Topic

Another Debate About Rudeness?

So, I was wondering, is it considered rude to buy up all auctions for a particular item and not leave any?  I was wondering because I frequently need an item, and I just usually buy out every auction I can find, and I didn't think twice about it.  But just now I thought about it, and what if someone else needed that item too?  Is it fair to say first come, first serve?  Or is it rude to just buy everything cause I'm rich and maybe some lower levels/poorer players might need them too?  Any ideas?

Posted 18 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • No.  :)
    Posted 18 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • this game is survival of the  fittest.. . go for the throat.
    Posted 18 months ago by napabeth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Auctions are fair trade. Buy and sell as much as you want for the best price you can. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Riverwalker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I do not think it's rude. It's the luck of the draw whether what you need will be in the auction at the time you need it.
    Posted 18 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • no. thats the answer
    Posted 18 months ago by Djoe6897 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nope. Not rude at all. If it's up for sale, anyone can buy. If you buy all of something, that's up to you :)
    Posted 18 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Agree with everyone:)
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "He who controls the spice, controls the universe!"
    Posted 18 months ago by A Magical Unicorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Fear is the mindkiller."
    Posted 18 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Additional checkout lanes are now open."
    Posted 18 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just wanted to make sure, it wouldn't be the first time I would have been completely shocked by things that are considered "rude", and I don't want to piss anyone off!
    Posted 18 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You are the nicest and best kind of customer. By all means buy every item :)

    - Eggy, avid auction-seller
    Posted 18 months ago by EgIantine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it's only rude if you think it is. Is it rude to burp at the dinner table? Yes, in America, and only in more traditional households (at frat houses it may be encouraged, for instance). In Japan, it is rude not to burp, from what I understand. Thus, it all really depends. If you really don't believe it's rude, then you go for all the stuff you want. If you do, then leave it be. But either way, overall, it really doesn't matter. It's not like you're cursing at someone as you buy all of their items, lol.
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You can't make everyone happy and we will always be stepping on someone's toes....Trust me if it was an issue,you would have heard the noise in the forums before you even typed your concerns ;) Play on!
    Posted 18 months ago by Tilly TrinkleHouse Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the bigger issue in the AH would be  'stealing' someone else's auction, ie.

    overhearing in global chat "hey can someone put X on auction for me?" and
    then buying out the auction before the glitch that requested it gets it from auction...
    and then re-posting in AH again for higher price!

    grrrr!

    xoxo
    Posted 18 months ago by A Magical Unicorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would just like to reiterate that my above stance is also the stance most people seem to have on mining, too, so... yeah. Lol
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nah it's not rude at all, things are there to be bought, if you buy them all, good luck to you!...if you want to buy them and sell at a higher price....well the first seller has made money from it, so I don't see any problem in that either, it's no different to a real life economy in that sense.
    Posted 18 months ago by Morticia Addams Subscriber! | Permalink
  • From the seller's point of view it's awesome. Selling all my auctions in one go and getting my currants. Who cares who bought them.
    Posted 18 months ago by Fussycat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As long as it doesn't end up with you screwing the entire economy over (and I really doubt that) I'm perfectly fine.
    Posted 18 months ago by Liridona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @A Magical Unicorn
    There is no way to tell if the person is knowingly "stealing". 
    *edits* Unless they post "HaHa I stole your item" in which case they are being kind of obnoxious 
    *end edit* 
    I barely go on global chat. I often look at the auctions for bargains. 
    If I happen to click on auctions and find a great bargain that's just been posted and buy it, not realizing it's been put up there specially for someone else... am I then branded a theif?

    The reselling issues a tricky one. I buy stuff often. If I need currants, I sell stuff. I don't really see the issue. 
    I've always figured that when a buyer (online or offline) purchases something, then that something is no longer anything to do with the seller and belongs 100% to the person that purchased that item. To do with what they wish.  If they want to sell, keep, drop, gift, whatever, surely that's entirely their own business? 
    If I buy something off eBay, I'm not going to have the seller dictate to me what I can and can't do with that item...  
    Posted 18 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @A Magical Unicorn
    It's easily done innocently - I did it once (without realising), and then as soon as I'd bought (allspice, I think), I noticed a conversation in Global Chat complaining that their goods had been bought by someone else.  I simply apologised and put it back on auction for the same price I'd paid. So, it's easy to do such a thing unwittingly, but if it's done knowingly, then yes, that's downright rude.
    Posted 18 months ago by dopiaza Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't see it as being rude, if you're willing to pay and they're willing to sell (we're assuming they're willing to sell since it has been posted on the auction house) then it's fair game. There's no guarantee that anyone will buy those items after you've "left them there in case anyone else might want to buy them."

