Topic

[Updated] Nerf Warning: Yellow Crumb, Purple and Silvertongue

Note: the original "Solutions" section of this post has been updated with more information. The changes described in this post have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

Executive Summary
In a few days we are going to make a change to the shucking behaviour of certain herbs and/or alter some herb and seed prices. What follows is a long explanation of why and a short description of some of the alternatives we are considering.[1] Feedback is welcome.

The Problem
Right now you can take a single yellow crumb flower and, given the right upgrades, shuck it to produce, on average, 2.66 yellow crumb flower seeds.

The flower and the seeds both have a base cost of 66 currants — but since one flower nets you 2.66 seeds, the act of shucking turns your initial 66 currants into 176 currants instantly. As The Rube would say: “Great deal, great deal”.

(The same is true of Purple Flower and Silvertongue, just with different base costs.)

It is fun to make lots and lots of money quickly (or lots and lots of favor, or lots and lots of iMG, or, in general, to watch your numbers go up quickly), but it is not a good thing for the game in the long term: inflation makes the game much harder for new players and renders whole other parts of the system useless because the “return” on other activities is so poor in comparison (which, in turn, reduces the choices available to return-minded players of all levels — it is harder to justify the actions/strategies that they more genuinely enjoy if something else is so over-powered.)

Background
There are two general classes of herbs: the first class (Gandlevery, Rubeweed, Rookswort, Hairball Flower) grow one herb per garden plot. Shucking any of these for seeds will always produce two seeds for each herb shucked. (For simplicity, I’m ignoring the effect of any upgrades, higher level skills, etc., and just talking about the base behaviour.)

The second class of herbs (Yellow Crumb Flower, Purple Flower, Silvertongue) grow three-per-plot and shucking these herbs for seeds is a more delicate operation: each time you shuck you have a chance of getting 2 seeds, a chance of getting one seed and a chance of getting nothing … the seeds are smaller and more delicate and harder to extract.

The odds for getting seeds from shucking the herbs in the second group were supposed to work with two random “dice rolls”, each with a 33% chance of producing a seed (and a 66% chance of producing nothing). Those two rolls together meant you had a 66% chance of getting a seed each time you shucked (really 66.6666…% — if you shucked a million seeds, you’d get 666,667 seeds, or very close).

However, when we set everything up to introduce herbs in the first place, the shucking odds were reversed and each dice roll had a 66% chance of producing a seed, instead of a 33% chance. This went unnoticed for a really long time (more than a year!) until we decided to look into what made Yellow Crumb farming so profitable and popular.

(You can see plainly how Class One herbs and Class Two herbs are totally out of balance when it comes to prices, shucking, and seeds by comparing the results of shucking: again assuming no higher level skills or upgrades, a sprig of Gandlevery, worth 40 currants, will produce 2 Gandlevery Seeds worth 13 currants each / 26 total: a 35% loss; one Rubeweed worth 55 currants will produce 2 Rubeweed Seeds worth 20 currants each / 40 total: a 27% loss, etc. Each of the Class Two herbs, on the other hand, will produce a 33% gain when shucked. With all the upgrades it is profitable to shuck all herbs from both classes: it is just much, much, much more profitable to shuck Class Two herbs.)

[Updated] Solutions
Note: the changes described here have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

We are going to be reducing the base cost of the seeds by half. (Contrary to what some players have said in the comments, this effects both the number of currants the vendors will give you for them AND the amount of favor produced when they are donated.)

This change will be made on Monday the 17th.

In addition, we will also be making changes to the base cost of tinctures (all of them will be increased) and to both the cost and ingredients required for nearly all potions (in all cases the prices will go up and the number of ingredients required will go down). This will make tincture and potion-making profitable and provide another avenue for herb usage aside from shucking and selling/donating seeds. The specifics on those changes will be announced when the change is live.

The original "Solutions" section follows, in italics:
There are two solutions we’re considering and they are both pretty straightforward: the first is fixing the bug and thereby reducing the number of seeds produced by shucking; the second is reducing the base cost of the seeds (which will make them worth less at vendors or when donated to shrines).

Even with this change, it will still be profitable to simply shuck herbs (once you have all the right skills/upgrades) so we will also be rebalancing the base costs for tinctures and potions to make it worth at least as much to create a tincture (or use the herbs for other purposes) as it would be shuck the equivalent number of herbs. That could mean some improvement/boost in the herbs’ “functionality” as well.


___
[1] In the past we've only announced changes at the time we made the change because we figured that was the fairest thing for everyone (people who missed the announcement were not at a disadvantage and everyone felt the effects at the same time). But when we made the change to upgrade tickets earlier this week there were many requests for advanced notice and so we’re trying that, as an experiment.

Posted 90 days ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I vote for option 2, the reduction in price. Getting used to fewer currants is relatively easy. Fewer seeds per shuck, however, has the potential to be very frustrating and could spell the end of the Herb Route.
    Posted 89 days ago by Sheepy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i also vote for option 2...i like to have more seeds....
    Posted 89 days ago by lolol Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I vote for option 2 as well. High yields and cheap seeds encourage replanting community gardens.
    Posted 89 days ago by Lucille Ball Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I prefer option 2.  Because I care more about making potions than money.  Potions make life in Ur fun for everyone.  Money is just boring.  (maybe that attitude is why I always have so little of it)
    Posted 89 days ago by Miss Portinari Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Wandering Confusion

    Here's an ancient spreadsheet I created back in the OMG HERBS ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN VEGETABLES!!! NO FAIR!!!! days.

    https://docs.google.com/a/giantmice.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhCAOHc-7FxAdE9DaUJscG5DamJwZTJqNE0xSVQ5aXc#gid=0

    It takes into consideration the old plot sizes. At the time, assuming you were in a McMansion, you could make more from a number of the vegetables (Broccoli, Cabbage, Carrots, Potatoes, and Zucchini) with Potatoes & Zucc being the most profitable. But now that plot size is irrelevant, herbs are significantly better. 
    Posted 89 days ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Awright, had to skim the majority. Wish I had known there was insane amounts of money to be made with YC, would have sold so that I could earn back some of the money I have wasted trying to complete the cubimal trophies.

    Anyways, adjust the herb things, do what is necessary.

    However, I feel that it would be appropriate to adjust the growing times as has been previously mentioned.

    I also like zogje, karibean and Heatseekers suggestions a lot. As someone who is about to watch his subscription expire and not renew, there are other things that I think require addressing with the same sense of urgency as keeping the game welcoming to all players.

    I know a lot of the returning players cite their social interaction as a major reason to return. While this speaks very highly of the Glitch community, for those of us like me, who have a couple of people I speak with and remember the excitement of a game that knew very little bounds when it was first launched...this is simply not enough.

    I hope that TS considers the old timers in this next stage as much as the new blood.

    Also, thanks for the advance warning, it's appreciated!
    Posted 89 days ago by rorschach Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh! and I very much appreciate the advance notice. And, though it will slow down my donating, I am all for the nerf. I'm growing very tired of gardening and rediscovering other activities will be fun.
    Posted 89 days ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My vote is with option 2 too.
    Posted 89 days ago by Nerfer-Lily Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd vote for #2 as well.  While I know both options amount to approximately the same thing, I think a lower price on the seeds would encourage people to continue replanting in community and street gardens - if only psychologically since they'd be putting a smaller currant value of seeds (but overall ~ the same percentage of harvest) back into replanting a garden.
    Posted 89 days ago by Tribeca Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like option 1 because I have a lot of yellow crumb seeds stored up.
    Posted 89 days ago by Touya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 advance notice.
    The proposed change(s) don't impact me in any way.
    +1 zogje's (sp?) notion of dynamic pricing.
    Posted 89 days ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Touya: Sell them? If you are saving them for donating then nothing is going to change, as far as we know. It will only matter if you wanted to vendor them for money.
    Posted 89 days ago by Ramus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Touya-- sell 'em. Sell 'em now.

    --Me
    Posted 89 days ago by SchWM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As before, I strongly favor reducing the currant value of the seeds. The chance of getting 0 seeds is already dismayingly high for people working with small amounts.
    Posted 89 days ago by Pupusas Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Donations are based on item value so saving them to donate later doesn't make sense. Its most likely if the price change it won't be that the vendor buys just yellow for less it'll be the base cost is less which will affect donations.
    Posted 89 days ago by ThursdayNext Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Experiments are awesome :)

    I feel bad for some of my friends :/

    My vote: reduce vendor buy back price of the seeds (you will NEVER hear me suggest that again) but it is too important for those herbs mechanics to be maintained given their tincture requirements (ESPECIALLY PURPLE).
    IMO

    Thanks for the warning TS- you warning us is one of the nicest things I have ever seen an MMO do :)
    Posted 89 days ago by Mt Dew Me Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Awh... Yeah what I said will be hidden amongst the eleventy hundred post, but I shall say it anyway :p
    Playing Glitch for a few hours bearing this upcoming nerf in mind, I get really sad. I hated gardening myself, but I loved a LOT of the activities revolving around the 'production of the yellow.' Things like gathering guano, or the raw materials for the potion (gas/bubbles). I predict the guano/bubbles/gas market will crash soon :(
    Now that it's going to be gone, I don't remember what else I used to do in glitch :p
    Posted 89 days ago by purple goldfish Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I vote Option 2.. and agree w/ Miss Portinari... potions make fun for everybody.  I'd rather have less money per seed and have more purple scion taking, rainbow jumpin, de-embiggified glitches everywhere.  
    Posted 89 days ago by Ooola Subscriber! | Permalink
  • First, my apologies to xombiekitty - I shouldn't respond when I've got my grump on.  

    Second, yes.  reduce the colored seed prices.   Perhaps, if possible, in increments over a weeks time so that people who don't come to the forums notice it slowly rather than all at once.  
    Posted 89 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You know what, I'll get used to it. I feel for the people who use them for donations, i get what the end goal here is, and i respect it.

    I'm just glad I made enough money this week selling my SDB yellow to finally get my poor sad broken cubi, to go with my potato and spigot - i mean sure, i'd like a yeti too, but i'll live.
    Posted 89 days ago by Pixieyelsraek Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd prefer option 2, if only because not long ago I was running herb routes unskilled and struggling to break even on replanting.

    I'm inclined to agree that guano is part of the problem -- it's taking a thrice-a-day high-profit activity and turning it into an all-the-time high-profit activity.  I like the suggestion on capping its use somehow, much like the upgrade tickets and quoin potions are capped.

    (In my own Idealized Perfect World, yellow crumb would keep its shucking rate and its high value, but guano would function like skill acceleration does now: you'd get a flat reduction in time per application rather than a percentage, and repeated applications could only ever shave off a maximum of half the herb's total growing time.  But that wouldn't solve Purple Flower at all.)
    Posted 89 days ago by Alopecurus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Another reason to favor a reduction in price as opposed to shuck yield is that a reduction in price discourages people from hoarding seeds before the nerf.
    Posted 89 days ago by Pupusas Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm late to the party here, but I also favor option 2. It doesn't make sense to me that a seed, which requires time and resources, would be the same price a a fully-functional flower. Reducing the shucking rate would just make things harder for new players, and I feel it would not balance the herbs as effectively as a price drop for seeds.
    Posted 89 days ago by Zen Biped Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well whatever the decision is I hope at least 24 hours notice is given. I don't want to come back here in 8 hours to find it's all done and dusted and I chose the wrong path.
    Posted 89 days ago by Mount Aspen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have a suggestion that may or may not have been mentioned in the 3 pages of comments prior to me seeing this post (so I'm sorry if it's already been said)...

    It seems to me that if there are 2 classes of herbs, and only the 1st kind "works correctly" the most graceful solution may just be to simplify.  Make all 7 types of herbs the 1st kind and be done with it.  Simple, effective, and eliminates potentially confusing code all at once.  :)
    Posted 89 days ago by Nerd of Epic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like option 2 as well more seeds less currents makes a gardener happy.
    Posted 89 days ago by Jellybelly Baby Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I never noticed the differences since I hardly ever sell anything (not just herbs, anything) and only shuck herbs left over from making essences: but for what it's worth, solution #1 seems to be the most rational.
    Posted 89 days ago by Crinkle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the purpose of 2 kinds of herbs is variety. The weeds vs the orchids.

    Also, guano doesn't need a nerf. The market is doing fine increasing its value from 15 to 120+ for weeks...even before the Rare vendors guano regularly went for 80.

    It is a pain in the butt to collect, takes time, and unlike tree harvests there are essentially no newgies doing and selling the excess. (certainly one of the few "mastery" activites in game along with radial and foxes.) 
    Posted 89 days ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That shouldn't trouble me, I only shuck herbs to get seeds to plant rather than sell or donate.
    Posted 89 days ago by Anaglyph Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd rather the price be lowered- for newbies, it shouldn't be any harder to get enough seeds to replant than it already is. Thanks for the advance warning! I really agree with this nerf- thank you so much. I had finally found a way to grind that worked for me- yellow crumb- which meant that I did just that. I felt obligated to grind iMG. I'm glad you're balancing it out.
    Posted 89 days ago by Fernstream Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As I figured, the DAMN cost of these seeds has been undercut SO DAMN LOW that it's better to just sell them to the tool vendor now, ugh.
    Posted 89 days ago by Serra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with all of what Humbabella said. Everything he discussed works on an experimental basis, and he’s never steered me wrong so far, as Eglantine mentioned.

    He's a genius and TS ought to simply hire him as their in-house economist/game balancer.

    In unrelated game balance news, Hum made a blog post somewhat recently on the methods of gathering that are available in the game. He found that harvesting all the things that fall off trees, or harvesting anything that comes off a butterfly, chicken or pig, either activity not both together, is about three times as effective at producing currant value as straight mining sparkly or straight jellisac harvesting. Barnacles and dirt piles were found to not even reach the profitability levels of mining! (This is using the vendor value of items, but in a game of such abundance as glitch items DO tend to balance out to about the vendor value or less, so it’s not erroneous to calculate that way, in my opinion.)

    Now, one can argue that currant value is just currant value. But one can take currants and transform them into ANYTHING in glitch, basically. One can easily buy food to get energy for currants, buy things to donate to get iMG with currants, or even buy resources to make any item/building they want for currants.

    So really I’m saying those that argue that are wrong ;) That knowledge of the flexibility inherent of currants in mind I think we can agree that it is necessary to make all things somewhat equal to achieve stoot and company’s stated goal of having a diversity of actions taken within the game by all types of players.

    Right now it makes a hell of a lot more sense to me to farm 75 plots of yellow crumb, expending 10 odd minutes of my time to harvest, shuck, water, weed, replant and sell the seeds for about 50k, and buy that 6250 chunks of sparkly I want (And that’s assuming 8c per sparkly which isn’t always a valid assumption, often it’s as low as 5-7c a sparkly) rather than spending roughly 108 minutes to gather that much sparkly myself.

    Even when this nerf goes into effect, I will still be FAR better off farming my 75 plots and using the profits to purchase chunks. Animal gathering follows the same principle. Why spend 108 minutes gathering 6250 sparkly when I can gather the currants to buy that same 6250 chunks of sparkly in roughly ⅓ the time by farming animal goods in Groddle Meadow?

