Topic

ToS breaking with keys

It is perfectly OK, as far as TS is concerned, to register a second account, send a key to your house (firebog, for example) to your first account (who's got a 50k house) and then have access to both herb and crop gardens.
Questions: Am I missing something? If not, any ideas on how to prevent this (if you consider it to be unfair, of course)?

Posted 13 months ago by Electric Wizard Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Why's it unfair?  It's not stealing. It's having 2 houses.  It's only unfair, to me, if only a small minority of people were able to do it. Since anyone can do this, what's unfair? That they've spent more money to buy another house? 
    Posted 13 months ago by Ebiler Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's called "meta-gaming". Unfortunately, no MMO is immune from it.
    Posted 13 months ago by Wayfarer Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, isn't it possible to buy 30 50k houses and collect 10k meat in a run? In about ten days you get the money invested back and then start making amazing profit, if this is OK with TS I'm definitely doing it, but I have to say I personally don't consider it OK.
    Posted 13 months ago by Electric Wizard Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nothing unfair about it,people who choose to play that way are in no way harming anyone,as long as there are enough of each type of home,which there are,and you're not playing both at the same time; in fact it is way better to go that way than to simply nick herbs and crops you didn't plant,fertilise,and tend from community gardens!
    Posted 13 months ago by ~Scilly~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The Community Guideline restriction is that you can only be online with one Glitch at a time:
     "Multiple accounts controlled by one person playing at the same time is not allowed."
    Posted 13 months ago by BarryW Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The Community Guidelines also restrict you from having a mule account that gives your main account a significant or unfair advantage.

    Using bots, mules, or other hacks to gain significant and unfair advantage in the game is not allowed.
    Posted 13 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Let's hope TS fixes the crop garden/herb garden issue with the housing updates.  Until then, they just created tremendous incentive to run two accounts with the new herb skills.
    Posted 13 months ago by Lucille Ball Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Every time I've asked live help about this question I have been told that having multiple characters with homes and sharing keys is fine as long as you aren't online with more than one character at the same time. 

    I wouldn't be surprised if TS changed their mind about this at a later date using the "signifigant and unfair advantage" language that WindBorn just mentioned, but as of now, the behavior Bender described is not breaking any rules.

    Honestly, this was the first thought I had when the new key feature was released, and I am surprised that it has taken this long to become an issue for people.  I don't think that TS's intent was to encourage alts and house-sharing, but I believe keys inadvertently did just that.
    Posted 13 months ago by Knitomaton Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Knitomaton: "but as of now, the behavior Bender described is not breaking any rules."

    "The code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules." - Jack Sparrow 
    Posted 13 months ago by BarryW Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ BarryW  I believe that was actually Cpt. Barbossa. ;-)  But aye, the comparison be a true one.

    Here's my thinking.  How is this quantifiably different from having one account, and simply teleporting yourself back and forth from community gardens?

    1.  You have a dedicated, secure spot, that you don't have to share with anyone. 
    2.  You have extra space to store your stuff (arguable, since "space" is at no actual premium in the game).

    So, the only REAL difference is that you can have a dedicated, instead of shared resource, that you have to pay several thousand currants for and requires you to organize a second account.  In terms of fairness, you are spending a ton of in-game currency for a perk, and you still have to spend the time to lean the skills to use that perk. 

    Not sure that it qualifies as "significant and unfair" hack, given that Alt Accounts have always been allowed and I'm sure that people were figuring out ways of transferring goods from one account to another anyway. 

    Anyways, that's my 2 currants.  Interesting discussion.
    Posted 13 months ago by Grem Sketch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Grem Sketch: I sit corrected.
    Posted 13 months ago by BarryW Subscriber! | Permalink
  • From my experience making mules for the purpose of housing (don't worry, I bought the cheap houses no one really wants in areas that aren't as simple to get to as others, not the 30k/50k houses, that's just a dick move), the time spent coordinating everything and keeping track of everything along with the actual cost of the houses is enough to balance the fact that you simply get some dedicated crop/herb plots and tree patches.

    I believe that "significant and unfair" more falls under using alts to manipulate the market to make certain prices look more appealing (be the only seller for an item, have alts post some for high prices, then severely undercut the items on your main), using alts to get the skills you don't yet have on your main (having your main focus on something other than animals, and use your alts to get the animal skills) and along with that, using alts to bypass the once per day restriction (have 4 or 5 alts each with a house with animals, and all of them harvest from those animals), or using alts to outbid people on expensive items you're selling because you want to up the price. All of these examples show clear abuse of alts to give a significant advantage to the main player.

    The bonuses from houses is minimal, and unless you also use your alts to harvest for your main, you wont get much more of a benefit out of it than if someone else bought the house.
    Posted 13 months ago by Jurkowski Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's a good question.  I am not sure how having different skills is considered an unfair advantage, since that is what alts usually are.  You get bored with one set of skills so you create an alt with a different set of skills; pretty common in MMOs.  Besides, in a game where it is possible to get all the skills on one character, it stops mattering eventually.
    I have a second character that owns a bog house and has been growing and collecting herbs for a while now.  But I will use that character for doing the tincturing and potion making.  I don't see anything wrong with that.
    Posted 13 months ago by Shootsin Latters Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I dislike the use of the word "mule".  Mules are awesome animals. You can work a horse to death, but a mule will flip you the bird and make you treat it right. Some of the smartest people I've known are mules. A mule would never let you use it this way. 

    ;>
    Posted 13 months ago by Tibbi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i'm puzzled by how people refer to 'unfair advantages' as though this were a game that anybody could 'win'...
    Posted 13 months ago by BeatFreq Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A lot of the MMO's I've played actually have alt chars built right into the game engine.
    One I remember had 5-6 chars per account per server out of about 7-8 servers and that was part of how the game was setup.  Granted the skill tree was setup different that you would only be excellent in one of the three branches but could learn the other 2 so having alts made a difference in their game play.

    At this point I'm glad I don't have 2 glitches because moving one when the new houses come out is going to be a headache enough!!!!!
    Posted 13 months ago by BlackWolf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't see how just having an alt can be considered an unfair advantage in and of itself, anyway. There's nothing stopping anybody from having alts, so it can't be "unfair" that other people do.
    Posted 13 months ago by HeyHeyHolly Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Would it break the ToS if the herb house was someplace you only used for herbs and used only really by your main?  I mean, I really hope they add the option for herb plots with the housing revamp, but it time...lots of time to get to where an alt can buy a house, no?
    Posted 13 months ago by Rodger Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ok ok, its not unfair, Because, if you have a friend, they can give you a key to there house to use, it happens all the time, so having a mule is EXACTLY the same thing. everything that is allowed to be done with a mule is allowed to be done with a friend. While if you were playing at the same time and mining with yourself thats an unfair advantage, or using the TP's for the day, or earning badges because of playing with two characters is an unfair advantage. playing two separate accounts, at different times is fine, because your one player. no real advantage/disadvantage is made with two accounts.
    Posted 13 months ago by blackwidow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To be a devil's advocate, you could argue that there *is* an advantage to making alts with houses and sharing keys.  

    If I make 10 alts and get them set up with 50k houses each with 25 piggies and 15 butterflies and a bunch of meat/milk collectors, I could do the rounds once a day with my primary character and net 50,000c a day pure profit by selling to a Tool Vendor. 

    If I made sure that all of the houses were on the same street, I could do that without having to walk far or teleport.  If I want to harvest crops, that's an additional 320 plots of crops I can harvest per visit.

    I understand that it would be nigh on impossible for TS to police this and that the mechanics for sharing keys with friends and alts are the same. However, I wouldn't assume that sharing a key with a friend would mean that I would always get all of the benefits from their house and they would never get those benefits themselves.
    Posted 13 months ago by Knitomaton Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No, because with the key system, you could get a key from all your neighbors in your 50k housing street and do the EXACT same thing :P
    Posted 13 months ago by blackwidow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As long as its one person per person-hour of play, I don't see any problem with key-exchanging alts. They can't do twice the work of any other one player. The sensible one-alt-in-game-at-a-time rule covers all that.
    Posted 13 months ago by Fluxan Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  blackwidow - I think we're talking past each other. I understand that you could exchange keys with all of your neighbors. I'm saying it's highly unlikely that all of your neighbors would volunteer to give you all of their meat and milk and crops for free.

    I'm also not saying that I think it's "against the rules." (See my comments earlier in the thread.) I'm just saying I can see why one could argue that it is an advantage, and why TS could change their stance.
    Posted 13 months ago by Knitomaton Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Creating alts and exchanging keys with them to diversify the gardens at your disposal, while clever and resourceful, is not actually ok. The key to muling, botting, and alts is to make sure you're not giving yourself an advantage over those who play with only one character.
    Posted 13 months ago by Blanky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Creating alts and exchanging keys with them to diversify the gardens at your disposal, while clever and resourceful, is not actually ok. 

    Thanks for clarifying that, Blanky.
    Posted 13 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Blanky.... OK... I suspect that the majority of players are doing exactly that right now. How is TS going to prevent this? 
    Posted 13 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How is it ever even possible not to have an advantage over people who play with only one character when having multiple characters?  What is a specific example of what is allowed?  It seems that anything at all could be conceived as 'giving an advantage.'

    It needs a lot more clarification.
    Posted 13 months ago by Razzal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I could do the rounds once a day with my primary character and net 50,000c a day pure profit by selling to a Tool Vendor.

    Except that your "pure profit" exists only as electrons in a database and pixels on a screen ... what can you DO with it in-game? You can't cash out into RL money, you can't use it to pay subscription, so it's just sitting there.
    Posted 13 months ago by Tsu Dho Nimh Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  Blanky -- can you guys please be more specific and make a new post with a sticky so as to surface the conversation for people not reading this thread? Right now it's kind of buried.
    Posted 13 months ago by Knitomaton Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Razzalle 

    If I have two characters that don't interact (don't send each other resources or currants, don't share housing), then it's quite easy to not have an advantage.

    It's only when I start using both characters to help each other out that it is unfair.  

    If you say, "then what's the point of having a second character", then you've made the point:  There is no "point" to having a 2nd character except to have a different kind of fun.  If there's a point to it, so that your first character is somehow better off, then your 2nd character is giving your 1st character an advantage.
    Posted 13 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Creating alts and exchanging keys with them to diversify the gardens at your disposal, while clever and resourceful, is not actually ok.

    Okay, I had thought as long as each character had their own skills and did their own work, house access with the keys did not create an issue. Thanks for clarifying :)
    Posted 13 months ago by Wrenlet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I will put together a post in the near future clarifying this for everyone, but I'd say WindBorn has the right idea of it. 
    Posted 13 months ago by Blanky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • WindBorn: but it is you, one player, manipulating the two characters.  Exploring the world with both instead of just one.  Learning the skill-associated recipies twice as fast since you can load each character up with different skill sets.  There are a lot of 'spoilers' inherent in learning everything about the skill tree twice as fast.  Having two characters means learning the 'secrets' behind all the skills potentially twice as fast.

    Anything that gives us, the real human players further insights into the game translates into being an advantage for all the characters we play.  It simply isn't possible for there not to be a significant advantage no matter how the multiple characters do or don't interact with each other.

    And really I want to hear what the staff has to say, we can all beat our drums about what we think.  That doesn't really matter.

    Furthermore: imposing these new rules means the staff is going to have to design metrics and tools to detect 'cheating' and establish an enforcement mechanism.  I am personally not interested in having more than one account.  Other people can and will want to.  So the staff will unfortunately have to become cops, if these are going to be the rules.

    I'd rather, personally, they just focused on making the game more fun.  And playing cop is no fun.  I have never gotten the idea that the game's staff wants to have to do that, though there appear to be players here in the game who enjoy the idea.
    Posted 13 months ago by Razzal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree that this is extremely important news and should be placed in a separate, stickied thread for all to see. (Based on what Blanky said, this has now become a bannable offense!) First the rules have to be clarified much better, though. If it is unfair for alternate accounts to share gardens, it must also be unfair for them to share any sort of resources whatsoever (otherwise the rules are inconsistent).  I don't see how sharing gardens with an alternate is any more of a significant advantage then sharing meat from meat collectors. Thus, I believe that if this policy on gardens holds, an announcement should go out that alternate accounts are not allowed to interact with one another in any shape or form.
    Posted 13 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, I had played them up completely separately, until the devs gave everyone the house key ability. The point of having a second character for me is to do something different: different skills, different areas of Ur, different experiences. I've got a potion-making Engineer on the one hand, and a Rook-fighting cook on the other :) S'fun!
    Posted 13 months ago by Wrenlet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks, Blanky! I totally understand what WindBorn is saying and think that it's mostly common sense, but you know what they say about common sense being uncommon!
    Posted 13 months ago by Knitomaton Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Will you be clarifying how this will be enforced, and what sort of notice will be provided to any players who misunderstood the original statements, so they don't lose the time, effort, and cash they put into maintaining two segregated accounts?
    Posted 13 months ago by Eleanor Rigby Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Razelle:  did you see Blanky's post just above yours?
    Posted 13 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When in doubt, follow the money!
    Posted 13 months ago by Wayfarer Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So tell me...If sharing resources with your alt is not ok, then sharing resources with your friends and family (who btw, are more than likely going to be online @ the same time as you are) isn't ok either? I mean ... what's fair is fair - right!?
    And, no...I only use my keys for helping each other move or taking care of the others' critters/trees when I'm enjoying an account too much to sign out and jump to the next one - but still...
    Posted 13 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • WindBorn: did you notice that Blanky's posts says 'more to come'?  I don't think the staff wants to become a police force.  'Everybody just play nice' only works in Kindergarten.  This is a big virtual world.  I hope you don't think you have it all figured out.  I am sure nobody has it all figured out.
    Posted 13 months ago by Razzal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't understand how or why it would be unfair for two people to co-operate.  Many couples have only one computer between them, are they not allowed a character each?  Are those characters not allowed to co-operate?

    How would that be "unfair," and what is the difference  between that situation and the same two characters operated by just one person? 

    How can anyone tell the difference?
    Posted 13 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Blanky, I hope there will be some serious communication among staff before an actual policy is released, as other staff members have been directly contradicting this since keys were released, and many of us were very direct/explicit with our questions.  We were told over and over that essentially, as long as the accounts weren't played at the same time, it was fine.
    Posted 13 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have to agree with several here. We have seen many posts today with one player offering to buy a bog house for someone in order to share the garden. How is that any different than sharing with an alt? 

    I see no difference at all here. Two glitches helping one another in this way. 

    But according to Blanky it is wrong? Where is the difference, and what am I missing?
    Posted 13 months ago by DragonBlack Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Curious to see where this goes for sure.
    Posted 13 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Razzalle, you hadn't seemed to have noticed that Blanky had already said she would provide the information you were requesting.  

    Apparently they have decided that they are willing to take on the necessary burden of enforcing their rules. 
    Posted 13 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Further to some points above.  How can this game be "fair"?  Some players have far more time and far better computers and internet connections.  This gives them an advantage.

    This is called real life.  It is not fair.  Are you going to restrict all players to the playing time which is all some people can manage?  I have to work and can't play all the time, other people can play more.  This is "ufair" what is going to be done about it?

    Having two characters means a player cannot spend so much time on either, giving single character players an advantage on levelling-up, skill-learning, leaderboards etc.  This is "unfair".  

    The game should be played as one wishes, it cannot be "fair" in every way. 
    Posted 13 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Isn't this all kind of irrelevant given the housing changes coming up?

    I made an alt to get access to a herb garden after the beta was reintroduced on the strength of the housing changes announced, decided it wasn't worth clearing everything out of one house to try out the new skills if i'll need to do it again soon.  I, like many other heard it had been deemed ok by staff if the players weren't on at the same time...

    I'll quit using the herb garden if its a bad thing, but not sure I can be bothered moving everything, so, since I've already leveled, doing the new badges is pretty much all I can achieve by playing... without that side to try out I guess I'll be back when the housing is sorted or at relaunch.
    Posted 13 months ago by Nobbin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nobbinobody: I think people just don't want to be breaking the rules / get in to trouble / get banned before those changes come out :-(
    Posted 13 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Cass.  Hard to make any game fair, really.  I have "issues" and am on disability, so I play this game all day.  Is that unfair for the people who actually have to get out and work?
    Posted 13 months ago by Serra Subscriber! | Permalink
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