Topic

A Concern about Street Project Phases


Like some of you, I have been trying to keep track of what items and skills are needed for street projects. I discovered a pattern: the titles of the phases match a set of items and skills that are always the same, with the exception of a few that have a couple of versions to them. Some sets have multiple titles, but the same six items and six skills all hang together.

I have to admit I was happy with this discovery, because it meant I could prepare whatever was needed for the upcoming phases by just knowing the title. Sure enough, though, I wasn’t the only one who’d discovered this advantage. It wasn’t until this test that I noticed some street projects being completed in less than five minutes. I noticed that some people were nabbing large percentages very quickly, and not just due to donating a lot of one item. Most importantly, I noticed that the newcomers to street projects weren’t able to contribute a single item in edgewise.

I see Glitch as a place where community and cooperation are important values. When it comes to street projects, this gap between veterans and newcomers – in resources, skills, and knowledge – worries me. If the phases are completely predictable, and more people figure them out, my guess is that contributions will be a matter of preparedness and how quick you are to the draw. I realize that not everyone works on street projects to be in the top five, but I think it discouraging to see all of the items completed in a matter of seconds. Where is the opportunity for teamwork? Why would a newcomer even bother participating?

I humbly submit this concern to the Glitch staff and community in the hopes that we can make street projects (more) fun for everyone now and in the future. I can imagine many possible alternatives, such as randomizing items/skills within certain categories, making all skills needed of low level, creating some kind of donation cap, asking for not just items/skills but quest-style actions, etc., but I’d like to hear people’s thoughts. Thank you for reading.

Posted 17 months ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Larky lion, do you know where you heard about that? I haven't seen any evidence of it at projects. If there is scaling, it's too small to be noticeable.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Shepherdmoon, it is just from my personal experimentation.  For example, if I get in 8 permits, I want to say they're around 1 percent each.  Usually enough to easily get me in top 5, which is certainly not true of 8 planks.  But again, I have not kept any notes, so I can't give you any very specific numbers, and I don't know the relative values of most things.

    (If you do some late night (Pacific time) projects, they go slow enough that you can see how much of a percentage bump you get from various items, by checking in between donations, instead of the mad click-fest when 50 people are at a project.)
    Posted 17 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't mean for public streets, larky. I mean for places that will belong to the group or one of the members of the group that builds it. The two ways (current + zeeberk's idea) could possibly coexist.

    Also, I've noticed what larky's talking about too. If I donate items of higher value or the items that the project requires fewer of, I'll get higher in the project rankings than if I donate the same number of items for a item requirement of 2k
    Posted 17 months ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just love doing the streets even if I can only donate a few items..I'm not out for trophys or high numbers.Just being there and helping is fun to me.. I have several skills to go before I can do a lot and I know by the time I learn them we will have started over.. It's very hard to stock up and try to remember what to donate next..I really don't know how some have so much stocked up when you go from doing one street to the next..I know some really like working for the trophy parts and high numbers,but some of us (speaking for myself) just like doing what we can no matter what level we are..With out doing the streets I don't know if I would have taken the time to learn how to catch fireflies or scrape barnacles..So it helps you learn as you go..
    Posted 17 months ago by mudspots Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Shepherdmoon - I will say the project where the person had contributed 20% was the first I had seen with the high percentage. What I did not say is that right after flooding the contributions, they posted a link to a spreadsheet that broke down the projects by phase name then listed the items needed for each of the phases. So now it would be just a matter of loading up on the items to be needed for a project (or all of them if you are ambitous), then head off to the next new street being built. No longer would you have to 'guess' at what items were needed. Just stockpile based on the spreadsheet and take it all. Doesn't really seem fair, but nothing is fair - it's just the way it is.
    I quit contributing at another game I played that had 'community projects' because of the stockpilers getting the top spots all the time. I thought this might be different here, but it's not. I just want a fair chance.

    I also want to mention that several people made a comment about the spreadsheet as well. Maybe I should post the link then everyone can stockpile. Contributions would then come down to who can click the fastest. Maybe a new leaderboard for fastest clicker at a project?
    Posted 17 months ago by Ruby Specklebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • At this point, with all the talk of the spreadsheet, it probably should be posted. Folks that want to take advantage of it can, folks that want to just give here & there can. Because, right now, it's a big open secret that you only know the details of if you're in the club which isn't all that great for building a sense of community or whatever.
    Posted 17 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What do people like about street projects? Some people have mentioned liking the rewards, whether it’s having their names associated with a street, receiving a trophy piece, or getting a TP script. I think, however, that the larger driving force for many players is the sense of belonging to a larger community. I believe that people enjoy being able to contribute to the Glitch world by helping to build a permanent piece of it. The positive aspects about projects mentioned in this thread are along the lines of socializing, being encouraged to learn new skills, the camaraderie of sharing resources and other ways of helping each other out. I feel that these positive aspects reflect the distinctive, friendly, and communal spirit of the game.

    To clarify what I said in the original post, I don’t believe that getting newbies on the leaderboard easily would make projects better. I believe that creating an environment that welcomes all players, including newbies, would make projects better. I think that the people who have spoken up about their negative experiences here, many of whom are higher level players, should not go unnoticed. I think that they are hitting on lots of important issues and offering excellent ideas for improvement, which I hope will be taken seriously before launch.

    I like that street projects are challenging, but I dislike that they encourage competitive behavior at the expense of others. If a player wants to get a trophy piece, it makes sense to not to share any information about where projects are going on or what’s required. After all, why share that information (or resources) with others who are just going to take away from your contribution? And besides, most of the project is finished before you’d even have the chance to tell others about it. In my (perhaps biased) view, the new streets channel was very quiet today, relative to pre-playbook days. I believe that the negative aspects mentioned in this thread will get worse as more people decide to stockpile resources and more people join the game.

    I believe that the current street project system pits trophy-hunting versus the positive aspects of street projects. Rather than incentivizing people to work harder as individual players, I’d like the game to encourage people to play harder together (i.e. working together with a cooperative, friendly spirit). I think that system needs to change to make camaraderie a priority, and the trophy piece a nice bonus. If we can encourage a system in which there are enough rewards for everyone – beyond trophy pieces or TP scripts or energy boosts – then I think that will be more fun all around, and more representative of the spirit of Glitch.

    By the way, for those of you who are wondering where the spreadsheet is, I posted mine in this thread. I’ve also shared it on the Glitch Strategy Wiki
    Posted 17 months ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't been in New Streets chat for a while, but I agree, it's been getting quieter and quieter as projects become less and less about community and getting it done together.

    +1 to all that Melody Pond said about fostering camaraderie. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Agreed, Melody: the New Streets chat has been getting quieter, and it was the worst today. Most of the time I was the only one giving updates on there. It gets rather frustrating--why share information with people that aren't willing to give anything back? I haven't given up yet but if it keeps on like that I may stop posting updates there altogether. That said, the New Streets chat is very good when a certain few people are online that are good about sharing information. When they're not online or doing something other than working on projects, it is just populated by a bunch of people watching in silence for some juicy free tidbits to float by. I'm sure they don't want to share the knowledge they have for the fear someone else will donate stuff they intend to donate themselves, which is very sad, and contrary to the community that we are trying to build.
    Posted 17 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, I missed that post. That's awesome & loads of work - I watched you (and others) putting it together with all the notes at projects. Great job :)

    I agree with you about the tension between collaboration & competition. It's an interesting line to play with, but a tricky one. The current implementation is off a bit (as this thread attests to), but I can see why TS would be intrigued by it and, honestly, I wouldn't want to see it disappear completely. But if I had to choose, I would much rather see the focus on collaboration. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just a note. Right now the developers are trying to establish a game world. The rapid street builds work to that end. I enjoy the street projects even though I usually contribute less than 1% to any given phase directly. This test I mostly put what stuff I could make on the market (at the default prices) and worked on aiding other players, my home, getting levels (needed the cash), etc.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've been playing the game since about mid-April (at the latest).  I LOVE contributing to projects!  I've never gotten more than 6% in any stage, but that's okay.  When the work parts open I try to do the work that requires higher skills (awesome pot & master cheffery) rather than knife & board so newer players have a chance to participate..  I've seen a lot of players ask for ingredients.  Some share the finished product with those who gave them the ingredients (so both get noted as having contributed) some don't (which I think is wrong).  The projects I've been to this past test seemed somewhat more collaborative than earlier ones.  But that's just one person's opinion.
    Posted 17 months ago by Marla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The things I find most annoying about the projects (other than not enough randomization of the ingredients/work needed), is that there aren't enough to spread out the players participating in them.  This past test, when I went to one, there are 40-50 people all clamoring to get ingredients in...usually because there was only one main world street project at time (in the past with fewer players there were often 2-3 going at once on opposite sides of the world - the ones in the nostalgia areas really don't count like regular projects since they are dump and run projects, not places where you are actively hanging around working for periods of time to get them open.). It is one of the few things provided by the game that you can do at the higher levels that is more than just the normal grind (or something that you've made up to do)...so people are bored and are flocking to the projects.  When there is only one, for me, there are just way too many people there, and with the lag of the past test, the lag on that street with all the players was huge for me. Really made it less than fun, so I dumped in a few items to get the teleport script, handed off a few items to a friend who was in the top 5, and then left (I often like to hang around between phases and participate in multiple phases).  It's just not fun to me when there are that many people there...guess I have to look at hitting them in the middle of the night to find enjoyment in them again. 

    My other annoyance at the street projects was when I realized that the top three that get 'credit' for the project are the top three of the final phase of the project, vice the top three contributors across all phases of the project.  When I realized that, for me, it made it harder to want to dump all my stuff into the earlier phases...maybe that makes me a glamour hunter...but it is cool to get your name linked to a street building project...so, if they can't calculate the highest three across all the phases, why don't they just list the top contributor from each of the phases, and then list the number of ALL the contributors across all phases of the project vice just the numbers from the final phase...each player whether they contributed in phase 1 or the final phase had a role in opening that street, and should be 'credited' as being part of the overall team that worked to get that street open.

    I personally like that the street projects aren't for the newbs and lower level players.  It was something that I looked forward to participating in once I learned about them. It is something that gives the higher level players something to do since the quests and skills learning are few and far between. And once I was able to start contributing to projects, I felt like that's when I had matured in the game...it gave me a sense of satisfaction that I could 'play with the big kids'. 
    Posted 16 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ah yes, playing with the big kids...I like it. 

    But ya know, I've never been involved with any street projects, partly because a couple months back there seemed to be a lot of negativity here on the forums regarding too much "bossyness" and infighting - which I avoid. (All I know is what I read, I'm sure it worked itslef out since the projects continue.) 

    Is there a possibility that projects can be organized via. a basic division of labor, so the inexperienced peeps like me who have adequate game experience and new Glitch folks  can work on tasks which will introduce us to how things work?

    Just asking...
    Posted 16 months ago by MeherMan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not to beat a dead horse, but I do want to say this....

    I have always been a team player at the projects. I get excited when I see a new area being built. I rush to my closet and take what I think might be needed at the project then hurry right to it. I put in what I can and when I can’t make anything else, I give items to others who ask for them. And when I don't have the necessary items to contribute I give people food to eat for energy, bestow RK, or meditate to help those who can contribute. There are many out there who do the same thing. This gives me a real sense of a community effort, a sense of "All for One and One for All'. I even get great satisfaction from it. I also think this is the way the projects are meant to be played.
    I am not a person who has to be the on the top of any list. I don’t need the most currants or the best house (although I do live in Alakol only because of the vast amount of room in the house). I still have goals that I haven’t completed because I want to do to them when I want to, not because I got some to do. (Example: I still haven’t done the garlic teddy hugs yet.)
    I just wanted a chance at having something (other than a TP script that disappears once used) that said, ‘Yes, you are part of the Community and here is a little something you can have for being a major contributor.” I would then smile over getting my little trophy then try to help someone else get that same feeling of satisfaction. I wanted to earn that satisfaction. What I didn’t want was to have the instant gratification by ‘buying’ the parts of the trophy.

    I don’t know how this can be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. There have been many creative ideas already posted. Perhaps rotate all the items within the phases instead of a set standard so they can't be tracked for stockpiling purposes. (I did like this idea.)
    Maybe limit the trophies sections to only one per player. Once you earn a section, you get no more.
    Maybe set aside a percentage of donated items for level specific players. Example: 1250 planks needed. 25% of the 1250 be designated lvl 1-10 players, 25% to lvl 11-15 players, 25% to lvl 16-20 players, 25% to lvl 20 and above. These percentages could be adjusted. This is just an example.
    Or, designate steps in the building phase for level specific players. Step 1 is lvl 1-10, Step 2 is lvl 11-17, Step 3 is lvl 18-30, Step 4 is lvl 30 and above.
    Maybe instead of a percentage, how about actual street projects designate for level specific players? I’m just throwing this one out there. Implementation for this one might be difficult since more projects would be needed to satisfy all level of players who might want to contribute.
    Is there an answer? I don’t know. I do know I am not happy with the way it is now and I’m not alone.
    Posted 16 months ago by Ruby Specklebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Meherman - I've never seen the problems you've mentioned. But as one poster has mentioned I've had people just give me things so I have a little contribution credit even when I could not do any labor (not such a problem lately). There are some regulars, like Lilith, Achtung, and Emilio that really help the newer contributors. I'm not omitting any names on purpose. Oh! And Rascalmom and ...gosh so many and all have been kind and helpful.
    Posted 16 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Have any of you guys on this thread ever been involved in a POS shoot in Eve Online? These events occur when one group or corporation has willingly given up control of a play space to another group. Due to the highly evolved (read: cumbersome and old and weird) mechanics of the game, it is easier for the second group to come in and blow everything up than it is for the first group to simply leave quietly.

    But this takes a lot of time, a lot of players, and a lot of bullets and missiles and things.

    The only reward players get for this is a minor change in game dynamics (the space in which they are "allowed" to play changes slightly), plus their names on a list of folks who participated. But numerous players participate at considerable expense. These events can consume hours of a player's life without much really happening, and every shot fired carries a monetary cost as well.

    Players come back over and over to these things just to hang out, talk smack, and say they were there...for, basically, nothing but their names on a list! And not just experienced players. Days-old n00bz to years-old veterans.

    Maybe there's a lesson here! Everybody gets a trophy (like at a kids' taekwondo tournament), or nobody gets a trophy, but either way give credit to everyone for even participating at all. Like a little history book dangling from a cord on the street somewhere, something like that.

    I think it'd be cool. I personally enjoy just being around on a street where there are a lot of players. Wacky shit happens. It's neat. :)
    Posted 16 months ago by naitPee Subscriber! | Permalink
  • During the last test, I read this forum post and promptly stopped contributing to projects. I was one of those who had a spreadsheet of the various requirements for phases and prepped beforehand using the time in between to resupply for future projects. Typically, I contributed late at night (or early in the morning), when most people were asleep or otherwise busy, usually resulting in 30-40% of each phase. I figured this helped projects move forward. Reading this thread, I think now that I was wrong.

    Regardless, I've given away my house and its possessions (to a new user) and will find something else to spend my in-game time on. Perhaps we just need more projects? I don't know, but I probably won't be contributing to them again until the game leaves beta, if ever. Hopefully that'll give others a better chance to contribute to projects.

    Re: naitPee... Everyone does get a trophy, of sorts. They get an imbued teleportation script to the new street. I think that's a great gift for new users who barely get a chance to help out because they don't yet have the skills.
    Posted 16 months ago by ss Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i'm really disappointed with how mishandled the projects have been handled in the game design. pretty much every change to projects has been a change for the worse that has only gotten worser-er as the game has scaled up in population and continuous playtime.

    it might be for the best if projects were scrapped entirely and re-imagined from the ground up.

    or at least reverted to their prototype state.
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe there just shouldn't be leaderboards.  People can work on projects for the satisfaction of working together.  There doesn't need to be a ranking of who was the 'best' participant in the project. It doesn't need to be a competitive thing.
    Posted 16 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The random aspect to street projects was the most exciting thing to happen in Glitch in awhile.  I've played a few similar games and once the wiki is updated, upper-level content becomes pretty stale.  It's fun to figure things out; that lasts about fifteen minutes, then it's read or die time.  Now to find out these aren't random at all is disappointing.  I know the street projects aren't supposed to be the ultimate endgame, but it seems like something that just continues to favor hoarders.  Anyway, it's a game theory quibble.  I still dig the game... competition isn't really the fun part.
    Posted 16 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just discovered projects this afternoon. I likened the experience to Vegas. You go in hoping to somehow make it into the top 3 (or in my case, to even make it into the top 10), but knowing your chances are dismal. You dump in an hour of your rl time (assuming you prep for it) and ridiculous amounts of resources. You get such a rush from it, such fun, even when you see you didn't "win." ...And then you realize, you've blown all your reserve resources and all you got was a teleportation script to bumblefart nowhere. In just 3 project participations, each at only 1-3% contribution, I blew through all my food and supply reserves and parted with about 4000 currents, and my highest rank was 11th. 

    They are definitely a lot of fun, despite the resource drain. I would suggest a smidge more in the reward department. I mean, you blow 2000 energy, and only get 500 in return. My vote would be more Favor. Another suggestion is to make "contribute to project" type quest at a relatively low level (like 15), and build in a little project etiquette into the quest. Like if you don't have spinach for the frittata, and someone gives you some, give them a few frittatas to contribute, that kind of stuff.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Posted 16 months ago by La_La Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you for all the thoughtful comments! There are some great suggestions in this thread and many of them overlap with the discussions we have already had in the office.

    A lot of you know this already, but we are actively working on making street projects more interesting and rewarding for players of all levels. It's a pretty big task, as you can imagine - we want to come up with a scalable solution that will keep old players challenged, new players amused and provide for team-based fun for many game days to come.

    Chances are that a year from now, street projects in their current form will seem foreign to new players. We may revamp the reward system, introduce an entirely new concept for unlocking streets, or even use a combination of the two. In any case, we'll probably do it in our own, uniquely Glitch way and you'll be pleased as punch once we figure out the best long-term solution.

    We're on it!
    Posted 16 months ago by sugarQb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That is awesome to know; thanks for telling us, sugarQb!
    Posted 16 months ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I couldn't read all this it was too much, so if this question has already been ask..Then forgive me in advance.. But..I never know when or where there is a project going on, am I missing something? .. is there an info pack somewhere that tells us..because everyone seems to know and join in and I come tagging along ( if I am lucky ) at the very end..and lately..not at all. :-/ 

    Would be really nice if my lil rock popped up now and then and said "Hey Cryztal, whatcha doing here when there's a project going on ( in such a such a street ) get yer wee lazy glitchy bum over there and help"  .. :D 
    Posted 16 months ago by Cryztal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Basically, Cryztal, the best way to find out where the street projects are is by joining the New Streets group and hanging around in its chat. Someone eventually mentions the current project and what stage it's on, etc. Or, you can always ask in said chat, "Hey, where's the project at?" And someone almost always responds immediately.

    I do think there should be a good native in-game indicator of where projects are happening, but for right now, that group is the most reliable way to stay updated.
    Posted 16 months ago by Mahkia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks so much, sugarQb! I have faith that TS will delight us all, as ever. :)
    Posted 16 months ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We will still be building new roads in a year!? Whoa Nellie.....Glitch will be huge!
    Posted 16 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Innie - it may very well be the case!
    Did you check out the new world map that we introduced yesterday?
    This is just a zoomed in portion of the larger things to come!
    Posted 16 months ago by sugarQb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • SugarQb, I can't view the world map image because I don't have a Twitter account, neither do I particularly care to start one... Could you link to an alternate, by any chance? ^^
    Posted 16 months ago by Arii Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sure! We posted one on Facebook yesterday as well, or you can use this direct link.
    It's just a screen grab - the actual map inside the game is way cooler because it's interactive. :)
    Posted 16 months ago by sugarQb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, so it's a 'zoomed in' portion of the map...wow...I'll say that again backwards...wow...going to be a HUGE world...looking forward to it (especially those beaches... ;) )
    Posted 16 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The Locations Page will show the names of streets that are currently under construction.
    Posted 16 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Skwid - Only if the streets are listed...in some of the newer regions, the posting of the new regions and streets hasn't kept up with the speedy work of the players to open new streets.

    Oh, and @sugarQb - thanks for the update that you are working on changing/updating the Street projects...glad to see you have been thinking about it also and look forward to the revamping...BTW, did I mention, WOW about the world map....oh, yea, I did...
    Posted 16 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
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