Topic

Mining Etiquette (again)

I would like to re-open the discussion on mining etiquette.

I am a relative newbie and I was confused about the glitches who swoop quickly through the mines, "helping" others finish off rocks. At first I thought it was nice to see so many helpers. But then I noticed that, unlike other miners, the "helpers" tended to be surly, never chatting, trading, or giving kindness. Also, the helpers hate it if you trail them and attempt to "help" them!  I have concluded that "helping" like this is actually an act of rudeness.

I read through the old closed discussions and it seems that most people feel the same way.

I understand that any system to prevent "helping" would be cumbersome.

My question is: Why is this behavior still called "helping"? I feel like calling it that and having the system report mining progress as though it were a good thing just gives jerks permission to act like jerks.

There are a lot of cool things about Glitch but what makes this game really unique is that it does not encourage or reward people for preying on each other. Except in the case of "helping" someone mine.

It is sad to see the fast, high level "helpers" clean out an area before the others can even finish one rock.

I realize that, especially with the new house stuff coming out and all, there are a lot of more pressing concerns to be addressed now. I just hope that the "helping" feature could be renamed to something more accurate before re-launch.

I also hope that you will take my comments as I intend them, as questions and suggestions, not as criticism and that you will correct me if I am mistaken. Thank you.

Posted 9 months ago by Miss Bobbit Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I think that pretty much every different perspective has been spoken from here, so I won't go back through those points. I just wanted to add that I don't usually chat while mining because I usually leave mining for when I have a limited amount of attention to pay to Glitch - when I have a class or tutorial video open on the other monitor or when the baby is taking a lap nap and I'm only working with about half of a hand. Other people might not be as chatty for other reasons, say limited language skills. I try to RK miners or throw an Earthshaker their way, but I'm often too slow.

    I still don't get why antisocial people want to play a social game though.
    Posted 9 months ago by Eva Mae Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lest any of my past postings be misunderstood:

    I have said that I can often get more rock in less time by mining outside an area like Ajaya Bliss, where group mining is the norm.  That doesn't mean I prefer mining solo. I prefer to share, so if you see me mining, please feel free to join me on a rock.

    I also prefer that you simply join me rather than asking if I want help.  I'm sometimes mining while not looking at my screen, and I often don't notice things in the chat window. Also, if I happen to be using an earthshaker, I will lose a lot of the buff if I stop mining in order to switch to the chat window and type in a response.

    If there are two rocks and two miners of the same level, both will get more if they mine the two rocks together rather than each mining one rock solo. If one miner is higher level than the other, however, the higher level miner will end up with more and the lower level miner will end up with less. That's the math.

    If I join a lower-level miner on a rock, I try to give them extra rock so that they get at least the same as they would if we were both my level. This allows the lower-level miner to get more rock with less time/energy than they would otherwise. Occasionally the other miner runs away before I have a chance to do this, but I do try.

    So if there are multiple rocks in a room, you will get more rock if you mine with me (and don't run away too fast) rather than mining solo -- and in most cases, I will get more rock too.  If there's just one rock in the room, I will get less if you join me, but I hope you will join me rather than feeling like you have to move on and hunt for another rock.
    Posted 9 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Djabrill said, "As far as Pollokoo and Callopee being "very co-op", the only evidence I've seen of that in recent times has been 20-player herds clear-cutting everything in their paths. It's all well and good to talk about co-op mining when you're not a hapless solo or one of a pair in the path of a huge swarm of locusts... imagine how rude that looks from the outside."  

    Well, I participate in glitch-train-mining fairly often, but never in a 20-player herd; those are actually really hard to coordinate without people falling off.  But 3-6 player trains are manageable, and it's true, we do sometimes feel like locusts.  We also do think about how it looks from the outside, and try to be considerate by not attacking a rock that someone else is already mining.  We also try to give RK or other surprises to glitchen who mine alongside of us.  But I don't think it's rude to mine this way, and I don't think it's rude to deplete the rocks in a room and then move on to the next one, just because you're doing it faster than in other situations.  One reason for it is that we know exactly where all the nodes we are looking for lie, and we go straight to them.  

    One benefit we do get out of train mining is that when you're not leading the train,  we can multi-task during that "searching for the next rock" phase by meditating or doing other things.    We can also multi-task out of the game window, so we can spend more time chatting or watching that tv show or reading that webpage in another window as we are dragged from rock to rock. 
    Posted 9 months ago by Scarlett Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am new (level 7) and I am also confused about helping.

    I also noticed the thing that Bobit called "swooping" which I think means where glitches do not explore the mines but seem to use the map dots to go directly from one miner to another.

    I am not explaining this very well! :(  I am trying to describe how they do not move through the mines in a normal manner but use the "here is a glitch" dots in the map at the top right to locate people who are already mining.

    So it is not like they are mining and they come across another miner and join in to help. It is that they are using map dots to find miners and using these other miners to find rock for them. I think this is different from just coming upon another miner and sharing the rock. I think this puts helping in a different light.

    I didn't notice this until I started watching the map. You can't see it from watching the main screen but it is obvious (and kind of funny) if you watch the dots on the maps.

    I don't know what the earthshaker is but if it has a time limit I can see why it would encourage people to use the map dots to quickly zero in on mineable rocks. Using the map dots would be an effective strategy to exploit the rock-finding work of other glitches and make the most of earthshaker.

    Also, it seems to me that if helping was actually helpful to the original miner then you would see people asking for help. Right? I have never seen such a thing. Has anyone ever come into a mine and seen miners calling out to strangers: Hey, I have a rock, someone please come help me mine it? People ask for help with other things when they want help. I think that no one asks for help when they are mining because it is not really help at all.

    As I said, I am level 7 and this is how I feel now. Maybe I will have a different perspective when I am  level 57.
    Posted 9 months ago by Smashin Grab Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That is your opinion Splendora, but whereas you prefer that people just join you without asking, I would prefer the courtesy of being asked. Especially if there is another of the same rock in the room. Either go to the other rock, or ask me if I want help, please.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't think you can assume things about the other players just because they aren't participating in the chat rooms. As far as I'm concerned the chat is an optional feature, not a requirement. I like playing glitch, but I'm rarely interested in chatting to strangers. I'm not going to initiate a chat conversation everytime I want to do a normal in-game action.

    This doesn't make me 'rude' that just means I'm not interested in chatting. What about players who don't speak the same language as you? Are they rude for not talking to you?

    Oh, and I know where every single darn sparkly is in the areas I mine, so yeah I'll go straight to the rock rather than wandering round 'exploring'.
    Posted 9 months ago by Lukie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When I use an earthshaker, I certainly don't use map dots to find rocks.  When I use an earthshaker, I know in advance exactly what rocks I'm going to mine.  I make sure there are enough rocks so that even if I'm joined by several other miners, I'll be able to keep my pick going while I have the earthshaker buff.

    Like many experienced miners, I know where the desirable rocks are. I don't need to use map dots to find them. However, if I enter a room that has several desirable rocks in it and I see another miner there, here's my choice:  (A) I can join them and then we can mine the other rocks in the room together, each getting more than we would if we mined the rocks solo, or (B) I can mine solo and clear away several of the desirable rocks before a low-level miner is finished with their one rock.
    Posted 9 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What about (C) you can mine solo, and the other person there, also with Mining IV, can mine solo and you both clear the desirable rocks and no one is forced to receive "help" that they do not want?
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's been a while since I saw one of these discussions.  Fortunately, everyone has there own opinion.  When I used to mine, I mined solo but never veered away from rocks that already had miners.  I had my route, went from rock to rock, and mined.  If the rock was empty, I mined solo, and if it wasn't, I group mined.  I hate to think people might have thought I was a jerk just because I started mining the same rock they were using, or because I didn't say much, if anything.  I didn't do it out of malice, it was just the next rock on the route.

    This is a multiplayer game.  Others are going to join you sometimes when you are mining a rock.  Unless they are specifically being rude in chat or griefing in some other way, assume the best, rather than the worst.
    Posted 9 months ago by Shootsin Latters Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mining is grinding.  People who don't chat aren't necessarily "surly", just busy mining.

    I also don't avoid rocks other people are mining or seek them out.  I prefer the energy efficiency of cooperative mining, but will never follow a stranger off the the street because it seems kind of stalker-like.
    Posted 9 months ago by Janitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I still don't get why antisocial people want to play a social game though."

    Because they want to? Just because someone does not want to share or chat at a particular moment (or, ever if that's your thing) doesn't mean they shouldn't play this game.  Excuse them for not fun having the correct type of fun.

    There's tons of other players in the game that love to share and chat or whatever. I know I use online games to escape my annoying and sometimes depressing real life. Sometimes I just want to play or explore for  while and sometimes I want to chat people's ears (or, eyes?) off. And not participating in the social side of the game doesn't hurt any one else, so why the big deal?

    (and no Eva Mae, this isn't directed at you, but I've read this before and this is just when I actual responded. I apologize if I sound like a smart-behind, but you know how text is and I'm not the best at wordsmithing, either.)
    Posted 9 months ago by EzBreezy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Scarlett - Oh yeah, I've seen your groups in the mines (mined with 'em too :) but here recently I've been seeing (literally) as many as 18 names scroll down the left hand side of my screen at once. That's more what I'm talking about; small groups are whatevs, but the huge ones can be nuisances.
    Posted 9 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Djabril , me too, In fact I've not been in the mines for a couple of weeks because of it, the last time I was there it wasn't just the odd one, but a group who bypassed all the lower level miners in the room and zeroed in on me, dogging me across 3 rooms before I gave up and tp'd out because I was only getting one strike at a rock before I ended up being last in the line with hardly anything to show for it
    Posted 9 months ago by Myrtle Goodbody Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mining is just rock-gathering to me, but I need the rocks to grind into elements or smelt into ingots. So I tend to mine when I'm watching TV with the family, and I probably miss stuff going on in the chat window sometimes. That said, I try to pay enough attention that I can RK a fellow miner sharing a rock. I'm not trying to be surly, I'm just multitasking :)

    It's different in the locked rooms. I go there with the expectation of being sociable. Otherwise, I'm just gathering ore to grind. 
    Posted 9 months ago by Snowpea Subscriber! | Permalink
  • again...public resource. I'm not going to ask someones permission to mine on a rock that isn't theirs. It's for the public.

    Remember the herb fiasco? TinySpeck fixed that and made it clear about how they handle public resources. All may plant All may harvest. Granted they tweeked it so that the original planter has time to get the herb they planted but I dont see how that could work with mining. It's not something anyone put money or time into...so, for me, it's open season on rocks.
    Posted 9 months ago by Hybie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's fine, but is it really necessary to "help" me mine a rock when there is another, identical one right next to it? 
    Posted 9 months ago by Shallawalla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Shallawalla - if you both share both of the rocks, you both get more ore per energy expended.
    Posted 9 months ago by Aurora Dellaterra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I understand the mechanics Aurora.  I still prefer to mine alone.  As do others. 
    Posted 9 months ago by Shallawalla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Shawalla, then move on to another rock. If someone does that to me I generally leave them alone and don't mine with them. But how else are you supposed to know who likes to share the mining and save energy, those who like to mine alone, or those, like myself, who don't care either way?
    Posted 9 months ago by IrenicRhonda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You will never, ever, ever, ever find me asking permission to mine a rock on a public street.  I don't care who finds it rude -- I find the assumption that "firsties" somehow reserves the public resource and gives you the right to get angry at me more rude.  

    Not only will I not ask, but if you find yourself on my regular circuit, you might find me following you from rock to rock, even if you leave each rock as I arrive.  You might find it annoying, but you know what: I won't find it to be anything.  The world doesn't revolve around you, and neither does Ur.  I'm not following you -- I'm going to the next convenient rock.  

    Seriously, how self-obsessed does someone need to be to assume I'm following them when clearly we are both just interested in the same resource?
    Posted 9 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I usually prefer to mine alone, and I only start helping people if the rock is in it's 'full' stage. It does frustrate me when people come along when I have that last two strikes to do, and they make the rock go away faster.
    I only like 'helping' in places like Ajaya Bliss, where you actually benefit from having help, cuz when you get like 10 people on the same rock, you get a LOT of extra. But when it's just one person, that one extra chunk isn't worth it for me compared to the 12-13 loss. So yeah, I just like to mine alone, and I don't like the people who zoom around 2 locations, and have both of them wiped clean all the time. I try to make a tour around, and if someone who is doing the same thing is always one room ahead of me, I turn around and go the other way.
    Just my take on it....
    Happy mining everyone! Don't let the politics of it get your too down!
    Posted 9 months ago by RJStormRider Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And for the level 7, you should actually appreciate when someone comes to help.  Energy is a lot more limiting at low level, so it would be better for you if the vet with Mining IV came to the rock you are at.  You will get more rock per energy expended.  If they go to another rock on the same street, you may get to finish the one you started on, but the rest of the street will be cleared, you will get no bonus, and you will have spent more energy yet now need to travel further to find the next rock.  
    Posted 9 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't read every post in here, but this one stuck out as my mining ethic:

    So people who rush up to help you are not trying to hog the rock, but rather trying to help you gain more for your mining energy, as well as reap more ore for themselves. It's not a selfish thing, trust me.  ;)

    That's how it is for me.  I enjoy the fact that doing things together gives EVERYONE benefits, and I think it's great that the devs made it so that we can all harvest the same tree at the same time.  It was irritation-producing in FS when someone swooped to harvest a tree before you could get there!

    Add me in to those who don't talk when they're mining... It takes time away from when I could be clicking on the button to mine! :p  I wait for others to arrive before starting, I bestow when I remember to, and I try not to do group-mining when I'm lagging badly.

    It's personal ethics, but in the end, what it all comes down to is that regardless of whether someone has being rude in mind when they help you mine a rock, it's still benefiting BOTH parties!
    Posted 9 months ago by Genkicoll Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Gee Saucelah, when you put it that way...Clearly I am doing it all wrong!!!  Clearly I have to play the way YOU want me to play.  Clearly my preferences are NOTHING compared to your wonderful self!  You are absolutely correct, I SHOULD bend over and thank you for kicking me!  I have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to just want to mine on my own, whether or not it gives me more or less ore!  I am so FUCKING unappreciative!  Thank you so much for being such an ABSOLUTELY giving, generous and glitchy player!  You are awesome!  I realize now that the way YOU want to play is the ONLY POSSIBLE way to successfully play this game.  Thank you.  Thank you so much!
    Posted 9 months ago by Shallawalla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Having a bad day, Shalla?  Not really sure what there was in Sauce's post that could be upsetting - it seems like a logical observation to me, not like s/he is trying to tell you how to play. *shrugs*  I'm pretty new around here, so I'll just go back to observing for now :)
    Posted 9 months ago by Genkicoll Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No, my day is fine.  Did you read both of his or her posts?
    Posted 9 months ago by Shallawalla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No, just the most recent one. 

    *scrolls back to look*

    Ah, now I see.  Yep, I can see where that might rub one the wrong way ;)  I knew I must have missed something, and I was right.  OK, off with me, now.

    EDIT: And Shalla, I'll try to remember that you prefer to mine alone, but if I forget (and surely I will), just remind me, and I'll be happy to leave you to your rock(s)~ ^__^
    Posted 9 months ago by Genkicoll Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Do I care how you play?  No.  But what makes you think that you have the right to be angry when I play my way, to make it a personal issue when it has nothing to do with you personally?  What makes you think it's ok for you to find play styles rude but that it's not ok when it's turned on its head, when someone finds your play style rude?  

    Yeah, never ever ever going to care if you like to mine alone or not.  Rocks don't belong to anyone.  It has absolutely nothing to do with you, and if you actually decide it does, I will assume you are self-obsessed.

    ETA: You missed the entire point of my post in order to take offense.  It's a public resource.  There's no reason for me to ask permission to use a public resource.  As others have said, if you like to mine alone, good for you.  Go elsewhere and mine alone.  But I'm not going to stop doing things the way I do them, the way the game allows me to do them, simply because you subjectively perceive that as rude.  

    I find your reaction rather telling.  If you find it rude, it's rude.  If others find what you are doing rude, they are jerks who want to control your play style.  
    Posted 9 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • These are my 2 quotes on the subject: 

    "That's fine, but is it really necessary to "help" me mine a rock when there is another, identical one right next to it?"

    "I understand the mechanics Aurora.  I still prefer to mine alone.  As do others"

    When and where did I say it was rude?  You are the only one who is using the term 'rude.'  I said nothing about you changing anything about how you play, except to ask that when there is an identical rock next to the one I'm mining, why not choose it instead of the one I'm on.

    And to that you posted:  www.glitch.com/forum/genera... and
    www.glitch.com/forum/genera...

    If you weren't so pompous and self-righteous you might consider that other people have the right to a differing point of view.  I acknowledge your right to play any way you want and even your right to not like the way I play.  I never took offense at the rock being a 'public resource.'  I take offense at your condescending tone and you stating implicitly that I have no right to even WANT to play the way I want to play.  The only one imposing THEIR style on anyone is YOU!!!
    Posted 9 months ago by Shallawalla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ok, let's step back from the edge here, please? If that can't happen, I will close this topic for a bit.

    Thanks
    Posted 9 months ago by kevbob Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ah, kevbob. :) What would we do without you, O Great Peacekeeper?

    *glomps*
    Posted 9 months ago by Aurora Dellaterra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "It's personal ethics, but in the end, what it all comes down to is that regardless of whether someone has being rude in mind when they help you mine a rock, it's still benefiting BOTH parties!"

    No, it doesn't necessarily 'benefit' both parties.  The key commodity in the mining activity is the opportunity to mine.  People jump all over the map looking for opportunities to mine their favorite type of rock.  The energy expended in mining the rock is a secondary issue for many players.  When someone else joins in and mines with them, it takes away some of the opportunity to mine. 

    The developers coded in a small 'bonus' amount you receive when someone 'helps' you mine, to compensate in a small way for the 'helper' using up your opportunity to mine the rock, but it's certainly not anywhere near the difference from what you would get from mining the rock solo.  All you get when somebody else 'helps' you mine is a little extra rock for the energy expended.  The opportunity to mine that rock is diminished because the rock goes away much faster with multiple players mining it.
    Posted 9 months ago by Rannel Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm sorry if you found that condescending.  I intended nothing condescending in my post.  

    Given those things you quoted, then the first post you objected to didn't even apply to you.  It's not as if I addressed you by name.  It appears I have stepped into the middle of something in progress.  Carry on.  
    Posted 9 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This again? *looks at back at dozens and dozens of other topics about etiquette* 

    Can't everyone just shut up and play how they like to play?
    Posted 9 months ago by Piratice Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am the OP and I am surprised at how this discussion has taken off and where it has gone.

    Since my original post I have learned a great deal about mining and I have discovered Ajaya Bliss. That room is everything I hoped for when I joined Glitch: it is full of life and cooperation and personality. Most people are wonderful, some are not but it is always fun. It is truly cooperative mining and it showed me how well "helping" can work when people are truly helping each other mine.

    That being said, I feel that some of the hard feelings in this thread are due to people not making the distinction between rules and etiquette. Yes, it is certainly true that there is no rule against helping someone mine a rock, however a large number of people  (in the open rooms)  seem to feel it is a breach of etiquette.

    The closest thing I can compare it to would be picnic tables in a park. No, it is not illegal for you to sit at a stranger's table but it is regarded as intrusive, especially if there are other tables available. And if there are no tables available it is common courtesy to pause and ask "May I?" before sitting down at an occupied table. No one thinks they "own" the tables, they just feel it is a violation of personal space. This seems to be how many people who prefer solitary mining view the situation. I think this is especially true of people at lower levels and with lower mining skills.

    I also think it is accepted these days that if you are doing something that makes someone uncomfortable, even if you mean no harm, their discomfort outweighs your convenience.

    The intent of my original post was to feel people out about the etiquette and also to explore what seemed to be the doublespeak of the "helping" terminology. It does seem kind of Orwellian of TS to call it helping if a lot of people view it as the opposite.

    I just wanted to come back and thank everyone for all the great information and insight.
    Posted 9 months ago by Miss Bobbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Rannel You expressed perfectly what I have tried to say for months. Bravo. That single chunk I receive for each "help" action does not make up for all the chunks in the other half of the rock that I no longer have the opportunity to mine.

    +1 Miss Bobbit as well. Your picnic table analogy is perfect. Just a perfect example. And I really wish everyone would read and remember this gem:

    "I also think it is accepted these days that if you are doing something that makes someone uncomfortable, even if you mean no harm, their discomfort outweighs your convenience."

    Amen.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is there room for compromise? I can't tell by looking at you mining whether or not you would prefer help, or whether or not you would prefer my asking first if you want help. Etiquette-wise there's no consensus on how to communicate that to other miners. So, if there is another node nearby, I will default to begin mining that one.  If there  is not another nearby, and the rock you appear to be mining looks more than 50% full, I may join you; if you would prefer not to have help, then the onus is on you to request I move off or to do so yourself.  If someone abandons their rock after I join them mining, I will make an effort not to follow them to their next rock.  If someone asks politely that they be left to themselves, then I will leave them alone completely.
    Posted 9 months ago by Scarlett Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This wouldn't be an issue at all if the rocks were persistent.  You simply mine the same rock as long as your energy supplies last, your bags are full, or you grow bored of it.

    If the rocks were permanent, nobody would mind that you mine with them.

    It's only the false "scarcity" of destruction and respawning times that causes the hard feelings. 
    Posted 9 months ago by Sooriyan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Scarlett, I agree that it would be nice to have a simple way for people to telegraph their intentions, not just in mining but also in many other aspects of Glitch.

    I wish there could be a sort of sub-header that would appear under your glitch's name, maybe about 15 characters, and that could be changed as often as you like.

    Here are some possibilities:

    Solitary Miner
    Emblems 4 sale
    Trying to die
    Need quest help

    I also think that people under level 10 should automatically display their level on that line because everyone loves to help newbies.

    Another possibility would be to have programmable hot keys that displayed frequently typed messages. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to just hit one key for phrases like: Thank you, You're welcome, Leaving now bye, Do you need help, I mine alone, Can I mine with you, etc?

    I think there is a forum area for suggestions/requests. I suppose this belongs over there...
    Posted 9 months ago by Miss Bobbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that you have a wonderful point, Miss Bobbit. I have thought about this a lot, but never got around to posting it in the idea forums.

    Saucelah: I do not wish to get involved in the argument, I merely wish for you to hear my thoughts. If you take offense at my thoughts, and begin to abuse me for it, I will consider you a fool for not listening to the reasoning of another person, and only listening to the reasoning of yourself.
    I posted about 17 seconds after you did, so I did not know what you said right before I said my piece. I say that I dislike it when people zoom around their own little 'circuit.' I consider it unfair for people to monopolize an area, because then it cannot be considered public. Often what I find works is to start at level 4 east, and try to make it as far around as possible, before you run out of bag space. This helps, because no-one can hate you for taking a tour of the Deeps.
    Also, I consider your claim that 'helping' helps lower level players to be invalid. On an average, I only have ever gotten one extra chunk from a player helping me, and I am at level 34. As I say above, those 3-4 extra chunks are no compensation for the 8-9 loss.
    Lastly, and this is what I had the biggest issue with, you say that you do not care about any other players preference. Yet, you expect others to agree with your preference. I think that this is narrow-minded, and, as you say: 'self-obsessed.'

    Hate me if you wish, but understand this: Every phrase that I used that you might consider insulting is exactly the phrase you used to describe every other player here. I am merely showing you the flaws in your presentation so that you may avoid these types of mistakes later on. The biggest thing is this: Generalizations are the down-falls of every debate.
    Posted 9 months ago by RJStormRider Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To me, it's a heck of a lot less like sharing a picnic table without an invitation and a lot more like fishing the same lake.  Every fish you catch is one I cannot catch, but I still have no right to ask you to move to another lake.  There is no rudeness involved -- the lake doesn't belong to me anymore than it belongs to another fisherman.  The other fisherman is not at that lake to annoy me, he may not even be aware of me, and his only offense is chasing the same resource as me in the same area.  

    If I were to asking him to leave, I'd be out of line.  I'd have absolutely no basis for making that request.  There's no doubting it -- such an action would be rude.  I'd be making his presence about me when it has nothing to do with me -- he's just there for the fish.  

    What I'm getting at here is that if I go up to a rock and hit it, and you use a hotkey to say "I mine alone," in my mind, in my alternate subjective interpretation of events, you are asking me to leave the lake because you were there first.  But it's not your lake.  It's not your fish.  It's not even your land touching the lake.  You have no more right to ask me to leave than I do to demand that you stay.  Your not familiar with my patterns, how often I'm at that spot, how long I've been fishing that lake, whether or not I'm waiting for others to arrive, etc.  

    If you did come up and berate me and demand that I leave, I'm pretty sure that any ranger or police officer I contact would care more about your behavior than the fact you were there first.  

    I've said it a million times -- you can only control your own behavior.  If you like to mine alone -- that's fine.  I do too, sometimes.  But your desire to mine alone has absolutely nothing to do with me and demands no specific behavior from me.  If you tell me you want to mine alone, my response on a good day will be: "Well hey then, you should probably find somewhere with less people wandering by."  On a bad day, it will probably be "Would you like a cookie?"  

    But it's not going to be gushing apologies and rushing away to give you space.  

    A few things: I don't buy the idea that most people mining alone in the open areas find it irritating if others hit the same rock.  Been mining for a long time, and I've only run into people that leave a rock when I arrive on rare occasion.  Seems most players just go about their business with or without others at the same rock and take no notice of it one way or the other.  

    I also think it is far from true that when a behavior makes someone uncomfortable, then it is the behavior that is at fault.  I have a friend who is uncomfortable when men go barefoot or wear sandals.  Do we need to demand that men stop visiting beaches when she's around?  Or would it be acceptable for her to ask them to leave the beach because she was there first and their feet are upsetting her?  Quite simply, there are a lot of things that make people uncomfortable that are acceptable behaviors.  It doesn't make the behaviors wrong.  It does mean that the uncomfortable people needs to change their expectations -- they either need to remove themselves from the situation or modify their perception in order to better tolerate the behavior.  

    It's fine to want to mine alone.  But it's impractical and a bit pushy to expect others to understand that or care if they do.  
    Posted 9 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I understand that people have differing priorities in the game and that efficient use of time and energy is not everyone's top priority.  However, I would be interested to know whether anyone disagrees with the following factual claims regarding game mechanics:

    (1) If there are two rocks of the same type side by side, and two miners of the same skill mine those two rocks together from start to finish, they will both get slightly more than if they each mine one rock solo.

    (2) If there are two rocks of the same type side by side, and two miners of differing skills mine those two rocks together from start to finish, the miner with the higher skill will get more and the miner with the lower skill will get less than if they each mine one rock solo.

    (3) If there are multiple rocks of the same type on a street, a higher skill miner will be able to clear away 2-3 of them while a lower skill miner working solo finishes a single rock.

    (4) If there is just one rock of a given type on a street, one person mining that rock will get more if a second person entering the street moves on to another street rather joining them in the mining of that rock.

    I understand that these are only a few of many possible scenarios. These seem to me to the the simplest cases.
    Posted 9 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think you are misreading me.  I no more expect others to care about my preference than I care about theirs.  

    My circuit is actually larger than the top area of Ilmenskie, so I doubt you would even realize I was on a circuit.  Except when I mine with my friends, in which case our circuit is 1 - 3 streets.  Yet people have come on to the street where the group of us almost always is and been angry that we ended up following them to a rock.  That's what we do, and that's where we do it.  The solo miner has no more right to ask me or my friends to leave a rock then we do to demand they come to the rock we're mining.  It works both ways.  

    As for the lower level bit.  I should have clarified that I meant "lower skills" rather than lower level.  Someone with Mining I is going to take a long time to clear a rock.  If I come into the street and choose a different rock, I can clear that whole street and perhaps a neighboring street while that player is still alone on the same rock.   So yes, that player will get more from that one rock, but it will cost them more energy.  And in the long run, it will take them longer to find the next rock, because I've cleared out every other one in sight.  I realized this before I had Mining IV, and began to be annoyed when players avoided my rock, knowing that it would be so much harder to find the next one.  

    But I didn't start a thread and demand that others help me before picking a new rock, because there is nothing inappropriate about playing the game the way they want to.  It would have been inappropriate to believe my annoyance was a sign that their behavior is universally and unequivocally rude or to believe my annoyance gave me the right to demand they change their behavior.  
    Posted 9 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Who says it's "your" rock in the first place? Rocks are rocks, and they'll be back in a few minutes for you anyway. Seems to me mining the plentiful rocks isn't worth making up an "etiquette" for. If you want to get more, learn mining 4. 
    Posted 9 months ago by Fitzibitzin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The fishing analogy above is not valid because there are always hundreds or thousands of fish uncaught in any good sized lake. Any one fisherman on any one day (unless fabulously skilled) cannot significantly reduce the number of available fish. This is completely the opposite from the mining situation in the open rooms of glitch where a high level, high skilled miner who "helps" lower level, lower skilled miners can have a severe impact on their take.

    A much more accurate fishing analogy would be a fisherman who comes upon another fisherman in an open area and insists on fishing right next to him. This is universally regarded as rude. 

    The vast majority of people have a gut feeling for the idea of personal space.There is no point in denying it.

    And I do think that most people try not to give offense to others. Perhaps not so much on a public street but certainly in one-to-one interactions.

    And yes, there is a significant number of people who do not have a clue about any of this and when I meet someone like that I assume they are somewhere on the autism spectrum and I try to be sympathetic and accommodate them. But sometimes if the situation is spelled out for them they are able to learn how to adjust their behavior.
    Posted 9 months ago by Miss Bobbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And there are hundreds of thousands of bits of rock to pick.  Not only that, they regenerate on their own.  

    Interesting that you think fishing next to someone else is universally rude -- off the top of my head I can think of dozens of fishing spots in my area where that's not only not rude, it's absolutely necessary if you want to fish.  

    In general, assuming someone who doesn't share your ideas of politeness is "on the autism spectrum" is a level of rudeness going beyond sharing a rock without an invitation.  I know several mothers of autistic children who would be livid at the mere suggestion.  
    Posted 9 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Unless there is only one rock in the area a low-skill miner is traversing, a high-skill miner in the same area will reduce that low-skill miner's take no matter what. Needless to say, the low-skill miner would get more rock if no one else were around. However, since other players do have a right to be there, the question becomes one of whether the low-skill miner will be better off mining alone while others clear away the other rocks in the area at a higher speed vs. mining collaboratively.

    The math gets complicated, but I believe the lower-skill comes miner comes out ahead mining collaboratively rather than mining solo in most cases.
    Posted 9 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I used to be one of those miners that would come in and join people in mining most of the rocks that are around, but then, I was playing in Pollokoo/Callopee when there were more miners than there are now.

    Having been to Ajaya Bliss and Neva Neva and hating what both seemed like at the time (calling out rocks, too many people, people trying to control the space, etc) I gave up mining in those areas. I could also get mor rocks on my own anyways so I gave up. These days there's people asking on Global for more people to join those areas because they get empty.

    These days I find when I am mining at "off peak" hours, there's fewer people, and while I don't mind people occasionally coming around and helping me, I usually tend to hit the next rock if I see someone mining one. If you're mining a sparkly and I come on the street, I will tend to hit up the next sparkly, the one that you aren't mining and take it down myself. I've been seeing this behavior more since I've hit up the mines, and I'm cool with it.

    I occasionally give out drinks, food and RKs to some miners I pass, especially if I see them regualarly, but that's not a requirement for every player to do so, and I do it because I feel like it.

    I don't use Earthshakers too often, but when I do, I'm usually hoping I can clear the room of all the rocks I need before it finishes, and before others come in to help me, which, in a sense, would waste the time on the drink.

    Either way, it's not too hard to ask someone if they want to be joined to respect their preferences, or go to a different street. There's plenty of rocks all around.
    Posted 9 months ago by Ayasta Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Saucelah, if you walk right up next to someone who is already fishing and begin fishing RIGHT NEXT to them, you are in serious breach of fishing etiquette! I have been fishing my whole life, literally since I was about 2, and this is one of the first rules I learned. Once someone has "claimed" a fishing spot, you either move on to the next one, or ask politely (and quietly) if they mind if you join them. That's not to say that you can't fish in the same lake or stream as they are, just not the same hole. The lake is more analagous to a room in Glitch, not a rock.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I absolutely hate mining with other people. If someone comes to mine a rock I'm mining I drop a quick "I hate you" and switch to another street.

    And honestly, you can pull off a miracle and hash out what "mining etiquette" is in this thread, but odds are it's never going to be 100% followed in-game. TS isn't going to start policing the mines or any other place in-game. And if you start doing it yourself, well, I think you taking Glitch too seriously and ruining the fun for yourself and maybe other people.

    This is the Internet. You are never in a billion years, going to get everyone to agree with you.

    If it's really bothering you, then talk to the person who is doing it in-game. It's faster than knocking it back and forth in the forums.

    Honestly, the only thing I get from these sorts of topics is knowing who to block.
    Posted 9 months ago by Piratice Subscriber! | Permalink