Topic

Problem With The Way Bonus Chunks Work

With mining being as overcrowded as it is, the way bonus chunks are currently set up makes it more beneficial for a player to NOT level mining than it is to level mining.  Since rocks are becoming fewer and far between, the longer you can mine on any rock = the more helpers you can get = bigger benefit.  I am already wishing for the "Unlearn" skill so I can put my mining back down to a lower level.

It's kind of confusing in my mind why it was changed in a way that would benefit a lower level miner in the first place.  While I do enjoy all the bonus chunks that I've gotten, I think it's important to make mining worthwhile to learn.  With diminishing returns on gems, and less bonus chunks with higher level mining, it is kind of pointless to learn the full skill tree.

I mean, I could get upset that someone with Botany skill has the option to poison trees and I don't, but it shouldn't be changed to where no matter the skill level anyone can kill trees, just like I don't think mining should be more beneficial to lower levels.

Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I personally fail to see how a 20 second mine time and horrible energy conservation would be more beneficial.  The whole reason the bonus chunks were added was to try and balance/give a consolation prize to the guy still mining a rock that has already been gone for 10 seconds.  Meanwhile, the tier IV miner is already 2 whacks into the next one before the beginner is finished.  Being a low level miner myself currently, I have also constantly seen no bonus occur if a faster miner finished before me and is long gone.  The final death throws of the rock will give me 1 bonus if I'm lucky.  Even if there were just 3 faster people on it and now long gone.

    Not to mention all the times you're mining and there isn't any helpers.  At that point it is obvious how the skill is paying off.
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With a high ratio of miners to rocks, as we've seen today, I believe Laurali is correct regarding the lack of payoff for learning higher levels of mining.  I've stopped learning any further mining skills for the time being.

    The high payoffs possible with the current bonus chunk system provides an incentive to cooperate in Ajaya, even for high-level miners.  However, with the lag that seems to result from having a large number of players, some people simply cannot move fast enough to benefit from a cooperative strategy. So I am expecting that within Ajaya either cooperation will break down and the high-level miners will leave, or the demographics will become skewed towards those with fast computers and fast reflexes.

    Outside Ajaya, with numbers like today, mining becomes very competitive. Being part of an organized mining group may help, but that may result in mining becoming a net loss for unaffiliated miners.  Also, as noted, with the current bonus chunk system, group mining lowers the return on investment in learning higher-level mining skills.

    Eliminating or reducing the bonus chunks would make it more worthwhile to learn mining skills, but also might result in mining becoming a net loss for lower-level miners -- again assuming a high ratio of miners to rocks like we have seen today.  Without some way to raise initial capital, new players will find it difficult to take advantage of skills that require land or specialized tools.

    If the resources remain fixed as the number of players grows, the character of the game is going to change.  Could it be a plot by the Club of Rome?
    Posted 15 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Omosh B'gosh:  With the numbers the way they are today, you are extremely likely to have a big group of people helping you mine, the only thing that matters is getting to the rock fastest, and if are you are able to get to a rock fast and click fast then with a lower level mining skill you will benefit more than anyone with a high level mining skill.  Those high level miners may finish earlier but they won't get to another rock faster because there are no other rocks.

    As it is now, it seems being a low level miner without lag in Ajaya Bliss is the most beneficial way to mine.  Since the numbers have become overwhelming in all areas that spawn sparkly, and Ajaya Bliss having 50+ people at a time, and the rate at which a project moves, and thousands of new players each day, I don't forsee the mining problem becoming balanced anytime soon.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Eliminating or reducing the bonus chunks would make it more worthwhile to learn mining skills, but also might result in mining becoming a net loss for lower-level miners"

    I'm not saying that low level miners should not benefit at all from mining, but the fact that they benefit even a similar amount (if not more the way mining is now) makes me frustrated.  I certainly don't expect to see super harvests from trees as often because I haven't learned the gardening/botany/whatever skills, and I don't expect to be able to get as much meat from pigs with Animal Kinship, I don't expect to effectively fight rooks without the proper skills, so why should low level miners be benefiting so much from NOT having the skill?

    It takes me nearly 7 or 8 tries to water a single patch in my house, I have destroyed countless herbs trying to shuck them.  That's how the game goes, I invest time in what I want to benefit from which is what I do a lot of in the game.  I don't like the idea that we are giving any sort of advantage to anyone who hasn't learned the proper skills, if you put in the time you should see the rewards, and if you want to see the rewards you should learn to prioritize what is important
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree that mining needs rebalancing, and am quite sure stoot et al. are thinking of it, with hard statistics to support whatever they end up doing.

    Apart from that, I guess we should stop telling new players who ask about making currants fast to go mining. At least until the new mining area is finished and we see how's it going.
    Posted 15 months ago by Ximenez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I see the point you're driving at, but it all seems to vary depending on the situation.  Ajaya Bliss is one end of the spectrum and running around Groddle Heights for metal rocks is the other end.  There is definitely an unfair advantage when the rocks instantly vanish and there is nothing to move onto, but the problem there is the fact 50+ people are packed in a room with 15 nodes.  The bonus chunks fit nicely into the system in a larger more open environment, and it most definitely breaks down in a bottleneck such as AB.

    If anything I would say a spot like Ajaya where a mass amount of players flock for a resource could be considered the problem.  With the ever increasing player base it would be nice if we were spread out more, and a silly treasure room will cause a mass flocking.  Where in this case a balancing tool broke due to the less than ordinary circumstance.
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Seems if anything there should be a much more harsh cap on how much bonus is even possible.
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It really is odd to me that the devs took new peoples advice on mining logistics.

    I know new peoples opinions are sometimes very enlightening but when it comes to mining ofcourse they were pissed because they saw all of the Alphas and Betas with a crazy amount of money and wanted in on the action. As WE ALL DID! understandable.However it we all found it understandable after we spent many hours "studying"  that we did infact "deserve the crazy amounts of cash.

    If I paid for a subscription and then found out that there were awesome free "non subscriber only " content I would be pissed.

    Which brings me to my next point.If mining stays this way...I wont be paying for another subscription or playing. Hate to say what I think a lot of people are thinking :/
    Posted 15 months ago by Sperkle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • MiMiBerry: what do you mean by "if mining stays this way"? Which specific part do you think should change?
    Posted 15 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, I have Mining I and if I mine a rock and some people try and mine it out from under me, I get 20-odd chunks bonus because they are greedy. Who's problem is it?  Me, who's only really interested in mining as a peripheral activity (mmm... shrine powder!) or them who want to steal the rock out from under me?  I think it's fairly balanced now... they get 45 chunks split among them, I get 20-odd chunks, which is half of what I'd get if I were allowed to mine the rock in peace.
    Posted 15 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The only way to nerf mining is to make it less profitable or make other things more profitable.  If you could make the same amount of money harvesting trees or cooking  etc people would do that.  The fact that mining is so profitable is the only reason people do it.. its certainly not any fun.  A good initial step would be to nerf / shut down bliss entirely.  Theres no reason to have this room where currants baiscally spawn.  I think making ALL rocks respawn much slower would also thin the crowds.  If there were less rocks people will gravitate to a different way to make there money.  

    Personally I wish there were other ways to be equally profitable.
    Posted 15 months ago by Xerexs Subscriber! | Permalink
  • re: "If you could make the same amount of money harvesting trees or cooking  etc people would do that."

    I've been flipping tree harvests since I got Gardening 3 (12 items per harvest; can harvest each tree 2x per game day), and frankly it's much more profitable than mining currently is. It's just (as pointed out above) that lots of people say "Mining" when a newbie asks how to make money. Personally I think that Animal Kinship or Gardening are now more desirable--it'll just take time for that word to spread. In the meantime I am taking advantage of the imbalance by flipping allspice, plain bubbles, and general vapor on the auctions.

    > "A good initial step would be to nerf / shut down bliss entirely.  Theres no reason to have this room where currants baiscally spawn.  I think making ALL rocks respawn much slower would also thin the crowds."

    This is a casual game, not WoW. People aren't going to want to spend hours wandering around trying to figure out how to make money if the devs continually nerf everything that has the potential of helping people make money faster. I'm okay with the way things are now, and am (as stated previously in the Ajaya Bliss thread) 100% opposed to implementing technical solutions to people problems. Education is the solution in this case. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Mackenzie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't have level 4 yet, but I get much better payouts when mining alone, the rock just last much longer. Also had lots of extra sparkly and beryl, until someone else comes and taps the rock. Then it seems to drop quickly.

    When i can mine alone I've had some beryl rocks do like 100 units, the rock just stays 100% for the first 50 or so , then starts to go down. 
    If i share with someone, it drops quick and I see something like 38 units.

    I found my favorite mining spot overrun, but I think that is something that needs to be addressed, try to find a way to keep the campers moving, make the rocks like the trees where you can only harvest a rock once every 15 mins or something, forcing the player to explore a little more and maybe get sidetracked/get more social.

    Change the rock animation pngs so that a base rock is still there but have a rock state for each player showing the type of ore inside the base rock, kind of like gel sacs.
    That way it still effectively looks like the player is mining some rock, but you can provide different messages to the  player based on state. Let a player mine the rock however much you devs need, and don't have it have it effect the other players ability to mine the same rock.
    Keep help mine option, the player helping only gets ore if they have not mined the rock in the time period, helping counts against what they can mine off the rock, all players mining share in the bonuses.
    So a player helping another mine a rock they have already fully mined wont get any ore, but could get a bonus here and there when they pop up.
    Posted 15 months ago by MrBoogs Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd like to point out that the bonus for lower level players only exists under certain circumstances- and that is when a high level miner would actually have to mine more than once to pick off the entire rock. Yesterday in Ajaya Bliss this never happened, there were so many people that the rocks vanished almost immediately, so it was definitely more beneficial to have a high mining skill because you could move on straight away. Whether you mined for ten or three seconds didn't matter in the least. The only thing that mattered was how fast you got to the rock.

    Right now, on the other hand, there are about ten players in Ajaya, so if you manage to be the first to click the rock AND you have a low mining skill, you have an advantage.

    I think that's enough of a balance, but that's just my opinion.
    Posted 15 months ago by Cefeida Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am still boycotting mining on principle.  It's way screwed up, though I have to admit I don't have any brilliant ideas for making it better.  

    (By which I mean that mining was already more powerful than anything else, with regards to earning currants, and then you guys went and added the extra powerful bonus chunks, which makes it even more out of scale.  It's really annoying, and the single bonus chunk per helper was plenty, though I might have suggested giving every player in a helping situation the "help mine" bonus, rather than just one of them.)
    Posted 15 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have Mining III ... I am wondering where all these bonus chunks people are talking about are at, while you're at it, please tell me where any rock with more than 50 chunks is at. My needs for rock are basic at this time, just looking what is required for making powders...often, but, not always, when I am mining a rock by myself, there will be several others that show up and clear the rock, the little ribbon in the corner of my screen says, 'you received 1 bonus chunk from playerxx's help' - not a whole list of '1 chunk for everybody' or whatever it may say...it seems I only get 1 chunk extra no matter the amount of help...so, my opinion on this???....

    Take away ALL bonus chunks - when you mine - you get out exactly what YOU work for.

    that is the way everything else works, you may get bonus harvests at times, but, you don't get more, say, vapor from your harvest if there are other players harvesting at the same time that you are...I understand there are cooperative harvests, such as, a group harvesting a peat bog - and all involved get peat - 4 pieces, because that is a normal harvest, make mining so it doesn't have 'bonus' chunks, that may cut out a lot of the complaining.
    Posted 15 months ago by Firestone1960 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If I paid for a subscription and then found out that there were awesome free "non subscriber only " content I would be pissed.

    There is nothing available to free  players that is not also available to subscribers.  However, TS staff have said all along that RL money will never give you an in-game advantage.  If you think being a subscriber will somehow make your mining rewards bigger/better, that's not likely to happen.
    Posted 15 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn

    I believe he was using that as a metaphor.  He feels he spent the time to "subscribe" to Mining IV, and he sees people with Mining I(non-subscribers) occasionally make more chunks than him due to the current bonus system.

    I still firmly believe this is a problem that only occurs in certain situations.  If I were to spend all of my time mining in AB then perhaps I'd stay a lower level to make the most of bonus chunks.  I'd much rather mine on the move while exploring or just running a route I've come up with.  At this point speed is a real thing and helpers (no matter how big the player base is getting) are not always guaranteed. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You'd think this is how we all made our livings.....its a game.... fun...remember??
    Posted 15 months ago by Fstra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Fstra

    He's making mooooore than me though, a-a-and I worked harder!

    I fully agree though.  If we spent less time worrying about how well off everybody else is and more time enjoying the game it would be a more enjoyable experience.  I also can't help but think if more people spent time outside of AB rather than spending a day farming for currents they could get more out of the game.
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've been in Bliss a few times, with Mining II. There's always a few dozen others leaping around, occasionally a little more ordered but usually entertainingly chaotic. I get bonuses anywhere between +1 and +42, with the bias tending towards about +6.

    No-one gets more than one hit on the rock with that sort of crowd, so there's very little difference between Mining II and IV in that respect.

    But that only holds true in Bliss. Everywhere else in the mines, Mining is as dull and lifeless as it always was - but if you've got the patience and/or OCD, it's lucrative. Eventually.

    For health usage and gem pickups, IV obviously wins out. Trading off quiet Mining IV vs Mining II in Ajaya, IV will be better.
    Posted 15 months ago by Spong Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Its a game but there are perameters in games, and in my opinion its not fun when it feels unbalanced. Mining is my favorite thing to do in game, a lot of people complain its boring but on my opinion cooking/harvesting gets really old really fast.

    What good is it to me if my favorite thing to do is all out of whack? Everytime I'm mining in Ajaya and people record bonus chunks it is usually low levels getting huge numbers because the higher levels are getting two hits per chunk and then the low level s finish before the high levels second hit is finished.

    Saying "its just a game, who cares?" is counter productive because the game should have a good balance, and it currently doesn't. I just would like to see mining go back to +1 per helper, even though I will miss getting all thee huge bonus it feels too overpowered for other elements of the game and discourages people from doing other activities in game.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can't help but feel this entire conversation would be far less likely to exist if there wasn't an AB.  The most I have ever had help me outside would be four or maybe 5, and at those numbers a faster miner is still able to come out on top.  These huge and record bonus chunks are only occurring because there happens to be a "best" spot in the game for one resource.

    Having a best spot in the game for any one resource contradicts the entire feel of the game for me personally.  If a whole region were considered a top pick, and not one specific street (as in this case) a large swarm of players would be far less likely to form.  When the swarm never formed the problem of giant bonus chunks is almost non-existent. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With 5 miners who can get 2-3 hits per one low level mining hit the low level will certainly always come out on top
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I will wholeheartedly disagree with you on that point.  That is true in AB, but having spent a day and a half running around saving up for the 50k house with mining I&II the faster miners were beating me every time in Groddle Heights.  Not to mention there is no shortage of things to mine out in the heights, so they are able to maintain a higher productivity with faster mining and actually having things to move on to next.

    I should also mention it was a rarity to ever have more than 1 or 2 people helping me in this particular area.  Even with the mass amounts of new players every day.

    On a side note I picked up mining III last night and I couldn't be happier with my lower time, and have noticed better luck with gems already.  To each his own, you will not be seeing me in AB any time soon.  If ever.
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Omosh B'Gosh...I dont go to AB anymore.  Last night I went there, just to help someone get in.....there were over 50 people, and it was pure chaos.  Infact, the entire caverns and deeps were swarming.  It was very much like an ant bed.

    I am debating taking a week or two off the game until it settles down.  It has just been more stressful than fun the past week. Too many people, and not enough resources.
    Posted 15 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i just have to say that as a miner with Mining 4, i would never go back to Mining 3 or 2.

    Mining 4 is much more efficient. combined with Earthshakers it beats Ajaya Mining at any level.

    if there really are too many people in the caverns, and i doubt there are. it might be time to move your high speed mining operation to PolloKoo.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Most of these problems definitely seem to stem from the ever increasing player base.  I couldn't be happier now that I managed to get my dream-house, and I'm looking forward to getting my farm started in the privacy of my own home to get away when I feel I need it.

    As a miner who spends no time in AB, and only a small chunk of time in the caverns itself I still manage to feel productive with my time though.  I am a newer player though, so I have not ever had the luxury of experiencing the game with a much smaller community.  I could see how a veteran may feel the game is more stressful than peaceful in these times.
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Omosh I want to know what times you are in game, yesterday I tried mining in Ilmenskie and couldn't find a single rock not being mined, so just out of curiosity I went to heights, which I have suggested to low level miners before the mining change, and did not find a single rock not already being mined, so I went to Pollookoo and had the same problem.

    I could have co-mined but I only wanted to see how crowded it was. And even if you are able to find a spot with only a few helpers, the fact that it is even possible to take advantage of low level mining in ajaya, which I have seen numerous times, intentional or not means something should be fixed. You should not be able to drastically benefit from having a lower level.

    As far as gems go, with each gem you get the chance of getting more decreases per game day. So if you only plan to mine for a little and pick up some gems it would be beneficial to get higher mining for the gems but people who mine majority of their time see less and less gems as they go
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was on for the ENTIRE day yesterday to get the remainder of the money I needed for my house.  So I was able to experience the Heights (and many other spots) from 6am EST all they way until 10pm.  I worked out my own path that I work in a circuit so to speak and there was never a point where I thought to myself, "Damn, it's been forever since I've mined."  It was a constant affair, and to be honest I probably ended up spending more time nibbling pigs to make sammiches than mining.  I am not experiencing this game-breaking problem others speak of on the lack of things to mine...as a miner.

    I also never played at a point where there wasn't a game full of miners.  So I have nothing to compare the present time to.

    EDIT:  I suppose I should also mention I was able to hit my 8000 energy cap twice yesterday as well.  I consider that to be a point I managed to stay very productive even during peak times.  I'm sure I could have been able to do more still had I felt like investing in Earthshakers.
    Posted 15 months ago by Omosh B'Gosh Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yesterday may have set a record for number of people online.  I used it as an opportunity to visit some of the less populated areas, but I would periodically teleport into Ilmskie to see how things were going.  (I stopped trying to check out Ajaya, since that seemed to bring my browser to its knees.)  There were always rocks available to mine, but often with a group of people around them -- and that was pretty much always the case for sparkly. I have Mining III skill.  When I thought the other miners were lower level, I'd usually let them go first.  Often the numbers mining were such that I got in just one strike.  When I was part of a group working on a rock, if another rock popped up I would wait for the others to finish rather than rush over to it. Mining in this fashion, I didn't see much advantage to being level III vs. II.  If I had raced to be the first to each rock and to get in as many blows as possible, maybe I would have seen more of an advantage to being level III.

    I came back to Ilmskie after midnight, and the situation was entirely different. My first reaction was "wow, look at all the rock."  I had gotten used to seeing the place stripped.  Ilmskie was by no means empty; I often mined with others.  But the atmosphere was more relaxed and more social.  People stopped to chat and took turns being the first miner.  It was fun, so I spent a couple of hours there.

    I saw Laurali's post as a cautionary note:  When the ratio of miners to rocks reaches a certain point, the character of the game changes and the skill tree starts to seem less less rational. Has the ratio reached this point? If it only happens on a limited basis, in certain places and at certain times, then it's no big deal. However, as the gaming population increases, keeping the character of the game the same will require expanding the world or increasing the rate at which resources renew.  TS has already said the world will expand, so the only question may be whether this will keep pace with the growing population of players.  I hope it does, because I have liked the character of the game and the culture that's been developing within it.

    I do think this is about more than Ajaya.  The high density of both miners and resources there makes it a special case -- and an interesting one.  But the ratio of resources to players has consequences outside Ajaya, and for other activities as well as mining.  

    @striatic - appreciate your info and perspective.  I'll check out PolloKoo.
    Posted 15 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink