Topic

Follow-the-leader mining in Ajaya Bliss

I never liked mining throughout beta. I would spend the least amount of time doing it as possible--I hated it. It was boring. Stand in one place and whack on a rock over and over again. Oooh, fun <sarcasm>. 

After the co-op mining rewards were recently increased to the point of making group mining actually worthwhile, I tried out Ajaya Bliss and loved it! It was like a party in there with everyone having so much fun, and the mining was no longer repetitive and boring because a single rock would be finished off in one whack, and then I could go bouncing around, searching for the next rock, or chatting with the rest of the party-goers. 

A new style of mining has emerged today, because someone figured out the order in which the sparkly rocks regenerate. This means that everyone knows exactly which rock will spawn next, and there is no longer any reason to jump around and be on the look-out in between rocks. The place doesn't seem like a party any more--the "leader", who has the list on hand, tells everyone which rock to go to next. Everyone goes to that area. Then, they all stand there and wait, motionless, until the rock regenerates. They are then told which rock to move on to next, and off they go. If you go to a different rock, you are chastised. It seems alot less fun now--I liked it better when it was more chaotic. Now, it is once again just a bunch more of the same: stand in one spot mining for a little bit, then stand in another pre-ordained spot waiting. No thought involved--just go where the leader tells you to and stand there, and don't go out of line or you'll be yelled at.

I was disturbed by something someone said to me today, which is what prompted me to write this: I am a level 2 miner. I mine VERY slowly. I tried doing the follow-the-leader thing properly many times. I went where I was told. I waited... but it was hard to see exactly when the rock regenerated because a huge number of people were all standing right in front of where the rock appeared, blocking my view... The best sign that it was there was when others started to mine. So, I frantically try to hit the rock, succeeding towards the end when most everyone had already started. I got 1 to maybe 10 bonus chunks with around 30 people mining. This is pitiful. Even more pitiful is that my slow mining time meant that I was still mining that first rock after everyone else had finished it, moved on to the next rock, and finished that one off too. So, I get one whack in on the first rock, get a handful of bonus chunks out of it, and everyone else gets to finish off 2 rocks in the same time. I realized this was a waste of my time, so whenever 2 rocks spawned next to eachother I would move to the second one (which the group would be moving to in a few seconds), and start there so I could begin my excruciatingly slow mining in time to actually get some benefit from the other players when they arrived and helped me. Still, I only got one whack in while everyone else finished off two whole rocks, but at least I could get 50 bonus chunks instead of 1 to 10. 

I was yelled at for doing this (along with around 2 other people that were doing the same). When I explained why I was doing it, I was told that low level miners should go mine somewhere else! Unbelievable! As a history lesson to everyone: these new high co-op benefits were implemented specifically to benefit low level miners, because people were complaining that it was unfair for a high level miner to come by and finish off a whole rock that a lower level miner was slowly working on, only giving the low level miner 1 bonus chunk in the process, but depleting the whole rock before they could even get their second swing in. The bonuses are higher for low level miners: it makes sense for them to want to co-mine, and no one should tell them that they should mine by themselves if they can't keep up with the "big-boys". This is not the welcoming and inclusive atmosphere of Glitch that I'm used to.

I can't wait until I get through Better Learning V so I can learn the other mining skills and be able to mine a decent amount of rock by myself, without having to rely on the help of people with that attitude.

Tl;dr: Sheep following a leader around to specific regions where rocks are pre-known to respawn is less fun, and the draconian rule of "play my way or the highway" will turn off alot of players, especially low level ones that aren't benefiting unless they are one of the first to start a rock.

Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • no, not "end of argument". neat sidestep btw.

    there are no rules for conduct. it's still selfish. there's room in society all kind of perfectly legal selfishness and it doesn't stop being bad just because there aren't codified rules against it.

    you have a cluster of 8 people trying their best to help each other out and have roughly equal success in some endeavour, and 1 person gaining the maximum benefit from that cooperation without giving anything back, ever.

    you can try to sidestep that, and pretend the bonuses don't exist when they do, or pretend that the reason the person was there had nothing to do with the bonuses, or that the purpose of their strategy wasn't to maximize those bonuses [if it wasn't, staying on the same rock as the others and taking a swing would reach the same outcome]. 

    btw, the efficiency seemed anything but antisocial to me. since people didn't have their fingers constantly occupied jumping and searching for the new rock, there was a lot more talking and discussion going on while people were still mining at the same rate.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One issue I see raised in the original post is unkind words, but that might be secondary and I see better places to discuss it.

    Another issue I see is some people saying that some other people's ways of mining are spoiling their fun, and those others saying that the first ones are spoiling their fun, and each side accusing the other of rudeness, thoughtlessness, selfishness, obtuseness and various other imperfections.

