Topic

A Concern about Street Project Phases


Like some of you, I have been trying to keep track of what items and skills are needed for street projects. I discovered a pattern: the titles of the phases match a set of items and skills that are always the same, with the exception of a few that have a couple of versions to them. Some sets have multiple titles, but the same six items and six skills all hang together.

I have to admit I was happy with this discovery, because it meant I could prepare whatever was needed for the upcoming phases by just knowing the title. Sure enough, though, I wasn’t the only one who’d discovered this advantage. It wasn’t until this test that I noticed some street projects being completed in less than five minutes. I noticed that some people were nabbing large percentages very quickly, and not just due to donating a lot of one item. Most importantly, I noticed that the newcomers to street projects weren’t able to contribute a single item in edgewise.

I see Glitch as a place where community and cooperation are important values. When it comes to street projects, this gap between veterans and newcomers – in resources, skills, and knowledge – worries me. If the phases are completely predictable, and more people figure them out, my guess is that contributions will be a matter of preparedness and how quick you are to the draw. I realize that not everyone works on street projects to be in the top five, but I think it discouraging to see all of the items completed in a matter of seconds. Where is the opportunity for teamwork? Why would a newcomer even bother participating?

I humbly submit this concern to the Glitch staff and community in the hopes that we can make street projects (more) fun for everyone now and in the future. I can imagine many possible alternatives, such as randomizing items/skills within certain categories, making all skills needed of low level, creating some kind of donation cap, asking for not just items/skills but quest-style actions, etc., but I’d like to hear people’s thoughts. Thank you for reading.

Posted 17 months ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Thanks for bringing this up!

    There are some older topics about the ways in which projects could be improved; searching for them on this forum is pretty difficult, but I'll try to come back with some links later.

    I agree that the projects are far too predictable.  It'd be cool to see them truly randomized (at least for food and drink).  So, if the project asks for 6 types of food, 3 made with a knife and board and 3 made with a grill, then it'd be great to randomize from the entire pool of recipes from those tools.  For example, kebobs are all too predictable - easy enough to make a ton of them and then wait for the opportunity to appear, as it always does.

    I gave up criticizing projects (or working them) because it dawned on me that there are now enough players that streets get built out perfectly fine without my help and projects went from being one of my favorite things to do to one of my least.  So, I just bailed on them. But I do still think there is room for improvement with them (and pretty much my current ideas are the same as my older ideas, so I'll look for links rather than repeat them).
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Project camping has been going on since at least May, but it's now reached ridiculous proportions. Playing Glitch is fun, but (to me) camping isn't playing and it isn't fun.

    It would be interesting if it was effectively impossible to prepare ahead of time for a project, like if it gave you some task that you had to go out into the world to do. (Maybe something like "go pick up this special item at the tool vendor in Cebarkul, craft it into a different item, and bring it back".) That doesn't solve the synchronization/camping problem, though.

    I did notice that nostalgia really cuts down on camping because you can't wait around forever.
    Posted 17 months ago by Hagbard Celine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, it's part of the reason folks will ask..."so what are the names of the phases?"...I suspect many have developed a listing/playbook to follow for when they get to each of the phases (and yes, I'm surprised I've not put one together yet...lol).  From what I understand, some of the energy requirements per tasks get shuffled around (at one project someone commented that this time, x was cost more energy than y, and it was y last project that was the highest), but otherwise, they stay pretty consistent.  This thread goes hand in hand with the game is too predictable thread.  The coding on these should be more complex/random as well. 
    Posted 17 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh boy - I agree.
    I just started working on street projects and I was wondering about how this would work for newbies.  It took me some time before I was skilled enough to contribute enough to the project to get a piece of trophy.  I think most people would be able to contribute at least a little (emphases on little) something.

    I agree that something should change, perhaps you are allowed to contribute to every 3rd project or even better is what the OP suggested and keep the requirements really random.
    Posted 17 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes completely agree. I started street projects this test and found that some parts had already finished before I could even click and find out what is needed.I got a street trophy in the ancestral region only because I kept coming back to participate.Maybe all street projects should have a 10 minute countdown so camping can't happen?
    Posted 17 months ago by Phochai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'll admit that I kept what b3achy called a playbook, with the intention of posting all the stuff on the wiki. But seeing this post, I'm not sure that I should, as it would probably just increase the number of campers :\  Or would it be considered leveling the field?

    Sigh. 

    Plus, we're building streets soooooo fast now, I'm not sure we need more quickness. I was stunned by how fast a phase went by this test, after taking a 2-test break from projects.
    Posted 17 months ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I know some items will fill quickly, just because people have a lot of them.  I tend to carry around a lot of planks, and ore/ingots, since I like to mine. If you have them, and the project needs them, it can shoot you up pretty high on the leaderboards quickly.  Since I don't do projects that often - maybe one or two phases a test lately - I tend to keep collecting items. There is a certain repetition to the items required, that you can build up quick a stash of things, if you don't participate regularly - planks, ores, ingots, crystals, talc, bricks, are pretty standard. You get to a project that needs them, and you dump in your whole batch, then you can shoot up the leaderboard pretty quickly. Though that makes it part of the challenge too...trying to be the first to get your stuff in.  One project I had like 750 planks, and I missed getting them in, because I was looking at the bottom line, and they filled before I could even hit the button for them to add mine (and yes, I am still carrying those planks around with me).  I think in some cases, people just know...hey, my last few projects required these things...I'll collect them as I go. We've gotten the pattern down...time for the devs to change the pattern...or to build in more randomness into the pattern. 
    Posted 17 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +100 randomness - it would probably reduce the amount of people who make/procure the stuff before the project starts. I'd like some of that wondering back of what stuff might be needed. It probably wouldn't reduce the number of people waiting around for the next phase to start though - that's been going on for as long as I can remember (which is admittedly only a few months).
    Posted 17 months ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Personally I gave up on contributing a lot to projects because I realized there is no way I'll get to the top 3 or even top 10, so I'm saving my energy for other things. I will contribute the odd item here and there to get the TP script afterwards though...
    Posted 17 months ago by Nevet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Completely agree with just about the whole thread, especially the call for more overall randomness. At one point there was a celebrate or schmooze phase and 200 cosmapolitans and cheese platters were donated within seconds - when it starts feeling more like a race, it loses a lot of the sense of discovery and community that made projects a fun thing to do.
    Posted 17 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I donated and helped few times in the past. In my opinion, it was fun to do some of projects but the leader board is not really worth to put up. I think it created player to get on the top 5 or 10 competitively.
    Posted 17 months ago by Milolin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have never participated in a project. Came by one 2 times and every time I couldn't contribute because of my lack of skills. What I understand is that there are stages, every stage requires different items, everyone "donates" stuff and the individuals who donate the most get a reward? That doesn't really encourage working together, or does it?

    Maybe projects should require more working together. I like the idea of sending you to a specific vendor to make something unique, but teleporting(tokens) still give an advantage. Maybe little sidequests that require 2 or 3 people, like a race but instead you're required to work together to get to a (random) item needed for the project. Games like yinyang come to mind. Putting those sidequests into a setting that matches the new street makes it feel like you're actually building something new.
    Posted 17 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have to agree with most of the posters here.  I had a go in a couple of the projects during the last test and came out quite high in one of them because I was carrying a load of Jellysacs.  Usually all my 'stuff' is left at my home because I just don't have enough room to carry everything around and I don't seem able to organise myself properly but by the time I've teleported back to collect bricks, for example and then gone back to the project the bricks are full.  In the past there has been a community feel as lower levels have donated the ingredients needed to the players who can make the requirements, the maker has then given some of the food back to the lower level player to donate so they have involvement, this seemed to be sadly lacking in the last couple I did yesterday.  I agree that sidequests would be a great way of putting some interest back into projects, also possibly to remove all the names of each future phase if they cannot be randomised.
    Posted 17 months ago by Latajea Subscriber! | Permalink
  • well, the high number of barnacles/talc and fireflies needed for some phases (to make bricks or crystals or whatever) sometimes turn into little team side-quests.

    When the numbers required are high enough the campers realise the wait will be just too long.  Groups sometimes follow-teleport to the firebogs together to go collecting en mass.

    Not sure how questy it is, but it used to be a lot of fun.

    In general I feel that the projects feel a lot less projecty than they used to. Maybe it was the fact that there were fewer players, or the resources were more scarce, but once upon a time unlocking a new street really felt like a bit of an achievement.
    Now the unlocking is kind of a side-event and the main aim seems to be to be in the top 3 or whatever to get the trophy piece.  Then 30 people bounce around the new street and stand under the street spirit waiting for the next project to be available.

    A couple of suggestions
    - why not grow several new areas at a time? It would be more fun if a new project popped up in Shimla and a simultaneous one in Alakol and one in Ix.  It would divide the number of players sitting under each project for a start and might give new players a better chance.
    - Add more random phase times. Why do they all have 4 phases? Why not some 5 or 11? Some could take days... others could suddenly complete unexpectedly after phase 1.
    - Stop naming phases, or at least give them random and imaginative phase names that don't allow you to guess what might be required.  Sometimes working out a pattern is fun and makes you feel clever, but if it continues for too long then it gets dull and predictable again.
    - add a 'Overwhelmed by Project Campingness' timer to project streets, and boot people out after 5 or 10 mins of non-donating activity.  That could add all sorts of timing-related strategies...
    Posted 17 months ago by Wrendolin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really love some of the ideas in here which would make contributing to projects more creative - such as arriving and signing up for a little quest which has to be completed for contribution points rather than just dumping stuff in.

    I also love Wrendolin's idea about the overwhelmed by project campingness timer!

    I have to say, as someone who hasn't made a note of what things are asked for in which named stages, people were pretty generous about sharing that information ahead of time if they had it...in my experience. But it would still be more fun if it was more random, if things stay the way they are.

