Topic

Shucking and Upgrades

Something is fantastically awkward in trying to explain the mechanics and benefits for Herbalisim III (optimal shucking abilities for the home or community herb gardener) and Super Seedy Powers (Always get double seeds when shucking herbs). While I understand there is a range of for shucking some herbs and there are two 'groups' of herbs, the fail rate seems unordinarily high when fully upgraded.

Examples (with Herbalisim III and Super Seedy Powers):
Group 1  - A stack of 50 Rubeweed yields 200 seeds, 4 per flower. A stack of 25 yields 100. Shucked one at a time I get 4 seeds per shuck. These are consistent.

Group 2 -  A stack of 50 Purple yields 112 seeds, for an average of 2.24 per flower. Super Seedy Powers seems to be in effect, ensuring the first 100... but is 0.24 really 'optimal shucking'? A stack of 25 yields 56 (0.24) - yes, I am aware both of these results are at the low end of the spectrum but they are also not uncommon. Shucking 25 flowers one at a time yields 14 results at x2, 10 results at x4 and one fail.

I understand a (fairly low) fail rate, I understand the basis of receiving the 2 seeds for Group 2 Herbs *is* the double seeds... but what exactly is 'optimal' in practice for the 4x?

I've started a topic in the FAQ Group as a data gathering exercise to help make sense of some of it. Feel free to participate... but really? What gives?
 

Posted 91 days ago by Wandering Confusion Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • PS the nerf is in, at roughly noon California time.

    It's still more profitable to sell / donate the seeds, just the value is now down to roughly 72c per flower. At roughly 38* flowers per patch that's still a hefty profit (2736c) for expending 90 energy.

    * Roughly 12 flowers are consumed get sufficient seeds to replant
    Posted 90 days ago by Sturminator IX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With no announcement -- truly sucks for anyone that doesn't read random player-created threads. 

    Not cool. 
    Posted 90 days ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With no announcement -- truly sucks for anyone that doesn't read random player-created threads.

    If TS gave a week long warning, would folks send that week in a mad rush growing YC? I bet they would.

    Which is exactly why TS should do the nerf.

    I will say, that I hope TS slows this sort of change down when they go "live". *DO* announce the change a week ahead of time, or at least gradually adjust the odds.
    Posted 90 days ago by Sturminator IX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This time we decided we'd experiment with announcing in advance since many people requested that last time. But … can't please everyone :) 

    You haven't quit tried that yet.

    I mean a second after someone posted in response this thread was just a popular thread for people with their decimals and math...certainly not a thread the many of the forum goers want to read. 

    While a *staff* thread saying exactly what was said in the 1st Stoot post is an announcement everyone who loads forums reads. 

    So....you haven't quite tried out the permutations of having people mad.
    Posted 90 days ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If I understand correctly, the intended design is that: (1) A player with basic skills will, on average, get one seed back for every seed planted. (2) A player with highest skills (but no upgrade) will, on average, get two seeds back for every seed planted. (3) A player with highest skills and upgrades will, on average, get four seeds back for every seed planted. This makes the expected ratio the same for every type of herb.  The growing time for herbs varies, but that's factored into the value of the herbs and seeds rather than the harvest or shucking yields.

    Keeping things even like this results in there being a greater number of paths that players can choose from to achieve goals such as gaining iMG and currants, and that's the goal of changes that are considered to be "nerfs."  I understand why that's necessary, and I'm OK with that, even though I'm one of those who has looked forward to harvesting and shucking my "field of gold" every morning.

    Indeed, I personally enjoy the "hide-and-seek" aspect of finding optimal strategies that turn out to be so optimal that they become considered to be exploits that are then nerfed. Maybe this won't be helpful to most, but I will offer it anyway as a perspective that may make the nerf less painful to a few other players: Consider the search for exploits that will, of course, be nerfed once they are found to be part of a grand collaboration in which we as players work with the game developers to create a game that's not just fun for a while, but fun for a long, long time.

    That being said, I'd vote for TS posting an official announcement and giving, say, 48 hours lead time before the next nerf of this kind -- at least as an experiment.  Sure, it's likely to produce a mad rush as players scramble to avoid losses and grab last benefits, but this *is* beta and it's not like people haven't already gotten big benefits from stuff like this. And an occasional mad rush can be a lot of fun :)
    Posted 90 days ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sturminator IX: "PS the nerf is in, at roughly noon California time."& Saucelah: "With no announcement -- truly sucks for anyone that doesn't read random player-created threads."

    We haven't changed anything yet! As I said, we will announce in advance of the change and even invite feedback on the proposed solutions.

    But, I have learned a lesson and will not say anything in player-created threads :)
    Posted 90 days ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Stoot

    Nothing? Nothing at all? So, whenever you post, it will only by a singe dot, or comma, or a smiley? ;p
    J/k; but it would indeed be much better if such important announcements were kept as staff-created topics and only linked to in player-created topics.
    Posted 90 days ago by Asthner Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, I do like the little hints and previews that pop up in player-created threads!  Would be sad if stootposts were only limited to punctuation :)
    Posted 90 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • SCREW THIS GUY!! f'd it up for everyone that uses yellow crumbs!!
    Posted 90 days ago by Ted Mosby Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We welcome all non-panic inducing comments you care to make in any thread anywhere at any time, Stoot.

    (And personally, I don't mind where you make panic inducing comments.)
    Posted 90 days ago by Raw Toast Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Im getting onion rings o0o0o0o0o0o ...

    AND honeymustard...so there

    ps, whats yellow crumb?  is that cake?
    Posted 90 days ago by ☣ elf ☣ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • TM, I assume you're not being serious, but in case I'm wrong, staff noticed the problem before this thread was made.
    Posted 90 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • stoot: "But, I have learned a lesson and will not say anything in player-created threads :)" 

    :P Hope you're joking. Else I haz a sad.
    Posted 90 days ago by Wynella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here's another approach angle that I'm sure might please a glitch or two... Why change the odds when the bottom line here seems to be profit made when vendoring the seeds?

    Simply call the old seeds "spoiled yellow crumb seeds" and make the new ones half the value when vendored. We'll get more collectible items, everyone's happy. Right? Right?

    P.S.: Stoot, pink elephants? :P
    Posted 90 days ago by Heatseeker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, here's my two cents... 

    This shucks!!! Please don't bring it down to 1.33
    Posted 90 days ago by Berke Subscriber! | Permalink
  • stoot: But, I have learned a lesson and will not say anything in player-created threads :)

    The issue is one of visibility, which I think is a technical issue, rather than a process issue. "Other" games have a page where you can see *all* <company> posts easily. If we'd had this back in the R1 / R2 / R3 announcement / rollout threads, it would have made life much easier for everyone. (One exception -- I'd leave the bugs forum in a separate page)

    P.S. Sorry for jumping the gun!
    Posted 90 days ago by Sturminator IX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In my humble opinion, YC really isn't overpowered. It nets 60k or so in nine hours (I think).
    I can make five times that much in about two thirds the time selling chicken eggs (that said, that's less of a passive strategy and requires being fully engaged in the activity for the entire duration, as well as hundreds of thousands of energy units spent).

    I've really never bothered with it (I did try it once or twice to see what all the hype was about, but couldn't get into it), because it just seems too inefficient for my tastes. I suppose one person weighing against it doesn't do much against the hundreds who are really into this type of thing, but I figured I'd throw this out there anyway.
    Posted 90 days ago by Jus​tin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • JD, do you mean selling eggs to the tool vendor? I may have to try that.
    Posted 90 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Justin: Unfortunately, this is not the case. Yellow nets 200k per hour using guano (not potions, just guano. Potions obviously increase or decrease that based on what you paid.). It's severely "overpowered", though I don't necessarily agree with the solution, it deserves a nerf in some form. I've made too much money on yellow, and so have most of the people I know. I don't think anyone here can claim it doesn't deserve a nerf (without fooling themselves), the outrage is more about how this is handled, announced, and the exact way its going to be nerfed.
    Posted 90 days ago by Ramus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yep. The process is basically to run all of Serious Spice and all of Serious Gas (gas will be the limiting factor, unless things have changed in the last couple of weeks), as well as four or so streets of Serious Eggs. This will take you about three hours.

    It'll make you about 1600 chicken eggs, which, when sold to the tool vendor along with the musicblocks and other junk you got whilst harvesting, will net you roughly 300k.

    Edit, @Ramus: Ah, didn't know whether people used guano or not, or how that really impacted things. Although if you are using guano, it becomes a lot less of a passive strategy since you then have to nibble countless pigs, as well as feed batterflies (what's the per-plot value of YC anyway; the guano needed to pull this off would cost you 60 currants worth of meat per plot).
    Posted 90 days ago by Jus​tin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for the info! I'm definitely adding that to my list (well, starting a list with that at the top) of things to be doing now. :)
    Posted 90 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Bleh, don't nerf the seeds!  Some of us use the seeds and herbs for personal use, instead of making money with them on the market.  Seems like there will still be profit on market though, if people don't undercut others into the ground like they always do, making it more profit to sell to a tool vendor.
    Posted 90 days ago by Serra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Stoot - thank you for explaining the double roll. It goes a little bit to explaining.
    I'm still running my data gathering, but will hold off on the full bit and await a change. I for one am extremely grateful you gave us a heads up (if only cause it saves me math). I personally thought the bug was in the Group 1 herbs (rube / rook / gandy / hairball) because of the consistent rate of return.

    While figuring up the bug-fix, the relative steady return on the Group 1 herbs needs factored in. I can very effectively make a tidy, predictable profit via the other herbs too : )

    I do have a follow-up concern regarding the way all the skills and upgrades knit together, as it seems the combo over-rides each other somehow.
    Posted 90 days ago by Wandering Confusion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh for what it's worth, from my perspective, you can say anything in a player thread.  And you can even nerf without announcement and I wouldn't care.  But the combo of talking about it in a player thread plus promising an announcement and then not making one would not be cool. 

    But since that isn't what happened here, carry on. 

    -----------------
    I agree that YC needs a nerf as things stand.  But it bothers me that right now, a new player can max out animal kinship in a short period of time, and then really never encounter a more lucrative game activity ever again. 

    We have what is sometimes called horizontal progression with the skill system.  As you progress, it reaches a point where power, in our case iMG or currant income, does not really increase so much as diversify.  But with that horizontal system, we have a system of vertical progression -- increasing the energy tank and the like increases expenses without any corresponding increase in income.  QM balances this out a bit, but that is limited whereas the expenses continue to increase as energy increases.  Although energy increases are optional, there's no way to reverse them, and not too many players of any game are interested in or capable or comprehending the math that reveals their personal sweet point. 

    I know my income will still be higher than my expenses.  But with the exception of the yellow crumb discovery, my income rates really haven't changed since last fall -- it's been maxed since about a month or two into the game. 

    Of course, YC didn't really change this.  The discovery simply didn't happen right away, but once it started to spread in popularity (months back), it felt as if I'd finally discovered a way to increase rather than reduce my potential income.  Hence earlier I said I'd rather see more activities that equaled YC's income rather than reduce YC's income to match. 

    Of course, that just means that a min/max character would learn the Herbalism skills immediately after finishing AK, and everything would once again be downhill (income-wise) from there. 

    If you were asking me---you're not but I'll tell you anyway---I see two great solutions off the top of my head.  More automation like Remote Herdkeeping.  Automation allows for an increased payout from greater diversity in skills -- right now I'm either farming YC or brushing foxes, but I can't do both at the same time.  However, I can collect from my feeders before and after that activity.  If more skills had automation at the peak of their skill chain, there would be more things creating "income" in the background while I do whichever activity catches my interest. 

    The other solution I can see are skills with extreme long base learning times that require mastering high end skills from more than one skill category and as such cannot be learned easily early on, are difficult to unlock at all while remaining under cap, and take long enough to learn that new skills might even release in the meantime. 

    I see issues with both ideas.  I'm sure there are more possibilities out there though. 
    Posted 90 days ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also should add, with these last two nerfs, in seems you folks get concerned when all your hardcore players are doing the same repeated activities.  But the hardcore players have always been doing the same repeated activities, whether you noticed or not.  For iMG, it used to be seasoning beans, followed by awesome pot recipes, then donating.  Then basements released, and the route was gathering a bunch of keys then cherry picking the large quoins out of the basements. Then upgrade tickets released, and the route was running the tickets repeatedly. 

    Every nerf will lead to a new repeated activity.  As Justin points out above, now the route for currants will be selling seasoned eggs or beans (or whichever he mentioned) to the tool vendor, just as the hardcore levelers are back to basement dwelling. 
    Posted 90 days ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here's my suggestion: Enjoy the game and the ever evolving road that TS takes us on. :) Find the next loop hole to exploit to make your money/img and enjoy it while it last. I know I find a lot of pleasure being in the know about the latest trend and trying to guess what be next to change. Beta is all about change and trying to get it right; if we keep stuff like this nearly everyone would be a yellow farmer till board. Find fun in the next thing and go easy on Stoot and gang they are working hard to make many people happy. If you are going to criticize or complain at least give them suggestion.  This unfortunately is probably a necessary change.
    Posted 90 days ago by axton Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Justin: Ahh, yes. I wish that were the case. The problem is, yellow is SO profitable that I never nibbled a pig or fed a batterfly. Those of us that were able to profit on yellow had no reason to do anything but yellow, it was so profitable that it paid for the needed ingredients to make more yellow, and that was just a drop in the bucket. I stocked up on guano everytime it was around 60-70 during the rare vendor days and I had 10000+ stocked up. Meat I still buy at 4c from various towers and pay someone 20k to go get me 800 or so guano. I can then take that guano and turn it into 200k in an hour. It's just not a sustainable economy when that much cash is coming in from thin air with no where to go.
    Posted 90 days ago by Ramus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe vendor buyback simply shouldn't be injecting so many currants into the economy.

    I like to think of currants as being a carrier, a medium of exchange. Not an end unto themselves. Or as a lubricant that keeps the social gears moving. Maybe even a hydraulic fluid. Lots of metaphors work somewhat. It can also be a measure of success if thats your thing.

    But why, exactly, does the vendor pay so much for seeds, again?

    (DISCLAIMER- I donate a large amount of yc seeds. I am only about a 6 week old glitch and I'm level 36, so yc has been good to me)
    Posted 90 days ago by Feldspar Gravity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm glad about the nerf. I think it'll do a lot for game balance. I like seeing big changes like this in the game. My moneymaking is done mostly through watching the market, seeing the changes Tiny Speck makes and figuring out how to use them to exploit the market, rather than doing repetitive activities, and for that reason I'm happy to see stuff get shaken up.

    What Sauceleh says about new players getting profitable income streams early on isn't untrue, but it is missing the point (or at least missing a point), and that's the fact that gameplay variation adds more stuff to do, even if that stuff isn't profitable. There are a lot of skills that aren't directly profitable but are time-saving (MG3, teleportation, eyeballery, etc), a lot of skills that are occasionally useful but mostly just entertaining (penpersonship, levitation, etc) and some skills that are almost entirely useless except as a prerequisite (distilling). Yeah, you can make a decent amount of money nibbling piggies and selling the meat to the vendor, and I'm sure some people will do that, but for most of us it's not fun, and adding variation, even unprofitable variation, in the game, adds fun.

    Besides that, if you're playing the game like I do-- with an eye on the economy as a result of recent in-game changes-- what activities are profitable change on a pretty regular basis. Right now it's way more profitable for someone doing basic harvesting activities to wander around collecting gas and bubbles than usual, since demand for those are up so high because of the new potions. Same deal with herb resellers and gandlevery. The assumptions that you're making are based on Glitch as an unchanging game, and shifts in the game economy happen constantly (more constantly than in most MMOs, I think), making it so that even attempts to play the game as profitably as possible change on a regular basis and in a way that makes a variety of skills useful.
    Posted 90 days ago by Pixel Dirigible Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh wow.   I read this, and since it affects purple too I decided to shuck most of my stockpile of purple herb.   It turns out it's really easy to hit Munch instead of Shuck.  I had lots of herbs.  I'm feeling sort of lightheaded now...
    Posted 90 days ago by Sue Chef Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Vendor buyback prices could be dynamically adjusted based on the amount they have bought already. So instead of getting 54c for a ycf seed, vendors could adjust their price down if a lot was sold to them already in the last 24hr period. Either globally or per player. Each vendor could set its own price which would create a whole new dynamic figuring out where to go for the best price.

    To make the logistical aspect more challenging, it should be more difficult (e.g take longer) to create teleportation scripts.
    Posted 90 days ago by Zogje Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would ask that the currant value of yellow seeds be nerfed, rather than the yield when shucking. The chance of getting 0 seeds from a shuck is already irritatingly high for people shucking in small quantities (i.e., people trying to grow the stuff in relatively small amounts), even with Herbalism III and all the upgrades.
    Posted 90 days ago by Pupusas Subscriber! | Permalink
  • " But, I have learned a lesson and will not say anything in player-created threads :)"

    Awww, Stoot, don't draw this conclusion.  :(
    Posted 90 days ago by Meromorphic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • nothing to see here!
    Posted 90 days ago by Roxypop Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Bad idea real bad this isnt far to the people who live off of the currants of the herbs
    Posted 77 days ago by zoey10189st Subscriber! | Permalink
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