Topic

Please reconsider the polytheistic and new age overtones of aspects the game

There are so many great aspects to this game, and I get that this game is full of humor and is quite tongue in cheek in many aspects. However, the heavy polytheistic overtones of the giants with their shrines (ie, multiple gods) and the devs playing "God", in many cases will come across as quite offensive to many who take their monotheist religions to heart (Jews and Christians - I am the Lord your God and you shall have no other gods above me; Muslims - "La-il-la-ha-illa-Allah" (ie There is no deity but the God)) and could even offend those of the Atheistic belief system (ie, belief in no God).

I get that this is a game, and I can choose or not to choose to play. I get that some will think that I'm being overly sensitive or silly to voice this opinion. However, I already know of some folks that once they saw this aspect of the game on the wiki page, refused to sign up as either alpha or beta testers because they felt these aspects of the game compromised their belief/value system. I opted to play, to see if I could ignore/not participate in these aspects of the game and hopefully offer a different view to those that may not be offended by this aspect of the gameplay.

While many people, even of these faiths (or non-faith), may be able to overlook this aspect of the game, is it really a smart business decision to potentially alienate up to 55% of your potential players if they can't? (percentage taken from www.adherents.com/Religions... ). As a business decision, it doesn't seem to make sense to keep people from even trying your game because of this type of content.

Frankly, I like the idea of having a spiritual aspect to an online game, and keeping this spiritual aspect could work if you would allow the religious part to be personalized to each player's preferred religion. However, this could be cumbersome/unrealistic on the coding side due to requiring to get the specifics of each denomination or sect correct within each of the over 4,300 different faith groups.

If you want to keep the premise of the 'giants', which I think you do, recommend morphing it into some sort of secular aspect to these 'giants'. (Not exactly sure what that would be at this point). However, instead of shrines, recommend making them charities...I'd be willing to donate goods to a charity in a heartbeat, but I'm not going to donate anything to a shrine of a fake god, and I suspect this will eventually severely hinder me in this game.

Also, while I am fine with the meditation, having to meditate with an orb and some of the others areas of the 'spiritual' aspects are a bit too new age/eastern for me to participate in based on my belief system. Again, another aspect of the game that will likely keep me back unless I compromise my belief system, which I am personally not willing to do (and yes, I understand that is my choice).

I think a game can be fun without being offensive to anyone's personal beliefs...though frankly there are very few out there that are succeeding in this arena since so many are about mysticism and various dark arts. This game has promise to be that unique game that can be a fun game and still cater to a broader audience. Even though I have a lot of gamer friends here (yes, one of the many Faunasphere Refugees), I will stop playing before I compromise myself in this area just to advance in a virtual game. I also think you are missing out on some great players joining your game due to these aspects of play.

Posted 21 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I totally respect your thoughts on this, and agree that this may be a turn-off to some people, but I also must add that others may actually be attracted to the game because of this... plus, it's rather ingrained in the whole idea of the game, so removing it so as not to offend some people would be difficult, without completely destroying the thread of the whole tapestry, as it were... There are plenty of games out there that have players worshiping polytheistic gods, and they are doing quite well, so I don't think this is a game killer. Also, it's questionable that the giants are actually "gods" in the traditional sense of the word... really, it's quite different from anything I've ever seen before, which a gigantic plus, in my book!

    --edited to add: My additional thoughts are that everything will offend someone, so it's impossible to be totally neutral to everyone (and if you were, that would be kind of boring, really...), and also that it's only a game and it's OK to pretend that things are different from your beliefs in the real world for entertainment purposes... Otherwise, I would also have a big problem with the religious aspects of the game for a totally different reason, but I know how to separate my beliefs about the real world from the fantasy games I play... Wow, I would be so limited if I could only interact with things that were in perfect step with my belief system... how boring... sorry, I hope that didn't come out as offensive (it's just how I feel about considering that possibility)...
    Posted 21 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Shepherdmoon, I have to agree that this is finally another unique game - hopefully NOT like all the other games out there, and there are many aspects that I enjoy as well...the quests, exploring the various worlds, trying to figure out how to get things done...

    I also totally agree that the 11 giants are probably integral to the game...but IMO their 'god-like' nature could be toned down to be less offensive. I mentioned charities, someone in another thread mentioned donation centers with a slightly different twist. For me, it's less about the giants themselves than the shrines.

    Per Webster's - one definition of god - "a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship". And one of their definitions of a shrine - "a place in which devotion is paid to a saint or deity." I think having shrines to the giants that require donations to them may qualify as them being 'god-like' even in the traditional sense of the word.

    I also agree that polytheistic game worshipping in other games isn't a game killer per se...but I for one won't play those games, and there are others that feel the same way - I'm just their voice here, since many of them chose not to play this for those reasons as well. Just seems odd to me to alienate any population in a game.

    I disagree that I should even have to pretend to not be offended based on my beliefs. While I understand many don't, I choose to be transparent about my beliefs whether I'm living RL or playing a game. I also get that I don't have to play the game either, and I could just keep my mouth shut and go along with the crowd, but alas, I've never been much of a follower of crowds. I could ignore these aspects if they weren't so ingrained in the game. So, the meditation aspects, I can probably ignore with limited liability...not donating to shrines, probably not. There were aspects to FS that I kept mum about that were mildly offensive...I just avoided them or didn't participate in them where possible.

    I also disagree that everything will offend someone...somehow, I can't see watering a plant as being offensive....though I was going to say that petting a pig isn't either, until I remembered...oops, we've just offended the Muslims again. (Hmmm, that might need to be changed if they ever hope to market to the Middle East)

    It all depends on what they want to do with the game...they can keep it exactly the way it is and I'm sure many will be happy and many will play. However, if they truly want to appeal to a broader audience these are things they should consider...their game, their choice...just like my money and time, my choice to support or not.

    Frankly, I anticipate taking a lot of heat/ridicule/backlash for even bringing this up...I suspect a lot of folks that take offense, either won't say anything out of fear of being chastised, or would just quit and not say much...but this is alpha, when they could still make tweeks to make this an even more appealing game (and this is one aspect to this game that makes it obviously unappealing to some - there were folks at FS that directly stated they would never play this game because of this, and frankly, I wasn't going to sign up either except that I realized someone should say something). I have to say, I could never understand why FS tried to stay so belief system neutral (sometimes they succeeded, sometimes they didn't), but as I had to consider the options for this game, I get it now. There is no way you can take into account over 4000 faiths in any reasonable fashion, so probably easier to attempt to be more neutral than deal with the variety of issues it brings up.

    BTW, I did mean to mention, it was kind of impressive the breadth of people this aspect of the game could potentially offend. Not sure I'd ever lump Jews, Christians, Muslims and Atheists together to make a point. I'm sure there are other religions that could be included I just don't know enough about to bring up...
    Posted 21 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There are no gods in the game. Global messages come under the name "GOD," but that's not meant to be any sort of capitalized God. They could rename shrines or change "GOD" to "TinySpeck" if that would make it clearer.
    Posted 21 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • For what it's worth, I think the characterization of gods & shrines throughout the game is not a big deal. To me, it's the same as playing a game with a mythological theme (think Zeus and Athena) or an Egyptian theme (think Horus and Isis). To me, it's just playful imagination. As far as GOD goes, I just chuckle. An old friend of mine is named Godfrey and we all call him God for short.
    Posted 21 months ago by GreyGoose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • you mention that there is one definition of the word shrine in Webster's that makes you feel uneasy about the implications of having shrines to the giants in the game. are there other definitions that would help to keep in mind?

    also, GOD pretty much only tends to announce the ends of tests, so i imagine this isn't really a long-term feature of the game.

    and yes, there will always be somebody offended by something. we've already had people quit the game because they didn't like that you nibble the piggies to get meat, even though it's a consensual exchange, and i think there was a minor kerfluffle over the age-appropriateness of the rock's humor at one point...
    Posted 21 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ B3achy. I mean this in the most respectful way. This game is NOT ever going to change its core. You are entitled to your beliefs and also to feel offended/ upset .This is your prerogative :)
    But to cut it short.. I do not believe it will change in the way you wish.
    Age old saying,
    "You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time."
    Posted 21 months ago by Misha Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, I think there will be many more people offended by the sexual undertones and alcohol available in the game. If they're going to remove religious aspects so as not to offend people, they will have to remove those too....
    Posted 21 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm sorry if anyone is uncomfortable with "shrines" or "God" etc., but I don't see it that way at all. These references don't feel religious to me, they are only humorous, so I get a kick out of it. It doesn't threaten my beliefs, or interfere in any way. I wouldn't like to see the game dumb down in order to please *everyone*. I don't think thats possible.
    Posted 21 months ago by Phoebe Springback Subscriber! | Permalink
  • but this game is for 15 years old and more no lower 15 for this he have sexual and alcohol item in the game is just funny thank you DEV for this game
    Posted 21 months ago by AlexAlpha19 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 15 year olds aren't suppose to be having sex or drinking alcohol... plus, there are many adults that are offended by those things, because they think they are morally wrong. I don't have any problem with it whatsoever: I love the jokes and think they're cute, but I can see certain people getting very angry about it... Like I said before, it's very hard to offend no-one, and still keep a game interesting, exciting, and unique. Sure, watering plants isn't offensive to anyone (that I know of), but if all I did was wander around watering plants all day, I'd be bored. If I were working on Glitch, I wouldn't bother trying not to offend anyone--just keep the creative juices flowing! That's what makes the game great!
    Posted 21 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Even though there are some people who will be offended by those aspects of the game, there a plenty of people who will play it regardless. I like the way Sheperdmoon put it - "Sure, watering plants isn't offensive to anyone (that I know of), but if all I did was wander around watering plants all day, I'd be bored." I agree.
    Posted 21 months ago by Cupcake Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 15 year olds know about sex and drugs though we all had health class and the "Don't do drugs" talk in Junior High. I thought the "Just say no-no" was rather clever and it can serve a place in the game, if the world was perfect it would not be believable, like the Matrix. There is a creator and demons thing going on and the whole idea has lots of room to be explored, it would also be hard to take the Giants out, you would take the Rook out, the skill restrictions. It would just be a pain and would not be as fun.

    This is like the animal=food thing all over again.

    I am sorry if they don't like it, but I am Christian and I don't worship the Giants. It is a game and it is fun. I know a bunch of Christians who play and they know that yes there are Giants but it is fun. There is no way to not offend everyone otherwise we would all end up in a grey box and some one will be mad it is grey.

    The GOD thing is a bit of a joke. Some developers can get a god-complex, like doctors and teachers, so they are making fun of it. The devs also have god-like powers in their world like creating streets, teleporting, conjuring vendors at will. Maybe they're wizards.
    Posted 21 months ago by Ani Laurel Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @b3achy thanks so much for your thoughtful posts. It's important to understand how people feel, and especially to help the Devs see different points of view and concerns.

    Regarding the god and shrine imagery, I think it really depends on the person and the religion. I don't think that ALL Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists would have trouble playing. For example, I am Catholic and there isn't anything in our doctrine that would disallow this game. In fact, we extensively study polytheism in our schools.

    Fantasy exists pretty well with many religions. J.R. Tolkien, author of the Lord of the Ring series, was a devout Roman Catholic and was instrumental in the (re)conversion of C.S. Lewis to Christianity. Lewis's fantasy novels explored many ideas in Christianity and heavily borrowed ideas from Greek mythology in ways that I am sure some Christians would say was inappropriate. Others find him inspiring.

    The data-head in me is forced to say that of the 55% that you say may not be able to play isn't quite right. You need to take out the people who belong to monothesitc faiths that have different constraints. My faith allows me to drink, smoke, read Harry Potter, play Star Wars and dress up for Halloween. We can also play Glitch. I think that the net you cast is way too wide. The swath of people who, because of their beliefs cannot play, is much smaller.

    I truly respect your point of view, and think it's important to voice. I am glad you made me think about it, too. It's got to be hard to walk along the line that you have in the current environment, your faith is strong. I admire you and wish you well, whatever you decide.
    Posted 21 months ago by Mac Rapalicious Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Very well said, Mac Rapalicious!
    Posted 21 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • b3 - you entered the world looking to 'spot' where playing Glitch could be construed as Idolatry, and therefore spent your entire time looking to hate pieces of it. You've been complaining for days that you didn't think you'd like it for the reasons you've listed above, and set out not wanting to. That said, I think you took the entire concept in the wrong direction.

    Everyone should take a second and go listen to the trailer again. WE are inside the minds of the Giants. The Giants are not and have never professed to be Gods. The developers have never stated they are. They have no religious affiliation whatsoever. They have almost no direct impact on the game itself, short of handing out emblems to unlock part of a skill tree. By the b3 logic, going to college = Idolatry? Or is it the donating.. because I give to Goodwill and even faith based Charities not of my own faith all the time, and my Rabbi doesn't see any problems with it.

    I really don't understand the offense, I've never viewed Glitch as having any sort of religion. I actually haven't noticed any blatant references to this point.

    As for GOD... how offended are you going to be when it's a player running around in Glitch who called themselves God? That can still happen you know, the names aren't unique. Or should I stop calling my co-worker Jesus? It IS his name.

    From a technical aspect, GOD is probably what they named the Administrator Account on the server. Whoever happens to be behind the keyboard at shut down is typing up the goodbyes and preparing for shut down. Those messages only appear when the world is having serious issues, or is about to close. I imagine they'll go away entirely when the world is live 24/7, barring a total melt down.

    So the question you must ask yourself, is it something you can live with? If the Giants irritate you because you view them as religious icons rather than teachers, Glitch might not be the home you were looking for. But if you're going to start a crusade against the Giants, it becomes you making others uncomfortable. I value you and your opinion, but I really don't think the majority of people are going to feel alienated by the Giants.


    **Edit - also b3, don't look now... there are other ways to gain 'favor' beyond donating. Many in game actions earn you favor, as do several of the Quests. So while you may not have been actively earning favor, I bet if you scan through the listing on the Leaderboards you'll find you've passively earned a fair amount. Don't feel up to it, you'll see it the first time you accidentally earn an emblem.
    Posted 21 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You can't please everybody. And really, If someone is getting genuinely angry because of a make believe online game that has a mythology different from their faith, they are the ones with a problem, not the game.
    Posted 21 months ago by Tofu Casserole Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am a Quaker and frankly this hadn't even occurred to me. The presence of shrines and the use of the word "God" are not used in a way that makes fun of or degrades any religion, or that shuns it. Indeed one could argue that the use of religious and spiritual terms is a positive inclusion in a world that is so materialistic. Should I, as a vegetarian also be offended that I have to "nibble" piggies?
    Well done for developing a game that is NON VIOLENT. Wonderful and refreshing. Please keep it thus!
    Posted 21 months ago by Malupin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We had the animals=food debate and they flamed her. My pastor read us Tolkein in his sermon. I still go to church and I do not believe that GOD is GOD. Just think of it as the people in your fantasies coming to life and having fun.
    Posted 21 months ago by Ani Laurel Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I find all of this thread's comments extremely interesting and well thought-out. Mac Rapalicious particularly had some good points. I knew a couple people from Faunasphere who didn't want to try Glitch because of the perceived religious aspects as well. And while we can't speak for others, and shouldn't, I get the feeling from this thread and from chatting with her that b3achy honestly came to try out Glitch not so much to look for bad things as to find out for some of her friends whether certain aspects of the game might feel uncomfortable with their faith systems or not and sort of give them some feedback. And now she's enjoying the game and wanted to share ideas about how some things could be shifted a bit or whether that's unrealistic maybe.
    My two cents on the topic are that I also think of myself as deeply Christian but not fundamentalist at all...Christian but very relaxed about others' beliefs (if that makes sense). I often wrestle with myself over whether certain things in the real or virtual world go against what God wants for us to do or not, but I usually end up thinking that actions in games (such as donating to a shrine) don't make me less of a Christian when I know that a) it's not real and b) it doesn't at all change my loyalty to God. I'm just giving stuff to giants is how I think of it. Same with the drinking quests and the crazy people with no clothes on, the drive-by kissings/splankings, etc...do I do that stuff in real life or encourage it? I try not to (nobody's perfect after all). In a game, I think it's funny and fun. I'm not actually drinking 12 beers and getting smashed of course, and I certainly wouldn't want a 15-year-old doing that in real life either. But then I wouldn't want to be jumping on animals heads to kill them in real life, to speak of one activity another reeeeaaal popular game has you do a lot :). Other aspects of my game behaviors that I think more directly affect other real people, and myself, I do try to be careful about: I don't steal people's things in a game nor will I ever use the three-letter abbreviation OM...you know...because I personally don't feel it's right for me. And of course, I could choose not to play. I do think some people won't choose to play because of some of the content, and I know part of the loss being felt by those who aren't playing is the loss of the close-knit community we had in Faunasphere; they don't want to be left out. That's a tough one...no good solution leaps to mind for me.
    I think as the virtual world becomes a bigger part of all our lives, some of the what do I do and not do questions are getting muddier...we're all sort of working through these things together. And gaming is a fun way to learn to navigate the waters. Maybe I do things God wouldn't want me to do...I'm not always sure. Maybe I do them anyway when I shouldn't...that's my little issue to work out. But God forgives...:)
    Hugs to you all...I'm very curious to see how this all shakes out....
    Posted 21 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Travinara - well said. The giants have not been referred to as religious at all. They imagined us up, that's all. And we donate to them to suck up for favor points. We're not actually worshipping them - donating is purely for the purpose of our own benefit. Glitch didn't create a new religion.
    Posted 21 months ago by Cupcake Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't think any excuses should be made for whether the Giants are gods or whether GOD is God. If they are, that's the game and the world created, and there's nothing wrong with it. The existence of a fantasy world (or, even of a real religion!) is not offensive.

    Now, if there were parodies of world religions in the game which were thoughtless enough to be hurtful, I would object. But there aren't.

    I really don't see how this game can be seen as offensive. Inappropriate, perhaps, for those people who believe playing it would be too close to idolatry. But I doubt those people make up 55% of the target players, as their convictions probably cause them to stay away from most games anyway. It's far more likely (and the replies here suggest it as well) that even religious people do not see Glitch as an insult or a threat to their spirituality.
    Posted 21 months ago by Cefeida Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Speaking entirely for myself here, I don't see the giants as gods. They are God-like in game lore, in a way, due to being responsible for creating their world of thoughts and the things within it. However, aside from giving inspiration (faster learning) and handing out emblems to unlock new skills, they're utterly passive, and play little part in a Glitch's daily life. They have no churches, no priests or preachers, few-if-any commandments or restrictions on behavior (outside of the game rules)... heck, they have no organized faith of any kind beyond people dumping shiny junk into their shrines in hope of inspiration or an emblem. Heck, the game even pokes fun of it as being totally self-centered - I believe your Magic Rock even outright calls it "sucking up to the bosses" in his quest dialogue.

    I'd be a little more inclined to agree with the OP if, say, actively praising Zille would make getting gems more likely when mining, or worshipping Humbaba would get piggies to come to you or give up bonus meat when nibbled. Y'know, if active worship of the Giants was a game mechanic. Being a sycophant to them via donations can help you learn a new skill faster, and bootlicking enough might get you an emblem to unlock a new skill, but once you've done that you don't need to pay the Giants a lick of heed, and they don't seem to mind in the least.

    Furthermore, I dissassociate myself and my character. I don't worship the Giants. I do not have a shrine to Pot in my real-world home, and I do not believe praising him in real life will earn me abundance and plenty. I might roleplay my Glitch that way, but I have no delusions that Pot or any other Giant is anything more than a game mechanic and some fluff lore in a fictitious world. Therefore, I don't really see the problem.
    Posted 21 months ago by Doc Oblongata Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Although it's really not apparent from the intro of the game (anymore), the giants aren't deities. Players are basically neural activity, "bees of the invisible", if you want to get poetical about it, in the hive of the giants' collective imagination.

    I suppose the term "shrine" doesn't help matters, but in truth shrines are basically fancy recycle bins with points-based loyalty programs attached to them.
    Posted 21 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink