Topic

Here are the rules...

"Creating alts and exchanging keys with them to diversify the gardens at your disposal, while clever and resourceful, is not actually ok."
- Blanky

"If I have two characters that don't interact (don't send each other resources or currants, don't share housing), then it's quite easy to not have an advantage."
- Windborn, subsequently endorsed by Blanky

For the benefit of those who couldn't keep up with that thread discussing alts, this is the condensed version. The reasoning and specifics will be set out in a later, more lengthy post, but I'd say that the first line there alone should clarify a lot of doubts. It would probably also mean that most alts that exists out there right now are 'illegal', in some sense, which means that now would probably be a good time to start revoking house keys at the very least.



Those are the facts about how the rules stand today. Now, here are my thoughts, not on whether or not sharing keys and gardens with alts should be legal, but about how the Community Guidelines and changes to the rules to the game are communicated:

First, I think a lot of us had the impression that alts, even the garden sharing variety, were allowed. This can be seen in varies Global discussions, forum threads, etc. When we asked Araldia in Global about this, she referred us to the Community Guidelines, which states:

  • Using bots, mules, or other hacks to gain significant and unfair advantage in the game is not allowed.
  • Multiple accounts controlled by one person playing at the same time is not allowed.


We believed this meant that alts had free reign as long as the same player was not logged in into both accounts at the same time. Apparently, we were really very wrong. If most players believe in the exact opposite of what the rules were suppose to allow, then there must be a breakdown in communication somewhere. So, two things:

  • The Guidelines should be made clearer. For example, what is a mule? What is hectoring? More specifically, how do these guidelines specifically tie into how we play the game?

  • If there is some changes to the rules - I can only assume it was at some point in the past acceptable to have alts for the purpose of growing herbs, given how many people thought this was true - then can the changes be announced as prominently as possible in a timely manner?


As far as I can tell, the thread which Blanky promised has not materialized; the Community Guideline has not been revised. Yet somehow the rules (perceived or otherwise) has changed dramatically. This creates uncertainty and unnecessary anxiety in players who fret over what really should be laid out in a crystal clear manner.

Posted 12 months ago by Boom and Bust Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I have to admit, I was nervous when I logged on today after hearing someone had been suspended, even though my main has never had a key to my alt's house, or vice-versa. Some explanation and clarification would be appreciated!
    Posted 12 months ago by Shiromisa Kaya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Blanky made that post last Friday.  Today is Monday.  Let's give the folks at TS a chance to work on this during the usual work week, eh?  

    Given the carefulness with which this needs to be written, and given that all of the TS staff aren't on the same page yet, I would be surprised if we got the new version before the end of the week.  

    The gossip that someone was suspended for having an alt is just that:  gossip.  We don't know if they were actually suspended and if they were, whether the reason was that they had 2 characters.  Usually situations like this come about because someone was misbehaving in game, not because they were singled out to be made an example of.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's not gossip, apparently: see here.
    Posted 12 months ago by Andobas Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If that person was suspended, I have witnessed a lot of in-game behavior that could have been the cause of their suspension.  As I said, situations like this usually come about because someone was misbehaving in game, not because they were singled out to be made an example of.  

    I don't believe that simply having two characters is the complete story here. 
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It seems there is one case and only one so far where an alt-player got suspended and had the alt account deleted. But there are many people who openly play two alts, people who are not suspended, people whose alts were online today on my Friends list.

    So we don't know why in this one case TS decided on suspension.
    Posted 12 months ago by Vocable Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, I've been thinking about getting an alt but maybe I won't now.    I mostly wanted it to store stuff for so I could allow more people into my house without having the potentially messy situation of having something go missing and not know who did it.   I was always under the impression that alts were ok so long as one didn't gain a significant advantage.  I had hoped that significant would have really meant significant. The only reason I don't have one is that from experience of having an alt in secondlife the experience just becomes less fun when you have one.   You begin to feel distanced from your character and its no longer feels as much like "you".  This can be a good or bad thing depending on how personally you take things that might feel hostile in the game but really aren't intended that way.  Alternatively, people who use lots of alts and get accustomed to it tend to forget that the other characters have real live human beings with real feelings behind them.

    As for advantages in Glitch, frankly, I think any advantage anyone is getting from alts with herb gardens at present is not really significant given that TS has announced a complete overhaul of housing to be coming soon.   If this is the case, the advantage one might be having from having an alt with an herb garden for a few weeks can't be considered significant in the long run.
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • .+1000 to WindBorn!!!! You are amazing for pointing out how much thought and effort TS has to put into this specific issue (on top of everything else going on) and that they deserve ample time to do it. Regarding the individual who is (or might have been) suspended, i currently have them blocked for being rude to me in-game (this was the first time i ever felt it necessary to use the 'block' feature after playing daily for 3-4 months) so i really appreciate you mentioning that aspect of the situation.

    I also would like to voice my faith that while TS is working on this issue, knowing that we are all kind of confused about it (because the wording and situation IS confusing, especially with the added element of house keys) they aren't going to be handing out consequences specifically for alts. It's impossible to follow rules that aren't known and TS seems like a pretty realistic crew. There's my 2 currants. =)
    Posted 12 months ago by starrkittyface Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Its possible that the person being mention had another alt and use that alt to steal from his friends house, although I could be lying.
    Posted 12 months ago by Rook Subscriber! | Permalink
  • (Reluctantly wades into thread...)

    I must agree with WindBorn regarding the player that claims he was suspended for having an alt.  I met the player in-game a number of times. He was irritating and offensive to me and others.

    I also don't believe that having an alt is the full story with this guy. TS may just have found it prudent to call him on the alt account, rather than say, "You're being a jerk. Chill out for a while."

    Whatever the case may be...

    I am impressed with the thought, transparency and service TS has shown and provided. Give them time to sort things out... and enjoy the game in the meantime. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Jesus Christ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • so wait, are we allowed to have a house on are alts to use herb gardens or not....
    Posted 12 months ago by Clone Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Clone

    At this time it would be prudent to revoke the keys between your alts.  Especially if you are using your alt to provide your main with access to a different type of garden.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In chat, other staff said yes. In a more recent forum post, Blanky says no. In any official announcement, there is, as yet, no word.
    Posted 12 months ago by Whym Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can see where players are confused and I know of several players that have an alt. My understanding is that you are cannot be PLAYING the alts at the same time as your main.  I have seen this time and time again. To me that means you are not logged onto both characters that YOU own. I also truly can't understand how having an alt gives you too much more an advantage over someone else. The only advantage I see is those taking advantage of other players by either camping the community gardens and don't allow others to have a turn at growing stuff... that includes those with houses that CAN grow things and just are being greedy by taking over the gardens too.. and those putting things on auction for overinflated prices.

     We only have a choice of a place with veggie patches or herb patches, so those with veggies patches are being held hostage over trying to finish quests and obtain badges. To me this is not what tiny speck intended.

    I love this game but I am getting very sad over some of the stuff I am seeing. It is not becoming nice anymore... it is becoming cutthroat and it makes me hug my bear just a bit closer and cry a little more.
    Posted 12 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Chiming in with more support to Windborn. Give the staff a few days. Maybe even a week or two. We all (players & staff included) want them to get this right and not rush it out leading to even more confusion. 

    In the meantime, use a bit of common sense. A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself "Could I do this as quickly and easily if I did not have an alt?" If the answer is "no" then you are probably crossing the line. 

    As for ima_do_three's suspension... well, think about it. Aside from a few username decisions, which you may or may not agree with, how has Tiny Speck acted in the past? Haven't they always been fair? Now think about how someone who was just suspended might act when posting their goodbye cruel world screed... might it be a bit loose on the details and exaggerate their innocence? Not that I want to tell tales out of school, but as he has made it public knowledge, I have blocked (and reported) exactly one player. The reasons are not important and who knows what, if anything, it had to do with his suspension. But I'm fairly certain that his having an alt was not the sole reason for his suspension and may not have played into it at all. It's really not any of our concern - it's between him and Tiny Speck. And, until there is evidence of mass suspensions due to alts, especially considering the number of folks who have publicly admitted to having them, I think we can assume that TS is not going on a rampage over them. 

    Common sense. We're a smart crowd, we can use it. 

    I understand the concerns and anxiety. I also know much of this is due to the new skills. The herb market is insane right now, but that will not always be the case. And, for a bit of perspective, if you have a 50k house, you can afford herbs... even at their current prices. Plant some zucchini, harvest it & sell it at the tool vendor. You'll earn over 2000 currants in 8 hours... that will buy you enough flowers for an essence or three (depending on what you're making). In a week or so, it'll probably get you enough flowers for twice that... which is a better deal than if you grew the flowers yourself. (You can earn even more if you plant, say, strawberries or cucumbers or onions and do a couple of harvests... here are some figures if it helps in your planning.)
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Vera: +1
    Also, nice spreadsheet! How'd you arrive at those prices? I have long suspected that the floating coconut dude was pulling a fast one ; )Thanks for sharing...
    Posted 12 months ago by mince Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hereby propose TS to scrape herb gardens altogether and introduce a new animal in the world: the skunk. The only interaction: "tail pull." That's how you'd get yer essences. It would solve at least some of the issues people have now.

    Who'd want to make an alt for the sole purpose of even more tail pulling, eh? Eh?
    Posted 12 months ago by Heatseeker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Mince:  

    Tool vendors buy your stuff for 80% value.  The rest buy at 70%.  
    Posted 12 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oops. Just re-read the initial post. Thanks for your patience : D I should stop posting from the tram...
    Posted 12 months ago by mince Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hear what your saying Vera but I WILL NOT pay cutthroat prices. I just won't so I guess I will not be doing those quests... guess they can sit in my quest log and rot. I am the type of player that likes to depend pretty much on myself. I rather grow my own herbs, harvest them and use them for my own uses or give stuff away that I make. I think those of us that have 50k houses are being held hostage at this time... I get that. So much for trying out the new skills huh?
    Posted 12 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How can you be held hostage?  It's quite easy to sell your house and buy another.  You don't even have to wait for a buyer.  

    Unless what you mean is "are being forced to choose".  But that's still entirely up to you.  If you think the benefits of a bog house are better than the benefits of a modern home, you can make that choice.

    On the other hand, if you think the benefits of a modern home are better than the benefits of a bog house, then you can make that choice too.  No one is forcing you to go one way or the other.  Everyone who buys a house has to make exactly the same decision about those benefits.

    There are lots of us who don't have bog houses that are finding the new skills quite enjoyable.  There's nothing about owning a modern house that keeps you from using those skills.  

    On the third hand, perhaps you simply mean:  If I can't grow it myself, I don't want anything to do with it."  Which is a perfectly fine way to play.  But it doesn't mean that anyone is holding you hostage except your own restricted rules for how you want to play.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We need herb vendors.

    Anyone with a bog house can easily buy produce from one of many vendors, and know they're paying a fair price.
    Very few quests/badges actually require you to grow the food from scratch.

    Is there anything you can grow that you can't buy?

    However, if you grow crops you have no choice but to pay whatever extortionate prices they're asking at auction, for herbs.

    Sure they're community gardens, but they're some for crops too.
    Posted 12 months ago by Liz Erd Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You don't even have to buy your own bog house, just buddy up with somebody who has one.

    Just to soothe some fears, I have two accounts, and staff knows I have two accounts.  Until an official policy is announced, I have revoked their keys to each other's houses, just to stick with the spirit of the ToS, as I do agree with Blanky's assessment (despite my concerns about herb growing being insanely difficult and/or stressful for players who have not managed to team up with bog house owners).
    Posted 12 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How is buddying up with someone different from having an alt?
    Anyone with an alt can claim that it's just a buddy. . .
    Posted 12 months ago by Liz Erd Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree there are practical issues with enforcement (and personally, I think enforcement of such a rule is not worth the effort it would cost TS at this point, but that is not my decision to make).  But I think you can tell which obeys the spirit of the law and which does not.
    Posted 12 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree Liz why can't we buy herbs like we can veggies? This seems so lopsided! I can grow veggies but they don't sell worth crap. Yet if you are in a bog house you can sell herbs for heaps! To be fair here if there is produce vendors and we can buy veggies then there should be herb vendors as well where we can buy herbs for a reasonable price.

    Do I want to live in a bog house? No way.. the bogs to me are ugly and the houses are just dark, dank, small, and ugly. I have already looked at that route. The gardens are small and you can only grow eggplants and if your lucky only one tree space anyway to again grow ONLY eggplants. The cabinets are small too.. there are NO 50k bog homes so no bog homes don't interest me at all.. so basically Windborn your saying if we want herbs we either need to pay horrible prices for it on the auction, or try to work with someone in a bog house, or worse give up what I worked hard for... a 50k house.. for a small, dark, dank, ugly little home in the bogs just to complete a few quests. Yes I do have a choice but the choices are rubbish! It is like asking me if I would like to have a lovely house along the beach or cramped ugly apartment in the ghetto. What would YOU choose?

    I don't want to depend on anyone in a bog house because I love being independent and like to do many things for myself. I don't want open my house in a mutual agreement because I don't feel I can trust too many people to not take what I have sitting around in my place and I am sure there is a mutual feeling for others the other way around.
    Posted 12 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You guys realize that the more reasonable response to your "but there are crop vendors!" complaint is to simply remove the produce vendors? Tadaa, now Bog Home owners have to buy crops from other players too. No more imbalance. Just whining.
    Posted 12 months ago by Whym Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Casombra That's cool. I'm not a huge fan of cutthroat prices either. They won't be that way for long. The rush will be over soon things and will stabilize. Prices will drop on auction and the community gardens will become tranquil retreats once again. You can mess around with the new skills then.
    Posted 12 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • CA, you're coming off as kind of a jerk here.  You take a big dump on bog-dwellers' homes, state your unwillingness to buy our product, and ask the developers to destroy the herb market by flooding it with cheap supply to satisty your cheap play-style whim.  That's a whole lot of complete inconsiderateness packed into one little post before even considering the 'ghetto' characterization.   Also, once you start asking the game developers to change the game so you don't have to buy herbs from the auction house I think you have to give up the claim to loving to be independent.  Maybe you're not independent, you're just cheap.

    Look at Vera's spreadsheet.  Herb prices are really not highway robbery here.  If you want to wait for them to drop or just never deal with them, that's your choice, but crapping all over us and suggesting TS take a bite out of our ability to generate revenue shows incredible unawareness of other people and of your self.
    Posted 12 months ago by Zauberberg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is no such thing as an unfair advantage created by alts, because literally everyone can make the same number of alts if they really care to do so. 

    Furthermore, if you can't bring yourself to buy ANYTHING off the auctions because you are pretending that this is a single-player game, and yet cry too much to put an alt in a bog house because it reminds you too much of the ~*~scary non-whites in the ghetto~*~ then maybe you need to re-evaluate your mindset. If you choose to place restrictions on yourself, play by them rather than crying when your OWN rules don't work in your favor.
    Posted 12 months ago by Effigy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Casombra  Wow, relax.  Most MMOs do not allow you to "have it all" and thus the need to rely on other players for some parts of gameplay.  That's what the second M is for.  Auction prices are supply and demand.  Look at the other side of that coin.  Ever try selling food on the Auction?  It doesn't sell for more than you can make dumping it to a vendor.  Should all chefs whine that the game should change to make their product more valuable?  Screaming in desperation of the unfairness of it all?  Nah.  Many Glitches have 100k's of currants laying around by now with nothing to do with them.  Perhaps the devs should consider increasing the prime rate to stave off inflation. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Shootsin Latters Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm housesitting for a bog-dweller right now and am growing some herbs.  I've made some currants on auctions this weekend, but the profits are honestly not terrifically high.  If you're using guano to grow, it takes 3 guano to get one sprig (2/plot, plus you have to destroy your own harvest to get more seeds).   To keep up with the insane demand I've bought some guano on auction instead of going to collect it, so my base outlay is 225/sprig.  People who need to be First! to do the quests, or try the purple essence or door potion, are willing to pay those high prices for their herbs, and then they'll be done. These skills have been out for, what, 100 hours now? As the fuss dies down and herb gardeners are just growing without fertilizer (herbs are very slow, with a very low yield), prices will drop down again.  The quests won't have rotted in anyone's log by the time that happens.  
    Posted 12 months ago by oscarette Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ok Effigy where in my post did I say anything like "~*~scary non-whites in the ghetto~*~"? I didn't, so don't put words into my mouth that I would NEVER say. Your trying to vilify me where there was nothing even close to what I meant. I could have likened it to a broken down hut in a dark forest, a decrepit camp trailer, or a neanderthal cave. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE and it was never MY meaning at all. They are ugly little glitch houses that are too dark, dank, too small, and if you could smell them, probably would smell like mold. They are ugly and way way WAY too small for my preference... I didn't like the tree houses either unless your a bird or Tarzan and I am not either.. those are too cramped and small but if I have a choice I would choose the tree houses over the horrible bog houses. Again CHOICE!

    Also I am not pretending this is a single player game, I know this a MMO. However I have every right to play the game the way I enjoy it. Again I like the social thing when it suits me but not every single second I play. I choose WHEN I feel like I want to interact with other players and when I do not. That is the beauty of this game. Not every MMO is ONLY group stuff... there is many other solo things you can do without having to be in a group to do it.

    Zauberberg if they would take produce vendors off then maybe the veggie growers would have more fair advantage as the herb growers. Right now it is skewed to the herb growers advantage in a big way with no relief in sight for the veggie growers, as we in no way have the possibility to sell our products for the same overinflated prices... so really who is getting screwed here? We can't make potions if we can't grow herbs which equals getting ripped off by overinflated herb prices by herb gardeners, YET veggies can be bought at a produce vendor and bypassing the veggie growers.. hence cheap veggies and cheap food. It is a very skewed to the herb growers favor. @ Shootsin "Ever try selling food on the Auction?  It doesn't sell for more than you can make dumping it to a vendor.  Should all chefs whine that the game should change to make their product more valuable?" Yes I think we should! Again remove the produce vendor and then maybe there would be a more fair balance.

    Your saying I am cheap. Not really but I refuse to be taken advantage of by overinflated prices when veggie gardeners do not have the same advantage to sell our products at the same rates due to game mechanics making it easier to obtain veggies from a vendor over a player.
    Posted 12 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Two points:

    1) IMO it's really not helpful to tell other players what kind of playing experience they should be having. If someone enjoys being self-sufficient and doing all the things themselves, that's the kind of experience they should have. Glitch is admirable in allowing players to craft their own way of having fun in what is (in the final analysis) their own leisure time. Right? There are many different kinds of things to do: some are really fun, some are not-so-much. What's wrong with wanting to do ALL of the things that are fun? I certainly would not waste my free time on a game that won't let me do the things that I enjoy about it! Why on URth would anyone do that?

    2) Glitch is only a tiny, tiny newborn infant of a game. It was only live for approximately 2 months before being unlaunched. Heck, that's not even enough time for a shakedown cruise! The game needs time, and lots of it, before it can find its groove. My prediction is that more player interdependence will come about naturally, because people will discover that there are things that they would rather have others provide for them. But they need more time and playing experience before that can be figured out.  If you add in the massive changes that are coming, we really don't have any idea of what the playing experience is going to BE by the time they get rolled out! Once Glitch gets its groove on and reaches cruising speed, then we'll be able to START to figure out how the whole world is going to work.

    Whew! To anyone who actually made it through that wall 'o text, thank you! <3 But I wanted to add my 2c.
    Posted 12 months ago by Flowerry Pott Subscriber! | Permalink