Topic

Rookish Script = Arabic?

In another thread about the lack of subtitles in the Rook Museum, transcripts of the audio were posted.

The transcript for the painting of the "Secret Rook Plans" includes "the only such artifact ever to fall into Glitchian hands — and the only example of Rookish script ever seen".

The inclusion of Arabic/Persian looking writing at the bottom made me think of the Roc from the One Thousand and One Nights, which for some reason hadn't occurred to me before. I think the writing says something like "renounce imagination", which makes sense, but I would be interested to hear from native speakers for a more trustworthy translation. Like a dope I didn't think to take a screen shot but maybe someone did and can post it?

Maybe more artifacts like this will be discovered as the game progresses, shedding more light on the mysterious Rook? Maybe there are other examples out there that I haven't noticed?

Posted 16 months ago by The Cat Face Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Wow! I never thought about it either. I'm not familiar with Arabic script enough to have recognized it so readily. You read Arabic?
    Posted 16 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can tell you that I took one look at it and immediately thought, "I wish I could read Arabic." XD
    Posted 16 months ago by Arii Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I lived in the United Arab Emirates when I was a kid but my Arabic is rusty and was essentially useless. My good friend Google Translate lent a hand but since we've all seen bad translations I'm hoping to get better results from a real live person.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Cat Face Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would have to see a screenshot to judge but I am guess it is as close to elvish as it is to arabic. Most "fantasy" languages look "arabic" or "runic" to western eyes... because he don't know much else.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It was certainly Arabic. I used to be able to read Arabic script but forgot it... I wish we could enter again - I will give it a try!
    Posted 16 months ago by Nevet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • LBO - I also tried the "Translate from Fantasy to English" filter on Google Translate but the results were no where as interesting :)

    I'm pretty sure once you see a screenshot you'll be convinced that it isn't just a fantasy language - at a minimum it is derived from/influenced by Arabic/Persian. Like I mention above - my arabic is rusty, but it isn't so rusty that I mistake the basic alphabet.

    (Edited to add: LBO we posted around the same time. I also wondered if people would attach or feel that anything is implied by the use of, lets say for now, a Middle Eastern influenced script.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Cat Face Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Link to screenshot.
    I don't know Arabic so I can say if it does or not. I hope not. Not that there is anything wrong with Arabic... but... politically that is a loaded thing to attach to the Rook.
    I still say people might see Arabic because they it is flowing script with dots.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • wow Lord Bacon-o! How did you just happen to have that handy? You are amazing--what else do you have in your Glitch magic bag-o' tricks? :)
    Posted 16 months ago by marycontrary Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't know. I spent a few days trying to learn basic Arabic once and didn't really retain much, but I think in cursive Arabic script, most of the medial forms consist of squiggles only above the connecting line. Whereas in the screenshot, all the medial forms look like separate strokes across the central line, going both above and below. For comparison, see Wikipedia's page

    ETA: Granted, I'm sure there are varying styles of Arabic handwriting, and maybe some styles do look more like what you see in the screenshot. 
    Posted 16 months ago by Kittynoises Subscriber! | Permalink
  • marycontrary: I checked the wiki which had a video of the entire quest and took a screenshot myself.

    I honestly really want it NOT to have Arabic influences. Again, not to because Arabic is bad. But if you have a force in Glitch that attacks without warning and seemingly indiscriminately, I would rather not have people associate it with something real world.

    So I went here and started to compare scripts... and sadly, it is Arabic that it most resembles. Perhaps something longer than just what appears to be two words would look like something else. But... sigh.

    However, at this point, I would be hard pressed to match any Rookish letter with actual Arabic letters.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I still think you are a genius, Lord Bacon-o----it never crossed my simple mind to check it out in the wiki. I too hope it is not Arabic--the (I am sure) unintentional parallels are not good.
    Posted 16 months ago by marycontrary Subscriber! | Permalink
  • تخيل is Arabic for imagine.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Cat Face Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love you guys who point out the little details in this game!!!  I've started to slow down my game play to just take in the sights, just for this reason.
    Posted 16 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "تخيل is Arabic for imagine."

    Cat Face, you are correct. And that is ABSOLUTEY the word on the drawing.

    Oh, Tiny Speck. Iffy choice. Not sure what you are try to do with this. But... oof. I don't know what you are getting at. I am absolutely going to assume that you meant no harm... but... oof.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yikes!
    Posted 16 months ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah I have to second LBO's "iffy choice" award nomination.

    On the other hand, I also assume no harm is meant and guess that it came about because of existing Middle Eastern Roc/Rook storytelling traditions.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Cat Face Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What's wrong with using Arabic? Why is it iffy? I don't recall seeing any Arabic in the rook museum!
    Posted 16 months ago by Phochai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh for F's sake people.  WTH.  RELAX.  CHILL.

    I cannot believe that you guys find fault with that.  UNBELIEVABLE.
    Posted 16 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes. Agreed Cat Face.

    I would MUCH rather them make up a language.

    TS, I know you aren't looking, but I've made up half a dozen languages and scripts (for fun, writing, and, yes, roleplaying). It's not that hard.

    Please please please, TS, put something else in there. Give the Rooks their own language. Heck, make it weird and complex and let players puzzle over meaning for years. Or go the Futurama route and make it simple letter substitution with weird letter.

    But don't make it a real world language. It muddles the fantasy of the world.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would have SOME issue if it was Thai or any real language. If the idea is that the Rook is supposed to be other worldy and unknowable, it shouldn't be a real world language. Any real world language. It pulls me out of it.

    And, if the Rook is the "villain" of the world, that is a real loaded metaphor. 

    I'm not taking offense. But it is also a great big door FOR people to take offense. HUGE door. For what is right now two words on a picture in one quest... that seems like a silly risk.

    But, hey, I was super annoyed with George Lucas for both Jar Jar and the Trade Federation stylistic choices.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Stormy - people are relaxed. Relax.

    We are discussing the use of Arabic as the language of "the enemy" in Glitch. No one said censor it - no one said take it away or get rid of it. This is beta. People say what they think about the game. This is part of it.

    Like I said - I don't think there is anything meant to be implied by this. However, I see the possibility for some people that the idea of, as LBO says above, "a force in Glitch that attacks without warning and seemingly indiscriminately" that gets conflated with Arabic language will call to mind/reinforce/abuse existing stereotypes.

    I don't think that it does do this- but I see the potential for that type of thinking.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Cat Face Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree that the choice of Arabic for the "bad guys"   is one of those "not thought through completely" ideas that can be corrected in beta.

    TS, talk amongst yourselves, eh? 
    Posted 16 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I interpret Arabic as being the language of the ancient Giants.
    The word image screams Giants to me.  I see a positive connotation.
    The museum piece wasn't written the bad guy (Rook) but by the creator of the piece - which I'm assuming was imagined into being by the Giants, like we were.

    ETA - Look and see what I mean.  (Thanks to Glitch Addict Website)
    Posted 16 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stormy, that is fine... and very possible... I would be cool with that (would still rather my ancient languages in Glitch to be other worldy and not tied to our world).

    Of course the only information the script currently comes from the museum:
    "the only such artifact ever to fall into Glitchian hands — and the only example of Rookish script ever seen"

    ETA to you ETA: What is your link directing us to look at? Just the quest it self. (Also: Ack! I always forget what a great source Glitch Addicts is! Thank you for the reminder.)
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I took a snapshot and will post it on the f/s facebook wall.
    Posted 16 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • xoxJulie, we have plenty of snap shots now. And Cat Face very correctly translate the first worrd (first reading left to right, of course) as "Imagine." There is no doubt at this point that it is Arabic in the painting.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would imagine it says "Enemy of Imagination"... I got that text from the post included by The Cat Face at the beginning of this thread, which includes the translation by dev @Araldia in @Jobynana's response.

    I plugged those terms into Google translate English to Arabic and it appears to be a match to LBO's image, although it might be missing a portion of the text at the right side.
    Posted 16 months ago by Dr007 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Added link so people could see it in context to form an opinion.
    Posted 16 months ago by Stormy Weather Subscriber! | Permalink
  • OK i've already posted the picture and the lettering shows up quite well.
    Posted 16 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm thinking a good point is that no matter which real-world language would be used, it could be seen as offensive to people who speak it as their native language. After all, would you want only your native tongue to be associated with "the enemy"? I think using a pretend language is a good idea.
    Posted 16 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Don't be a linguist-ism. Don't want an Arabic language? Why are we reading an English language? Get rid of both of real world, we shall read everything in a fantasy language. Would be that fun game?
    Posted 16 months ago by Milolin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Milolin who is your response directed at?
    Posted 16 months ago by Piece of Serenity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Miolin: I used to teach a foreign language and did study linguistics. Language influences thought, that's all I'm saying. In regards to an enemy, I just thought it might be a good place to avoid a real language. Just my two cents:).
    Posted 16 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'll put it this way: What if Klingons just spoke Russian?

    (Next bit is being removed from the Arabic discussion.) Well, if it DOES say enemy of imagination, it seems weird that the Rook would describe themselves as that. One rarely describes oneself as "the enemy" of anything. Villains rarely see themselves as villains. So even if "imagine" or "imagination" is a bad think in their language, they'd describe themselves as "defenders against" or even "destroyers of."

    SO, potentially, the curators of the Rook Museum aren't very good at their job and that was NOT written by the Rooks but by someone else.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That would be the way to handle it LBo
    Posted 16 months ago by Piece of Serenity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lol im probably the only person who saw the rookish and was like wow that is pretty close to dragonic from the elder scrolls series .. it is not hard to see why both dragons and rooks would only be able to carve a language with their talons.

    Although dragonic is pretty harsh to pronounce kinda like Russian or German ..very rough and aggressive  sounding  and i would only imagine the rook to be a very harsh and aggresive spoken language except for a more "flighty" undertones useing expressions and emotion along with the spoken language to get the correct wording out kinda like how alot of Mandarin words sound similar but depending on the fashion they are said can mean a lot of different things.

    hehe im a bit of a nut for languages both real and fantasy
    Posted 16 months ago by Karma Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Don't be a linguist-ism. Don't want an Arabic language? Why are we reading an English language? Get rid of both of real world, we shall read everything in a fantasy language. Would be that fun game?"
    Fair enough... except that obviously you need to draw a line.

    Let's go with good ol' Tolkein. Part of the way he creates a deep "believable" world one can escape into is by creating detailed cultures. Elves and dwarves don't write in a real language. He made ones up for them. If he'd had Orc and Goblins speak German, then The Lord of the Rings would be all about WWI. It would be hard to avoid it. But that wasn't Tolkein's point (as he stated many many times).

    But you obviously can't have everyone else speaking some complete made up language. And in a game, where we are part of a culture (the culture of Ur), you have to make it the language of your users (and, yes, at this time, Glitch is directed an English speaking audience).

    When you create a story/world, you make choices. Those choices have contest outside of the game. If the idea of the Rooks and their language is that they are mysterious unknown, we should not be able to translate their worlds with the use of Google Translator. Kind of pulls the mystery out.

    ETA: Karma, that was similar to my response. Until Cat Face translated it, I assumed it was a made up language. I love made up languages. I once made one based off the concept of a culture that worshipped the void, so tenses revolved around the LACK of things. That was a chore!
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  I can easily see myself as the enemy of evil.  I don't think that Rooks would have any trouble describing themselves as the enemy of imagination.

    {these choices have conteXt outside the game}
    Posted 16 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wasn't Ur a city in ancient middle east? And does that change the discussion in any way?
    Posted 16 months ago by Pirate Apples Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not a big point, but the Rooks weren't self-ascribed enemies of imagination... it was the museum narrator who labelled them as such.
    Posted 16 months ago by Dr007 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the transcript for the drawing also reads "Though its true provenance has never been proven to the satisfaction of all skeptics, most now believe it to be a genuine artifact"

    So it seems possible that "the only example of Rookish script ever seen" is actually not Rookish at all, but a careless mistake made by an underpaid/overworked/under-mabbish-caffeinated clerk in the archives who assumed that the artist's commentary was Rookish? And once the mistake was made it became "true"?

    Or - as the true provenance has never been proven - perhaps it is a fake? To what end, who can say?

    Also - just on the curiosity front of what it actually says when I first stumbled across this I came up with "renounce imagination" though تنبذ is not the same as the first word on the painting - it is an "alternate translation". Again my Arabic is rusty  - I also get "classified" and beginning to think I am just seeing things I want to see.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Cat Face Subscriber! | Permalink
  • reference to the Rook - Enemy of Imagination dialogue in the museum - www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXu... (thanks to GlitchAddict.com for their amazing videos!)
    Posted 16 months ago by Dr007 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dr007, we are looking at a POSSIBLE translation for the Arabic on the painting. It APPEARS to say that. It DEFINITELY says "imagine." The rest is still a bit muddled.
    Posted 16 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Apparently I'm the only one that saw it as a probable signature of the painter who depicted the scene (not a Glitch dev sig, just for the actual painting in the museum.)  
    Posted 16 months ago by fadingfastx3 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • agreed LBO... I was just seeing if there was a match to what IS provided by the game... I look forward to the CORRECT translation! (It won't be provided by me!)
    Posted 16 months ago by Dr007 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • iffy.

    clever, if it is for the Roc reference. still, iffy, for the reasons articulated above.

    if a replacement script is needed .. i know crows can use sticks in their beaks as tools but the rook might find it easier to write by jumping around on their feet.

    but now that i think about it, that's too much like the dinosaur script from Dinotopia http://www.dinotopia.com/dinotopia.html [see bottom of page for script]
    Posted 16 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wasn't Ur a city in ancient middle east?

    Ur is also currently a city in the middle east, Iraq to be precise...so yes, they would speak Arabic there...

    And frankly the writing is less Arabic, than Arabic-like...similar script, but different enough, IMO
    Posted 16 months ago by ~Pink Flamingo~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If Glitch devs are interested in a Glitch conlang ("constructed language," umbrella term for invented languages of all stripes), I'd be happy to connect them with active conlangers.

    The degree of inventedness can be discussed. For example, a common dodge in comic books (now that they're mostly typeset rather than hand-lettered) is to type English in a dingbat typeface. If all Glitch wants is such a typeface, that can be done. Figuring it out is like solving cryptoquotes.

    Obviously an entire invented language goes FAR beyond this... but as best I can tell, Glitch doesn't have much linguistic ambition, so keeping it simple works well enough. I do concur with The Cat Face that borrowing real-world languages and scripts still in active use can lead to unfortunate implications and consequences. It's an easy enough problem to avoid, so why not avoid it?
    Posted 16 months ago by Clumdalglitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Interesting that Ur is a Middle Eastern city. According to Wikipedia, Humbaba was a monstrous male giant from Mesopotamian mythology, Mab is a fairy queen who grants wish fulfillment in dreams in Shakespeare, and a Spriggan is grotesque sprite from English folklore.
    Posted 16 months ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • a dev response would be REALLY NICE right about now!
    Posted 16 months ago by Dr007 Subscriber! | Permalink
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