Topic

Stop the griefing in the Comunity Herb Gardens

Glitch Change Log

"So migrant gardeners can have time to admire their work, public plots'll be locked to the seed planter for 60 seconds after harvestin time."
13 days ago.

Thanks Tiny Speck, thank you indeed, this thread can now rest in peace.

****************************************************************************************************************** 


TOO LONG, DIDN´T READ:
 THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ABUSE, NOT PICKED HERBS. There are Glitchens using unfair tactics to grief the users of the Herb Gardens BEYOND the normal "free for everyone", like using gameshow wheels to block your view of your crops and camping with 2 or 3 thieve friends to block your vision or splanking you and then proceeding to group steal your crops. They are actively mugging people in the herb gardens, not just picking stuff for free. This needs to be solved

Regardless of the rules of the gardens, or rules of the game...what we do notice in the end is that the area does promote griefing.  People see people planting, and naturally, they know that if they get at the harvest before the other person does, it causes grief.  Minor grief, yes, but distress is distress.  Sure, no one is entitled to what they plant per se, and anyone can harvest whatever they want, but that does not prevent the core issue, it is causing strife altogether.

So instead of arguing about who is right, whether it be the planters or the griefers, perhaps it would make more sense for a solution that would benefit everyone to come about.  I.E., brainstorming.  Arguing back and forth is not doing anything for anyone.  So let's all try solve the problem, and perhaps TS will listen and implement what we come up with, if it is good enough and lets everyone be happy!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * 
REST OF THE OPENING POST EDITED: I have decided to remove from the front page my original Opening Post because the actual debate and conversation doesn´t fit anymore into it, and I feel that pressing the issue to move forward is more important than chew on something that isn´t relevant anymore, and is better than opening a new thread.

It was edited not to misguide anyone or trying to hide something, is just a tool to keep the debate at hand on track.

If you are still interested in reading it (is long, boring, filled angst and frustration, and irrelevant to the actual conversation) you can find it here: 

docs.google.com/document/d/...

Posted 12 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • They do not use the tools TS provides which would allow them to grow and harvest herbs in complete safety.

    Instead they head straight into conflict with ugly people, over and over again.  I don't care about their gameplay choices.  But they make choices that make them unhappy, and then ask that the game be redesigned because they don't like the outcome of their choices. 

    They want to limit other peoples gameplay choices, even though those people are playing within the rules. These folks don't have to play with the jerks unless they choose to.  They choose to play with the jerks.  And then they want the jerks restricted because they don't like the way the jerks play.  

    Yet, when you point out that the majority of players have used the tools provided to avoid playing with the jerks, they brush aside the options.  They want the jerks restricted, their game play choices removed, and everyone to play according the theory of nice that's being proposed by the complainers.  

    As everyone keeps pointing out, jerks inhabit the internet.  Jerks have inhabited this game since alpha.  More jerks are on the way.  Trying to get TS to stop jerks from being jerks doesn't seem like a sound business plan.  TS kicks griefers out of the game.  But they don't kick out jerks.  

    And so far, they don't seem to be inclined to protect us from jerks if we choose to play in a way that attracts the jerks. If you truly believe that  "charity will never benefit anyone, given the reality of greed", then it makes sense not to create a garden that encourages charity.  If however, you believe differently, then perhaps you'd create a game where charity was not only encouraged, but was given a spot where only charity would protect you against the ugly people.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmm Windborn I think that this: "perhaps you'd create a game where charity was not only encouraged, but was given a spot where only charity would protect you against the ugly people" is very interesting!  Given some of the earlier musings in the Meta group and this thread.
    Maybe that is the point of the herb gardens?  To see what happens where there is no way to punish jerks, except by being more generous to them?

    I also think that the comparison to the community machine rooms is also very apt, although the lack of significant waiting time between "releasing" the materials and "gathering" the product makes that product feel even more like it ought to be yours.  I'm pretty sure that the response to someone taking blocks you have created before you can would also be similar to the response in the herb gardens. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Scarlett Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am acquiring blockmaking and fuelmaking machines for my home because one day, probably in the near future when housing is custom built, blocks and fuel cells are going to be at a premium.

    And then you'll see snatch-and-grab in the Machine Rooms just like what's going on in the Community Gardens.