    That seems to me a curious way to behave, for anyone who is seeking consideration for his concerns from people whose behavior is distressing him, so I'm not sure that anyone is. However if anyone is seeking consideration for your concerns, I have some ideas for you.
    Posted 15 months ago by Ferond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "neat sidestep btw"

    why thank you, I wasn't aware I had sidestepped but your appreciation is appreciated

    "you can try to sidestep that"

    erm...I think I just addressed that one

    " and pretend the bonuses don't exist when they do, or pretend that the reason the person was there had nothing to do with the bonuses"

    I'm not really big on pretending, hang on I'll give it a go now *closes eyes and pretends*...nope it doesn't do much for me, how about you?

    "btw, the efficiency seemed anything but antisocial to me"

    Yes, you've made that very clear ...a few times now.....

    Two viewpoints, two ways of playing the game. that's life.

    Play on! (oh hang on, was that a sidestep too?!)

    =)
    Posted 15 months ago by Morticia Addams Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Main issue is player base getting bigger and bigger. And resources in mines getting simply not sufficient to cover all that want to mine.

    Other part of the problem is that everyone tells - mining is very rewarding. Mine rock sell to vendors - pure profit. This is true and proved. But little wrong for me.

    So to counter the problem there are several directions:
      - make mining less rewarding.
      - make other activities more rewarding.
      - make resources in mines harder to exhaust and faster to spawn.
      - adjust vendors prices for basic rock types.

    There are other implications in all this. There have to be a balance in main currant flow. There have to be stable currant soakers, so there are not so much currants in players. And so and so...
    Posted 15 months ago by Lilla My Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "resources in mines getting simply not sufficient to cover all that want to mine."

    i haven't found that at all. i don't mine in ajaya anymore, since earthshakers and mining 4 don't work very well there.

    here's the thing... there are tons of resources in the mines, and there are tons of mines.

    first, there's always a ton of un-mined Dullite in Ilemenkie, even at the busiest times. At the highest level of mining, the chunks start to become less and less relevant and the gem drops become more and more important. it gets to the point where mining Dullite increases Earthshaker efficiency and increases your Gem drop total because you spend more time mining and less time running past Dullite. it's awesome. People get into this "all sparkly all the time" mindset that is often self defeating.

    secondly, there are mines in Groddle Heights, Alakol, Andra, Kajuu etc. most of these see very little traffic but represent a lot of untapped potential.

    thirdly, mining is a GRIND. it is great early on where you want to speed skills and buy a big house, but later on people will just mine in short bursts whenever they need to pay for something or they will pursue other, less grindy activities, like Remote Herdkeeping. this was true of both the Beta and even the Alpha, despite the short play windows diminishing the effectiveness of Gardening and Herdkeeping.

    lastly, as more people mine, the more people end up colliding together while mining and the bigger the bonuses get. so the activity scales well. in this respect, and getting back to the OP, Ajaya Bliss is a microcosm of the mines as a whole.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "you have a cluster of 8 people trying their best to help each other out and have roughly equal success in some endeavour, and 1 person gaining the maximum benefit from that cooperation without giving anything back, ever."

    There is a way around this.  Alternate the rocks you mine with your efficient group so there is one rock always free for those who don't want to join your group.  That way the solitary player gets no help bonus, the efficient miners don't feel exploited and everybody gets to use their preferred method of game play.
    Simples!
    Posted 15 months ago by DramaticHamster Subscriber! | Permalink
  • DramaticHamster, the efficient miners end up with half as many chunks in that scenario, and the exploiter ends up with even more chunks, although it takes them a little longer and more energy to finish.

    it is the most crappy of the two crappy choices that i mentioned previously.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm pretty sure i remember being there at this occasion (unless theres other people saying "low level miners shouldn't be here" despite the fact that the longer mine time benefits what you get from co-op mining more). I do my part fighting past "can't find item" errors on the usual rocks to get my 5-10 chunks and then mine the second rock if two appear at once to make up for the low normal chunk amounts. It seems as if a significant number of others can get through that menu to the mine command quicker.
    Overall though it seems that doing it this way is more of a benefit to the group than not being there at all. If i had a mining time of around 5 seconds then it wouldn't make sense to go to the second rock first, but since its 13 seconds it doesn't use up the rock before the majority of people run off from the first.
    Posted 15 months ago by Hobo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mining is not a GRIND. Some people like to do that. I like to do that. I like to make powders and stuff. Earth Shakers are not efficient if you do not have enough rocks around.

    Sure you can find alot beryl and dullite, but sparkly is pretty scarce. Sadly sparkly is main ingredient for most powers and this is problem.

    Main reason i will learn other skills like cooking or animal stuffs is to make food and drinks to make my mining self sustaining and will not spend currants for them. 

    For most of my time here i have not gotten to any street projects or rook attacks. I'm simply not interested in them.

    People playing here are very different. Player styles are very different. Lets not assume all of them are the same.
    Posted 15 months ago by Lilla My Subscriber! | Permalink
  • one thing that might help is if the group waited for all the miners complete their mining actions on the first rock before starting up on the second rock. that way even the slower miners would get a mining action in on every single rock, which is even better than the free-for-all where no matter what the slower miners won't get to the second rock before it is gone.

    the issue with this is that the people leading the mining group, at least when i visited, weren't even willing to keep the group slightly to one side so that people with difficulty picking out the occluded rock as it reappears could see it better. if they won't make even that minor change, i doubt they'd wait for everyone to reach the second rock before starting.

    there is some potential [mutually beneficial] self-interest tho, as the more people who make it to mine the second rock increases the overall bonuses and waiting on the slower players would increase the bonus.

    this pisses me off, because the people leading the organized mining groups don't seem to be accommodating at all, when things would work best if everyone tried to accommodate each other instead of this self-righteous "don't tell me how to play" baloney.

    as much as i think the mooching tactic is selfish and unfair, it isn't like the mining groups are doing everything they can to encourage participation either.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I believe efficiency is terribly important and so the most logical way to play is to exploit the behavior of others to provide the maximum benefit to myself.
    Posted 15 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I get massive tickle to start a group named "Mine moochers" or something like that. :D
    Posted 15 months ago by Lilla My Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic: you have absolutely no clue what I was saying, do you? First of all, I was complaining about 1 to 10 chunks, not 1 to 30. In fact, most of the time it was 1, 2, or 3 chunks. 10 was rare, and I never got 30 because I wasn't fast enough through all the confusion of 30 bodies standing in front of the rock... OH! That's where you got the number 30! I meant there were 30 people there! If 30 people are helping you, you should not be averaging 3 bonus chunks. That is what is pathetic. Not only that, but it's very irritating to watch everyone around you finish off 2 complete rocks while you only get one whack on a single rock. One whack = 5 regular chunks, and 3 bonus chunks because I'm slow equals 8 chunks total out of 2 entire rocks. I bet all the people that think it's rude and selfish of me to start on the 2nd rock rather than help them on the first rock are getting WAY more than that. Higher level players are suppose to be happy to help out lower level players, not expect them to sacrifice themselves for the good of the higher level players.

    Second of all, my absolute, number one, main point, and the reason I started this thread: I was very disturbed by the rudeness of the players there. You, Striatic, are only adding to this with your posts here. Being attacked by another player while trying to choose the best strategy for yourself is very disconcerting, and can potentially drive new, sensitive players away from the game entirely! I've left plenty of online multiplier games after only playing them for a few minutes or hours because the other players were rude. We're supposed to be welcoming, not driving people away with our own selfishness and sense of entitlement and superiority. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Although I was never attacked, I'm feeling that I do better in smaller groups, as when the groups are say 7 or more per rock, the rocks get mined so fast that I'm spend too much time waiting for the to regenerate. 
    Posted 15 months ago by MeherMan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We encourage gameplay in Glitch in all forms, but do not feel it is fair to engage in personal attacks, or attacks on groups engaging in creative gameplay.

    The community in Glitch is so strong, and constantly evolving new practices and methods to try to cooperate (and in some cases hinder cooperation). This is fine. But please attempt to respect all Glitches, regardless of their style of play or your opinion of it, and remember any abuse can be reported in game by clicking the player name in chat and selecting the Block/Report Abuse link, for consideration by us.

    UPDATED:Clarified abuse report process
    Posted 15 months ago by Araldia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just want to say that my experience today was quite different- everyone was jumping around and having a chaotic good time. People were helpful (someone repaired my pick for free, someone dropped food for everyone, etc.) and accommodating (I'm still at level 2 Mining and did not get yelled at, I felt welcomed).

    I guess it just depends on who's there... maybe we should put "Be Nice" signs everywhere. ;)

    ...although, with more players coming in, maybe we do need more high-resource areas to mine?
    Posted 15 months ago by Zurin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Araldia, is there a way now to report abuse directly, or is it still through filling out a bug report or IM'ing a dev?

    --EDIT: you edited your post to explain this. Thank you! I'm very happy to see that option added, although I hope I never have to use it!
    Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • After reading half the posts above, writing my response above, leaving for work, then reading the rest of the responses during a break at work, I have the following new things to say:

    @striatic has attacked me personally in multiple posts and called me out as the sole person who is being rude and selfish. In reality, he has mis-read or mis-understood every single thing I said in my original post, and also made assumptions about my motives that are completely, flat-out wrong. As such I feel that I have to correct him and explain myself a little better. I'll probably miss something here since he said so many wrong things about me, but I'll try to address as many as I can remember:

    1) I already pointed out in another post a few posts above this one that he mis-read my original post: I was getting 1 to 10 bonus chunks, not 30. I would have been ecstatic with 30! He seems to have felt that I was being ridiculous for not thinking that 30 bonus chunks was good. Well, that's not what I was thinking. I was thinking 3 bonus chunks is not good. See my above post for more details.

    2) I was not the only person jumping ahead to the 2nd rock, despite Striatic explicitly saying that I was. In fact, my original post states that there were around 2 other people doing the same (maybe 3). I was just the one person that decided to politely explain why I was doing it so others would understand a low-level miner's situation and see that I wasn't doing it to be rude or selfish. 

    3) Striatic seems to believe I am unwilling to help other players and am purposely mooching off of them. If you know anything about me you know that is extraordinarily laughable. I carefully considered all of the following concerns before choosing to skip ahead to the 2nd rock:

    Concern #1: players skipping ahead to the 2nd rock finish it off faster, so other players don't get a chance to mine it:

    The main issue here is difference in mining level. It would indeed be rude for a high level miner to skip ahead to the next rock, because they would quickly deplete the rock before other players get there, and also get large bonuses from the other players without contributing large bonuses to them, which they (as high level miners) are fully capable of doing. A low level miner such as myself can only hit a single rock once in the time it takes the entire group to completely finish off two rocks. I've said this before, but this is key, so I'm repeating it again. In addition, pay very close attention next time you mine a rock and notice that the rock only diminishes in size after you have completed a mining action. A rock will only begin to be used up when the miner is completely finished whacking at it. In the mean time, any other players can jump in and start mining and get full benefits from the full sized rock before it begins to be diminished. It takes so long for a level 2 miner to complete a single whack, that even if they start on the 2nd rock while other higher level players are still completing the first rock, the whack won't be finished until well after the higher level players have arrived and finished off the rock all by themselves. Therefore, my starting on the 2nd rock ahead of time has zero net effect on the lifetime of the rock. I really considered this one carefully, because I didn't want to be a jerk by taking away other people's ability to mine that rock. The combined facts that low level miners mine slow as all heck, and that 30 people whacking on the same rock all at once makes it disappear long before a low level miner can finish one whack, makes it so that low-level miners starting a rock early has absolutely no real effect on the lifetime of the rock and other player's ability to get there in time. The only actual effect is psychological. "Hey! You're stealing my rock!" 

    Concern #2: Skipping ahead to the next rock means that you are being selfish, forcing other players to help you while you never help them, and stealing all the bonus chunks for yourself without contributing to others.

    If you're a high level miner, yes, this is true. If you're a low level miner: the most you could ever contribute to a single player while helping mine is one chunk, because you mine so slowly that you can only hit a rock once while the entire group has finished off 2 whole rocks. So, in the worst case scenario (the skipper only ever mines if they are the absolute first person to start mining, and never mines otherwise): each other player misses out on 1 bonus chunk per 2 rocks (on average: 1/2 of a chunk lost in bonuses per rock--well, actually this is only true if the low level player started dead last, and helped everyone. In reality the average chunks missed is going to be much, much lower, and pretty close to zero). This is miniscule compared to the number of bonus chunks a low level miner is missing when that can only work on 1 of the 2 rocks present, and it is difficult to get in early on the first rock. I repeat: I can only mine 1 of the 2 rocks. My mining is too slow to mine both. So I have a choice: mine the first rock and get little reward while contributing very little to the other players, or mine the second rock first and get high reward, while having almost no effect on the other players (except, the psychological one).

    Conclusion: When I am a high level miner I will be happy to play the follow-the-leader-do-these-rocks-in-order game like everyone else (until I get bored... which won't take long). As a low level player, it doesn't make sense to do this, and skipping ahead doesn't really hurt anyone. In order to avoid inflicting psychological pain on others, however, when I skip ahead from now on I will wait until the group begins to move toward the second rock to begin mining. I would have done that earlier, but there were other players that were skipping ahead too and they started mining right away, so I mined with them to help them out. From now on I will not help them, so I won't offend the larger group.
    Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I get so tired of seeing people say "Don't tell me any rules to follow in Ajaya" while at the same time telling everyone else that THEY can't co-op mine together because its boring.  It seems kinda hypocritical

    ETA:  Both sides are really making the same point.  They want their play style to be accepted and respected.  Striatic is saying that by jumping ahead to the next rock and getting all the bonus without ever contributing a bonus to anyone else seems unfair (and I agree), but I also agree that telling people they have to co-op mine is unfair.  For those who do not like co-op mining, it seems like for better or worse that is what will be happening in Ajaya Bliss.  You don't have to mine together at all, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to continue to go into Ajaya and get angry about how they mine there when you could get even more sparkly in different places (Alakol, Heights, etc).
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Laurali: I like co-op mining. The argument here is about different styles of co-op mining. I agree that people that want to solo mine should not go to Ajaya Bliss. If you want sparkly to mine by yourself, there are tons of untouched rocks throughout the region outside of Ajaya.
    Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Laurali I don't think the issue here is whether or not to co-op mine. That is a different (and extremely long) thread. If you're in Ajaya, I think it's safe to say you'd better expect co-op. Otherwise you will be severely disappointed.

    @everyone:
    That said, I think the main issue is what an individual finds fun. I personally have a blast when its total chaos in Ajaya. We're all bouncing around like popcorn and it cracks me up. I work all day and want the release and downright silliness Chaos-Ajaya has. I can see the draw of the organized mining and when that's happening I take my leave as it is too "work-like" for me. I'll come back later and hope it is in chaos mode but if it isn't, no hard feelings.

    I tried the organized "Now we move here" style and I think I just left before people got rude because I was with Shepherd in starting on the second rock. It wasn't to be rude or selfish. It was just the logical choice for me not having level 4 skills. I tried repeatedly to get in on the first rock before making this choice. After not getting more than 10 bonus chunks on at least 6 or 7 rounds, why would I stay in the way that is least beneficial to me? I wasn't trying to steal from anyone and (especially when its chaotic) have no problem being the person who gets no bonus chunks occasionally. I do, however, have a problem with controlling atmospheres and never getting much benefit from something that becomes less than fun. That's why I leave when the attitude shifts to work instead of play. I'm always up for the party atmosphere though!

    tl;dr: If you don't like the atmosphere when you're there, leave. Come back another time. The general population of Ajaya changes often throughout the day. Whatever your style, you'll find it at some point.

    Remember: This is a GAME. It should be fun. Whatever that is for you.
    Posted 15 months ago by Avery♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • People just don't want to be told how to be a Glitchen. That's why I always says follow your innerGlitch and all will be reveled. 

    Also, it's unrealistic to expect people to follow instructions when there are 55 people in AJ doin' the ant-be-me-boogie. 
    Posted 15 months ago by MeherMan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Let's pretend I'm one of the 90% of the Glitch players that never read forums.
    I go to Ajaya Bliss to mine.
    I see a shiny rock, think: "nice, let's start on that one". And before I know it people get angry at me, while I have no idea what I am doing wrong. I feel bad. I think: "Bunch of elitist jerks, spoiling my fun while I just want to mine.".
    Let's introduce gearscore. Calculate max amount of gain from chunks for least amount of energy. Same with food. Let's gather epix. And then complain that there is no new end-game content and you are bored. Let's write guids which everyone should read before they ever set foot in Mount Hijal - eeeh Ajaya Bliss.
    Blergh. No thanks, not for me.

    Relax. The game will still be here tomorrow. Do you hurry in real life towards your old age as well? Only focusing on the tomorrow and future? What about the NOW?

    Conga lines can be fun, coop mining as well, but lonely mining a rock... well as is pointed out, it is not the most profitable for someone to do so. But why should it be the most profitable? I settle for "ok" too.

    I think in a while the dust will settle. The area will grow bigger, people will just need to realize there is lots of ore in other regions as well. Not only the solo-miner, also the Conga liner.

    Do you both really want to stay frustrated and annoyed with eachother or do you both just want to enjoy the game? Staying angry and frustrated and annoyed is only impacting yourself, not the other.  (blabla Dr Phil "forgive yourself" etc kind of talk).

    I propose a hug. With your teddybears, they need it, they get sad because of your emotional moods.

    Edit: Avery834, I agree about Chaos = fun (most of the time) and efficiency, max output, rules and regulations sound too much like work. (Now I know why I got an itchy feeling during all this talk about efficiency... add to that "declarable" and " billlable" and you got work.
    Posted 15 months ago by Miriamele Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, anyone else got the song: "Follow da leader" in his head when reading the topic titel?
    Posted 15 months ago by Miriamele Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was every day in Ajaya in beta. It was fun. Friendly, peaceful atmosphere. Noting compared to amount of players now. Last night i teled there and faced 28+ players. 

    So before we mined in party jumping around, writing up, left, right, top to get all interested to to mine together. Bonuses was good it was fun. We even leaved earthshakers, humbabas, no-no at ground. Even there was one with sneezing powder. Usual volume of players was upto ten maybe 15. Some preferred single mine others party.

    I tried several times to join the chaos. First it is hard to mine rock that spawns, because of volume of players. Second rock depleted in one mine cycle which is waste of time practically. Third lag is enormous if you use flash on linux, because of no hardware GPU acceleration. And so and so...

    I have nothing against all this. Right now i use Ajaya only for tele point and then i simply leave to mine elsewhere. 

    It is simply sad to see so useful place for miners to turn into this. At least for me. As others sayed everyone have different definition for fun.

    Peace and have fun.
    Posted 15 months ago by Lilla My Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well atm im a lvl 2 miner and yesterday i did go to Bliss as soon as i got there i knew way to many and would go back to doing the mine rounds as it would be faster at that point with my mining lvl. as long as i was one of the first to hit the rock i would get better then decent extra chunks. but if i came in slightly slower it was back down to the 1-10 extra which was fine. as soon as i got in i knew i would just be getting one pack full to sell then return to rounds.
     
    maybe ill go back there once i get my mining higher or when friends invite while the numbers are much lower in there.

    not trying to be trolly or incite anything just adding my experience there.

    But i did enjoy it better when everyone would just jump around and first come first served rather then being told which rock i Had to click on. but when it did go to follow the leader type play i was close to full so i happily left and went and did my own thing met old friends and made new one in the process.

    So all in all good times.
    Posted 15 months ago by Karma Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would argue that the chaos that used to be ajaya wasn't true co-op mining because for the most part it was every player for themselves. I personally hated having to constantly be pushing buttons so I could frantically run around in the hopes that I might get a slice of rock, and I certainly wasn't benefitting from bonus chunks.

    I think the argument really is about co-op or not because the way it was nobody was working together. Even if you don't agree with me, its just as bad to tell people not to follow the leader as it is to tell someone they have to follow the leader, so this thread about not mining by following the leader could also be seen as telling people how to play.

    When we do follow the leader not only does everyone benefit but without constantly having to push buttons to run around pointlessly I have met SOOOOOO many new people and had so many silly conversations cause the keyboard is now feed up. I also no longer feel this competitive rush to get to the rocks first, and on top of it all I'm quadrupling my chunks
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Its all about how you choose to view it. If you choose to see it as boring it always will be. But if you choose instead to start a conversation, or join everyone jumping to get the achieve, or race cubimals while waiting, start a conga line, do a fashion show where each time you have to wait everyone changes outfits as fast as they can, or even see if you can get every glitch to stand on top of each other so it only looks like one person maybe you realize its not as boring as you think
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not everyone benefits from follow-the-leader. Nor does everyone benefit from chaotic-jumping. You just have to find which works for you best and choose to go to Ajaya when there are more people working in your style (if you are in the mood for co-op mining).
    Posted 15 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If "follow the leader" is the particular scenario in play when you tp into ajaya you don't have to leave or play it their  way if you don't want.  You can start a new "scenario" by doing something different like trying to mine alone or going to the next rock.  It takes a bit of courage to be the first to do that when there is a group there but someone else might come along and also play your way. Lots of low level miners  are tp'ing into the room and might stay a little longer if they see a A new "scenario" emerges out of that.   Lots of low level miners are tp'ing into the room and might stay a little longer if they see a scenario they want to be a part of.  

    The only thing that is certain is change.
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe the devs can make the rocks in Ajaya respawn randomly? That way everyone will jump around to find the next rock instead of following a pattern.
    Posted 15 months ago by Cherio Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think some of the higher level miners might resent the fact that lower level miners get more benefits without the investment.  For myself, I am now "investing" 5 days into mining 4 even though its not an activity I want to spend much time in.  I'd rather get the soil appreciation and cooking skills done first because that is something I want to follow up with.   I feel I've been pushed into going the distance with the mining skills even though I'm perfectly happy with the slightly slower pace of mining 3.   Sometimes I get extra rock when I'm mining with others and sometimes I don't.  
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • cherio:  good idea - would also be good if sparkly down there wasn't guaranteed.   If there are going to eventually be hundreds of thousands of players you can't have one tiny room with a reputation for being the most profitable.     And if there are such tiny little rooms then people should either have to earn the key for it or be very driven to discover their locations.  After the locations of such places are found they should probably be changed up after a week or two.  It would keep us all on our toes and prevent anyone cultivating too many expectations or demands on other players.
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "If you're a high level miner, yes, this is true. If you're a low level miner: the most you could ever contribute to a single player while helping mine is one chunk, because you mine so slowly that you can only hit a rock once while the entire group has finished off 2 whole rocks."

    this is incorrect. i really do think that your issue primarily stems from a misunderstanding of how the mining bonuses work.

    and, again, mining speed has absolutely nothing to do with it. you seem fixated on mining level and higher level versus lower level but it really has no effect on the bonuses. at least not the negative effect that you claim.

    if it was a free for all, you'd still only get one hit in on a single rock due to slow mining speed. the group would split in two, but the typical population in Ajaya is large enough that splitting the group means that both rocks get removed in the time span of one mining action, at the same time. so in a free-for-all situation you wouldn't be getting both rocks, you'd still only be getting one. this is the primary reason that people try to mine in a single group. it nearly doubles the number of chunks everyone gets.

    also, you say that the most you can contribute is one chunk. this is not true. people get bonuses of 30 even when there are just 8 other miners each performing a single "help mine" action. there is some kind of multiplier effect occurring, whereby each additional helper multiplies the total instead of incrementing it. saying that the most you could contribute is one chunk is just factually incorrect, as you would either be producing a single chunk to be further multiplied, or further multiplying that single chunk.

    the more i read your posts, the less i think you are actually being selfish, despite your actions putting off that appearance and have that effect, mechanically. it seems more likely that a flawed understanding about how mining level and mining action duration interact with coop mining has lead you to adopt mining patterns that have unintended and unconsidered consequences.

    the ideal situation for a low level miner is actually increased cooperation, not increased chaos. if the cooperation level increased to the point where the higher level miners waited for the lower level miners to catch up, the lower level miners could vastly increase their output at no penalty to the higher level miners. increased chaos actually renders that possibility extremely unlikely.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have a suggestion, based on my experience, that might make everybody about as happy as possible with cooperative mining. Sometimes in Ajaya I miss out on a rock because of the dreaded "itemstack" error. When that happens, I jump to the next (if another has already spawned) and then I wait for the group to start arriving at it before I mine. That works best for me because "helps" seem to be counted by the number of people who start both after and during my mining action. So you (of any level) could do this too, if you want.

    Nobody loses. Everybody benefits. Yay team!
    Posted 15 months ago by Aleph Zero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hate that error. And I usually do the same, Munchma, if I realize I won't get anything extra at all for mining the one everyone is on due to the error or slowness on my part.
    Posted 15 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I find it a lot more fun when you can organize and work as a TEAM! It allows people to be more creative via that leadership!

    EDIT: Also there are plenty of other places to mine is you feel like soloing it.
    Posted 15 months ago by DanielS Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Co-Op mining in Ajaya Bliss is pretty simple. 

    The more people that mine the same rock, the better the rewards.
    BUT you don't make as much ore if you join the chain later. So, if you can't start mining the rock with everyone else then go to the next rock and WAIT for a few people to finish the first rock.

    Having low mining skill doesn't hurt at all. I have mining 1 and I consistantly get around +50 additional ore. Just follow the leader.

    I think it's a really fun alternative to clicking on a rock by yourself forever. Unfortunately, if every starts mining whatever rocks they feel like in Ajaya Bliss it ruins it for everyone else. Some people seem to be confused, I thought this might clear things up.

    The big problem with someone like the OP here jumping ahead to the next rock is that as soon as people see he is mining they'll join in and mess it up for the group. It's not too hard to wait a few seconds for the faster miners to finish the first rock. It just reduces the chaos. There is beauty in a well organized mining team. When a low skill miner jumps ahead he still only gets his one crummy mining action in. If that's all you want then there is a ton of rock outside of ajaya and I really can't understand why it bothers you so much that people would want to mine in an organized, cooperative fashion.
    Posted 15 months ago by Robert A. Heineken Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have just come from Ajaya...It's awful..I agree with everything  Shepherdmoon  has said. I am level 3 miner and I can't get a look in anywhere on one single rock when I go down there now. And to be told where to mine and which rock to mine next is simply NOT ON!!!...If we don't like how they do it..then we can go mine else where..I don't think SO..We have a right to mine and play anywhere we want in the game and I for one will not be dictated to as to which rock I mine next or where I should go mine if I don't like it.!! Ajaya is for everyone... not just the people who want to co-op mine, it's a place for all and not all are going to want to join in with the follow the leader group mining. They have no right to tell us to go mine else where if we want to mine on our own!!!  It isn't about mining on our own, its about being able to mine..Period!! I prefer when others help mine as it's faster and more rewards..but..now in Ajaya it's virtually impossible to mine anything at all.!!  Because there is way too many at one rock..It's ludicrous. We can all still group mine if we didn't all go for the same rock at the same time, then things would be more evened out and everyone would be able to mine and share!  
    Posted 15 months ago by Cryztal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I saw both sides - a few days ago I wandered into Ajaya when it was chaos mode and had a real blast. Last night I went again and it was organized - too organized (for me anyways). Before I had even made my way down from the door someone said, "why are people breaking away from the group?" (or something to that effect)
     
    Now they weren't addressing me personally, and I took no great offense, but I did note the change in mood of the place - one player barking out orders, the others following en masse, and non of the fun platform-y bouncing around. No big deal, I wasn't much of a miner before, so I can go back to non-mining except for when I need powder and that's fine.
     
    I would point out though that there is no guarantee that everyone who enters Ajaya knows how the rock bonuses work. Calling someone rude for mining solo in there seems way out of line. I remember being a newb and having to discover that rocks behaved differently from trees, pigs etc. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Rock Opera Jr Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Cryztal, calm down and take a deep breath. I was a newb like you too. What's the problem?

    If there isn't a rock:
    1)Stand where everyone else is standing.
    2)Double-click your pick until a rock spawns.

    If there is a rock:
    1)Let everyone finish mining it. You can jump in if you want, but you won't get decent rewards.

    If there is more than one rock:
    1)Go to the rock with fewer people and wait for some of the people to finish mining the first rock and then start mining the second.

    Simple. It works out best for everyone. There is no logical argument to be doing anything else. No one in there is trying to be a jerk.
    Posted 15 months ago by Robert A. Heineken Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Robert I am not a newbie...nor will I be told how or where to mine! 
    Posted 15 months ago by Cryztal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Cryztal, please, if you're going to deliberately annoy the majority of the people in the room, then can you really expect them to enjoy your company?
    Posted 15 months ago by Robert A. Heineken Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Robert I have never annoyed anyone...I simply leave!!!  And I do not and never have deliberately annoyed anyone  ... in or out of game play!!  This conversation was and is not .. nor has it ever been about anyone enjoying my company..It is about the mining in Ajaya Bliss and what people think of it! 
    Posted 15 months ago by Cryztal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To be clear, I don't care what you or anyone does down there, I'm just arguing that logic is against not following the leader.

    When I read your posts, even now, it really sounds like you're pretty annoyed that people don't like the way you mine, or I have I completely misread your posts? No one is forcing you to mine in the same order, it's just annoying when people don't, and occasionally someone will probably tell you so. Do what you want though, it's a game.
    Posted 15 months ago by Robert A. Heineken Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Time to go aganist the grain lol . See u in bliss
    Posted 15 months ago by AtOddz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have just come out of Ajaya and it is the first time I have seen this "new" organised way of mining. I have to say I found it ok but boring after a while so left. But I did see ALOT of people shouting at others on where they should and should not be mining. I did join in with the group and was happy to reap the benefits. But that was me.
     I fully AGREE with Sheperdmoon and how she feels. It is NOT ok to shout at someone else because of how he/she chooses to play glitch. If she is expected to suck it up then i'm afraid so are "YOU" No one is EVER, ever going to be happy with how some people play. It is about time people learnt this lesson. If it is not mining then it is tree/killing/planting. 
    Some times the hamster needs to get of the wheel!!! :)

    Cryztal You were there the same time as me. I agree with you as you see. I have to add if any one did want to mine any other way there was no chance in hell in doing so. As soon as a rock appeared it was obliterated in seconds and im also mining 3 :(
    Posted 15 months ago by Misha Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've gotta say one more thing: I enjoy cooperative mining. I like gathering with the mob at one rock. I don't expect everyone in the room to join me/us. It doesn't "ruin everything" for everybody else if someone hits a rock solo, it's just one less rock for the mob. Big deal. And if it splits the mob, so what? It's.a.game. I don't get my fun by telling other people how to play. There's nothing wrong with reminding everyone in the room that we get max bonuses by striking together, and there's everything wrong with expecting anyone in this game to take orders.
    Posted 15 months ago by Aleph Zero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • here here Munchma :)
    Posted 15 months ago by Misha Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic: I think I understand the way bonuses work better than you think I do. According to Stoot, each person that starts mining after you adds one bonus chunk to your pile. If they complete their mining action before you and start again, you get yet another bonus chunk. The "multiplicative" effect you mention is due to this, and it's why low level miners will get better bonuses from a single mining action. The high level miners will whack the rock two or more times to the one time the lower level miner whacks it, adding more chunks to the low level miner's pile than the total number of people mining. If there is another multiplicative effect on top of this, I don't know about it, as no dev has mentioned its existence. 

    I can only base my strategy on my direct observations of how many chunks I was getting when doing what I was told (average 3), vs. how many chunks I was getting when I went to the next rock instead (average 50). Other players that are the same level as me have responded here with their experiences, and are seeing the exact same results. I see that this is due purely to how early I am able to start on the rock compared to everyone else. The problem with the follow-the-leader method is that: a) it's difficult to see when a rock has respawned with people standing in front of it, b) it's hard to click on the rock with people standing in front of it: quite often I would accidently IM somebody instead of hitting the rock, and c)  I was getting the item stack error alot--when that happened, it would be impossible to get in on the rock without being dead last, and consequently getting zero bonus.

    During the "chaotic" mode of Ajaya Bliss mining (which wasn't really that chaotic, because most people gravitated to the rock that had the most miners), I was averaging around 20 bonus rocks per whack, which was fine with me. Occasionally I would get 1, and sometimes I would get 60, but it all evened out to be decent overall.... and nobody yelled at me or told me to leave.

    If "follow-the-leader mode" has to be the norm, all problems could easily be fixed by players not standing in front of the rock, as striatic mentioned before. If I could have an equal chance of getting in on the first rock early, I would feel no need to jump to the second one. As it is, this seems like an impossible thing to ask, so I will not mine the first rock with the others (especially as long as the item stack error persists). However, I have absolutely no problem with waiting for others to arrive at the second rock, and think that is definitely the polite thing to do.
    Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink