Topic

So where is my sandbox?

Okay so I decided to write this topic after being inside the Glitch for the last three tests.
I discovered it months ago, but only figured out recently it was now open for testers.
That's a fun game and I'm enjoying playing it, but as I could see in other topics, I'm also wondering what will happen in the long term to keep the game interesting.
I mean, all those badges are very nice, and everything in the game keeps the player flattered with happiness and rainbows, but what will be the point in the end?
For the moment, the short test periods keep the players from being bored, but before Glitch gets out of beta, I think it really needs a major goal and a purpose to play towards.

A game of giant imagination
That's what the loading page says.
So what do you mean by "imagination"?
I can see that the designers have used a lot of that to create amazing and varied environment for Glitch, but what is left in the end for the player and where are we supposed to use it in the game?

Play Glitch and you'll have a chance to shape the world
There has been some mentions of that aspect in the trailer, home page, and in a few blog posts, but even if the game is still in beta, I'm surprised not to see a single glimpse of it in the current version.
What we can do for the moment is to participate in "projects" to "help build" the streets. I haven't had the time to do that yet because of my fresh account, but from what I understand it's at the opposite of a creative and collaborative process.
It seems to be just like a coloring book for kids. Everything is decided at first by the developers, and players would just have to gather random materials to fill the holes...witch seems pointless in the end because a level designer obviously doesn't need "game materials" from players to design a new street...
Okay maybe there's that idea for the devs to see which project is more popular, and develop more of that part of the world in return. But again, you could achieve this with some in-game voting system, letting the players use their time on less pointless tasks, and more (really) creative projects.

One enormous, ever-changing, persistent world
So that's what Glitch is according to the about page.
There are some aspects that seems really innovative already, like the ability to bring animals to other places, and give them a name, or play with trees in limited areas.
The recent "foodwriting" thing in Plexus also unveiled some possibilities, and showed the need for players to leave their mark and be creative. I could also read about home decoration, or customized groups halls, and I can't wait to see those happening.
But all of that is still a bit limited, and apart from players owned locations, the main word itself won't be "ever-changing", or will it be?

There have been some great games lately with ever-changing worlds.
One of them is Minecraft, but unfortunately it's not an mmo with a single world.
Another one is Love from Quel Solaar, but unfortunately it needs a powerful card, a monthly fee, and a bunch of tutorials.
What I love in those two games is that ability to modulate the world itself, in a true sandbox way of gaming. The nature of Glitch, and its 2d designed elements, probably won't offer the same level of liberty as cubes or procedural environments, but even if the landscapes can't be altered, I believe there's still some room for player-made constructions inside the streets.
There's a mention of "architectural endeavors (later)" in a blog post from April, is it possible to know more about those plans?

Taking the example of "Love" above, the idea of the game is to create settlements somewhere in the world, and develop small player-designed constructions.
The game is well-balanced, because the AI will start to attack the buildings as the base gets bigger and bigger and as it gets annoyed by the intrusion in its world.
Going back to Glitch, we have the rooks as negative force to balance the game.
But why do they attack us? No reason.
For example, players could be able to build constructions (in favor of the gods?), using their skill and helping each other in the process. They would eventually get favor or experience points proportional to time and size of the construction. But that wouldn't last forever, or without teamwork, because the rooks would be around, defending their territory...
.

The above is just a possible example, but to make it short, we need something to make use of our hardly learned skills in the future, something that could be creatively player-designed, and at the same time that gathers people together for a worth purpose.
I know that such wild stuff is hard to code, and I don't care much about the launch date, or less tests sessions, if that can give you more time to create an even better Glitch!
And if you already have some plan around those concepts, I'd love to hear more about it.

Posted 16 months ago by Lemo Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • They're working on it.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I do agree to certain extent.

    I'm trying to figure out how you can create a sandbox where you have freedom of action and can truly affect the world without (1) "breaking" the world and (2) hampering the play of others.

    Its an interesting conundrum.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I share many of your concerns. Namely, the lack of a clear end game goal. The fact that projects are not really projects. Though, we have different ideas of where we imagine the game is going... or where we think it should go.

    A game of Giant imagination—There are many ways to interpret that tagline. Mine? Remember that everything is imagined by giants. It's like a double entendre. The game has giant imagination... Like the phrase. But it's also imagined by giants. The game is of the giant's imagination. See?

    Glitch is a Sandbox Game?—I don't think they want a sandbox game like Minecraft, Second Life, et al. I feel they want the players to create the rules that define the world rather than the landscapes themselves... Not sure how I mean this. But like, IIRC, there is mention of player's creating their own religions, for example. This is just far different than what you create in Minecraft. Creation of abstract vs creation of concrete.