    The only time I stop myself from buying all is when I've set a personal limit on how much I'll spend on a current item. Say I'm buying a gem and there are 30 gems up for auction. The prices range from 150 - 300, with the average at 180. I'll set my price limit at 180 and buy all the gems ≤ 180 minus one. I will usually leave one gem at 180 to help prevent the pricing on those gems from skyrocketing. It may work, it might not work (I'm sure the logic is beyond flawed) but it's what I do, lol.
    Posted 18 months ago by Kippsi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe they should make a private auction channel for those who are selling to only specific people...or mail that can go instantly without hitting the auctions..That way they can't mistake it for being for sale on the open board.
    Posted 18 months ago by Tilly TrinkleHouse Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The auction works on supply and demand. If I am putting things on auction it's because there's either a specific need (i.e. projects) or because I want to raise $$. It doesn't matter to me who buys it. 

    If I am dealing with someone on a project or just in general, I will make that deal directly. Sometimes I just give what is needed. Sometimes it's a trade. It depends on what it is and my relationship with that person. Some folks give freely to those who give to them. Some don't.
    Posted 18 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If we need barnacles for a project, and I ask in global chat if anyone has them to auction, I fully expect that others who are working on the project (and some others who want to make a quick buck by buying and reselling) will be buying every barnacle in sight as soon as they're put up for auction.  It's just the nature of the thing.  Of course, now that we have a faster mail system, it's easy to ask a friend to send something, and then send currants back.
    Posted 18 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • kinda unrelated...but I remember once I was trying to sell someone some EHSP, and EVERY TIME I put it up m4 immediately bought it. Now before you say "it's fair trade, if you put it up people will buy it," well...we had been talking about in global chat, repeatedly, and I'm almost certain he was doing it to be frustrating. Now I'm not saying that's not 'fair,' per se, but...common courtesy, please!?
    Posted 18 months ago by Cupcake Subscriber! | Permalink
  • my understanding is that some folks have been able to use an otherwise well meant automated scriptie thinger in order to constantly scan the auction for items set below a certain price and to buy those items and then resell them at a higher set price. 

     This goes way beyond rude in my opinion into and heads right into unfair advantage territory, down underhanded boulevard and landing pretty close to cheating lane. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Wren Bramble Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If I put items up at what I consider a fair price and someone else purchases them and resells them, no harm no foul.

    Notifications of items priced at or below a threshold is one thing. If the API also allows automated buying, that's a bit different. I don't consider it cheating, but I would hope that this option of automated buying and scripting that does that would be blocked via an external API call or automated external script. However, if within the confines of the game, the functionality was put in place to support an eBay style bidding type of thing in the Auction - I could get behind that.

    I would also hope that any tool that uses the API against the production version of Glitch would have to be publicly available and not limited to the developer and select friends, etc.
    Posted 18 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It sounds like an auto buy script would be a violaton of the TOS: "Cheating and Hacks: You agree not to:modify the Service to change gameplay, including creating cheats and/or hacks or using third-party software to access files in the Service; engage in using macros, auto-looting or robot play or any other behavior that allows you (or any character you are controlling) to automatically function or effect any action in a game with or without your presence"
    Posted 18 months ago by MaryLiLamb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hi Laurali - No, I don't think your actions on auctions are rude.

    @A Magical Unicorn - I very rarely fallow global chat. If I bought something "intended" for another player, it was by mistake. However, I don't think I'm in the wrong - I do work on street projects, so, I'm often looking at the auctions for items I need. Also, if you want to send something directly to another player (and know they get it), I think the mail system would be better suited for that.

    Edit - @glum - you pretty much said what I was thinking ;)    
    Posted 18 months ago by Sadie the Goat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow!  A Rude thread about Rudeness, how thoughtful!  Let's try to agree that Rude or not, it is Considerate to think of others.  Thank you!
    Posted 18 months ago by Brib Annie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With the new mail system, there's no need for anyone to post an item to the auction if they're making it available to benefit just one person.

    You can simply mail the item.  The recipient can mail you back some currants. 

    What's on auction is intended for anyone. 
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • WingBorn is absolutely right.

    I don't enjoying feeling guilty when I accidentally purchase something that was intended for someone else.

    A lot of players check the Latest Auctions page to find well-priced items.
    We can't be expected to check the global chat, also; it distracts us from playing the game. =(
    Posted 18 months ago by cheater Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Wren The script has been out for less than 24 hours, I find it hard to believe that scalping behaviour (if it exists) is caused by the script. You can definitely scalp without it.

    @g33kgurrl My scripts are not, and never will be, limited to a restricted circle. Everyone is welcome to try it out.