    EDIT:...just to say I loved the ideas in glumpudding's post beneath mine - would be great to have something fun and new to look forward to after some projects so the only goal is not just the street trophies. I'm sure building new streets was exciting at the beginning but I'm sorry to admit it has become a bit dull.
    Posted 17 months ago by Violet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree that project phases were too predictable during this test; however, rather than limiting donations or whatever, I think we just need some new project templates with more varied items and higher numbers of them.  Let's face it: when it was just ten or fifteen of us working on a project, it took a long time to complete a phase, regardless of what was in it.  Over the weekend I saw about fifty people at one project.  I think one person single-handedly contributed the forty blocks required in one phase, another put in a ton of mixed drinks, and so on, so the contribution part of the phase was done in a few minutes.  By contrast, the nostalgia-area projects require many more items and take much longer to complete, and the leaderboards are far more varied. 

    Not to harp on it or anything, but to me, the most disappointing part of a project is the end, because the new streets are so often just rehashes of the old ones, with nothing new to see.  The beginning of the newest area, Tamila, looks just like Bortola or Groddle Forest, and everyone I spoke to about it was disappointed.  I know that other features can be added later, but I suspect that it would boost morale enormously to find at least one great new thing in a new area, especially if it were interactive.  They wouldn't all have to be on as grand a scale as the tower in Jethimadh.  Off the top of my head, how about a wishing well, waterfall, fountain, swing set, teeter-totter, slide, inflated bouncy castle, trampoline, carnival rides, wheat bundle maze (like a hay bale maze), tree fort, department store (think Uncle Friendly's, but larger), central post office, or, since that ball appeared at the last party, a volleyball court?  Even something really simple to create, like park benches and a bird seed dispenser for feeding chickens, would be terrific. 
    Posted 17 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I must implore the devs not to do anything that will purposely limit people's game play. Just because you don't like the way some particular person is playing doesn't mean you have a right to stop them from playing that way. If they like standing in one spot for 1/2 hour, more power to them. You can be happy in the knowledge that you're out having fun and collecting items that will get you further up in the lederboards when you get back. Also, limiting the number of items a single person can contribute or the number of projects they can contribute to will rip away all the fun from those players who don't like doing anything except working on projects, and they will stop playing the game altogether.

    Rather, there are much better ways of dealing with this situation, including many that have already been mentioned:

    1) Drastically increase the number of each item that is required, especially currants. Right now, whoever has the quickest draw always hits the max button and donates all the money at once, and this is unfair to others. Why only 10,000 currants? Why not 1,000,000? Why only 500 wood? Why not 5000? It's too easy for a single person to dominate the more easily obtainable resources right now. The more difficult ones seem to be at closer to the right level (like bricks, blocks, etc.), but they could probably also be increased a little bit.

    2) Randomize the items more: Yes, I LOVE this!! There are alot of food items out there.... why do the projects always ask for the same small set of them?

    3) Give a count-down for when projects will start, in addition to when the next phase starts. This will eliminate the need to camp out at new streets for who-knows-how-long, and give all players more of a chance of getting in at the beginning.

    4) Eliminate the ability to look at the lederboards. As it stands now, you could look at it and see that you're 7th, and decide to stop contributing because you have little chance of being in the top 5. That's no fun. Maybe you could just be able to look at it right when the phase finishes to see where you stood at that time.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I usually don't carry around prepared items, but I have ingredients.  I've found that I can't even get halfway through crafting some items before they're all filled.  It's quite a disappointment to make 20-40 items to donate and not even manage to get one in.
    Posted 17 months ago by Joy La Maru Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Does there HAVE to be a limit on how many trophies are awarded? I'm thinking that people don't necessarily WANT to toss away more resources if they don't have to to get one of the prizes. Is there a way to change the awards to figure out how much gets donated compared to many people are in the area? OK, that's confusing. What I mean is, create some sort of algorithm that reins in project-hogging: something like, if there are 10 people working on a project, and you donate 15% of the needed work/items, you automatically get a trophy with no extra incentive for dumping more.

    Maybe have lower-level tasks that can ONLY be completed by lower-level players... if you have gotten higher than a certain skill level, you CAN'T use your hoe (kind of reverse from only people with Croppery II can do a certain phase).

    Or have projects designed for Level 20 and below, Level 30 and below, etc.? That way, the big dawgs could go duke it out on their own (but the lower levels could still see and marvel and aspire to the huge deeds).

    My goal when working on a project wasn't so much the trophies (I have about a dozen trophy pieces and still not one completed trophy, which is another post in itself) but to leave my mark on Glitch in a permanent way: having my name associated with a street. Perhaps cap the number of streets a single player can be top three on? Or make the list longer (top ten? but that will only be a temporary aid as we get more players).

    Will the projects continue indefinitely? Or somehow change... can you apply somewhere for a building permit and get a bunch of friends together to work on a barnbuilding-type thing to improve your own property (then your name will forever be associated with THAT house)? Or some community improvement like a previous poster recommended (I love the carnival/playground toys idea!). If the projects weren't so scarce, maybe the wealth could be spread more.

    I do hope projects get a little attention from the devs soon... they are a wonderful aspect of Glitch that are getting hammered by the bigger players and yanked out of reach of an increasing number of us.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink
  • At the risk of sounding elitist.. I don't think the projects should be made easier for lower level players. 

    As an alternative to scaling difficulty down, or making the donations less competitive with limits and so on, perhaps (in addition to greater randomization), a third tier of items and work could be added that only >L20 players could participate in. This would allow more people to participate without taking the challenge away from higher level players. As it stands, getting a trophy takes a lot of work and prep, but everyone that participates by donating even one item gets a free imbued TP Script. That's a pretty good reward.

    The game is optimized to level 20, making projects the only game-directed goal that upper level players can really participate in. The work tends to be high skill, but the food phases at least always have lower-level recipes involved (though I ABSOLUTELY agree that more randomization would be better -- same class of items, but more variation). If a lower level player without the skills to make the donations wants to participate and donate ingredients, will I craft the item and give them half or more? Absolutely. But if the difficulty is scaled down, we'll have a hundred or more people at projects rather than "just" 50, and no one will get more than 1%.

    I know Millie and Elian have been working on a playbook--and that they've shared what they know. I know food phases can be counted on to have carpaccios, kebabs, cheese plates, or all of the above. But I also know you don't need to have all of those prepared to make the top 5. The only things I ever come prepared with are butter, cheese, and crystals. Maybe some salt & pepper. I make everything else on site, and have made the top 5 several times. Here's the secret: never make more than 10 items at once. It takes too long and the item is more likely to be full by the time you're finished. The other secret is to specialize: I specialize in food. Gloopy specializes in building. We've both made the top 5 in phases (not always, but often enough) related to our specialty because our bags are optimized to support them. 

    Shoot, I've given away all my secrets ;)
    Posted 17 months ago by Sheepy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree that projects need to be changed up and would think that would be a fairly easy thing to do. I like the idea of a random number of phases; maybe asking for very unexpected items so that people wouldn't just dump in a ton w/out giving others a chance to donate. The last project I worked at people were sharing resources to help others complete items to donate so that work could open. I've been at projects where people teleported together to pick up items they had stored at home; but haven't yet had a chance to go out in a group to gather barnacles/jellisac during a project. Perhaps there could also be a random number of players who get an honorable mention (with a piece of a street trophy) even if they haven't donated in the top 5. That might be a way to level the playing field a bit, give everyone a chance at a trophy. More experienced players could exchange completed items w/a newbie who helps w/raw materials so that they can donate even if they haven't gotten to the skill level to craft what is needed. Actually, I like that idea a lot, and will put it in the idea thread.
    Posted 17 months ago by Gizmospooky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There will always be people who love to Achieve.  Where there is a Leaderboard there will be "obsessed" achievers.  I can't say that this is good or bad.  Each person has their own way of playing and their own enjoyments.  It is a shame that this need to achieve infringes on the enjoyment of others. 

    I have been to many projects and love them.  I am not a high achiever and have no real desire to get to the top of a project Leaderboard.  I do enjoy contributing and I have never been unable to contribute something  that I have in inventory.  I do NOT shop at the Auctions or have friends mail me items.  I contribute what I have or can make on site.  Between Phases I may go for more items and return.

    I do know that new players have difficulty contributing to Projects.  Much of this is due to their lack of skills and their ignorance as to what needs to be done and how to do it.  That can be learned.  I think it would be nice if there was some way very new players could contribute.  I don't know if it would be possible to do but maybe Phase 1 could be for noobs only.  That maybe there would be a way to block anyone over Lev. 10 or 12 from contributing.  items for this phase would include very simple things, fruit, wood, dirt, loam, peat, barnacles, etc.  It would call for nothing that would require more than 2 or 3 items to make.  It could include, for example, Bananas or Whortleberries, etc.  If it is possible for the Devs to program this, it would be a good thing and make the projects fun for all.
    Posted 17 months ago by Brib Annie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The projects in the nostalgia areas were created for the purpose of providing projects that lower level players can work on. They all require items that are easy to obtain, and require large quantities in an area with a time limit so everyone has a chance to contribute. This style already exists, so it is unnecessary to change the regular projects to  match that. Some people prefer the regular projects the way they are--challenging to everyone (including more experienced players) and I wouldn't want them to be dumbed down for the benefit of newbies who won't even be newbies for very much longer.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lots of thoughtful replies here.

    +1 to Sheepy for the third-tier work idea as something to ponder, and for the tips on never making more than 10 items at a time (1-2 if it's powders, in my experience, and I throw in blocks when I have 2-3 collected before making more on-site) ... that also helps to meter the work so that other players can contribute if they've made some as well.

    +1 to Shepherdmoon for mentioning the projects in the nostalgia areas; Sheepy & I talked about that last night when we read this thread originally and that's exactly what I would've mentioned first -- those projects are great as they're usually raw materials and then some work at relatively low levels.  (e.g. when it's "donate fruit" the work is usually something like fruit changing, IIRC)

    One of the best parts of projects is SPECIFICALLY about bringing new people up through the process or getting them involved.  Some things I know a lot of us do when we're at projects making bricks or crystals or...you know, the things that involve SO MANY BARNACLES AND FLIES OMG...is have barnacle parties (everyone can scrape barnies) or folks go off to catch flies, we write scripts/summon/shuttle people around, and most importantly share the wealth.  Case in point: brick making.  Some <15 level folks at recent projects were trying to participate; some had flies, some had talc, some had peat, etc.  I'd collect it from them, make a couple bricks, then parcel out the bricks to people who donated parts of the materials so they could throw it in the pot.  I know I'm not the only one who does this, as many people who have responded here do as well.

    To be clear, I think projects are super the way they are, and see plenty of opportunities for lower level players to contribute.  I don't mean this in a snarky way at ALL, but those of us at higher levels started out doing projects at lower levels (I think I was around 15 or so when I started? Not sure.) and we learned how to work our way up using the players/knowledge/resources around us.  We had mentors.  Lower level players still have that, and there are plenty of us there to mentor.  

    In fact, when a lower level player hits the leaderboard and gets an extra reward, the biggest cheers are often from the higher level players because it's pretty cool to see a player grow like that.  And, glee is good.  We're all building the world the way we can, one bit at a time.
    Posted 17 months ago by Gloopy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i love to contribute to the projects, but i haven't been able to get into the top five in quite a while.  It does seem like people have a whole system down where than can just fill the project request ultra fast.  I have built the dirt trophy and only need the top pieces of the other ones, but i don't feel like i'm going to get the chance to earn them (or even buy them) before the reset...

    maybe a system could be put into place where once you hit the top five or ten your ability to donate is disabled or greyed out somehow, giving the other players a chance to get some donations in and share in the wealth?  If somebody overtakes you and pushes you down to eleven or greater then you would be able to donate again to try and put yourself back into the top.  that opens up a whole new strategy almost like auction sniping and maybe it would be more fun and fair and draw the projects out a little???
    Posted 17 months ago by IxÆoN Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow this really has gotten crazy! I finally ventured outside ol my new floaty home for the first time all test to check on projects. Waited 10 minutes, the project opened, my attention was elsewhere for a moment, I looked back and the project was at 33%! One person had filled in all three top items in the soirée phase and work was open before I could even see what was needed. The consensus at the time was that this was, as one glitch put it, anti-fun.
    Posted 17 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 to projects not having to be suitable for low level players.

    However, I don't consider myself a newbie anymore, am lvl 22, and have only gotten a tiny bit in 2 or 3 tests ago. Yesterday I wanted to take a look at a new project, but it went so fast that by the time I got there it was done. It's just hard to chip in. I would love to work on a project if only once, just for the experience. I want to help, but if it requires me having to rush or race others I like it a lot less (I am not good at that.) At this point, I can only dream of ever getting even a chip of a trophy. :(

    I'm slow in exploring and travelling, I get sidetracked a lot and sometimes am hardly able to move due to excessive chatting. So yesterday was my first time in nostalgia area, which I loved!
    + in a debuff "Project cooldown": if you made it to the top 5 of a project, you have a debuff which prevents you from participating in the next project. (Sort of like IxÆoN suggested)
    + Higher quantity of everything: For harder area's, the quantity should go up. (Like the nostalgia areas).
    + Upgrade projects for lower level/skilled players: Fancying up a street (adding the background flowers, rocks, trees, grass) can only by done by players below level 30 or WITHOUT a certain skill. (This could also be an incentive to unlearn stuff.)
    Posted 17 months ago by Miriamele Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As a late Alpha tester I wasn't able to help much in the early projects. I looked forward to Beta when we were all on a level playing field and then I really enjoyed the projects, for a while. 

    But now I rarely go near them, I've been there too and seen sections fill immediately it opened by one or two people, while I was still clicking to donate what I had..no fun at all and I walked away several times, somewhat disillusioned. 

    Sorry but I don't find anything social about the projects now, they seem to be finished almost before you can blink and I feel my bit of input, like many others obviously isn't missed.
    Posted 17 months ago by Teena Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With all due respect to all, I have to say that some of the characterizations of projects that I'm seeing here just don't match up with what I've experienced in the last three months of playing.  I've seen project phases that go by in 15 minutes, and phases that drag on for hours (8 to 24 in some instances).  I've seen sub-level-15 level players get in the top 3, and I've seen sub-level-15 players not be able to do a darn thing but immediately pipe up and say "how can I help? what can I do to be able to contribute?" at which time people help these players figure out some way that they can contribute that both a) leverages the skillsets they have and b) gives them the opportunity to learn some of the ways that players who do participate in projects a lot manage their gameplay. 

    Given that sort of mentoring, which I described in a post above as well, players can choose to either keep at project work or not, or find a way to work projects in to the manner of game play that they enjoy.  I would also respectfully suggest that if you are a player standing at a project and are frustrated or want to contribute something or want something different to happen: say so in the local chat.  I sure can't speak for everyone, but I know that personally if I were at a project phase that required...oh, for the sake of argument let's just say crystals...and a player had a bag of crystals at home and saw in the New Streets chat that a phase opened up that needed crystals but they were 17 streets away, then said "I'm on my way," well, by golly I'd wait until that player got there to throw those crystals into the bucket so they had the opportunity to get the reward for that hard work.  But if it turns out that's not what the rest of the community-at-the-project wants, and the player misses the chance, then they know a) that configuration of workers maybe wasn't the one for them and b) they're pretty dang close to a project that will open up and need that resource again.  

    IMHO, that's one of the things that makes it a game -- the opportunity to fail and try again.  And believe me, as someone who does a lot of projects and hits leaderboards in some phases and never sniffs it in others, there's plenty of room to succeed and fail at projects.  And, as it's a game, players necessarily get better at certain things as they progress in the skill trees, gain experience in the world, and so on.

    I am 100% positive of something, though: if the Tiny Speck data scientist determines an inherent flaw in the design of the projects such that projects are not games and instead are rote drudgery completed by a small percentage of users, the projects will change in their configuration.

    In the end, though, I think players just have to figure out for themselves if projects -- and all that entails (which for me means: resource gathering, some planning, acknowledgement of skillsets and determinations of what you do and do not want to contribute, monitoring of New Streets and local chat so that you know when phases are starting and how to coordinate them in your game play, etc) -- are really what you want to do.  I mean, I love projects, and some days it's not what I want to do. That doesn't mean they're flawed. Or that I am. :)
    Posted 17 months ago by Gloopy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Gloopy
    Posted 17 months ago by Toxic Moonie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It seems things were a little better this test due to a few more unpredictable phases. I still think the quantities on the regular projects need to be increased, but I think the the levels at the nostalgia projects are perfect. We could also use a bit more variety, but this test was a good step in the right direction. I still disagree that any limits should be placed on who can contribute to what.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Some ideas:
    - Max donation per x seconds (for example if there were 500 cheese plates needed, a person can donate however many they want to or have, but they can only donate x at a time, get a debuff that makes them wait say, 20 seconds or something before donating that same item again. Meanwhile they can donate something else or better yet, in the spirit of street projects, make more items from scratch!)
    - All items have to be created on site and after the project opens
    - Just more variety would spice it up so people don't know exactly what is needed and make 500 food beforehand (I love that there were some new ones this test. "Down the Rabbit Hole"? GENIUS!!)
    - Have a special task [low level skill] for someone or some people under a certain level (if everything else is done then anyone can do this task, because there may not be a low level person there) so new players can contribute as well

    Just throwing some thoughts out there. They're not perfect ideas but it may be nice to implement them. It's just discouraging for someone to go all the way out into these far out areas and have things filled up before they even get a chance to click on it.

    On a happier note though, I love the street project building community! This test was my first time contributing to building new streets, but I've already met tons of lovely people.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lung Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "All items have to be created on site and after the project opens"

    My first thought on reading that suggestion is, that would disproportionately impact projects located in Ancestral Lands, which are already at crawling speed because of Overwhelming Ancestral Nostalgia. It would also limit the participation of any players who can't teleport in. Having spent a good deal of their time limit just walking to Xalanga, they might not have enough time for lots of materials creation. Imagine the frustration of setting your fruit changer to go, then getting kicked out before you can contribute all those whortleberries!

    I like your idea to ensure participation opportunities for low-level players -- we were all there once, and will be again after the world wipe! In keeping with that, I submit that teleportation is something else newbies can't yet do, or at least not a lot (if the limit on TP Targets don't get ya, the energy cost will!), or at least not without spending cash; and New Streets shouldn't exclude either F2P or low-level characters, even when they're in the Ancestral Lands.
    Posted 17 months ago by Vortexae Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @vortexae
    Oh, I suppose I didn't think of that for ancestral areas. To be honest I ignore those areas because the debuff is enough of a deterrent for me to avoid it. I suppose that idea won't work, but perhaps some of the others ideas suggested in this thread will.

    There are a lot of good ideas in this thread- hopefully some of them will be implemented! It's no good when a community building task that a lot of people like to contribute turns anti-fun.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lung Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't spend a lot of time on projects - I only do enough to get a script. Hanging about between phases bores me. I do enjoy the cooperative aspects of them though - sharing resources to get bricks built etc.
    +1 for the idea of hugely increasing the resource amounts in the first phase, and 
    +1 for the idea of having tasks that only lower level players can do. That would end up with the high level project specialists actively recruiting and encouraging lower level players. 
    The projects have been opening very quickly lately, and although I like the idea of a larger world to explore, I think they could be slowed down a bit.
    Posted 17 months ago by Momo McGlitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's wonderful to see so many great ideas here. I love that people are concerned about keeping things fun, fair, and still challenging.

    I'd like to bring up my original cause for concern again, which is the recurrence of the same sets of items and skills, sometimes under varying names. For instance, I was excited about "Down the Rabbit Hole," but it turned out to be an old set: 327 Oaty Cakes, 540 Secret Sauces, 30 Caterpillars, 125 Bubble Teas, 152 Divine Crepes, and 89 Sneeze Powders - AKA "Eat, Mostly" or "Miscellaneous." All told, I have found 18 sets, many of which share the same items. 

    The concern is that knowing these sets ahead of time makes it much easier for players with this advantage to make project items before other contributors. All you need is the phase name, and you could begin prepping for phase 4 once a project begins. You could also prepare the most commonly needed items based on this information, and then jump into a project when you know they will be used. You can even profit from using the auction house by anticipating people's needs for project items in the next hour.

    So here is my current quandary: should I post my "playbook" for everyone to see? As Millie points out, on the one hand, it could help to level the field, but on the other, it might increase the number of campers. If, as the devs say, the street projects are here to stay, I imagine that this information will eventually be collected and shared. With a larger number of new players vying for trophies, I believe that camping (of the "anti-fun" variety) will be an inevitability, but I don't want it to happen post-beta or in beta. My hope is that the devs will at least change the variability of street project items, but in the meantime... what to do? 
    Posted 17 months ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Unless the items are more varied it will always be the same as far as I can see. I went to a couple of projects today and managed to donate some, but still those in the know donated ie:100 cheese platter, various drinks etc within seconds of the phase opening.. just makes it feel clicky to me, rather than social. 
    I liked it when we stood around making stuff, I even had a small taste of that today making some fertilidust, which for some reason wasn't immediately covered.
    What to do? ...guess I'll just go back to minding my own business, doing my own thing...
    Posted 17 months ago by Teena Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the devs do need to understand the potential danger of failing to introduce randomization to projects post-launch, and your post outlines that beautifully, Melody (not to mention all those before it!).  

    The dilemma at hand is an interesting one.  Release the playbook, and potentially exacerbate a concerning problem (but also putting more pressure on the devs to introduce randomization), or allow things to continue the way they are, only to have the problem grow slowly but surely as we approach launch (while, post-launch, things potentially get really bad). 

    While I don't really want to make the problem worse in any way (I actually just changed my mind on the subject, and deleted a whole paragraph of reasoning!), I do believe that you should think in the long-term and release the playbook.  Hopefully it will help get the problem solved before, rather than after launch and sooner, rather than later.  

    I now enjoy neglected projects with few contributors more than I did the crowded gatherings of Glitches, simply because I know I have a chance to contribute.  Projects' collaborative potential must be preserved.  For me, they have been vital to enabling community awareness and game friendships in a way I've never experienced in other games and other websites. Individual competition may be inevitable (and, hey, it's part of projects themselves), but it should not be allowed to overrun projects in this fashion.  As such, I vote for release.  

    In the end, though, it's entirely your decision to make, Melody.  Thanks so much for allowing us some input! :D
    Posted 17 months ago by Jannisary Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Now that there's a spreadsheet, it's just a mechanical thing - the first three people can dump stuff and the project finishes in less than a minute.  It's a waste of anyone else's time even to be there.

    Something must be done to randomize it or make it more of a collaborative process.
    Posted 17 months ago by Tradescantia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I will admit that I wanted a street trophy. I didn't care which one it was I just wanted one. I see now that I don't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting one either.
    The last project I was on had one person contributing 20% within the first minute it opened. I hung around for the next phase of the project. The same thing happened. There was nothing to indicate that street building was a 'community' project. I was so disgusted I left not only the project but the game itself.
    I offer no ideas to change it. There have been plenty of really good suggestions already made that can include everyone. I just know something has to change in order to bring back the feel of a 'community' project and give everyone a chance.
    I guess it isn't about how you play the game. It's about winning.
    Posted 17 months ago by Ruby Specklebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yea, I tried projects again today, because I'm over trying to sell my firebog products on auction as they just get scooped up by those who would resell at ridiculous prices to fleece the project-builders.  Although to that end, I noticed during the project that needed firebog products, these items were not selling on auction (so, they are priced too high).

    At any rate, I was quite proud of myself for making a slew of bricks and blocks and crystals, waited around at a project until that phase came up, contributed and *boom*, it still wasn't enough to get the trophy piece I wanted and that project went into work phase within ten minutes.  That was enough to make me back off projects again. 

    The problem with randomization is making a ton of firebog stuff and never knowing when it will be needed.  Auction it and you end up either having to overprice since the folks who are also snatch up lower prices in order to monopolize the auctions.  Yuck.  It's discouraging for the way I want to play.

    So... back to my old suggestion that many derided as killing the spirit of community: let us sign up for projects.  I go to the crocs, get a permit, then get a crew together, then we get assigned to a project.  I can either hit up my friends to participate and/or hit up strangers if my crew isn't big enough.  Say you need between 10 and 20 people for a project.  Once you hit 10, you can start; if you get up to 20, you can't bring on anymore people.  Then, you just build away and split up the proceeds when it's done.  The trophy goes to the leader of the project, with the top 3 contributors also getting building permits so that they can lead other projects.  As for 'recipe books' - just don't let us know what the next phase is.  You say there won't be enough projects to accommodate all the people?  Sure - enable projects to open up new housing tracts or group halls.

    Anyway, that is just one idea, but something has to give, because the current way is really is not satisfying in the least and has too many unintended consequences.  People hardly even bother anymore using New Streets chat for status updates since it all gets filled up as soon as it opens anyway.
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ruby, I'm sorry you had that experience: believe it or not, it is actually not typical for one person to complete 20% of the project in the first few seconds. This only happens when the project calls for large numbers of very easy to obtain things that everyone has a ton of (like currants, meat, milk, spices, etc.). In that case, whoever is the fastest clicks on "max" and donates enough to fill the whole requirement all at once. Since the percentage of the project you complete is based on the total number of items donated, regardless of their kind, this throws them to #1 automatically, and then they can just sit back and relax because no one will be able to catch up. I do believe this is a problem, and it can be solved in two ways. One is to drastically increase the total number required for these items (i.e. 1,000,000 currants instead of 10,000) so no one person will be able to dominate it. It will still fill very quickly, but at least more people will be able to contribute. The other I describe below:

    I offer the following new suggestion, which will solve alot of the problems people have been complaining about: make more complicated items worth more toward the total donation percentage. There is really no reason why donating one plank of wood should be worth the same as donating one brick. The latter is WAY more difficult to obtain, and the numbers should reflect this. Right now, if I have the choice of donating all of my barnacles, or making crystals out of them, it is far smarter for me to just donate the barnacles. Hmmmm.... get credit for donating 49 items by throwing in that many barnacles, or credit for donating 7 items by turning them into crystals (plus losing 7 full jars of fireflies). Sounds like a no-brainer...
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I share some of the same frustrations with projects. I stopped by a few this test and participated a bit. I'm not a trophy hunter (though I will admit to building a stockpile of stuff in the hopes that one day I may be) and just give what I can with what I have on me both to help out and to get a script. At one point, I was wandering around and saw that a phase had just opened and by the time I got there (I was maybe 5 streets away), one section was already on work and a few were talking about how long it was taking... as if 15 minutes was an unreasonable amount of time for a project to take to finish. The predictability (for those who have gathered or been told the patterns) and the short duration reduces some of teamwork aspect of it. Clearly they're attracting a bit of a community - one of the reasons they finish so quickly is because there are so many willing & wanting to help out. But where is the enjoyment of coming together and completing a task if there's no real effort involved in making it happen? Sure it's fun to see & meet fellow glitches, but it seems like many of us are yearning for more than that from the projects.

    I don't have any real ideas for improvement, but wholeheartedly support those coming up with ideas (good or bad, perhaps they'll lead somewhere :)). 
    Posted 17 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd agree with your idea, Sheperdmoon, except that you can easily buy (albeit at overwrought prices) bricks and crystals on auction with no skill involved.
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't agree that it's necessary to get low level players involved in projects. They have enough stuff to do: the number one complaint I hear from low level players is that the game is overwhelming. No need to make it worse by adding yet more to their plate. I think it's fine the way it is: they discover projects later, when they've explored alot and gotten the basics down pat. They start out not being able to do much, but once they've learned more skills and had more practice, they have an equal chance at competing with the senior players. There is nothing wrong with having elements to a game that only experienced players can excel at. With just a little bit of time and effort, everyone can become a high level player. It's not in the least bit discriminatory, and it gives people a reason to stick around and get better (rather than allowing them to accomplish everything possible right off the bat, get bored, and leave the game forever).
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's fine zeeberk: the extra cost involved should have some added reward.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Seeing where projecting has gone, I say +10 to zeeberk's idea of signing up for projects and doing it with people you know. Especially when building houses/group halls (if/when that comes to pass).
    Posted 17 months ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Why not give players less than level 15 (or so) a one minute head start on projects?
    Posted 17 months ago by Smackem Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Shepherdmoon, there is already some scaling of credit for various objects, though I don't know any specific numbers.  But the project is definitely not just counting how many of something you put in.  A building permit is worth way more than a cosmapolitan, which is certainly worth more than a plank.
    Posted 17 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think zeeberk's idea has the potential to become VERY clique-y/in-group-y.  Don't like it at all.  That is a way to make people feel incredibly excluded.
    Posted 17 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
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