Topic

Open Discussion on proper Glitch courtesy

First and foremost, let's keep this friendly. I am just curious what the community thinks. I'm going to list examples and you post on what the proper actions should be. Thanks!

Example One:
During the candy exchange at Somewhat Sump, hundreds of people gathered to exchange candy for roughly 3 complete full days. This caused an immense amount of lag and game shutdowns for a lot of people. Is this considered unfair for those who wished not to participate, but were just using the road for their own gameplay? If a couple people came on the road (1 out of 800) and said, 'You are affecting my gameplay, please stop and leave'.... do they need to stop and leave?

Example Two:
Some of you may have seen my Cubimal Drop from Oktyabrya. Basically, I'm up on a ledge in the sky that people can't see. Then as people walk below, I start racing Cubimals who actually fall from the sky. At any given time there could be 20-30 Cubimals just falling from the sky. Now, during 5 hours of doing this, I have received just nothing but positive feedback. People just loved it! A lot of new players didnt even know what these were. I gave them information and even handed out free to cubimals to some. Then, 2 people (one of which who I know and respect) said that all the cubimals drops were causing lag and glogging up local with their messages about how far they walked. They asked for me to stop. (I did, but did have a conversation about it as well).

So basically, what I am asking is, is there a difference between the two? Hundreds of people benefited from the candy exchange, and if I performed the Cubimal Drop for the same duration as the candy exchange, Im sure that I would have received hundreds of positive messages and thank yous. At what point does one need to stop doing something cause someone else doesn't like it/or affects their gameplay? At the same token, if I want to be the only person selling tomatoes on the Auction House, do i have a right to ask people to stop selling theirs because they are affecting my gameplay? Are we not allowed to have demonstrations on one street out of 800 cause it may affect others chat channel? 

Please post anything you would like regarding this topic. I'm curious to see what people feel. Thanks!!!!

Posted 13 months ago by Hoodjack Saken Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I had some thoughts about the candy exchange at Somewhat Sump, only because I stumbled upon it by accident when I was on my way elsewhere. For the unsuspecting Glitch, it may have not been a very welcome surprise, especially if your computer is laggy in general. (The candy exchange caused my browser to crash a number of times, but I was going there voluntarily so I was doing it to myself). The only thing I did not like about where the Candy Exchange was is that it was on the subway line street, so people who were not aware? Would get off of the subway and into this mass of Glitches that could have ruined the gameplay for them. Solution? Move to a street that was not a main thoroughfare, perhaps one of the dead-end streets.

    It's a touchy subject as to where to draw the line. If it's causing lag for one, then I would honestly say that's a single-Glitch problem. If there are multiple reports of it causing lag, then I would take that a little more seriously. But I don't think there's any set answer that will make everyone happy with it.

    I suppose just more advertisements of where this is happening at so as to let people who want to avoid that area do so would be easiest.

    And I don't feel that I have made a point int his at all. Le sigh.
    Posted 13 months ago by Saiai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, I wish I'd seeing the falling cubimals!

    I'm not really sure what the best response would have been in either of those situations.

    Sometimes rolling the 12-sided die causes really bad lag for me, and at a party I once requested that someone stop rolling the die.  They didn't stop rolling it, and I had to reload - but reloading fixed the lag for me.

    I guess I don't NEED someone to stop doing something for me, but I will sometimes politely ask them to, and if they do, that's great. If they don't, that's okay - it's their right - and I can always come back later.
    Posted 13 months ago by Illamasqua II Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for responding Saiai,

    The only problem with what you say about going to a dead-end street is, what if someone else wants to be on that dead-end street for other purposes? It now affect their gameplay....

    Advertisements would work, but, once again, if people want to be on that street not for the demonstration, then they could simply cite community guidelines and ask for it to be ended.

