Topic

Just like the Gardens, the auctions are community property also

There has been a lot of anst in the forums lately over the concept of "sniping", and there seems to be a misconception floating around that under-valued auctions should only be bought by certain people, or for certain purposes. But just like the community gardens, the auctions are available to everyone. When you post something up for auction, you get to choose the price, and that's it -- you don't get to choose who buys it, or what they do with it.

I've got some things to say about setting the best price, but I'll save that for another thread!

Posted 12 months ago by Sturminator 5 Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • Well said.  Anyone who doesn't like auction snipers has nobody but themselves to blame if they keep putting up under-valued auctions.
    Posted 12 months ago by Warrender Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I concur. It seems an odd quibble to me for a seller to get upset that an auction "sold in just a few seconds- WTH?!", when (a) it sold for what it was posted for and (b) makes no difference one way or another to them. If somebody wants to and can resell what you've posted for sale, that's not the buyer's fault or the sniper's fault- that's the seller's for not paying attention to their prices.
    I've also seen people complain that "my friend was gonna buy it, but somebody else got in there first because of those awful snipers", but that's why we have trade dialogs- if you want somebody in particular to buy it, walk your happy ass over to where they are and sell to them directly. If you're relying on auction to do what in-game trading does, you're playing roulette where the specific buyer is concerned even without the sniper, and that's not the fault of the sniper or buyer either- it's a result of poor planning.
    Posted 12 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You could even send stuff by frogmail...
    Posted 12 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What I don't get is why things are under priced in the auction anyway. For me it's simple, if the tool vendor pays more than the current auction price I sell to the tool vendor. It would be nice if the stuff I made went to someone who could use it but I'm not going to loose money to do it.
    Posted 12 months ago by Octo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have NO problem with sniping per se. As stated there are plenty plenty ways around over priced items. And if the demand is there (in bulk or not), then that is what the price should be.
     There is a slight issue of scale of the game where there is possible a heightened level of prices for certain things... and those prices can be maintained high by mass buying and not actual populous demand. But that is also the issue of the large large amount of cash it is relatively easily to get. And that's fine.

    I don't think this should be adjusted by players "playing fair." They already are play fair.

    What I would LOVE is store fronts... basically player owned and stocked Street Spirits. So vending machines. That way, if a player wanted to sell say Tree Poison at rock bottom price, they would have a location for players to go to day in and day out (as long as it is stocked). Sure. Reseller could go visit and buy it out, but that is just a bit more effort than leaving a browser open.

    And, again, as more players join, competition changes the affects of these greatly. (Although we would've still seen the same herb price spike as we saw. And that is right. EVERYONE suddenly wanted herbs. Prices SHOULD spike.)

    But
    Posted 12 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Q.Q
    Posted 12 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Octo
    What I don't get is why things are under priced in the auction anyway. For me it's simple, if the tool vendor pays more than the current auction price I sell to the tool vendor. It would be nice if the stuff I made went to someone who could use it but I'm not going to loose money to do it.

    Some people do not know about tool vendor and some can't be bothered to come over to him - you don't really need to move anywhere to put stuff on auction ,and this matters particularly with small numbers of items.
    (also, some people do not notice that there is an auction fee)
    Posted 12 months ago by Ingvar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sniping intentionally undervalued items is (imho) fair game.

    Sniping accidentally undervalued items; however, is another matter.  I think the sellers should have a few minutes' grace before the auction is 100% final.

    And I'm not saying so because I have accidentally auctioned items at a too low price.  I have returned items which I thought were accidentally priced too low.

    Plus, I want the vendors to have buyback tabs.  I want those BB-5's I accidentally vendored back.  (sighs)
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ingvar wrote: Some people do not know about tool vendor and some can't be bothered to come over to him - you don't really need to move anywhere to put stuff on auction ,and this matters particularly with small numbers of items. (also, some people do not notice that there is an auction fee)

    I'm going to take a wild guess and say that those people also don't know/don't care about the auction sniping issue.

    We're not saying don't post under-valued items.  Just don't keep doing it and complain about sniping.
    Posted 12 months ago by Warrender Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Prior to maxing out the teleport tree, I found it a pain to go to a tool vendor and sold almost everything via auction.  

    Although it's buying and not selling, thinking of it like running to the convenience store at the corner to buy milk.  It's going to be more expensive, but it's going to take less time and gas to get there and get out.  

    Same deal with auctions: I might have been losing currants here and there, but it wasn't really that much, and the loss was worth it to skip travel time and energy use.  
    Posted 12 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You don't have to be in-game to use the auction house.  Those who are, say, at work and using a mobile device to access the Glitch website may decide to sell via AH at lower prices than they could get from a vendor in-game.
    Posted 12 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm going to take a wild guess and say that those people also don't know/don't care about the auction sniping issue.

    i'm fully informed. i sell in whatever fashion best meets my needs at the moment. this usually means i don't schlepp over to the tool vendor. not worth my time.

    if someone snipes my goods, more power to 'em. i get rich, they get rich, everybody's happy.

    ...except some people who keep opening new threads to declare that people selling underpriced/to snipers/anywhere but the toolie are stupid/unfair/uninformed.

    i have a trombone and i know how to use it.
    Posted 12 months ago by flask Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe I am wrong in this assumption but I think its the use of bots to do the sniping that is bothering most people. I think the majority don't care when it's done manually.
    Posted 12 months ago by Melting Sky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There's another thing too: usually when I'm selling something, I'm doing it to clear out my inventory. I don't want it to sit in the Auction House for the time limit, then have it returned. So I've sometimes undercut the lowest price just to get rid of it. Currants are pretty meaningless after a certain point anyway. If a newer player gets it, great. If a sniper, well fine too. Everybody is getting what they want.
    Posted 12 months ago by Flowerry Pott Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What is sniping?
    Posted 12 months ago by bayBi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "What is sniping?"

    Sniping is when someone buys under valued items at the auction and immediately sells them to the tool vendor for profit. I've heard there are people who run scripts that do this automatically, but I'm not sure that's true.
    Posted 12 months ago by Octo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well here's another problem: What exactly IS sniping?

    As far as Glitch is concerned, I'd say it's the high-speed automated purchasing of items at the AH (regardless of intention).
    Posted 12 months ago by Aoi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Octo, it's true.  I made a decent profit sniping hooch when everyone went distilling crazy, then having to sell or give it away.  The bottom dropped out of the market.

    Before sniping at the snipers, I think you've got to remember that this actually helps maintain prices near tool vendor prices for sellers.  If it wasn't for sniping clearing away a ridiculously low price it could sit for a while and influence other sellers to price too low.
    Posted 12 months ago by dbot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • people use scripts to do it automatically. that's what makes it sniping.

    sniping is certainly "fair". time is currants, and the ability to sell quickly - something enabled by snipers - is a great option for a seller to have.

    but whether something in this game is "fair" or not is pretty irrelevant. the only things that matter are whether it is "fun" and whether it is "good for glitch".

    sniping is fun because the sniper gets a sense of power and of playing a larger game, while the seller makes a much faster scale at their desired price than they would without automated snipers.

    problem is, i'm not sure sniping is good for glitch, because it means that auctions are typically on the expensive end for new players and older players who don't snipe. you also get an increased incidence of those players clicking auctions, only to see the auction disappear out from under them. these are the kinds of effects that frustrate and alienate the non-snipers, and I'd wager there are far more people who don't snipe than those who do.

    a solution to this might be putting in a two minute delay between the moment the auction goes up and when the auction is presented to snipers via the API. that way, regular players would have a shot at getting good deals without using scripts, but snipers and sellers would enjoy pretty much the same situation they do now. they just wouldnt enjoy the "market cornering" effects of their speed completely denying non snipers from accessing certain price points.
    Posted 12 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wait, people use scripts for it?  That sounds like cheating.

    Doing it on your own isn't.  It just isn't a great way to make money.  Time wise you would make more harvesting beans then you would waiting around for undervalued milk.
    Posted 12 months ago by Alexgator Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Regardless, the staff is aware of the extension and, while they haven't explicitly approved of it, they have stated that it's not against the ToS, though they may choose to revisit the issue in the future.
    Posted 12 months ago by Aoi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot was on some level in favor of the sniper when it came out, and until TS reverses that I don't see how it's cheating.  The AH is not part of in-world play, the script is available to all, and nobody is harmed by instant sales whether to in-game glitches shopping in another tab, not-in-game glitches watching the AH at work, or a script.   www.glitch.com/forum/genera...
    Posted 12 months ago by oscarette Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmm, the term "sniping" with reference to auctions originally referred to placing a winning bid just before the end of a timed auction (e.g. eBay). Initially, this was done manually, but soon scripts were developed to automate the process.  So "sniping" then began to refer to the use of automated scripts for auction bidding and buying.  I think that's what at least some people here mean when they use the term "sniping" -- the use of bots to purchase items from auction when the price falls below a certain threshold.

    Arbitrage is the classic term for buying at a lower price in one market (i.e. auction house) and selling at a higher price in another market (i. e. tool vendor).

    If people can be counted on to be rational economic actors, then arbitrage promotes efficient markets and that is a good thing.  The glitch in this theory is that you can't always count on people being rational economic actors.
    Posted 12 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So out of the recent posts regarding what sniping in Glitch is, they tend to differ in a few key elements: Price threshold, intention of resale and high-speed... though at least we all agree on the 'automatic' part. (Or, at least without active user control.) =P
    Posted 12 months ago by Aoi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't understand what harm is supposedly being done here.  The seller got what they asked for.  If they posted it at a low price as a form of charity, that is incredibly lazy charity.  The buyers who missed the opportunity can buy at the higher price or acquire the item somewhere else.  They aren't entitled to buy it at a price less than the vendors pay.  This game has no real scarcity, so putting a floor on prices has no real negative consequences.

    If there is anything wrong with this system it's that the vendors are not on equal footing with players.  They have infinite currants to spend and they always pay the same price regardless of how many they've bought.  From reading Stoot's post linked by oscarette, it looks like they're going to fix that eventually.
    Posted 12 months ago by Crag Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is no fully automated script do resell items (aka high-frequency trading in the real-world stock market). There is a script that reformats the auction listings, and lets you do 1-click buys, but it is not fully automated.

    Just using a sucky (IE8) tabbed browser I can purchase large quantites very, very quickly without any extensions, plus I get the benefit of skipping the 2nd click if it's a bad buy (e.g. instead of buying a full stack, it's a short stack, listed at a reasonable price for a full stack)
    Posted 12 months ago by Sturminator 5 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There are scripts which will automatically buy items from auction, and there are scripts that will automatically sell items on the auction from your inventory. However, scripts can not move your purchases to your inventory, or sell to a vendor... in short, there are no auto "buy low, sell high" scripts, and there is allways an active player involved at some stage... so why even complain about it?
    Posted 12 months ago by Syruss Subscriber! | Permalink
  • edit: Whoah, sorry. Forgot I loaded the page like a day ago before replying.
    Posted 12 months ago by LeifOnTheWind Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Pming, I agree- I accidentally listed 5 of something very high in value for the cost of 1. Right away I canceled the auction, but it had already been sniped. 

    To add a little insult, the person that got it then added me as a friend. Hmph. 

    I'm EXTRA careful with auctions now.
    Posted 12 months ago by NutMeg Botwin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I want to go back and re-read Stoot's weigh in, but with all the grousing about sniping, I'll make my noise again:

    Buy Orders.  Much of the problems on the Auction House would be solved by letting players say "I would buy this much X for price Y" and making that public knowledge.  (Yes, I know there are secondary apps - fewer people see those than read the forums than know about Global Chat.)  Then, if you go to sell, say, hooch, you can see what the last sell price was at, and know that if there are buy orders in place, they're for a higher price.

    As it stands, producers live in ignorance of the value of their products, and fear (and generosity) push prices down.

    Buy Orders!  Or bankrupt the Auction House in favor of trade houses.  Something!
    Posted 12 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The problem is, in my opinion, that the prices are set manually. One could theoretically slowly drive the prices up by buying slightly above tool vendor, then selling back in AH for slightly more. I also concur that this messes with generosity. 
    Posted 12 months ago by Lady Cailia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like Stri's concept of delay for API snipers, because I think it solves a bit of what's wrong with sniping, the fact that you're competing with a bot. I've personally considered using a sniping bot in the past just to have a certain level of goods on hand so that if I want to go off and say, pamphlet, or race, or do things that aren't resource gathering so I can spend my time doing what I want to do with the time that I have to play Glitch. (The only reason I haven't enacted it yet is that I'm saving money for some other stuff, don't want to dip in my pool of cash: but I don't see why I shouldn't be funding the needs of others when I want to keep my suplies topped off without hassle.)

    And I think it would be great if you could set a certain percentage of profit that you wanted to sell your items as a default on the AH, but that's another argument entirely.
    Posted 12 months ago by Caesura Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Caesura - In calculating a price based on percentage of profit, what would be the baseline?  That is, if you want a 5% profit, 5% of what?
    Posted 12 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Splendora: Calculated from base price of vendor sellback, basically: as I understand it, price of items might change, but buyback isn't? Unless I missed that.
    Posted 12 months ago by Caesura Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic @Caesura, please add your comments, thoughts, etc. about delaying the sniper to:

    http://www.glitch.com/groups/RHV10V06BH5240F/discuss/1172/

    I already asked ping if the sniper can be delayed for 1-2 minutes.  Hopefully, it is possible.

    I really like the sniper a lot.  I don't use it to profit (immensely).  I just want to be able to bulk buy items quickly at a fair price, of course.  I'd really rather have it delayed-nerfed so that folks would complain less about it.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • > The problem is, in my opinion, that the prices are set manually. One could theoretically slowly drive the prices up by buying slightly above tool vendor, then selling back in AH for slightly more. I also concur that this messes with generosity. <

    I'm not sure how you'd make a profit that way by the time you'd paid the auction commissions.
    Posted 12 months ago by Mocha Maid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • people keep saying that producers are ignorant of the value of their products.

    i assure you, we're not.

    in other threads people complain that herbs are being sold at inflated prices.

    i assure you, they're not.

    there's all this complaining about bots or that prices are too high or too low or SOME things are undervalued or overvalued and the plain truth is that SOME people just want things to be fair wherein "fair" is defined as "maximally profitable to me".

    i sell my goods under the going rate because i want them to sell quick. sometimes the market fluctuates and the going rate i have sold at doesn't move and i have to repost an auction. two lots at the same price. one moves, one doesn't. was i stupid to overprice the one i had to repost, or stupid to have had the one that sold go to a sniper instead of getting the "right" price?

    this happens to me every day. every. honkin'. day. price of beans fluctuates between 890/stack to 1400/stack in normal trading. there is nothing unfair about the snipers. they are available for everyone to use who wants them and anyone running a sniper knows that market fluctuations sometimes give them the raw end of a deal.

    give up now getting people to complain less; if it's not this thing, it will be that thing.

    unfair! we all howl when we lose our perceived advantage. since i harvest/mine/sell/craft EVERYTHING, i can make huge profits no matter what the markets do. and no matter what it is i'm doing, someone will be there to complain that i am selling too low in the same hour that someone else will complain in another thread that i'm selling too high.

    i simply interpret it as THEY'RE not making as much money as they want. the system ain't broke. if you are clever you can use it no matter what it does.

    and no, i have never used a sniper myself. i can't be bothered. but as much as you can use your own sniper to exploit market features, you can figure out how to exploit someone else's sniper to turn a profit if you're paying attention.
    Posted 12 months ago by flask Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's quite easy to detect a sniper and maximize the heck out of your return.

    I've tested a couple products and then set my price to either be just above the sniper point or just below it, depending on whether I wanted to dump inventory (just below) or ensure that a re-seller wasn't making money that I wanted to make (just above). 

    But, as flask says, prices vary a lot.  Your sniper can end up buying things that are way overpriced for the market when it goes down.  Sometimes the market goes back up, but sometimes it's permanently depressed.  Hooch a few weeks ago is a great example.  

    People who were trying to corner the market on hooch found themselves, within a few days, overstocked with hooch that they'd paid a high price for (although quite low for those few days).  And then they had no way of reselling it to even break even.  They lost money. 

    The sniper (and it's really a buy-order script, not a sniper script) just allow you to buy things for the price you are willing to pay for it.  Not everyone who uses it is re-selling the stuff they buy at some inflated price, since actually profiting from it means you need to watch the auction prices quite closely.
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nothing wrong with detecting a sniper and pricing right under his threshold. Like people've said-- a seller prices their stuff at what they want for it and a buyer [sniper] sets their limit at what they're willing to pay. Personally, I'd rather see the system operate by the asking price, but that sort of requires flipping the entire thing around.
    Posted 12 months ago by Aoi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • so
    Posted 12 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This whole conversation is silly. Let's put a few real life examples on it. 

    1. I noticed yesterday that someone has put a bunch of full firefly jars on auction for 400 currants, that usually sell for about 1,000. I set the sniper to buy at that level and took them all - which saved me a lot of annoying manual time of clicking on every auction and confirming that I wanted it. I then used them to make plain crystals, which sell for less than 400 currants.

    2. I used to buy allspice (4 currants) and plain bubbles (4 currants) to make Lemburgers - the other ingredients I could make at home. It saved me the trouble of having to having to collect them myself when I wanted to try playing the game that way.

    So, frequently, I buy things to make a higher value item and then either sell it to a vendor or auction depending on what prices look like and how much quantity the auction house can bear. It is very rare to buy something really cheap and sell it at a higher price, and the reason is partly due to other people using snipers.

    The Glitch Auction Sniper effectively puts a floor on the price, for as many as the buyer is willing to buy. This is good for sellers. 

    I also use Glitch Autosell now. I've set it up so it sells most items below what I would get at the vendor, because I want the items to sell and save me the trip. It also allow me to do things like make racing tickets available at cost, so people can buy tickets without having to go to ticket dispenser. That's an annoying chore without an automated tool.

    In short, useful tools that eliminate a lot of the nonsense from Glitch. Should they be incorporated into the game so everyone can use them? Sure, that's a good thought. But, this idea that I should have to buy or sell every item manually because some people don't know about the existence or cannot manage to use these tools. That's turning Glitch into a Harrison Bergeron dystopia.
    Posted 12 months ago by Meander Thralls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If people are complaining about the sniper BEFORE trying it, I really think they'll change their mind once they have tried it.

    The sniper really helps keep carpal tunnel syndrome at bay.  Even just the thought of purchasing one auction manually makes me feel tired.

    However, again - I only can entirely support auto-buying auctions which were priced as intended by their sellers.  Sniping accidentally priced auctions which sellers didn't even have five seconds to cancel is (for me) similar to herb-stealing at the community gardens.

    The sniper is just a tool.  Whether it is used for good or bad is entirely at the player's discretion.
    Posted 12 months ago by Pming Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The sniper isn't guaranteed to win either; I beat it all the time.
    Posted 12 months ago by Aoi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • another issue with the addon is you can only specify a specific price per item, i.e 4c for 1 allspice. their are many auctions that are priced inbetween 4c and 5c per allspice because they were sold in bulk.

    so their are still plenty of good auctions for everyone to get, just the ridiculously low get taken almost immediately. in some ways it is actually a good thing, stuff doesn't need to be sold ludicrously cheap, when you auction something and it sells instantly, it's a pretty good indication you need to raise the price. Personally I tend to keep raising the price until it stops selling instantly, then I know what price they set their sniper too, and then i drop it back down to that and profit.
    Posted 12 months ago by psibertus Subscriber! | Permalink