Topic

"Deadpan Dike"

Maybe there are other slurs/jabs/etc. in the game and I just haven't noticed them?

But this really rubs me the wrong way. (I am avoiding creating other potential names that you could use if you're going to take up this line of naming.)

Posted 16 months ago by clare Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • "A dike or dyke in geology is a type of sheet intrusion referring to any geologic body that cuts discordantly acrossplanar wall rock structures, such as bedding or foliationmassive rock formations, like igneous/magmatic intrusions and salt diapirs."
    Posted 16 months ago by Saro Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, I'm aware that there are multiple meanings of the word dyke or dike. This name is a pun. Got it.

    A fag is also a cigarette. Gay can also mean happy. Shall we continue through ethnic slurs?
    Posted 16 months ago by clare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I confess I've walked down those streets many times now and never thought of anything other than 'earthworks'.
    Posted 16 months ago by dopiaza Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Surely where a double entendre isn't obvious, it stems from the mind of the person who takes it, not the person who makes it?

    Where I come from, few people would think twice about the having faggots in gravy for dinner. Would you object to having that as a dish in Glitch?
    Posted 16 months ago by Saro Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Rename it!

    [EDIT] nevermind, thought it was about a pig/chicken/butterfly...
    Posted 16 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Please don't let Glitch become too PC

    By the way, my name refers to Scatman Crothers, not the biological scat, but if you want to see it that way feel free...as Saro pointed out, some people take offense from what is in their own head when no offense is intended.

    [EDIT] This convo started with Clare being offended by the name of a street, and now it has kind of turned into whether things are PC or not PC, and for that I apologize, as I am the first one to bring up not letting Glitch become too PC.

    PC to me means that in the real world there has become a climate where the minority (whether it be sexual orientation, color, political party, gender norms, race, etc.) raises a hue and cry over being offended and so then, even though they are the minority, because they are vocal about it changes are made. (Rereading this I realize it is not a great sentence but best I can do right now.)

    What I propose to fix any intended street slurs is simply to include the ability to report the names of the alleged offensive streets and then allow the community to vote yea or nay on whether they want them renamed, simple majority rules.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Scatman Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hm. Dike is a word used in normal geography, too. It's quite common. The first thing that comes to mind when I hear 'dike' is the definition Saro quoted, not the homophobic slur.

    Unless 'deadpan dyke' is a common slur which I'm not aware of.  I think I need to ask, clare, would ANY dyke or dike in the Glitch names be acceptable in your opinion, or is it just the combination of these two words? 

    If you mean to say we shouldn't use the word 'dike' at all when referring to Glitch geography then I think that's overkill. But I'm not sure if that's what you mean.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cefeida Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 The Scatman

    Guess I'm the only one who thought this sounded like Dick Van Dyke?

    ETA ~
    Vragan Boost sounds like Viagra Boost
    Alakol is dyslexic alcohol
    Burnabee is Burnaby, a city bordering on Vancouver, BC
    Adanac is Canada backwards
    Posted 16 months ago by Echo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Uh oh, PC brigade have arrived in Glitch ._.

    People will get offended by anything and everything if they choose to be offended. 
    I honestly wonder if some people just enjoy being offended.  
    Posted 16 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, no, guys, please don't bring that dismissive attitude into the mix.  Even though in this case I disagree with clare, I really dislike this knee-jerk 'lol PC police' reaction to her concern. 

    If you also disagree with her, explain why, but don't roll your eyes and act superior just because you don't find it offensive. Many times we think something is totally okay just because it doesn't personally afflict us.

    And while some people might choose to be offended, that doesn't mean offensive things do not exist. Or that we all have the same understanding of what these things are.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cefeida Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not acting superior at all or rolling my eyes. I just don't like the political correctness at all.  
    If something's meant to be offensive be offended, if it's not, why take offence? 
    Posted 16 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 to Cefeida
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In the US, "fag" and "gay" have pretty much lost all meanings except as slurs.  That's not true of "dike".

    In fact, spelled 'dike' (as opposed to 'dyke'), it's still in pretty common use as a noun for non-sexual things. 

    Frankly, I'm pretty sensitive to language issues, and this one didn't even trigger my radar. 
    Posted 16 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Someone can still take offence even when something isn't meant to be offensive. Who are you to decide for others whether they're allowed to be offended over something? You don't have to agree, but when you say "people will get offended by anything and everything if they choose to be offended" you make it sound like they act offended on purpose. That's not how it works.
    Posted 16 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I didn't think of the slur when seeing this name until it was pointed out in this thread. To me, it just sounds like the name of something you would find in the Western U.S.. Some people need to just get their heads out of the gutter, I guess. (Yes, sometimes my head is in the gutter too so that applies to me as well--but at least it's not that easy for me to jump first to the worst possible conclusion).
    Posted 16 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's impossible to please all of the people all of the time, as people do get offended by all kinds of things. Sometimes the most innocent things can get people upset. Just depends on the person and how that person thinks. 
    Different people do get offended by different things, so changing everything to suit everyone would still most likely result in someone being unhappy.  I can't see a workable solution to keep everyone happy all of the time, can you?
    The spelling of Dike is not offensive, but if someone chooses to associate it with the spelling Dyke then they're going to be offended.  To me that is choice. 
    I could choose to get offended when someone says they're going to smoke a fag, but since I'm perfectly aware that they're not going outside to BBQ a gay person, but to have a cigarette, I just accept it as normal conversation and choose not to get offended. That's with the same spellings. This is different spellings so I can't really see why it would be offensive, but it clearly is to some people. Everyone's different I guess. 
    Posted 16 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just visited the street to take a look. I saw a distinct lack of any "sheet intrusion referring to any geologic body that cuts discordantly across wall rock structures".

    You can disagree with clare that it's offensive or needs to be changed, but explaining that it refers to a geographic object seems inaccurate since there is no such geographic object there.
    Posted 16 months ago by FrankenPaula Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Better rename all the streets if they have to be literally accurate descriptions....
    Posted 16 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Political Correctness" is just another way of saying Politeness in my book.  Of course not everyone wants to be polite.

    Although I agree we should be aware and alert to other peoples' sensibilities on this occasion I did not think of it as "dyke" which would have been suspect in my view.  In the UK a dike is commonly used for a boundary or earthwork, so it carries no connotations spelt like that.

    I don't actually think it is helpful to suggest that other people are too sensitive until you have been on the receiving end of something unpleasant.  Experiences of abuse and discrimination are common for some people whilst others are lucky enough not to suffer them.  This is bound to make some people more aware and sensitive.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree, "political correctness" is a bullshit way of saying "you're trying to get me to be accepting of individuals I'm prejudiced against and trampling all over my first amendment right to be an ass." Really. PC brigade, my ass.

    However, I have seen the name in the game before and I must also agree that, personally, as a gay man and advocate for the QUILTBAG communities, I PERSONALLY do not find this offensive. I had a social work professor use the word once to describe a hole in a wall and it was no big deal.

    Now, if it HAD used "dyke," of course I would find that offensive. But a dike, as others have pointed out, is a harmless natural formation of sorts.

    Though I can also understand that the way it is now might rub others the wrong way and I, nor anyone else, is ANYONE (except for an ass) to tell you that you're wrong for feeling that way.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I don't actually think it is helpful to suggest that other people are too sensitive until you have been on the receiving end of something unpleasant.  Experiences of abuse and discrimination are common for some people whilst others are lucky enough not to suffer them.  This is bound to make some people more aware and sensitive."

    Sorry, but why assume that I've not been on the receiving end of something unpleasant? I think most people have had to deal with unpleasantness in their lives. I certainly have.

    Someone read a word and associated it with another word that sounds the same but is spelled differently and now this is about sensitivity and awareness of abuse and discrimination? o_o   What on earth...

    I really should listen to myself and stay away from these forums lol  
    Posted 16 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "In the UK a dike is commonly used for a boundary or earthwork, so it carries no connotations spelt like that."

    Hmm, that's interesting. I'd always spell it 'dyke' - and my OED agrees that both spellings are acceptable for both uses of the word.

    The best known example I can think of, Offa's Dyke, is most definitely spelled with a 'y'.
    Posted 16 months ago by dopiaza Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So many replies, and nobody has mentioned 'Eglesgown Wanks' yet...?
    Posted 16 months ago by Cole Frehlen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As a queer woman, I'm not offended by dike in this instance--with an I it always refers to an architectural or geographic feature.

    Ebil, I don't think Cassandaria meant to imply you or anyone hadn't ever experienced "unpleasantness"--rather that for some people the word might be much more of a trigger than for others, so we shouldn't assume they are just "being the PC brigade" when posting on topics like this.
    Posted 16 months ago by Sheepy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Definitions other than the technical, geological one for the word "dike":

    dike
    noun /dīk/ 
    dikes, plural; dykes, plural
    1. A long wall or embankment built to prevent flooding from the sea
    2. A low wall or earthwork serving as a boundary or defense- Offa's Dike
    3. A causeway
    4. An intrusion of igneous rock cutting across existing strata
    5. A ditch or watercourse

    My initial thought at the word when I saw it was a ditch, as I've known ditches used for funneling water as dikes. What dopiaza and Cassandria mentions is another way I took the meaning. Because it's sort of the border of that area on one side, isn't it? (Can't remember exactly and can't log in to look.)
    Posted 16 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My two cents: Had I happened across this street in the game, I would likely have not thought anything of it. Having had it pointed out to me... I'm not offended, per se, but it does make me think twice. I find the word 'dyke' offensive coming from someone who I'm not absolutely sure means it harmlessly (which to me means if you're not a card-carrying member of the community or you don't regularly come over for dinner, you'd better not say it to me.) It's a little jarring to see it, even with the alternative spelling.

    I am 100% confident in saying that I don't think the alternative meaning crossed the mind of whoever named the street, and that is enough to make it a non-issue for me. However, in a game where many names are double entendres, I don't think it's out of line for players to notice and consider the implications of a name that could be interpreted by some as offensive. I think it's also compounded by the fact that it's preceded by a personifying adjective. If it was "Diggory Dike" I would be less troubled by it.
    Posted 16 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • First off, "ethnic slurs" refer to derogatory terms based upon someone's ethnicity, which is a racially-based term for culture. Although you could argue that homosexuality is a culture (which I will silently disagree with), it is not an ethnicity, and so it cannot be the basis of "ethnic slurs."

    Secondly, I've never heard of the derogatory term being spelled "dike," with an "i" instead of a "y." Perhaps I am mistaken, but that alone should quell the fears of anyone concerned that Tiny Speck is secretly trying to poke fun at homosexuals. In my high school physics class, we often had homework problems about dikes (I can't believe I remember that...). Should my classmates and I have protested the class because an alternative spelling of the word could be used as a derogatory term? No - that would have been ridiculous.

    I think that ridiculousness is the heart of the issue, though. In no way do I mean to insult clare or anyone else who is offended by the street's name. Not only do they have a right to their opinion, but I commend people who have the integrity to call out discrimination when they see it. That said, it says a lot about our culture if we look at the word "dike" and immediately assume it's a jab at lesbians. Above, clare said, "A fag is also a cigarette. Gay can also mean happy." It's interesting that people think of those terms in such a manner, when the actual meanings of all the "controversial" terms mentioned here have nothing to do with homosexuality. I personally believe that when we look at these terms and assume the worst, we are actually strengthening their use as discriminatory slurs. The power of words doesn't come from the words themselves - we give it to them. 

    I don't think this is an issue about being "politically correct." I think this is more of a debate about what kind of power we're ascribing to the term "dike." I don't think the use of slang in a discriminatory manner is going to end if we act politically correct in public. We have to stop giving it the negative charge. Consider the term "queer" - it was embraced by the gay community and (at least in San Francisco) it no longer is given the essence of hate that it once had. We give words power & so we can take it away.

    TL, DR: Discrimination is bad, but as members of society, we control how words are interpreted, and consequently, how discrimination survives.
    Posted 16 months ago by Gitchy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have never, ever heard of the word "dike" being used in an offensive manner. Maybe that's just because of my location, though. Is it a slur used in europe or something?
    Posted 16 months ago by Johnny Triangles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • First of all, is this a slur?  Surely, contrary to what some have written above, gay is not a slur, as it is the most common term used to describe male homosexuals and, to the best of my knowledge, is the word such persons most commonly use to refer to themselves.  Dyke is somewhat less clear, as it almost certainly was originally a slur.  However, it is more and more commonly used by lesbians themselves and straights close to them as a positive statement of orientation.

    Then, of course, the word in question is actually dike, not dyke.  A homophone certainly, but still an entirely different word.  I would agree with most above writers that objection to this name in Glitch is an overly PC response.  I think it's clear that this usage here is not a slur/jab as Clare would suggest, but rather a perfectly reasonable geographical name.  (Regardless of whether there is actually a dike on the street.)

    The acid test is what lesbians think of this usage in Glitch.  Are there any out lesbian Glitchers who care to comment on how this name affects them?  (Sheepy has already voted "Not offensive.")
    Posted 16 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just assumed that it was a take on a name out of an old Western, like "Deadman's Dike" (which actually sounds even more creepy, if you think about it).  But  I also always thought that dyke as in lesbian was spelled with a "y"
    Posted 16 months ago by Tradescantia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well said, Glitchy.
    Posted 16 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well said, Glitchy.

    [Edit: Snap!]
    Posted 16 months ago by dopiaza Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm queer and as I said above, unless you're extremely close to me, or a member of the QUILTBAG community (and I am aware of that) then I'm going to be offended if someone uses the word "dyke" within earshot. My girlfriend can call me a dyke all she likes. But my coworker? That would be a problem for me.

    And for all of the questions regarding spelling: yes, the slur is generally spelled "dyke." However, if you've attended public high school (and I suspect private schools as well) then you're aware that in practice, it gets spelled lots of different ways. It's just as offensive every time. If there was a street called "Phurious Phag" it would bother me just as much.

    Edit to say: Glitchy, I get your point, but with all due respect it's the members of the targeted community who get to say whether or not a word is offensive/a slur. I would never try to tell the African-American community that they'd reclaimed the n-word and they shouldn't be bothered if I use it, because I don't have the right to say that.
    Posted 16 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 to Tradescantia, that's exactly what I thought too, on every point.
    Posted 16 months ago by Arii Subscriber! | Permalink
  • But, Tally, big difference: phag is not a topographical word. It's just a slur, nothing more.  Dike, on the other hand, is like Cliff or Alley or Lane or Ditch. It's used in the real world to describe places, which is why I don't think it is inappropriate to use it in game to describe a place also. The context is clearly innocent.

    Thanks for making the point about the personifying adjective, though, I can see how that could make it sound a bit off. So maybe the name wasn't intended to be a pun at all, but it just comes off as one? Because I don't think 'dyke' is a safe word to make puns on in public, among people you don't know, so it would surprise me if it were intentional.

    On the subject of people interpreting words how they want to- yes, we have the power to grant words meaning, but it is not by ignoring their resonance that we can do so. And Tally is right- it's up to those who have been abused by the words to change them. It's their first right. The question is, who are 'they'? I don't think I should have to denounce my sexual and gender identity before I get a say in the matter, but I also know from first-hand experience that when we are not members of a targeted group, we can easily overlook their problems. 

    Which is why I am glad when discussions like this happen, and absolutely delighted when they are kept civil. :)
    Posted 16 months ago by Cefeida Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I never once tied the meaning of this street to anything negative. I always assumed it was the actual meaning of the word dike. I really don't see how this is offensive..
    Posted 16 months ago by Muncey Mango Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's exciting to have people respond to me, but for the record, my name has no "L" in it :-/

    Tally, I agree that the voice of the "targeted community" plays an important role in how a word is interpreted. But the sad truth is that, because they are "targeted," members actually have less of a say in how society uses discriminatory terms, unless the community wholeheartedly embraces them. (Case in point, "queer," which is still controversial in some places, as I understand it.) Slurs exist to hurt people and the people who are targeted by them cannot erase the ill will of the people who use them - that's the ugly truth. The connotation of a word is determined by society at large - not by the "targeted community" or the people who use it.

    I know this is a controversial thing to say, but I also don't believe that being homosexual necessarily gives anyone more of a right to voice their opinion than being heterosexual. That's discrimination. 

    I was going to say that the n-bomb is a very different situation, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it's very similar to the word "queer" - accepted as a non-derogatory term in some places, but considered wildly inappropriate in others. Where I grew up, the n-bomb had lost all meaning - it's use was not limited to black people or racially-confused white kids. At home, I can use it with friends of all races and no one gets offended. But I once used it while visiting my family in Chicago and my aunt pulled me aside. She'd spent a lot of time visiting us in California and she knew what it was like. "Consider your audience," she told me. "To them, you're using a charged word and they're going to be offended." The point of my story is that you have the right to say whatever you want, but you can't control how people interpret it. That's why your intentions are so important. They give your words power & the power given by the masses determines the character of a word.
    Posted 16 months ago by Gitchy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, just wanted to point out that just because different words have different meanings, that doesn't necessarily make them okay to throw about willy nilly. For instance, would you go around wearing a swastika because it actually means good luck? Would you go around using the word "niggardly" because it means being lazy?

    ETA: Also, the context of use truly matters. Granted, queer isn't offensive in certain circumstances, but if a guy throws a brick at my head and calls me "QUEER!," then that is ADDED offense to the actual physical assault. Certain courts would be able to change the status of the assault to a hate crime simply because he said that. Yes, society gives words power, but you also have to recognize that words give power to society, at times, as well.

    You can't say that if Obama were to all of a sudden start talking about "the faggots" this and "the faggots" that that he wouldn't gain some ground with more conservative groups, and that this wouldn't have any effect of society or politics.

    ETA: Oh, I'm sorry, "niggardly" doesn't mean lazy. It means things that are essentially worse. Good on you for using it, though! [/sarcasm]
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, I did some research on the term "fag" and I thought the Dictionary.com page was really interesting. I had no idea that it comes from the Middle English word fagge, which means a loose thread in a cloth, and that in Britain, fag is (or was) used as a verb to describe pupils doing required menial chores and as a noun to describe a young pupil being hazed by an older pupil with menial tasks. Just in case anyone's curious.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fag
    Posted 16 months ago by Gitchy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Gitchy -- it's good to know, but doesn't make it any more okay to use as a pejorative.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 'my name has no "L" in it'

    Apologies. I can't believe I've been misreading it all this time.
    Posted 16 months ago by dopiaza Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Would you go around using the word "niggardly" because it means being lazy?"

    Niggardly doesn't mean lazy, it means stingy, miserly, meagre or begrudging, and yes, I use it.
    Posted 16 months ago by dopiaza Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dopiaza, it's ok. Thanks for apologizing - very classy :)

    That's a really good point Cerulean. I remember in 1999 when an aide to the mayor of Washington D.C. used the term niggardly to describe the budget (it means stingy) and after receiving a lot of flack for it, he resigned. I thought that what Julian Bond, who was then chairman of the NAACP, said was brilliant. "You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people's lack of understanding", he said. "David Howard should not have quit. Mayor Williams should bring him back — and order dictionaries issued to all staff who need them (Copied and pasted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22)
    Posted 16 months ago by Gitchy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Okay, excuse my misrepresntation of the word, but that doesn't change the fact that the word is used primarily in pejorative fashion and is the word from which "nigger" is supposedly derived from. My argument isn't any less valid as it stands, because many people did fully understand the meaning of the word. It's just like Imus using the term "nappy-headed hos." Just because someone has nappy hair, and someone calls them out on it, doesn't mean it's anything racist, right? Depends. The implication seems to be clear in these situations.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Flame wars... :(
    Posted 16 months ago by IxÆoN Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "is the word from which "nigger" is supposedly derived from"

    It is not. The derivations are very different.
    Posted 16 months ago by dopiaza Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wait, I originally made the point that I didn't find "dike" offensive (when I say originally, I meant in my first post in this thread). The latter argument I made about different words having different meanings is meant to apply in other situations, because people have asserted that just because words (and symbols) have different meanings they should be okay to use.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The beginning of the OED's etymology: 

    Probably an alteration of neger n., after classical Latin niger (see niger n.1); compare earlier Nigro n., Nigrite n.1 Compare post-classical Latin niger black person (1582 in a Spanish colonial source). Compare also Swedish †niger (1758), probably a borrowing from English (although this may perhaps represent a borrowing of neger n.).Some early examples of the form niger (especially in learned use) may perhaps represent a direct reborrowing of classical Latin niger black (see niger n.1).
    Posted 16 months ago by jasbo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Actually, niggardly is spelled with an "A" not an "E" and is of Scandinavian origin.  The racist term derives from the Spanish/Portuguese word "negro," the root of which is the Latin term for black, "niger." The words are 100% unrelated in regards to etymology.
    Posted 16 months ago by Gitchy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yay jasbo - etymology is the best! ^_^
    Posted 16 months ago by Gitchy Subscriber! | Permalink
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