    You know, this is far fetched scenario but... Have you ever called the police because a neighbor was too loud? Is that wrong? It's affecting your ability to function, to sleep or to have peace... so you call the police to ask them to stop. BUT, what if you actually prefer your neighbors to be loud? What if that's what helps you function and sleep and enjoy yourself? Maybe you are accustom to city living and now you live in the burbs.... are you able to call the police and say that your neighbors are too quite? (I know its far fetched, but what it is getting at is that everyone plays in their own way and it is absolutely impossible to please everyone)
    Posted 13 months ago by Hoodjack Saken Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lllamasqua,

    Here is a photo:

    https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0sz5eCR-CIcYmI4NzZkZmEtMDM4Ni00MmRjLThjZmYtNDFiNjlhYzYxZjI4&hl=en_US
    Posted 13 months ago by Hoodjack Saken Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While I dont think this will be a problem for long with the introduction of groupspaces...fast...or slowly approaching I think it might have been smarter to open a party space.

    Another thing is that folks like to stand infrount of vendors and use whatever they just bought to craft something and it often times makes it harder for others(this goes for those who smelt infront of their rock and craft infront of trees or doors). So while I always try to take a few steps away when I do something.. I never grief or talk to other people about it.I think a lot of little things like that will always be an issue as new ppl come in and out so even if I made 100 posts about it and told every glitchen I saw and spammed local chat ...It will always be an issue.But its lil annoyances so NBD.
    Posted 13 months ago by Sperkle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here is my opinion on this topiic: There are many streets in UR. If someone is lagged out, go somewhere else. Yes, you might have some slowdown leaving the subway, but the next street is really close. Regarding folks who say that activity is glogging up their local, again, what's the big deal. Nobody is getting hurt. Or as I said to my kids, "if there's no blood, play on lads!" Unless it's rugby--even with blood, unless a bone is sticking out, play on lads.

    In a more general sense, I am fascinated by the creation of culture and community in this game. Lot's of times I am not happy with the turns--all the player made rules, soapboxing, and whatnot. But it's always up to me whether--and HOW--I will play. Playing on.
    Posted 13 months ago by Mac Rapalicious Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The candy exchange was a collective activity.  Everybody knew about it and everybody engaged.  Your cubimal drop was an individual activity.  Two completely different things. 

    People who complained about 'local chat' being disrupted could have simple gone to the next street, of course.

    It's really impossible to 'stand in the way' anywhere in the game, unless we are talking about mouse-only players.  Hit 'return' and pick the vendor from the choices.  I agree that people get 'in the way' and probably shouldn't.  But it doesn't really impede anybody elses' play.

    The thing that I think is a big turnoff to a lot of people is any time people get preachy about how other people act.  Except for a small number of over-the-top malcontents, it's really just a matter of different forms of gameplay.  I always, ALWAYS pick up preachy notes that I encounter, because the Gods really want them in their shrines.

    (but maybe people inclined to be preachy and bossy are just playing the game their way, etc. etc. ad nauseum)
    Posted 13 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it's going to be one of those questions that never gets a 'good' answer. It's opinions, and there is always going to be someone who doesn't like what's going on. But it's a good place for discussion, I just think I'm going to constantly be talking myself in circles here!

    My opinion as of late when I find things I don't like happening on a certain street is just to go elsewhere. Why let someone else ruin the game for me when there are tons of other places I can go to have fun at :D
    Posted 13 months ago by Saiai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To consider the "proper" courtesy of these cases, there are a few things to consider: One aspect of courtesy is the feasibility of the request.  

    In Example One, the feasibility of the Candy exchange moving to a different street was rather low, because first, it would first require a great amount of movement in the people who were already there.  Information would first have to be dispersed to all of the participants, and as there is no "head" of the exchange, each Glitch would be able to make their own choice on whether they wished to move or not.  Even if some Glitches decided to be exceedingly courteous and move, it is likely that some (or many) Glitches would remain.  

    Second, a movement would require a great deal of corrections to all of the marketing (forums, notes, global chat) that had already gone out about it, causing confusion, or likely even a restart of the Candy Exchange in Somewhat Sump by people who assumed that the candy party had broken up, not being aware that it had moved.  In which case, you would likely end up with two candy exchanges, and only a brief reprieve from lag, with no improvement to the candy exchangers.  

    Third, there is not a particular reason why a Glitch must be in Somewhat Sump.  Sure, the subway is there, however, there was usually enough time before lag set in to get to (or from) the subway to the signpost without crashing.  There are no rare items at SS that make it a necessary or (more) desirable place to hang around, therefore, if the company (or the lag) was upsetting, one could simply leave.  

    Next to be considered is intent. The candy exchange was set up for the good of ALL Glitchen who wished to give candy, receive candy, eat candy, and earn badges.  It wasn't set up to lag the game (although that was a side effect).  

    Finally, numbers must be considered.  Should 800 people have to alter their game play to accommodate 1?  In this case, the greater inconvenience goes to the 800--their sheer numbers make the alteration more inconvenient than the alteration of the one.  

    So to add up the request feasibility was : unfeasible
    The intent was : good/generous 
    The numbers were : 800>1 

    Therefore, I do not think it was discourteous to say to the complaining player (very politely) that if they had a problem with the Candy exchange, that they should work around SS for a few days.  

    Now applying the system to Example Two, and you get: 
    The request feasibility was: Very feasible
    The intent was : neutral 
    The numbers were : 1 = 1   

    Discounting intent, whenever the numbers are 1-1 and the request is feasible, I believe courtesy dictates that you should.  The request to stop costs you nothing, nor does it inconvenience you in any way, and likely only limits your game play to the time it takes the player to clear the street, at which time, you might resume your activities.  

    Now, as to your question "At what point does one need to stop doing something cause someone else doesn't like it/or affects their gameplay?" I would say that their request should first be feasibile (which rules out asking others to stop selling tomatoes, as it effects their economic situation and game play), next, the numbers should be on their side, at least 1-1.  If the numbers are NOT on their side, you can look at intent as a kind of tie-breaker.  What are your motives in the action?  Are they selfless?  For example, if someone asks you to stop giving bags full of diamonds to newbies, because it interupts their gameplay of ripping them off, or press-ganging them into being a purple-flower drug mule, well, the feasibility is high, because keeping your bagfuls of diamonds actually benefits you, and the numbers are on your side 1-1, BUT your intentions are selfless, and your actions are beneficial, which tips the scale in your favor.  
    Posted 13 months ago by Kross, the Empress Subscriber! | Permalink
  • An interesting and thorough argument, Kross.
    Posted 13 months ago by Zurin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Kross, thank you for the time you put into your response.

    However, I do believe some of the info you stated slightly incorrect. 

    The request feasibility was: Very feasible
    The intent was : neutral 
    The numbers were : 1 = 1   

    Request feasibility to Move: Not too feasible. 
    -> The purpose of Cubimal Drop is to have people stop, be curious about what is going on, and have a quick laugh. In order to do this, they need to be falling from out of the sky. (If i was just racing them on the ground, that doesnt provide and intrigue) So I need a street with a ledge in the sky that people from the ground can't see. Plus I need traffic. No point in having a cubimal drop to have people laugh about it if people don't come through.

    The intent was : positive
    -> I've spent 5+ hours just dropping cubimals from the sky. There is no badge, no exp, no mood, no energy that I get from this. I have simply spent 5+ hours dropping them, because in camera mode, I see all the people below stop, jump around, chase after them, gather around, and make positive comments about how random and fun this is. 

    The numbers were : 30+ = 2 
    -> 5+ hours of dropping have yielded at least 30 positive comments, but I'm sure a lot more. 5+ hours of dropping have yielded 2 requests to stop which is the exact amount.

    So, I feel, I was in a location which was needed for my demonstration to work, I had extremely positive and selfless intent, and I had at least 15x more positive comments than negative.

    So what the magic number? Is it 35 to 2, 108 to 3, 1038 to 7, 1843939 to 12....? 

    Those are my thoughts :)
    Posted 13 months ago by Hoodjack Saken Subscriber! | Permalink
  • LOL dropping cubimals from the sky is awesome.  People complain about the smallest things.  If you enjoy it and are having a great time, and other people are enjoying what you're doing, then keep on I say.  Seems kinda puritanical for people to tell you to stop using an item for its intended purpose because you're "generating lag", which is a completely subjective thing.
    Posted 13 months ago by Zimmi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was one of the people who pointed out to Hoodjack that the cubimal racing was quite spammy.

    Several times, so many cubimals were racing that it formed two columns of black notifications on my game screen.  Not local chat, but the game screen.  Covering 2/3 of the screen.

    The racing had been going on for 5 hours.

    Every time I used the street to get from Groddle Forest to Ilmenski, or tried to collect my mail, my game screen would fill up with racing notifications.  

    I love the idea of raining cubimals to introduce new players to them.  It got pretty old and tired however to not be able to see the game screen most of the time I was on that street, which is the only route between GF and Uralia, and the nearest mailbox from Cebarkul.
    Posted 13 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hoodjack, you have your numbers incorrect.  The numbers represent the active participant (people doing an action) and the inconvenienced (people annoyed by the action).   Your 30+ positive commenters are not active participants--they have no actions to be amended. 

    So the numbers are 1 < 2 

    Also, the numbers affect your feasibility: As a single person, it is always easier to stop your actions than for a group to do so.
    However, in regards to your feasibility, In the original post, you said the request was to "stop", which I took as a temporary request so that the requester could pass through the streets without getting bumped off by lag, but here you say "Move" which is something different--obviously the feasibility would be different for different actions, and I agree with your assessment that a request to "Move" your activities is less feasible, although not that much so.  

    Ultimately you fall into an area that is grey: at best, not rude: you are using the toys as they are intended to be used (by racing) and there are no written rules banning that.  As Zimmi says, "generating lag" is subjective as well.  However, moving was an option, as many streets have cliffs and drops--you chose one with a high traffic pattern to suit your purposes, but you must also be aware that the same high-traffic pattern can cause inconvenience to other players, and the numbers were against you.  In such a case, if my primary concern was courtesy, I would comply with the requester.  
    Posted 13 months ago by Kross, the Empress Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Or perhaps a compromise? You can continue racing them down, but maybe not so many at a time, or not so often (say only 1 or 2 cubimals per minute or so)... that way there will still be a rain of cubimals, but not so many notifications or lag.
    Posted 13 months ago by Zurin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am a glitch n00b. I am however not a noob to group organization on the internet. I assisted in running a chatroom supporting nanowrimo but that is another story for another thread. Glitch drew me in because of the community type atmosphere and the willingness of people to help one another. I would say carry on and don't worry too much with the detractors
    Posted 13 months ago by dr kelly Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would like to chime in, because I participated in the cubimal drop with Hoodjack and one other player. I was only there for awhile, but I can affirm that it was great fun for all but two players who complained.

    There was a brief discussion and we halted the drop until the unhappy players left the street.

    I think that Glitch's interface has a problem with over-notification in general. Why do people not racing cubimals need to see notifications about OTHER people's races? Why do we have to get the exact same ridiculously butterfly milk message a gazillion times? There ought to be a way of turning such things off: "Don't show this again for a) this street b) this session or c) EVAR." Or how about giving people an option to get notices in the Local Chat stream only, instead of in the game window?

    How about a pop-up: "Cubimal races are taking place: do you want to see the results? [ ] Yes [x] No."

    I don't think the cubimals alone would be causing major lag. The notifications are the issue.

    [Update: I've made a request in the Ideas forum. Have a look and chime in there, please!]
    Posted 13 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To be honest, I totally spaced on the Zilleween giveaway at Somewhat Sump ... until I emerged from the subway into a space crammed with Glitches.

    So I promptly started handing out candy, despite lag and it being near impossible to see everyone. When I needed more, I went over one street, whipped up a few more batches, and returned, not only giving out candy, but sharing my stock with Glitchen who'd run out and weren't in a position to make more. (I'd originally gone down there to look for fireflies, and I haven't gotten around to that yet.)

    The craziness of the gathering was rather fun. Something unusual like the cubimal drop might be equally silly/fun in an improv kind of way. The only reason I'd take issue with it is if it crashes the game overall or interferes with a key spawn.
    Posted 13 months ago by TK-855 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think intent plays a large part and should be considered whenever complaining about something.  Neither the candy-swapping party nor the cubimal-dropping exhibition was done to promote lag.  Rather, lag was a side-effect. 

    In those cases, ire should perhaps be directed towards the people coding the game and not the participants involved.  But that's just my two cents.
    Posted 13 months ago by Warrender Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I approve of the cubimal drop. In my humble opinion, anything that is not against the rules of the community and is not performed with bad intentions is ok.
    Posted 13 months ago by Mandy.23 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with many here that it is unreasonable to ask many people to stop doing something because of one person's lag.

    On the other hand, I do think it's reasonable to ask somebody to stop doing something temporarily until you can clear the street. With the candy exchange, this would not work. Stop... existing? sorry. With the cubimal drop, pausing for a few minutes after hours of doing something seems acceptable.

    I've been paying attention to this recalling some problems I've had before with people racing cubimals or rolling 12-sideds at (crowded) street projects. Projects tend to produce lag for me because there are so many glitches present, and it can really impact my ability to participate, which is frustrating. When somebody is rolling or racing and making it worse, I'd like community approval to ask them to please stop.

    You can't expect somebody to know what their actions are doing to your processor until you tell them, but it should be ok to tell people about your frustration and work out a reasonable solution. "Can you all leave this street" is not a reasonable request. "Next time we have a massive event, can it not be at a subway stop" is.

    Certainly, intention to do something fun and improve the game for everyone is admirable and should be encouraged, but we should also be open to the possibility that our good intentions are bothering someone else, and work out individual interactions in a way that leaves everyone happy if we can. It seems like a lot of social conflict in this game result from mismatched expectations, so any time somebody explains what they expect or want in a polite way should be encouraged, even if we don't always decide to accommodate the request.
    Posted 13 months ago by Niqster Subscriber! | Permalink
  • TL;DR

    But clearly... we need some GlitchNightCourt! Bureaucrocs, get onnit.
    Posted 13 months ago by Cait Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @kross, i thnk..

    there is actually a reason a glitch would want to be in somewhat sump as apposed to some other street: it's a popular subway station! for three days i had to go around the long way which isn't a HUGE inconvenience, but it is an inconvenience. i am going to gently suggest that massive event be held on streets that contain no housing quarter, subway stop, or bureaucratic hall.

    that still leaves a lot of available locations.
    Posted 13 months ago by flask Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I stumbled onto the Somewhat Sump candy exchange completely by accident when I was getting off the subway -- and ended up spending the better part of 2 days there.  It was a bit laggy during the peak times, but it was still easy enough to move through to get to the other streets.  I made some new friends, got some candy badges, and even completed a few of my other languishing quests with the help of friendly Glitchen feeling the community spirit.

    One of the things I like best about Glitch is stumbling on the various weird, fun, and yeah, sometimes annoying events that players create or that spontaneously erupt.  It's like finding a flashmob while you're doing your grocery shopping.  Sometimes you're in the mood for it, sometimes you're not, but it's usually easy enough to move to the next aisle. 

    I do wish the cubimal notifications in general were a little shorter, though. 
    Posted 13 months ago by Miss Coco Subscriber! | Permalink
  • How does cubimal racing from a ledge create any more lag than racing on flat ground?   Are they saying all cubimal racing should be banned in public?   I hope not.   I also hope that with the coming of group halls that people don't start insisting that all non-grinding activities be taken to a private space.    Public spaces should be diversified and interesting.

    Were there serious complaints about the candy exchange?   I don't think it prevented anyone getting on or off the subway.   

    I have seen a few problems with people being "in the way" in other situations.  New people mostly - one standing in front of a keyed door in such a way that i couldn't access it and several situations shortly after launch when newbies went afk with their heads hanging over the red button on the subway.  Kind of funny, really.
     
    Rather than compare the inconvenience of the  cubimal racing to the candy exchange based on "the individual vs the crowd"  I'd compare both these special occasion activities to the everyday activities in AB or NN.   Its not like there is one group that has taken over one subway station for its daily activities, or that you have designated that one ledge as your personal cubimal amusement park, so its not really a question of the individual vs the majority.  Its more about toleretance for people breaking with the normal patterns of behavior in public spaces.  
    Posted 13 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And yes to what Miss Coco said - stumbling onto weird activities is fun!
    Posted 13 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There are a lot of reasons to ask someone to stop engaging in a game activity, but lag is not one of them.  If someone has lag, that is between them and TS.  We should not be asked to stop playing just because someone else has an inferior connection.

    Can you imagine playing a game like Battlefield or Call of Duty, and having someone tell you to stop shooting, because it's causing them lag?
    Posted 13 months ago by Jewel Stoned Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lol
    Posted 13 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I do think a polite request to cease doing some things because of lag is acceptable, and it's polite to do so if it's reasonable. Ceasing or moving the candy exchange wouldn't been very feasible. On the other hand, temporarily suspending the cubical racing was reasonable enough.

    Some of the more laggy and spammy activities should be looked at by Tiny Speck, as well as filtering options given to us. I'm not particularly fond of dice rolling in general since the main purpose usually seems to be to spawn rook attacks, which apparently spawns its own lag in addition to the dice rolling lag.. I've seen someone talking about getting major lag when someone spawned a rook attack at Bliss (which just seems a bad idea in general at such really busy locations).

    And, to Jewel Stoned: shooting is a core gameplay feature and not really a suitable comparison. A better comparison would be comparing asking someone to stop, say, mining in Glitch because it's lagging you to asking someone to stop shooting in those games. On the other hand, things like sky cubical raining or dice rolling won't really hurt if you ask to at least temporarily stop it.

    That said, a perfectly reasonable response to such laggy activities is to just move to another area.

    Speaking of areas, a large part of the reason for those activities taking part in fairly public areas is that they were intended for public enjoyment. I was at the candy exchange, and I saw a lot of people being surprised and asking what was going on. At the very least, they got free candy. Some of them joined in the festivities, too.
    Posted 13 months ago by Kaja Rainbow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Apologies for my late arrival to this thread - I dont do much in the forums so was not aware of this until someone else pointed it out to me.  So, I am #2 of the "complainers".
    Firstly and most importantly from my perspective - I must apologise to you Hoodjack if my words caused you any distress.  It was not my intention to stop you having fun. I obviously failed to communicate that my intention was to make you aware that not everyone thought of your activity in a positive way (for reasons already detailed in this thread) - what you were to do with that information was left entirely in your ball-court IMO.  In the end because of RL and because of in-game lag, I had to leave the street before ensuring that I had properly made my point to you without offence or ill-feeling - my bad.

    I understand your perspective that 30 in favour vs 2 against over a 5 hour period looks to you like a fun time was had by (nearly) all - and you may well be right.  But there will have been maybe 200? others passing though who did not comment either way - and neither you nor I can say how they felt about it .... was it "cool, what a fun thing, but I must hurrry on my way without comment" or was it "bloody hell, I can hardly see or move for lag and screen-mash, I better get outta here fast".  We cannot know.  It was only my intention to point out to you something that did not seem to have occureed to you - namely, that *not everyone* thought this was great fun.

    My solution?  Great idea, good fun, take it to a side street.   In Glitch word gets around pretty fast, in my experience - your performance art, even in a side street, would have been noticed and commented on and visited by those that wished to see it. Please do this again (and again) (and again) as long as you are enjoying it and as long as it doesn't impinge on the enjoyment of others.

    Just as a side note .... some of those of us who do have lag problems find that the graphics in Ix and Uralia make things very laggy without any additions, so that area is probably not the best for this type of thing.  Just my observation and no idea why this is the case.
    Posted 13 months ago by Sasca Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just to add to the end of Sasca's comment--I haven't been to Ix in weeks because I always crash when I do go.
    Posted 13 months ago by Berry Goode Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Bo-ring!
    Posted 13 months ago by Ernest Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I nominate Ernest for MOST HELPFUL COMMENT ON TEH INTERWEBZ!!!
    Posted 13 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink