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#### Are we learning too fast?

I'm not really sure I'd want what I'm going to say, but it's a thought I had and I wanted to share...
Yesterday, I found out the game was open while I was at work, so I couldn't play but I could access my skill page and launch new skill learning. And that's what I've done, all afternoon.
This allowed me to advance quite quickly in my skills. I was very glad about it but still...
It means that when the game is open 24/24, we will be able to learn all the skills extremely quickly. Dealing with the skills during the day, dealing with quests and mining to gain giant's favor during the evening and night... Looking at the skill tree, it looks like I could learn all the skills within a month or two. And I think it's a little too fast.
In the one hand, I'm very glad to be able to advance so quickly, but in the other hand, skills and the related quests are a big part of the game for me, and even if I'd be very satisfied to end the skill tree, I'm afraid that the game would lose a part of its interest for me when done with the skills.
I see four ways to avoid that:
- More skills (but a lot more)
- Not being able to launch a new skill learning while not playing (you can learn when not in the game, but you have to enter the world to launch a new one).
- More achievements limitations
- Longer learning times
But maybe it's just a newbie thought. Maybe I don't see all the possibilites of the game after all the learning part...
What do you think?

Posted 22 months ago by Moumoushou | Permalink

### Replies

- Longer learning times
  I don't mind this idea, but I certainly think there are better ways to make the skill tree last longer.
  What if you could only learn while in-game? You wouldn't need to be active, but the "learning time" counter would only decrease while you were actually playing. Since there's some energy cost (I think) to being in-game, even without doing anything, you couldn't just leave your computer on, in case of death (oh, and skills wouldn't be learned while in hell). I admit there are some workarounds for this, but I kind of like the idea of learning time being play time, instead of just realtime. Right now, I think you can learn all the skills within three weeks (except for that skill that takes a few years). But if it was game time, then players with three weeks of play time would have all the skills, which is quite a while in real time.
  Posted 22 months ago by RobotGymnast | Permalink
- Right now, the game is tuned more for alpha play, which means everything gets done as quickly as possible so we can all experience it and help find bugs in it.
  Once the game goes live, I'm sure that all of your suggestions will be implemented (with the possible exception of the second one). They can't have people knowing all the skills in three weeks!
  Posted 22 months ago by Aldaris | Permalink
- I think the downside to longer learning times is the lack of alternate quests in the system. Particularly at lower levels the quick learn time to get to the next "thing to do"--be it learning to garden, use the frying pan for the first time, or interact with pigs and chickens--is welcome.
  On the flip side, as an experienced player, I'm not sure this is really a game about "skills". Not in the incarnation of the game we've played so far. Having learned everything there is to learn to this point (BA3 and its 1280 days aside) I can say it isn't the thought of new skills that dictates my play - its chasing after other goals (grrrr.. street trophies...) as well as player interaction that keeps me going (for now).
  Posted 22 months ago by Another Chris | Permalink
- I'm guessing there will probably be more quests in the release version, too.
  Posted 22 months ago by RobotGymnast | Permalink
- Longer learning times are coming, maybe for beta.
  Posted 22 months ago by Tingly Claus | Permalink
- What about a minimum level needing to be obtained before you can start learning certain skills?
  Posted 22 months ago by Fizio | Permalink
- Skills already do have a minimum level, as far as I know. I believe they're all set to 0, though. So I'm guessing that'll happen!
  Posted 22 months ago by RobotGymnast | Permalink
- @Aldaris
  "Right now, the game is tuned more for alpha play"
  Ok, it sounds fair. I didn't think of that. ^^
  @Another Chris: that is what I was wondering.
  Surely the first skills have to be learnt quickly, but it's mostly the middle of the tree (where I am right now) which seems a little too fast.
  I'm with you on the lack of alternate quest, though. It would be true at the first levels if skills are long to learn; but if you can learn the skills very fast, you will quickly run out of quests either, right?
  @RobotGymnast: I like the idea of being able to learn only in the game. It seems more logical to me.
  Posted 22 months ago by Moumoushou | Permalink
- Their logic is that the rock learns for us. I don't think anyone is thrilled with the prospect of running the game nonstop, so I'm good with the logic.
  Posted 22 months ago by Tingly Claus | Permalink
- At least the emblem requirements add an extra barrier of entry to the higher level skills, but I do think that if really high level skills took a lot of time and effort to obtain, people would be more inclined to specialize, which would obviously lead to better interaction.
  Posted 22 months ago by Tofu Casserole | Permalink
- Maybe it would be exponentially larger to go down different paths.
  Posted 22 months ago by Ani Laurel | Permalink
- No one has mentioned... they might just stop the clock when you aren't logged into the world, and kick you out after an inactive period.
  Posted 22 months ago by Travinara | Permalink
- @Travinara: We DID discuss only learning while in-game. However, kicking out inactive players would be completely useless, as it's very easy to throw in a script which will just walk back and forth, or water a nearby tree. But what if we disabled learning while players were dead? That would mean that either you have to write a really complicated script to be self-sufficient (in which case, why play the game?) or you'd have to massively stockpile food before going inactive, which is barely worth it.
  Posted 22 months ago by RobotGymnast | Permalink
- Meh, then the math is right... it'll take about a month to learn all of the skills. The general attention span will be about 3 months, and people will return to their consoles and other online games shortly after. It is too fast. Yes the game is addictive, but where is the incentive for progression or engagement beyond that point? Even if you double all of the existing learning times, it's still not enough. Also, I think lengthening the early skills would be counter productive. The up front content is intricate enough to keep people amused and distracted, but if the core of the 'busy' is over in a month... I think I'll keep my subscriptions to my other games.
  Have you thought about a 'must be level X' requirement on a few of the upper skills?
  I'm not trying to be negative here, just realistic about how the general public behaves. We're flighty, get bored easily... and if it looks to be 'done' then it's good enough and we move on to consume the next 'new thing'.
  Posted 22 months ago by Travinara | Permalink
- Nice thread: all of these (and more are things we've considered). To go back to Moumoushou's original list:
  • More skills: we add about one a week right now, if you average it out. This will increase for a bit over the next 10-12 weeks before settling back down, but there will always be more coming. ("Launch", for this game, is kinda when we start *really* building the game, instead of tools and infrastructure, etc.) We have about 150 planned out (vs 80 public) and I'm sure 6 months from now there will be enough ideas between us and all of you to come up with another 100 ...
  • No learning while not playing: for the reasons already discussed, we don't think this'll work …
  • More achievements limitations: … but this (and favor points, etc.) have a similar effect to "no learning while not playing" in that it skill learning will happen much faster when you are playing.
  - Longer learning times: As we "tune" for beta and the eventual 24/7 release, skill learning times will definitely get longer (with the first simple steps in any part of the tree remaining something like 10 minutes, so it is not so painful).
  But it won't be as simple as doubling them all. Instead, it will probably be based on "diminishing returns": the more skills you learn, the harder it will be to learn additional ones. If a skill takes an hour to learn when you know nothing else, it might take 10 hours or even a day to learn once you already know 30 skills.
  And, some additional things we're considering:
  • Using a "cooldown" (as with meditation and teleportation) after the longer skill learnings so you have to wait before starting the next one.
  • Having checkpoints along the way to learning the very complicated skills (things that take a day or more) with quests, challenges or achievements required to keep the progress going.
  • Putting a hard cap on the number of skills you can know, so you might have to unlearn some old ones before learning new ones (to increase specialization).
  Posted 22 months ago by stoot barfield | Permalink
- Sounds great and nicely paced out...glad that we can still help with ideas once its launched :)
  Posted 22 months ago by Gabi | Permalink
- Thanks for your answers, Stoot!
  Those ideas are great. I especially like the diminishing returns idea. Maybe it can be mixed with the specialization limitation. Learning skills in one domain will make other domains skills much longer to learn, at least at middle and high levels.
  Posted 22 months ago by Moumoushou | Permalink
- Thanks for updating us, some neat plans / ideas. I like the checkpoints on the complicated skills, no starting it and then nothing for a day or more would be good.
  Posted 22 months ago by Teena | Permalink
- @stoot, you've given this much thought and I like what you've got planned.
  One thought on skills... Perhaps when you create your character you must choose a discipline/set of skills your character will be adept at. Skills within that set can be learned much faster than those outside that area. Switching your discipline/set would be possible but perhaps would have some sort of consequence such as having to relearn skills you already knew from your prior discipline/set.
  The goal being specialization, but not limiting the ability to learn any skill you want.
  Posted 22 months ago by en | Permalink
- @en: I like the idea, but not at the creation moment, because it would be hard to choose before having played to the game.
  I know where I'd want to specialize now that I tried a little of all the activities currently available. I certainly wouldn't have done the same choices the first time I played.
  Posted 22 months ago by Moumoushou | Permalink
- -42 "Putting a hard cap on the number of skills you can know, so you might have to unlearn some old ones before learning new ones (to increase specialization)."
  I like being able to do alot of things. Also, there are interconnectivities between many of the skills. What's the purpose to limiting the number of skills.
  Signed,
  liberal arts major
  Posted 22 months ago by Mac Rapalicious | Permalink
- I imagine it is to make the game more social. How much of a pain it is for the solo player will depend on how big the skill tree gets to be and what the cap is. If we can have 80% of the skills, it's not that big of a deal. If we can only have 10 skills, it'll be a big deal.
  Posted 22 months ago by Tingly Claus | Permalink
- Maybe instead of not learning certain skills, it would be possible to just specialize in certain ones. For example, recipes made by specialized chefs would give more energy, and they would be able to make more advanced dishes as well. Awesome pots could only be created by master craftsmen.
  Posted 22 months ago by Aldaris | Permalink