    TOS issues aside (if it makes Tiny Speck unhappy, I will pull it down in a heartbeat no questions), I wrote the script/extension after a brief exchange with Simplin. I had stacks of vapour lying around cluttering up my bags after going for the watering/petting/harvesting Gas Plants badges and decide to put them all on auction. Simplin bought them all seconds/minutes after I listed them, and in an IM exchange, I found out that he was was working on the season 2003 eggs achievement and needed alot of vapour.

    So I thought, "Oh, that must be a pain." He must have had to constantly refresh the auction page and click to buy each auction. And so boom, the idea of an auction sniper was born (I have also used a sniper program for eBay before).

    I was perhaps a little naive (apparently a common developer malaise) to think that nothing bad would come out of this. I actually thought that the sniper would encourage people to price their items more realistically since with the sniper, these auctions will get bought really quickly. An accelerated version of Adam Smith's invisible hand.

    The auctions are really an expression of WTS (Want to Sell) intents, and the sniper a WTB (Want to Buy) mechanism (a "reverse" auction if you will). TS can totally block this if they want to right now. But in the long run, it will be so much better if there was a way for WTBs to be fulfilled.

    I had *no* idea that it could even be construed as being close to cheating. This was a fun exercise in programming and certainly no ill-intent was meant.
    Posted 18 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ping, it's already been pointed out in the group thread that your auction script pretty clearly violates the TOS.

    In any case, I also think that things on auction are fair game for anyone, despite anything mentioned in various chat channels.  If you want something to go to a particular person, use mail or walk up and trade with them.
    Posted 18 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not necessarily rude, but if you are buying items you do not need that's just greedy.
    Posted 18 months ago by Alison Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Alison: Isn't that just OCD though? I should know...
    Posted 18 months ago by Liridona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No, it's not.
    Posted 18 months ago by Alison Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @larky lion: If I were to pull the sniper right now, I would feel obliged to pull the skill queuer as well. The mechanism for both scripts is too similar to allow one but not the other.

    That's a dilemma. TOS never came up (as far as I know) when I made the skill queuer available, so I don't really know what to make of it.
    Posted 18 months ago by ping Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the TOS is at odds with the API.

    regarding the OP, the faster and more you buy, the greater the incentive for sellers to put stuff up for sale, which can then be purchased by other players.

    that's your classic grade school 'supply and demand' scenario - but free market economies get WAY more complicated than that.

    you run into big time problems when players attempt to corner the market and raise the market value of goods by creating artificial scarcity.

    or when you get into any kind of system where large amounts of capital are used to manipulate markets instead of creating value, then generating large amounts of capital which can be used to further manipulate markets.

    this isn't a big problem in glitch, since there are NPC vendors with fixed pricing and the fact that it is relatively easy to harvest or make stuff yourself, but will become a greater problem as more rare items begin to appear.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Guess I'm consistent -- I feel the same way about the skill queuer (and don't use it).
    Posted 18 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • regarding the auction sniper .. yeah that thing is ripe for abuse but if banned i am pretty sure you'd see people taking shifts or screen scraping to achieve the same effect.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @stri - right now the problem I have with it is that it *is* being abused. It was actually being test driven by a handful during the test and I noticed it right away. Bottom end prices are being fixed by a handful of people at a rate of 'what you can sell it to a vendor for'. It does not permit free market economy - it's being used for a buy-win. Those items get donated for xp, sold for coin and used to buy things to donate for xp. 

    It's only going to get worse as people become more competitive about it... "they're buying at 29 so to get the items I can take a small cash loss and auto-buy at 30" until 'vendor pricing' or higher and items unobtainable from vendors becomes the only utility for the auctions.

    Already happening... horse done left the barn - how do you keep it in the pasture?

    ETA: @ping - Re: Skill Queuer... I think it did actually come up from a couple people when it was released, but at that time we had no specific language in the form of a TOS.... 

    Secondary thought: is there any way to alter the auto-buy so that it's an auto-notify? It would be totally in scope if the polling sent you a 'hey - there's eggs in your price range' notice. It would require you to be logged in to receive the message, and require you to take action, and therefore be in the bounds of the TOS. Same principal could/should apply to the Skill Queuer, make it a 2 min warning as opposed to 'automatic'.
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ping -- I know very little about who has what scripts or what they do. So in all honesty, my statements were based on previous games I have either supported administratively and/or played and how scripts and use of API were viewed. It seemed to be a very common theme. It was definitely not directed at any individual or group. 

    As far as the rest -- I may buy something I don't need at this moment but see a need for in the long run. Or I could buy at a very low price and resell based on current market if I find something priced ridiculously low. Whether anyone buys to stockpile or if they really need something - I don't see the harm either way or that one is rude and the other is not rude and completely acceptable.

    It may be rough on some folks to get their hands on certain items. Certainly those with the most $$ can purchase more and hold out certain things that are more rare and sell them at a huge mark up if they choose. That's rather capitalistic, I think, and perfectly appropriate. 

    If you can't get to wherever to purchase something or get it through a quest, through an achievement, etc, you pay whatever price you are willing to pay. Good for the seller. The buyer -- well, beware but if you spend the $ there is no sympathy for price gouging. Your alternative is to wait to get something through the game rather than purchasing from an entrepreneurial sort in the auction.

    I think Glitch tries to be as fair as possible, but you can't prevent competition, supply and demand, etc. Wherever there is some sort of currency and there are goods or services, there is the opportunity to make money from selling and reselling. It's the nature of the game. 
    Posted 18 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Certainly those with the most $$ can purchase more and hold out certain things that are more rare and sell them at a huge mark up if they choose. That's rather capitalistic, I think, and perfectly appropriate."

    uh .. why is that perfectly appropriate? just because it is capitalistic? are all 'capitalistic' things innately appropriate or something?

    glitch isn't even a real economy anyway. if players are allowed to monopolize and price gouge because it is 'capitalistic' and thus appropriate .. whatever .. but surely you realize that if that takes a portion of fun out of the game for the majority of players who won't have that capital it'll drive players [and potential subscribers] away from the game, coz they know it's rigged.

    you do know that it is possible for a market to eat itself, right? that these things are not innately self stabilizing? that it is the specific qualities of a market that makes it sustainable, not merely the fact that it is a market?

    'appropriate' isn't a benchmark glitch should be setting for itself anyway. 'fun' is far, far, far, far more appropriate.

    and if something 'capitalistic' cuts into the 'fun' of the majority of players, there's nothing at all appropriate about it.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 on Travinara's thought: Secondary thought: is there any way to alter the auto-buy so that it's an auto-notify? It would be totally in scope if the polling sent you a 'hey - there's eggs in your price range' notice. It would require you to be logged in to receive the message, and require you to take action, and therefore be in the bounds of the TOS. Same principal could/should apply to the Skill Queuer, make it a 2 min warning as opposed to 'automatic'.
    Posted 18 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • These scripts can be altered, but someone else will surely rewrite them to do what they do now.  I was pretty surprised that TS decided to let people use scripting in the first place, and I'm interested to see whether or not they try to put the cat back into the bag, so to speak.
    Posted 18 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I somehow feel this is a can of worms, and just because it can be opened it justifies opening it.
    When everyone else is speeding, does the judge let you out of the ticket?

    Point is, if others do it as well - TS would/should/could reseal the can... again. And repeat process until the mechanics are robust enough it stops happening.

    The existing scripts are a great concept that can be worked into the limits placed on the game. The API can and does get used for other purposes, and I can see loads of room for certain things (can't a timer and notepad ap be created via the API like people have been asking for?)... but I do feel automatic anything is against the spirit of the game, and clearly against the terms.
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's late and I'm traveling and I haven't actually tested the script, but with those caveats: Ping's script is exactly the kind of thing we'd like people to build with the API (and what I hoped would happen with auctions).

    That doesn't mean we won't break it later with something built into the game or require explicit user action to perform the buying rather than have that automated — that may happen or it may not. But, the script is good as far as I can tell.

    In the past there were complaints that these were not "real" auctions (because they were not the most familiar form of auction). By design, they were meant to function in a similar way to public stock markets, except with only the ability to post an "ask" (as opposed to both "bid" and "ask"). This script just provides the other half — a fixed-limit bid. That should provide more liquidity and help find the "right" price at the current time.

    I don't think that "right price" will always settle at vendor prices because some things are just too easy to acquire and walking to a vendor takes time … but if some Glitch's end up making a living through arbitraging the difference between auction and vendor prices and earn their money by doing the walking to vendors, that's fine by us. (The vendor prices will not always be stable in the future — there should eventually be regional price differentials based on supply & demand. Vendor overhaul is coming up, but that not *that* soon.)

    Maybe it will screw things up … we'll see. And if there are problems, we'll fix them. But the ability to have things get screwed up from time to time is part of design of Glitch as well. Keeps it interesting ;)

    The language in the TOS is about scripting actions *in the game* (moving your avatar, harvesting, crafting, etc.) That we explicitly prohibit and will do our best to prevent by technical means. Until/unless we change our minds, this script does not violate the TOS.

    (The skill-queuing script we are less enthusiastic about, but still thinking about that.)
    Posted 18 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • M'tay.... off to go set my base prices at anything 80% of vendors. 
    Honestly if it's ok with TS and not a TOS violation.... I'm off to go make xp the easy way.
    Posted 18 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
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