    I say it’s about time the call was made for all in game activities to receive a little more attention from those at TS who are math-minded. I think you’ll find, as Hum did, that the more obscure activities like peating, digging, scraping, scooping, or fireflying and even some very popular activities such as mining could use some slight taps in the profitability direction.

    TL;DR Yellow Crumb and game cards aren’t the only aspects of the game’s equilibrium that need adjustment. There are a lot of activities that really have deserved buffs for a very long time.
    Posted 89 days ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Edited to remove unwarranted assumption made by someone who doesn't know what they're about.

    --Me
    Posted 89 days ago by SchWM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The coding would be a nightmare but I like Zog's idea from page one !!
    Posted 89 days ago by BlackWolf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • two really minor/OT points:

    (responding to something now deleted) 1) re: HumbabellA is not a boy - "a" at the end of a name signifies femaleness in not all languages/cultures, and besides, even in a language/culture where it does, if that's what you're basing your thoughts of someone's identity on it's a very tenuous argument.

    2) re: voting - asking for and considering feedback is not the same as leaving it up to the players and for good reason.  In a thread format they can get detailed thoughts, plus they aren't going to be locked into what the majority says, when a lot of people are going to vote based on not all the facts that we've been presented with and there might be some facts we don't even know.
    Posted 89 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • SchWM - I'm fairly sure he told us he was when we kept calling him a her ages ago. 
    Posted 89 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Off-topic and unimportant point of personal pique removed. Nothing to see here, please move along. :)

    --Me
    Posted 89 days ago by SchWM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Diave, I know Hum, and have talked with him many times. He's a loving father and most certainly a man xD His username is just that. A username. 

    Edit: Heh I now realize I totally misread your post. I see now that you were talking to another person :) Apologies.
    Posted 89 days ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mostly skimmed page one but I prefer option 2, seeds worth less but shucking still producing the same amount. But that's mainly because I never really used shucking to make money and I like tinctures and potions much better, so I'm pretty thrilled to hear they'll actually be worth more than the ingredients used now. It always struck me as odd that something expensive to make could be worth less than what you used to make it, especially considering the fact you need skills, items and time to make them.

    Edit: I just read Humbabella's blog post linked above and it is very true that mining is a severely unbalanced activity when compared to everything else. Not only does it take much longer than other activities (starts at 20 seconds, with all the upgrades+skills it's still 4 seconds, and Mining IV is one of the skills that takes the longest to learn) the return really just isn't very good.

    It seems to me that there are steps being taken in the right direction regarding nerfs (because no activity should be super profitable) but something has to be done regarding buffs for some things, too. Mining, scraping, jellisac harvesting and digging seem really unrewarding compared to other activities. Jellisac harvesting in particular can drain your energy really fast without even small mood gains to balance it (while animal harvesting gives better img, mood, and more items for less than half the energy cost). I can nibble a piggy for 4 meat instantly and gain mood and 12 img for it (and to boot 4 meat will restore 20x the energy it took me to get them) or I can toil away at a sparkly for 3 to 8 chunks for the same amount of img, no mood and a higher energy cost on top of some pick wear.

    I understand that adjusting mining would have a pretty big impact, since it's important for a number of things related to alchemy and metalworking (and some alchemical compounds are in turn important for donating to shrines and growing trees and so forth), but really, I'd rather they become harder to make to balance the changes in mining than make faces at a sparkly for giving me only 3 chunks after I spent 4 seconds mining it with all the skills and upgrades.
    Posted 89 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There are a lot of activities that really have deserved buffs for a very long time.

    As I mentioned earlier... food and eating.  How often do you see Glitches say - with pride - "I never eat."  Look at the auctions for herbs, ore or metals and compare them with the auctions for food.  I know they're trying, but frankly 1/3 of the skill tree is worthless because most players refuse to eat.  
    Posted 89 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ...Food and eating too, definitely. I saved the cooking skill tree for second to last (meditation-related skills for last) and I didn't miss out on much (it's a pretty quick tree to learn, but it seems like a waste of brain capacity/time penalties to learn it early on). I never really feel the need to cook, either. Seems like growing/gathering the ingredients for cooking is more rewarding than cooking itself. Drinks seem even less useful, with tool repair to restore 25 mood per tick for pretty much free. It's a pity because cooking's actually pretty fun.

    My first skill tree was the animal one (sans fox brushing which I saved for later along with the building tree) and I don't regret it, it's the most cost effective one for newbies since it takes pretty much no other skills to take full advantage of it (while something like cooking does require harvesting skills to take advantage of).
    Posted 89 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • we will also be rebalancing the base costs for tinctures and potions to make it worth at least as much to create a tincture
    would that make them cost more?

    I like the second solution better than first one
    Posted 89 days ago by acreditando Subscriber! | Permalink
  • WalruZ - it's not that I refuse to eat (using me as an example), it's that I rarely have reason to eat. My energy pool right now is ~5000. Let's say I use it all up, I have a couple choices...

    a) Eat Food - which I never have on hand because it would take about a bag's worth to fill me up. (ok, just over 2 stacks of Awesome stews)

    b) Grab a new energy upgrade... fills me up and gives me mood, too! woot!

    c) Die, go to hell, use a get out of hell free card... with full mood and energy. Which is just one stack (or, really, just a part of a stack.

    It's not that I refuse to eat, it just makes no sense to eat or to lug around all the food to eat. If eating made sense, I'd totally do it.

    ETA: I do drink. In fact my bag labelled "food" is actually filled with drinks. I drink because the drinks can be useful. Food, not so much.
    Posted 89 days ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Perhaps the energy/mood boosting effects of food should be relative to tank size rather than fixed (maybe with a minimum restore amount so they're still useful to newbies)? That would help make them more useful with a bigger tank. As it is it's a lot more advantageous to just nibble a couple of piggies and eat the meat (spend 2 energy, gain a minimum of 40 per nibble). Since I personally don't spend much time playing I just use my icons to restore mood and energy, and eat meat when I'm about to croak. When I do eat it's more for the super bonus iMG than anything, and even then, now that I get 40+ iMG per quoin, that's not much of a boost either.
    Posted 89 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't refuse to eat. It's occasionally necessary and I do so then. I do refuse to cook and have zero cooking or drinkmaking skills. A few stacks of piggy meat suffices for a quick energy boost. A stack or two of milk brings my mood back up. Why should the game mechanics be altered to force me to eat more? For an iMG treat I occasionally buy a little fancy food from a friends tower, but eating -especially any fancy prepared food- is not a regular part of my play style anymore. Why should it have to be? If I decide I like making hundreds of flaps of no-no, should other glitches be required to sniff them? Compulsory anything is no good, imho.
    Posted 89 days ago by Feldspar Gravity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If food were buffed (instead of other stuff debuffed) it wouldn't make the other things you do for energy less of a valid choice.
    Posted 89 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • First appreciate the "heads up" and I've never produced my potions or tinctures or herbies for profit ...just do it fun and I do a little this and a little that.  I prefer Option 2 and lordy lordy I just got to make the new ones.  So go for 2, I hope.   (And I so remember herbs when I was a newbie, arg)
    Posted 89 days ago by Tooth Fairy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I personally would prefer to keep the same number of seeds gotten from shucking, but have them worth less.

    Just my thoughts.
    Posted 89 days ago by Serenity's Mommy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Buffing food to be based on tank size would have repercussions.  Suppose an awesome stew gave 200 energy to someone with a 2000 tank and 500 energy to me.  That means I'm easily willing to pay 300 currants for one, likely 375 or more.  But that would be a terrible deal for the glitch with 2000 energy.  So the economy would become based around newer players making things for higher level ones.
    Posted 89 days ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like option two as long as we have a bit of notice so that we can sell or donate anything we have on hand before the value plummets....
    Posted 89 days ago by Koftun Subscriber! | Permalink