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#### ToS breaking with keys

It is perfectly OK, as far as TS is concerned, to register a second account, send a key to your house (firebog, for example) to your first account (who's got a 50k house) and then have access to both herb and crop gardens.
Questions: Am I missing something? If not, any ideas on how to prevent this (if you consider it to be unfair, of course)?

Posted 13 months ago by Electric Wizard | Permalink

### Replies

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- heartNadia, difference is this: I share a house with myself, all trees, crops, herbs, etc. are mine; I share a house with a friend, all trees, crops, herbs, etc. are split between us.
  Anyway, I say we all just way for TS to write their rules, and chill.
  Posted 13 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously | Permalink
- Innie: Unfortunately, that's valid only to a certain extent. As I said, some of my friends don't want their meat or crops; all that is mine! I share a house with them and all they get is storage space (I get all the collectibles) - which is exactly the situation between my alt and I. Either way, my friends have keys to my alt's house as well, meaning that all those crops/herbs/trees are split with my friends as well as myself. The difference is just that my alt doesn't take a cut, which is the same deal as my friend in my original example :/
  I completely understand that there is a difference between friends and alts, I just think that the difference is minuscule and possibly even non existent in certain situations.
  Posted 13 months ago by heartNadia | Permalink
- I found out pretty quickly in this game that the amount of currants you have doesn't mean much beyond buying a house, equipment, and toys if you're into that. So what is the 'unfair advantage' here? Is there really anything to gain by raking in the dough with a couple of alts? Do I care if someone wants to play that way, with an eye for the big bucks? Nah. People have different motives in this game, who am i to tell them which goals to have?
  Posted 13 months ago by N2ZOrtolanaBlue | Permalink
- Equal rights for all Glitches! Either we are all "alts" or none of us are!
  Posted 13 months ago by Fluxan | Permalink
- What is unfair about the majority of players all having an alt, and each with a vegetable patch and a herb garden? If the majority have it, is that not equal, and not an unfair advantage as all have the same access?
  To those who choose not have an alt, that is their choice. It does not mean others should be penalised.
  Posted 13 months ago by Oristia | Permalink
- Thanks Blanky for the response, I know I personally really appreciate it and your words have gone a long way towards reassuring me. Not reassuring me about a certain outcome, but that the matter's being treated as important, and whatever happens I think I'll feel good about the result in the end and knowing that I'm not breaking rules without knowing it.
  Posted 12 months ago by diaveborn ♥ | Permalink
- I created a second account because I'd plateaued at a high level, wasn't getting many new quests, and wanted to explore the possibilities of following a different skill tree (and enjoying some of the benefits of bog living -- I actually really love the scenery and art there, as well as the music and fireflies and ambience!) I've been having a lot of fun playing my second character -- doing quests, leveling up, growing herbs, learning new skills.
  I have a paid account for my original character and I paid for credits for my alt (and was thinking about purchasing a second subscription if I continued to enjoy the character.) This is an awesome game, and I'm happy to pay the developers for all the hard work they've put in.
  Yes, I do have access to both crops and herbs, but neither of my characters is a "mule" -- I'm spending hours playing them both, and they're both fully-realized characters. There is no intent to defraud anyone (my second account looks just like my first one in a different outfit), I'm not putting stuff on auctions or shill bidding or doing any of the nefarious things that players *have* done that, to me, break the rules and the spirit of Glitch.
  I will be very saddened if the word comes down that I have to kill off my second character and give up my little bog cottage, because the game was feeling really fresh and new to me, and I was having so much fun playing through the lower-level quests again.
  Please give this a LOT of consideration before saying that players can't have alt accounts *to play the game* (not to manipulate markets, which I agree is unfair), and only make rules against the kind of behavior that actually DOES harm other players.
  My intent is to enjoy the game, to make friends, to have fun, and to learn new skills and engage with different game content that I didn't experience with my original character, since I made different skill-path choices for her.
  I very much hope that this does not come to pass, since I know it's going to make a lot of people, including myself, really unhappy :/
  Posted 12 months ago by Ashbet | Permalink
- Is there any word on when the new alt rules will be posted?
  I would like to know before payments of my monthly subs become due since we'll only be refunded up thru Nov 30, if you please.
  Posted 12 months ago by sgjo | Permalink
- I have heard several people say that until a ruling is officially handed down, and until the ToS / Guidelines are updated, that they are still playing their alts (to use their crop plots).
  Is this okay? Will those players get in trouble / be banned?
  Posted 12 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ | Permalink
- I'm also playing my alts as usual - why should they be banned when everything was all hunky-dory before yesterday?
  Posted 12 months ago by sgjo | Permalink
- SHI∇IΔΠ, I just checked the terms of service and community guidelines and they are not changed.
  What is being discussed in forums does not - read should not, in my oppinion - have priority over the "official" documents. There isn't anywhere in game where I'm told I should actively read and follow the forums. I know for a fact many active players do not frequent these forums, besides it is easy to miss a thread or another.
  Again, in my opinion, until ToS and community guidelines change, treat anything that's being said in the forums with a grain of salt. Or allspice.
  My view of the forums is an avenue to brainstorm ideas, clarify some aspects of gameplay, and build relationships that will transfer back into the game. But it's not, never has been, and again in my opinion never should be an avenue for informing players of policy changes.
  And, just a thought for TS...
  When there's a change in either of the "official" documents, can you please make sure it is brought to all players attention? On other businesses - take for instance PayPal - I'm being emailed when there's a policy change, and asked to go review it. In World of Warcraft, each time there's a new update, first thing I see when I log in the game is the new policy, which I must read and abide to before continuing to play. Perhaps something along these lines can be reused in Glitch, so that the large player base that does not frequent the forums is made aware of any change that would impact their gameplay.
  Posted 12 months ago by Heatseeker | Permalink
- I'm still playing both my characters as characters, but I have revoked their access to each other's houses until this is cleared up.
  Posted 12 months ago by Nixified | Permalink
- But it's not, never has been, and again in my opinion never should be an avenue for informing players of policy changes.
  Whether or not you believe that what's in the forums is "official" or not, the fact is that a statement by a staff member that something is against the rules is still "official" It has been in the past, and is currently true that staff statements are policy.
  In this case, Blanky has hedged her statement with further statements about posting clarifying information. And given that many people using alts this way specifically sought permission from staff before creating the character, there are clearly conflicting staff statements about this.
  But your opinion about the validity of this process has nothing to do with the validity of this process.
  Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn | Permalink
- Starting an alt was the most interesting thing I've done in the past few weeks. It was fun to start over and try to be smarter about skill-building. It was nice that my main account was rich and powerful, and could help the alt with cash to buy a house, icons to contemplate, and awesome stew to donate. The game is about sharing. Of *course* I share with my alt.
  Sharing housing with my alt is the *only* thing I would ever use the key-swap feature for -- I thought that was one of the main reasons people were requesting the feature, and in fact hadn't even considered starting an alt until the key feature showed up. I would never share my house with strangers.
  Posted 12 months ago by Marka | Permalink
- WindBorn, I was only made aware of this thread during a chat with another player about someone being banned (for what turned out to be an egregious offense.) This player told me that having an alt might be a BANNABLE OFFENSE, so I read the thread and every comment -- but since I'm an avid player who almost never reads the forums, I would have completely missed it otherwise.
  If there is a change to TS policy that has the potential to majorly impact gameplay or, worse, cause active accounts to be *banned*, I think it's only fair that the notification process should be posted somewhere a lot more obvious than in the comments to a thread -- either a sticky that says "STAFF POST" in the title, a post linked from the red box at the top of the forums, or a ToS-update notification on login.
  At the moment, I'm going to go by the only official policy that I've read, which says that as long as they aren't being played simultaneously in-game, alts are permitted . . . but I'm definitely going to be keeping an eye out for an official statement by TS on whether or not their policy has changed.
  (Not that I'm saying that Blanky's statements don't hold weight, but since there's obviously some disagreement between staff, since many people were told that this WAS allowed, I'm going to wait for the "clarification" and see what's going on.)
  But, yeah -- I never would have seen this if another player hadn't linked me to this thread, and I very much hope that when the clarification is issued, it's posted *prominently* and in a separate staff post, not just a comment here.
  Posted 12 months ago by Ashbet | Permalink
- I like to think that a lot of the best players and most active game participants don't read the forums at all. When said players do speak out with a comment it should carry more weight.
  In fact, it's something I often bemoan when I see it implemented in forums, but I would like to see a post-counter displayed along with name on forum posts here. Because I feel that when someone who only posts a few times at all on the forum, or speaks up for the first time in an important thread, we should be able to look at what they say and weight it as more important than what the usual windbags here say in their hundred-and-fiftieth post this month. People who camp out in a game forum obviously aren't experts in the game, they spend too much time camping out in the forum.
  Until 'read the forums regularly' becomes a requirement for game play, anything and everything stated here is just puff and hot air. Sorry to everybody who puts a lot of work into expressing themselves here regularly, but that's just how it works.
  Posted 12 months ago by Razzal | Permalink
- "Hopefully it'll be posted very soon coz I, for one, would like to know if I want to continue playing a game that allows a few players to bitch, moan and groan and cause everyone else to have to tippy-toe around to keep from getting a bean more than they do!" - LastChance That pretty much sums it up: a few are bitching (oh! i said a dirty word) and complaining and so now the game has to change to make the few happy. phhht..I'll quit playing then.
  Posted 12 months ago by Pekoponian | Permalink
- @Ashbet: Alts are explicitly allowed. However, using an alt to gain an unfair advantage is not (per the published Community Guidelines).
  Posted 12 months ago by BarryW | Permalink
- I was led to believe "in the beginning" That it was "ok" to have an alt as long as that player did not sign into the game on both accounts at the same time..."So what has changed" ? ..Have staff taken back that rule because we now have keys??? Surely it was blatantly obvious if we have/had or intended to get alts we are going to exchange those keys between accounts?? I decided to make myself an alt account just BEFORE the keys came into play...to extend my playing experience, extend my time, my skills, to expand my horizon so to speak by experience the whole newness all over again..nothing more nothing less. Now like a lot of others we are made to feel like "criminals". If the keys hadn't come into play, this would never have been an issue and I wouldn't have felt it wasn't "ok" to have an alt, because we were told it was OK .
  Sour grapes..people who complain and brought this up, guess what..go open yourself an "alt"...that's fair!!!
  I will continue to use my alt for fun as I did before the keys came into play until it is written in the rules that a player can not have multiple accounts, and therefore asking us all who have alts to delete one of our accounts. Thank you!
  Posted 12 months ago by Cryztal | Permalink
- Razzalle, I consider myself an active player. I've been one of the top ten achievers for a while, and here are a few of my previous forum posts (my opinion on housing, achievement guide, thoughts on making happy crabs).
  I'm with Blanky on this one, and I'm one of those glitches who has owned two houses even before the whole herb thing happened. My second account I logged into exactly once for just enough time to buy a bog house and give the key to myself. I realize my actions are dubious. It's a risk I took, I won't try to justify it or rationalize it as being okay simply because I could have had a friend create the faux account. I'd reached the "what next?" point like many others, and decided to play loose with the guidelines to fiddle around with herb gardening and explore a new facet of the game. If TS shuts me down or sends me a warning, I'm happy to give up the vacation home, but I'd frankly be surprised...
  Because- as Blanky mentioned- the issue isn't about houses. It's about the way the game will grow and how to set guidelines to accommodate the most positive experience while reducing widespread exploitation. As TS adds more content, there will be more ways to bend the rules to abuse the system. By adding some clear restrictions on multiple account use, they can steer gameplay. For instance, when quests start popping up that require more and more cooperation, the common glitch will ask itself, "how many glitch friends can I get to help me beat this quest?" rather than, "how many extra accounts do I need to beat this quest?"
  Of course, exploitation will happen. Any MMO will attract a few exploiters. There was a guy in World of Warcraft who owned forty accounts so he could raid capital cities all by himself. It was hilarious and heartbreaking and a bit exploitative, but most importantly, it was atypical. TS's guidelines won't stop everyone, but it will curb the majority of us from straying too far into dubious territory.
  Posted 12 months ago by Jessup | Permalink
- Hello
  I think it may be time to bring your alts into the open. Instead of having multiple accounts, people should be allowed to make a number of alts on each account, this would be similar to most other mmo games. The only restriction would be that only one character can learn at a time, for any one who has played EVE this should sound familiar. Currently this would not be much of a restriction for most players, however as the game grows as skill time gets longer it will.
  Welcome Home
  Rev.
  Posted 12 months ago by Revrent | Permalink
- Windborn@
  But your opinion about the validity of this process has nothing to do with the validity of this process.
  I am in no way saying that staff isn't authority. I think you misleadingly interpreted what I wrote. As a couple players pointed out in recent comments, forums aren't required reading to be able to play the game. The ToS, Privacy Policy and Comm Guidelines are. Therefore a large player base isn't reading anything on the forum; from my past experiences, typically no more than 5 - 10% of the player base of any game are actively participating in the "official" forums, and perhaps no more than 30% of the total players of a game ever reads anything on them.
  All I'm trying to say is until forum reading becomes a requirement for everyone playing the game, do not assume anything discussed in various threads around here reaches the player base. Policy discussions and clarifications clearly belong to the forum. However - exactly as Blanky said - once they'll have an "official" modification, it'll be posted in the appropriate places.
  Posted 12 months ago by Heatseeker | Permalink
- As others have already said: if everyone can do something, it's not an advantage.
  I can learn Mining IV, that doesn't mean I have an unfair advantage over someone who chooses not to.
  I can create an alt, level it to 3, get it a house, and swap the keys. Further, it doesn't cost anything (financially) to create alts. It merely costs time. Meaning you can do it, she can do it, he can do it, and that guy over there can do it.
  It's not an advantage, let alone an 'unfair' one. Period. It never, ever was.
  Want an alt? Make an alt. Everyone can do it. There is absolutely nothing stopping you, except your own laziness (or now, Blanky saying it's apparently an unfair advantage to utilize alts to diversify your crops, even though staff said over, and over, and over before that it was 100% kosher).
  Complaining about someone else's alt-based advantages means you are choosing not to take the time to create one, or to play long enough to raise the currents to buy it a house. Just like complaining that someone else is mining faster than you means you are choosing not to take the time to learn higher levels of mining... or complaining someone else has more space in their 50k house than you do in your 5k house, means you chose not to take the time to earn the money to buy a 50k house. It's merely another mechanic of the game, like any other. Utilize it, or not... but don't be angry when others do, and most certainly don't complain about it when you realize that they are being more awesome than you because of it.
  This isn't an advantage, and never has been. Further, it most certainly shouldn't be a bannable offense.
  Posted 12 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ | Permalink
- Exactly!
  "Playing *simultaneously* in two different browsers for the purpose of using your alt to give your main account an advantage over players who choose not to do so" <snipped from a longer paragraph>
  There's a total difference between the words "choose not to" and "can't (or unable to)"
  Now, I have no problem with this particular rule only because I know that there are players who "can't" play this way even if they wanted to due to their computers or whatever not being able to handle it. BUT...
  There's no reason, computer or otherwise, that anyone can't create an alt to play with.
  We were told, even before we went live, that having alts was fine.
  Maybe the OP should change the title of this thread to "I'm not able to steal if alts have keys" coz, after all, s/he thinks "Stealing is O.K.!" ( http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/10745/ )
  Posted 12 months ago by sgjo | Permalink
- There's a quick and easy fix for this, and can kill 3 birds with 1 stone: restrict guests / duplicate-key holders from intereacting with any objects within the house - drop something on the floor, click it's locked! Sorry, please ask the house owner to pick it up. Solves exploits, theft, and can encourage house visits among glitches.
  I'm sure this has been suggested before.
  Posted 12 months ago by Wayfarer | Permalink
- Wayfarer, the whole point of the keys is to allow the holder to interact with stuff in the house.
  Posted 12 months ago by Whym | Permalink
- Sure, they can still activate doors and climb ladders...
  Posted 12 months ago by Wayfarer | Permalink
- Wayfarer -- I'm not in favor of that solution because the reason I gave my daughter and boyfriend keys to my house (and vice versa) was SO THAT we could interact with each other's stuff -- I'm online more than my boyfriend is, so I feed his piggies and collect meat/milk if his collectors are full. My daughter wants to grow herbs, so she uses my herb garden if I'm not growing something. If she needs to use the Gassifier, she uses the one at my house.
  I also just went to a really fun party in Glitch (thanks, Malist!) where the host put out drinks, food, and cubimals for the guests. It was a blast, a bunch of people came, new friends were made, visitors dropped food and drinks for the host and guests as well . . . to me, it was a standout example of just what Glitch is all about.
  (I am, however, pleased that Icons can't be moved if they're placed in the house by the owner -- he asked me to check before the party guests arrived, just because the party was open to friends-of-friends and Icons are too valuable to risk.)
  But, yeah. I think that setting that type of rule would remove fun gameplay options, and would senselessly penalize players because of the actions of a few.
  I was talking about this thread at dinner tonight, and one proposed solution to the "alt problem" would be to have linked accounts -- putting something in the TOS saying that if you created multiple accounts, you needed to link/flag them (so that TS staff would be able to see it.) Linked accounts wouldn't be able to interact with each other on the auctions. That would prevent a lot of the shenanigans that are being discussed (shill bidding, etc.) while still allowing people to play multiple characters if they want to.
  Posted 12 months ago by Ashbet | Permalink
- [...] one proposed solution to the "alt problem" would be to have linked accounts -- putting something in the TOS saying that if you created multiple accounts, you needed to link/flag them [...]
  This is an excellent suggestion!
  I would like to add just one little twist... Sometimes it's great to have a list full of friends, and chat / do stuff together. But sometimes you just want to chill out on your own for a bit, and squeeze a chicken or what not after a tough day at work. For these times, an alt is a perfect solution. The link between accounts should be visible to TS, but not to everyone; or, we can have an option to make it visible to everyone or just the staff.
  Posted 12 months ago by Heatseeker | Permalink
- I just saw a status update from someone saying he/she had been suspended for having two accounts, even though they were never played at the same time. If this is true, it raises important questions.
  Firstly, I'd like very much to know if this is the whole story. Was there any other circumstance involved that contributed to the player's suspension (griefing, illicit economics hacking of some kind, etc.)?
  Secondly, I'd like to know what the terms of the suspension were. Was the suspension for a particular period of time and if so, how long? Was the player required to relinquish one of the characters before returning to play? Or, if not, were specific types of interaction between characters forbidden?
  Having these matters remain mysterious, unclear, a moving target, or perhaps even differently applied to different players by different staff significantly detracts from some of the potential enjoyment in playing Glitch. @Blanky promised us a "crystal clear and comprehensive" post on this topic more than 3 days ago. I sincerely hope it will be forthcoming soon!
  Posted 12 months ago by Pascale | Permalink
- Pascale, I believe I know the person you're talking about, and he just logged in the game minutes ago. So... a misunderstanding on his part perhaps because he didn't look banned at all to me?
  How 'bout we all chill for a bit, and wait for the staff to work out on house customizations and the new policy. It was all fine in Ur before the whole alchemy / herb thingie, so I guess we can find other stuffs to do in game for a while?
  Group hug anyone? *smile*
  Posted 12 months ago by Heatseeker | Permalink
- @Ashbet, it sounds like you are using others' accounts for unfair advantage.
  Posted 12 months ago by Marka | Permalink
- using others' accounts for unfair advantage.
  That's a new one! What's next? Desktop single player Glitch? :)
  Posted 12 months ago by Heatseeker | Permalink
- When the Community Guidelines talk about multiple accounts and not allowing "unfair advantage", they're talking about unfair advantage over those who run only one account. I've got two characters (my other, more advanced/"main" character is Fnibbit), and I know for certain that I have not run afoul of this part of the guidelines because my characters have never interacted in game. For all the people who say "but anything you can do with alts you can do with other people's characters", do those things with other people! This is meant to be a game with social aspects, and doing things with yourself isn't social. (I frequently play in a hermit-like way, but don't expect to get the advantages of the social aspects of play while being a hermit.)
  I agree that there's a problem that there have been contradictory interpretations of the guidelines coming from staff saying that key-sharing and garden-sharing between alts is or is not OK, and clarification of this particular point in the guidelines or the FAQ would be a good thing (and is going to be forthcoming!). But the guidelines themselves seem to support the interpretation that garden-sharing between alts would be disallowed, since people running only one character could not have both kinds of garden without cooperating with other people.
  Posted 12 months ago by Granny Weatherwax | Permalink
- @ Heatseeker.....LOL....thanks for the laugh!! "Desktop Single Player Glitch?" LOL
  Posted 12 months ago by im4noles2 | Permalink
- I hope that the clarification of what is and is not allowed is forthcoming soon. I created an alt, bought a house in a different and exchanged keys without ever thinking that there could be a problem with it. After all, one of the sections of the community guidelines does say 'There is no "Right Way" to play Glitch'. I have now revoked the keys from both characters because I don't want to get into trouble and be suspended or banned, but it would be nice if the "rules" were more clearly defined.
  Posted 12 months ago by Trekkie Gal | Permalink
- Hrm. I'm guessing this has been brought up already but in case it hasn't what would the response be to players working together to offer each other an advantage?
  Say player Jim makes an alt called Jeff and buys a bog house. He gives the key to player Jackie who has an alt named Jessie who owns a bog house as well. Jim has the key to said bog house. Are these sorts of shenanigans acceptable? The alt is benefiting the other player and not yourself, so where is the line drawn?
  In this situation both players end up having access to both crop and herb patches...
  Posted 12 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom | Permalink
- If I play both accounts actively (in that, neither is merely just there to hold the house for the other to use) is it considered rule-breaking?
  How much activity will be required for the 2nd character to be considered 'within the rules'? Do I have to pet at least 5 piggies a day? Harvest at least 10 trees? Gain a level once a month?
  Posted 12 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ | Permalink
- I was wondering about exactly the same thing, Liza.
  This whole discussion is a result of poor planning on Tiny Speck's part. It's not fair to penalize players or reinterpret rules about alts because players are trying to experience new content. Tiny Speck should have seen that potionmaking would dramatically increase the demand for herbs and herb plots. Since they didn't have the sense to release potionmaking AFTER the housing changes, the logical solution to the issue is to temporarily put herbs on vendors. That would take away the need for players with crop houses to key-swap with alts in order to have reasonable access to herbs.
  Posted 12 months ago by Lucille Ball | Permalink
- I am concerned now-I share my broadband wifi with my parents in the same house, we all have the same IP address, and becuase my mum only has a netbook (which makes Glitch very hard to play if you're not so computer-savvy, and my mum isn't!) she frequently uses one of my computers to play.
  I've been telling her for months how much fun Glitch is and finally made a character for her yesterday and promised her I'd get her a house and some skills because she doesn't have the time to go through all the basic stuff-she wanted to have "the cute things" I'm always talking about and not worry too much about energy and such (She also speaks very little English, so she needed me for general explanations, too) - I hadn't thought this a problem so I just made a character-I have since added an explanation as to who she is and why she may not speak to you if you met her. She hated my IKEA prison style house (so no use giving her 50k to buy herself one) and it was either a bog house or one of the cute cottages. Is it bad that I convinced her to go for the bog house because I can use it now, too?
  It is technically impossible for both of us to be online on the same computer anyway, so no way I can use her character to help me mining or something (she also doesn't want to learn mining - she's a florist IRL and wants them pretty flowers and trees!) - so do I have an unfair advantage because I asked her to give me and my fiance a key to the bog house? She has a key to mine as well, if she ever needs any meat or milk.
  Do I have to hope she keeps playing or it will be "illegal" if she gets bored?
  Posted 12 months ago by Alyx Sands | Permalink
- That would be a welcome clarification. I'm actively playing my alt (up to level 9 right now, I think?), learning skills, doing quests, and having fun -- since there are fewer quests/achievements at the higher levels, I was getting a little bored with my initial character (because I was running out of things to learn/do), but now I'm having a lot of fun again.
  However, I don't want to lose my initial character or the things I've accumulated in-game. I'm not interested in completely starting over from scratch with a new character who never interacts with the old one -- I'd like to be able to leave a bag of meat in my bog house to be picked up by my second character, for example.
  I'm not playing simultaneously or dual-boxing, the one thing *specifically* forbidden in the rules, and I'm not auctioning anything or doing anything that gives my character "unfair advantages" over others -- in fact, the thing I've enjoyed most about this has been the chance to share seeds, leave drinks on my doorstep, meet my new neighbors (and several of my Glitch friends bought houses in my bog neighborhood, so we've done things like have a party to populate the street with animals), etc.
  I really hope TS doesn't take away this really enjoyable aspect of gameplay :/
  Posted 12 months ago by Ashbet | Permalink
- Haha. Cry more Bender.
  Posted 12 months ago by Bashere | Permalink
- wat
  Posted 12 months ago by Electric Wizard | Permalink
- Stoot's definitive answer to this question is here.
  Posted 12 months ago by Pascale | Permalink

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