    Trying to avoid fanboyism here, but the game, in its current inception, is persistent... is ever-changing.... and is enourmous. I also feel that players do have power to sculpt each area... we decide the trees, amount of animals, etc. I do want more. I, like others, want more ways to take away. I think the game has a great imbalance of make, and not enough unmake. There should be incentives for making, and incentives for unmaking. As-is there just isn't enough reason to unmake, and not enough opportunities to unmake

    Ultimately, I think both of our issues lie in the fact that there isn't a clear-cut... this is what you're suppose to do... here's where the conflict lies. Here's the endgame. It's all very loose. I have this to say about all of that though... the game isn't done. The 'Giant's' section isn't written. There is a lot of backstory that we get tidbits of... and there's more going on than we know. So I'm going to remain patient and enjoy the game, and keep providing input.

    Great input by the way. I am glad others feel as I do.
    Posted 16 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I once suggested that we all have certain "specialties" that are almost like a career path or line of skill that are extensive and people could work toward by learning the right skills. I think it would help people feel accomplished and would make it interesting because everyone would have some sort of different specialty and people would have to work together to achieve different things. Think Final Fantasy and the use of one offense, one defense, one healer and one "dark sorcerer." Stuff like that, even though FF is about battling evil and Glitch, not so much. Not yet. But the dumb bird seems to be getting stronger so you never know!
    Posted 16 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree a lot with the points you made, and am really looking forward to all this cool stuff beign implemented into Glitch.

    I think the most important thing, and what would be a huge step in the right direction, is player housing. That is, players having to build their own housing from the ground up, similar to street projects, except more difficult and longer-term (upgrades, etc.). To be honest, when I first got into the game, I was surprised housing DIDN'T have to be built. It would fit perfectly into the game as is, and wouldn't harm any other players progress.

    As for more involved world-changing things, I would like to see the ability to build temples to the Giants. The temples could offer buffs to those who donate enough/worship the Giants at. For example, worshipping Zille would increase your change of getting gems while mining for a certain period of time. And like you said, Lemo, the Rook would attack these temples and unless they were defended, they would fall. It would be cool to see the ruins of old temples in certain streets if they couldn't be defended properly.

    I could go on all day about my ideas for a more sandbox-like (which I was really looking forward to) game, but I'll stop now haha.
    Posted 16 months ago by Garbara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Cerulean I think it would be cool, instead of specialities, to affiliate yourself with one Giant (Possibly later in game with temples or something, so you understand what you are getting with your affiliation). Then the skills relating to that Giant would be increased and influence you to go along that path. However, that won't stop you from learning other skills, you just won't get a benefit from them. Would be a bonus to specializing your Glitch without hindering him/her.
    Posted 16 months ago by Garbara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Mr.Dawgg I'm not sure that the end-game isn't clear, I just don't think there IS and end game. Other than street projects, there is nothing to do after you reach a certain level. I really think Tiny Speck just hasn't implemented anything significant (other than street projects) beyond the starter experience, of which I really enjoyed.
    Posted 16 months ago by Garbara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • we have been informed numerous times that the concerns of the OP will be addressed at some unspecified future date.

    it's been a long wait, granted, but apparently this kind of stuff is still in the cards .. so we just have to wait longer, i guess.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lemo, this is exactly what many of us have been asking for, for a rather long time...thanks for posting it so eloquently...and yes, we keep being told that we'll eventually get it, and that's the intent of the game, but again, I've yet to see it.  I know stoot mentioned there were lots of new features for the next test...here's hoping some of them are for individual creativity...I'd be happy just to be able to change and mold and modify my own personal space, without 'being able to change the world'...we'll see what we eventually get...
    Posted 16 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Very well written post! I agree with a lot of these points.... :)
    Posted 16 months ago by NutMeg Botwin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Re: Play Glitch and you'll have a chance to shape the world

    As fun as I think street projects are, I do think that they have room for improvement. At the moment, they're set up in a "donate enough of X and you'll unlock a new street" style. However, there's an opportunity here for letting players to have some more control over what the new street will be like - from its background, to number of trees, to the vendor/shrine, to the name it has. I can imagine player control over streets on a spectrum from very little to a whole lot. 

