Topic

Do we really want these changes with the trees??

There's been a couple of major changes in the tree ecology since reset, and I'm wondering whether they reflect what the community wants or more reflect the desires of just a few.

1)  Someone is working their way through Ix replacing spice plants with gas plants.  Last I looked Groddle Ladder, Baby Steps and G. C. Way were 100% gas while Flipside was half and half.  East and West Spice are still 100% spice, but overall Ix is now nearly 50% gas.  I have no idea whether the person who is doing this intends to keep going with this transition or whether they are about done, thinking that Ix should be equally represented by gas and spice.  Does anyone want to own up to being involved in this and share their rationale?  While I have nothing against gas plants per se, Ix has always (at least as far back as I go) been spice, and, as a Glitch professional chef who consumes a tremendous amount of spice to make the meals that keep the miners mining, I have made nearly daily forays through Ix to gather the spice my cooking requires.  I have to teleport in to do my gathering, and I am personally distressed to be able to gather only half as much spice per trip.  What do others think?

2)  My home is in Salatu, and (to the best of my knowledg) the heights of Salatu have always been bubble tree country.  However, since the reset, there appear to be nothing but fruit and bean trees throughout the region.  Since I didn't get back to Salatu for several days after reset, I don't know whether these trees were here at the start, were planted into patches, or were planted after killing off bubble trees.  This issue is not nearly as serious as the Ix situation, but I personally feel the bubble tree is the natural denizen of the heights (as it was before reset), and, frankly, I find that fruit trees high in the mountains look positively bizarre.  They would never survive in the thin, cold air.  Your opinion?

Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Maybe if there were some projects that allowed people to create original things that could be added to the completed project/art installation then then people who want to leave their mark on the world would be less inclined to go around killing and replacing trees in an effort to make things look the way they want?

    I'm assuming the person or persons who are doing this are motivated by some aesthetic ideal and enjoy seeing how they have changed the look of the world.    I was thinking that it would be nice if I could just log on for a few minutes every day and work on making something with all my crystals, something original that could be contributed to a permanent art installation.   
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There will always be people planting, killing and replanting. Cannot do anything against is, regardless of what your (or my) opinion is.

    [in Character]
    That's why there is La resistance, to restore balance, we replant for money!
    [/IC]
    Personally, I don't mind a few gas plants in IX, or a gas plant in an  entire street with spice plants. Only spice is boring.
    Posted 15 months ago by Miriamele Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Personally I miss having a few spice trees in G. C. Way, but as long as East and West Spice are loaded with them, I'm not feeling like warring.
    Posted 15 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ...and are there other places besides Ix and Kalavanna where spice will grow? Cause gas will grow in a number of areas.
    Posted 15 months ago by La_La Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Spice also grows in the bog regions.  However, other than in Ix there are just one or maybe two per street so it takes a lot longer to wander around and gather them.  For a cook spice is a commodity, but you can't buy it from a vendor. It's always been possible to stock up on a quick trip to Ix, and it would be a bit of a pain to have to spend a lot of time just for this one ingredient.  The other food trees, bean and fruit, are available in quantity in Groddle Isle, often 3 or 4 to a street, so can be relatively quickly gathered.
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hawkwell --  Maybe we can get a group together to reforest  ;)
    Posted 15 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Right, g33kgurrl, though, being an excessively peaceable sort of dude, I'm hoping to avoid nuclear tree war.  It would be so cool if whoever is doing the gas planting would check in with something like, "Hey, I understand your issues.  I didn't realize.  Let's get together and work something out."  Obviously, besides being an excessively peaceable sort of dude, I am also a freaking pie-in-the-sky optimist!
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was personally shocked and dismayed that there can now be other than bubble trees planted in Kajuu :(
    Posted 15 months ago by Sheepy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Let's counter the gas takeover by not permitting anymore than 1 gas plant per Ix street. Take bottles of poison with you and poison any excess gas plants you see. I will do the same.
    Posted 15 months ago by geoffreak Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Red alert!  Red alert!  Incoming missiles on radar screen!!!!!
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When someone is systematically killing all the spice in Ix, replanting gas, I think they are just trying to provoke and start another "tree war". Ignore it and they will lose interest.
    Posted 15 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When I first started, about half the trees in Ix were spice and the other half gas.  East and West Spice were pure spice, and everything else was mostly gas with a few bubbles mixed in.

    Is there some reason that one style of play should totally control  what's planted in a region, when there are multiple regions for all the types of trees?

    Or is it ok for players who need gas to have to trek off to further lands because someone finds it more  convenient to have all their spice trees in a region, to the exclusion of everyone else?

    I guess cooks finding it a pain not to have everything in one spot is sufficient justification for other players not to be allowed to plant any other kind of tree there.
    Posted 15 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yep, we can all carry poison and antidote.  It's pretty easy since there are down times when the place is pretty empty, and you can nurse the gas and bubble plants along without interference.

    If the griefers who think that they can control an area are up for it, so are the people who like diversity.  There's already an active group working to keep the options open for everyone, not just one style of player.  You can't buy gas or bubbles from a vendor either.
    Posted 15 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Honestly, I was a cook last time too, and was still disappointed that Ix turned into All Spice, All The Time.
    I need gas for other projects. As long as East Spice and West Spice are all spice, I don't really care much what happens to the other part, but cooks need to keep in mind that there are people who need gas just as much as you need spice, and they are just as hard to find elsewhere as spice trees are.

    Personally, I feel like Ix should be about 50-50, it is called compromising and it is a good thing :)
    But I know from experience that the Spice followers won't let that happen, so I have been saving every single gas I get for when I know I will need them (for seasoning eggs + beans)

    At the very least, leave them one (good-sized) street, ok? Otherwise it's just totalitarianism.

    Edit: Windborn, some bubble trees seem to survive in groddle meadow now, which is right near Ix. I never thought bubble trees were an appropriate tree for Ix (And I use bubbles all the time, just like spice and gas) and now that they are actually easier to find (their habitat has been expanded) there isn't any reason to take up the super rare spice+gas-able patches with bubble trees. There are bubble trees within two streets of Ix now, so you can just do a multipurpose trip.
    Posted 15 months ago by Biohazard Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Windborn:  Since my OP and additional comment are the only posts here prior to yours that mention cooking, I have to assume that your attack on cooks is pointed at me.  Do you actually remember what my post said?  Let me remind you: 

     "There's been a couple of major changes in the tree ecology since reset, and I'm wondering whether they reflect what the community wants or more reflect the desires of just a few."

    "I am personally distressed to be able to gather only half as much spice per trip.  What do others think?"

    Your response?

    "I guess cooks finding it a pain not to have everything in one spot is sufficient justification for other players not to be allowed to plant any other kind of tree there."

    Also from your posts I gather that for someone to go into an area and change the variety of half the trees without any notification or seeking of community input is what it means to be part of "an active group working to keep the options open for everyone,"  while my raising the question of what the community as a whole wants makes me one of "the griefers who think that they can control an area."

    Your apology is humbly awaited.

    - Hawkwell
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I finally got Botany back. I have more than enough $$$ to buy seeds and poison again as well. I'm just busy with other things rather than Glitch. But the Spicers of Ix will prevail. Logic will prevail.

    AFAIK, Ix is the only place where Spice is available in large amounts. Yes, as HW mentioned, there is Spice in some of the bog areas. It is few and far between, and it competes with Gas and Egg plants alike. To go there for Spice is a waste of time.

    Ix, being the only place for Spice, should be all spice all the time. There are areas where we can plant plenty of Gas. More Gas than tree plots in Ix.  This is a totally fair compromise that works for everyone and eliminates any sort of conflict. In fact, it creates a way for people to accumulate more of both. Spicers of Ix should be encourages to plant Gas elsewhere.

    What about the argument that other areas are 'far' away? Well allow me to retort. It seems that one you have T4, distance doesn't matter. Is Gas useful to you such that you regularly need it and can't waste T4s on it? Bind a point in Besara (or another Gas-centric region.) Does anyone not get Teleportation? I doubt it.

    And why is Ix considered closer anyways? If your Home is in Besara... isn't Gas then close to you? Buy a Home in Gas Nation if you are a Gasser. If not, the Subway bridges all areas. Teleportation puts all areas next to one another.

    I can't think of a logical reason to have Gas in Ix. Tell me one, and maybe we can go from there. But until then, Gas in Besara, Spice in Ix is a very good solution. Everyone wins.

    Edit

    HawkWell, I'm pretty sure she's talking about me as the griefer. So don't worry.

    Late Edit:
    Leaving post for historical purposes? but just wanted to let everyone know that now we can't have Gas in Besara. So the dispute will continue. Going to encourage Gas in Bogs now though.
    Posted 15 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dawgg has always been a griefer and always will be.
    Posted 15 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Theoretically gas is available in many areas, but people systematically destroy and replace them with spice, such that it's very difficult to keep up a reasonable harvest of gas.  I wouldn't mind if Ix were all spice (which it is pretty much is almost all the time), if the rabid spice fiends would leave some area of the bogs alone.
    Posted 15 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Everyone's ideas of how to play are equally valid.  Lets all remember that and work to get along instead of declaring war.
    Posted 15 months ago by DJ Plaid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Biff, I'm for leaving Bogs alone.

    edited
    xoxJulie, this thread isn't about me. If you want to discuss whatever issue you have with me, I'd prefer to do it through a PM. (We need PMs.)
    Posted 15 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hawkwell, when I started playing Ix was about half gas and half spice.  It stayed that way for several months.  Recently, I've seen people state their intention to get rid of all the gas, and to suggest that gas should only be allowed in Besara.

    Since those statements have been made in the forums, I've seen the ratio of gas and spice in Ix change to resemble the ratios you found. 

    After reset I was delighted to find the ratios of gas and spice were back to what I had experienced earlier.  That would suggest that the default, original design was to have a mixture of resources available close to Groddle.  As people gained botany skill, that changed again.

    Looks like cause and effect to me. 
    Posted 15 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This will always be a problem, but hopefully if they add regional/neighborhood chat then people can better coordinate what types of trees they prefer in that area and work together to keep a good balance.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Speaking as an aspiring cook/harvester, I am interested in seeing Ix have a majority spice tree population. I thoroughly support gas plants grouping in other locations (Bogs seem logical), for the benefit of anyone who desires significant gas gathering (myself included!).

    I'll be interested to see what the majority community agrees to be a respectable ratio for each area. I'm curious to see how out-lying personalities who have a differing view from the community will act to change the world to their particular goal. And then to see how the majority responds to maintain its preferred status quo.The grand social experiment of Glitch moves on!
    Posted 15 months ago by Weschelslas Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When it comes to adequate available spice for cooking, I don't want it to be a "social experiment". Cooking is about the most exquisite activity devised for Glitch, and lack of such a crucial aspect of it would be a shame, to say the least.
    Posted 15 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I find that my limited harvests are spice and bubbles - I also go through boatloads of cherries because of the super high fruit transformation costs, but that's also not so much of an issue because cherry trees are plentiful. With that said, I'm confounded by the presence of so many bean trees in Groddle Heights, a supposed bubble tree zone. That, combined with spice trees being removed for other types is thoroughly confusing to me.

    This led me to get Botany and I've already replaced a few bean trees with what I understood to be more appropriate for the regions. Before I go on an all out bean-tree genocide, can anyone tell me what that number of bean trees could possibly be required for? Spicing beans seems inefficient, they are required in very few recipes that I've come across, so why the glut of them?

    Those who are more knowledgeable, point me in the right direction and I will help with tree replacement.
    Posted 15 months ago by Optimus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The best recipe in the game requires a large amount of beans. I have gone through 2500 beans in a day before, while being excessively cook-ey :P
    Posted 15 months ago by Biohazard Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @gimmegames

    While you may not like the social experiment element aspect of Glitch, it is necessarily there, given how much a single Glitchen can change the world. I highly doubt that Ix will ever be completely bereft of spice trees. I also doubt that it will be 100% spice for any extended time. So the grand question is what ratio will be achieved? 80/20? 50/50?

    I'm excited, not just to maximize my spice intake, but to see where the cards will land as the population of the world increases. One Glitchen, given sufficient time, poison, and dedication, could change the face of a hub. Unless the devs step in and call it abusive behavior, we have to be ready for that.
    Posted 15 months ago by Weschelslas Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The developers are always tweaking the game, and it is up to them how much the players can affect the game.
    Posted 15 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Can we come to a mutually satisfactory compromise?  I suspect (although without any hard data) that those who favour Ix to be mostly spice are a significant majority.  Also it seems to make sense to have tree resources concentrated by type in different areas so that those who use a lot of any particular resource have a place where they can find it in quantity.  I would like to suggest that Ix be maintained at an 80/20 spice to gas ratio and that either Jethimadh (subway and a relatively short walk from Groddle) or Kalavana (no subway, longer walk) have its spice/gas ratio pushed in the direction of gas.  Currently Jethimadh has 20 spice and 16 gas while Kavalana has 19 spice and 25 gas.  Actually, Jethimadh's current 16 gas are how many Ix topped out at in the recent spate of changes.  This could easily pushed to 20 or 22, with most grouped on a few near-connected streets without denuding the region of spice.  We spice people would be left happy and the gas gatherers would have a better concentration of their resource than would ever occur in Ix.

    I know some residents of Jethimadh are going to scream at me for suggesting that outsiders meddle with their trees, but the change I'm suggesting is pretty minor

    Reactions?
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Optimus I do find myself short on bubbles - I would make more pig and butterfly eggs if I had more bubbles. I do use beans in cooking and during beta, I did run out of them a lot - the second best recipe uses both meat, milk, and grain, so that one's not bad to make instead when you've got all of those to use.

    I use so little gas - a bit for chicken eggs, a couple beverages, and some blocks - what are gas afficionadoes wanting it for? gassify and sell? or what?
    Posted 15 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Groddle Heights is definitely the place for bubbles.  At least 40 on the streets and probably as many more on the housing streets if you care to wander through them.  Alakol and Salatu had a fair number of bubbles before reset, but at the moment there is only one in all of Alakol and absolutely none in Salatu.
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I appreciate the sentiment, using more spice than gas, as I do. However, this sort of reasoning is ignoring the greater economy. If you want spice to be cheaper or more concentrated, I understand. i like cooking and margins on most recipes are super tight. However, the price of gas is through the roof. Why should street projecters feel obligated to pay 70 currants a vapour (and still not have enough) just so we can rack up massive xp on the cheap..?
    Posted 15 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Flirty, I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding your point.  You seem to be suggesting we want to reduce the number of gas plants.  Rather I'd like to see both gas and spice concentrated in specific areas that would make both easier to gather in quantity.  Most gas plants are already located in Jethimadh and Kalavana.  I'm simply suggesting that, rather than add gas and reduce spice in Ix where spice gatherers all go, why not do it instead in the two Bog regions?  There are enough spice plants in the bogs that a significant number could be switched to gas while still leaving a good supply of spice for local gatherers.  That way both spice gatherers and gasophiles would have an area of concentrated resource without having to bother with verbal attacks or nuclear tree wars.  The total number of gas plants could be increased over what it is at present, and they would predominantly be located in one part of the world.
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One serious problem with Jethimadh is that it poses great difficulty for those who have trouble jumping.

    There is a path through Ix that does not require any keyboard or hand-coordination skills, if you come in from Louise Pasteur.  There are no such paths in Jethimadh, and I (along with others who have posted here) do not have any way of changing those game-induced barriers.  

    It is also unreasonable to place the entire travel burden on those who want gas.  
    Posted 15 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn - sounds like something the developers maybe could consider, as to this and other issues
    Posted 15 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ideally I think for the fairness of all players the tree ratio would be at least mostly equal. Just because some people use bubble trees more than others doesn't mean there should be significantly more bubble trees at the expense of egg trees. (Yes, I realize that they are mutually exclusive, that's why it was just a hypothetical example.) Different people use different trees in differing amounts.

    As of right now the tree percentage in the world is about:
    33% Fruit trees
    30% Bean trees
    11% Bubble trees
    11% Egg plants
    6% Gas plants
    6% Spice plants
    3% Paper trees
    0% Wood trees
    Posted 15 months ago by Nerdcore Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hawkwell, I realize what you're not trying to do and I recognize that your desire is perfectly reasonable and you're not bein a jerk.... I just think that,until there is another run anywhere in Ur that is anything like Ix (apprently Undermine egg trees were nerfed last night..?), chefs (like myself) will probably have to accept that Ix will be a contested territory.  Also, imo there's probably a lot more communal advantage to more streets than there is to more xp from cooking right now...
    Posted 15 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Egg trees were apparently nerfed in that both they and a portion of their plots were removed from certain potentially congested areas. One would speculate that this was in consideration of keeping traffic flowing well and moving egg harvesters to other areas, e.g. firebogs, Pollokoo.

    I tire of the plant wars, but am not surprised that they exist. With so many people investing their skills in things more profitable than gardening, or investing their time in activities other than plant harvesting, the market desire for commodities such as spice and gas is very high. Obviously players who harvest -- I harvest both spice amd gas; can't help it, love the music in the spice lands and firebogs! <3 -- want to see more trees so they can get more items on the market for higher profit. Players who make e.g. higher-level foods, where one dish might require 800 beans, or who work on projects, where a stage requirement might be several thousand gas, also want to see more trees because that means more of a particular resource available on the market, which drives costs down. Yet there are not enough regular harvesters, which causes the high prices at market and makes greedy harvester glitchen such as myself only want to see whatever is most profittable for them that day in abundance.
    Posted 15 months ago by Linar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I figger one thing I *can* do is auction whatever gas I collect, rather than sell to vendors or donate to shrines...
    Posted 15 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • YES!  Tell your friends and any newbs you meet -- auctions may be slow, but for proven commodities (admittedly, there are a ton of nearly completely-useless items in the game but) for proven commodities, please auction whatever you can.  It really bolsters the whole economy.  Fewer currants generated by vendors, and more harvestables in circulation, means lower prices on nearly EVERYthing for EVERYone.
    Posted 15 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @FlirtyvonSexenhaven Lower prices and a tidy little profit for whoever is selling. Yes, it's a hassle for people to go and hunt down spices, but there are people who devote most of their time to harvesting goods and auctioning them.

    It's a time-saving way to get what you need, cost-effective, and you're helping pad the pocket of another player, rather than an NPC. Auctions, people! 
    Posted 15 months ago by Xev Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, I'm willing to accept a reasonable split between gas and spice in Ix.  I'll  probably investigate getting more spice from Jethimadh, as well.  Only been there once and don't remember much about it.  No tree war for me.  (But I'm still humbly waiting for that apology or at least an acknowledgement that charges against me were unfounded.)  ;-)  Might be a long wait.
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, and P.S.  I've learned that at reset Salatu and Alakol became regions where bubble trees can not be grown.  Disappointed and not sure of the rationale for the change.  I liked my bubble trees.  So it goes.
    Posted 15 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I know that some of the gas trees have become spice trees in my area around Chakra Phool and Shimla Mirch... It can get rather annoying when you are looking for something specific and it isn't there anymore, but oh well.
    Posted 14 months ago by Lollicat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I rather have the gas trees STAY in Chakra Phool and Shimla Mirch to be honest and leave our spice trees in Ix alone. I am with the other gang... I see the gas trees in Ix I poison them and antidote the Spice trees.
    Posted 14 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's so funny that there are so many people who think discussing this issue will change anything.
    Posted 14 months ago by Jewel Stoned Subscriber! | Permalink
  • FWIW, he'res a useful page that will tell you what can be planted where. some *has* changed since reset/launch (and may continue to change, for all i know)

    www.glitch-strategy.com/wik...
    Posted 14 months ago by greenkozi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Given this: www.glitch-strategy.com/wik...
    it would seem to make sense to request that the Giants open up specialized ecosystems. Spice-only, wood-only, and so forth.
    ~CTP
    Posted 14 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Guys, I understand that you have strong feelings about what trees should grow where, but please can we leave off the tree wars for a bit? If the gas/spice/bubble etc trees are always immature from being poisoned and replanted, we can't harvest them and NO-ONE gets what they want.

    How about an amnesty for a month, see if you can live with whatever the situation is at the moment?
    Posted 14 months ago by Pomponella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • War huh good god you're mad whuut iis it goood for huh absolutely nuthin say it agiin!! ;) +1 pomponella. The good thing about the mechanics as they stand is that perhaps someday we can accept that it's best to communally plan these ecosystems together...
    Posted 14 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
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