Topic

Stop the griefing in the Comunity Herb Gardens

Glitch Change Log

"So migrant gardeners can have time to admire their work, public plots'll be locked to the seed planter for 60 seconds after harvestin time."
13 days ago.

Thanks Tiny Speck, thank you indeed, this thread can now rest in peace.

****************************************************************************************************************** 


TOO LONG, DIDN´T READ:
 THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ABUSE, NOT PICKED HERBS. There are Glitchens using unfair tactics to grief the users of the Herb Gardens BEYOND the normal "free for everyone", like using gameshow wheels to block your view of your crops and camping with 2 or 3 thieve friends to block your vision or splanking you and then proceeding to group steal your crops. They are actively mugging people in the herb gardens, not just picking stuff for free. This needs to be solved

Regardless of the rules of the gardens, or rules of the game...what we do notice in the end is that the area does promote griefing.  People see people planting, and naturally, they know that if they get at the harvest before the other person does, it causes grief.  Minor grief, yes, but distress is distress.  Sure, no one is entitled to what they plant per se, and anyone can harvest whatever they want, but that does not prevent the core issue, it is causing strife altogether.

So instead of arguing about who is right, whether it be the planters or the griefers, perhaps it would make more sense for a solution that would benefit everyone to come about.  I.E., brainstorming.  Arguing back and forth is not doing anything for anyone.  So let's all try solve the problem, and perhaps TS will listen and implement what we come up with, if it is good enough and lets everyone be happy!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * 
REST OF THE OPENING POST EDITED: I have decided to remove from the front page my original Opening Post because the actual debate and conversation doesn´t fit anymore into it, and I feel that pressing the issue to move forward is more important than chew on something that isn´t relevant anymore, and is better than opening a new thread.

It was edited not to misguide anyone or trying to hide something, is just a tool to keep the debate at hand on track.

If you are still interested in reading it (is long, boring, filled angst and frustration, and irrelevant to the actual conversation) you can find it here: 

docs.google.com/document/d/...

Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • @Cosombra That's why we break the cycle by letting go?  And if they end up being the 'victims' next time, well, their turn has come.  And if they get upset about it I'd tell them exactly what I said here.  Don't worry. Be happy.  

    Plus what does playing computer games in general accomplish other than instant gratification?  
    Posted 12 months ago by CosmicBitFlip Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you for telling me/us that Mikah, it can give a new and more positive slant to the posts where I believe it easy to see implied insult to other people's intelligence. I know that if I wrote a few things in the manner you did that I would be deliberately putting the person down either subtley or in the face :)
    Posted 12 months ago by Anya Karenya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @CosmicBitFlip / @Casombra Amberrose:

    I have never seen a troll or griefer (or a bully) go away with the tactic of "letting go", they can easily find a new target.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Liliac: I will not lie to you, I like to use irony and sarcasm, but I have not mastered the subtle way to do so.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah but you're assuming they are generally mean people and full-time bullies with tons of insecurities.  And I am saying that MAY BE they aren't.  And may be they've already forgotten all about it and are back to feeding homeless children or whatever.  You know...  Anyways...  Got too involved in this when my main point was to not let you get too involved in this.  Do your thing:)
    Posted 12 months ago by CosmicBitFlip Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Splendora: you are correct. This isn't the busy/controversial thread that a staff member posted on. My mistake and I apologize for it.

    I'm done here. This is just another community herb garden rant. We're all flipping around in the bottom of the boat by the bait pail.
    Posted 12 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @CosmicBitFlip"... And may be they've already forgotten all about it and are back to feeding homeless children or whatever"

    You made me LOL, I like you.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Parrow Gnolle: Added to my buddy list, hope to see you soon around here if you got anything else to say.

    ... and don´t forget my OP: TOO LONG, DIDN´T READ: THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ABUSE, NOT PICKED HERBS.

    ... so, there is that.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mikah: you changed the OP after I posted, but you didn't really change anything I was addressing. Your OP still talks about people 'stealing' and 'mugging'. How can someone taking something that doesn't belong to you be 'mugging'? How is it 'unfair' if someone takes what is as much theirs as yours?

    You asked for constructive ideas to solve the issue of grief caused when people don't get the herbs they wanted. Here is my suggestion:

    In the community gardens have it so anyone who plants a seed or adds guano is then 'locked out' from harvesting from that plant.

    This would mean that no one would think of the herbs in the ground as 'belonging' to them any more, people would take what others planted and plant for others. The 'community gardens' could be about giving and creating a resource for everyone, and people who wanted private plots would move on to private gardens.

    I really think this idea would improve the friendliness and goodwill in the gardens no end.

    Honestly though, I'd rather people could learn to share without it having to be a game mechanic forcing them.
    Posted 12 months ago by Lukie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lukie: I didn´t want to modify the "spirit" of the OP, I just edited to make it more easy to read, it was generating way much noise with people citing multiple ill conceived prhases and pharagraphs I redacted when I was furiously mad and filled with rage. I think now is more manageable and enables a better understanding of the point. 

    And yes, I still left "mugging" and "stealing" because that is EXCACTLY what the dudes I met in the Gardens were doing.

    They were not picking herbs at random, not just passing by and happening to find something to harvest, not even the infuriating but still perversely funny "YOINK, I got the herb before you".

    No.

    They where systematically using tactics designed to block every other player in the Herb Gardens and maximizing their chance to be the only one picking herbs there.

    All the herbs. In all gardens. To them.

    That´s mugging, stealing, you name it.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you're going to keep repeating inaccuracies, I'll keep correcting them:

    a)  'systematically using tactics designed to block every other player"
    Can't be done using current game tools.  The wheels are simple to get around:  use your enter key and select the whole garden.  You can move from plot to plot using your arrow key.

    No one can block someone else from selecting an in-game object.  Even if it isn't visible on your screen, it can be selected.  Use the tools TS has provided and you will be able to harvest any plot you want.  

    b) 'mugging' and 'stealing'
    Can't be done, according to current game rules.  Staff at TS have repeatedly said that anyone can harvest.

    c) 'griefing'
    If someone is breaking the rules by greifing, the appropriate  solution is to use the Report Abuse tool to let staff know.  Staff will then decide whether or not they are actually breaking the rules.  Staff may decide that they are simply playing a way you don't want them to play.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn: Allways wellcomed to drop your 2 cents dude. Checked your computer yet? Seems to have solved half the problem you had with your posts.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lukie:  the first suggestion I've seen that would use a game mechanic to enforce the current game rules. Clever solution.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have the solution. Let's change the game mechanics so it locks the planter out of harvesting what they plant in the community gardens. Then the only people using it would be those that truly want to use it for its intended purpose, gifting other glitches with herbs. Generous people could still harvest the herbs that others have planted and the silly trolls who want to just piss people off by taking herbs that people think they have a right to would have to move on to bothering people in another way.

    Bam! Problem solved. You're welcome.
    Posted 12 months ago by SkyWaitress Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn: Now that we are closer to get a mutual understanding, let me expand on the issue of the "blocking", it has been (in my opinion) the part that you (on purpose or not) have not understanded yet.

    The problem with the gameshow wheel blocking the view of the plot is that is, well, blocking the view of the plot itself. With a wheel in front of the plot (or a couple as it happened to me) you are not able to tell from a visual standpoint when the herb is ready to harvest.

    So, having the clear image of 1 or 2 gameshow wheels blocking 2, maybe 4 patches of almost ready herbs, you OBVIOUSLY can pick them with the keyboard... but suddenly you don´t know WHAT herb is blooming first, you don´t have any visual clue to do so, you have to RANDOMLY hit the enter key on those invisible patches to have a chance harvesting some of the herbs.

    Now that we have a clear image of that situation, lets add to the ecuation one or two dudes that are doing exactly the same thing in the plots, and by chance these dudes are the ones that spawned the weels. So, in that situation, those dudes spawned both weels, preventing you to see the patches, and are working together to take the same herbs you want.

    Now that we have a clear image of the composed situation, you find yourself fighting a blind race to hit your keyboard like crazy to get a chance in a 2 against 1 race in a stressfull situation, transforming a peacefull activity in a frenzied, unfair competition.

    Let that one sink, chew on it, think about the situation, put yourself in the shoes of someone who is level 15 and is visiting the Herb Gardens for 2nd or 3rd time. That´s what I´m talking about.

    Stop, please stop trying to teach me how to use the keyboard to play. I ONLY USE THE KEYBOARD TO PLAY... see? I used full capslocks, I know my way around a keyboard.

    The problem is not the keyboard, the problem are the dudes that are using those tactics to keep all the herbs for themselves.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @SkyWaitress: o_O! Evil genius!
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • SkyWaitress: thats such an excellent suggestion, I'm going to go back in time 37 mins before you and suggest it first ;)
    Posted 12 months ago by Lukie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • SkyWaitress...my new genius hero. I Like that idea.
    Posted 12 months ago by Anya Karenya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There's nothing random about it:
    The game lets you move from plot to plot in a linear fashion

    The game itself tells you if a plot is ready to be harvested or not.
    There is NO need to see the plots to tell if they are ready to be harvested.
    There is NO need to see the plots to harvest them.

    If you are "RANDOMLY hit[ting]  the enter key on those invisible patches to have a chance harvesting some of the herbs." then you aren't using the tools that TS has provided to you to play the game.

    And if it is a a frenzied, unfair competition, then perhaps you should ponder the signs a bit longer.  People can only compete with you if you believe you have some right to what you are struggling over.  The game rules cannot be clearer:  the gardens are for ALL TO HARVEST.

    There are no modifiers on that statement.  Nothing that says the person who planted the seeds has a right to the harvest.  Nothing that says the person who watered the plot has a right to the harvest.  Nothing that says the person who applied guano has a right to the harvest.  Nothing that says the person who has waited by the plots has a right to the harvest.  

    The "dudes who are using these tactics" have just as much right to use their tactics as you do to use your tactics to harvest the herbs.  It' is clear that you strongly disagree with the rules of the game.  You strongly disagree with the signs that the devs put up in response to earlier player requests to clarify those rules.  

    But your disagreement with TS doesn't make what those people are doing wrong.  Jerks they may be.  But really they're beginning to look more like idiots who've found a new toy and are pulling and pushing all the buttons to see how many ways they can make it cry 'it's not FAIR".  It's only not fair if you're trying to play by a different set of rules than the ones this game uses.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is a difference between doing wrong and whether or not you are breaking the rules. They sometimes overlap but not always.

    It would be a bit like if the rules allowed for a player to delete any character they choose that is a lower level than them. Sure we lvl 60s could go around and delete the entire rest of the world and erase everyone else's hard work and be well within the rules, but that doesn't mean that its not an immoral and petty thing to do.
    Posted 12 months ago by Melting Sky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm not saying, at all, that these guys aren't jerks.  Or mean, or unkind, or ill-mannered, or any of a number of other kinds of rudeness. 

    But this is not a game that requires you to be kind, or well-mannered.  And I, for one, don't want an 'adult' game that enforces kindness as the sole game-play style.  We are not children being socialized to take our place in society.  We are adults playing an internet game with all kinds of folks that we might or might not want to befriend in real life. 
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn - I think the situation is this:  When a player visits a community garden, the chances of their finding anything available for harvest is low -- either because there are a lot of players visiting the gardens or because there are players camping in the gardens and systematically harvesting everything as soon as it matures. This leads some players to wait for herbs or crops to mature.

    So, let us suppose a player comes into the community gardens hoping to find some herbs. The player doesn't see any herbs ready for picking, but there are some plots that have been planted, watered and fertilized. So the player decides to wait for the herbs in these plots to mature.  While she is waiting, two other players come over and throw up a couple of game wheels which block the view of the plots.  Leaving the game wheels in place, they use their knowledge of keyboard operations to harvest the herbs while the player who was waiting is still figuring out what's going on and fumbling with their keyboard.  In local chat, the two players who brought up the wheels say "all may harvest, lol."  This same scenario is repeated as new players enter the community garden.

    The game mechanics permit this.  Perhaps it should be reported as griefing, but I don't think that precludes discussion here.  I agree that the terms Mikah has used imply an ownership that does not exist.  Since the herbs are public property, I wouldn't call it stealing or mugging, but neither would I call it community spirited.

    UPDATE:  I posted this before I saw the post immediately above.
    Posted 12 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Even though I also tend to enjoy conversations like this, I'm respectfully signing off as well--I think we're all pretty entrenched.

    We can agree to disagree, but I just want to be clear that what I disagree with isn't that the idea that griefing is bad. I completely agree that griefing is bad.

    I disagree with what I see as the misleadingly broad use of the word "griefing." You can say that the thread is about "abuse, not picking herbs" but in practice, it really does not feel that way--because I think that this thread is trying to characterize all behavior save for one specific type not just as "not nice" but as griefing, when there is a substantial difference between the two--and there is also substantial disagreement whether this behavior, which was definitely not nice in this situation, is not nice always or just when paired with verbal abuse. 

    Which is griefing.

    Whew, now to hit the jellisacs!
    Posted 12 months ago by Pomegrandy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn:  "I'm not saying, at all, that these guys aren't jerks.  Or mean, or unkind, or ill-mannered, or any of a number of other kinds of rudeness."

    At last! Dude! it took you so long to get to this point that I can´t ever believe how hard it was.

    "...don't want an 'adult' game that enforces kindness as the sole game-play style.  We are not children being socialized to take our place in society.  We are adults playing an internet game with all kinds of folks that we might or might not want to befriend in real life."

    This is one of the reasons I think you are so reluctant to understand my point. This game is filled with ppl of all ages, and as time goes by you are going to find more and more 14 / 17 year old players.

    Try to reason with a 15 year old troll trough the internet over anything and you will find a brick wall. 

    Or imagine that some 4chan / somethingawful dude falls in love with the game and then decides with their friends to form "The Guild Of the Spawning Gameshow Wheel"... I got goosebumps only thinking about the possibility. Imagine a horde of 15/16 year old dudes hellbent to the task of spawn gameshow wheels in entire streets just for the kick of it.

    You see?
     
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also this: "So, let us suppose a player comes into the community gardens hoping to find some herbs. The player doesn't see any herbs ready for picking, but there are some plots that have been planted, watered and fertilized. So the player decides to wait for the herbs in these plots to mature.  While she is waiting, two other players come over and throw up a couple of game wheels which block the view of the plots.  

    Leaving the game wheels in place, they use their knowledge of keyboard operations to harvest the herbs while the player who was waiting is still figuring out what's going on and fumbling with their keyboard.  In local chat, the two players who brought up the wheels say "all may harvest, lol."  This same scenario is repeated as new players enter the community garden.

    The game mechanics permit this.  Perhaps it should be reported as griefing, but I don't think that precludes discussion here.
    Thanks for the insight Splendora
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Pomegrandy: See you around!
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've said that before.  " There have always been jerks (even in alpha and beta). "

    But I still want the jerks to be able to play.  Using the current rules and game mechanics.

    Because TS has given us all tools to use the gardens in the way that TS intended.  Which wouldn't be any fun for the jerks.  

    We don't need protection, we need to use the tools we've been given.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If the gardens were to lock the planters from harvesting, it is entirely certain that the only people who would be ultimately benefiting from this setup are the people who would sweep in at each interval that a plant is ready, harvest, and run off to the AH. 

    In this case, we still have people squabbling and attempting griefing at harvesting, and as there are very few people who really care to merely plant for everyone's benefit, the gardens would be more empty than used.

    End result:  The gardens become useless.  Some of you can argue this would not happen, but greed is a higher motivation than kindness, you have to think of it this way, how many people would want to go completely out of their way to plant herbs for people who are motivated by greed?  A few would, but I can say that many would not, because that is how it always happens, both in games and in real life.

    Again, housing will fix this issue, as the demand will no longer outstrip the supply of the gardens.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So many bad assumptions. About 15.

    I leave it as an exercise for the reader to identify them and the errors in thinking that they lead to.

    The most dangerous one is
    housing will fix this issue, as the demand will no longer outstrip the supply of the gardens.
    Currently there are more than 800 empty homes in Andra
    More than 800 empty homes in Arrana
    About 150 in Groddle Meadow
    About 75 in Kalavan
    So far, demand has not outstripped supply, so that's apparently not even related to the problem.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have the solution. Let's change the game mechanics so it locks the planter out of harvesting what they plant in the community gardens. Then the only people using it would be those that truly want to use it for its intended purpose, gifting other glitches with herbs. Generous people could still harvest the herbs that others have planted and the silly trolls who want to just piss people off by taking herbs that people think they have a right to would have to move on to bothering people in another way.

    -- SkyWaitress

    That is sheer and utter genius. Seriously. That is actually the best solution I have ever seen with regards to the herb gardens. Plant for others, not for yourself.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mal'akh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lukie's suggestion from earlier this afternoon, which SkyWaitress repeated

    . Here is my suggestion:
    In the community gardens have it so anyone who plants a seed or adds guano is then 'locked out' from harvesting from that plant.

    This would mean that no one would think of the herbs in the ground as 'belonging' to them any more, people would take what others planted and plant for others. The 'community gardens' could be about giving and creating a resource for everyone, and people who wanted private plots would move on to private gardens.

    I really think this idea would improve the friendliness and goodwill in the gardens no end.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh! Lukie posted it first.

    *Tips Rook skull in Lukie's direction*

    I don't agree with locking out guano users however, so I am more inclined towards SkyWaitress' suggestion; just lock out the planters.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mal'akh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • another option would be to make them like the ancestral lands, you can only visit for short spells so you take your chances on what state the plots will be in when you're there.
    Posted 12 months ago by thewilk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Given the heated cries of "mine" based on nothing more than using personal resources on a community plot, I'm afraid that NOT locking out guano users will leave us with the "I guanoed it, it's mine, they're thieves" logic still running rampant.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The lock-out strategy is clever but won't work as advertised. You'll just end up with teams of planters and harvesters and the same snipers will be attracted.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • *double-post sorry*
    Posted 12 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • who says the purpose of the garden is to gift other players with herbs?

    i thought the purpose of the garden was a place where anyone could come and plant their herbs and have a reasonable chance of harvesting same OR leaving them for someone else.

    no, nobody owns those plots and nobody gets to monopolize them, but it would just be very lovely if you could walk in, take an available plot (it's easy to ask "are you using this plot?"), plant up a few herbs, guano them up, and harvest. i used to do it all the time, leaving behind me some planted plots free for anyone to take and some empty plots that could be used immediately.

    i did, however, have a desire to harvest the thing i'd come to plant, whatever it was, provided i'd double guanoed and stood right there. i took some of what was growing unattended, planted and harvested the thing i'd come about, and left some free things behind me.

    i'm given to understand that these days people tend to consider "whatever i can take from you because i'm quicker" to be the new definition of "free gift".

    there is already a mechanism for making gifts of herbs: you can walk up to people and give them stuff. you needn't other with gathering guano or planting or watching. it is a real stretch of imagination to think that the original purpose of the gardens was for people to make gifts whether they wished to or not, or to provide a place where resources could not be used.

    the next logical step of course is to make it so that anything you manufacture in the community machine rooms belong to whoever grabs it faster. is the purpose of THOSE community spaces to "gift" people with blocks and fuel cells, or is it to make a handy place where anybody may produce these things without having to own a set of machines?

    why is the purpose of the gardens not to provide people who do not own that kind of plot or even a home at all with a legitimate place to produce these items?

    do we really need rules to cover this?

    really?
    Posted 12 months ago by flask Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Pascale, as long as people think of what they plant/water/guano/watch over in the herb gardens as something they have a right to, the same snipers will be attracted.  If people try to use teams as a way to claim that right, the same snipers will have the same targets.

    The point being made  in these suggestions is (lock out, Ancestral Lands timer) is to entirely separate any of the actions of planting from any sense of entitlement over the harvests.  

    When people have no sense of entitlement, when they can plant and let go of the outcome, then the snipers won't have people who can have their "entitlement" chain jerked.  As long as people think of the plot/seeds/guano/time as giving them a priority, then the snipers can go around jerking chains and watching people get all upset.  

    If people just plant and leave, or guano and leave, or water and leave, then other Glitches can harvest and leave, without any of this drama.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ITT: people (not OP) who like to hear themselves speak entirely too much.  Now...

    "In the community gardens have it so anyone who plants a seed or adds guano is then 'locked out' from harvesting from that plant."

    Wonderful concept, but not in the context of community gardens, games in general,  or much else for that matter....other than the following:

    "In the community forums have it so anyone who posts in a thread is then "locked out" from posting in that thread again (or some other quota/flood mitigation technique)"

    Variety is the spice of life.  Quit sucking up all the air and let other people speak.  Dip the chip and end it (Seinfeld).

    This counts as my one post, so I don't get another.
    Posted 12 months ago by Joe Blow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Interesting joe Blow seeing you come in at this point spouting your, umm, Idea. Have You contributed a thought, idea or possible solution? Don't think so. Bye baby.
    Posted 12 months ago by Anya Karenya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Now that I get a couple hours to think about it, after the first shock of hearing (and liking a lot) the "lock out" idea from Lukie , I have found a fundamental flaw in that proposal that doesn´t solve the problem proposed in this thread. 

    Lets refresh and enumerate:

    1.- This thread is about people who use dirty tricks in order to be the ones that get the most quantity of herbs from every Herb Garden, pushing out other players and breaking the "all may harvest rule".

    2.- If you enforce a "lock out" that prevents that the one who planted the herb to harvest it, then you are affecting the one that is planting, not the one that later is going to come and try to get all the herbs. Those "thieves" are still free to roam the Herb Gardens and take whatever they want using their dirty tricks.

    Yes, thieves. They are stealing from everyone.

    So no, lock out is not an option.

    This trend that identifies the one who plants the herb as the culprit has to stop, it distracts and diverts the attention from the real bad guys here, the ones that can effectively take all if they want to.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When I read these threads...I have gone from interested to "I get all sides now, but Im just entertained at the ridiculous bickering"  to.. "omg.. seriously shut up or I'm gonna steal ALL herbs AND  kill EVERY tree out there" (not really) and back..

    every time I feel like I might have something thoughtful to add.. I end up just laughing and not bothering.

    But thanks.. I'm having fun reading
    Posted 12 months ago by SideBurns Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @SideBurns: It is very entertaining, in a wicked way.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Extreme wicked :D
    Posted 12 months ago by Anya Karenya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you, flask!  Your description is what I always thought the communities gardens were for... And my early experience in using them seemed to work pretty much that way.

    Seriously - "lock out" the Glitch who plants the seeds?  What happened to "All may plant, all may harvest"?
    Posted 12 months ago by LynnieR Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @LynnieR: That´s exactly what happened to me! From the start (joined at launch) I thougth that the Herb Gardens were a place to get your herbs on the go, just bring guano, wait 10/15 minutes, get your batch of herbs and go away leaving some behind. 

    The signs in every herb garden sounded to me like an open invitation to use everything, share everything, not an order to (as some are sure it is) to "plant something, shut up and go home, you whiny baby, move along, move along, nothing to see here"

    It was until I opened this very thread that I learned thanks to the posters (some lead me to the information in a kind and civil way, others not so much but meh) that it was not only a truly free for all kind of stuff, but some kind of charity work. I was astonished. You need to lurk the lore of Glitch to understand that, is not clear from the beginning, and not every player uses the forums or the wikis.

    But nonetheless, I have learned at last that what I tought was an individual problem (mine, my herbs, my stuff) is really the problem of every glitchen that wishes to use the Herb Gardens in the "all may harvest" way.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Perhaps these are Zen gardens instead of 'substitute' gardens (as flask describes)

    The planter plants because that is a good/right thing to do.
    But the outcome of that planting is not something they want to control.

    The nurturer waters/guanos because that is a good/right thing to do
    But the outcome of that nurturing is not a material item they want to posses

    The harvester harvests the crop because that is a good/right thing to do.
    The outcome of that harvesting may be an energy source or a currancy source.

    In the Zen model, no one would care what the harvester does with the harvest.

    But even some of the Zen-leaning players, control of this decision seems to be desired. They really don't want to give up control of how their initial planting is used.  Planting a seed, for them, is not a freely given gift, it is a gift with strings attached.  

     It's ok if the harvester eats the crop, but not ok if the harvester sells it.  Or it's ok if the harvester sells it as long as they don't get rich doing so.  

    At that point, the behaviors begin to look like the behaviors of someone who subscribes to the 'substitute' model.  

    The signs would appear to nudge game play toward the Zen model, while  including room for the 'substitute' model.  The two suggestions made so far (lock out the planter, lock in the planter) are the the game mechanics that would force only a single model to be available to users of the gardens.  

    Perhaps there is no model that encompasses both game play styles.  If not, given that there are several other ways that players can have a private plot that they control, I'd prefer the community gardens be more "Zen".
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I had so much more I kinda wanted to say, but I guess it comes down to this question:  For those of you who think that no one is entitled at all to what they plant, why is it you are so adamant about TS's decision?  Why would you want it to be that way?
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like to deal with reality, and find ways to have fun within the rules of the site I'm visiting.  

    I never have to worry about this issue in my own game play because TS has, thoughtfully, given me several different ways to get access to the herbs and seeds and plots I need. I can have fun within the constraints designed into this game. 
    .
    Some of the posters in this thread seem to think that they cannot have fun within these constraints.  They find reasons why the tools provided aren't acceptable to them.   For the people who refuse to use these tools, I'm trying to figure out why the reality of the game is so hard for them to accept.

    They seem to believe they are smarter, wiser, have more information, and ultimately know better than TS staff how to design the game.  I'm amazed at their statements that seem to be made with so much less information than the staff has.  They don't appear to have any more experience, funding, or business savvy than staff does, yet they are strident in their statements about the game being designed to only support their playing style.   

    Ultimately, TS takes the fall both financially and professionally if the decisions they make are "wrong".  Since they seem to be sticking with this decision, I'm assuming that they have financial and professional data that lead them to think this is a right decision.  

     Why am I adamant about TS's decision?
    Because I don't  know as much as they do.  I have no recordings of staff discussions, or copies of staff emails. I don't have access to the user data that they have.  Nor does any other person who has posted in this thread.  

    I really do not believe that I know better than they do how to run their business.  If you do, you can apply for a job with them here
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Did you ever stop to think that this is less a matter of some hidden user data and merely the idea of intent?  It is highly likely TS endorsed the herb decision because they want to, not because it is the best course of action.  Stoot did come from a background in philosophy, after all.

    Furthermore, this whole argument is, has been, and will continue to be a matter of opinions.  MMO's are not, nor have they ever been, stagnant beasts.  When a lot of people complain about a given game function, usually over the course of time, devs change the mechanic to remedy the issue.  Sometimes it is fixed, sometimes it opens up more issues, and sometimes it fails to do anything.  But there is change.

    Now in this game, there does not seem to be any majority opinion on the gardens.  However, by nature of the dissent, clearly the gardens are not working as intended.  If they were, no one would really be complaining beyond a few individuals.  Yet a lot of people are unhappy.  And a lot of people are unhappy that others are unhappy, and not just being happy, such as you, Windborn.  Who is right?  In essence, no one, not you, not me, is really right, but we all have opinions and feelings, and they do count for something.

    So to really figure anything out in general, it might help to get a basis of why TS wants the gardens to be as they are now.  They have been very silent about the matter, other than putting the signs up.  Perhaps they want dissent, and the gardens are supposed to be flawed, and causing issues.  Clearly, their response on the tree wars and emergent gameplay could support that.

    On another note, and this again is in direct response to you, Windborn, you made the statement that   For the people who refuse to use these tools, I'm trying to figure out why the reality of the game is so hard for them to accept. They seem to believe they are smarter, wiser, have more information, and ultimately know better than TS staff how to design the game. 
    Does it matter why some people do not accept the reality of the game? It is not about them believing they are better than the staff.  They have wants and opinions.  Why should that be wrong?  Certainly their wants and opinions are not directed towards wanting to harm anyone.  Some are motivated by greed, but most are motivated by just a simple desire for change so that griefers have less power.  Not all people who take herbs are griefers, but the very nature of the gardens allows it unless one plays for charity, which really will never benefit anyone, given the reality of greed.  So again, why be against people for the nature of their opinions?  Should all people conform to your idea of gameplay?
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink