Topic

What is the Technology Level of Ur?

I don't think this has been adequately established.
Consider:
a) We have a subway.  It is a subway that goes under the ocean. Who built it?
b) There are a few locations (one party house) where you can find an electrical outlet. Where does the power come from?
c) We find a few locations (Toxic Moon, at least one seam street) where we find barrels of radioactive waste.
d) On the other hand, our stills look quite steampunk, we do most of our work with hand tools.
e) At the same time we have FP Grills, Blenders, Spice Grinders, Crystalmalizers, and other tools that would appear to need electricity.
f) We also have alchemy, chemistry's ancient precursor.

Here's three reasons why I'm posing the question: 

a) In terms of suggesting new ideas for gadgets, vehicles, and suchlike, it would be good to know what is truly Glitchy, and what is not. In my mind, we don't have a ton of advanced tech. We have some cleantech (fuel-cell based blockmakers). Otherwise, we seem to have the remnants of advanced tech (the subway).
b) There seem to be some inconsistencies in the Giant Imagination story -- IE, which giant imagined toxic waste, for Giant's sake?
c) If we DO have electricity -- say -- where do we get it?  Because I think TS has an opportunity as it's considering Custom Housing to say, okay players, if you want to have a home that's not lit by fireflies, you need to build a windmill, or a solar array, or a waterwheel.  Or you need to connect to the grid, which would probably entail something horrible, like a monthly bill.

At the end of the day, I think there's an opportunity for TS to iron out some narrative inconsistencies, and perhaps as housing is being considered, another opportunity to expose players to some really interesting ideas about sustainability. 

(Edit: This point about sustainability is an aside; this is not explicitly promote sustainability as a value, although that would not be a bad thing -- it's more about creating internal consistency with respect to narrative, and possibly to give players choosing custom real estate in the future some other interesting ideas/challenges/constraints to navigate in making their choices. IE: Living close to "urban epicenters" might have associated utility costs while living far away might mean you need to ensure your home has adequate access to power.  But this is a really granular point and is far afield from the original idea of asking you, the players what you think the level of tech is in Ur.)

Your thoughts, as always, are invited!

~Crash

Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • Hmmm, interesting thoughts!

    Perhaps all the tools do not run on electricity but on imagination, and maybe Toxic Waste is a byproduct of the Rook somehow?
    Posted 12 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't want TS to iron out the inconsistencies.

    Nor do I want them to turn the game into yet another moral tale about sustainability, or animal rights, or peat bog rights, or anything resembling a parable that says there is a single, uniform, consistent lifestyle that we need to 'learn'.  

    Inconsistencies are expected when 11 giants each start imagining things.  Quirky giants, not a predictable pantheon.  

    I'm for irrational, unpredictable, contradictory, charming tales that don't fit into a precise schema.  

    Moar chaos, fewer straight jackets
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm not saying necessarily that I think the game should head one way or another but I do think that it's probably possible to create references to sustainability without it being overwhelming.  (there's a middle ground between chaos and straight jackets)
    Posted 12 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn: I get where you're coming from, and I like how you state your case.  But I think you perhaps think I'm being preachier than I am, in fact, feeling.

    I'm not trying to jump FULLY on the sustainability wagon here -- I mean, we already have fuel-cell powered appliances, and public transportation.

    The thing I'm really shooting for is ironing out any narrative inconsistency while it's still in beta. I know you LIKE those inconsistencies -- that's a fair point.

    The thing that particularly intrigues me is using it as an aesthetic constraint for housing purposes.  Or an aesthetic enhancement.

    Wanna live WAY out in the badlands?  Better get used to candle (or firefly) light, unless you want to figure out a way to power your house.

    Not saying this is a MUST have.  Am saying it would add some verisimilitude.  Agreed, that may not be to everyone's taste -- but I do think it has the strength of creating a diversity of choice trees that players can find their place in.

    I'm sure there's still room to get players like WindBorn into their rocket-powered laser castles, however. :)

    ~CTP

    PS: As an aside, aren't straitjackets already a wardrobe choice?
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Interesting post!
    I always thought we should have one or two "cities" to keep the balance between the areas
    Tiny Speck has some neat city concepts lying around from the beginning ;)
    Posted 12 months ago by Lemo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Crashtestpilot

    One straightjacket
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Incredibly interesting post. 

