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Staff Topic

An Experiment: Posting an Internal Design Proposal

I've always been curious about posting a detailed description of some change we are merely considering in order to get advanced feedback on it (and, to ward of some of the "Why didn't you tell us!?!?!" in the case that we actually do implement it).

So, with that in mind, here's an internal design proposal document titled Food Freshness & Quality which I made over the weekend. It's unexpurgated (excepting removal of links to other documents or images that you wouldn't be able to get to) and it was written for an internal audience so some of the terminology might be weird.

To be totally clear: this is just a something we are considering. We may do it and we may not do it. Your feedback is welcome (but we still may do it even if lots of people say they hate it and we still might not do it even if lots of people say they love it). It is one of dozens of specs, some of which are for things that we are in the middle of implementing and some of which we might never do. Like I said, just an experiment!

Posted 17 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • Here's that gallery of coolers I promised:
    Coolers
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that *some* spoilage would be ok... but this is feeling like Farmville crop withering to me... 3 days (offline) from fresh to rotten is a bit quick. Some people may only end up playing for a few hours once a week... or play daily for awhile but then have big breaks. I guess if this were to go thru (with the time limits indicated) then i would have to figure in advance when i would get back and then sell off my wares?
    Ok... i see the fridge would be 31 days (or so)... that's a bit better. 
    I wouldn't mind seeing something new with the edible inventory... but i hope it's tweaked in our favor just a bit before (if) it goes into play.
    Posted 17 months ago by Niknik Subscriber! | Permalink
  • bored re "However, reading your responses, it sounds more and more like this is gonna happen anyway. I could be wrong and I hope I am." — There are (literally) hundreds of ideas I love (and many much further developed than this) so me posting in here is no indication that it is going to happen. It may, it may not (and if it does it would definitely take a while).

    I was just hoping I could get people to see past the spoilage part (my own fault, I guess: I should have just left it out of the doc and/or made the proposed spoiled values the same as the current base values and said everything above that was a bonus).
    ——
    Edit: dang, people are posting so fast in here it is hard to keep the replies together with the original comments!
    Posted 17 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While I appreciate the thought that went into this idea, I dislike it immensely. This unnecessary layer of complexity can only do one of two things:

    1. Make those who already love Glitch and spend a lot of time playing it appreciate the game a tiny bit more
    2 Take casual, new players and turn them off when things they created are "destroyed"

    If you want to add this level of complexity, come up with a new resource to optionally add to recipes that can give it a demonstrably increased energy/mood boosts when added, but make it "unstable" so that it rots away over time.

    You can even have different levels of boosts with increased volatility based on how many of the new resources are added to the recipe.

    This way, the hard-core Glitch-o-philes have the added complexity, but casual players can go about their everyday Glitching unaffected by an unnecessary level of complexity.

    EDIT: and make the new complexity option subscriber only ;-)
    Posted 17 months ago by Sean of the Moor Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm more interested in solving the problem of the interchangeable food items.  I suspect the way it works right now is that most people pick whichever item they like best, then mostly produce only that.  Given the vast number of ingredients that most people don't want to carry around, specializing in this way makes sense.

    For example, how many people prepare...oh, I dunno, Lotsa Lox with any frequency?

    You could make it so practice is the only way to unlock the full potential of each meal, and then offer achievements for mastery of various foods.  That'd be something, I guess, but still doesn't address the original problem, which is a tricky one.

    In the real world, after two weeks of nothing but stew, you'd fart yourself into a depression.  You could force people to mix up their diets, but that's more stick than carrot.

    As long as there is some benefit to cooking the other foods, it gives chefs a reason to explore.  And as long there's no punishment involved, people can carry on putting Cool Hand Luke to shame and downing more eggs than Egg-eating Eggfiend without mucking up their game.

    I think the over-riding message of the recent responses has been a rejection of perceived punishment.  When you hear new content and game-play are coming down the pike, you want something that makes you excited to explore, not a new system of nagging.

    AFTERTHOUGHT: Maybe certain giants have certain food preferences (eg, lemony snacks)?
    Posted 17 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I'm sure the main reason it feels prickly is because it's a new idea."

    that it seems to evoke many people's memories of farmville, an familiar idea, seems to also be a problem. fairly or unfairly.

    "why would you have to run home and worry about it and stuff?"

    there are a couple of reasons why that i just typed out and then deleted for simplicity's sake .. but here is a simple one - i'm an absentminded person. i forget stuff. do i want to click through all my bags each night to ensure that there isn't a stack of valuable pastries in some corner of bag 8 that's been there for a couple of sleeps and needs to get in the fridge asap or else it'll be spoiled in the morning?

    this is why, i think, i'm a bit fixated on the composting angle. coz if the stack of pastries is worth, i dunno, 1k and the resulting compost is worth, say, 0.25k and can be used easily to recoup me 1k or cleverly to gain 1.2k .. well, at that point i'd just say 'screw it i'm going to bed' coz i'm not really worried about it rotting. even if it might take a day or two to recoup its value versus eating it or selling it.

    the churn is still there, the need for cooks to support the churn is still there, but overall there isn't a true penalty for neglecting inventory management unless i really had some serious plans for those pastries right away or the next day.

    "Wouldn't you just carry less and buy (or make, or gather) closer to the time you needed it?"

    i'm going to make this my last post here because i'm repeating myself and a back and forth won't be productive .. but if that's an issue, wouldn't decreasing average stack size would get people carrying less and making more through a much less complicated mechanism?

    i know it seems odd here that i'm kinda arguing from both sides, but it feels like a high risk, high reward idea. if it works, it really works and infuses something that everyone uses - food - with a destabilized but fun nature where the lack of stability shakes things up without invoking dread .. but if it doesn't work, i could see it feeling like a penalty and really turning people off.
    Posted 17 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for the quick response, Stoot! We love gifting as is. It's an integral part of our community...even when we gift bottles of hooch while you sleep facedown in our Flaming Humbabas! ((hugs))
    Posted 17 months ago by Dagnabbit Rabbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Biff: "fart yourself into a depression" AHAHAHAHA. I am SNORTING with laughter. Thank the giants all my coworkers are gone. 

    stoot, am excited to know that there are literally 100s of ideas (and kinda figured that). :D

    Really, this has been most intriguing...
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • re composting..how about we discard the outer leaves of our cabbage, the potato skin, the tops of the carrots etc when we use them? That to me is what composting is about and I would love a compost bin, complete with worms, for fertilizing my garden.
    Posted 17 months ago by Teena Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Edit: dang, people are posting so fast in here it is hard to keep the replies together with the original comments! Posted 16 min ago by stoot barfield | Permalink

    I'm seeing the same problem with my own postings. This is becoming a wall of comments. The forum might do with a little re-work where you can respond to specific posters rather than to the general topic. Maybe with collapsible sub-threads?
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So its taking me 45mins to read every post! Was going to make long detailed post myself, but after reading all the above I dont have the energy! I will just say if the idea is to make the game 'harder' and provide more for players that have the time to play 24/7 & who want a more challenging then sure the idea is great, but as someone who doesnt have that RL time then I hope u dont implement it. I would play less and less bc what would b the point for a 'casual' gamer to play if I came back to everything rotted?
    Posted 17 months ago by BumbleBeez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @BumbleBeez... you read this whole thread in 45 min?????   SPEED READER!!!!!
    Posted 17 months ago by Pirate Apples Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @BumbleBeez - People have been throwing up suggestions for that very problem (myself included - I even provided pictures!) but, as you noticed, it's becoming very hard to read through this topic effectively.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can tell by reading the responses we sure are an electic group of glitches. Thanks for the opportunity to chime in stoot.

    I really, really, really dislike the idea of food spoiling. As was pointed out in an earlier comment, this is very FV and why I avoid these games. My RL offers enough challenges in time management and having to throw out food that spoils because I have not had the time to eat or drink it.

    If this is something that happens, make sure you add canning equipment or preservatives with the vendors.
    Posted 17 months ago by Sugar Plum Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot said:  Wouldn't you just carry less and buy (or make, or gather) closer to the time you needed it? 

    Sure--and it would completely alter my style of gameplay. Right now, I tend to spend either the first or last day of a test going through the world, gathering resources, planting the crops that I need. In my cabinet are bags full of the ingredients I use most frequently, and I try to keep them full. Doing so allows me to spend the rest of my game time contributing to projects, covering the neighborhood in food, and running around Baqala. 

    The freshness mechanic, as written, would change that rhythm to collect, do stuff, collect, do stuff, collect, do stuff.. over and over again. Is that necessarily bad? It might not be for everyone, but I have a very particular brain, and "switching modes" that frequently is very frustrating. The fridge would surely help, but how high a level would I have to be/how many currants would I need to  have before I could afford one?

    ETA: stoot said, "I was just hoping I could get people to see past the spoilage part " Beyond the spoilage, I love the idea of cooking skills being more valuable, but I'm not sure how I feel about the power berries.
    Posted 17 months ago by Sheepy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that story is as important as mechanics here in keepin' the fun. With that in mind: I love Aniloverl's suggestion that the Rook could be responsible for food spoilage.  

    The giants (and we) are imagining this (e)utopia, imperfectly, as best we can.  Sometimes we see it through a bubbled, cracked glass. 

    So when all is well, it's Edenic; the last cherry on the last tree might hang until Pot forgets how to cook. And when the corvid shadows are upon us, we shiver in the darkness, hold hands and stick together; then make the best of fixing up what's left behind, the old and the new and the utterly transformed.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lelu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Pirate I do enjoy reading .....
    @ Fokian - I saw the suggestions, and I still think for me personally that implementing this puts me off playing. Im a huge Sims player, u name it, I own it! When it comes to playing however I always get the cheat code to halt losing energy/hunger etc do I can play without worring about it, yes it takes some of the fun out of it but thats how I like to play. Glitch is the same, it annoys me I lose energy but its still easy enough to bump it up, having food rot is going to make it harder to bump my energy when I have to ensure its not spoiled, etc and make a more concious effort towards food I carry/use/etc.... Again I know its just an 'idea' and may or may not be implemented but if it was to a 'vote' as a subscriber I would use my 'vote' tosay no.
    Posted 17 months ago by BumbleBeez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Pretty cute Coolers Fokian.
    Posted 17 months ago by Holly Waterfall Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Okey Stoot,thank you for the update* Now will you please put a cool 12 beer in the fridge for me leave it with Helga. .Another thing Helga in West Spice is complaining,always muttering to herself,damn that Stoot,I need a fridge for my wares especially the excessive calling for cold champagne.lol
    Posted 4 days ago by ghost777 | Permalink | Edit

    Wow do ya think Helga in West Spice will really get a fridge,Super now for a cool beer,lol
    Posted 17 months ago by Jellybelly Baby Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm game for this. It's about time that Ix got a claim to fame other than its trippy architecture.
    Posted 17 months ago by Letter Jeigh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Holly Waterfall - Thanks for noticing. Hours of work that probably never get used, but I had fun in the development.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Re:  @Stoot:  "Again, I think those can be addressed without having food spoil, but the spoilage makes it a lot more interesting (in my mind anyway!) because then there is a purpose for the increased investment in skills, decision making, etc."

    Here is what's rambling around my head now....first I think it shows that TS/Stoot are very interested in making this as good a game as possible for the players, very willing to consider our input and make decisions based on it.  There is a vision here that I'm sure we are not privy to.

    Stoot when you said "in my mind" I thought exactly - this creature Glitch was hatched there in that noggin!  So I would hope you carry through and get the game where you (all) envision it.

    IMHO so far so very good!
    Posted 17 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • First and totally OT -  I'm posting an ewww about needing to navigate to the second page of this thread to post a reply. I don't remember that previously (I may be overly tired and memory deficient) but I don't like it. o_O (no...I haven't read through the forums to see if there is an existing thread, y'all. Give an overworked girl a break)

    Second -- I love the concept of user research (kind of a professional bias you might say)

    I will weigh in separately if I have anything additive to the comments already shared regarding the actual functionality. 
    Posted 17 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • YAY.. I am Banana Man
    Posted 17 months ago by Aero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm digging around for some forum software now. Suggestions for anything PHP >5.0 based? Preferably free? Needs to handle threading. :
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My thoughts (keeping in mind I have not read the others, so if there's been clarification in-thread, I haven't seen it):

    What I like:

    1. Fridge units. I keep meaning to post in the ideas section that mini fridges would be useful as an item-locked storage container (like a tool box), so that tickets, harvesting rewards, etc. don't get mixed up with food items.

    2. The ability to use rotten fruits as compost fertilizer, possibly in place of guano

    What I don't like:
    1. It takes a lot of collecting to make decent amounts of recipes. Making a scrumptious fritta requires farming spinach, harvesting eggs and spice, and milking butterflies to go through the process to get cheese. If someone wanted to make a lot of fritattas, they would be limited in their harvesting/milking time by the freshness of their spinach. Especially since egg trees and spice trees exist in different areas, and are often in limited supply and yield limited harvests for the *new* player.

    This doesn't seem like a practical route to making cooking skills more important, as it would be difficult to make substantial amounts of things (especially at lower levels) without requiring constant foraging and thinking about freshness. It will probably result in increased reliance on the auctions, which won't be fun if it becomes a game of constantly needing to buy things at inflated prices (in order to sell things at inflated prices). It seems like it would be a barrier to creating importance for cooking skills, especially if ore, gems, etc. do not also decay.

    If someone picks a cooking path, and gets multiple refrigerated units, and everything in them is immune from decay, then I think this would nullify the problems above. It would be down to a matter of choice in the items you carry.

    2. Produce grows at different rates. If a user is planning to make something that utilizes a variety of produce, they'll have to deal with freshness issues when making a bulk of something that requires multiple ingredients (especially a few with looong growth times). This, too, will require reliance on auctions in lieu of waiting out growing times. Admittedly, I already do this when I'm too lazy to wait for my potatoes to grow, but it's a choice, not a planting vs decay issue.

    Questions:
    1. How does individual ingredient decay impact overall meal item quality, not counting mood, tools or skills?
    2. How does decay work while items are in auction? If they aren't sold, will they be returned to the user's back with the amount of decay that would have occurred had they been in the user's pack for the previous 24 hours?

    Thoughts/Questions about PowerBerries:
    1. Will this be a new tree-type or a spawning item like quoins? I would prefer for them to be a new, but possibly rare or seriously area-limited, tree type to be harvested (or gained via some other intentional medium like purchasing via vendor), rather than quoins. If it's the latter, I don't think they should be an auctionable item.

    General Thoughts:
    1. I don't think spices should decay
    2. On one hand, I like the complexity the decay adds. on the other, the ability to hoard things in your bags allows you to change to a new activity at will. I might get bored of mining and decide randomly that I want to cook up a lot of recipes/sauces or blend/shake a lot of drinks. There's no use to hoarding these things to create activity variety if I have to worry about decay.
    3. Some people enjoy building projects and hoard a ton of things, including food and raw ingredients not for cooking but specifically to participate in those phases. There would be a lot of disappointed players if their huge collection of zucchini decayed before they were able to contribute it to a project requiring that ingredient.
    4. Rather than decreasing the energy/mood value of dishes/drinks made with less-than-fresh ingredients, I'd rather see the impact on success of making that dish/drink. So the more stale ingredients, the more likely that the cooking/shaking/blending will use up the ingredients but won't result in anything (like in life, sometimes things turn out, sometimes they don't. If my cake flops, it doesn't magically return my eggs and flour).

    All the above aside, I don't think it's a terrible idea.
    Posted 17 months ago by Eureka Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I initially focused on the spoilage issue as many have, but as I have read this thread and stoots responses I just wanted to share my two currants: As we are here to test things in this game, why don't we try it out instead of having a knee jerk reaction. It can always be changed if there is something that becomes a huge problem or simply does not work.

    Question for stoot: Will there be testing after launch to test out big changes like this? If so I am willing to continue being a guinea pig for the cause. :)

    Totally agree with Stormy Weather: "Stoot when you said "in my mind" I thought exactly - this creature Glitch was hatched there in that noggin! So I would hope you carry through and get the game where you (all) envision it."
    Posted 17 months ago by Piece of Serenity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't like that stoot and others assume that critics of the idea of spoiling food are simply rejecting change. Of course change rejection is a factor in gameplaying, particularly when some nerfing is involved. But I think we are having a thoughtful discussion here, not a "knee jerk reaction" as Serenity said.
    Posted 17 months ago by Ximenez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The knee jerk reaction in my opinion is focosing on the spoilage and assuming it would be bad for the game. I never said that the disscussion here was bad. Just the opposite actually.
    Posted 17 months ago by Piece of Serenity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • FWIW, I don't think that critics of the idea are simply rejecting change.
    Posted 17 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1000 @stoot
    Posted 17 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • it would make almost no difference — the productive activities would still be stuff you did when online and the only thing you lost in prolonged absences would be excess food that you didn't sell, eat, donate or give away before going offline (for most players, a tiny fraction of a percent of their "net worth", rather than their only source of advancement in the game

    You imagine that it would make almost no difference.  I imagine that it would change my game play entirely.  Right now, as I explore and ramble, I gather:  meat, milk, grain, cherries, spice, bubbles, beans.  In my pantry, I have a bigger bag full of each of these items. 

    I do my cooking in intensive, efficient bursts: starting with the complex recipes, and using the recipe links to convert the basics into the intermediate foods in a just-in-time fashion.  I then fill my bag with these cool foods, and go out wandering again, gifting people I know by dropping stuff on their stoop, and gifting newbies as I run across them.

    Cooking is not (in my mind) a source of advancement.  It is a fun activity that I like to after I've spent a couple game-days socializing and exploring.  This game, for me, is not about "advancement"  it's about engaging with the environment and the people. 

    The current proposal would make wandering around and meeting new people a waste of time, since any of the basics that I gathered as I was doing so would begin to rot.  Instead of spending a couple days exploring, I'd have to set timers to make sure I got back to my house before my food began to destroy itself. 

    Instead of a stack of food to distribute, I'd have to sell or donate everything quickly so it wouldn't "go to waste". 

    This proposal would almost completely destroy my current gaming style, and would put cooking/farming into the 'grind' category, just like mining.  I don't go around giving people ingots.  There is no cultural symbolism in handing out ores.

    But giving people food has always been a way to nourish social connections as well as provide energy, even if it's only symbolic.  Turning it into an "advancement" grind takes away a lot of why I hang out in Glitch. 
    Posted 17 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you so much @stoot for allowing us to give you feedback!!

    Here goes!!

    I've spent most of today reading this thread, thinking about it, and going over ideas.  Not to mention notes - many many notes have been made!

    Most of these have been said before (obviously, this has been going for 14+ hours)
    So - I'm going to simply bullet my main points.

    *What if raw goods (stuff you harvest/nibble/milk) are not affected? 
    *May I say that I love that mood may play a role in *something*!!?
    *The name "Discombobulating Recycling Skill" = love!
    *Chillbox for our inventory sounds amazing
    *Dehydrate fruits/veggies/meat - they don't degrade, but give sig.less energy  *think beef jerky/banana chips*.
    ----Add water (or something...) they become lively edible fruits/veggies/meat.
    *This particular thread was referenced already - but I really believe it is LARGELY important.  Re Ix:   We need tree balance before you take away all the places spice  and gas grow...
    *"When i first started playing, i didnt get into it right away. Addiction grew over time. If i had found off putting items, i wouldnt have stayed around." - Dagnabbit Rabbit - THIS!!
    --- The thing is... it's difficult to get into to start with, the controls are kind of off - the humor is  alittle strange - and over all, it's just wacky (why, these are some of my favorite things...) but still - if you come back into the game a week later, after a long week at school/work/clinicals - and see rotten food, how fun is it going to be?
    ---- When you realize all the work you put in before is of no benefit anymore, you're liable to go find another game, that allows you to have a "real life" too.
    Posted 17 months ago by fadingfastx3 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I liked that I thought "Does that mean compost?" and two paragraphs later: compost!

    Do jarred sauces keep more indefinitely?  Can we have a canning skill?  Can I freeze dry my security blanket of 12 Awesome Stews and still carry them around like astronaut food or MREs?

    My 500 cherry stash for projects will be moot.  So will my dedicated bigger bag of produce.  It kind of makes large scale farming ify - if it takes longer to grow things, and you can't keep them as long, the demand at auction for things is not as great unless there is a project that requires exactly what you grew.  Are foodstuffs in stasis when they are up for auction? Do my pockets get fruit flies if I wander around with 40 bad bananas in there?

    It seems like we'll have to spend a lot more time scrounging for food than doing other more productive and fun things. Hunter/Gatherers didn't have a lot of time for social lives. Filling a bag with drinks and hiding it for someone to find is less of a win if everything has 'gone over' by the time they find it.

    Banana Bread will be a must.  Bananas should spoil the fastest and apples and potatoes should keep for ages.  Can we let the beans dry so they keep a hundred years?  Do you have to soak them before you use them in a recipe if you do that?  Preservative powder! Completely organic, of course.

    So my feedback is:
    Challenge or Frustration? I can't tell yet. I guess I'll have to try it and see.
    Posted 17 months ago by Ida Keen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, and a cooler that fits in a slot is a great idea.  It's been worrying me that ice doesn't melt. I completely expected it to.
    Posted 17 months ago by Ida Keen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Someone said it was sledge hammer to nail because there are simpler ways of overcoming the issues that Stoot mentioned that this would solve. Don't think of it that way. Think of it as putting a grand mechanical clock in the city square rather than a sundial. More complex, more elegant. Sure it's prone to problems but Stoot and team of clock makers will be behind the scenes fine tuning as is runs.
    I'm all for it. I think it will give the economy of the game a boost.
    All that being said i'm still a little torn on offline decomposition. I'm sure it will be fine if your fridge keeps things fresh for a month. If things dont decompose offline, everyone and their dogs will have a food-storage alt. That would just destroy the whole thing.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cap'n Bob Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ida Keen - The texture I used for the tops of my coolers is called "Tundra". Has a built in ice cube there :)
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really appreciate the opportunity for us as a community to have say on ideas...My reaction to said idea was Grrrrr..Ick....because to me it just did not add to my gaming experience as I would like. As I was reading it my mind went to something like the ability to transmogrify an area..We already have the ability to help on new streets..I would like to see that advanced to being able to transmogrify a neighborhood by the same method...Our housing areas..Where we can choose from art renditions in choices.Maybe we want our trees to be scary like in The Wizard of Oz...Or pigs that can become Wart Hogs...etc.etc..Allowing us to further personalize our neighborhoods.
    Just like we voted on street design previously....That's the type of progression I see for Glitch... Don't shoot me....lol
    Posted 17 months ago by Tilly TrinkleHouse Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yag, I don't envy stoot reading this thread, but thank him/you for doing it ALL day, I am guessing.  +1 the idea of food getting better over time because it seems very Glitchy.  BUT Still like the idea of food rotting, and there being uses for food in peak, off peak and funky condition, much better than re-freshening it with some berry. Cherries should not rot.  Jerkies, leathers and reconstitutable food stuffs would be great but should not elevate and should decrease mood, so that the max benefit comes from the freshest food.  I love the idea of having to water one of these off peak/funky foods before you can eat it, makes me laugh!  

    Fridges/coolers good, but should not be essential
    Posted 17 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My goodness, this thread is immensely difficult to keep up with---I feel bad for you, Stoot, because you're the one who is obligated to read this whole thing all the way through. Second page in less than 24 hours! Absolutely unheard of!

    So, sorry if this is a repeat, but from what I read after Stoot's initial comments I didn't see any response to what I thought was his main point (no, I didn't read all of it--sorry):

    @stoot said: "It was interesting to see everyone hone in on one aspect (the food spoiling when offline) when that wasn't even intended to be a significant or interesting part of the proposal.... The proposal was much more about making the cooking (and transmogrification) skills more interesting since each step in the process increases freshness/quality and the current items can be made *more* beneficial than they are currently when they are made fresh. And the more experience a chef has (and the better tools, and the better mood they are in at the time of creation), the higher quality product they would produce."

    Yes, this aspect is totally awesome, and something along the lines of what I would expect as a benefit to learning higher level cooking skills (and an incentive to keep your mood high). As it stands now, the only benefit is learning recipes that are otherwise inaccessible. I agree that there should be other benefits, including making any given food more fortifying, or even instilling random positive buffs in some dishes (as mentioned, I think, first by striatic). 

    The reason people are focusing only on the negative aspects (the spoilage) is a combination of human-nature (the cons are always more important than the pros), and the fact that the extra benefits would only be accessible to higher level players with higher level skills, while the negative effects would be felt by everyone. 

    Also, I feel that the proposal as it stands right now would make gardening a rather useless task. It would indeed be much more efficient to just make food when you need it, and not stockpile for the future... thus, it makes more sense to just buy stuff from vendors then go through the long process of making it yourself (which would result in leftovers that you may or may not use before they spoil). Also, it's HARD to make higher level dishes like awesome stew. Alot of planning, work, (possibly) currants, and energy goes into making a single awesome stew. Having it decay would be heart-breaking after all of that effort, and I'm not sure I would bother, unless I knew for a fact I would gobble it up right away.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Meh - Still looking for a decent threaded forum package. May have to roll my own. Crap.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Fokian Fool - I got the sales spiel from the folks at Vanilla Forums last month.

    Free, open-source, theme-able, embed-able, addons, self-hosted or hosted by them.
    It looks really nice but I haven't had the opportunity to try it on a project yet. 

    [Edit: Having said that, I've just checked & I'm not sure it does comment threading]
    Posted 17 months ago by Snazzlefrazz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Snazzelefrazz - Thanks for the input. I usually use the phpBB3 forum software, but there aren't any up-to-date mods for it to handle threading. A friend of mine in England has put together a BBS package of his own called Dove forums, but I don't remember if he had multi-threading. I found a package that was Delphi inspired but the mySQL software on my host isn't up to date. They are updating in a couple of weeks, but I really wanted something tonight. Doesn't look like it's going to happen.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One thing that has struck me after reading stoot's responses: He said he might have just had the food at normal condition and then shown the "improved" states you could get the food into (superfresh, etc.) and not listed the rotten half of the spectrum. Well...what about it? Just make food "improvable" but not able to decay? This would still answer the part about making the cooking skills more meaningful because those who love to cook could sell or gift their improved food; the improved food could give much more energy and/or mood. And the regular food would just do what food does now:) My point is, that half of the proposal, just by itself, would be pretty awesome! So I do wonder what all of our reactions might have been if that had been the whole proposal. Plus I just wonder if that might be something to try...no rotting but the improvement bits.
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow. A ton of replies. Took a while to read them, but I think the consensus is go for it? Implement, test, then decide to keep or can, I say.
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Edit to say: I wrote out this reply over the course of several hours while I was also doing some other things, and after I posted this, I saw that Stoot replied and there was some more discussion.  So this is a direct response to Stoot's original post and some early parts of the discussion.  :) 

    --------
    I don't really like this idea for a number of reasons, chief among them being (as others have pointed out) that it's too much like Farmville.  Having your food rot would chain you to Glitch.  While that might seem to be good at first (for TS and Glitch), the truth of the matter is that I believe the amount of playing hours per player will dramatically scale once Glitch is open round the clock.  Right now, when Glitch opens, I put everything on hold to play because Glitch is a fleeting amusement and I want to make the most of it when I can.  Once Glitch is available all the time, I know I won't be able to maintain the same amount of sleepless nights/unproductive days.  That being said, if I log back in and always find my food rotten or even just spoiled, I'll get frustrated pretty quickly and I might even abandon Glitch for a game that doesn't punish me for not being there. 

    As for some things that you (Stoot) have said, I'd like to reply directly:
    The fundamental intention behind this proposal is to make food and energy management a more interesting part of the game. This change should:make the cooking skills more valuable (since cooking/processing increases quality/freshness, giving an energy bonus)

    I honestly think you're underestimating your own game here!  Food and energy management is already quite 'interesting'--I like the level of thinking I have to do now--the system is intuitive: You lose energy by doing things, you gain energy by eating things.  You can make food to eat and it will cost you a little energy.  Adding this level of freshness to rotteness would make energy/food management much too complex, especially for new players. At the beginning of gameplay, I admit I struggled with having the proper amount of food, properly calculating energy expenditures for a venture, and having enough prepared food ready to eat after said venture.  Up until lvl 10 or 12 or so, I often had to resort to eating my ingredient stores because I didn't have enough of some ingredient or another to make any of the dishes in my recipe list and I was too far away from a grocery or produce vendor to get there without eating something--I can only imagine how frustrating and annoying it would have been to have my stores going rotten all the time and thus increasing this happenstance of not having the food on hand, or catching myself in an endless cycle of grocery vendor-->produce vendor-->grocery vendor, trying to make a little extra each time to auction off, to pay for food that is slowly going stale/sour/rotten or being consumed by me.
     
    Right now, I wouldn't say food and energy is exactly 'fun' all on it's own--at this stage of my gameplay (lvl 25) I'm not too hyped over new recipes and so forth, but I still have to get around to vendors, auctions, etc, and manage my energy intake and output.  Cooking and eating might not be great all on it's own (I wouldn't play Glitch if it relied solely on this part of the game, is what I mean), but combined with the other aspects of gameplay, I think it's great.  Monitoring my existing food stores for freshness would not, in any way, increase the fun of food/energy management.  I would just think about it *more*, which is not the same thing at all, as the time spent on food/energy management would increase to such a degree that I would probably become quite frustrated and annoyed by the whole process.

    You also provided a list of effects that would happen, which I would like to respond to.  You said this system should:

    make the cooking skills more valuable (since cooking/processing increases quality/freshness, giving an energy bonus)

    I think you're overlooking the fact that cooking is already an extremely valuable skill, and arguably the most valuable.  Everyone has to eat, and to maximize their eating potential, they need to be able to make at least simple meals.  While it's true that meals can be bought at auction, it's never as cost-beneficial as cooking, and at the lower levels, buying meals on auction can be cost prohibitive.  And anyway, someone has to do the cooking to put the food up on auction!  Also, while it's true that a Glitchling could eat everything they gather (raw) I'm not even sure if they would be able to sustain themselves as the energy of raw foods is rather low.  What I'm trying to get across here is that Cooking is already among the most useful of the skills, I don't think it needs help.

    require that food resources move more quickly through the ecosystem
    I read this as you stating a positive change, but you may simply be stating a result.  I don't really think it's necessary for food to move more quickly through the ecosystem... why is this a positive thing?

    create an opportunity to make better versions of existing tools and potentially interesting upgrade paths
    I agree that this a good thing, but I feel that it could be accomplished in a way that doesn't punish the user.  What about a food transmogrification skill (akin to the Fruit Changer ability) that applies to other foods.  Perhaps combine that with some other people's suggestions to have food increase in power/ability/energy with time.  Add fermentation as a skill, with the tools to go along with it.  Or something.  I just think there are better ways to go about this.

    create a need for upgraded storage
    What about simply creating upgraded storage that would grant the stored items a bonus?  Instead of sapping everyone's potency, grant the users of the upgraded storage something extra.  That way, base players (those who don't log in often, don't have the currents for upgraded storage, etc) are not punished.

    create a larger possibility space of strategies where players can make interesting decisions about food
    I actually don't see this happening.  How many 'interesting decisions' can players really make about food that's spoiling?  They can:
    a) eat it
    b) let it rot
    c) "refresh" the stack with newer food, to a certain amount
    d) sell it
    e) powerberries?? 

    Currently the choices they have are a) eat it  b) sell it
    HOWEVER, although this new system provides more choices, they're not what I would call interesting ones.  More like, tedious, frustrating ones.

    give a rationale for a new fundamental resource (powerberries)
    First, powerberries is an awful name for their current purpose.  I hear "powerberry" and I expect to be able to eat it and have it grant me some awesome power like unlimited teleportation or mining frenzy, or zero-energy cooking (or zero-g walking :D )  Secondly, don't waste powerberries on this.  GIVE THEM AN AWESOME PURPOSE. 

    give new life (and more longevity) to existing items by making them less same old, same old
    In this case, I feel that you're equating new with 'awesome', which isn't the case.  I think this system will very, very quickly become 'same old, same old' as players get frustrated with trying to time growing, saving, cooking, storing with log-in/log-out times. 

    TL;DR: I think it's a horrible idea because Glitch is not Farmville, and powerberries should do something cool like let you fly. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Kross, the Empress Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ stoot: "I was just hoping I could get people to see past the spoilage part (my own fault, I guess: I should have just left it out of the doc and/or made the proposed spoiled values the same as the current base values and said everything above that was a bonus)." (bold added)

    +1 What RM said. I like bonuses (is that the right plural form of bonus?)
    Posted 17 months ago by GreyGoose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Kross: Regarding "I think you're overlooking the fact that cooking is already an extremely valuable skill, and arguably the most valuable.  Everyone has to eat, and to maximize their eating potential, they need to be able to make at least simple meals.  While it's true that meals can be bought at auction, it's never as cost-beneficial as cooking, and at the lower levels, buying meals on auction can be cost prohibitive.  And anyway, someone has to do the cooking to put the food up on auction!  Also, while it's true that a Glitchling could eat everything they gather (raw) I'm not even sure if they would be able to sustain themselves as the energy of raw foods is rather low.  What I'm trying to get across here is that Cooking is already among the most useful of the skills, I don't think it needs help." Cooking can be immaterial though in Glitch, at most of the lower levels, because basically if you cart around a lot of plain old meat, you're pretty well covered until you pass about 2,000 in your energy tank (which takes a LOT of levels...somewhere in the 40s I think). So in a way...it isn't that necessary for a long time, for a lot of folks.

    And re: "require that food resources move more quickly through the ecosystem I read this as you stating a positive change, but you may simply be stating a result.  I don't really think it's necessary for food to move more quickly through the ecosystem... why is this a positive thing?" Yeah, I don't get that one myself :)

    Good post!
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Rachel: Speaking as a professional proofreader:), yes, bonuses is the correct plural of bonus. (Bonii would be kinda funny, though!)
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Rascalmom, I don't think Cooking is immaterial, even at the lower levels--meat is only 10 energy, and without Animal Kinship, I think petting and nibbling a piggy is going to cost you about 5 and 3, respectively. (My numbers may be a little off, I'm working from memory) -- pretty true for all food gathering at the lower levels is that energy output is very close to the energy gained by eating (raw) food, which increases the importance of Cooking.  It didn't take me very long to learn that making meals would increase my consumable energy with the same food that I was consuming raw. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Kross, the Empress Subscriber! | Permalink