Topic

Better Learning Blah Blah Blah

Okay so I'm sure this has been posted in the forums before, but I cant find it.

So, when I started playing Glitch & saw the better learning tree, I knew that was going to be the first tree I learned (I like efficiency over effectiveness). However, it wasn't until I was at level 4 that I read on Glitch Strategy that after learning 10 skills (or whatever) the cost of learning other skills rises 5%. Now, just doing basic math with the simple equation I have that means by learning Better Learning 5 I increase my speed by 20%, but now my skills cost 25% more time to learn -- earning me a difference of like 8 days of skill learning & a 5% longer learning time for all my skills.

HOWEVER, I know that Glitch is smarter than this, and although I've heard people talk about the benefits I've never heard or read it in a way that seems understandable to anyone. So here I am not only inquiring someone explain this to me, but also perhaps noting that Tiny Speck should change these skills because they are confusing & I know many other players in the same boat I am -- and Im sure as the game progresses many more people will be confused about it also.

Posted 18 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • There's the concept of diminishing returns, as you said, with the 5% cumulative increase.  However, with each level of BL, the threshold for # of skills learned for "free" increases.

    I don't know the actual numbers, but here's an idea:
    No BL: 10 skills "free".
    BL 1: 13 skills "free".
    BL 2: 16 skills "free"
    etc
    etc
    etc

    As a case in point, I have somewhere between 40 and 50 skills, I think?  Upon completing BLV (shortly after this test began), I knocked 4+ hours off skills that were taking me about a day to learn, and it took more than a full day off the skills that were taking 6+ days to learn.
    Posted 18 months ago by Leimailu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • SO then, the amount gained would be 5%(x the amount of skills the threshold increased)+2-20% for the actually BL bonus?
    Posted 18 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If I follow your logic, and if you can follow mine:

    The amount added on to each skill is:
    5% cumulative (x number of skills already known over the threshold).

    The % reduction from BL is, I believe, a reduction in the *base* time.

    For example, Skill A has a base learning time of 48 hours.  That base learning time is before any 5% increases or BL time decreases - it's unmodified.

    If you have no BL, then here's how it looks:
    If you have learned <10 skills, Skill A remains at 48 hours.
    If you have learned 10 skills, Skill A bumps up to ~50.4 hours (as the 11th skill, it begins the cumulative 5%).
    If you have learned 13 skills, Skill A bumps up to 58.3 hours.

    BL, however, increases the threshold (pretend BL 1 increases threshold to 13 skills):
    If you have learned <13 skills, Skill A takes 47 hours, instead of 48.
    If you have learned 13 skills, Skill A takes ((48*.98)*1.05) = 49.4 hours.

    Make more sense?

    (Please forgive me if I messed something up or misunderstood something along the way - English major, not a Math major!)
    Posted 18 months ago by Leimailu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes.
    Stoot has said that: "The better learning skills also now have an additional benefit: starting with BL II, the increase the number of skills you can learn before that 5% increase starts ticking in."
    Posted 18 months ago by ChooJeremy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Must.... not.... ok ok... alllllll mathed. 

    If you need the 'explanations' or thinking behind it, there's a long long thread about it. 
    The whole analysis is detailed in "Is Better Learning V Worth It" - it's a long, long math-y read.

    The formula is:
    Final Time = [Base Time * BL Modifier] * [rate of increase]^[Total # skills - BL threshold]
    Rate of increase = 3% for people with BL2 or higher

    The other parts of it are:
    BL0 - threshold 20 skills, BL Modifier is 100%
    BL1 - threshold 21 skills, BL Modifier is 98%
    BL2 - threshold 24 skills, BL Modifier is 95%
    BL3 - threshold 28 skills, BL Modifier is 92%
    BL4 - threshold 32 skills, BL Modifier is 88%
    BL5 - threshold 37 skills, BL Modifier is 80%

    *Note - at this point I have no way of testing things. Things may have changed. If the math is wrong, drop me an IM and we'll figure out what changed.
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think, even if all is figured out, this is still wayy too complex. I feel like all of this is unecessary just to decipher whether or not something is actually worth learning. For instance, I am a college student -- given my strongsuit isnt math, though I have taken Business Calc & Stats and when I look at your post Trav, I just shake my head & give up. I feel like Tiny Speck definitely needs to change something about these skills, whether it be how they are read or how the skill times in game function -- because even with a simple understanding of this skill most of the things I've learned about it have been from sources that arent actually Glitch
    Posted 18 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Guess it just depends on if you are accustomed to games having intricate skill requirements. To me that math was no more difficult than figuring out the best THACO if I leveraged my points correctly. The reverse engineering and moving target gave a couple fits though.
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Once you've earned and spent all the various emblems, with an extra emblem from each giant on hand for mood/energy/xp boosts, then isn't spending favor points a decent way to shorten learning times?

    I picked up BLI right at the beginning, like Trav, and then decided that the returns just weren't worth the effort... most of my longest skills were earned on game downtime anyway, so it didn't matter if it was 1 or 3 days.

    Or am I missing something?
    Posted 18 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well,eventually there won't be such a thing as game down time, so maybe crunching the numbers on how long things take won't matter so much.  This is what I keep telling myself anyway, because I have to keep an eyeball scraper handy whenever someone starts getting all mathematical on me.
    Posted 18 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Lilith - your skills will go from 1-3 days to 6 days, to *gasp*giantsonlyknowhowlong.  Shaving days off that total time will be worth it in the end, just because you'll have that much more time to be productive".
    Posted 18 months ago by Leimailu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The math and crunching numbers shouldn't be the concern - it ought to be 'given that learning more skills will take longer for later skills, which branch of the tree should I go down?' - meaning, they want us to choose skills carefully rather than just gobble them all up.

    I agree that the math is complex, but the bottom line, decide whether to go broad and shallow (maybe pick up a little of everything, not going too deep on any one of them) or choose to go narrow and deep, meaning to specialize in one skill set all the way down it.  That allows you to develop a niche.  BL aides you in that choice.

    The math will be even less important when the unlearning skills come aboard.

    What I mean by 'unimportant' is this: how the math works is less important to your game play than realizing that there is a penalty algorithm at work and a skill set to compensate for it, and that you need to make choices that will impact your Glitchy life as to what skills to learn first.

    But also, the BL skills, especially if learned early, give you an edge up on learning more skills, regardless of the exact math.

    What I do think needs to made more clear is just that - it would be all too easy for a new player to just start willy nilly down the skills trees, ignoring better learning because it doesn't sound all that sexy relative to animal husbandry or mining when you first join the game.  It'd be neat to have a little tutorial like: what do you imagine your Glitch doing?  Do you like mining and crafting and alchemy?  Then start here.  Fancy yourself a chef? Then start here.  How about those animals?  Start here.  Also, do be sure to pick up BL along the way, since the more skills you learn, the longer it takes to learn more of them, unless you have BL to help you out.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • About a couple of months ago, I did a couple completely unrealistic calculations for skill learning in which a person learned the then big 4 skills (Mining 4, Tinkering 5, Gardening 5, and AK7) as early as possible vs around skill 50 onwards with and without BL skills.  Now that we have TP5, it'll change things, but back then, if you learned the big 4 ASAP, it was only worth learning BL up to ~BL3 or 4.  But if you learned the skills more towards skill 50+ BL5 became worth it.  (And it's more valuable the longer you delay the really long skills.)  As more skills are added, BL5 will become more worthwhile in terms of overall time spent on skill learning, but the initial time investment is quite painful.  Ultimately, it really depends on how you want to go at things.  :)
    Posted 18 months ago by Marebito Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just tell me what all the skills cost from day 1. Don't make them fluctuate based on how many skills I've previously learned. It's simply TOO confusing right now...
    Posted 18 months ago by Bashere Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Bashere -  that's part of the complexity of the game. If you want to learn all 90-odd skills, you'll reach a point of diminished returns. It's actually probably THE most complicated part (or is it cooking?). Over the life of the game and your character, the challenges facing you become bigger, and it becomes more difficult to 'do it all right away'.... or even 'plan it all right away', and Marebito's method are different than mine, are different the zeeberks, are different than clare's....
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Bashere to an extent, because Glitch doesnt even tell you about any of this, you have to read it on the wiki or realize it yourself (which probably wont be until later on) -- Though I agree that it concentrating on certain skill trees rather than all of them should be beneficial & show individualism, I would much rather just have them increase the learning time of higher skills than dig myself in a huge hole over time & stress about everything I learn. They need to smooth over the difference between what is COMPLEX & what is CONFUSING
    Posted 18 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Zachariah - the only reason it's confusing is because it isn't all well-documented.  Other games have been around a hell of a lot longer, and have much more fleshed-out documentation (wikis, etc).  But that's one of the joys of being part of a game that's still in beta: YOU get to help figure shit out.

    And, FWIW, a little bit of effort and digging through the forums will yield *almost* any piece of information you really want.  And any piece that you can't find, people around here will happily tell you - either user or developer.
    Posted 18 months ago by Leimailu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I suppose that's why they added in the ability to "remove" skills you've learned? Maybe if there was a little thermometer on the right that started to climb as I trained skilled (like in the loading screen), so I can visually see as I approach each new level.

    What do you think?
    Posted 18 months ago by Bashere Subscriber! | Permalink