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Staff Topic

An Experiment: Posting an Internal Design Proposal

I've always been curious about posting a detailed description of some change we are merely considering in order to get advanced feedback on it (and, to ward of some of the "Why didn't you tell us!?!?!" in the case that we actually do implement it).

So, with that in mind, here's an internal design proposal document titled Food Freshness & Quality which I made over the weekend. It's unexpurgated (excepting removal of links to other documents or images that you wouldn't be able to get to) and it was written for an internal audience so some of the terminology might be weird.

To be totally clear: this is just a something we are considering. We may do it and we may not do it. Your feedback is welcome (but we still may do it even if lots of people say they hate it and we still might not do it even if lots of people say they love it). It is one of dozens of specs, some of which are for things that we are in the middle of implementing and some of which we might never do. Like I said, just an experiment!

Posted 17 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I really appreciate that you gave us the opportunity to say our part but like some others on here have said, I do not like the idea of having to be attached to a game because of time. I play a game because I want to relax and unfortunately this seems to me like it would make you have to come back to the game to make sure your food doesn't rot.  I would lose interest in a game that makes me feel as if I HAVE to be there because something would happen if I could not get back in time to play it. 
    Posted 17 months ago by ~Senorita Snerkles~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Indeed a very interesting and logical idea - a great natural progression to prevent the whole image of 'game food' staying just as stale in Glitch. Would refrigeration units be available as inventory 'bags' too, perhaps as an additional premium feature? 
    Posted 17 months ago by Hburger Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you go thru with this, would we be able to "see" the freshness score of an item in AH before purchase?
    Posted 17 months ago by Dagnabbit Rabbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What about dehydration rather than refrigeration?

    To bring food into a dehydrated (dry) state:
    Food dehydrator: a portable transmute-y tool like a fruit changer or a spice grinder

    To "re-hydrate" food:
    Faucets in houses
    Water fountains in public areas

    If done cartoonishly enough, it could span food types (Dried fruit! Dried milk! Dried... buns?).

    You could dehydrate a food/stack to stop degeneration, but you couldn't use it as an ingredient until you'd re-hydrated it, and eating it while dried would give you far less energy and maybe some kind of debuff ("dry mouth").

    ETA: Instead of having to illustrate so many versions of every food object, the icons of dry food could universally be, say, 30% smaller and -70% color saturation. Easy visual shorthand and totally macro-able.
    Posted 17 months ago by Pomegrandy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Glitch is such a whimsical game... Things shouldn't turn less glitchy but glitchier and glitchier!

    What if we turn the idea upside down? What if food gets better with time?

    For example, I harvest a berry which can give me 1 energy. But if I wait for a day (a week, a month, whatever) before eating it, that same berry would give me 2 energy.

    Imagine after a while, when that ancient berry harvested years ago is worth a hundred energy!

    ETA: Of course I meant cherry, not berry.
    Posted 17 months ago by Ximenez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • booze should get better with time.
    Posted 17 months ago by Tarod Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I appreciate you bouncing this off us, and listening to our feedback. Like @Faereluth said, part of the fun of Glitch was that I enjoyed playing it... wanted to do it. This change would eliminate that want and makes it a must... and not only that, sort of change the "play any way you want to" to making requirements on how to play. I loathe the idea, although I understand why you want to do it. I see the coolness of neat algorithms to degrade food quality and can see this becoming something that happens to other items, but I think it will make the game less fun. 

    Maybe I was burned too badly when my crops started spoiling before I could harvest them due to an error (and nobody else's were) and this was the case even when I went offline. From that experience 2 tests ago, I know how time-consuming it can be to have to stay near home, never finish a quest, never join in projects or team up because food was high maintenance. It left very little room for anything else... most of all interfacing with other Glitches.

    There already was one food change recently... maybe we could pick on the herbalists this time, or people collecting barnacles? Or, maybe we leave the food degradation to things you combine and make only... but items in their natural/raw state are preserved? I don't want to be negative (especially when I understand the rationale) but I know how "non-fun" this could get and when there's no way to get around the back-and-forth, food becomes high maintenance and a frustrating component to the game.
    Posted 17 months ago by Spellbound Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think instead of degrading the food over time...
    The Food should get better over time and provide more benefits (or a maybe decrease in for example mood with increase in energy.. something random). This is what would make the game it is meant to be!
    Posted 17 months ago by Aero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love it, Aero - we thought the same thing at about the same time (see three posts above yours). And Tartod thought something similar too (see two posts above yours).
    Posted 17 months ago by Ximenez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm also against it because of the stress it puts on us, in the game (I find it difficult enough to care for my glitches energy level as it is now, to be honest), and, moreover, in the meantime in real life, as many others already stated.

    Isn't it a really great idea to let food get better with time, as Ximenez suggested a few minutes before? That wouldn't stress us so much, but therefore we would have to arrange our storage very clever, if we'd like to gain more energy from the things we collected...

    In any case I'm strictly against any effects that occur while we're offline!!!
    Posted 17 months ago by Kuki, very sad. Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Read 3/4 of the replies so far, and didn't read the document, but from the replies I get an idea. Will read more later, but don't have a lot of time now.
    Feedback and ideas:

    - I like the idea of degradation
    - For newbies it would be hard. I'd suggest make stuff from a certain energy level degradable, and from raw materials make everything except cherries, meat and grain degradable. Characters from around lvl 15 and up should be worrying about the freshness of food and drinks. I doubt it can be linked to characterlevel, that's why I thought of energy/mood gain level.
    - Prices for cooked food would go up as it won't be massproduced anymore.
    - It will be put in a fridge at the auction house ofcourse. Auction fee would be higher though.
    - portable coolerbag needed
    - Other professions should become a bit harder too. Difficult thing is, minin gives ore, and ore is a raw product which in itself is very complete allready. It is not comparable with raw vegetables or grain. Make raw ore less worth (donating, selling) and raise the value of the end product (bars) so it actually is rewarding to process the ore first.

    People worrying that it is like RL: isn't gathering currants and energy like real life too? I wouldn't mind banks/deposits. Helps people without a house. If you put your items in the fridge/freezer you don't HAVE to log in to check. You don't leave stuff lying on the streets (in Glitch) and expect it to be there when you get back either, this is just another step to keep things challenging.

    - Put a huge public cooling cell somewhere, like community gardens. Only here food can be stored (and taken by anyone.)
    Posted 17 months ago by Miriamele Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Tarod! I think so,e things. like booze and cheese should improve (things that get better with time in the real world) other things like pickles, butter, sauces shouldn't be affected and things like sandwiches, veggies etc, should get worse.

    However in the getting worse part, I don't think the energy should go down... a rotten banana has just as much energy in it as a fresh banana, but it should affect your mood (who really feels better after eating some rotton food?)
    Posted 17 months ago by Centaurea Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Im buzy enough learning, exploring, creating and not duying, to worry about the fridges and stuff would be too much.
    Posted 17 months ago by Helvetika Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Chiming in with those who don't want Glitch to be Farmville. I've always avoided games that punish you for not logging in often enough, or games with monthly subscriptions such that I'd have to play a certain amount in a month to get my money's worth. Coming back to an inventory full of rot is a disincentive to play.

    I also agree that the freshness/rotting factor is a disincentive to explore. Which is to say, +1 Pomegrandy's comment about choosing not to go through the magic door. At the very least, a change like this that would otherwise keep us on a short tether to our home refrigerators should come with a reduced cost for teleportation, I'd hope.

    I didn't actually spot the sarcasm in "One day you will be all alone." It sounded genuinely like something I'd hear in Glitch! Glitch in-game messages are quirky, wacky, weird, bizarre, and sometimes disturbing -- like that.

    And I can't -1 enough napabeth's snark about "coddling new players" and "people need to be tough." This is a game, not boot camp! To heck with this strawman of "coddling" -- the problem is if a change makes the game not fun. And for new players, "fun" comes at a lower level of challenge than for experienced, "skilled" players. Does that really need explaining?

    Anyway, if it's not *fun* enough for new players, there won't be new players. If it's not *fun* enough for existing players, players will leave. I suppose there's some warm superior smug satisfaction to be had in wandering around a deserted landscape reflecting on how you're so much "tougher" and how you stuck it out unlike those wimps and that's how life works and too bad those crybabies couldn't handle it... but, y'know, if that were what Glitch was about, I don't think so many of us would love it so dearly.
    Posted 17 months ago by Vortexae Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ooh, I like the idea of food getting better over time. Short term sacrifices for long term benefits is a huge part of many long-term games.
    Posted 17 months ago by Vortexae Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 for bringing this to players.  I *love* that we get to see a glimpse behind the scenes and that we have a chance to provide input, whether you use it or not.  Thanks, stoot!

    I have to admit, that when I read this topic, my first reaction was unhappiness.  As only a few others have said above, I do not want to be tied into having to come back to a game in order to make sure that whatever I have in my inventory hasn't spoiled.  This is especially true when it comes to cherries, since they are going for ridiculous prices on auction (given their non-scarcity), which means that the hour or so I want to spend playing on any given day now need to go to cherry collection. That compels me to want to gather more than I need in any given hour so that the next time I play, I don't need to worry about it.  With rotting, now I will.

    I'm also concerned, as others have expressed, that this further penalizes gardening as a viable track to go down, except for those who just want to play a farmville-style game.

    Reading the actual proposal brought more unhappiness as I realized how much time must have gone into drafting it.  Why unhappiness?  Because from a player's POV here, there are actually other issues with the game that I'd rather see solved than the one this one is trying to solve.  Of course, the assumption there may be very bad on my part, since we have no way of knowing what else you're working on, so I tried to really open my mind to this idea and give TS the benefit of the doubt.

    The stuff at the very bottom of the proposal gave me some relief:

    The fundamental intention behind this proposal is to make food and energy management a more interesting part of the game. This change should:make the cooking skills more valuable (since cooking/processing increases quality/freshness, giving an energy bonus)require that food resources move more quickly through the ecosystemcreate an opportunity to make better versions of existing tools and potentially interesting upgrade pathscreate a need for upgraded storagecreate a larger possibility space of strategies where players can make interesting decisions about foodgive a rationale for a new fundamental resource (powerberries)give new life (and more longevity) to existing items by making them less same old, same old

    (sorry, formatting got hosed on the copy/paste and I can't edit the above field to insert line breaks)

    All of this good, very good, +1, these are problems the game has which do need to be solved.

    So, given the goals of the proposal and the way it all stands now to achieve those goals, I'd be willing to try this on for size with one suggestion: increase *all* the decay times at least 3x.

    The current decay times work just fine for players who are logged into the game at least 8 hours a day (or the sycophants or boot campists among us).  Many of us during beta (and alpha) spend tons of hours in-game when it's open, precisely because this is the only time that it is open.  I predict this will not always be the case for the majority of players.

    I've always thought the testing periods as they have stood skews all the decay rates in game (as well as your playing stats on us), because this isn't realistic. I'm one of those players who has spent some embarrassingly high number of hours playing Glitch, but I know, I have always known in the back of my mind, that when the game launches and is available 24/7, that I won't be playing it as many hours as I have.  I really just want to be able to play a couple of hours a day, maybe not even playing for a few days at a time.  

    With the proposed decay rates, I either need a fridge right away or I need to spend most of my time when I first log in running around collecting resources (this will drive me away from the game, due to the repetition just to be able to do something interesting).  Or I'll need to give up on making my own food and instead rely on the auctions, which will likely result in much higher auction prices for food.

    If the decay rates were slowed down about 3x times, then this might actually balance itself out.

    Then again, it'd be good to test this with the game open 24/7 for a solid 14-21 days for one test, just to see my actual playtime when the game is available all the time and to see how the decay impacts my play.
    Posted 17 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ok, without even reading through all the details or the comments i know my answer:

    I LOVE IT!  the idea of adding more complexity to glitch is perfect. all this time i've been whinging: "more quests, more quests," but this is a gorgeous, in game answer. more layers of complexity to make me *think before each action.

    it also has a beautiful level of possibility for cooperation, which i've recently made clear is my favorite thing, even before sliced bread (but yes, slightly after chocolate), as let's say i'm a gardener and my favorite thing to do is stand in front of my plots and lovingly place guano and water on them at the appropriately timed intervals. it might make it more complicated for me to prepare smoothies or earthshakers.  well, enter my partner in glitching- a cook! we could work together to make the game work better and More Fun!

    my only concern: i think going offline should really have a "pause" option, or really just be a "pause." this could also include a sort of correlary negative, such as also pausing learning. but penalizing me for, you know, going to work or sleep by rotting my vegetables or fruits or cooking seems just ... mean! i gotta pay the wireless bills!

    but otherwise, this kind of thing is great, and will keep glitch fun, and require thinking. i like to think!
    Posted 17 months ago by greenkozi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Gut-instinctively - I really really dislike this idea. So very micromanage-y. I'm already on the edge of being frustrated by the amount of time I have to spend cooking & eating and this seems as though it would throw me over that line. 

    When I play games with consumables and various activities, I like to spend extended periods of time focused on various aspects rather than just spending a bit of time on everything. So I'll spend a chunk of time gathering all the basic resources I'll need for a cycle or two. Then I'll spend time creating enough upgraded consumables to last a nice long while (perhaps a week, possibly longer, but at least a couple of days) so that I don't have to worry about that aspect and can focus on my other goals (whether they're creative, social, or personal - such as leveling, skill-building, etc). This change would penalize that style of play and force me to consistently and regularly stop what I want to do in order to cook or buy a quick meal. 

    I also really, really dislike the idea that if I can't log in for 3 days, I'll return to a bunch of rotten food in my bag. I have a feeling that I'd quickly amass a number of bags filled with rotten food. That does not seem like a pleasant experience.
    Posted 17 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I general I love the idea because I do think it would make the game more dynamic and encourage more sale/trade between players. Most of my thoughts have been expressed by others.

    My concerns:

    - I am assuming times are given in Real World Hours vs Game Hours. Am I right? (This is something that has become more and more confusing... What "time frame" descriptions and rules refer to.)

    - Auctions: Would have to get a lot more complicated. A stack in auction would have to list it's freshness. And would ideally need the ability to "sort" not only by freshness but freshness AND price. And the choice would have to be made at what rate things decay in auction. If we consider things "in the fridge" while in auction, that would be only 2.4 freshness points so not a big deal. 

    - Powerberries is an awful name (unless they have many other uses and you are purposely being vague). Be directing: FresheningBerries or something.

    - Combining stacks and averaging rottenness: My concern is making it SUPER clear what is about to happen when you comine stacks so there aren't many "Oh! Damn it! I just ruined a perfectly good stack by placing something spoiled in it!" An alert "Do you want to..." might work but that is adding another click and removing a lot of the smooth play.

    - Off-line: This (like many before me) bothers me the most. Removes a ton of the casual gameplay aspect. Even with a fridge, if I'm off for a week, everything is now down by 20% (at the stated rates. (Oh, wait the is from Fresh to Rotten, not Maxfresh to Rotten. Still.) This concerns me for creating a "Oh shit! I have to get onto Glitch to monitor stuff!" vibe. I much prefer the "Oh shit! I have to get onto Glitch because I want to play!" It might just change gameplay and turn it into something new... but I have a hard time predicting how it would change without experiencing it.

    - As to mining: It DOES affect miners in that it makes it so that they can't stockpile food as easily. This is slightly tangental, but until at least gem prices are affected by price fluctuation due to demand, miners are always going to have an advantage. If hundreds of diamond are being sold to vendors within a certain time frame, vendor prices for diamonds should go down. (This has long been my though on how to make mining more dynamic.)

    - Add in a food storage "bag": An ice chest or something, along the lines as a tool box. Operates under the same rules as a fridge (or something). One, this would be great for organizing inventory. Two, give another option to make the impact of spoiling more in the players control.

    Again, I am pro this. It is a dramatic change. I like changes that make things more dynamic. I am just unsure how it will change HOW I play.

    (Thanks for sharing. I love thinking about these things.)
    Posted 17 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really like parts of the idea and just have one suggestion; would it not be more viable if food freshness only applies to food that has been made through a frying pan, knife & board, saucepan and pot. Or if not possible, basic foods (such as fruits, meats and allspice) degrade in a much slower pace (hopefully months?).

    I also completely agree with Faereluth
    Posted 17 months ago by Aorta Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not liking the sound of this.

    If you added this 'feature' to the new gardening 'upgrades' I could seriously spend the entire game sitting in my house micromanaging crops and the food I create from them.
    Posted 17 months ago by Vicereine Linnæa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, I have had something fun to do this morning in reading this whole thread, at the request of a friend, and considering the angles. Knowing my propensity for long-windedness...just fair warning, there's no way I can respond briefly to this one:) 

    First and foremost, thank you x1,000 stoot for giving us this kind of opportunity to see ideas, the thought behind them and then be able to provide feedback ahead of time. My main thought on this is: more please, your captainness! :D

    ~I pretty much think Faereluth has had the best points so far. Her response totally resonated with me in every way. 

    ~I am, however, completely interested in testing this out (maybe with some of the player-suggested tweaks, maybe not) to see how it would work before it was a definite addition to the game. Even after the 24/7 launch, I hope and imagine things may continue to be tested and tweaked, added and removed, because I don't see you guys just going "Oh, we're done" at launch :). If we did test it out, I really, really love KittenKat's idea: "I think the concern for new players is definitely a valid one.  What about if food freshness/spoilage only came into play after learning a certain skillset, "Culinary Connoisseur" or something like that.  The skillset would allow you to harvest super fresh items (and thus get extra benefits from food you harvest) but also would result in items spoiling.  This way, new players don't have to worry about food spoiling, but more advanced players can decide to make it a part of their gameplay and receive the benefits of super fresh foods and perhaps other bonuses.  Paired with cooking skills, players with this skill could make "fresher" versions of various recipes which provide more nourishment and perhaps some mood boosts." Fantastic, marvelous idea.

    ~Another idea presented here that appeals to me in every way is from Mina: "If food quality is decreased over time let it not be a punishment but an opportunity to have even more fun!" and then echoed by others. Making the rotting food do interesting and Glitchy things would really, really add a fun, totally non-real-life dimension to the game. Then your decisions would be more like, "Okay, I can eat this food now for energy...but if I wait, I can grow mushrooms from it, or it can turn into something insanely crazy, or it can have really wacky effects on the (let's say) color of my pigs...or be like "purple junk" or be a really interesting addition to certain higher-level potions" (since we have been told potionmaking is coming). Because my main concern with this whole idea is like others': TOO REAL LIFE. Also, way too Farmville and punishment oriented. But IF the rotten food gave you more, rather than less, interesting possibilities, then time spent away from game would provide a bit of a bonus. Not that I think you want people to spend time away, but as much as we all love Glitch, of course real life will intrude, and this would be an interesting bone to throw to those who are unable to play for a while. And I don't think this would negate the fun of fridges because, here's a thought: Maybe the rotten food does become inedible or have weird negative buffs, although you could do other truly intriguing things with it (as I noted here), but then of course you'd want your fridge to keep your food you intend to eat as fresh as possible. This way the only really boring thing about food decay might be the middle range LOL.

    ~I definitely think that if this happens, similar things need to happen to the other game resources because this really does damp down the cooking/farming side of the game for those who enjoy that the most. Of course in real life, I know rocks and ore DO last longer than food, but here's a thought: Miners get all kinds of lung and health issues. While I wouldn't want Glitch to be too real life, as I said, if this idea goes forward about the rotting food, then what about some kind of either heightened mood loss while deep in the mines or some kind of debuff while mining that grows stronger the longer you keep mining? (The latter would address the mining that takes place in sunny areas like the Heights.)

    ~Anyone else see the tiny little mention of Soil Appreciaton VII, not to mention hints of other skills to come? Got all deliriously excited by more skills:)

    ~The name "powerberries" definitely sucks, sorry:), have to agree with the others. Love the idea of Tiiberries, though since Spriggan is the tree giant, how about Sprigberries? Sprigganerries? 

    ~Finally, on the whole powerberries in Ix only issue and the spice/gas issues brought up: For the love of the giants, devs go read and players go add your thoughts and such to this forum thread: Bring back the spice trees to Groddle Forest and another tree balancing idea. I admit that thread is mine, but well, I'm pretty passionate about the issue and thought I and some others had good ideas in that one. :D

    Please let us do some of this super back and forth on the ideas. Again, that's the most wonderful bit here!
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with the others about spoilage while game is off.  Perhaps providing a way to set the time while off-game, ie. 
    1. Leave as is
    2. Turn Time Off (nothing spoils, but you also can't learn anything), 
    3. or/and 1/2 time (doubles the time it takes from fresh to rotten to 62d 12h if in fridge).

    It will change the way people play the game, but that, I think, is not a bad thing.  I worry about having to pop back home, every time I need to make food.  I'll be the one who puts everything in the fridge/freezer!!  :-)  Waste not want not - it's in my DNA.
    Posted 17 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Please spend your precious development time on making the game more open and fun, versus more restrictive and 'real' (not fun).

    Micro-managing XP =/= fun

    I always envisioned a laundry list of super cool features hanging on a wall somewhere, with time being the limiting factor. I hate the idea that this type of change will come at the expense of one or more of those cool new things.

    Please release the cool features before the uncool/marginal features.

    I'd also like to see the other dozen specs :)
    Posted 17 months ago by Joe Blow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There isn't enough time to read all the replies above, so here's my tuppeneth worth. Not happy with this idea. I go on holiday for a couple of weeks or am ill, lose internet connection, pc dies, any number of reasons... and a lot of hard Glitch-work can be lost. I want to play on a casual basis, not on a check-my watch because my "myFarm" cabbages will rot if I don't harvest in 2 hours.
    And it's getting too much like real life. Where's the escapism? I have real crops which often get neglected because I'm playing Glitch. I just don't like it. sorry.
    Posted 17 months ago by snygyst Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A cool idea. In fact, very intuitive too. when I first cooked stuff I had thought automatically that it would go bad. and was surprised when it didnt.
    Posted 17 months ago by Sublimie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm cautiously in favour of the idea, subject to many of the same reservations expressed above.

    1.  We should have fridges that will lessen or prevent the decay
    2.  We should be able to stop the process when offline
    3.  We should be able to use decaying/spoiled fruit for compost to feed our veggie patches
    4.  I like Nanookie's idea that cherries, as a kind of "ur" (wow - how appropriate) fruit, should be exempt.

    What about meat?
    Posted 17 months ago by Tradescantia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with all the other concerns posted here. I specially worry, like others, about food decaying while you're offline. This wouldn't affect that much the people that can play daily, but for some of us (like those that work/have families/study), playing is limited to certain days. So It would really be bad to come back every weekend and find all your food spoiled.

    Could you add a cap to that? Say it will rot at a slower rate while offline but for no longer than 12-24 hours? So, you come back and your food is slightly more rotten, but not completely spoilt and unusable. Also, the increased time for veggies/fruit to grow vs the rotting would make harvesting/making food very very very hard.

    If there's to be a compost item/skill, for spoilt food, will this then be used to significantly speed up the growth of fruits/veggies? Because then, posibly loosing large stacks of food would not be completely devasting to a player.

    And on keeping with the realism, pigs in real life will eat most anything, including rotten food. Will pigs be able to consume your rotten items and still produce seeds?

    Like others commented, I like the relaxed game play of Glitch, which I think is the intention. Addiding this would make it so much more stressful.
    Posted 17 months ago by Joy La Maru Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you Stoot for sharing this concept with us.

    I think it could be an interesting idea, but I agree with the concerns posted earlier about micromanagement / having to constantly check the game to prevent your food from rotting. I would not want Glitch to become another Farmville :(
    Posted 17 months ago by Varaeth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think what you might be missing, Joe Blow, is the fact that restrictions are *necessary* for something to be fun and rewarding. It was several weeks back at least, but there was an interesting video posted on this forum about games and play and what makes things fun. It pointed out that if pure reward was the goal, the most fun game on the internet should be a button that you click over and over, getting 1 million points every time. Gazillions of points! No effort! Shouldn't an amazingly huge reward to effort ratio mean more fun? Obviously, it doesn't. Rules and restrictions and balance are necessary to make something interesting and, more importantly, *maintain* that interest over the long term.

    A few weeks ago I finished up all my mining, alchemy, etc skills, which was how I'd been spending most of my time in the Glitchverse up till that point. Okay, what to work on now, I said to myself, and turned my attention to food. Great! I leveled up my croppery and cooking skills, filled a bag with ingredients from the grocery vendor, etc etc. Made all the recipes that looked interesting. My main goal was to learn how to make awesome stew, and after a while of concentrated cooking, I finally hit that achievement and got the recipe. Awesome! Made a few stacks of those. And now, the challenge and interest of that has worn off and I'm left, again, looking for something new to do.  A system like this, while it seems almost punitive in a world where food keeps indefinitely and is an easily renewable resource, is really important if you want to keep interest and a level of balance in cooking.

    For people who are worried about spoilage meaning you won't be able to keep up your energy, my recommendation is to get RHK as quickly as possible. Once you've got your piggies and a few collectors, you can, if you like, subsist entirely on meat. Cooking at that point becomes a leisure activity, or something pursued out of interest and not necessity. Until you've got the RHK, nibble piggies, eat cabbages - resources are out there! Just because the game is getting a little harder doesn't mean it's getting to be less fun - just the opposite, in my opinion.

    Edit: Just an added note - one of the things in this thread I DO agree with is the objection to things spoiling while a player is offline. This is not a new objection - I have never liked the idea that my pigs may die, trees wither, etc if there's a couple weeks during which real life takes precedence over online fun. On Friday I'm going to leave for a vacation that will last more than a week, and when I get back I'm immediately - like less than 48 hours later - moving out of my apartment. It's definitely feasible that I won't be able to play for a period of two weeks. Thankfully, because we're still in beta, it probably won't be a big deal, but if the game was totally live and I had to log off, knowing that when I logged back in my animals and trees would be dead and my bags full of stinky rotten food? That would definitely not be an incentive to return quickly.

    (PS, for those of you worrying about food spoiling between tests - my understanding is that the devs generally turn "time" off during those periods. That's why your pigs don't die, etc.)
    Posted 17 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "restrictions are *necessary* for something to be fun"

    The DMV is not fun. Would you prefer a single longer line, or several more shorter lines in a maze layout?
    Posted 17 months ago by Joe Blow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Joe Blow, this system is strange & unnecessary. The last thing I need to do is worry about is my food spoiling, because I cant cook as it is. Not to mention this would also seem like a forced hook to get back on. (sure rotten doesnt occur until 36 days in the fridge, but that means 16 days until it gets weird)

    And I think what you are missing, Tally, is that the system in which food works is already rewarding. I would assume you would just put your awesome stews in a refrigerator, or, might I even suggest, if you dont like it - dont make awesome stews in excess? 

    ANd Storm Weather, this game would lose all of its pizazz if learning was turned off when you weren't online, that would mean 12 days of gameplay just to learn BA3 alone.
    Posted 17 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like cold beer,lol
    Posted 17 months ago by Jellybelly Baby Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oooh, interesting thing to find on the forums. Some of my thoughts, bullet point. 
    - not only would it  make food related skills more valuable, would gardening skills be impacted? could you up your gardening skill to make "fresher" food more easily? (I would hope, and not just in growing power berries.)
    - possibly would make houses more valuable (since the more control you have, the more access you have to gardening)
    - +1 to everyone about being able to make preserved food if this does roll out and the MRE's.
    - it would be nice to have items like Freezer Bag where we could store stuff without it decaying quite as fast: otherwise, I imagine there'd have to be a lot of traveling back and forth to your house
    - it would be nice if fruit decayed and we could have stills and make our own Hooch and Beer, just saying. 
    - also agreed about having SOMETHING to do with rotted food so that it isn't entirely useless. ...it would be hilarious if one of the giants liked it best, for example.
    - if produce vendors had a fixed point of freshness lower then what you'd get by harvesting, I don't see why this idea would remove produce vendors from the equation. rebalance, yes.
    - agreed that the current times of decay don't fit an average play style.

    I mean, overall, my thoughts are that this sounds like it turns food into an even bigger micromanagment problem set, which I'm not sure is for the better or the worse in the long run. As is, it doesn't sound like something that'd hold my interest for very long as minmaxing (which empowering freshness comes really close to, tbh) gets tiresomely grindy sometimes. If the rates of decay were tweaked, and other things refined, it could be fun.
    Posted 17 months ago by Caesura Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Aero.....I will only echo what others have stated  here....by making me have to play the game, (keeping on eye on my food freshness all the time), I will surely not play the game at all. I'm am not understanding why you would want to go down the Farmville road.
    Posted 17 months ago by Zev Bellringer Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Where does the bad food go, will we get garbage cans and garbage service?  Or do we eat like there is no tomorrow.  Will it rot while being auctioned or have a time limit, would we auction food at all ?  Can't hurt to try out this idea because if Glitchee's hate it they will sure let you know.  lol
    Posted 17 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am not sure about this idea in general. I will comment on some specifics mentioned though. 
    1) Game progression while offline is frustrating. Tally-pigs do turn to meat if you do not feed and take care of them while the game is open. I have had this happen to me twice. I would not like food to rot while I am off attending to RL. It is a game after all.
    2) Fridges as a holding place is good if this idea is put in place but I also am not sure how the auction/mail thing would work. Maybe it would be an incentive to do more trading.
    3) I enjoy gardening but not so much mining. However, I agree that each skill set should have similar buffs/rebuffs (positive/negative) things happen.
    4) I do not favor the name of Power berries but DO like the name of Tii Berries.
    5) "coddling" of newbies is tricky also. I agree that it can't be too difficult or frustrating because new players will be turned off. However, a challenge to figuring out what the game is about is what intrigued me about this game.
    So, hmm I'm not sure what conclusion anyone can draw from the above....it's really not a good day for thinking this hard.
    Posted 17 months ago by Holly Waterfall Subscriber! | Permalink
  • re: Restriction as fun

    Yes, rules can indeed allow one to have fun or to experience what Csikszentmihalyi refers to as flow. However, difficulty must be balanced such that players feel that they are having fun, and not like they're being punished as some have pointed out. 

    Will I be willing to test this out? Yes, but balancing gameplay could be a pain.
    Posted 17 months ago by Anty-pants Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here's a suggestion. It may have been proposed here already, but I'll throw it in anyways. Create a new storage item, the "Cooler". Have it come in a variety of colors like the bags and toolboxes (vanity). Several sizes (like the bags), and I'm suggestion 3 different grades for now.
    Grade 1 - Double food lifetime. 1.5/hr or 2d2h from fresh to rotten
    Grade 2 - Triple food lifetime     1/hr or 3d3h from fresh to rotten
    Grade 3 - Five times food lifetime. 3/5 per hour  or 5d5h from fresh to rotten
    Can only store degradable food items.
    This is consistent with the common practice of storing food items in their own bags, and the concept of the dedicated storage containers already in use (spice, tools, alchemy, etc).

    Other adjustments:
    When in an online player’s inventory - rate as above.
    When in an offline player’s inventory - rate reduced by 1/3
         Grade 1 - .5/hr or 6d6h from fresh to rotten.
         Grade 2 - 1/3 per hour or 9d9h from fresh to rotten.
         Grade 3 - .2 per hour or 15d15h from fresh to rotten.
    Storing the cooler on the ground - rate multiplied by 5
         Grade 1 - 7.5/hr or 10h from fresh to rotten.
         Grade 2 - 5/hr or 15h from fresh to rotten.
         Grade 3 - 3/hr or 1d1h from fresh to rotten.
    Storing the cooler in a cabinet - rate reduced by 1/3
         Grade 1 - .5/hr or 6d6h from fresh to rotten.
         Grade 2 - 1/3 per hour or 9d9h from fresh to rotten.
         Grade 3 - .2 per hour or 15d15h from fresh to rotten.
    Storing the cooler in a refrigerator (will this be possible?) rate reduced by 1/30
     These numbers might be insane, but they are based on previous information
         Grade 1 - .05/hr or 62d12h from fresh to rotten.
         Grade 2 - 1/30 per hour or 93d18h from fresh to rotten.
         Grade 3 - .02 per hour or 156d6h from fresh to rotten.

    Unlike the Zynga games, Glitch is taking into account the factor of the player being offline by reducing the deterioration by 1/3 if in normal inventory. You are able to recover the items with your own efforts and, unlike Zynga, you are able to improve the product quality via those same efforts.  There should be a vacation mode though.
    Posted 17 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • An excellent point made above (sorry, but it's all a wall of text by now) is that this would put a damper on casual play, in the sense that you'd have to spend a certain amount of time at the beginning of each session undoing the damage of the passage of time.

    So if it takes 20 minutes to collect and prepare the necessaries, that time will be shaved off each session.  If you only have 45 minutes to spare, that's a big chunk.

    The current system allows you to do whatever you're in the mood for at the time while allowing for future payback.  Or if there's something you don't much like doing, you can get a lot of it done at once, then reap the benefits in later sessions.
    Posted 17 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Holly - yep, I just mean when the game is closed between beta tests. When the game is open, gotta make sure that piggy feeder is topped off!

    @Anty - I definitely understand the need for balance. I think we saw that in the last test - gardening was changed, players complained, devs backed the changes off to a more moderate level. I just think that right now, some players - and I truly am not thinking of anyone in particular when I say this - looks at any attempt to make things more challenging as a punishment. In the end I really think that making things more challenging will lead to more sustainable and memorable gameplay. When I think back to the games I've loved most over the years, they're not the ones I beat on the first play-through.
    Posted 17 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1
    Posted 17 months ago by pinokivio Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you for thinking about putting the refrigerator into effect. Sounds like fun. Not real keen on only getting the needed berries ( don't know why "powerberries" is a bad name for some players) in lx. That is a pain for a lot of players. I love adding new elements to the game. Nobody is going to know for sure how much they are going to like it until we get to try it....kinda like a "tasters test". :) Great idea!! But, I don't like the idea of coming back to the game to bags of rotten food that I spent sooooooo much time growing and cooking if I have to leave the game in a sudden hurry and not be able to log back on for quite some time. Hopefully there can be a way to stop the clock (even if that means to stop the learning process) if we know we are going to be gone for a lengthy time. Kinda like a pause button like somebody had mentioned before. Thank you for giving us a chance to voice our opinions before putting this into effect or further thinking!!
    Posted 17 months ago by Miss Muffett Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Tally - Agreed, which is why I'm not too against the idea of testing this out. However, given that food = energy management, it does seem as if this change will have more widespread impact than gardening. I read and sympathized with players' frustration in that thread, but since I'm not an avid gardener, it did not affect me as much. I merely  tested it out later to see if the moderate level to see the impact on gameplay should I choose that route. I could be wrong in that food might not have that great of an impact, but again, only a test can tell.

    Edit: In other news, we can use this thread to test the voting system!
    Posted 17 months ago by Anty-pants Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sorry for my bad english...

    rotten food? sorry, no funny in a game with so much projects...

    but.. when food rotten, then we are getting older? Glitches we die too real? Where then is the first old-age home? we get jobs - nurses and doctors

    No good idea....
    Posted 17 months ago by Graciebk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No, too much like chores. I don't understand the reasoning here. The game should be fun, I am always worrying about the food in the refrigerator spoiling. I don't want to worry about this in a game?!! 

    I would like to hear about fun ideas. Things to do that are creative. Quests, games, exploration, please.
    Posted 17 months ago by Suzy Spring Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Which giant would imagine spoilage, anyway? I'd like to not donate to that one.
    Posted 17 months ago by Joe Blow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really REALLY like the idea of composting, just not in this way. If rotting food was done in a different/optional way (not auto food spoilage), I think it could be an interesting addition. 

    But, one of the main reasons I love Glitch is because food/crops don't rot. The game, as of now, is not a chore. It's fun, light, and refreshing from all the other "play to maintain" games.

    Anyway, my refrigerator would need to come with a freezer ;)     
    Posted 17 months ago by Sadie the Goat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 to Joe Blow
    Posted 17 months ago by Centaurea Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 to a freezer if this rotting thing comes into existence as it is now....
    Posted 17 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink