Topic

Revisiting "Help Mine" topic

I know this enveloped to a huge thread a while back and the pop-up dialog to allow "help mine" was removed, which is fine and all, but I am seeing a huge amount of greed/competition developing (*cough* Ajaya Bliss competition) that is completely against the whole idea of cooperation and teamwork.

Situation:
- Glitch#1 with level 1 mining enters a vacant map say in Salatu with 4 full rocks in it to mine
- Glitch#1 drinks earthshaker and begins mining
- Random Glitch#2 enters map and proceeds to "help" mine the rock
- Now, normally this is fine EXCEPT random Glitch#2 has level IV Mining
- Glitch#2 clears the rock, leaving Glitch#1 hammering at the ground to finish the cycle
- Proceeding to the next rock, the Glitch#1 may get maximum 2 clumps before it is gone
- This action leaves Glitch#1 very upset that this random Glitch#2 is not waiting or "helping", but is instead finishing the rocks and running off.

My friend reported this to me today as her situation and was quite upset over the callous actions of that miner. I then proceeded to the caves (I don't mine much and have level 2 mining) to see for myself. Sure enough, within 15 minutes of mining while waiting to see a ghost, I too was subject to the "help mine" problem and well, felt very cheated.

I'm not a "serious miner" and do not want to be competitive in mining, it's not important to me. If it were, I'd have Mining IV too. That in mind, think about situations such as these before commenting as this has nothing to do with how beneficial it is supposed to be (I agree it is in the long run more beneficial to share mining). However, it seems a bit lopsided.
 
Suggestion 1:
Impose Mining skill level comparison limit to automatically "help", requiring a dialog to allow help. Glitches with skill levels in mining within one level of one another do not require a dialog to "help mine". Anything greater than 1 level requires permission.

Suggestion 2 (per striatic):
The reward when you are helped should be increase by one. If one person helps, you get 2 bonus chunks. if 2 help you, you get 4 bonus chunks. It could also be managed that each and every time you help, the person you help mine gets more chunks.

Suggestion 2A (per striatic): Each and every time someone helps, the person you help mine gets more chunks. If someone is mining slowly because they are at low level, and the helper manages to get three 'helps' in during their single mining action, the player being helped would receive 6 bonus chunks per mining action - assuming the bonus is boosted to 2.  (#helpers x 2chunk=bonus)

Suggestion 3 (Per  Skwid):
This option is "first come, first serve". Mining a node loots the whole node in one go. This could take the current amount of time, or take 5 times longer than mining currently takes, it doesn't really matter as long as spawn times are consistent.

Suggestion 4 (Per  Skwid):
The second one is more in the spirit of Glitch in my opinion, but is much more difficult to implement. (The following is a summary of my interpretation of Skwid's suggestion) Throttle the speed of all players mining together to the same speed as the player with the highest skill level.

Suggestion 5 (Per ICountFrom0):
Make the mining speed of the first miner be the default speed for all others joining to mine. If a level 1 initiates a mining session on a rock, anyone joining to help will mine at the same speed (if lower than their own). This way you will "help" at their speed if lower than your own or mine at your speed if theirs is higher.

Suggestion 6 (Per Biohazard):
When you select the rock, you then choose "Mine!", which sounds a whole lot like it belongs to you. Perhaps this could be changed to excavate or pick (v).

Suggestion 7 (Per Many Many Glitches):
Change "help mine" to help the OTHER person mine their rock, resulting in the helper receiving less rock chunks than the person they are helping (or none at all).

Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • "Considering it stops your losing any health for a certain amount of time.....it would mean that at lower levels food is a more viable choice when mining. However, at higher levels, earthshakers will be the most viable because it will prevent any loss of health, and take up must less space in bags."

    you mean energy, right? not sure what health is.

    yes, it stops you from losing energy entirely for a certain amount of time, but you can only use so much energy in that time, and so every Earthshaker is only worth so much energy.

    at the lower mining levels you mine much more slowly than when you get to Mining 4, but the Earthshakers still run out in the same amount of time. Mining also uses up more energy per chunk at the bottom 2 levels, which helps compensate somewhat, but you mine so slowly that you get very little mining in before the 
    Earthshaker expends itself. There is no difference in energy expenditure per mining action between 3 and 4, only speed, and so the value of the Earthshaker is reduced at Mining 3 because, again, less mining per Earthshaker.

    it is easier to understand if you forget the buff and think about how much energy the Earthshaker save you versus how cheaply you could buy that energy as food.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Skwid, no offense but you aren't the only one in game.  Maybe the other player needs rocks too.  Everything in the game is shared if it's not on your character, including rocks.  It seems a little selfish to claim a whole street full of rocks to yourself and say anyone who passes through is encroaching on you
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lovinnt, 
    If you bought into the energy efficiency argument, you'd agree with striatic, and we wouldn't be having this discussion, but since it's still going on, I'm offering a *frustration-reducing* solution. 

    When the mining for it is good, I go crazy on sparkly, because I also need it if I want to make molybdenum.  I don't need it to make money, though, which one of the big mining motivators. 

    My point was that if you focus on sparkly, you're gonna have other people jumping on your rocks. Changing the mining dynamic and physics will only shift this, as it's a scarcity issue. Then, if you aren't *first* to the rock (by some of the suggested solutions) then you don't get any.  If you mine as fast as the "helper," it will deplete the rock even faster, though you will get a marginally higher share. I predict that if this happens, per rock vs per minute will still be an issue.

    I'm just trying to offer some relief from the frustrations which I understand.
    Posted 15 months ago by Wiggles The Fluent Subscriber! | Permalink
  • At the levels you are at typically when you achieve Mining IV your total energy maximum begins to offset some of the other costs of mining. When my energy level was around 1000 I would casually mine several whole rocks before bothering to do something to rebuild my energy. 60 meats still worked. :P Of course I had all the cooking skills to go with it and awesome stews lived up to their name, but having a house with a few piggies and the relevant animal skills went quite far.  Basically put: Low levels suck and it seems an uphill battle to get things accomplished without finding yourself in Hell (I had my share of badges from that).

    This game is in beta for only one more test. Probably no more than a week long. We are at a stage where intrinsic changes to the game mechanics are not very likely for a while. Right now we are just making sure no more significant bugs creep up before final release. Our opinions and suggestions are still important to the staff, but not as urgent anymore. Right now they have to release for there to be any chance of success. Once the ball is rolling they can go back and add changes over time. They might modify the mining mechanic (they recently have) but, other than a few tweaks, I doubt there will any significant changes in the near future.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Laurali wrote: Skwid, 5 minutes is nearly double 3 minutes, which majorly changes your argument about their efficiency for low level miners, when for just a few energy you can nibble a pig and get about +20-30 energy per pig
    It doesn't change my argument which backs exactly what you just said (the '5' was a typo not a calculation, I knew it was only 3 minutes). At mining 4 it is more efficient for me to use Earthshakers and continue mining than to go find 50 pigs to nibble to restore my level 40ish energy to max.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "This is your perception.  Look at the number of times this has come up and the number of people who have said that it is a problem to them."

    on the other hand, while the game is running, there are people mining in Ajaya Bliss 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, all consciously benefitting from this mechanic. far more people than i've ever heard complaining about it. like, orders of magnitude more.

    personally, i have received ten "thank yous" outside of Ajaya Bliss for helping people mine, and i very rarely do it, like, maybe once or twice per test session. granted, that's over a bunch of test sessions, but the number if comparable to the complaints i saw in global chat during that time.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Laurali wrote: @Skwid, no offense but you aren't the only one in game.  Maybe the other player needs rocks too.  Everything in the game is shared if it's not on your character, including rocks.  It seems a little selfish to claim a whole street full of rocks to yourself and say anyone who passes through is encroaching on you
    I'd appreciate it if you'd stop using personal attacks to try to further your arguments, it's not a very nice way to play. I didn't say I hated it, I didn't say people couldn't do it, I didn't say that I tell people to "get off my lawn" what I said, or meant to portray, is that I find it annoying and less efficient to have to deal with the issue. I go out of my way to avoid competing with other miners, and like it when people don't compete with me. This is a personal preference that I am not trying to force on other people. Remember, I'm the person who's suggesting that BOTH miners should get a full rock's worth of chunks when they help each other.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "The solution the devs came up with the majority of the time helps people, and I've only seen a handful of people above who disagree compared to the numerous amount of people I've mined with who benefited.  The solutions I see people listing above as a way that mining hurt them are pretty uncommon circumstances."

    Try doing a search in the forums.  This is not the only thread about "help mine" and it has also arisen in threads about other subjects.  If you think this is uncommon, you are either turning a blind eye, or you haven't looked.   I don't think you meant the solutions you see people listing above, but rather the problems people have listed above as a way that mining hurt them, but in either case, whether you want to admit it or not, it is a COMMON circumstance.  It even happened to Blanky.

    So, to be sure I'm clear on what your problem is with this:  You don't think "help mine" is a problem for enough people and therefore it should be left as it is.  You don't see that any of the solutions proposed will actually harm you or anyone else, but you would rather that some people continue to  have a problem because it is not a problem for you and therefore you do not want there to be a change.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic has been with this game since its early days. The complaints have been hammered at a long time and he's done the analysis for quite a while concerning these issues. I think he summarized his observations quite aptly with this post: beta.glitch.com/forum/gener...
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • skwid is correct, at Mining 4 the Earthshakers are much better than nibbling piggies, or even buying food*

    *otoh you can often find food at auction that is more efficiently priced than Earthshakers bought from Helga**

    **otoh, otoh you can often find Earthshakers at auction for significantly less than Helga sells them.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • FF, yes and that has absolutely nothing to do with making this particular conversation more useful or civil, other than being an opportunity for you to pop your head up and say something smug. If you want to discuss mining, please do. if you don't, please don't insult "the natives".
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wiggles - I agree with you.  I'm just saying that eventually, I need that sparkly!
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Skwid, I was not using a personal attack, I was just commenting how your words sounded.  Nor have I personally attacked anyone else.  You said:

    "If someone else comes into *my* street"

    and 

     "I'm forced to either go to another street for a few minutes or wait for the rocks to respawn"

    Those statements to me make it seem like you felt a right to the rocks, at least more so than anyone else passing through.  I just brought it up since comments like that add to the mentality that something (a rock) belongs to a player, something that people should re-examine.

    @Striatic:  Oh My God.  Striatic telling someone else that they "pop their head in to say something smug"?  What an effing joke.  You DEFINED "popping your head in to say something smug" but frequently make it rude and offensive in the process
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just a note: Who Is Helping Who mine?  When I began mining, I get people to "help mine"!  However, I end up "helping them mine"?  I think this could be changed. Whom ever starts the mine action ends up being the main miner, all others are helping mine ?
     Would this make a difference? I don't know.
    Posted 15 months ago by Joy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It was pointing out the experience of a particular speaker to re-enforce statements that were to the point and logical. Giving a person due credit for such is not smug. I agreed with the statement and the language used to express it. I've seen reasonable statements by you hammered at by others in this thread. I'm aware of your history and analytical efforts. You give a lot of thought to your replies in this thread.

    Edit: I was tempted to address the ad hominem response, but I saw that it would only be cause for an unnecessary flame war.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic - I'm willing to bet that the majority of those mining in Ajaya Bliss 24/7 are high level miners who would not have these problems.  I learned very quickly to avoid that street.  Two people with M4 that mine together would both benefit.  Actually, 2 people with M1 that mine together would probably both benefit.  The problem arises when M4 mines with a lower level miner; and you can't easily determine what level another player is.  I don't doubt that 10 people thanked you for your help.  I'm curious if they said why they were thanking you.  Were they just being polite or did they say something to the effect of "wow, I got so many more chunks of rock with you helping than I would have had I mined by myself over the same time."
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Laurali wrote: @Skwid, I was not using a personal attack, I was just commenting how your words sounded.
    It doesn't matter what my words sounded like, reprimanding me for saying a street was "my" street" has no bearing on the validity of my arguments about "help mine" and is simply slander. If you want to discuss whether or not the street I live on in real life is "my street" or not I would gladly discuss that issue with you somewhere else.

    I also find it hypocritical of you to make this argument since you have asserted several times earlier in the thread that low-skill players should only mine in certain areas: "For those who have low mining levels, either learn mining as a priority, or mine where there isn't any competition"
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've mined for months, was a level IV, and have never had problems.

    I mine alone, and no one offers to help and I don't intrude on other miners.

    I'm of the opion. that this "help mine" issue is a flaw in how the game works and maybe the devs. can look into it. 

    Seems like a huge amount of words for what doesn't seem to be much of an issue...

    Or not!

    :)
    Posted 15 months ago by MeherMan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Laurali, my friend, I am soooo sorry for the loss of your friend in the crash. Your mentioning this in this thread made no sense to me. No one and I mean no one should feel hurt or get hurt in any game.
    RL is hard enough and your bringing this up made no point to me that is worth any pain. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Joy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • MeherMan wrote: Seems like a huge amount of words for what doesn't seem to be much of an issue...

    How dare you insinuate that we are wordy people! :D
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @lovintnt - Good point. I was helping a beginner friend with mining. Showing him the ropes. He complained that I was mining too fast for him (I think I was level IV). So I paced my mining back and tried to work out a balanced approach with him. This is one spot where the mechanic is clearly a disadvantage to others with lower levels. But prior to the "Help Mine" feature the situation was much worse. I helped him with Earth Shakers. Showed him how to use the mining vendors, etc. But I have yet to see in any game system where the level differences causes the higher level player to be handicapped. This is patently unfair to that player with regards to time and effort spent to the development of their characters.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Joy:  It was a long long time ago and it's not something that still affects me today.  I brought it up to make a point, just because something doesn't work for a few people doesn't mean it should be thrown out completely.

    Skwid:  I am sorry but you are misinterpreting the point I was trying to make.  In this context, it does matter what your words sound like because the whole argument centers around the fact that some people think that rocks belong to them because they were there first or that they have a right to the entire rock.  So using words like "mine" in this context *does* matter, because it just reinforces the idea that it belongs to someone.  I think you are taking it more personally than I intended it to be, and I'm sorry it came across that way.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "@Striatic:  Oh My God.  Striatic telling someone else that they "pop their head in to say something smug"?  What an effing joke.  You DEFINED "popping your head in to say something smug" but frequently make it rude and offensive in the process"

    no, i'm engaging in a conversation with you. if you find it smug, ok, but it's on topic and the point isn't to be smug, it is to discuss the issue at hand.

    "striatic - I'm willing to bet that the majority of those mining in Ajaya Bliss 24/7 are high level miners who would not have these problems."

    that does not make their enjoyment any less valuable, and new miners also benefit in Ajaya Bliss. see my earlier story about the new miner who though the cave was magic based on how many rocks he was getting without having to eat as much. Ajaya is amazing for new miners, they get bonus chunks and pretty much zero distance to the next rock, so it is pretty much exactly as if they were mining one rock - just with bonuses. if you've been avoiding it, your loss i guess.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for bringing us back around to the topic FF and LovinTNT. I think almost all of the issues in this thread would be solved with one f the solutions suggested at the beginning of the thread. Of course, mine are the best, so if everyone will just pick one of those we can move on to discussing the best way to get drinks at level 2 for the BOTW party! ;-)
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • FF - I agree that the higher level player should not be handicapped.  That's why I like the idea of "help mine" being changed to actually help the person being "helped."  The higher level player could then decide if it was worth it to "help" or not.  No handicap.  At a minimum, I would like there to be a limit on the number of people that can "help" another.  I would rather the change be greater than this, but in lieu of changing how "help mine" functions it would at least be an improvement.  And again, I don't see that it would handicap the higher level miners.  If M4's like to mine in groups of 3 or 4 (or more, I have no idea) then maybe the limitation could be set up to not apply when everyone involved is M4.  I have no idea if that's possible, just throwing out ideas. 
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • all of this could be solved just as easily by bumping the bonus chunks to 2, but instead we get "back off my rock!" solutions like having the second miner get *nothing*.

    it is pretty clear this isn't about chunks, but about the sense of ownership some people feel when they touch a rock first.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • " At a minimum, I would like there to be a limit on the number of people that can "help" another."

    if you want that, it appears that on a fundamental level you don't understand how "help mine" works, mechanically.

    the more helpers, the more chunks everyone ends up with.

    would you be against the bonus chunks per rock being increased to 5 per helper?
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Striatic, I am not talking about just this thread but about every time I ever see your name in a thread in the first place.

    That being said, I actually think the only idea that makes any sense is Stri's:
    "All of this could be solved just as easily by bumping the bonus chunks to 2"

    But as for a complete overhaul about how mining works, I haven't seen a suggestion that *in my opinion* would work because they all either hurt the higher level (who should have benefits, not penalties) or foster the idea that a rock belongs to a particular player, which in the future will only cause even further debate and animosity.

    Example "I can click faster than you so even if we both arrive at the same time, it's my rock" 
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "that does not make their enjoyment any less valuable, and new miners also benefit in Ajaya Bliss. see my earlier story about the new miner who though the cave was magic based on how many rocks he was getting without having to eat as much. Ajaya is amazing for new miners, they get bonus chunks and pretty much zero distance to the next rock, so it is pretty much exactly as if they were mining one rock - just with bonuses. if you've been avoiding it, your loss i guess"

    Again, it all depends on the experience.  I went to Ajaya Bliss, found several people involved in conversations and one rock which I started to mine.  I was immediately joined by 2 other players who "helped" me mine the rock to nothing, leaving me mining air, while they moved on and decimated the next rock that spawned, leaving me with nothing.  I can acknowledge that for a group of friends, all with M4, it might be fun to fly through that cavern together.  Can you allow the slightest possibility that it might not be fun for someone with a lower skill level to enter into that situation?  Yes, if Ajaya Bliss is empty it is amazing.  I was lucky enough to find it that way once.  Heavenly.  But it is not often so, and the "bonus chunks" just didn't happen.  Only frustration.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's odd, because there is a similar mechanic with Barnacles. Do they give two "chunks" when there is help? Maybe a proportional increase for the lower level player if they work with a higher skill level miner? Maybe I have that backwards. It would be nice to make the cooperative mining work as well as it does with Barnacles anyways. The 2 chunks thing seems at least a step in the right direction.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If "help mine" were to help by speeding up lower level players, what help would higher level players get if players of any level (but particularly lower levels) helped them?
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "the whole argument centers around the fact that some people think that rocks belong to them because they were there first or that they have a right to the entire rock"

    "but instead we get "back off my rock!" solutions like having the second miner get *nothing*."

    "it is pretty clear this isn't about chunks, but about the sense of ownership some people feel when they touch a rock first.

    I don't think anyone here has said that rocks belong to them because they were there first.  I would simply like the "help mine" to actually help the original miner, considering that is the ONE person who has no choice in the matter.  If this change were made and you didn't like the fact that the other person would benefit by getting more rock, then  you wouldn't have to help.  No loss to you or me.  Everyone wins.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Edit:  I think I'm just gonna bow out now, seems neither party will budge!
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic wrote: all of this could be solved just as easily by bumping the bonus chunks to 2, but instead we get "back off my rock!" solutions like having the second miner get *nothing*.

    Actually, this is a fairly reasonable idea, though I still think both miners should get the same quantity of chunks as they would if they were mining it alone (both receive 50 in other words).

    It's not that I feel a sense of ownership over the rock I'm mining, it's that I don't think the "helping" is clearly "helping", and is under certain circumstances hindering. No one would do it if it were worded "help hinder!" If we're going to be helping each other I don't see any real harm in making it fairly obvious that we are actually helping.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think there are two questions being discussed here:  (1) What is the optimal strategy for game play? and (2) How can TS design the Glitch user experience (UX) to optimize the chances of success for the game and for their business model?  These are really different questions.

    It seems to me that some of those posting have done a great job of explaining what strategies are optimal for mining, where optimal is defined in terms of game parameters such as energy, currants, and level progression.  In addition, they've explain how "help mine" will benefit all parties if everyone employs these optimal strategies, provided there are enough rocks available.  I find all this information helpful, and I thank those who have provided it.

    The second question is something that I think discussion here will not resolve, though it may provide information that will be helpful to TS.  As an experienced UX researcher, I can tell you that, when the goal is to provide a good user experience, it's unwise to design for optimal strategy as the sole use case.  People differ.  Some will find the game most enjoyable when they can play with maximum efficiency.  For others, being optimally efficient within the game world requires an investment of time outside the game world that lowers their overall return in terms of entertainment value per unit of time invested.

    A company like TS needs to understand user behavior and user perceptions at a statistical level -- and then make decisions about design, marketing, user support, etc. in response to that.  In a forum such as this, people can provide valuable information about use cases, problems and perceptions from an individual point of view.  However, without statistical data based on unbiased sampling, going beyond that to debate questions that are inherently statistical seems unproductive.
    Posted 15 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Striatic, I am not talking about just this thread but about every time I ever see your name in a thread in the first place."

    i'm not talking about just this thread either.

    "Again, it all depends on the experience.  I went to Ajaya Bliss, found several people involved in conversations and one rock which I started to mine.  I was immediately joined by 2 other players who "helped" me mine the rock to nothing, leaving me mining air, while they moved on and decimated the next rock that spawned, leaving me with nothing."

    why is "mining air" a problem? you still get the normal number of chunks when you finish "mining the air", plus the bonus 2, plus the potential "non nub" bonuses.

    all the rocks get mined out of Ajaya Bliss very frequently. the point isn't speed, at least not when people are group mining. the point is energy efficiency. tons of chunks for little energy. waiting for respawn at Ajaya is something everyone does, not just low level players.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Actually, this is a fairly reasonable idea, though I still think both miners should get the same quantity of chunks as they would if they were mining it alone (both receive 50 in other words)."

    i'm not against that idea, but it would be complicated to implement. easiest way would be to instance all the rocks on a per player basis, which defeats the purpose of a shared world.

    and surely you mean 50 plus any communal bonuses.. 
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "if you want that, it appears that on a fundamental level you don't understand how "help mine" works, mechanically."

    Yes, striatic, I do understand.  We have a fundamental difference of opinion on what is important.  We have hashed and rehashed it. 

    "would you be against the bonus chunks per rock being increased to 5 per helper?"

    No, I would not be against it, just as I'm not against the "bonus chunks" being 1 or 2.  I just do not believe it would solve the problem.

    "But as for a complete overhaul about how mining works, I haven't seen a suggestion that *in my opinion* would work because they all either hurt the higher level (who should have benefits, not penalties) or foster the idea that a rock belongs to a particular player,"

    How does limiting the number of players that can mine a single rock harm a higher level miner?  How does making the "help mine" benefit the person being helped hurt a higher level miner, who would have the option to help or not help?
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lovin:  Limiting the number of players that can mine a rock hurts higher level players because then they can no longer get the benefit of having a huge group mine with them.  

    The only idea that has been suggested that would help the lower level while not affecting the higher levels gameplay is Stri's "2 chunks per help mine" or Skwids "each player gets 50 per rock" 

    And although I like Skwid's it would be nearly impossible to add to the game
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The more I think about it the less interested in the "A bunch of high skill miners came through and munched up all my rocks!" thing. That's what high skill miners do, they mine faster than low skill miners. They put the time in, they get the reward. It's a "coming of age" thing.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "No, I would not be against it, just as I'm not against the "bonus chunks" being 1 or 2.  I just do not believe it would solve the problem."

    if the problem is that you feel you are getting fewer chunks because of helpers, then it would unquestionably solve that problem. it would nearly double your output with but a single helper.

    if the problem is that you feel you own a rock because you touched it first, then no, it would not solve that problem.

    your response does clarify what this is really all about though.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic wrote: but it would be complicated to implement. easiest way would be to instance all the rocks on a per player basis, which defeats the purpose of a shared world.

    I agree that it wouldn't be easy, not all great things are. That being said, I think it would be fairly easy to program (given, I'm not a programmer) the command "help mine" to return ore without removing "actions" on the rock. Say there are 5 actions-worth of chunks in a rock. Someone uses "Mine" and another person uses "Help Mine". Only the "Mine" action will count, while both actions return the same quantity of chunks. So 5 "Mine" actions could be performed on a rock and as many "Help Mine" actions as the helper can fit in before the rock is gone.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Only thing that might worry me is a form of griefing by higher level players against lower level ones. "Mine Bullies"
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "why is "mining air" a problem? you still get the normal number of chunks when you finish "mining the air", plus the bonus 2, plus the potential "non nub" bonuses."

    Mining air, in and of itself, is not a problem.  In your previous post you had commented that "Ajaya is amazing for new miners, they get bonus chunks and pretty much zero distance to the next rock, so it is pretty much exactly as if they were mining one rock - just with bonuses"  My point is that that was not my experience there.  The "zero distance" did not exist, since there were no other rocks in the cavern and any "bonuses" were eaten up by the fact that the rock was gone before I got more than 2 mining actions in.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • All I can say about this thread is "haha". :)
    Posted 15 months ago by Bashere Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "if the problem is that you feel you are getting fewer chunks because of helpers, then it would unquestionably solve that problem. it would nearly double your output with but a single helper.

    if the problem is that you feel you own a rock because you touched it first, then no, it would not solve that problem.


    your response does clarify what this is really all about though."

    It would only "nearly double" my output if the single helper had the same mining skill as me.  If they had a higher skill it would come nowhere near doubling my output.

    I do NOT feel I own the rock.  I have never said that and I resent you putting words in my mouth.  If you have a valid argument, why do you feel the need to resort to a personal attack?
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Fokian Fool wrote: Only thing that might worry me is a form of griefing by higher level players against lower level ones. "Mine Bullies"

    I don't think that lower skill miners should be given the same abilities of higher skill miners. Getting to Mining 3 is a fairly rapid affair, and Mining 4 takes less than a day, so we're discussing a grievance of unskilled players who want the skills of the higher skill players who have put the time in to learn the skill. I'm not saying that it won't be a problem, but you can't expect to be able to mine as efficiently as a Miner 4 when you're only Mining 1-3.

    It would surprise me if Griefing weren't explicitly stated to be bannable offense in the TOS, and as yet I haven't heard of anyone running around deliberately blocking lowbies from finding nodes. All these stories are about skill 4 miners doing what they do.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Lovin:  Limiting the number of players that can mine a rock hurts higher level players because then they can no longer get the benefit of having a huge group mine with them."

    Fair enough, then what if there was no limit for higher levels, when mining with other higher levels? 
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "The more I think about it the less interested in the "A bunch of high skill miners came through and munched up all my rocks!" thing. That's what high skill miners do, they mine faster than low skill miners. They put the time in, they get the reward. It's a "coming of age" thing."

    that's Laurali's argument, and there's something to it.

    .. but you also don't want to totally alienate new miners by having it negatively affect them, which is why the bonus chunks are there, so that it has a positive impact, at the *very least* in terms of energy expenditure.

    it seems that there will always be a segment of the population that, having touched a rock, get very touchy themselves. even if undeniably beneficial extra chunks are granted to them, the fact that they don't get to mine "their" rock entirely from tip to nub is going to disturb them.

    based on the preview, it appears that group halls will have rocks to mine. given enough streets, such a hall could have enough rocks for a player to mine on their own in total isolation. this may be the only workable solution for a that segment of players.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Only thing that might worry me is a form of griefing by higher level players against lower level ones. "Mine Bullies"

    Some might argue that this already exists.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink