Topic

Revisiting "Help Mine" topic

I know this enveloped to a huge thread a while back and the pop-up dialog to allow "help mine" was removed, which is fine and all, but I am seeing a huge amount of greed/competition developing (*cough* Ajaya Bliss competition) that is completely against the whole idea of cooperation and teamwork.

Situation:
- Glitch#1 with level 1 mining enters a vacant map say in Salatu with 4 full rocks in it to mine
- Glitch#1 drinks earthshaker and begins mining
- Random Glitch#2 enters map and proceeds to "help" mine the rock
- Now, normally this is fine EXCEPT random Glitch#2 has level IV Mining
- Glitch#2 clears the rock, leaving Glitch#1 hammering at the ground to finish the cycle
- Proceeding to the next rock, the Glitch#1 may get maximum 2 clumps before it is gone
- This action leaves Glitch#1 very upset that this random Glitch#2 is not waiting or "helping", but is instead finishing the rocks and running off.

My friend reported this to me today as her situation and was quite upset over the callous actions of that miner. I then proceeded to the caves (I don't mine much and have level 2 mining) to see for myself. Sure enough, within 15 minutes of mining while waiting to see a ghost, I too was subject to the "help mine" problem and well, felt very cheated.

I'm not a "serious miner" and do not want to be competitive in mining, it's not important to me. If it were, I'd have Mining IV too. That in mind, think about situations such as these before commenting as this has nothing to do with how beneficial it is supposed to be (I agree it is in the long run more beneficial to share mining). However, it seems a bit lopsided.
 
Suggestion 1:
Impose Mining skill level comparison limit to automatically "help", requiring a dialog to allow help. Glitches with skill levels in mining within one level of one another do not require a dialog to "help mine". Anything greater than 1 level requires permission.

Suggestion 2 (per striatic):
The reward when you are helped should be increase by one. If one person helps, you get 2 bonus chunks. if 2 help you, you get 4 bonus chunks. It could also be managed that each and every time you help, the person you help mine gets more chunks.

Suggestion 2A (per striatic): Each and every time someone helps, the person you help mine gets more chunks. If someone is mining slowly because they are at low level, and the helper manages to get three 'helps' in during their single mining action, the player being helped would receive 6 bonus chunks per mining action - assuming the bonus is boosted to 2.  (#helpers x 2chunk=bonus)

Suggestion 3 (Per  Skwid):
This option is "first come, first serve". Mining a node loots the whole node in one go. This could take the current amount of time, or take 5 times longer than mining currently takes, it doesn't really matter as long as spawn times are consistent.

Suggestion 4 (Per  Skwid):
The second one is more in the spirit of Glitch in my opinion, but is much more difficult to implement. (The following is a summary of my interpretation of Skwid's suggestion) Throttle the speed of all players mining together to the same speed as the player with the highest skill level.

Suggestion 5 (Per ICountFrom0):
Make the mining speed of the first miner be the default speed for all others joining to mine. If a level 1 initiates a mining session on a rock, anyone joining to help will mine at the same speed (if lower than their own). This way you will "help" at their speed if lower than your own or mine at your speed if theirs is higher.

Suggestion 6 (Per Biohazard):
When you select the rock, you then choose "Mine!", which sounds a whole lot like it belongs to you. Perhaps this could be changed to excavate or pick (v).

Suggestion 7 (Per Many Many Glitches):
Change "help mine" to help the OTHER person mine their rock, resulting in the helper receiving less rock chunks than the person they are helping (or none at all).

Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • I noticed exactly the same yesterday. In Ayaja Bliss I would consider it a "problem", because it's a closed space for those without teleporting. But outside... there are rocks enough to mine.

    Yesterday a low level player expressed her preference for mining solo, because of her low level mining. Did your friend tell the other player she would rather mine alone?

    About your first suggestion. Maybe I don't understand, but I don't like the idea of asking permission. Instead I would suggest that the "help mine" option only would appear when it's actually helping: when a lower level player wants to help a higher level player. This sounds weird, but the other way around would result in the behaviour described by c0mad0r (higher level player mines whole rock when lower level player is still in his first mining cycle).

    I don't understand your second suggestion.
    Posted 15 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There, I revised the suggestions, thank you Victoria. As for my friend, yes she did ask them to stop and they never responded. Whether it be due to language barrier or just not caring, the result is none the less the same: frustration.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I still maintain that it is not reasonable to ask someone else to stop mining or stop helping to mine.  If you want to mine alone, find yourself a nice unpopular spot, not in the deeps.
    Posted 15 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • TL;DR? Read the 5th paragraph. The long one. ;-)

    My opinion on the matter is that you could discuss and discuss and discuss and discuss the problem and it won't go away without some fundamental changes in the way that mining works. Thanks for making suggestions, this is exactly the kind of thing we're supposed to be doing here during the beta. Props again c0mad0r!

    Mining in Glitch is surprisingly a lot like mining in World of Warcraft used to be. In that someone would tap a node, loot, tap the same node, loot, repeat until the node is tapped out, move on to the next one. Before Blizzard finally threw in the towel and made the big mining change that made all the difference (you tapped a node once and looted the whole damn thing, hallelujah!) people could sneak up on the node you were tapping and then quickly tap it before you could close the loot window and click the node again. People who were fast could literally lock players out of nodes that they had reached first by simply being a faster clicker (or lower latency, which was a real slap in the face). 

    The same sort of problem exists here in Glitch in that you can be clinking away at a node and someone can come up and "steal" part of the node you're working on. This is particularly common with Sparkly, and is frustrating because you're almost always under the effects of an Earthshaker. If someone takes a portion, or most, of the node you're working on that literally cuts into your potential profits (as it forces you to spend more time waiting or searching in between nodes), and if the other player "helps" enough you could actually lose currants during the affair.

    There are several solutions to the problem, but here are 2 big ones and a little one. Little one first: Low-skill miners should not mine in Ilmenskie. Period. There's simply too much competition, and you'll be outgunned all the time. Look through some of the other zones (Kajuu, Groddle Hights, etc…) for streets with a good quantity of nodes (≈6 will do for Mining 1 and 2) that are out of the way from major throughways and mine there. You'll have absolutely zero competition since no one ever goes there to mine, so only people passing through might occasionally tap a sparkly. Get your mining skills up (both in-game and irl) and then find a good niche location in Ilmenskie to clink away!

    The two major changes are the good ones, they cannot be implemented immediately, and require fundamental changes in the way mining currently works. They'll have to be implemented, tested, and then balanced all over again:
    1. Mining a node loots the whole node in one go. This could take the current amount of time, or take 5 times longer than mining currently takes, it doesn't really matter as long as spawn times are consistent. I'd go with longer times since it would create the least amount of balancing issues since the time required to mine would stay consistent. Also, "helping" should be removed with this change so that people will not have to worry about this at all. This option is "first come, first serve".
    2. The second one is more in the spirit of Glitch in my opinion, but is much more difficult to implement. The nodes behave as they currently do (lets say 5 taps for this example) and helping another player does not count as a tap – each player would get 5 taps worth of material. Obviously there is a speed issue here (Mining IV is faster than Mining 1) so in addition, if two or more people are mining a node all players will finish at the speed of the highest-skill player. In other words, players with higher skill mining will, quite literally, be helping lower skill players since the newbie with Mining 1 will finish the node at the speed of the player with Mining IV. In this way friends who are playing together, or players simply trying to help each other can do so fairly and without competing with each other. In fact, it will encourage cooperation and friendship instead of hostility and anger as the system currently does. This is the method I would prefer since since everyone comes out ahead! It would be the most difficult option to balance but I think that this solution would be the best because of its beneficial social effects rather than option 1's simply being "fair".

    Playing with other people is more fun in Glitch than playing against them, and I would like to see this philosophy extend to Mining as it does to every other skill in the game.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I will mine with others, however I had the same happen to me, I only got two pieces of rock and everyone had already got their rocks and moved on? I was still hacking away? how do they do this finish before me when I started the mining? I could not believe the this group could mine so quickly. I had searched for two hours that day for some sparkly which I needed. And I found an area that had like five six in the deeps. This group would finish them in a flash! finally I asked if I could just have one to get what I needed. I was told my the leader of this team  Z--a that they could get all they want. No consideration, no cooperation no nothing like Glitch nice! Z--a. proceed on the new sprouted sparkley!
     once in a while a friendly request would be nice if given. 
    PS: I don't see a better mine outcome when I mine with a load of glitchens! I get one or two rocks but would have gotten more alone! (as she scratches head) Where is the fun if there is a group that jumps from rock to rock? no conversation no nothing! what fun?
    Posted 15 months ago by Joy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Joy, the higher your mining level the faster you mine a rock. I think you encountered a group of high-level miners. I'm afraid once the game goes live you'll see more of this kind of behaviour, it's selfish... :(

    I like Skwid's second proposal better than both of c0mad0rs proposals, they sound balanced but what's even more important very Glitchy. Things like what happened to Joy or c0mad0r's friend wouldn't happen anymore, making cooporative mining fun for everyone.
    Posted 15 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like the proposition of requiring permission to help when there is greater than 1 level difference.  I have no idea how or if this could be implemented.

    What has been the most frustrating to me is when I've been mining solo and a pair of miners comes and joins me, wiping out the rock and then every other rock in the cavern.  I would really like to see mining "help" limited to one player (in other words, allow only two people, total, to mine a rock at one time.)  I get that some people like to mine in tandem, but they shouldn't automatically go to the rock that is currently being worked first, which is the behavior I have observed.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • this will be much less of an issue once the game opens up for longer and a greater percentage of players will have maxed their mining skill.

    it really in't that big a deal. indeed if you start mining a rock and one higher level players swoop in, you're going to end up with extra rocks overall, since they will be "helping" you. you spend less energy, you get more rocks in less time.

    but this doesn't mean that mining shouldn't be changed, but the "ask permission if different level" suggestion comes out of an antagonistic mindset, better would be that if someone with a higher level of mining helps you mine, your mining speed would be increased to match theirs.

    that's skwid's suggestion but i'm not sure it would be more difficult to implement than the other suggestions. indeed i think it is probably easier, as it does not require any additional UI or "rock possession" status. the number of helpers is already being tracked for establishing the bonus chunks, so if there is at least one helper, decrease the total required mining time to match that person's speed, as well as awarding a bonus chunk.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't the patience to figure out all the math behind this, but I really like the idea that helping with resources actually helps.  In my mining behavior, that is what I have been assuming happens.  So I would prefer that the Devs do all the math, figure out how it is affected by differences in levels, and bonuses from drinks and everything else, and make sure that all of the people mining on the same rock get more resources from it than they would if they were mining alone.  Some of the things I like about this game are that you can solo most aspects of it, you can have friends without having to engage in social extortion (ala Farmville), but there is definite positive rewarding of cooperative behavior.
    Posted 15 months ago by KhaKhonsu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You really DON'T end up with extra rocks if someone of a higher level helps you.  Try it and see.  They zoom through the rock, maybe 3 or 4 "mines" while I do maybe one.  So, I end up with 7 or 8, plus the extra I get from the help, instead of the 40 - 50 I would get had I mined alone.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "You really DON'T end up with extra rocks if someone of a higher level helps you.  Try it and see.  They zoom through the rock, maybe 3 or 4 "mines" while I do maybe one.  So, I end up with 7 or 8, plus the extra I get from the help, instead of the 40 - 50 I would get had I mined alone."

    .. do i really have to explain "per mining action" again?

    arg.

    ok. no, you would NOT have had 40-50 if you had mined alone.

    you would have had 40-50 over the course of 5 mining actions.

    when someone helps you, you get extra chunks.

    when you are done, and the rock is gone, you've only completed 1 mining action, in a fifth of the time it would take you to mine a full rock. so you go to another rock and mine that.

    you get more chunks for the amount of energy you spend mining, which is good. the rocks are mined down to nothing more quickly, which means they can start regrowing more quickly, which is good for everyone as it makes the caverns more productive overall.

    "chunks per minute" is relevant. "chunks per unit of energy expended" is relevant. saying you get less "chunks per rock" isn't particularly relevant.

    so please .. please please please please please lose the mental bias around "chunks per rock" .. if you get fewer chunks per rock, it don't matter so long as you're getting more chunks per minute... and even in the situations where you don't get more chunks per minute, when you're getting help you always 100% of the time get more chunks for the amount of *energy* you spend, which is also important.

    grawrrrrrrmentalbiasesgrawwr.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i like "help mine." i typically ask permission (not always). i usually say hi and ask if i can help (except in ajaya -- that place is fair game). that said, there are *tons* of places where it is easy to mine alone. you don't have to be in the caves/deeps.

    instead, try groddle heights or alakol. there is a lot of rock to be had out there.

    also, personally, i find ajaya overrated and overcrowded.
    Posted 15 months ago by emdot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic, please put aside the math for a second and imagine you're a level 2 miner like lovintnt. You can keep telling yourself that those higher level miners are "helping" you, but is sure doesn't feel that way when they finish the rock you're working on when you yourself are only in your first "cycle". True, you get 1 extra chunk for every helper, but they are clearing the map very fast. It feels unfair, like you're being robbed. Even more so when the other miner don't respect your wish to mine alone. So many rocks, why not let the newbie have one?

    This is exactly the situation OP posted. It's frustrating for newbie miners to be helped this way. We are looking for a way to make cooporative effective ánd fun, for miners of all skill levels.

    I don't understand why you react this way to lovintnt's post when this is what we have been discussing all along.
    Posted 15 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, impressive maths striatic. 

    Could you explain that to the Earthshakers?  They don't take into account the time taken walking from one rock to another!  They just run out!!!
    Posted 15 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am not able to fully read the comments because I'm on my phone, and I will come back to comment later. During my time in Groddle Heights replanting bubble trees I came across about 15 sparkles that were not touched. For those who have low mining levels, either learn mining as a priority, or mine where there isn't any competition

    It doesn't make sense to change mining again, if you are mining frequently enough to use earthshakers, you should have full or nearly full mining because otherwise you are wasting your earthshaker anyways spending way to much time per swing of the fancy pick
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also at first glance I liked Skwids idea, but the more I thought about it the less I liked it. If that were implemented, only a few people would need to learn mining and the rest of us could chill in ajaya bliss benefitting from their time spent learning the skill. I could go where high level miners usually go and be working ast the same speed.

    It took me a long time to learn full mining, so its not fair that someone who didn't take the time to learn the skill would get the same benefits as someone who did take that time
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Could you explain that to the Earthshakers?  They don't take into account the time taken walking from one rock to another!  They just run out!!!"

    i can totally explain that to the earthshakers!

    ok so say you are using an earthshaker, and you're mining a rock. other people show up and start mining "your" rock, that you clearly own, egads! by the time you are done your mining action the rock is gone and you need to find a new rock.

    ohnoess the earthshaker will continue depleting while walking to the next rock!

    guess what? the next rock is going to be that much farther away if the people who helped you mine moved on to the next rock available instead.

    and even if it isn't, you still have the bonus chunks to cover the 'expense' of moving to the next rock.

    which is to say that the reason this bothers people is that there is some lizard brain feeling of *i own this! mine! back off!* when you encounter something before another person does, even if sharing that thing is ultimately in your very own self interest.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i should also add, since we are talking about low level mining here, that Earthshakers probably aren't a great choice for the low level miner in the first place.

    Earthshakers get better and better the more chunks you can mine in the time allotted, but at Mining I you're barely going to be able to mine any. Earthshakers cost a minimum of 152 currants from Helga, and more from the mining vendors in the caverns. that means you have to get at least 152 energy worth of mining done in 3 minutes for the earthshaker to be worth it, conservatively assuming that food is only granting you 1 e per c.

    with Mining IV, that's a piece of cake, since you mine so quickly and blow through energy so fast, but i'm not even sure that expending that much energy that quickly is even possible with Mining I.

    edit: in fact, it is difficult to expend that much energy in 3 minutes using Mining IV. mining as quickly as possible, with full rocks perfectly lined up, i was only able to expend 187 energy in 3 minutes of vigorous mining, squeezing out a very small margin over buying food at 1 e per c [conservative ratio]. if you are buying Earthshakers from mining vendors at 456 currants, you're basically throwing money away. it also appears quite likely that if you are mining with anything less that Mining IV, that Earthshakers are less efficient than just eating food, and at Mining I likely incredibly less efficient.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Okay Striatic, so Earthshaker last for what? like 2 minutes? And say it takes 20 seconds for one mining action. Which means on Earthshaker, working on your own, you could use mining action about 6 times. Well, now consider someone "helping" you, but only getting one or two on your rock. Then the other person moves on (or, what is worse in my opinion, follows you... which has happened to me). Thus making you spend more time going to another street (which pretty much always happens). Now add on to that page load time. You're looking at getting 2 or 3 mines in total. So instead of the 50 or so you'd get from mining alone, you get 15-25 total.

    I'd say that's not helping. Hoarding mentality or no, you get fewer chunks per Earthshaker.

    I'm all for helping if its what all parties involved want, but if someone asks you not to, please respect that.
    Posted 15 months ago by Avery♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Avery, if you read my above edit, you will understand that if you are using Earthshakers instead of food at lower Mining levels you are already throwing money [or time] away.

    by the way, moving from one street to the next does not count against earthshaker time. the buff timer stops and then only restarts when the next street is loaded.

    and again if the person skips past you and moves to the next closest rock, they will consume it entirely and you'll have a farther distance to walk to the next one, so even if they 'respect your wishes' they're still diminishing your earthshaker efficiency.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Striatic, while your math is sound and your ideas are correct, you are still failing to see this from a new player or the lower mining level perspective, sorry. If a player with mining IV shows up to "help" me, a level 1 or 2 miner to mine... great! I get to maximize chucks per energy, hurray! Awesome! Fabulous... I get that. Only problem is that said miner isn't waiting for me to finish mining or to "help me" out, but is instead clearing all the rocks in 1/5 the time of my cycle and continuing on to other rocks in adjoining maps.  So, I'm left in an empty map with nothing to mine and earthshaker time running out, but hey! I got maximum chunks per energy on those 2 mining hits I got before the other person left me... lovely.

    The comments made in this thread are not making any reference to math, but rather the less than helpful actions of glitches with higher skill levels. Most of us higher levels don't even stop to think about what we're doing at times and no one wants to change their habits to conform to a lower level player, as was the case with my friend on one of those occasions (the miner e-mailed them some sparkly chunks after reading this thread, apologizing that they had no idea that they were being more harmful than helpful). None the less, it still needs to be addressed so that n00bs truly understand what's going on and feel less cheated by it.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The only thing that needs to be done is encouraging low-level miners to not waste their money on earthshakers and to mine somewhere other than the crowded deeps.  It's really that simple if you want to avoid sharing most of the time.
    Posted 15 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Cough cough. I would like to pipe up one more time. If you are a low-level miner, mine in places that aren't flooded with high-level miners: Groddle Heights and Alakol. We've all been low-level miners, and we all got through it. I'm not sure it makes sense to ask advanced miner to change their game play because the noobs can't keep up. 

    Personally -- I have all the mining skills and even I can't handle the hoovering of Ajaya Bliss. It's way more fun for me to go to less populated areas where I don't have to worry about all the rocks around me being eaten up by the masses.

    One other option: mine Beryl and Dullite. While you won't get the same currants-per-chunk, you'll still get jewels, you'll have way more rocks to mine, and you won't be pestered by the pro miners.
    Posted 15 months ago by emdot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "saying you get less "chunks per rock" isn't particularly relevant."

    Let's say there is one lovely rock left in the map. You look around, see nobody else is there, glug down your earthshaker, and start mining. Pop! Pop! In come some people, who rush over, and then finish this rock.

    Leaving you to load the *next page* while you are on your earthshaker.

    My page loads can take up to a full minute (more in some areas) on a new computer on fully adequate internet. So yes, chunks "per minute" actually does matter.

    Since nobody can single-handedly outmine someone with mining IV, imagine that a group of four people comes over and finishes the rock you have started, with you being incapable of getting more than two hits in the entire rock.

    And let's not forget: When you select the rock, you then choose "Mine!", which sounds a whole lot like it belongs to you. You can't blame people for believing what they've just been told by the game :P
    Posted 15 months ago by Biohazard Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Clever point, Biohazard. :) Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. :)
    Posted 15 months ago by emdot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "which is to say that the reason this bothers people is that there is some lizard brain feeling of *i own this! mine! back off!* when you encounter something before another person does, even if sharing that thing is ultimately in your very own self interest"

    Thank you so much for deciding what is best for MY self-interest.  I truly appreciate the fact that you, by "helping me" whether I want you to or not, are only looking out for me.  Oh, and thanks for determining that I'm wasting my time with Earthshakers.  Never mind the fact that I learned the skill that allows me to make them for myself.  If you say they are a waste of my time, then they certainly must be, because you are only trying to help me in every way possible.  And, lest I forget, thank you so much for "educating" me on "per mining action" because I had completely forgotten that that is the ONLY measure that actually matters in this game.  Silly me to think that I was mining that rock because I wanted the rock I would obtain from it.  And I do try to go to out of the way, unpopulated caverns, so as not to disturb the "serious" miners.  I just didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to mine in any of the caverns at all with the my lowly skill level.  My bad.  And finally, I really don't think that I "own" that rock.  I reread both of my previous posts, and I'm not sure where you got that idea. I have no problem with ONE person at approximately the same skill level mining the rock at the same time as me.  I do object to two or more people, or someone with a much greater skill level "helping" me.  But, I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to disagree with you.  My bad again.  Thank you so much for telling me what I'm thinking.

    Signed "Lizard Brain"

    p.s. "this will be much less of an issue once the game opens up for longer and a greater percentage of players will have maxed their mining skill." 

    Actually, I would think that the opposite would be true.  With a limited population, more players are likely to have maximized more of their skills.  When the game goes live, 'as Stoot says' "there will always be new players."
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Updated OP to include BioHazard's observation and a potential solution.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I vote for a T-shirt that alerts others to your mining preference. Then, if you join in on a solo-miner's rock, you're 100% butthead.

    [note: I at first was annoyed by the joining, then I saw everyone was doing it, so I stopped worrying about it and became one of the joiners]
    Posted 15 months ago by La_La Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This thread makes my heart ache for the devs. Even when they come up with a brilliant solution that fosters community play teamwork, people will still have a problem with it.

    It took me days and days,.nearly a week to learn mining IV, and I will be damned if I wasted all that time just to be told that I don't get any benefits from my full mining tree,.because players who dont have full mining think its unfair that I can mine faster.

    By the time this thread dies, you all could have full mining as well.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Leaving you to load the *next page* while you are on your earthshaker."

    the time spent loading the next page doesn't subtract from the buff!
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Laurali, I for one, think you should get benefits from learning mining IV.  I don't think anyone here has said otherwise.  You have previously been a proponent for "playing nice" and I think that is all people are asking for - however, since some people don't like to play nice, I think some limits are not asking too much. Why do people with level IV need to mine with someone who is level I?  Why do 3 or more people need to mine the same rock?  You said yourself that it took you nearly a week to learn it and not everyone has been playing as long as you.  For me, mining isn't my top priority, but I still need to do it in order to get materials.  So, other skills were more important to me earlier.  The fact that this keeps coming up is not in any way disparaging the developers, only indicating that it is still not where it needs to be.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Why do 3 or more people need to mine the same rock?"

    they don't need to, it's just quantifiably easier that way.

    btw i should correct myself regarding the buff length. i just did a test that shows the buff timer does indeed not go down while you are transferring streets.

    but the buff itself doesn't follow the same behavior. so if you have a three minute long buff and spend 30 seconds worth of time transferring streets, the buff will end at the 3 minute mark despite the bar reporting that you still have 30 seconds left. which appears to be a bug.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lovin, I am always supportive of accepting others play styles. That being said, if I have an earthshaker as well and I am mining,.and come across a rock someone else is mining, why should I waste my buff asking if that person is low level mining and if they mind sharing? It goes both ways you see, noobs wouldn't be the only ones losing their earthshakers. If you expect high level miners to find another rock they would be wasting their buff as well.

    Which goes back to my main point, if we comine the lower level does not benefit, but if the higher level player runs around in search of another rock then they do not benefit either. Both parties will lose no matter what, and I *should* be benefiting because I do have the higher skill.

    You have said above mining isn't your top priority priority, but mining had always been my top priority, so for how much time I spend mining for me to leave every rock untouched if someone else is there or take the time wasting my buff and often not getting an answer asking if theperson minds sharing,.I am losing a huge amount of what I use in game.

    Since its not a priority for you, then it would not matter as much if you lose some rock
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Goodness lovintnt!  Whatever gave you the impression you could play this game the way you want?   You have to play the way someone tells you!

    Never mind which style or mode of play makes you happy or satisfied, you are only here to play the way you are "supposed" to, the most mathematical and efficient way (as decided by others!)

    If you wish to have a little tiny rock to yourself occasionally you will be deemed "selfish" and "unco-operative"  Also - you have no right to use Earthshakes like that without permission, put them down at once!!

    There is only one right way to play Glitch and that is it.  No matter what you want out of it, or how you want to play,  you will play the right way or be a "lizard brain"!
    Posted 15 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • cassandria .. they way you put it, you almost make it sound that demands were being placed on lovintnt.

    coz i haven't heard anyone make any of the demands you list.

    if earthshakers are inefficient below certain mining levels, that's a fact - not a demand.

    indeed the only demand that people change their playstyle is from the people demanding that other people should back off "their" rock.

    i don't care what lovintnt does or does not do and make zero demands that she change her playstyle.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To be honest, it used to really bother me when a high level would come and wipe out the rock I was working on.  Now that I am high level, I just mine alone to be nice to others.  that's just me, though.
    Posted 15 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • First, I think striatic is factually correct, and lower level miners are rarely harmed by sharing, and usually they will benefit. 

    But I'll add ... on a social level, if you were a lower level player mining with me I would totally fix your stuff with advanced tinkering if you asked. Most players with Tinkering V would, it's not a big deal. For a lower level player, that would be a sweet bonus. For that matter, if someone told me I screwed up their earthshaker, I'd give them something equivalent from my bag. I'm not out to screw up anyone, sharing mining is just more efficient. 

    Still upset? Doesn't it take like a week to level from zero to Mining IV? (unless you are already highly leveled in other areas, and if so: boo hoo)

    Finally, personally I think harvesting/squeezing/nibbling is a more fun way for newbies to experience the world, especially with reduced gem drops. But that is definitely a subjective suggestion, do what you like. :)
    Posted 15 months ago by Lipt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Cassandria, who called anyone selfish or uncooperative?  Nobody is telling anybody else how to play.  Nobody is saying a right or wrong way, both sides are just backing up their point of view.

    I have donated countless items, earthshakers, food, repairs, etc to noobs and I if someone asks me to not mine their rock, I won't.  But I'm not gonna go out of my way to ensure every player at every rock I pass is ok with comining, that's completely impractical.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • :DDDD  Cassandria!   Thank you!  I think I'm finally catching on.

    Laurali, With your skill, you can go through the whole cavern in the time it takes me to mine one rock, or pretty darn close to it.  So, the "noobs" are paying a disproportionately high penalty, when the higher skill level players choose to "help" them mine before moving on to the next rock.  And actually, since I mine less, I would argue that it matters more to me if I lose some rock.  I need the rocks to crush and use with my alchemical skills, while if you are mining all the time, one rock is just a small percentage of what you get every day.

    "they don't need to, it's just quantifiably easier that way."

    "Quantifiably easier" for whom?  It's certainly not easier for me. 

    signed, "Lizard Brain"
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you read my original post, it clearly states that this is a matter of perception and not relative benefit in the long run. No one is asking anyone to change how they do things in this game (or should not be doing such) and all I am doing is bringing to light a VERY common conception (as evident by many people in this thread or in game) that the current mining conditions are not perceived as fair for lower level players.

    No one should have to change how they do things (unless they feel compelled to do such as a choice), but I am suggesting that beginning players (level 1 and 2 mining) at least be allowed to receive some amount of "feeling" that they achieved success for their mining actions.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Laurali, With your skill, you can go through the whole cavern in the time it takes me to mine one rock, or pretty darn close to it."

    That's not even remotely true, sorry, it's just not.

    " And actually, since I mine less, I would argue that it matters more to me if I lose some rock."

    Again I have to disagree!  Like I said above, I went through heights the other day and saw AT LEAST 15 sparkly rocks left completely untouched.  If you only need to mine a few rocks a day (because if you needed more it would be a priority for you), then go somewhere like heights where rocks are less common but often no competition for mining at all.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The point I am trying to make is this:

    It is the duty of the lower level miners to: 
    1) mine in areas with low traffic to avoid competition
    2) learn the mining tree if this is a frequent problem
    3) ask the person who is mining the rock to please stop 
     - most the time the person will stop, and if they don't well hey we all have to deal with jerks in some way or another in the game
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, it is true.  I have been on one rock, while a pair of miners zoomed through the rest of the rocks.  All of them.  Sorry it's true.  It just is.

    I do need to mine more than a few rocks in order to get the elements, still doesn't make it a priority for me.  I avoid Ajaya, even though it has the most of the rock I need and go to more remote areas without a bunch of other miners.  I have never been to any area other than Ajaya with "at least 15 sparkly rocks" so I really don't think that exists.  You seem to be suggesting that "noobs" don't belong in the mines.  If that's how you feel, so sorry.  No one has suggested that there also be areas where those with higher mining levels are not allowed.  I'll only speak for myself in saying that there is something about this that is not working well for many players and I would like to see a change.  Would that possibly inconvenience some of the higher level miners?  Possibly, but only to a very small degree.  And the inconvenience that currently exists for the lower level miners is much higher.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 1.  It is my "duty" to mine in areas with lower traffic?  Really????
    2.  I will learn the mining tree, but as you said yourself, it takes a long time.  And there will always be lower level miners.  Period.
    3.  By the time I ask the person to stop, the rock is gone and they've moved on to the next rock and the one after that.
    But hey, we all have to deal with jerks in some way or another.  Wow.  You're right, so we shouldn't bother looking for a solution.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am saying its your duty because you are the one who is getting screwed over.  If you want to continue getting screwed over, that's your choice!
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No, it's not your duty to go somewhere else.  The point is that if you want to mine your own rock, there's a place to do it.  High level miners go to the deeps because of the high density of rocks.  It just isn't reasonable to make a fuss about them "helping" when you have other perfectly good options.  If you are a sloooooooow Mining I miner, it doesn't really matter if there are 8 sparkly rocks on a street; it will take you forever to get through just one.  So you may as well go to a place without the competition.
    Posted 15 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, larky lion, I do.  And sometimes when I'm there, the "competition" comes to me. 

    Laurali, why does anyone need to get "screwed over?"  That is exactly the point of this thread, to come up with options so that people don't!
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But the point is that "Help Mine" WAS the option they came up with to help alleviate this problem.  It wasn't always like this, and so this is the solution, and I think its a pretty good one.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Laurali, think about the term "Help Mine" for a moment and think of it this way: By human nature, if someone starts mining something they view as dedicated to their own doing because they initiated the mining action first, shouldn't "help mine" help the originating miner? Sure, you may say it does because it gives additional units with less energy. However, the end result is far less satisfying to the person who ideologically thinks they are going to get 40-50 units (which would be the case if all parties involved were at the same or similar level).

    In the end, I'm not asking anyone to change their actions or to be scalded for having a higher level skill, but I do think it relevant that "help mine" help the originating (albeit only for +2 or more lower levels) miner under the assumption that they initiated an action on the rock first. Otherwise, at least change the wording of "mine" and "help mine" as it isn't for all cases.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You're seriously saying that they should "at least" change the word "mine"?
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
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