    A lot of the time in games, I regret to say that I'm one of the players with their hand directly on the skip button when it comes to world info like cutscenes, quest text, and outside info sources. (Think the Glitch encyclopedia!)

    However, I've invested a lot of time into Glitch, and the world is incredibly interesting. Things like the Jethimadh tower quest were particularly so. I'm all for a little more background information on Ur, especially so we know what flavor of ideas really meshes with the game, as you said. Though, I'm sort of in the anything goes camp, considering the world is being imagined by 11 giants :) Alph could have imagined the subway but never thought of planes, cars, boats, or bicycles, for instance :)

    On another note, I wonder whether we are supposed to think that the Glitchen invented the things in their world? Are we supposed to think of Ur the way many people consider earth? That it was created by god, but then he's mostly been leaving us to do our own inventing and interaction with the world? Or are the giants totally at the helm of this dream, and have given our little glitchen all their tools and houses and lizard friends?

    It's a very interesting conversation to have :) I hope this thread gets a lot of attention. Staffies, this is one to look at! Thanks CTP :)
    Posted 12 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just read the cracker joke about lightbulbs, which highlights the problem with inconsistencies:

    How many Glitches does it take to change a lightbulb?
    A: None. What is a lightbulb?

    It is a problem because there are lightbulbs in the crappy cheap apartments. So I read this and felt uncomfortable, because it doesn't make sense.

    I don't mind having lightbulbs there and fireflies everywhere else, or alchemy and fuel cells, but the kind of inconsistency of this joke is like not having a good proofreader. (I use it as an example. It's not that I found other things like this one in Ur.)
    Posted 12 months ago by Ximenez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How many things IRL are truly consistent?
    Posted 12 months ago by Berry Goode Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Liza: Thanks for the bump; I thought it was an interesting idea as well, hence the post.  I can totally accept the idea that giants did and did not imagine certain things, but, let's look at this from another perspective.  We have Tinkering; we can build tools.  As we gain skill in Tinkering, we can build more tools. We have beakers; we can discover compounds (granted ones that the Giants already imagined).  By extension of this logic, we ought to be able to learn MORE things and invent/discover more stuff.

    I'm not trying to handcuff us into any one particular play-style, or world.  I just think, as you said, Liza, there are things that are Glitchy, and things that are non-Glitchy.  What determines these states of Glitchiness?

    I would imagine that it's some combination of fun, whimsy, and some internally consistent rules or values.

    For example, let me try a stab at a short list of things that are not IN Ur (yet) but that I believe retain Glitchy qualities, against a list of things that are non-Glitchy, and also not in Ur.

    Glitchy
    a) Balloons
    b) Unicycles
    c) Kites
    d) Fishing poles
    e) Pogo Sticks

    Non-Glitchy
    a) Guns
    b) Microwaves
    c) Automobiles
    d) Televisions
    e) Telephones

    ===

    @Berry: 4.
    No, wait. 5.
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @diaveborn - I would loathe sustainability Aesops getting shoehorned in, no matter how discrete and unobtrusive- it's annoying, pointless, and kind of a turn-off. I do my part IRL; I don't need a game beating me over the head with it as well, particularly when the game itself doesn't really put heavy emphasis on it beyond fuel cells.

    @Crashtestpilot - I'd add wind-up clockwork mechanisms and pretty well anything hand-cranked to the "Glitchy" category, and lasers, chainsaws and Slayer to the "Non-Glitchy" category.
    Posted 12 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • d add wind-up clockwork mechanisms and pretty well anything hand-cranked to the "Glitchy" category, and lasers, chainsaws and Slayer to the "Non-Glitchy" category.

    We are imagined by Giants, not gnomes
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn Are gnomes famous for their wind-up inventions? Or do they dislike chainsaws, lasers, and Slayer? 

    If it's a reference then it sailed over my head. Maybe I need to get out more :P
    Posted 12 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In many fantasy settings, gnomes are tireless tinkerers of mechanical objects.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ah, well, Alph has always struck me as one with that particular Gnomeish quality, if you don't mind me saying so :)
    Posted 12 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Djabrill: Okay, think of this example:

    Right now if we want to get rid of a written note we must drop it or put it in a shrine.  What if our houses had a disposal mechanism?  Would it bother you if it were a recycle bin instead of a trash can?  

    I'm not talking about adding in things that would be pointless or shoehorned in; instead, I'm thinking of things that have an actual in-game purpose like my example above.  And if it were a bin or it would serve the same purpose for you as a trashcan and I don't feel like it would be beating anyone over the head and it would be easily ignorable (unless accompanied by a lot of extra talk from the rock for example, which is not what I'm talking about).

    Anyway, I just saw the edit in the OP and realize I'm going off topic so I'll stop here.
    Posted 12 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @diaveborn: Saw your post on recycling earlier today; you're right, it's not the main thrust of what this thread is about, but that doesn't mean I don't support YOUR post, or your contributions here!
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • because..aliens!
    Posted 12 months ago by Volkov Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One of TS's explicit goals for Glitch was to build a game which was "absurd." So consistency ... meh.

    :D
    Posted 12 months ago by Spockian Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I appreciate the voices against consistency.  While my opinion varies from yours, I welcome the feedback!
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @diaveborn - A bin is a good idea. I'm mostly talking about, say, dropping a note into one and getting a message that says something like, "And that's how we Glitchen can keep our world clean and pollution-free!" That sort of thing. The kinda over-the-top, nothing-to-do-with-anything shoehorning is more what I mean. I'm cool with a way to trash things; I guess I'm more against getting punched in the face with it. That "extra talk from the rock" business is the only part of that I'd have a problem with, so we're more or less on the same side, if maybe for different reasons.
    @WindBorn - What about Cubimals?
    Posted 12 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Djabrill
     
    That was the 12th, unnamed giant.  You can see huge statues of him half-buried in the meadows of Groddle.  There are even stele with his image on them in places like Alakol.  
    Posted 12 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lol I always wondered if perhaps the Rook was to blame- people get waaay into 'em to the exclusion of other things oftentimes, and the Rook seems to be the most valuable one.
    Posted 12 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like the light bulb example. Quirky inconsistencies are fine- they keep Glitch Glitchy in some ways. But painfully obvious inconsistencies like that one are mistakes. Or they look like them, and that's what should be ironed out.
    Posted 12 months ago by Fernstream Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, we know from the molybdenum description that it is used in sophisticated electronics, so I have no issue with the idea that we have magic (rainbow potions) and electronics co-existing in terms of the Glitchen technosphere.
    The open question is really what we can build.
    In the Hidden Locations, we see torn tour posters for places like Ix and the like -- perhaps all this was a world that was previously a tourist destination? 
    For whom?
    Are we here AFTER some ... other population?
    The thing is, at least to my eyes, there IS a narrative. It's not ALL random.
    Well, some of it is, but there is a story to Ur.
    Or at least the hooks on which a story can be hung.
    Lord Bacon-o has taken a brilliant stab at it in his narratives.
    My point is there IS, or is GOING to be A narrative.
    Whether it's player generated or TS-generated is an open question.

    Where do the Bureau-crocs come from?
    What are Uncle Friendly & Helga?
    Why is there a yoga-frog?
    Who built the subways?

    What can we build?
    What WILL we be able to build?

    Is there some consistency? Or is it all random?

    These are the OPEN questions. I'm not saying, necessarily, that they NEED answers.

    But, some answers would be nice. And I think that it would lead to a world where our expectations and the magic that happens could meet.

    I don't know how else to explain it. Some may regard this (some do, I think) as a need for consistency.  But I think part of it is a desire for a world that makes, even unto itself, a kind of whimsical truth.

    That's what this narrative thread is about for me.  And I feel I'm not alone, based on some of your posts.

    Please, more of your brilliance.

    ~CTP
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And where are we supposed to go to look for that butterfly bone hairclip that gwendolyn lost in that river?   Where are the rivers?   I spent some time wondering if I would find it in the base of the Tower.
    Posted 12 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with several people on several different counts:

    1. I think it would be pretty cool to be able/required to build power sources for your house, ESPECIALLY waterwheels, but that's just because I'm a bit of a geek for them and I think they'd be prettiest. Imagine coming into your house for the first time and it being shadowy instead of all lit up! And then you bring in bottles of fireflies or build a waterwheel, or you just live in the dark like a creeper--that sounds like FUN to me, not like sustainability preaching.

    2. I agree that sustainability preaching is incredibly annoying, but I don't think we have to worry about it from TS. The closest thing they get to it is when the verb menu on dirt piles is all "You've harvested enough dirt from this pile today."  I agree that a trash bin might as well be a recycling bin, but I think a more likely message to get from it would be, "OM NOM NOM."

    3. I actually think cars COULD be Glitchy, but only if they were tiny adorable cartoony things, like clown cars. With giant cow horns. Yes. And they run on beans.
    Posted 12 months ago by Arii Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I want the Donald Duck Car!
    Posted 12 months ago by Ximenez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Crashtestpilot wrote: e) At the same time we have FP Grills, Blenders, Spice Grinders, Crystalmalizers, and other tools that would appear to need electricity.

    You can use them anywhere, not just in homes. Caves, mountains and meadows. So they must be hand cranked or powered by imagination. I see nothing that suggests that there is electricity in Ur
    Posted 12 months ago by IrenicRhonda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @IrenicRhonda:  Not to be argumentative, but to address your post on its merits, we have the molybdenum reference, cited earlier, which states that electronics are made from it; electronics require electricity, QED.

    There are also electrical outlets in a few party spaces.

    And there are lightbulbs, as Ximenez wrote earlier in this thread.

    Now, I'm personally fine if there IS or is NOT electricity in Ur.  I just think we should establish it as a narrative device.  Again, I'm harping on consistency, which has its fans and detractors -- I get that.

    My belief is, once we nail down how our stuff works in Ur, it creates the basis for more focused creativity and suggestions from us, the player-base, and naturally, TS itself.
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe Glitchy electricity isn't as we think it is... maybe it's like neurotransmitter energy running from the Giants' collective cerebral cortex? Providing the Giants exist, this neural energy still flows but using Imagination - it flows through seemingly conventional circuitry and equipment. Just a thought!
    Posted 12 months ago by Moz Art Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Crashtestpilot wrote: Not to be argumentative, but to address your post on its merits, we have the molybdenum reference, cited earlier, which states that electronics are made from it; electronics require electricity, QED.

    Also not wishing  to be argumentative, but for interest of discussion  to get to the bottom of where Ur energy and power comes from,  I would like to point out that I have  an electronic calculator which does not use electricity from the mains. It's solar powered.

    So, yes, I  do now accept that there is evidence for electricity in Ur, but not for mains electricity that requires  things to be plugged in.

    And the toxic waste would be from the alchemists.

    And apart from Imagination, should we discount simple magic?
    Posted 12 months ago by IrenicRhonda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @IrenicRhonda:
    Yes, but it still uses electricity. It's just that said electricity is being generated by photovoltaics.

    Maybe everything is powered by fuel cells -- we see at least those from blockmakers and fuel makers.

    Love the line about toxic waste being from the alchemists!
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The name of the game says it all by pure dictionary definition :
    glitch  (noun)
    1. a sudden instance of malfunctioning or irregularity in an electronic system
    or
    in our case imagination ......

    As for the toxic waste - what would label a can full of rook poo ?
    Posted 12 months ago by BlackWolf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hah, rook poo! :D

    It's been established in the game that there have been different "ages" in Ur, as each Giant imagined things into being.  ("The Age of Grendaline," etc.)  

    I think it's entirely possible that one Giant (probably Tii!) imagined the Bureaucrocs (who have computers and Farmville!), the subways, and the light bulbs, and a different Giant entirely was the one who, for example, imagined the fact that Teleportation works.

    I have no interest in forcing Glitch to be internally consistent, because it has been established, as a narrative device, that there are *going* to be conflicting viewpoints and contradictions and wild contrasts from region to region and item to item, just because this world is the combined imagination of 11 separate non-Glitchen entities.  

    (Also, there's the mention of Helga and Uncle Friendly being members of the original inhabitants of Ix -- since we share the world with various non-Glitchen races who pop up from time to time, there is also the possibility that Glitchen have achieved a certain technology level, but other races of Ur -- past and present -- are in a different age of technology altogether.)

    This is a fun thread! :D
    Posted 12 months ago by Ashbet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just a nerdy addendum: fuel cells are not necessarily solar or "green." I've always though jellisacs were suspiciously petroleum-like.
    Posted 12 months ago by Fluxan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Actually the toxic waste seems to be the reminants from an age before this one in which things didn't work out so well. I don't want to put spoilers here but if you go see Gwen and do that little hidden quest you get to hear some hints about that which came before the current reallity imagined by the giants.
    Posted 12 months ago by Melting Sky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ashbet: Glad you like the thread! I was really attacking this from the perspective of what kinds of technologies that Glitchens have access to, in order to better define/imagine what we ought to be able to build in the future. I have no problem with a definition that includes a mix of magic and technology. I have no issues with the notion that there may be notable exceptions.  But at the end of the day, I thought it would provoke and interesting discussion.  Really enjoyed your views!
    @BlackWolf: Rook Poo FTW!
    @Fluxan: Given that you make fuel from Jellisacs, that would tend to follow.  I've always thought Jellisacs were some kind of algae that captures methane from the rotting bogs -- else, why the fire in the bogs? I also really like their gloopy sound effect.
    Posted 12 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There've have all these "electronic" items that dont need electricity, and yet there are plugs in the cave houses in Kajuu. Hmm.
    Posted 11 months ago by Fernstream Subscriber! | Permalink
  • :D my HTML worked to make italics!!! /overexcited little kid
    Posted 11 months ago by Fernstream Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So glad you got your italics to work.
    Posted 11 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe, it is just because the giants said so, so that would make it on a giant tech level.

    Dunno about you but I am not overthinking anything anything a giant thought of...

    Because who knows where its been.
    Posted 11 months ago by Thursday Soleil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You assume that the game is based on reality, but it isn't. Instead, it is an alternative universe which was imagined by giants. Therefore, it seems reasonable to have a subway without it being built by anyone.
    Posted 11 months ago by Anderella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Let me take a different tack, then.
    Let's assume that it is in fact reasonable to have a subway without it being built by any Glitchen hands.

    Is it then also reasonable to assume that there are no rules to the giant's imaginations?
    Is it reasonable to assume that there are items that could never appear in Ur?
    Is it reasonable to assume that there are things that are Glitchy, and things that are non-Glitchy?

    (See earlier in thread for some opinions from others about Glitchy/Non-Glitchy things.)

    If we can agree that maybe that there are things that are Non-Glitchy, and should NOT appear in Ur (and those that ARE Glitchy, and should!), then what are the rules -- the design grammar, if you will -- that defines those attributes?

    At the end of the day, I may have posed the wrong question. I called it "technology," which some of you bridled at.  Some might agree that it's a wierd amalgam of technology/magic/giant's imagination -- Totally fine with that.  If we can agree on that, then let's let that lie.

    But the grammar of things that should be here, and should not be here -- the grammar of "What Glitchen Can or Ought to be Able to Build Themselves" -- maybe that's what we need to fashion together here in this thread.

    If anyone's interested, of course!
    Posted 11 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You draw boxes and lines, and the Giants will just imagine outside the box.  
    Posted 11 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Crashtestpilot in the sense that, despite Glitch being governed by almost magical (and hence unpredictable) forces, there are still some things which could be considered "Glitchy".  The good thing about TS, is that they are continually looking at forums for ideas and players actually have quite a say in how Glitch is developing. So to simply say that the "Giants will just imagine outside the box", is probably not completely true.
    Posted 11 months ago by Anderella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Your puny imagination of what the Giants can and cannot do in no way limits what they actually imagine.

    Only Tii is so uptight that s/he colors within the lines.

    Consider Alph:

    Giant of creation.  Playful.  Inconsistent. Unreliable

    Alph(m.)
    Giant of Creation: Playful, Inconsistent, Unreliable
    Alph is the giant responsible for creating “things”. And also “stuff”. Approaching everything with the question “What IF?”, Alph is never happier than when the answer results in a complex wadjamacallit or a satisfyingly big boom.
    Posted 11 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Okay, totally accept the counter-argument.

    So. Windborn, and those who agree with Windborn: What do you want the ability to build.
    And what constrains that?

    That's the question I would most appreciate your answers and thoughtfulness.
    Posted 11 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink