Topic

A short critique of Glitch, as a game.

The problem with Glitch is that under the shiny polish of whacky cartoon art and delightful sounds, it lacks depth. When I first read up about it, I was pretty hopeful. The idea of giving players the power to interact and shape with the world, complex, intertwining systems, a playground, a sandbox (of sorts) - All that sounded very attractive, so I gave it a shot and applied to get into the game on launch day.

I was drawn in by the incentives to help each other out, the discovery of new items, the bureaucracy (the best). I thought, this game has the potential to be a great interactive experience. Unfortunately, all the initial novelty wore off quickly. 

I think the tipping point, when I realised it was all an effort in vain, was when I had my little meat farm set up in an apartment in Groddle Towers. Meat prices had been dropping, with the massive influx of players, each one trying to undercut the other. The concept of an economy is non-existent, when a player is easily able to sell his wares to a vendor for a decent price. To me, the tool vendor is a money-printing device. I dump my Sammiches in and it spits currants at me. 

The auction system undermines the value of resources in the game. Why take the time to learn a skill and harvest for yourself, when with your own stream of income, you can just grab something off the auctions? They're never too expensive, especially when you look at the time it saves you. Everything is at your fingertips, there's a disconnect between players when it comes to trading and businesses.

I got bored of street projects after my 2nd experience. Dumping virtual resources into an abyss to 'unlock' a map. That's not much of shaping the world, and the exploration isn't much to talk about either. Sure there's art, but it feels like the world lacks meaning or purpose. What separates this map from the next? The presence of a certain vendor? Eventually, they all fly by like a blur, because it's the same resources over and over again. Trees, animals or mining nodes, ad naseum. Places do not serve a purpose apart from being host to these harvesting stations and players have to 'upkeep'. Likewise for Rook Attacks, I grew tired of it after my 1st experience. I finally got to put Piety and Imagination to use... wait, what's this? Another resource dumping mini-game? Ugh. 

The game's fundamental design is unbalanced. It's too easy to sustain life, and there isn't much threat of collapse, when everything is so easy to re-create. It feels like another one of those Facebook games, just with a better, rudimentary social framework. It's all about keeping the player continually harvesting and crafting consumables.

One of the 'sales pitch's I read was that "There are 1000-plus items and 90 skills.". True as that may be, they all fall into skill trees and can easily be lumped into categories. Animal stuff, Alchemical stuff, Mining stuff, Gardening stuff, Foods and Drinks, Machines, Blocks and Fuels. It's all on the auction page. That's the extent of the variety. The only interesting things I found were really, the toys, but the limitations of those also left me disappointed.

I think that the structure of Glitch leaves it open to huge potential, but the direction it took has ultimately let it down. Content-driven material only gets you so far, eventually it's going to run out, and players will leave when there's nothing new. As steep is its learning curve, there are very good reasons why EVE Online is an extremely successful game. Glitch seems to have gone in the opposite direction, with oversimplification to appeal to mass populations. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the visual/aural aesthetics of the game, all I am saying is that the world could use a little more depth.

Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Sadly, I have to agree. After one month I'm already a little bored. The Zilloween stuff was a nice addition at least it got my attention for a few days. I know the game is still new and there is a lot planned but I wonder if any of it is going to be different. 

    Of course, I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. I've become very attached to my house and animals. 
    Posted 14 months ago by Papa Legba Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have been feeling the exact same. Each day that goes by I play less and less.
    Posted 14 months ago by MF Jeremy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I do agree that they could do with upping their game a little, but there are some very interesting zones, the Ancestral Lands, Ajaya etc with their own mechanics however there needs to be seriously more than this. We need better, more configurable, ways of interacting with each other for us to truly take this to the next level of game.

    I spent today running a user created quest for Halloween, and whilst it went great and everyone had a lot of fun there were a lot of times when I wished I could get my 'players' to interact on a far grander scale with the world around them.

    Obviously its a very tricky thing to accomplish in a program, but I do have great hopes for this game. The game designers have come the closest I've ever seen to getting a proper community together of people who want to experiment with the world theyre in, so I'm sticking aroud to see what else they've got up their sleeves.
    Posted 14 months ago by SacredBob Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The game designers have come the closest I've ever seen to getting a proper community together of people who want to experiment with the world theyre in, so I'm sticking aroud to see what else they've got up their sleeves. 
    SacredBob

    I agree with SacredBob. I used to play Ragnarok Online not because the game was great, but because my friends were there and we enjoyed each others' virtual company. In Glitch I have found a great community of mmo players and fantastic devs and support. I wish I could play more, but Real Life™ must, by necessity, come first... unless I go to work for Tiny Speck that is in which case they'd be one and the same. ^_^

    — Mal'akhPrimate of LemPrimus Inter Pares of the Orthodox Church of the Giants of Ur,Hubby of ArannaShriner of Mullangi Meda
    Posted 14 months ago by Mal'akh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, I had mixed feelings when I saw the 'Secret Missions' thread in the forums. On the one hand, it seemed sad that the users had to create their own fun on the forums, like kids who play pretend with cardboard boxes and what-not. On the other hand, it was nice to see players interacting outside of the game, trying to make things fun.

    It's a love-hate relationship with the Glitch user-base. I sometimes wonder, "Why? Why do you persist?" (Agent Smith), but you have to admit, they are a jovial bunch.

    When they were preparing for launch and telling stories of that one guy who took down all those wood trees to make his own lumber business, I had in mind, that players would be able to create dedicated shop fronts. So there'd be tangible places of commerce, and possibly user-concerted efforts towards zoning and things like that.

    Also, I have this crazy idea that people would be able to go down the path of a Bureaucrat, to erect skyscrapers, develop cities and multinational companies. Purist Glitchians would be able to protest, tear down concrete buildings and fight back against these Bureaucrats, haha. End-game content, yeah!
    Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My interest has been declining a bit as well, though the Zille-o-Ween holiday has provided some fun and interesting new things to do for a while.  I joined the game based on the promise of creativity, which I thought meant the game play, not the background art, and so far has not been realized.  I can craft most of the items in the game now, except the last few recipes, but they are all pre-set.  I didn't even have to do anything to figure out any of the recipes except in alchemy, which really only required counting the colored dots.   I had hoped for a much smarter game than just a big click-fest.

    The Dev's keep promising more really cool new stuff soon, such as customizing houses and even areas of the world.  This is the main hope that keeps me coming back, and I tend to think of this period as an extended open Beta, rather than a real launch.  Right now I'm building up my skills and levels, so that when the new features become available, I'll be able to join in right away.  I'll probably start playing less, but check in now and again to check if the new features have been added yet.
    Posted 14 months ago by KhaKhonsu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with most of what you've said, but remember that Glitch is a very new game.  Anything that you play for a month will get old once you've boiled it down to its basic components.  Games like these are interesting because they evolve.  I'm confident that, with time, there will be a slew of new features for you to get sick of.  Zilloween is a good example.
    Posted 14 months ago by Emf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As a released/Gold-status game, yes it is new... but I wonder why none of these concerns were voiced during beta? Or did other things get in the way?
    Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Even including alpha the game is very new.  My point is that an MMO never really "goes gold".
    Posted 14 months ago by Emf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hi Raiyne, back when my group was destructive and active, this is how co-op we were, I just want your opinion if that was pretty interactive.

    Group Info of "The Rook" -> Converted to a good group called Glitch God's Alliance
    I like changing the name from time to time...

    ^-2-/-G means "Up to no good". Might be a useful warning in Global Chat.

    We have our own Bank! www.glitch.com/groups/RDOKT...

    We have some basic daily goals for our free time:

    -If someone somehow avoids a bug and steals your stuff we will take care of him/her.
    -Kidnap pigs and sell them to vendors or just keep them, wipe the streets of pigs. (Make sure to learn Herdkeeping and have some pig bait) DO NOT GET PIGS NAMED "ROOK BAIT" . You do get 350cr from pigs or 50 favor points. Our Plan right now is to transfer them somewhere secret, necromancers will be in charge of the pigs, and will know what to do from there.
    -Buy lots of Rook dice, do damage in residential areas and leave the scene. (Toy vendors at Jacob's Climb, Marylpole Mount, etc.)
    -Offer bodyguard protection in baqala, here's how it works: a juju trys to take someone's stuff, they give it to you, you give it back to them, they pay you ahead of time for the service.
    -Own a bank led by whoever...
    -Raid Baqala and Zhambau.
    -Don't forget tree poison! XD
    -Ruining people's mining experience by mining a rock out before someone else gets a chance
    -Littering houses so it ruins market value.
    -Selling things for real cheap on the AH from time to time, or buying out things so it will not be available. :D
    -Stealing from gardens! How could I forget!
    -Devs are now chaos devs, and Drug Dealers are given a name too.
    -We will also kill tree diversity!
    -We are partners with Purple Thumb! Lead by Don Draper.
    -We have our new Splanking Army to avenge people and harm the Anti-Rooks. :D
    -If someone is trying to stop a rook attack, we will increase the number of people there by over 7 to destroy the orb.
    -Make people sneeze, grab the beans, and enjoy.
    -When in someone's house leave dirt on the floor.

    Relying on chat might not work out well, but will be useful for pig capturing due to the limits provided.

    Rest assured, you will figure most things out on your own.
    Posted 14 months ago by Rook Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot has said on a number if occasions that he's set out to create a place where people could play, and it interests me how this is happening in Glitch.

    It's perfectly wonderful that players can and do create their own quests and games. For instance in beta:
    - there were quite a few treasure hunts that occurred, as less players means that notes stuck around longer
    - Dr Yum Yum had a Ponzi scheme set up
    - people were worshipping the dragon with gifts, and adding notes to the secret shrine if stoot (check the Glitch Strategy blog for articles about this)

    Post beta I have observed:
    - role-playing 'kingdom of Ur' and 'Orthodox religion of Ur' groups spring to mind.
    -Rook has provided his chaotic evil plans for the game, and I immediately decided I didn't like his plans and would contribute to efforts to mitigate the damage. Playing the eternal game of good vs evil, or chaos vs order, depending on your views
    - there's the Ajaya Bliss dance, parties, and conga lines to participate in.
    - groups and individuals who look after the ecology of a specific part of Ur, making sure resources are available for all.
    - the greeter program, or running around showering surplus stuff on new people, or hiding it around the world...

    It's a bit odd after decades of being passively fed entertainment to be responsible for deciding how you will play, but it's certainly what is currently keeping me playing Glitch.

    (apologies for weird spelling mistakes, I typed this on my phone, on a bus)l
    Posted 14 months ago by Eldorian Subscriber! | Permalink
  • P.S. I loved playing with cardboard boxes etc. as a kid. It was totally cool!
    Posted 14 months ago by Eldorian Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hi Rook, I've seen you around on some of the chat groups. I do appreciate your passion, but personally I feel that most of the user-generated activities are ultimately un-engaging and futile, especially since the game is structured a certain way, acts of mischief are usually efforts to swim against the (rather large) tide.

    A large percentage of the activities you listed, I simply cannot really find... fun. A lot of them just seem like a form of trolling that is manifested in the world of Glitch. Mining, stealing, dumping stuff, ultimately leave no impact unless you take joy in frustrating other people or something. Likewise for some of the things Eldorian mentioned, 'dance parties and conga lines' - is it that fun to jump around in a 2D world, or idle in a conga line? (I tried once but we kept falling off due to a bug), it was nice to be in that moment, but the novelty wears thin, quickly. The whole thing about maintaining the world is that it's what the game was meant to be about at its core, petting and watering and feeding. Just taking it up as a duty / game of good vs evil doesn't make it any more fun. It's still a grind of clicking (or key presses), leading to animations. It's not much of an interaction really, and if you don't do it, someone else will.

    It seems that most of the possibilities in the world are basically the same thing, reskinned. Whether you are mining, harvesting crops or nibbling pigs, it's the same action, essentially. The difference is purely cosmetic, and the crafting possibilities, which also fall into very limited categories. There are interesting items here and there, but after you've discovered and played around with them for a bit, then what? There seems to be little synergy within the world of Glitch, and certain crafting specialities feel sorely lacking, like Engineering and Blockmaking. All that just to create an item easily bought from a vendor? Or a silly brick to dump into a street project?

    It could be so much more. Perhaps players with the skills of technology could actually create things, interactive objects. Maybe with a developer tool, inventive users can submit their own creations into the game world. Player-generated content is very powerful. Let the community create the world as well, let them make places or objects and items that perform functions and serve purposes, and then, let the users craft them.

    There's nothing from with simply using your imagination for fun, but it only goes so far as an experience. If I want to daydream and improvise with household items, I'll do that. If not I'll play a video-game that allows me to fulfil a fantasy, be it shooting bad guys or pretending to be a medieval wizard. The point is that the focus of a game is to provide an interactive experience, something beyond yourself. Just like people read novels to observe and learn, people play video games to well... play.

    It's a special medium which allows players to interact with things not normally available in life. In a video game, I can stop and observe the extent of my influence in a world, or the power that I have amassed in a character or army or even in an FPS, accomplish objectives etc. What is it that Glitch wants to offer to its players? If it is social, is it successfully allowing players to connect and build relationships in the game? If not, how can it improve? If it is trying to provide a sandbox for player interaction, then what are its shortcomings, which restrict the player's ability or freedom?

    I'd like to hear what some of the developers have to say with regards to this topic of game design and Glitch, a field that I occasionally dabble in. I enjoy looking and analysing at systems and figuring out why games built a certain way are fun and engaging and why others can be a drag.
    Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Raiyne -- I think the one thing that you don't seem to entirely grasp is that this game is about IMAGINATION. The fact that you view children playing with boxes as sad instead of absolutely freaking brilliant leads me to believe that this isn't the game for you. I still play with boxes as an adult, though admittedly it's often to taunt cats with them and watch a box turn into their new favorite toy/fort/bed/scratching post/snack.

    I've been playing Glitch since late alpha, and I rarely get bored. In fact, I usually have so much to do that I jot down a little list so I don't forget. Sure, there are features that I'm looking forward to that haven't yet been implemented, but in the meantime, I make my own fun. And get my RL friends to join Glitch so they can be a part of it too.

    If this isn't your style of game, then so be it--not every game is for every person. But I have to say that it seems like you're missing the big picture here, and that's not a fault of the game design, but of a poor fit between game and player.
    Posted 14 months ago by karibean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Agree with karibean. I just can't get enough of this game, and though I understand what you guys mean when you say the game could have more depth, I'd like to hear some clear suggestions.

    When building a new street, would you like to choose what it looks like? Are you disappointed that things at auctions are cheap? Do you want the game to be more difficult? Do you want more quests?

    Start an Ideas topic and we can discuss each of them. But I do think this game is wonderfully amazing and entertaining so far.
    Posted 14 months ago by Mandy.23 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love Glitch and find it greatly entertaining but I don't agree with Karibean that its just a false fit between player and game. The game doesn't have a lot of depth compared with any other game and sure you can 'create' things to do as players but its nice to have actual coded in gameplay aswell.

    Glitch is clearly a game fit for many people and just because it lacks content right now doesn't mean that its not fit for this one player.

    Nytician.
    Posted 14 months ago by Nytician Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As far as comparing this game to the "extremely successful" Eve Online which recently laid off 120 employees, I think it's a pretty unfair comparison.  I doubt Tiny Speck even has 120 employees and I know they haven't had as much development and up time as the venerable Eve Online.

    I don't want to sound dismissive as I think you do have some salient points and normally I would agree with everything you had to say.  Except this game has utterly charmed the pants off me.  And it's pretty hard to take a man with no pants seriously.  So I'll just say that different people like different games for different reasons.
    Posted 14 months ago by Warrender Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Karibean

    I have no problem with stripped down designs to allow for imagination. I absolutely love create-your-own-adventure books, dungeons and dragons, rogue-likes and even dwarf fortress, opaque UI aside. What makes those games so fantastic is the structure of the game world which allows you to apply your imagination. You perform actions or make meaningful decisions which allow you to role-play in the context of those video games.

    I think that concept might be missing, or perhaps, not to strongly presented toward the player in Glitch. When a player's actions lack impact, they don't feel motivated to continue.

    Again, this begs the question of what Glitch wants to be? I think it has the potential for some real, tangible interaction between serious players who want to be able to actually do something to shape a virtual world, instead of grinding away at poisoning trees, kidnapping pigs or dumping resources into street projects. Having said that, if it's meant to be a shallow virtual backdrop meant to be for a user to 'imagine' his fun, then that seems like a rather lousy playground to me.

    What is fun in this game? Discovery and exploration is usually always fun. You slowly get a grasp of the world, you see items and you go "Hey, that's cool.", but after a while, you know what it's about, and there's not much else to discover, that's when gameplay is supposed to keep you coming back.

    Minecraft is a logical comparison in this discussion. It's as much about imagination as a recent game can get. Graphics are really minimalistic and the rules are simple. You break things down and you build stuff. It's virtual lego (now with moving parts/mechanisms!). The reason why it has such longevity as a game is because the game gives you freedom to create almost anything you want, you're only limited by your imagination and determination. In a sense, the game is a medium in which you channel your imagination.

    When we come back to Glitch however, sure you can imagine all you want, but most of it's still in your head and many of your actions towards the world are limited, as are the mechanics. If you want to create a bank, great! Why can't you actually do it? Why is it you have to play pretend, while you're already pretending (in a game)? Let's say you want to be an engineer, great! Oh wait, you can only craft certain things. Why can't you build toys? Why can't chickens die? Why can't you dig your own patch? Why do you only have limited, determined holes to plant trees in? Why can't we create buildings on maps for gathering/social locations? I understand there have to be some limitations when it comes to designing a world, but we are rather restricted in our interactions with it.

    It's a long way down the rabbit hole and the argument for imagination only goes so far.

    EDIT: I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, with this discussion, because that's really not my intention. I think it's important for us as players, if we care at all for a game, to voice our concerns for it, especially so when it is constantly evolving as such. To do so otherwise, would be a disservice to the player-developer relationship that this community clearly has.
    Posted 14 months ago by Raiyne Subscriber! | Permalink
  • For me, I find the social aspect is what I come back for. I don't really do much making/mining/grinding (though, I do a bit on occasion). Glitch to me, is about talking to other people, and yes, making your own fun. While I am definitely looking forward to some of the upcoming features, if nothing (besides new wardrobe items, obviously) was ever added to Glitch again, I'd still be quite happy to pop back in 3-4 times a week for a few hours just to see how everyone is going, keep in contact with people and take some snaps for The SartUrialist.

    If anything I'd like the world to be opened up for more user created content, like SacredBob's Halloween quest. It would have been awesome if SacredBob could have locked notes in place for a certain period (no, I don't want to throw this off-topic with that remark, I KNOW it would be abused by griefers), or even create NPCs that lasted for the duration of Halloween (Maybe notes/npcs could only show up in you accepted the quest from the user who created it?). Obviously how those things would work, I don't know. But I think there are a lot of us in the community that do like to play with empty boxes and want to immerse ourselves even further into making Ur a bit more alive, and create interesting experiences for others.

    Edit: I didn't refresh before I posted so I missed your last post, Raiyne. I totally agree that allowing users to have a stronger hand in adding value to Ur would be great.
    Posted 14 months ago by DTC Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Raiyne I think your write was quite apt.  I myself have been wondering where exactly I am going in this game too.  I continue to learn, feed, plant, harvest, mine - I haven't even bothered to do any of the fuelling yet. But I am bored.  I love the (yes love is a word I am using here) the people I know and the friends I have met and the community of chat - but I do get tired very quickly these days.  Zilloween badges for me was a let down since I did not complete them - but I loved doing the pumpkins but as usual, greedy people taking all the resources so they can sell on auction left me with lengths of time wasting to obtain my own.  I don't see the point of buying from auction personally, I want to achieve things myself.  Tho' I am tired of badges now, it feels like my 12yo's year book where he gets merit badges - am I being trained here?
    But saying that, I am not jumping ship before the 'fat lady' sings.
    Posted 14 months ago by Really Pissed Off Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Tiny Speck has already stated what they are working on right now to improve on the game and make it more interactive and meaningfully social. Read the blog on "Our one month anniversary" here: http://www.glitch.com/blog/ . Skip ahead to the last section on "What's coming next".

    Personally, I would like to see more of the story-line developed, like what we got a taste of in beta when the animals, rocks, trees, etc. would talk to us and tell us little pieces of Glitch's history or give us glimpses into their personalities or those of the Giants. I'm not sure why that was taken away. Maybe they are still tweaking it, although nothing related to story-line was mentioned in the blog, so perhaps it's not a priority any more.

    By the way, I've been playing as much as I possibly can since late alpha, and I'm not bored. Depends on the person.
    Posted 14 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree especially with the comments on the economy. It seems kind of crazy to me that people spend all day long farming Sparkly and then dump it into a vendor, as that's the best way to make money. In a proper economy people would be farming sparkly and then selling it to other players to make things out of. The really weird/amazing thing to me is that you always get the same price for your rocks regardless of how much you sell or how many people are selling, i.e. the laws of supply and demand don't apply at all. In the real world you'd get almost nothing for selling sparkly right now because so many people are doing it.

    It just seems a huge waste to me that players spend so much time farming resources that are then instantly getting removed from the game.

    Part of the problem with this is that what you can make with rocks, etc, isn't really all that useful or valuable anyway. After learning a few of the basic skills the other skills are more or less superfluous. Since the game mechanics are so limited, new skills do essentially the same things as old skills (they provide you with resources and/or energy that you then use to make more resources and/or energy). It's a circular regression, and it's not very interesting. 

    I can spend hours mining, then donate that stuff so my new skills come along faster, and then... use those new skills so I can mine even faster or obtain similar resources in the same way (clicking and waiting) that I can also donate to make yet more skills go faster ...? 

    I can see that a lot of people like the social aspect, so I can see why some people continue to play. For me, the community is the worst aspect of this game, and I've played just about every MMO there is and found fun people to talk with in every game. In this game all of the social interactions are very limited and feel vaguely meaningless. People are constantly giving each other free stuff, which isn't very meaningful considering that currants (and therefore items) are so stupidly easy to obtain, and "parties" which consist of people standing around and talking aren't particularly fun either. I mean, I could do that in a chat room. It's a major disappointment to me that  there's so little player interaction in this game, I really have no reason to talk or play with other players at all.

    Seems to me like the game is based around farming, with some chat rooms added to make it not completely boring. Here and there you get moments of coolness but mostly it's just about farming (the number of threads discussing farming seem to confirm that for me).
    Posted 14 months ago by victoriah Subscriber! | Permalink
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    ===================Read the post linked below (by stoot barfield)===================

    http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/10284/#reply-107391

    ===============================================================================
    Posted 14 months ago by TomC Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In addition to TomC's link above, read my link from 3 posts up. Before complaining about what the game is lacking, it's a good idea to educate oneself on what new content will be released in the near future.
    Posted 14 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love Glitch and I'm not bored.  The various proposals I see in this forum for changes to AH and the game's economics worry me a bit.  I find the AH totally impersonal, and direct player-to-player trading also is not particularly social unless the players make it so.  I don't see that forcing economic interdependence will make the game more social; it will, however, close off certain styles of play that some may enjoy.  Also, a player-driven economy could lead to a form of non-optional PvP play that is non-violent, but still PvP. I like that the game provides the opportunity to explore collaboration and in-game social interaction that is driven by something other than economic needs and desires.

    I would, however, like features that make it easier to communicate with other players and organize multi-player in-game events.  I'd also love for players to be able to make items that are truly unique and allow for real creativity. These could provide a new basis for social interaction and player-driven quests. It also could allow Glitch to have things that are rare and hard to get, while preserving the "culture of abundance" that some of us value in the game.

    For example: Let us import graphics into the game to make pictures we can hang on a wall in our house, or to create a window with a unique view.  Let us make garden sculptures that we can place in our yard.  Give us the ability to exchange such objects with other players. Let us submit our pictures and garden sculptures to an art contest, perhaps juried by established artists to narrow the selection, and then voted on by players.  Let the winners "sell" a limited edition of their works.  Provide features to facilitate "house tours" where players can share their creativity and socialize.  And so on...
    Posted 14 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Guys be patient with TS, the game has only been out for a month!
    Posted 14 months ago by Friend Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "It could be so much more. Perhaps players with the skills of technology could actually create things, interactive objects. Maybe with a developer tool, inventive users can submit their own creations into the game world. Player-generated content is very powerful. Let the community create the world as well, let them make places or objects and items that perform functions and serve purposes, and then, let the users craft them."
    Extremelly well said Rayne :)

    I'll add my link to the discussion as well "in case you missed it"
    www.glitch.com/forum/genera...

    Soon we'll be able to make a good list of those topics as they're getting more and more common
    Posted 14 months ago by Lemo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can see both sides of this. Part of the issue, I think, is that the low-level game doesn't do a very good job of setting the tone for the late-level game. You are constantly being given quests at the beginning - essentially being told what to do. Then the quests dry up and you have learned most of the skills and you sit there scratching your head, wishing the rock would give you something to do.

    The answer is of course (as many people above have pointed out) to make your own fun. But the early game is not training you to do this. It seems like a metaphor, as it reminds me of the feeling I had when I was done college - I've spent 20 years doing what other people tell me and now I can do anything? But I'm no good at "anything"!

    I do find myself drifting away from Glitch now and then, and that's ok. I'm confident stoot & the gang have it all in hand, and indeed, every time I come back for a visit there's something new to play with. It'll get there.
    Posted 14 months ago by Rock Opera Jr Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 to everything Raiyne said.

    OTOH, I think Glitch is what it's designed to be - it's the Wii of the MMO world, and the devs have said that they're trying to capture a wide audience that would not usually play this type of game. It's a fun diversion, but hardcore gamers will inevitably get bored.
    Posted 14 months ago by Black Francis Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've wondered about this a bit myself, but for the moment I'm still suitably amused.  The Zille-O-Ween stuff was great fun and I'm hoping for Glitchmas or some other types of activities to amuse us as well.

    I enjoy street projects - the excitement, the atmosphere, and I've trained myself up so I'm good for Rook attacks now.  Lately I don't have much time to play but I hope to get involved in that soon.  Basically the house customization, more area building, group halls, etc. - all the stuff that has been promised for end of this year into next - excites me.  So I'm for the moment happy to play whenever I feel like it and see what else the devs have in store for us.

    I would agree that there needs to be some more high-level quests.  You could easily attach a quest to some of the more monotonous things needed to get higher skills, like the "Cook ___ amount" and it would feel more like something to look forward to rather than random grinding for an achievement.   Maybe it's psychological for me - I prefer achievements as the silly incidentals rather than the quest, and late-game currently all there is to do is get achievements.

    The one thing I hope they never change though, oddly enough, is the skill system.  I like to play when I want, with who I want.  And if that's at 2am by myself with none of my friends online and I've had a bad day and I just feel like milking 500 butterflies to watch them talk leet speak at me and not talking to anyone - that's my option.  And if I choose not to play for a day or two, I don't come back to punishments either.  Glitch doesn't require making 8 million "friends" to get stuff done or to be played an optimized way.  I hate casual games that force me to interact with others, as anti-social as that sounds.  There really aren't too many "good" MMOs/Facebook games/whatever you want to compare Glitch to that let you play by yourself.  If I want to do everything, I'm allowed to, and I like that.  If I want to buy ore off of someone who finds mining more entertaining than me, or trade it for an animal egg, I can do that too.  The point is, it's my choice.

    And oddly enough, even though Glitch IS so social, I think the self-sufficiency is important.  Because when people get together to do candy parties or make giant trains or help each other out by shouting egg locations or stopping by to help peat quests, it feels more real because the people on the other end made that choice.  It's more like real, happy interaction with people helping each other, not just going through the motions they are required to. then never speaking again.

    Well there's my two currents.  Good job TS and I'm looking forward to see where you'll be taking us through the new year!
    Posted 14 months ago by Space Core Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 100% agree with the OP.  One of the things i'm really struggling with is the concept of leveling.

    The first 10 or so levels is pretty rewarding, due to the $ award and the fact that your energy and mood are extended.  However, at around level 20, it really loses purpose.  By that time, you'll likely have a high enough cooking / drink making skill to recover energy and mood very easily.

    Yes, I still religiously dump my music boxes and what nots into shrines for XP, but I really have no idea why, since level seems to play almost no importance in the game.
    Posted 14 months ago by Hunter Gathers Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think I agree with Raiyne. Way back when we had a discussion about 'things to do when you run out of quests' and I remember finding that this wasn't at all what I expected from a computer game. Not in 2011.

    When I start to play a game, it's because I am bored and want to entertain myself, and want the game to respond to my performance. But if I am bored inside the game and need to find ways to occupy myself that the game mechanics don't reward or even acknowledge, then the game has failed me- I would rather find something else to do in real life- and SHOULD! Because considering all the ways in which a modern computer game can be responsive to my actions, when it just leaves me alone to do my own thing, and the thing I've done doesn't have any real impact on further game play, it's not fun anymore.

    I mean, how long can you enjoy a conga line, or clicking and clicking to give 499 people a piece of candy, or waiting for a rock to spawn so you can mine together, or making pictures in Plexus? People keep talking about how creative these player-made activities are...guys, not really, they aren't, not beyond the original 'oh, that's cool' point. They're the virtual equivalent of balancing a pencil on the tip of your finger to kill time.

    I believe you're doing all of these things because you're bored with the original game. The game is not giving you enough to do, so you're having a jumping party and calling it creative...this creeps me out a little, because this 'creativity' that the game supposedly 'allows' is actually extremely restricted. Every time someone cites these things I want to beg them to turn off the game and go be creative in real life. Where it actually matters. Where you wouldn't be wasting time.

    Or even go play another game which will give you a bigger, proper playground, with proper tools to express yourself. A game designed for being creative. Like Minecraft, for instance. (disclaimer: I don't play it, but I can clearly see the potential)

    Yes, meeting people and chatting and making friends is great, but you can do that in a broken elevator, too. You can even make up a game while you wait for it to be fixed, but that doesn't mean the elevator has reached its full potential being stuck.

    So. Why am I still here if I complain this much? Well, there's many reasons for which I love Glitch, which I won't bother listing here, but I think, alas, the main reason I haven't just forgotten about Glitch is I got used to coming here. Months of seeing the world actually changing in alpha and beta will draw you in- but new players haven't got that, and may lose interest. I am curious to see if there is more, but my patience is running out. 

    What did I expect to appear very soon (aka it should be here by now ) after launch?

    A more challenging, more defined Rook plot
    More unique quests that fall outside of the 'learn how to use your new skill' pattern, such as the Rook Egg, the Eesti Life Catalogue, the Tower... these are fine, but they are too few and too far between. 
    More mini-games
    More special areas with their own rules such as the Ancestral Lands
    A more creative street building process than the dumping of goods Raiyne described so well.

    I suppose some of those may yet appear, but when, when??? I found Zilleoween to be cute but quickly boring. I could cook new stuff, but that's still just cooking, and I could click like a maniac to give hundreds of pieces of candy. The carving of pumpkins was cool, but again that's still just a couple of clicks and you're done. 

    I don't think that's the height of possibility here- for me, it's the low. And that's based on in-game evidence!!! I expect more.
    Posted 14 months ago by Cefeida Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I kind of agree with you on all points, but... for me, it makes Glitch a viable game within the context of my life.  If I was constantly hooked like I was when I first started in Beta, I'd get nothing done.  As it is, my knitting has been suffering, and I have multiple unfinished projects that I must finish before doing and Christmas knitting (but I digress)...

    My personal style is to use the game to unwind.  I keep an eye on Global chat, as it makes me laugh most days, but rarely do I really join in.  I'm a bit of a loner, tending to my piggies, my garden, completing whatever quests need completion, and when I'm bored for the day, I get my work done.  If it was all SUPER AWESOME NEW STUFF all the time, I'd be either unproductive, or all, "Agh, this article is boring, I'm going to take a study break..." 
    Posted 14 months ago by Eliza Thornybur Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it would be fun if you could stand on certain objects that are dropped, such as hay bales and blocks, and that if you drop one of these objects onto another, it would stack up.  Them, we'd literally have the building blocks to build whatever we wanted.  I can think of endless possibilities here!
    Posted 14 months ago by Gizgazzuz Guziz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Rayine's basic argument.  In the abstract, all skills and objects in Glitch are oriented towards being able to fulfill resource-related quests that unlock fairly minor content.  i.e., you have to collect and build things in order to get achievements and enter some areas.

    Thus, we see a lot of players putting most of their energy into getting objects to fulfill quests and learn skills.  The byproduct of that is that most of the "hardcore" players look to their currant balance and the auction system as a way to "win".

    I too was attracted to Glitch because of the focus on using your imagination.  Aside from having some fun with the wardrobe options (which I almost always hate in games, so Tiny Speck should be commended for their awesome in that regard), there aren't really many tools to help us use our imagination better.  That doesn't mean that some players out there aren't trying, it's just that they are doing it in something of a void.

    There's a couple directions that I feel the devs could take this platform, that could probably help a lot:
    1) Give us some tools to help us actually role play. I'm an old school text-based online RPer (AmberMUSH ftw), and graphical games tend to be pretty lacking with regard to providing a good platform for RP.  The chatlines are a good start, but we don't have the ability to express ourselves with expressing poses (rather than just chatting). We only have three expression animations. There are also so many mysteries in the game it's hard to come up with things to create roleplay around because there's so many unknowns.  Heck, give us a way to create our own quests and assign them to other players.  People are already doing that with private forums - the devs could stand to take a hint to look at some of the grassroots out of the box play and give those people tools.

    2) Let us create interesting/unique/expressive things. I only create most things that I can make with skills once for the xp award. More than once if it's a useful item or if I need it for a quest/street project. Minecraft may be the pinnacle of this, but Glitch doesn't have to be that extreme. I've seen examples of people being expressive in-game: series of funny notes, someone who died in the same street multiple times in a row so that the street was full of their gavestones, etc. But there's not any tools to really change the world in a meaningful way.

    3) As several other people in this thread have suggested: more quests that are outside the basic "get skill, get quest related to skill, get badge related to skill" chain. I loved the smuggling quest, and when it came up it was like a breath of fresh air, breaking through the normal routine of the game. Learning about rooks was fascinating. The ghost quest was also pretty interesting (at least it helped me explore a lot). More quests that let me learn more about Ur would be fantastic.
    Posted 14 months ago by mirth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One more suggestion from my RP days:

    There's two major problems with fostering online role playing: giving people something to play about, and giving them someplace to play.  On AmberMUSH, players could make literally anything and any place they wanted.  There were over a thousand rooms in the game, and you could visit a faerie land, Hades, Wonderland, modern day New York City, a Sandman-style Dreamland, and oodles of other locations.  But the fact of the matter was, the vast majority of the play happened in only a couple of public rooms.

    The most popular of these was The World's End Bar, which mysteriously connected to many places in the game, and was a place where strangers could bump into each other, sit down and have a chat.  Most importantly, older players hung out there, and it was a great place for newbies to meet older players in a casual social context.

    I see dozens of people every play session in Glitch but I end up talking to maybe one or two of them.  There's no place to go hang out and meet people.  I used to be a little more outgoing, but I've now given up because it seems like the vast majority of players in the game are too busy rushing from one place to another so that they can do quests and earn badges with as few clicks as possible.  I don't know if these people would hang out and chat socially if they could, but there isn't any public hangout space for them to do it in if they wanted to.

    I would love to see one of the Party Rooms converted into a public space that's intended mainly for being social.  Slap it in Groodle Meadow, or even connect it to a few different parts of Ur (with a rule that the door takes you back to wherever you entered from).  Give people a place to be social, and at least some of them will be.
    Posted 14 months ago by mirth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Folks, Glitch only just came out. It's amazing just how much content there is. And don't forget the entire game is player-driven. Wait a few months and see.
    Posted 14 months ago by Avnas Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would like to see some more roleplay though!
    Posted 14 months ago by Avnas Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I know that I am just trying to stay on top of things and get my skill level up for whatever is to come.  I see people in this discussion repeatedly saying we should looking forward.  I don't think that Tiny Speck has come this far without having a lot more ideas and a lot more development in mind.

    The whole 'front end' of how this game is set up screens potential players, and culls out a lot of people.  I definitely am relieved that some of the usual MMO types come and look and leave.  There are 'filters' in place (i.e. having to wait, etc. to get property and use the subways) to make this a world with a different and unique player base.  Let's see what happens as things develop.
    Posted 14 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Mirth.   I think every region needs a bar, perhaps near the subway if there is one.   
    Posted 14 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with the OP.

    This game needs more quests and/or more platformer aspects. I loved the map where I had to jump over the blocks to reach the end.
    Posted 14 months ago by Bashere Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is so much to do, I was a beta player and still find new things to accomplish! TS is always up to something, can't wait to see whats next!
    Posted 14 months ago by Minnie Cooper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am a little stumped at the lack of imagination that a few players have.  But, this just may not be the game for you.  If you think you have done "everything", you have not.  If you want it all spoon fed to you so that you don't need to think you are in the wrong place.  If you think the game is finished, polished and complete, think again. 

    For an MMO to last for any length of time new content and/or new goals/quests must continue.  I know that the Devs have many plans.  They are NOT going to dump everything on us at once.  If you can't wait and have no imagination or imaginative Friends and you don't belong to creative Groups then do something else and come back next month or leave if you like.  Glitch and most any MMO is only made of what you put into it.  You may think it is put there for you but if you just sit around and wait for new content then you are missing the best part of Glitch or of any game, your own creativity.  Make Things Happen!
    Posted 14 months ago by Brib Annie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The post above is the one that finally convinced me this game isn't for me! :)
    Posted 14 months ago by victoriah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Parrow Gnolle: I suspect that the "front end" serves not only to cull but to distract.  The more nontalking grinders in the game, the less likely it is for other players are to try to engage with anyone because their success rate with 

    @Brib Annie: How and where do we make things happen?  Aside from random interactions with strangers (some of which have been quite enjoyable), I haven't seen much going on in public that's terribly interesting.  Everyone getting together in Somewhat Sump to trade candy was aimed mainly at badge-seeking.  Street projects are also highly achievement oriented (and nonexistent lately, as far as I can tell).  I've had fun with my friends at house parties and in party rooms, but that's all private, and only happened because I knew them from outside the game.
    Posted 14 months ago by mirth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Splendora: "The various proposals I see in this forum for changes to AH and the game's economics worry me a bit. I find the AH totally impersonal, and direct player-to-player trading also is not particularly social unless the players make it so. I don't see that forcing economic interdependence will make the game more social; it will, however, close off certain styles of play that some may enjoy. Also, a player-driven economy could lead to a form of non-optional PvP play that is non-violent, but still PvP. I like that the game provides the opportunity to explore collaboration and in-game social interaction that is driven by something other than economic needs and desires."

    I wholeheartedly agree with you Splendora!
    Posted 14 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The original poster made a lot of good points, but I have to say as a long-time-tester-turned-player that I absolutely agree with Cefeida's comments.
    Posted 14 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "aimed mainly at badge-seeking"

    That may be an accurate statement, but it doesn't fully explain why some of us who already have a badge join in social events to help others who want the badge.  If it was "badge-seeking" behavior, then there wouldn't be any reason for the rest of us to show up.  Only newbies would ever help on a peter-out-peat quest, only newbies would ever dig up a dirt pile with someone, no one would ever announce in global the location of an egg plant for the Last Egg quest.  

    There is more going on than grinding for a badge. There is an altruism and genuine joy in others' achievements.   A good example of this is the excitement many of us felt and the active work and celebration that many of us enjoyed when clare reached level 100.  My activity for that social event had zero to do with my getting any in-game benefit and everything to do with a social event that was enjoyed by a whole lot of us. And it all hinged on us helping someone else get a badge. 
    Posted 14 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I am a little stumped at the lack of imagination that a few players have.  But, this just may not be the game for you.  If you think you have done "everything", you have not.  If you want it all spoon fed to you so that you don't need to think you are in the wrong place." 

    that's awfully condescending. of course people are going to ask to be spoon fed if the game doesn't leave any spoons laying around for people to feed themselves with.

    i've invented a ton of "creative" activities to do in glitch over the years, and Cefeida is correct - due to the lack of responsiveness in the world itself, these activities amount to little more to "pencil balancing" and possess only short term interest.

    to continue that metaphor, the reason we're doing pencil balancing type activities is because the pencil we've been given has no lead.

    unfortunately Glitch sucks at being a game and it also sucks at being a sandbox. as a pretty chat room, glitch is fine, but that's not really much of a 'world'.

    sandboxes are fun places to play, but you know what makes them even more fun? sand. little shovels and buckets help too, if you want to build stuff in the sand. we don't have the equivalent materials or tools in glitch and so we're reduced to hacking stuff out of whatever marginal capacity for expression that the game provides .. and most often the game isn't really providing anything so much as we are exploiting bugs.

    "You may think it is put there for you but if you just sit around and wait for new content then you are missing the best part of Glitch or of any game, your own creativity.  Make Things Happen!"

    but *why* make things happen in glitch, specifically? as others have pointed out, people can make things happen *anywhere* .. why is glitch so special?

    the answer is that it isn't, and that the people you are chiding for having "no imagination" probably have plenty of imagination .. it's just that glitch neither presents itself as a venue for imagination nor provides particularly interesting tools with which to express one's imagination.

    now, the plan going forward is to add those kinds of tools. that's really awesome!

    i'm very, very excited about customizable houses and group halls. i think they will be a big step forward. the reason why the game is getting them is because the game *needs* them and the players need them. that's why they are the first major post launch upgrades!

    Glitch needs these tools, and to come in here and chide people for not trying hard enough is absolute baloney. i think if you were to ask one of the developers about why people aren't finding the game particularly engaging and creative i doubt they would say "the players need to make things happen, slackers." more likely they'd agree with the assessment and create tools to address the problem, which is exactly what they are doing by way of house customization and group halls.
    Posted 14 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have to agree with you Raiyne.

    The one thing that keeps me interested is these sort of well though out critiques from players and then seeing what the devs say. It's pretty neat how they are pretty open about the design process and include the players in that process more than I've seen in another other game.

    If they can crack how to really get users creating stuff in the world in a balanced and scaffolded way, it will be amazing and awesome and revolutionary.
    Posted 14 months ago by Geeki Yogini Subscriber! | Permalink
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