others above have pointed out, never has the game balance been under such scrutiny as in the past weeks. Which is good, both from balancing sake as you point out, and as I feel this might be a sign we're closing in to open beta.

    I realize we're all but a handful players compared to what the open beta will bring, and hopefully what the live version will have. However, many of us have been playing this for quite some time, and in this time have known intimately many aspects of the game. And our numbers, while small when compared to the live player base, are still of some significance I believe.

    Why not let us have the voting system promised over a year ago? This way, based on our experience playing the game, which I believe is diverse and comprehensive enough that will mirror that of the many players to come, we as a group can steer a bit the direction these balancing issues and updates will head to.

    From experience, only a small proportion of players get involved in forums, in any game. But given the choice, a pop-up in game will have visibility and many more will give their 2c and votes.

    With this being said, on the issue at hand... Everyone that has been doing yc on a large scale to make currants have known this deep inside... it's so out of the cost curve that it needs to be adjusted somehow. Making 1 million currants in a few hours doesn't even come close to anything else you can be doing in-game to make the said currants, as far as I know.

    I'm all in for the change for balancing sake. And if you can make it so that either seeds become "spoiled seeds" or there's an "old" potion or two to keep us collectors entertained for a moment, all the happier!

    TL;DR: Give us the voting system, please. Adjust the price of seeds, and rework the potions to make them cheaper, in line with the adjusted seed prices.
    Posted 90 days ago by Heatseeker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Likes Zogje's idea and the vote system that Heatseeker has suggested too.
    Posted 90 days ago by Swoooo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Actually we did get a vote a while back. That's how we ended up with Foxes and Sloths.
    Posted 90 days ago by sporks Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the vendor buy-back adjustments have been in the works for a while, but are probably tied into a larger overhaul of the vendors (aka the references to vendors only selling what they've been sold in the way-way-off future).

    I disagree entirely with players being able to vote on mechanical changes to the game. The one and only vote thus far has been over the TYPE of animal... not what the animals would provide, their value, or the mechanics and costs behind it. We voted for the presentation of mechanical design, not the design... which is exactly how relevant player voting should be.
    Posted 90 days ago by Wandering Confusion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Since when does Silvertongue only take 90 minutes!? Am I missing something?
    Posted 90 days ago by ennuienta Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Why is this the way "voting should be"?  Yes, it was fun to have the new animal resident vote, but I totally agree with Heatseeker.  Regardless of my feelings about how TS decides to change things up.. the Votes were/(are?) supposed to mean something to the subscribers that earned them.  It has been disappointing to me that the only vote we have had a chance to cast to date has been for something rather trivial (from my perspective - although I'm sure that it was not trivial from a programming perspective).  If I could vote for anything at the moment, it would be for the return of balconies and rooftop garden plots. :-)  Oh.. and underground spaces for those who loved them.  On these things, I am certain I do not stand alone.
    Posted 90 days ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • gah! ennuieta I mis-copied info... the results are correct, my typing is not. Fixing now.

    Princess Fi - I totally agree with you about the balconies, useful doors, underground spaces and think prioritization of those items are what we should be voting on. They are 'trivial' as you put it, and do not mechanically change the way the game functions. Also - subscribers didn't earn votes, they bought them. No work was put into receiving or generating votes. A friend who purchased a subscription but has not logged in since The Great Reset has a massive number of votes. He would have no real perspective of the current game design but a substantial input into a vote.

    Voting on 'what to do about yellow' is a mechanical change and really not something I feel should be the remit of the players. As stated, we as players have a very narrow view of the economy and game balance and even less view for the overarching plan across years. People will instinctively vote for what is most profitable for them, rather than what is best for the game/world.  Allowing players to direct the particulars of game mechanics places TS in the uncomfortable position of either having to go against the popular vote, or being stuck in bad mechanics, or having to make additional tweaks down the road to re-balance. It's a bad idea that can only get worse.
    Posted 90 days ago by Wandering Confusion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here here, well spoken Bruce! Err, I mean Wandering Confusion.
    Posted 90 days ago by sporks Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Recall the tough but stinky parsnip. Remember how crazy (CRAZY) parsnip consumption patterns got before we had seeds available at vendors?

    Wouldn't a third option be to hand the Class 2 seeds over to the gardening vendor, fix the shucking bug and let the market correct naturally?
    Posted 90 days ago by Mistress*of*Fishies Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wandering Confusion - What I said about voting isn't only tied to the thread at hand. As Princess Fi mentioned, perhaps both of us are wrong in our interpretation but in my understanding the voting system was promised to be more than picking this visual model of an animal versus that model. I'm sure many will disagree, but for me I couldn't care less if the fox has slightly brown hair or a more reddish hue, and wouldn't vote either way.

    Further more, I didn't say we as players should vote whether or not to adjust the yellow crumb shucking bug. More or less we all agree it's a needed change, and should happen for the better of the game in the long run.

    What I meant was - and this is in line with this very thread started by Stoot - given a few choices by the TS staff, which of them we as a majority will prefer. The necessity of the change is determined by Tiny Speck, the options are determined by Tiny Speck, we as players pick one of them.

    This is a meaningful vote in my opinion, and something which would suit the voting system more than a thread in the forum. Hope this clears any confusion :)
    Posted 90 days ago by Heatseeker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • TL:DR but I don't understand how you can call the yellow crumb broken when I shuck 50 and get from 114 - 132 seeds  the majority of the time but when I shuck 50 rubeweed I nearly ALWAYS get 200.  Given the growing time of Yellow Crumb it should pay out more so why don't I get 200 seeds for my 50 shuck? 

    I for one have given up collecting guano and wait for the full grow time to pass before harvesting so the extra currants seem justifed.
    Posted 90 days ago by ~Arabesque~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • instead of decreasing the yellow, silver and purple values, why don't you guys increase the values of the other activities? make other flowers be worth more so that more people are attracted to that. or, if you're decreasing the value, decrease the growth times as well. what Arabesque said above - maybe the value is higher, but with the waiting times - that value doesn't really mean that much.

    it's like imagine you have a restaurant, and you have a few of so-so dishes that people reluctantly buy, and one good, that everyone wants. and then you say, "hey, lets make people buy all of them. how do we do that? let's make the good one so-so as well, so that all of them are pretty much the same, so for the customers the choice will be easier" or something like that. maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but you know what I mean... 

    I grow yellow and silver not because they cost so much (never sold any), but because I only play pretty much twice a day for an hour or so each time. so that's the only way I can put my gardens to use most of the time. would be sad to see them change so drastically.
    Posted 90 days ago by Posh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Arabesque, consider a real life garden:

    Class 1 are your Weedy Flowers: Marigolds, Cosmos, Black-Eyed Susan, Mint.
    They grow easily, they grow quick and they are pretty common/useful to gardeners. You expect a solid return on them. You plant more to get more bang for the buck.

    Class 2 are your Delicate Tropical Flowers: Orchids, African Violet, Night Blooming Cereus
    You spend a fortune on them, they take forever to grow, you fuss over them like crazy. You may or may not get a bloom. And you may or may not get so fed up with them that you pitch them out and go back to your easy peasy Weedy Flowers. You plant a few, you see the pretty and lucrative results, but >POOF< you killed it before you get a stinking seed.
    Posted 90 days ago by Mistress*of*Fishies Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the majority of the time but when I shuck 50 rubeweed I nearly ALWAYS get 200.

    It's worth bearing in mind that you  get 1 rubeweed per seed, but 3 yellowcrumb -  with super-harvests of 2 or 6 respectively... so you need to plant a lot more rubeweed to get a stack of 50. 
    Posted 90 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Posh, the economy of a game it's a matter of equilibrium. This is even more important in Glitch, where there's also a (perhaps) non-obvious relation between currants - img - favor. If you increase the rate at which currants enter the economy, you must also increase the rate at which they get sucked out of the economy or you'd end up with rampant inflation. This is one of the reasons why the rare items vendor experiment had to be introduced, and this is the reason of this thread.

    In this particular case you can either:
    1) Reduce the rate at which currants enter the economy through shucking -> vendoring seeds to bring it in line with everything else; or
    2) What you propose - increase the rate at which currants enter the economy through all other ways to bring it in line with the gains from yc shucking, *and* also increase the rate at which currants exit the economy by increasing all vendor prices to keep the economy balanced.

    1) seems way simpler, doesn't it?
    Posted 90 days ago by Heatseeker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Heatseeker - I remember the massive debates when the voting system first started appearing. From the outset it was presented as a way for players to help TS prioritize their activities, and/or have input about the interface to the game (as in fox for fibers versus alpacas, not that we knew that's what they'd be providing). Mechanical and overall design changes (such as how to best fix the bug) were not implied back then (yes they did say 'some' design changes, but I defer this back to the alpaca/fox example) and shouldn't be fuzzied into the issue now.

    ETA: I think a forum topic for input and discussion with the player community is exactly the right approach and am glad to see TS has opted for it.
    Posted 90 days ago by Wandering Confusion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wandering Confusion, we can also say that not many times before now we'd be given the choice on how to fix a bug. There's a precedent for everything, and as Stoot said, this is their experiment of getting the community involved in something before it happened.

    Completely agree with you, and am happy we were even given a chance to voice our ideas and opinions *before* the fix is implemented. I'm sure TS knows what's best, and how little of a percentage from the total players even frequent the forums, much less voice their opinions in a forum.

    And that's all I'm going to say on the topic of voting, this is not the thread for it, and don't want to derail from the topic at hand.
    Posted 89 days ago by Heatseeker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Hellyeah and Holly Waterfall:
     "the first is fixing the bug and thereby reducing the number of seeds produced by shucking"

    I test software for a living, and if I manage to let something like this into the field, I change it with a quick explanation and a smile. :-)

    Stoot and staff again lead the way in managing their player base.  Thanks again.
    Posted 89 days ago by FlatEarther Subscriber! | Permalink
  • changing the price will force people to try to sell them in another way... IMHO fix the 2.66 number/calculation
    Posted 89 days ago by UXRoot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 to Wandering Confusion - I would hate to see a voting opportunity squandered on something so fiddly and mechanical as this.

    I would also agree with those who'd rather see the bug fixed, but also would be glad to see this problem addressed with more focus on the old plans to continue removing the scaffolding from the vendor-facilitated economy.
    Posted 89 days ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am very in favor of option two. I've always felt that it's ridiculous that the seeds are worth as much as the flower itself was. In fact, to that extent, I'd actually prefer seeing the values of all herb seeds (and possibly even the flowers, if needed) reduced, rather than increasing the value of tinctures, as that may have an adverse effect on the tincture vs potion value ratio. Many potions (Charades as an example) still don't feel valuable compared to the tinctures needed to make them, much less the herbs needed to make the tinctures, and, in my opinion, at least, the tincture costs of PM3 potions still feels too high (though I suppose that may change in time with this update).

    All that said, I'm really looking forward to the day when it becomes viable to actually add a floor to my tower specializing in potions, rather than having said potions feel like a "waste" of good herbs.
    Posted 89 days ago by Zigniber Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't think that fixing the bug is a good solution.  It's a big problem for newer players without skills.  Even players with rank one herbalism would have a reasonable chance of simply fizzling upon getting their first yellow, purple or silvertongue seed.

    I think the right idea is to lower the list value of seeds so that shucking herbs does not increase their value.  It's instant and doesn't cost energy - there is no need for it to produce value.  Plus, it necessitates increasing the value of tinctures and potions for a sort of obscure reason, basically it means admitting that herbs are worth more than their list price.  If we are admitting that herbs are worth more than their list price, why not increase their list price?

    Zigniber makes a very good point as well - tinctures and potions probably both need list value increases because right now they just aren't "worth" the herbs.

    As for the correct value of herbs that is being discussed, there is no right answer.  When you are gathering herbs you could be doing something else, so the correct value of herbs depends on much your time is worth.  If we want purple and yellow to be the same value, then (value of yellow - value of time to harvest and replant a garden) needs to be equal to (value of purple - value of time to harvest and replant a garden) * 9.  But we all have different values for our time which depend on what skills we have and to an even greater extent how we play.  And of course that is assuming we play 24 hours a day.  In reality if you play for two hours, once a day, then you could only get three purple harvests to one yellow harvest.  If you also play in the morning just to garden then it because four to two.  If you only log in every few days and play for around an hour then you get the same number of harvests of each.  Basically they can't be equivalent, and if you want pure monetary value then having long and short growing times is a benefit since it allows you to maximize both your play and non-play hours.
    Posted 89 days ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I cry a little on the inside when I shuck flowers and it seems like one after another gets destroyed. Then it hurts more when it seems half the flowers I grew just went for seeds to replant. I would much prefer the shucking results not be changed but the value of the seeds be adjusted. I always thought it odd that the seed value for some is the same as the flower value.
    Posted 89 days ago by Faux Paws Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Wandering Confusion

    Great math there, someone actually did exactly the same in a blog post I read a few weeks back. The problem with the math though, is while it looks good on paper, it doesn't take into account two things.

    Guano which reduces yellow to a 12 minute harvest.
    The amount of work and cost involved with harvesting purple and replanting each time. Including guano costs and potions if used.

    Purple on a street is useless, because it has such a small payoff. Players are not going to come back to that street again to collect it.

    Yellow on the other hand, is a big payoff, players can come back in a few hours and grab it again.

    On player home gardens, everyone can use guano to harvest 4 times an hour for a profit of about 200k.

    Purple wins on paper, but yellow wins in reality.
    Posted 89 days ago by Ramus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My opinion? Keep the shucking rewards (2.66 or whatever) but change the price of the seed. 54 currants for the seed is a little excessive. I agree that there should be a change in the price of things, seeds should cost little, flowers a little more, tinctures a lot more and potions a lot. It makes more sense that way. I used to make and sell tinctures but now I just sell the seeds. I'm not focused on currants and I don't understand why so many people obsess over their currants. There really isn't much to spend currants on that you need especially at high levels. Rare items should be a challenge to obtain that's the whole point of them being rare.

    And for all the rage quitting talk. Get over it and enjoy the game. If your focus is a large bank account you are playing the wrong game. (I get it, we all have different goals but the goal of Glitch is to have fun!) I'm more concerned with my iMG than my currants I rarely have over 50K and I usually just spend it on the gardening potions. This "nerf" as they are calling it is actually much needed to balance out the game.
    Posted 89 days ago by Papa Legba Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Personally, I'd prefer Option #2.

    When I got started with herbalism, I had a hard time finding yellow crumb - I was running the routes at the wrong time, or behind someone else, or the like. I got luck and found 4 yellow crumb, which I gingerly shucked for seeds. From those seeds, I grew enough to be self-sustaining for all my gardens. Due to the number of seeds per shuck, some of the newbie mistakes I made were not as bad as they could of been (my first garden was in my front yard, and I got visited early on by the harvest and plant purple flower fairy).

    Reducing the cost of the seeds solves the over-all issue without putting true newbies in a harder position, and I support that.
    Posted 89 days ago by Aedus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And for all the rage quitting talk. Get over it and enjoy the game.

    There isn't much at the moment?  I think because it's not happened yet... so hopefully they are pre-empting the shock of logging in and suddenly everything changing, at least for some people
    Posted 89 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, I definitely like the forewarning. And there is a general sense from some people that this is a deal breaker for them hence the mention of rage quitting. Oh well. Why can't we all just get along? I feel the need to send fruit baskets to the TS head quarters. Poor devs, all this negativity we send their way.
    Posted 89 days ago by Papa Legba Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Whatever Humbabella decides works best for game mechanics, is fine with me. That brilliant octopus has never steered me wrong.

    I just think it's adorable and great that TS is posting this thread and soliciting feedback instead of just doing the nerf. That last nerf caught me off guard and I feel MUCH better having a day or two to mentally prepare for this one.
    Posted 89 days ago by EgIantine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd really prefer to see option two for two reasons.

    First is that I've been growing a lot of yellow crumb lately but not really enjoying it. I'd prefer to see it fall more in line with other activities so I can do more varied things and still save up for the rare items i'd like to buy. At the moment farming herbs is the best way to make money in the same way upgrade cards were the best way to make IMG.

    Second I would like to make more fun potions, such as charades and rainbow, but because of the total imbalance between what their worth (both currant wise and fun wise) I don't do this as much as I'd like. For example if i could use a charades potion more than once it might be more worth the cost. I make esensse of purple because a trip to visit the Scion is priceless and far outweighs the value i'd get selling the herbs i use to make the essense.

    Stuff shouldn't be worth less than what goes into it. I'd like to see the cost of herbs, seeds, tinctures and potions better reflect what goes into them and what we get out of them.
    Posted 89 days ago by ThursdayNext Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It seems to me that fixing the bug would result in yellow, et. al being rarer, and thus increasing their worth in the player-based economy, rather than decreasing it. Sure, it fixes people shucking flowers just to sell or donate them, but if you want them for other things, they are going to be alot harder to get a hold of. Maybe most people don't want them for other things, but I do: I like making tinctures and potions.
    Posted 89 days ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Ramus - the only reason the math doesn't work for you is that you wouldn't put guano on purple. Yellow reduces to 22 minutes on the harvest, not 12 min. Everyone can use guano on any plant. I'm confused enough I just might (and do). That said - I can and do make more harvesting my Purple than you do harvesting your Yellow. The additional harvesting also means I earn more iMG for my efforts than you do.

    ETA: I still think Option 3 - adjust the base harvest.
    ETA Moar: Maybe that's a fix in itself right there - What if guano only one guano worked on Yellow?
    Posted 89 days ago by Wandering Confusion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not only is gardening not a leisure activity but you also need a phD to understand it.
    Posted 89 days ago by Otto Otto Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ramus - On paper and reality line up as long as you do the paper right.  The math I did to show that purple was better than yellow didn't involve guano and came with a number of riders about how you actually play the game.  Since the majority of a 9 hour growing time probably happens when you aren't playing the game, yellow is usually the thing to do.  Mostly I just wanted to show that purple wasn't as bad as people seemed to think.  It turns out, of course, that in your own private garden doing anything other than buying up all the guano you can get and growing yellow is basically a declaration that you care more about your way of playing the game than you do about making money (which you ought to, of course - but if you really want the money then it's all about max accelerated yellow until they nerf it)..

    More recently I did an analysis of dung-kicker drops which clearly only works for yellow.  The thing about guano is that if you use it on yellow then it saves you just over 4 hours of growing time (well, probably three and a quarter hours because you likely have the growing time reduction).  If you use guano on something else it saves you less time.  Unfortunately the price of guano is always going to rise to what people who are using it on 9-hour grows are willing to pay, so it will never be useful for slower grow times.
    Posted 89 days ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Can anyone please explain me this seed and flower thing like if i was really dumb?
    I didnt understand...
    Posted 89 days ago by lolol Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Otto Otto - The point of trying to get this right is to reduce the amount of math that needs to be done.  A good analysis of gardening is always going to be complex, but as a player of the game you should be able to you should be able to say, "I want hairball flowers, so I will plant hairball flowers" and "I want them faster so I will use guano" and not be wasting a ton of value.  That sort of intuitive decision making should work.  People who do the analysis will always be able to eek more value out, but it shouldn't be that much more.

    lolol - The simple version is, yellow crumb flowers are worth 66.  If you shuck them you get an average of 2.66 seeds, which are also worth 66.  So instead of 66, you get 176.  As a result of this, growing yellow, shucking it and selling the seeds make money really, really fast (too fast, hence the coming nerf).
    Posted 89 days ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Pot is not going to be a happy giant.

    Now what will he munch on when watching a ball game, if I'm not donating 900+ YC/day?
    Posted 89 days ago by XD Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Humbabella, ty for the short version (^w^)
    I think there is nothing wrong with that...I mean...people only buy yellow crumbs if they want...they are not "forced" to buy yellow crumbs...if they don't want to buy it...well, just plant them...
    Posted 89 days ago by lolol Subscriber! | Permalink