Like the Unlearn skills they don't look quite finished yet (zero time to learn and no requirements or affiliations). However, looks like new destinations, much reduced cool downs and the uber-cool sounding "Summon" ability...
Trav, I am looking at it like a tax. If you make $100 or $1,000,000 your garnishment is different but your percentage is the same. The difference is you don't have to teleport. You can choose to walk and not pay at all.
You don't get bonuses for stuff at higher levels... you get bonuses for stuff at higher skills. Skills learned has absolutely nothing to do with Levels obtained, that's based on time and your play style.
Hence, people who spend time actually doing stuff will be the recipients of teleportation negatives (regardless of where in their life they learn to teleport or how frequently they use it)... because while teleporting makes it easier to get around, we'll penalize the people who are of a higher level who are not necessarily the people moving around via teleportation all day, but because they are of a higher level and have more energy capacity and can generate more coin, and people of a higher level should move around less than people of a lower level because they can simply purchase things?
Just looking at the long view here... we're talking Level 20 and 50, and while it may seem somewhat annoying for people to listen to the position of the higher level player be argued - you too will be a higher level player in a few short months. Some thought has to be given to the landscape at level 80 or 100+. I'd really like to see this game continue to where players are reaching that point, over a walking land of zombies due to a level cap. Months down the road, higher level players shouldn't be crippled by progressive mechanics.
Adding: Mary... I have no issues with paying taxes for earning more coin. Your analogy translates to a taxing my energy because I've gained more experience (different metobolics)... not more skills, not more cash, not more uses with the skill, not even more time spent playing. So the high level player should be forced to use more energy for actions simply because they potentially might genereate more energy to use? Should high level players also be forced to pay higher market prices simply because they have the potential to earn more? Just saying, everyone should be able to see the same benefit/effort/work from anyone else with the same skill.
PS: A less pleasant translation... my skill as a player/xp (out-of-game/end result) is being 'taxed' in-game if I opt to utilize in-game skills.
To me it's basically saying you should pay more highway taxes each year you are on this planet, just because you've managed to know a little more - no matter the life choices.
(Just don't think people would be as impressed if it were the market taxes sliding up with each level, even though level/cash are more closely related... who knows, could be that happens too as a way to reduce the spending power of a high level player)
This whole issue could be solved if higher level players got higher returns on everything (like nibbling piggies, etc.). Then it would make sense to penalize them more for certain things (like teleportation).
Shepherdmoon, the argument is that because the player is higher level they *must* have more skill and therefore more options... options doesn't equal additional reward. A Level 5 with AK 5 completes the same number of actions, uses the same energy, gets the same rewards, the same meats, and the same chance at a bonus at a Level 15 with AK 5, or a Level 50 with AK 5 (same holds true with any skill)... difference is, the Level 15 will need to repeat the process twice, and the Level 50 5x to teleport to teleport home if they all have Tele 1.
There's got to be a skill-related solution to keep a skill-related balance.
(Just some quick ideas... a modifier based on other skills learned because it's a lot to keep track of, a modifier based on lifetime teleports so it costs more the more you use it, a modifier based on energy already spent in the day because teleporting gets more exhausting as the day goes by, time/energy costs related to the distance being traveled or the last time you were there... all of these make more sense than basing it off the level itself)
I understand that, Travinara. That's why I said that adding an additional bonus for higher levels will help to balance the level penalty applied for teleportation costs.
Travinara, I understand (mostly) what you're saying — I just also disagree. It is not accurate to say teleportation costs more "because" a player is "older". You don't level up simply by having an account open.
With the exception of coins (which DO increase in value as you level up) there is almost no way to get XP without some other benefit — items, currants, energy, etc. But, leveling up to 55 with coins alone would take at least years (maybe decades). So, higher level players have more accumulated wealth. So, replenishing energy is easier.
Higher level players are also very likely to have more skills and to have been able to learn them faster (since they will have received more favor as well). This also makes it easier to buy/create energy.
Further, higher level players have a larger energy *capacity*, which makes everything easier. As others have pointed out, while the absolute amount of energy used is greater at a higher level, the additional capacity means that there is still plenty of energy left to do stuff once you arrive (indeed, the higher level players have more energy left over in absolute terms since the percentage is the same).
Finally, if your calculations tell you it does not make sense to teleport then ... don't teleport? You could instead use the subways (or, in the future, other public transportation).
Having to make that choice would be a good thing: If the game has no meaningful decisions, it won't be fun for anyone. It may seem like making things easier increases the fun (and it does when things are *much* too hard) but it is not a good general principle since it tends towards the game consisting of a single button labeled "win". Push it, game over.
So old folks need to stay at home or take the bus? Not liking the whole 'if want to talk about the potential flaws then don't use the skill' vibe. Is it somehow wrong of me to want to have some idea how playable this game is going to be 12 months down the road?
I get what you're saying that higher level players have the potential to restock faster, but it's no easier on them to than another player of a different level of the same skill - it's actually more difficult... you have to put more work into recovering. As in, it's going to *also* cost me more energy to do all of the gathering because I have a greater distance to recover from, a by-product of which is more xp, perpetuating the problem. So not only am I trying to recover the whopping energy difference, I'm spending as much of an energy difference to recover the teleport energy difference.
No, you don't gain levels simply by sitting on an account - but you can gain skills. This methodology penalizes the frequent player, who spends the time learning skills actually doing things. The player who logs in once a day and spends the down time learning skills will definitely have a much easier time of things.
The inability to move around, and being penalized for actually playing the game really sits funny. Can I get an Unlearn Level skill? I mean it really does de-motivate to do well in the game.
No-No 24x7... all the fun of playing - none of the xp!
Stood said "You could instead use the subways (or, in the future, other public transportation)."
Oooh--ooh! What does that mean?! What future public transportation is coming? I can't even imagine what else there would be besides the subway... something faster I suppose (Monorails? Supersonic jets? Magma submarines through the interior of the world? Flying magic monkeys?... I guess I could imagine it...)
On a completely and utterly different note, I do think that attaining higher levels should mean focusing on higher level aspects of the game, not being forced to spend more time doing repetitive menial tasks than we had to at lower levels (i.e., nibbling endless piggies, harvesting endless trees and gardening--there is so much more to do than that, and the higher level players have more opportunity to participate in the more interesting aspects, like street building and solving difficult tower quests, or making up their own social events and individual goals...)
Have the Unlearn skills been discussed elsewhere? Maybe it's because I'm yet to teleport that I'm not jumping on that.
Unlearn seems to strongly imply the skills you can learn will be limited (perhaps you'll have more slots at higher levels). I like that idea. I like having to specialise, and not to simply be choosing what you learn first. Currently it feels as though it would only take a few more weekends (after only having played for two already) and I'd have caught up with everything on the tree. Not so now, after the new skills, but it would have been the case.
Also, specialisation encourages multiple characters, which, if that's going to be a subscriber-only option, is a great way to drive subscriptions.
Beechamel, as you learn more skills you begin to get a penalty based on the number of skills you know, so each new skill takes alot longer to learn. This adds up exponentially, and can get really bad (especially as the skill tree grows). This is why the "unlearn skills" exist, so you can remove skills you realized you didn't need after-all to make new skills you think you might actually want take substantially less time to learn.
beechamel, limited only in the sense that as more and more skills get added and you learn more and more of them, it will take longer and longer to learn new ones. They have stated (somewhere, I forget) that there are many many more skills coming. So if you WISH to specialize and not take forever, you have the option to learn Unlearning so you can lower the compounded % penalty. OR you have the option of taking the time (and donating to shrines, of course).
Ahhh. I'd thought I'd noticed a planned future skill jump up in cost, but it was soon enough after the Better Learning skill that I couldn't remember the original cost for sure. Say you've got virtually all of them so far, what would your last skill be costing? I have only probably a third, and my most expensive skill on the list is showing up as over 6 days.
beechamel, I have 14 more skills to learn (counting BA III) and have Better Learning V.
BA3 (which is impossible to learn right now anyway) would take me 15 day 15 hours 47 minutes and 12 seconds.
And, don't quote me because I don't remember what thread I read this or even how to find it and I may be remembering it totally wrong, they only have around half the planned skills up. So... yes. The days gets daunting.
I wonder if you unlearn like mining 1. would it effect mining 2, 3, 4? Then you could just keep the newest skill and unlearn all the steps it took to get there. Does this sound right???
xoxJulie, I am 95% positive they mentioned that you cannot.
The simplest way to say it (I think) would be you cannot Unlearn any skill that is a prerequisite for another skill you have.
It should cost the same for everybody to teleport. There isn't one legitimate reason for anyone to pay more for transportation than the person standing next to them. In currants or energy.
I feel like I and others have been pretty clear. I'm sorry that they don;t makes sense to you. Julie, my feelings are slightly hurt by your language and tone... but it is the internet so there you go. I'll get over it quickly enough.
Well I am sorry if I have hurt anybody's feelings. I was just thinking if you take a trip on a train or plane everybody should pay the same price. But then again they have mileage thingees and special prices at certain times for planes so who knows what anyone is really paying. It just seems so messy trying to figure out if you can teleport find out you do not have enough energy and go to hell for it. Maybe I should try no no and not worry about things that haven't even happened. Sorry again
Thanks for setting me straight on the unlearn requirements, it is logical to not unlearn a prerequisite unless the whole skill was unlearned at the same time.
Following on a teleport will cost both people the appropriate capacity % energy for their skills, but other than a social aspect I don't see why it would.
I asked if we'd still be able to follow during teleportation, and no one answered. My guess is "we don't know yet."
Earlier in this thread, stoot said that the energy costs will be 33% to 10%, though perhaps that has changed? I'd like to see the numbers in the skill descriptions, since they're a motivating factor. Right now it seems most practical to learn all five skills before using them much.
Also: can we use T5 twice per day, or twice per game day?
Stoot said that the previous 33% cost had already been lowered to 10% cost
Note to all: the percentages you're quoting are a bit out of date — they were lowered a bit already (33% down to 10%) and will work with the new %s when launched.)
It does sound like it will remain a %... just not as large as the temp suggestions suggested.
I don't think I can explain why it makes sense to me on a larger-game-total-balance issue any better than I have without seeing it in play and how it "feels." BUT, if you are looking for an in game world explanation, I can come up with one (that is totally made up):
When you teleport, you are moving your essence and the essence of all of your stuff through the ether of the Giants minds. "Older" more experienced Glitches have "larger" and "heavier" essences. Energy is like metaphysical luggage. Or, maybe even more appropriately, fuel on a rocket going into orbit. The more fuel you have, the more mass you are moving so the more fuel you have to expend to reach escape velocity. Metaphysically, so don't try to poke holes in my made up Giants physics.
Or, an alternate explanation, Lem, Giant in charge of transportation and navigation, hates old people. He is a paranoid Giant and is worried that one day Glitches will become too powerful and become a Giant. Fair? No. But who ever said the Giants were fair?
Actually it's experience he doesn't like. It's your level that increases your energy capacity, which is itself increased by experience and in turn sets the teleportation costs. Skills and age are 'mostly' unrelated directly to experience.
In that a player who just learns skills could be both old and skilful, but not experienced.
And a player who doesn't maximise his learning could be old and experienced but not skilful.
Can a player easily be skilful and experienced without being old though? I guess it's relative...
i don't mind the "level tax" idea but methinks stoot needs to play his own game more : [
currently, the "increased energy capacity" doesn't let a player do anything more easily, which anyone who plays the game at a high level knows.
you carry around energy with you in the form of food. it barely matters how big your "energy tank" is. after you teleport to a project it doesn't matter how much energy you have left in your energy tank, it matters how much food you have in your bag.
still, i don't mind the "level tax" because my personal playing strategy has been to keep my level as low as possible compared to my capabilities... so tax away! i will be at an advantage over other players due to my XP avoidance strategies : ]
and c'mon .. doesn't anyone think it is both cool and hilarious that glitch might be the only game ever where players avoid leveling at all costs because levels confer no real benefits, only punishments?
that's the sort of humour and innovative gameplay that makes glitch stand out!
it is a good thing!
a game where the best players are desperately trying to unlearn skills and avoid XP at all costs is kinda cute, one must admit.
the only worrying thing is where stoot thought that having a bigger energy tank somehow compensates for anything, coz we all know that's not how it works .. but i'll take any interesting gameplay elements even if they are unintentional.
plus the skill unlearning clearly is intentional and xp avoidance fits very nicely beside that.