    A social problem of jerky behavior requires a social solution. Throwing your hands up and saying, "Haters/Jerks gonna hate/be jerky," isn't much of a solution.

    What would Gandhi do?

     
    Posted 12 months ago by Fluxan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I believe in this given situation, charity benefits the greedy, and if that truly is a good thing, I guess, um, carry on planting for them?

    But if you do not, then I am going to say the community gardens will never create community, nor will they have any good purpose as is.  Free herbs = free money, and that is always going to be a draw for people.

    I am also not saying there is any particular way of getting rid of jerks either, merely that there are always solutions to play down their options when things get out of hand.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the comparison to the machine rooms is quite apt because in fact the same system of "provide for all and take what you need" works well there.   In the case of the machine rooms its "fuel for all and take what you need".   When I use those rooms to make a fuel cell some person before me has fueled the machines and left enough for me to use.  If I happen to use up all of the fuel or there is very little left, I refuel the machine before I leave.   

    As for the making of blocks and fuel cells there is no comparison to the community gardens.  It takes a few seconds to make a block or fuel cell so there is no reason to leave and come back as in the case of the gardens in which the flowers or crops take hours to grow.  It is convenient to simply make your blocks and cells and then collect them a moment later.  It is NOT convenient to camp over herb plots while jealously guarding the spot.  The gardens would work well if people treated them in the same way as the machine rooms where people fuel the machines for everyone and use as much as they need to make their blocks.
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Treesa I'm quite confident that a sneaky and adept player could snatch the completed block out of the machine before a slower-fingered player could react. I assure you that the victim in that case would be as outraged as any community herb gardener.

    All the same arguments could be deployed by each side. (Public machines are a limited resources, you can't 'monopolize' one! Buy your own darn machine if you don't want your blocks snatched! You don't own your resources when you put them in a public machine! vs. I put the materials in so the product should be mine!)

    I've seen people use the blockmaking machines who don't understand right away that they can make more than one block with a fuel cell! Imagine how grateful they are when I point out that they can keep using the machine to make more blocks! Now imagine how they'll feel when as the familiar game mechanics cause them to automatically step-to-the-side while the machine rumbles and works, another Glitch positions strategically to be first to collect from the machine when it stops. Oh, too bad! You didn't immediately step right up to the fuel maker while it was working! Say bye-bye to your resources.

    The parallel is structurally exact, even if the specific constants are different. If the two scenarios seem meaningfully unlike to you, it would be interesting to explore why. What if the Machine Rooms had signs that said, "All May Use, Any May Take." Would that change your view or feelings?

    Do we really want community resources to be about who can be least patient, least moderate, least considerate? Can we not develop a community ethos that respects the efforts and resources the people invest in an undertaking, while also honoring and encourage generosity (not some kind of obligatory martyrdom to the ruthless).
    Posted 12 months ago by Fluxan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • it takes a moment to make a block.    so its natural to wait. no jealous guarding of the machine is required.    And people simply fuel the machine for everyone and use as much as they need,leaving fuel for the next person.    It would make no sense to go to the room to collect a block and make a new one for the next person.  That system makes perfect sense in the gardens because of the long hours   it takes for the herbs or crops to grow.    And anyway,  the system of fueling the machine for everyone and using as much as you need has been working just fine.   The same system of planting for everyone and using as much as you need should work in the community gardens as well if it weren't for people insisting on wasting hours jealously guarding a plot
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that when blocks become as desirable a commodity as herbs have (temporarily?) become, you will see hostile and selfish behavior in the Machine Rooms as well.

    I make cells and blocks by the dozen when I visit the MR. I am sure that others might well consider that a form of "camping."

    I use up any existing fuel in all the machines before refueling, and I try to bring enough materials to use all the fuel I add. Not very community-minded, you say? Perhaps I deserve to have the blocks I create in this fashion snatched from under my nose.

    Right now, there's no problem, because unless there's a spasm of street projects blocks simply aren't in demand. And even with street projects, plenty of Glitches have some stockpiled and ready to go.

    But if custom-built houses require them?? Katy bar the door, baby! It'll be scorched earth warfare in those shared machine rooms. You will see replicated every nuance and variant of behavior already evident in the Community Gardens, at probably an even higher pitch of rage and hysteria.
    Posted 12 months ago by Fluxan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • People will just buy machine blocks if they need them.   But you raise another interesting point:  the people harvesting what the need from the community gardens are being labeled as "griefers" by some of the people here. If they really were griefers we would see them joyeously snatching blocks from blockmakers in the community machine rooms but...we don't!  It must be that they aren't griefers griefing the herb campers for the fun of it, rather they are just people harvesting what they need and possibly planting later (or not, but it doesn't matter because others plant without harvesting).

    Fluxan:  just because you are the sort of person to use up all the fuel and leave none behind doesn't mean that everyone is.  Whenever I've been to the community machine rooms in the past there has always been a machine with enough fuel and after I've used it I have generally refueled.    Why don't you just refuel them before you leave?   what's the big deal?  currents are easy to come by in the game.   

    Since I've not seen the machines all empty of fuel before (I don't use them that much but I use them once in awhile) it must be that the system is working and only a few people will use up all the fuel and not refuel the machine before leaving.    Possibly they bring the same values to the community gardens:  plant for themselves and take as much as possible.   

     
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Treesa, the only people being labelled griefers here are the ones who mock those that they take herbs from.  They know it will bother the person and so they do it intentionally.  Any other people who waltz in and take some herbs, then waltz out, they are just people using the gardens, not griefers.
    Posted 12 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Muggings in glitch!? This makes me laugh and feel slightly disturbed. I've never witnessed or fallen victim to these tactics but they are rather disturbing and I'll do my best to prevent it if I ever do.
    Posted 12 months ago by La Mariposa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Edited and flipped around for clarity.

    Those that are griefing, are doing it because they get enjoyment out of doing so. They find normal games boring, but being a bully, online, where no one can hurt them? That is priceless. And by complaining, by hating them, by setting yourselves up to be upset by them, and worse, by paying any attention to them, you are making it easy for them to continue. They feel 12 stories tall, and invincible the more they are reviled, just like the imagine their own personal bullies must have felt, or are feeling every day. It is sad, and unfortunate, especially with them perpetuating a cycle of abuse. But in terms of getting reported, suspended and banned is like the ultimate medal of honor to some. It proves 'I was too bad-ass for that game'.

    And expect more griefing with each update, with each skill, and with each time new people are brought in. Most new people are unfortunately coming in from sites that feature both articles games and 'geek culture', and on  memes and "hilarious" trolling antics because that is considered 'geek culture' now too apparently. *

    If there is no way to control the situation with moderator support (I don't blame them, it is a slippery slope from fostering creativity and open world activities to becoming a stifling no nonsense fun oppressing regime) then yes, sometimes sacrificing a limb to get rid of an infection that can not be treated any other way is beneficial. I hate to say it. But at the same time, what is being done is very easily preventable and avoidable. More on that in a moment.

    Those that think the community gardens are really just private plots with a great view and people to talk to, I am pretty certain they are wrong. There is 6 pages of posts saying so. The gardens only became really active and popular when potion making came around. Most people have no intentions of moving from their nice house in the sun to a bog house. But they feel they deserve the right to have the plots as well. This situation perfectly fits an old adage about eating cake.

    But I would like to point out, that the herb gardens only really became more active after the new skills. Before, people would only go there if they happened to come across some seeds, or wanted to collect the herbs in preparation for the future. I've been through the herb gardens before the skills came out. Most were ghost towns.

    Off topic:
    I am waiting it out.

    I see no rush on getting the herb achievements, and I see no point in the use of potions. Yes, I know what many of them do. And I know many of them are coveted because you can try and trick NPC's and get rare items, and make a lot of cash, especially through the AH.

    Those items aren't going to be going away. And even if they do, so what?

    I do know there is a great rush on people trying to gather up the herbs to sell them on the AH. I know that a lot of new players and old have been griefing each other because of the new updates and everyone's desire to be the first, be the best, become a glitch-e-mon master.

    When/if a housing update happens, and all develop their own herb gardens, this madness will end. Prices of herbs will plummet to levels similar to hooch, meats and cheeses. And the world will hopefully be a better place because of it.

    Similarly, the dolls, rube items, and such, will become so common place that they too, will become worthless.

    While a lot of bog houses are now privately owned and getting a place there is difficult, you too can support the great un-griefing by getting in touch with people that own bog houses and starting your own invite-only herb garden societies. By only giving out keys to people you feel you can trust - and by most of all, avoiding the AH and the potion making skills till the situation is worked out.

    But, that is just my 2 currants.

    *Just want to clarify that in order for a game to grow, new people need to come into the community. And the best way to reach people that would be willing to play a browser based game is on gaming websites. I am not saying that any part of having gamers from off-site coming in would be bad, I came from just such a site. I don't want to give a close-minded feeling to my statements or feel that there should be some sort of 'elite and riffraff' dichotomy.
    Posted 12 months ago by Wyrd One Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Pretty much where I stand myself Wyrd. I have the learning done on some of the herbs and potion making but the quests sit in my quest log unfinished. Why? I own a 50k house and I love it. I know it is not going to be permanent but I love it just the same. I have no desire to want a cramped and gloomy (and yes in my tastes they are cramped and gloomy) bog home. So the choices I have are:

    a. Buy from auction. No thanks. Not at the prices that herbs are going for nowadays. I don't believe in lining another players pockets over what I feel is unfair pricing.
    b. Share your home with a bog dweller. Again no thanks. I value what I have worked hard for and uncomfortable with taking the risk of losing what I have worked for. I tend to have alot of stuff in my house that could disappear too easily. I don't know anyone here enough to feel I can trust that things would not get stolen.
    c. Rent the use of a bog home. Again no thanks.
    d. Use the Community Gardens. Definitely no way. Not with what is going on in those gardens lately.

    So here I am. I am at the "wait and see" game. As much as I would like to complete those quests and as much as I would like to make certain potions I will wait it out to see what happens in the future.
    Posted 12 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When/if a housing update happens, and all develop their own herb gardens, this madness will end.

     Absolutely nothing has been said by TS that indicates this will happen.  I don't think people should be expecting every house to have an herb garden after the housing update. 

    If you expect this and it doesn't happen, you are going to be outraged by the new housing.  All because you yourself set up unreasonable expectations.  

    We need solutions for dealing with jerks that don't make assumptions about what TS will do in the future.  The jerks are here now and 'waiting until TS solves this" is not a particularly sound strategy.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lolthisthreadisstillgoing
    Posted 12 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "This is one of the reasons I think you are so reluctant to understand my point. This game is filled with ppl of all ages, and as time goes by you are going to find more and more 14 / 17 year old players."

    I'm sure I will be flogged for saying this, but I want to point out that TS and Stoot have consistently said that this is a game for adults, and in fact parental permission is required for 14 to 17 year olds to play. So, while I acknowledge that the younger players will be present, I doubt that any decisions about game mechanics will be based on their being present in the game. I don't expect "hordes of 15/16 year olds" because TS has stated that this game is not for that demographic. It is, and as far as we have been told, will remain a game for adults.
    Posted 12 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I have gone from interested to "I get all sides now, but Im just entertained at the ridiculous bickering"  to.. "omg.. seriously shut up or I'm gonna steal ALL herbs AND  kill EVERY tree out there" (not really) and back.."

    Yup. I've also gone from "Yay, Glitch is the best game ever! I hate combat-based MMOs!" to "Ugh, so much whining on the forums, I think I'd rather play WoW."
    Posted 12 months ago by Rev. Desdemona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While, that's pretty interesting. Cheers to them for being creative. If you don't like it get your on herb garden or share with a friend.

    I don't personally agree with taking other crops but I realize that it may happen if I use a commune garden, and don't have an issue with others doing it, especially if the do it in such a cool way!
    Posted 12 months ago by QuinnR Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm really not sure why everyone thinks that if they whine enough, TS will change their minds, considering TS put up the signs because people were whining.

    For those of you not familiar with WoW, there's a delightful little concept called "corpse camping" which is pretty much exactly what it sounds like: a higher level player obliterates you, waits for you to resurrect, kills you again, and just continues in this fashion until one of you decides to sign off. As you can imagine, lots of people don't like this. Myself included really, I'm not much for PvP. But no one's still crying about it because the game staff have made it really clear that they don't consider it griefing. Seems to me that TS has made the same pretty clear around these parts. You can whine and cry until the cows come home, or you can just accept the terms of the game you're playing.
    Posted 12 months ago by Rev. Desdemona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just a quite note:

    twitter.com/#!/glitchlog/st...

    So migrant gardeners can have time to admire their work, public plots'll be locked to the seed planter for 60 seconds after harvestin time.

    Check it.  All those who where pretending that "all may harvest" justified the grief.  Your wrong.  Please accept this gracefully.
    Posted 11 months ago by ICountFrom0 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My interpretation is not that "All can harvest" was wrong, but rather that the carping and whining has succeeded in pressuring the devs to change the rules.  Good work, whiners. You have successfully griefed the devs.

    ---------------------
    Edit- Not interested in bumping this whiners' thread by posting more at the bottom.  What gall some people have in assuming that anybody who observes the spectacle of the hue and cry of whiners is 'a big part of the problem.'  No.  We're just observers.  There were a handful of malcontents who 'stole' your herbs.  And there were 'the rest of us' who simply observed said malcontents and their crybaby victims.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

    Sometimes I wish there was a 'post count' put by the name of people who post on these forums.   Because that would make it easier to discount the opinions of high-post-count individuals.  Just cuz you camp out in the forums and blab a lot, doesn't make anything you say more credible.  Go.  Play.  The. Game.
    Posted 11 months ago by Kalstept Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Many uninvolved people, in this thread and others, asked TS to help herb-planters find some defense against a few players who specialized in grabbing-and-griefing. TS responded with a small and clever code change; most people are pleased with the change; and a few are now complaining across many threads that the change was wrong. I guess if complaints you don't agree with are "carping and whining" then complaining about the new change is carping and whining.
    Posted 11 months ago by Dotcom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm glad they put this time limit on the herbs. Before now I didn't want to go there because it sounded like a lawless land of herb farmers pretending the plots belong to them and them alone. Now I can teleport in, take what has bloomed, plant herbs to replace the ones I took and teleport out, and no one complains because the "rightfull owner" had their 60 seconds to pick and now that's expired.
    Posted 11 months ago by Octo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love the change! I was afraid to go to the community gardens and try to plant some herbs for a much needed quest but with all those that came to snatch and then grief causing problems, I didn't need the stress. Thank you TS for listening!

    For those out there that say we whined and cried until there was a change, you were probably the large part of the problem.
    Posted 11 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To quote an earlier user:   I'm really not sure why everyone thinks that if they whine enough, TS will change their minds, considering TS put up the signs because people were whining.

    This is kind of amusing to me
    Posted 11 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Kirnan.
    Glitch logic is to never be understood.
    Posted 11 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's for sure...especially Glitchen logic.
    Posted 11 months ago by Kirnan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Glitch Change Log

    "So migrant gardeners can have time to admire their work, public plots'll be locked to the seed planter for 60 seconds after harvestin time.
    13 days ago.

    Thanks Tiny Speck, thank you indeed, this thread can now rest in peace.
    Posted 11 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ... which is why you bumped it after 11 days of peace...
    ;)
    Posted 11 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @shhexy corin: Dude! now I got to reply to you, how is this poor thread going to rest in peace?

    ... really I was disconnected from the game since December, so I wasn´t aware of the change until I checked the changelog 9 days ago. Now, if you excuse me.

    *ahem*

    Now this thread can finally rest in peace.

    *slowly walks away*
    Posted 10 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • HEY GUYS WHAT'S GOING ON IN HERE?
    Posted 10 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just keepin' the dream alive.
    Posted 10 months ago by Kalstept Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I know what you are doing, but I´m not going to bump this thread...

    ... wait... 
    Posted 10 months ago by Mikah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I heard their was a rape in a community herb garden back in the day.......
    Posted 10 months ago by psibertus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It isn't one of the crops the devs have coded for us to plant.  That crop isn't a herb crop in the first place.  If it were in the game, it would be a vegetable garden crop.  But we use uppity expensive oils in our recipies here, not canola oil.  These are yuppie kitchens.
    Posted 10 months ago by Kalstept Subscriber! | Permalink
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