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### Topic

#### Anybody want to buy an Emblem of Lem?

I know it can't be auctioned, but if you're trying to get an icon I can trade it to you.
Also, is 20,000 Currants a fair price?
I dunno, I'm new, but I heard these things are sought after.

Posted 14 months ago by Maurice de Saxe | Permalink

### Replies

- If you're that new, then you probably only needed donations between 3500 and 10,000 currants to get that emblem. Most of us just swap our emblems around. Once you've earned them, no matter how much favor it took to get them, they're only worth 1000 favor.
  You're much more likely to find someone who will do a 1 for 1 swap with you for an emblem you still need.
  Posted 14 months ago by WindBorn | Permalink
- I'm really just studying market forces here. I don't honestly care about Emblems or Icons yet.
  I saw there were some proto-banks, but I'm curious about different competing market functions and how they affect virtual worlds.
  11,000 currants to get my second one, but each additional would also be more expensive, hence the premium.
  Technically real cost to me would be 10K (cost of first emblem)+12K (additional one thousand currants donated 12 times to get icon + Once to spend to unlock BL3) = 22K. Doesn't matter how many I have up until I hit a dozen, after that my real cost would go up 1K per emblem sold...
  Interesting to see they're that undervalued. Probably because currants come easier in later levels, so less concern for future costs. Thoughts?
  I'm always interested in game economics, it's kind of my thing IRL too.
  I kinda wanna set up an exchange service, currants to dollars and back... I've actually been looking into funding a startup that would fund an exchange of virtual currencies. But again, like I said, econ is my thing. :)
  Posted 14 months ago by Maurice de Saxe | Permalink
- Technical cost to you for first emblem is ~3300 c plus the going rate for one use of EHSP.
  And, just so you don't spend too much time: it's against the TOS to exchange currants for RL money.
  This game is designed to be a potlatch culture, where you gain badges, xp, and cred for giving things away. Many people underprice items in order to facilitate that culture.
  Posted 14 months ago by WindBorn | Permalink
- I got a Emblem JUST now. But I don't think the Emblem is worth 20,000 Currents.
  Posted 14 months ago by TacosBeFriends | Permalink
- Well, within The Hendarchy I've seen emblems being sold to other members for 4,000 Currants, but more often than not we just exchange emblems since we know we're all working to get the icons of our "church".
  — Mal'akh, Primate of Lem, Primus Inter Pares of the Orthodox Church of the Giants of Ur,Hubby of Aranna, Shriner of Mullangi Meda
  Posted 14 months ago by Mal'akh | Permalink
- @Wind, I really don't care about the TOS.
  I'm more interested in how people view the exchanges than actually facilitating them.
  For example, the strategy guide (http://www.glitch-strategy.com/wiki/Glitch_Wiki) says that favor converts at 10% of the price of an item, consequently a first emblem "costs" $10K up front and $12K in deferred costs, all energy use aside. Even if you take into account EHSP, the value of EHSP is clearly the difference between the two costs which means economically the cost of EHSP should be $6700.
  That being said, the consensus here seems to be that they're generally selling for around $4K, which to me indicates that there's an intrinsic value to the act of obtaining the emblem of roughly $18K (all prices given in currants, BTW), or a discounted expected cost for future earnings based on increased earning potential from leveling up, in that it will be easier to earn $11K tomorrow than $10K today.
  The latter is traditionally true as a standard failing in all game based economies, which is why older players can give away huge amounts that newbies can't even fathom (anecdotally a very nice player online gave me $10K before I'd even earned $3K).
  Although the community culture here certainly plays a role in it, the prevalence in online gaming communities of hierarchical societies like clans where senior members can selectively confer bonuses to novitiates indicates that that fundamental flaw in the economy is endemic to online games, and is most likely more a failing of the top down economics of feudalism than some kind of favor. After all, if you're willing to sell something to me that cost me $10K in donations for $4K, clearly it was easier for you to get than me.
  Like I said, my interests are mostly academic. I work in banking for a living, and am amused by the fact that economies are evolving in these micro-societies and quasi-cultures, and to see that they're evolving along the same historical patterns as modern finance.
  Glitch for example is about 1,000 years behind in that informal banks exist, a closed oligopoly (Tiny Speck) controls issuance of it's sole currency, and exchange is banned by "law". EVE online is slightly further ahead with more functional banking systems, and permitted, if not encouraged exchange. Closer to a 1300's Europe vs. Glitch's more akin to a 1066 England. That progress is literally staggering given that it took the real world tens of thousands of years to develop even the crudest notions of pooled lending, much less foreign exchange, security, or collateral.
  I had a debate with one of my friends today about how the obviously correct direction for all online games is to facilitate the exchange of currencies between realms, and eventually standardize on certain API features to allow the porting of "goods" between "countries". Combining this with some tools for "artisanship" and "mass production", and these societies would go through their own Renaissance and eventual Industrial Revolution. The interesting thing is that these games are evolving so quickly when compared to "real" history.
  What I think will be awesome is when the games are no longer struggling to catch up to the "real" world, but leading the development past it, like when Muhammad Yunus's social businesses begin to dominate in virtual worlds before brick and mortar, or TOS begin to function as meaningful social contracts akin to what the actual term meant to Rousseau.
  Linden Labs' Second Life is a stunning example of how encompassing a virtual world can become with good management, in that it even has products that exist solely "in game" that were designed, invented, and distributed by their players, and those players have actually profited from that invention. That being said, they're still struggling to grasp some of the basics of politics and economics, as their "laws" are still written in an objectively wrongheaded way (their "players" are governed by TOS written by owners of the company, and consequently have poor representation in their own governing process)
  Personally I believe these games will eventually be treated more as legitimate "places" we visit, with their own customs, laws, languages, cultures, and economies, and less as things we do to kill time. Consequently, my interest in the academics of virtual sociology and economy.
  Anyways, all just thoughts, I'm only level 11, so I'm still learning about the mechanics, but the finance thing is just too cool not to watch, especially with the efforts the team at Tiny Speck put in to create the Auction Houses and really try to simulate a functioning economy.
  Posted 14 months ago by Maurice de Saxe | Permalink
- I have played in quite a number of MMORPGs (does not mean Many Men Online Role-Playing Games,though it's certainly applicable) including Second Life and I've been quite disappointed in what I have seen especially in MMORPGs that have item malls and economics based on monster drops. Second Life was the only exception until I stumbled onto Glitch.
  I once made and hatched several eggs for a friend of mine then sent them via Frogmail. He insisted on paying me even though I told him they were house-warming presents (he just bought a house in-world) so I told him to just send me pickles, which he can make since he has Master Chef skills as opposed to my Animal Kinship and Gardening skills.
  Not that I don't like the auction system, since I use it from time to time, but I much prefer barter over actual currency exchange as there is another factor involved; It's a matter of value. Value is subjective and reducing it to abstract currency takes some of the fun out of the game.
  In your example for the emblems, reducing it to just ROI is missing the point. The 4,000¢ price of the emblem is not representative of hard-and-fast cost-versus-benefit, but rather a matter of subjective value.
  — Mal'akh, Primate of Lem, Primus Inter Pares of the Orthodox Church of the Giants of Ur,Hubby of Aranna, Shriner of Mullangi Meda
  Posted 14 months ago by Mal'akh | Permalink