Topic

Feat Rewards and Botters

I've yet to play a game where the top event rewards don't go to botters.  It's a little disheartening to put effort into something only to realize at the end you never stood a chance.  That the hours you spent participating net the same rewards as if you had only done the feat once.

I for one am done even trying anymore.  I'll do what I have to do to get a single point in the feat and then I'm calling it quits, because it's a waste of time to do otherwise.  Especially considering there is no way to tell how much effort is needed to advance to the next prize tier. 

Just make the prizes the same for everyone and stop rewarding scripting skills. 

Posted 46 days ago by Pickle Juice Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I'm not saying it never happens here, it very well may. I dunno. But I do know a few people who have come in high up on the leaderboard (top 5 even)... and they did it through good ol' fashioned man power (mixed with a hefty dose of insanity). They spent *hours* in front of the computer doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again (thousands of times). It becomes this crazy all consuming obsession, err, goal. So all consuming that, sometimes, they even recruit their friends to help them out with it - one friend had a fairly constant stream of friends dying for her so that she could mourn them. 

    The thing with the feats is that to get in the top places is going to require that sort of... dedication. If you're not ok with that (in general or for that feat), just do as much of it as you *enjoy* doing. I was super cranky right before the sparkly feat and swore I was just going to do a little bit of it because FeatsAreEvil!!! NeverAgain!!! Something happened and I realized I could actually have *fun* with it. I tore up my backyard and filled it with sparkly. I staged photos. I had parties. I gave a few friends who were going at it a bit more seriously keys to my house so they could have another private street filled with rocks. I wound up getting a small (medium?) rock for all the sparkly I donated... which was just this crazy little bonus after all the fun I'd had. 
    Posted 46 days ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't think they're botters, but people with very fast connections and very dedicated to the job. 
    I understand the bitterness - I have a netbook and a slow connection and spent about 5 hours to get only 70 points which will net me one single small rock, no doubt. 
    As that's what I would get if I visited only a couple of people, it is disheartening. 
    However, there's nothing TS can do about it really. Those with fast computers will always fare better and it's certainly not their fault! 
    People complained about the ''all in one street doing the same thing'' feats, that caused lag and were repetitive. Now we see complaints about connection problems because of constant zoning. 
    If anything, yes, maybe the rewards system should be revisited, but I must say that for now this feat is at least fun, although hard for some. 
    Posted 46 days ago by Zira Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe I'm just being paranoid.  Too much fluoride in the drinking water is rotting my brain!
    Posted 46 days ago by Pickle Juice Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Eh, it happens PJ. Leaderboards (and fluoride ;)) tend to have that effect... they change the fun dynamic a bit, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. I work in game/experience design and have a total love/hate thing with them as both a player & designer (badges/achievements, too). My experience over the last few feats has been all over the map. My, annoyingly idealistic but grounded in reality, advice is that when you find yourself getting frustrated with them, find the fun. It may be in just giving up on that feat or going the route I did with the sparkly feat or, if your time allows, going all out with it for the challenge of it.
    Posted 46 days ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The feats primarily just involve hours of time for the leaderboards. In addition to spending time, it's more efficient if you work out a strategy/optimize how you get points and often there is a noticeable difference in earning more points in a shorter amount of time. Sometimes this requires group effort, too. I wrote a description and recorded a game video of one way to gain points quickly for a previous feat (#7) here: http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/28356/
    Posted 46 days ago by TomC Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My objection to it all is that these feats are mostly MINDLESS. We are, as the OP noted, doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over… you get the idea.

    No strategy, no cumulative cleverness, no sophisticated collaboration, just little rats pressing lab levers.

    And in the current Epic, even the moral of the story is being vitiated. When you turn saying "hi" into a meaningless press of the button to be done as quickly as possible and then on to the next, you make a mockery of social interaction. When you turn visiting into a fly-by zip onto and off a home street, you destroy the meaning of getting to know a new place and giving a real gift to a new person. It all becomes a means to a prize, not something to be delved into with curiosity and sustained attention. A short attention span and willingness to turn oneself into a bot is rewarded by this feat.

    I have to say that I am becoming increasingly disenchanted with Glitch. The game qualities I find most interesting (coherent narrative, meaningful challenges, intellectual stimulation, choices that matter and have interesting consequences) have been eroded over time and I see no indication that the general direction of the game is to renew or strengthen them. All the little details that could have been clues, could have gradually added up to a bigger existential picture, have—as far as I can tell—mostly merely been dada-esque amusements with no greater meaning. That's fine for the short-run, but highly unsatisfying to me in the long run.

    The main redeeming quality of the game has been the interesting people who play it, and I'm afraid that many of those I've spoken with agree with me and have left already or cut way back on their play. I also love the beautiful artwork. But unless the game takes a new and unexpected twist in development, I suspect I've reached an end-stage in my participation.

    I'm very grateful to TS and my fellow players for the many hours of enjoyment and fun I've had with Glitch. I'm sure I'll continue to check in, as I have been, from time to time. But my enthusiasm has been on the wane for a while and I felt the need to acknowledge it here.

    No game is for everybody, forever. To all those who continue to have a blast, YAY! I hope that you and TS live long and prosper.
    Posted 46 days ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "When you turn saying "hi" into a meaningless press of the button to be done as quickly as possible and then on to the next, you make a mockery of social interaction. "

    This is a VERY good point.

    When the feat started last night, I found myself chasing the leaderboards, I was even on the top row for a little while. Then as my internet connection started to decline, and streets began to load more and more slowly, I suddenly thought to myself...what the HELL am I doing? This is supposed to be fun? Clicking over and over and over...for what? When I could be doing other fun stuff, even in the game itself. Or I could just..yanno...spend those hours and hours and hours not staring at the screen.

    And then I couldn't get in anyway so that dilemma solved itself:P But seriously, after witnessing and taking part in a couple of feats, I am having trouble understanding the people who dedicate so many hours to getting a top spot.  Glitch is a fun game, and feats are fun, too, but the race to the top of the leaderboards is probably one of the most negative aspects of the experience, because it successfully encourages people to waste their lives in the least creative way possible. 

    I mean, if TS is okay with that, fine, but I'm not impressed. I kinda feel like this game, out of all games, should aspire to something more. And before anyone snarks, yes, I am aware that grinding is a thing in the gaming world and has been for years, and that Glitch includes grinding, too. Doesn't mean it's anything to be proud of.
    Posted 46 days ago by Cefeida Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One thing I find funny, about how the feats can encourage that mindless grinding. The reason TS gives for not allowing us to see our progress in an achivement is to discourage mindless grinding. Yet the feat tells us our points, thus encouraging mindless grinding?? And the feats are mostly mindless grindish stuff in many ways. And fun though, don't forget fun!

    Prhaps the reward from this feat will be see our progress toward uncompleted achievements. More mindless grinding please!!!!!

    Heehee.
    Posted 45 days ago by Tibbi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I play a lot of games. Mostly I like games with an engaging plot, and difficult mechanics. That's good! But it tires me out. So I really like the mindless grinding aspect of glitch, to rest my brain while having gentle fun in pretty environments.

    Also, I find the way other people Hi me nice. Maybe it's not a "meaningful" social interaction, but it's so much nicer than not saying anything which is what was happening before.
    Posted 45 days ago by Pyrrhocorax Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I actually did not find the "hi" feat to be be "5 and run" at all.  I saw many many people wait for someone else to catch up so they could say "hi."  I saw lot of Glitchen handing around on lonely streets just so others could "hi" them - even though they got no points for consecutive greetings on the same street.  Lots of laughing and chasing in fun for me.  I was in a "hi" train for a bit and that was a blast, even if we did not score all that many points.

    That said, I can not even hold my own on the current one.  I am fine on public streets, but loading home streets (including my own) is interminable, so I have pretty much given up.

    As mentioned above - if you like them and have fun - do it!  If not, you are no more likely to win Glitch if you take part in the feats.

    I never even thought of people using bots.  Hmmmm.  I know it is not true for all top scorers, but I certainly do not know all of the heroes.

    I love the feats.  I do not take part in all of them, but I love the concept and watching them in any case.
    Posted 45 days ago by Kookaburra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Truthfully, I don't think any of the leaderboard in these feats are botters.  I do think we'll eventually get a botter or two in the game - and I hope TS bans them with no mercy - but if you've actually talked to any of the leaders in any of these feats, they're usually quite happy to tell you how they did it.  And the answer is usually 'I did the exact same thing you did, but I only got two hours of sleep'. On rare occasions that wasn't quite the case - the quest feat comes to mind - in which case, the leaderboard members would be happy to say why and how.  (In that case, it was one certain quest being repeatable with no cooldown, and the leaderboard people got to the keys needed for that quest early on).

    And I think the rewards are actually really well balanced.  Everyone who participates gets one small stone.  Everyone who makes the top 1000+ gets at least two small stones.  The top 205 (minus top 26) get medium stones, and the top 26 - not 5 or 10, but 26! - get a large stone.  Even if you don't want to grind for the large stones (and it is for sure a grind), it's usually easy to get into the top 1000 - or even not that hard to get into the top 205.  When the game gets bigger and there are more players, these categories might not be as easy to get in to - but for now, they seem to fit well.
    Posted 45 days ago by Kadi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm loving the feats. I've never got more than small rocks out of them, and my name rarely appears on the leaderboards (and then near the bottom) but I find them *fun*

    The current feat could be just a matter of dashing in leaving grain and going but I've had some amazing gifts left and some really high rock IMG too. Players are having fun going round the streets and cleaning up herb gardens and feeding piggies and doing all the glitchy things that make this game great.

    If people want to grind their way to the top so what? The way I play the game is more fun for me, but grinding may be their idea of fun. It's a big game with lots of types of people playing.
    Posted 45 days ago by Momo McGlitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Fun first.
    Posted 45 days ago by Sturminator i` Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just assumed the leaderboard was a place for people to show off their autism...
    So far for me, the feats have been boring grindfests I've avoided. But yet, the greatest rewards of valuable items in this game are only achieved by grinding boring repetitive feats that make being friendly feel like a cold and empty gesture. It's hard to put blinders on and have fun ignoring the main event that TS is sponsoring.
    Posted 45 days ago by Odder Pu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Don't know nothing about no bots, but I think once you give up on getting to the top altogether, the feats are more fun.  I understand being frustrated - the "finish quests" one pissed me off a lot, because with a number of quests saved up I thought I had a chance at doing well without it being a grindfest, but then it just turned into "who can run round jethimadh tower the most".  I just shrugged in the end.  So I've been bouncing around for this one, leaving packages for friends, harvesting a lot of jellisacs on home streets I never saw before, hi-ing butlers, and it's been good craic.  I do wish they'd make the rules/loopholes clearer somewhere though - visiting through signposts being okay, jethimadh tower being rerunnable a zillion times, etc.
    Posted 45 days ago by Ms. Beagle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Odder Pu: You may not like what you're seeing from these feats, but can we at least agree that equating this to autism is a bit uncalled for? 

    I'm sitting this feat and the game out right now (Curse you, gaming marathons that leave you Super Pooped for one in-game day!) but I'd say that it's highly unlikely that the leaders here are actually botting so much as going at it really, really, really quickly due to how this game is set up. I had fun in the previous feats though just by going at my own Glitch-y pace so no real objections on my part.
    Posted 45 days ago by Sarabanda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I made the top 26 for one feat. It required 12+ hours of almost continuous mining plus a significant outlay to purchase additional rock. It was what I'll call an act of rational insanity. Insanity because it was, for me, an extremely frivolous use of time. Rational, I would argue, because it was about making a memory.

    This was the first time I made an effort to get on a game leaderboard, and probably will be the last time as well. It required a great deal of grinding, and I don't enjoy grinding unless it's in service of a goal that has value for me. Being on the leaderboard, in itself, has no value for me. Making a memory that I can look back on and smile while thinking "Yeh, I spent a day doing that crazy thing" is something that does have value, but only as a one-time event.

    There are other ways to spend a day than grinding at Glitch, and these can lead to far more precious memories. It's important to remember that, even while embracing a frivolity that can keep us from taking ourselves too seriously. There are also worse ways to spend time, and one of those worse ways, for me, would be in the construction of a bot for unfair game play.
    Posted 45 days ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I do wish they'd make the rules/loopholes clearer somewhere though - visiting through signs being okay, jethimadh tower being rerunnable a zillion times, etc."

    I agree.  I wish they would be clearer. With all these loopholes I can't help but wonder if TS planned them or just hadn't considered the different ways people would try to beat feats. If that's the case, I imagine this is good experience for when we (someday) leave beta.
    Posted 45 days ago by Squeeks Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The games still in Beta folks. The loopholes only become apparent once the grinders get cracking and find ways to beat the feat.
    Posted 45 days ago by Momo McGlitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Last night, before I decided I had enough, and would rather be reading about ponies, I had eighth place at 700 visit points.

    I used no loopholes, but I actually uncovered a bug (that gave no points, but put me at a disadvantage when I triggered it), which I would dare say is one of the things Tiny Speck was hoping people would do while stressing out the server for this.

    Quite seriously, it was a combination of finding a quiet dead end, and:
    enter enter enter
    * Whisked away to a strange street
    * While street loads: H tab up escape
    * Once the street loads, see where my 'HI' floats to, since on a home street, your first 'HI' always, and consistently, floats to the butler, EVEN if there are glitchen on the same street.
    click butler, select 'leave package' (could probably have found the hotkey for that).
    If I can't leave a package, escape tab enter escape.
    Else, leave a package, pick an item, and escape escape at leaving a message, followed by tab enter escape.

    (In this case, 'up' fills the local chat box with the last thing typed there, which in my case was /leave)

    On streets where butlers were full, I could spend no more than nine seconds there and be on my way. Otherwise, it took about 25-40 seconds.
    Streets with peculiar butler locations could eat a whole minute or two.

    I did it. It was tedious. Very tedious.
    I commend people who can stick it out for hours longer than I did.

    I think this was also to find the tedium point of the player base -- where the fun stops, and the "ugh why am I doing this" starts.
    Posted 45 days ago by Xial Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I think this was also to find the tedium point of the player base -- where the fun stops, and the "ugh why am I doing this" starts."

    Gah. I keep forgetting Beta isn't just about software bugs. Good point.
    Posted 45 days ago by Cefeida Subscriber! | Permalink
  • For me, I've found that, when I load up Glitch and see a feat in progress I've started closing the page without even Entering the World. I don't have enough free time to even show up on the leaderboard and, for the most part, Glitch has been fairly rewarding for my very casual play style. But seeing a feat in progress tells me that all I can do is get the smallest reward because there are so many maniacs with nothing else to do besides sit in front of their browser for hours on end. If it were something that I could possibly accomplish in an hour or less, I might consider it. But up against great herds of people willing to spend an entire day at it, I might as well not play.
    Posted 45 days ago by Bone Tired Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've said elsewhere that I don't think there should be individual rewards for the feats. The reward for all of us is when the new content is release if we're successful.

    This would eliminate the leaderboards and the leaderboard mentality and with it some of the grinding aspect of some of these feats. It would re-set how far we're willing to go in a day to accomplish a feat because some of the high scoring people only do it for the points and the leaderboard spot. They would do less, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

    "No strategy, no cumulative cleverness, no sophisticated collaboration, just little rats pressing lab levers." Thanks for this, Pascale. I'd generally agree.
    Posted 45 days ago by Colette Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I spent a couple of hours to get 108 points in the last feat and I once again received one petrified rock. It's clear to me that until they change the reward distribution system, I'm not going to spend any other on any future feats.
    Posted 45 days ago by Reirei Umezaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just another "I'm not a bot!" voice. I'll admit, my avatar was only on the leaderboard for about 10 seconds last night, but I know how I got it that far and I know why I didn't go further. I normally visit random people through the visiting stones and give them gifts, so this feat was a natural for me. I gave away ridiculous amounts of not-too-shabby stuff and enjoyed it. But I had to eat dinner, sleep, shower, attend to my itty bitty afk social life. I also approached the grind inefficiently, using only the visiting stones for my first 850-or-so points. If I had given it a couple more hours and got with the program earlier, I would have a lot more to show than 1444 points, a medium rock, and a small rock -I'd have the notoriety of being good at scripting. Man, my boss would love it if I were good at scripting ...
    Posted 45 days ago by Aleph Zero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hi! This topic was brought to my attention last night, and as it's possible you had me in mind while you were writing it (saw you AFK for quite some time as I was grinding), I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that I'm not a bot. I stayed awake (almost) all night, had the occasional chat, but I indeed performed all the actions I did for the feat the "normal" way. I did get questions on my methods, so I'd like to clarify them here. Basically:
    1. Spam enter until the stone sends me to a street.
    2. Talk to butler; hand GoC ticket if empty.
    3. Hit Esc to leave the message dialog, then tab into chat.
    4. Up arrow to bring up my last typed /leave.
    5. Repeat.

    This soon formed a nice set of reflex actions. So yes, my maneuvers probably did seem bot-like because of their repetitiveness, but as with most feats, repetition is what was called for. And no, I don't see a problem with that. I like these tests of endurance. =D
    Posted 45 days ago by Jus​tin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm not a bot, either! I wish I knew that last typed maneuver. :D
    Posted 45 days ago by Empyreal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I did X + B for going back to the world, which seemed faster than Tab + Up + Enter
    Posted 45 days ago by TomC Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I got a small rock on the two feats I've entered, and both had artefact beads in. One of them I collected for a princely score of ONE POINT. So you can get stuff even if you barely play at all!

    And "lol autistic people" comments aren't funny, btw.
    Posted 45 days ago by Pyrrhocorax Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Honestly, my first thought on this Feat was that it was a brilliant way to perform a server test - here we were, loading streets faster than ever before.

    I played for ten hours straight (I was home alone, and working my way through a tv series on DVD) and the closest I ever got to the leaderboard was 36 points behind. Apparently I'm not as quick as some people, but that's okay.

    I participated in the first Feat of this epic for like, ten minutes. I got an artifact piece for my trouble. So, you don't HAVE to go crazy. Will you get more artifacts if you do? Yup. But if it's not worth your time, don't do it. I happened to have a lot of free time this weekend. The last weekend Epic, I was out of town hanging out with friends and I think I participated in one of the Feats.

    Do what you want to do. If you want to try to see if you can make the leaderboards, have fun with it. If you don't, that's cool, too. There's room in Glitch for everyone but I don't see why we need to trash the people who make the effort to grind. Let them play the way they enjoy playing, and you can play the way you enjoy playing, and I'll play the way I enjoy playing, and life goes on.
    Posted 45 days ago by Aliera Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Pickle Juice. I totally get your frustration with the leaderboards. It's FUN to see your name and especially your avatar up there! I was briefly in the top 5 for the previous sparkly donation feat, mostly because I'd accumulated over 35K sparkly in and SDB, and it was so exciting I took a screenshot to keep! I ended that feat with 3 sparkly rocks to my name.

    BUT. I'm here, playing Glitch because I find the game and players lovely and whimsical and relaxing and, well FUN. For each of the feats, I've quickly discovered where the line between fun and grinding was for me and then designed a participation scheme that focused on fun. I made up my mind to be content with 'I participated and I had FUN.' For the street visit part, I left packages with a punny message, but I also took the time to generate a bit of iMG on each street as well, even if the butler was full. Street visits are something I enjoy immensely, and the interactions generated things for me to give to butlers so I had a lot of fun and never felt like I was grinding. I generated some iMG for over 200  people in the weekend hours I had available to play and I am more thrilled by that than seeing my name on the leader list somewhere.

    If you change your mind about participating in the feats, perhaps you can take an approach like mine, that focuses on what you enjoy in the game too!
    Posted 45 days ago by Frogger The Mad Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I just assumed the leaderboard was a place for people to show off their autism..."

    I just wanted to join the others who have objected to this ignorant and offensive comment. 
    Posted 45 days ago by Wrong Way Subscriber! | Permalink
  • LOL, "sour grapes" much?
    Posted 45 days ago by Janitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Don't think anyone's a botter. I met some of the people on the leaderboard at VS and they stopped to say hi or give random kindness to replenish other people's energy.
    But if you wanna go there, there are plenty of us who never stood a chance and never will. People who work, people who live in different time zones for whom the feats *always* start very late or very early while they're asleep (unless they decide not to or have a different schedule), people with a limited bandwidth, people with some visual issues... It takes dedication and method, and a certain degree of obsession to get to the top but also plain luck.
    I put a lot more time and effort in this feat day than in the previous one and got the exact same rewards. Not really worth it. However, I made plenty of new friends, got closer with some people as we supported each other and it was great. Exhausting, a bit crazy but awesome in its own way. I think if you're only doing this for the rewards or the 'glory' you're going to be disappointed. It's supposed to be fun first and foremost.
    Posted 45 days ago by Apolline Subscriber! | Permalink