    For example, players could contribute items based on vague nouns like "whimsy" or "grandiosity" or "nature." These might correspond to scenery in background (e.g. laughing gas -> stars, beryl -> statues, and beans -> hills), but designers would have ultimate control over what it looked like. Or players might have some more concrete control by simply deciding (again via contributions) between a couple versions of something (e.g. Humbaba vs. Zille shrine). This voting mechanism could be used for just about anything, really. Giving even further control, perhaps players might know that it takes earth to create mountains, so they unload so much that the mountains are high enough to block out the sky. Allowing players enough control that they could surprise the devs would be very exciting to see, but the feasibility...

    Clearly, if this is a direction to be pursued, there's a lot to think about in terms of how specific the input & output of the contributions would be, the guidelines given to players, limitations on player contributions (if any), and so on. Whatever the case, I think that making players feel as though they've really built some part of the world would be very rewarding. Plus, it may alleviate some of the issues that have cropped up with the current system. It would be a significant change, I think, but perhaps one worth considering.
    Posted 16 months ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm really hoping some new elements will be part of Glitch when it's released. As fun as it is in test days increments, it needs more to keep me playing for the long haul.
    Posted 16 months ago by Widdershins Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As much as I look forward to the creative outlets we expect, it makes sense to not release them during beta.
    We have been told that upgrades and such will be available to purchase and that homes will eventually have as much customization as our avatars
    I'm pretty sure folks would be ticked to pay to build their dream homes only to see them go "poof" at reset.

    I'm really curious to see what group halls will be, how they will be "constructed" and used.
    On the other hand, as much as I love testing, if I need to pay to help create such a hall, I can wait for the real thing. If I can help create a hall and have it survive reset, that's another story.

    I like the other building ideas mentioned in this thread and can definitely see building toward an end/against rook invasions.

    Truly, I have faith that we have barely seen what the Tiny Speck crew is capable of, and I'm confident they have more than one ace in the hole.
    Posted 16 months ago by JW Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with almost everything Lemo says too.

    (I need to step out, but I will write in this thread a little later with what I think the most promising ideas are.)

    Here's why it's hard: we want (1) one large, shared world that's (2) persistent (3) where you play a game (in the levels, skills, and decide-how-you-want-to-make-your-way ) that (4) is shaped by the actions of the players.

    But that means you can't start over again when it gets messed up — and since everyone is in the same world, letting just one person mess it up can wreck the game for everyone. That means the "world shaping" part needs to happen carefully.

    We expect to be developing Glitch for many years (launch is just one milestone in early development, like beta, or alpha, or the first 'Hello World' client-server testing when we first got started). Though we've tried and discarded many ideas along the way, the core vision has always been that we build out enough of a world that it "makes sense" and then, gradually, aspect-by-aspect, find a way to let players' collective actions start turning the knobs of the simulation and altering the feel of the environment.

    We're almost there for the first half of that :)

    [More later]
    Posted 16 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Tease.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, hush, you love it. 

    ;)
    Posted 16 months ago by Jennyanydots Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Definite tease! lol
    Posted 16 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with what you say Lemo, and I want to congratulate you for explaining very clearly and precisely the changes you would like to see.  This is a well thought out thread.

    That being said, one reason I decided to buy a subscription is because I have a lot of faith in the developers that the world can only get better and better.  I have been so impressed with how the devs have really reacted to what the players feedback has been.  This is my first time testing anything, so maybe it's just because I'm a tester virgin, but I love how the devs take the time to read through many of the forums and really take our opinions and ideas and suggestions into account.  They really are a great group of people and it's easy to trust the game will continue to grow in a direction that I will love
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nicely articulated concerns and ideas, Lemo. I'm looking forward to more creative input as well. It will be interesting to see how the game develops over the next months. I'm heartened to hear Stoot's beginnings of a response. It must be crazy to be on the developers side of this experience. Can you imagine turning your newborn babe over to a total stranger? It is interesting to hear how other games have handled this dilemma. I think we can rest assured that many hours of thought are going into avoiding a free reign player-driven, creative train wreck. 
    Posted 16 months ago by Riverwalker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Want stoot did not mention is the tools to add and extend the game are actually IN the game. At least that's what's been said by staff elsewhere. 

    Adding new components is not a trivial process. Right now I've been playing with a concept street. It's not been at all easy. I've been given the tools with the API to actually run a character through it (without the level of interaction that it have as part of the game - no mood, energy, xp, or favor changes for instance) I can do this for personal use WITHOUT breaking the existing game. But there is a future possibility for things like this to be integrated with the rest of the game. But, again, as stoot has said, "shaping" has to proceed carefully.

    (@stoot - I'll upload my stuff to a Google+ album later and create a specific share for it with you and any other staff member if you are even the least bit curious. I know we are in each other's circles.)
    Posted 16 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Rooks attack the game because they don't like the Giants imagining things. So they swoop down from whatever dimension the Giants exists in into their imaginations and attack the base of the imaginations. Or something like that. Listen to trees and stuff. You get tonnes of back story. 
    PS: I have a suggestion: Do something like FS sphere building- build a street and submit to devs. They then decide whether to include it in game, whether it will mess up the in game feel (so no WoW areas or whatever). Also I'd like it in a sphere style, but you can't have everything I guess.
    Posted 16 months ago by KitkatCat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The only problem with that is it is limited to users who understand what API is. Frankly I don't even know what it stands for
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Laurali - True. Application Program Interface (notice it's at the bottom of the screen). It's simply a program that let's two other programs talk to each other. In this case Glitch and whatever else someone comes up with. A really good example is the Glitch Mash. The API is what let's the Mash get the Glitch character info and pictures from the Game. Right now the API lets you get info on players, the streets and how the are connected, the auction, and the Glitch calendar (there might be more, but this is what I recall off of the top of my head). @Bees! is the developer who's putting that all together (and not surprisingly he did the Glitch Mash).
    Posted 16 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This is kinda in reply to Laurali, who hasn't beta tested another game. But, I actually thought of this while I was afk last night. Anyways, I've been in a ton of closed and open beta tests, so I feel I can say with some authority that TS has an uncharacteristically high level of involvement with the testers and their feedback. GNE was my 'tester virgin' game, and it felt like we all knew the developers. No other game I have tested has been like that til this one.

    In any event, I also wanted to mention that... while it's confusing (? not sure if that's the best word choice) that the end-game isn't outlined... It's also good. Why? Take Rift. I tested Rift for a good while during Closed, and then for the entire duration of the Open beta. I liked it a lot. I really liked the core game and how it worked, looked, everything. They were on to something, I thought. But when they outlined the End Game, my reaction was wow... All of this innovation only so we can have the *same* EG as any other game. It was very disheartening. Needless to say, I didn't feel like sticking with the game. 

    So, while I expect Glitch to have a dramatically different EG than a WoW clone, I can see the merit in waiting to reveal and fully develop it. If Rift listened to its players, maybe they could have come-up with something innovative there as well. 
    Posted 16 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I wonder if he's going to come back to finish what he was about to say...
    Posted 16 months ago by Widdershins Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The open API seems like a real plus to me.  I only started hacking at PHP when I had started playing a few games that ran on it.  I have had zero 'under the hood' exposure to Glitch, but I look forward to it.

    The idea of no End Game seems right to me.  I want to be part of creating a world, not a participant in a long scenario that has a terminus.
    Posted 16 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The API needs better docs still, but @Bees! has done an incredible job of doing what he can at this early stage. Anybody interested in putting together a API documentation group? Ellis Labs has granted open permission to use the CodeIgniter docs format. http://codeigniter.com/user_guide/
    Posted 16 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Fokian & Dawgg: thanks! 
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah! I am easily distracted. And very busy. Bad combo!

    What I meant to add earlier was the following list of areas of development for more sandbox-y play which I think are closest to the intersection of {likely to be fun and interesting} + {consistent with the points 1-4 in my earlier post} + {somewhat clear how they could be implemented}.

    Note that this is not an exhaustive list of features we are going to add (development will also continue in non-sandbox-y stuff) and some of the things on the list we definitely won't get to in the next six months while others are highly speculative. But, we are committed to trying things in all of these areas.

    Creative expression through the design of spaces: by this I mean decorating interiors (which will be our main priority post-launch) but also things like decorative items in other locations, a choice about which buildings to build in group locations and perhaps, eventually, opening up the level creation tools (which actually runs in the game client itself).

    More "toy" items to support free play and player-created games: like the ball that people started worshiping, we really should have dice and cards and other toys which have no direct purpose in the existing mechanics of the game. (Ideas on this front welcome.)

    (Slowly) removing the scaffolding from the economy: vendors really shouldn't sell things that players can make, nor should they buy infinite amounts at an unchanging price. This one will be tricky to get right  but we have some ideas for how to do in baby steps.

    "Programmable" NPCs (non-player characters): teaching phrases to the gnomes is as basic as it gets; giving players the ability to program how NPCs act and interact and then letting them lose has some very interesting possibilities.

    Whatever happens with the API: who knows?! That's the fun part! But we'll be releasing more examples, docs, open-sourced code and other resources to support developers.

    Generative art "apps" and tools for creative collaboration: people have made some crazy stuff with Flash over the years which generate really beautiful results from user inputs — being able to pass these creations around in the game and take turns would be pretty fun. Plus I've had a design for a collaborative step-sequencer (a music making tool) for almost 10 freaking years now and I really, really want to make it happen because Glitch is probably the perfect environment for walking around inside of music.
    Posted 16 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Love the interior design, now add roommates and I will be one happy cookie
    Posted 16 months ago by MonkeyPantz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Stoot, it all sounds so exciting! I love especially the idea of programmable NPCs (animal/tree/rock training skills, maybe?:) and collaborative step-sequencer (music creating, yay!)
    Posted 16 months ago by nekomaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Step sequencer? Music maker? YAY!
    Posted 16 months ago by KitkatCat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • love most of those ideas, especially more toys and the tools you are describing. not sure I like the removal of the scaffolding, but I guess it's best for the game and not all changes will please everyone.
    Posted 16 months ago by bored no more Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This all sounds great - I can't wait! Programmable NPCs could be rather fun...
    Posted 16 months ago by dopiaza Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +11. :)
    Posted 16 months ago by Lelu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wheeee!  +Pi!
    Posted 16 months ago by jasbo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Music?! Sounds like a great idea ~I think...
    ...well, as long as everyone hears their creations through headphones!! ;)
    Posted 16 months ago by ~Scilly~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So much to look forward to! Thanks for letting us get a peek at some of the wonderful possibilities.
    Posted 16 months ago by Riverwalker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Programmable NPCS sounds really really cool, I hope that happens someday.  Also love the idea of games in the game.  And music making!!
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd love programmable NPCs, but hope it will not entail source code, as my mad COBOL skilz will not get me far. Imagine beavers running around cutting down trees, or CYLONS!
    Posted 16 months ago by Widdershins Subscriber! | Permalink
  • LOL @widdershins. Your mad COBOL skills will actually get you anywhere you want - when a language becomes less fashionable & less people want to work with it, the employers who've got existing codebases REALLY have to open their checkbooks :-)

    And woooo to programmable NPCs. But yeah, I fear a '<' instead of a '>' somewhere and we suddenly discover a pig that's left a solid line of Small Shiny Objects With No Intrinsic Value across the entire world.
    Posted 16 months ago by Snazzlefrazz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • These sound great!

    I am imagining programmable NPCs as givers of player created quests. And, I hope, can operate like vending machines: Set it up with a selling script, stock it with stuff, let it go.

    Games! 

    Also so excited about the the chaos that will happen to the market place as the economy becomes player controlled.

    We live in interesting times.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i want programmable NPCs too, but i want them to look like quirky clockwork robots that receive commands via punch cards in a slot on top of their heads.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes! Punched cards! So steps become:
     - learn 'programming' skill
     - buy a robot from a vendor
     - use programming skill to write a script for robot on punched card
     - charge robot with energy
     - insert card into robot
     - unleash!
     - ???
     - profit

    ETA: This means that the robot has a limited life. When the energy you've given it runs out, it becomes inert and sends you a "help, I'm in street xyz and I'm out of power" mail. You then have to go find it and recharge it or pick it up. I guess if left inert for a certain amount of time they'd have to somehow be cleaned off the streets - maybe automatically mailed back to you.
    Posted 16 months ago by Snazzlefrazz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Someone recently criticized me for adding my Cobol and Fortran skills on my resume. :) I knew that part of the market...
    Posted 16 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What about building a robot? I see more uses for tinkering and engineering in there :)
    Posted 16 months ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmm I guess I misunderstood programmable npcs. I thought they meant it was something you could change in game, not something only people who know how to do internet programming will be able to program
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Laurali, no no. I think you were correct. i.e. The quotation marks around "programmable." I of course have no idea how they'd work it, but I imagine a limited but flexible series of commands and the like.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Cool! Even better! Robots could be like blockmakers in that you buy different parts, build it how you like it, need building skills to build them and programming skills to use them.

    FF: it's one thing to say you know Cobol & Fortran but are you actually going to take a job if someone phones you up & says "I've got a 3 month assignment adding a new module to a Cobol accounting & payroll system". If not then you probably want to take it off your resume - it should be a marketing tool not a list of achievements. But I doubt I'm saying anything you don't already know. I've taken C, VMS, Oracle etc etc off mine & I'm thinking I probably should do the same with C# and Visual Basic... don't really fancy Windows-specific work any more.
    Posted 16 months ago by Snazzlefrazz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • C# is no longer Windows specific anymore. It's a standardized language. In fact the CLI system of which it is a part of is standardized too. I can program in C# in Linux with a full IDE :)
    Posted 16 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
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