Topic

Curmugeonly: SDB stores? Rly?

I right a rant along these lines about every three months.

A hole in the Glitch design right now is the lack of reliable ongoing drivers of action.  There's all kinds of things to do, but outside of quests, there's not really any reason to do them.  Like, when people are like "where are moar quests?!" and "sandbox group!" those are responses to that.

In my opinion, though "moar quests" is kind of untenable (and wouldn't be really successful.)  Glitch quests do a good job of running you through game mechanics so that you know that they're there.  Writing "enough quests" would be a gigantic timesink on the part of the limited devs, and and wouldn't really solve anything.  Quests would eventually be about the same as "donate more of the things" - a bit of churn to get more iMG.

Upgrade cards, at least for me, we a bit of a bridge on this.  "What upgrades are there for me today?  Okay, I'll make enough iMG for *that*"  But eventually, it all comes down to "make more iMG or currants faster."

For a long time I've wanted to see official buy orders in Glitch.  Basically, imagine if there were a list of what other players were willing to pay for the things you can make.  I yearn to log into Glitch, check the Orders Board, and say "wow, look at the bid price for Girders (say) today!" and go about making some Girders.

Maybe they'd have the same problems that Quests and Upgrade Cards do (another grind for resources) but at least I'd feel like I was doing things for other players - that somewhere there was a player out there who was glad to be getting the thing they needed (and maybe another who'd been too slow to fill the order).  I'm heartened in this conclusion because of the enjoyment I've had trading emblems to make Icons.

But vending SDBs in Towers feels like exactly the opposite direction from that.  It's the auction house, but with less transparency and more hassle.  You can still only *sell* and only at a particular price.  The prices aren't going to be globally accessible or comparable,  so there'll be much less idea *how much* to sell things for, and the popularity process that's (in my opinion) showing up in resource loops is going to be heightened in terms of selling things.

I'm dismissing with contempt the idea of a "trading channel" as a solution for finding the prices for goods.  Advertised prices need to be *persistent* (like the prices in the AH) not *transient* (like chat entries in a channel).

Group Halls (as variants of Towers) might well ameliorate this somewhat.  Add Buying SDBs ("This SDB wants more Meat and will pay 8 currants per, out of its 5000 currants") and a market board in the Hall, and maybe we're somewhere.

Posted 5 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Some people really like the dramatic sigh. It also serves no purpose, here nor when my teenagers try to employ it. But carry on if it makes you happy.

    I'm pretty sure that I never threatened to "rage quit."  What I said is, "I have no interest in playing a game that penalizes me for playing certain aspects of the game." And having 100 skills released tomorrow would not do so. It would give me more options and it would force me to make some choices about what I want to do when. These are not penalties as described by Yarrow:

    "As a whole other concern, I feel like there should be some ongoing bonus/penalty to encourage specialization.  What if you brain over-capacity also effected your skill bonuses?  Mining IV takes you from - what 20 seconds to 4, right?  What if you had to give back up to half of that 16 seconds as you learn skills past capacity?"

    This is not a penalty based on perception. It is  an ACTUAL PENALTY that was proposed.

    I really don't care if people choose to specialize. I don't want to be FORCED to specialize. Capiche?

    Sorry, but anything that happens in other games is still irrelevant to this game. Maybe you have fun playing Farmville, but it has never held any interest for me. Right now, I'm choosing to play this game. I can't help but wonder, if that other game was so much fun for you, why are you  here?
    Posted 5 months ago by Shallawalla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There is already plenty of interdependence in this game - it's just that the way the game is now, many players are able to choose when and how often they want to interact and the degree of dependence upon others that they are willing to accept. You know, it is not an all-or-nothing scenario; 100% interdependence versus 100% single-player experience with no in-between. It's a matter of degree with many many shades of gray along the continuum. Some players prefer more single-play, others do not. Most of us are probably variable between degrees of one or the other depending upon our mood that day (as well as many other factors).

    Also, please note: I have never said, nor have I ever implied, that anyone who wants to do a lot of different Glitchy things without being constrained or penalized for it - that that means they want only to do ALL THE THINGS and be 100% solitary. Again, it's not an all-or-nothing thing. If anyone wishes to respond to anything that I say, please do - but please respond to what I actually say and not something that has been reductio ad absurdem'ed. (lol)

    As to Those Other Games that are so "successful" with constraints and penalties on players thus forcing them to make "meaningful choices", bravo for them. If those are more fun for you, that's great. Please do not assume that what is more fun for you is ipso facto more fun for everybody.

    ETA On meaningful choices: the example I gave earlier of me learning Blockmaking, disliking it and getting rid of it was me making a "meaningful choice". I had a rational basis for making that choice, which I never would have had if I had not been allowed to try it.

    The one thing that Glitch does NOT need to do, it seemeth unto me, is to make itself "better" by making itself more like Those Other Games. Those are already doing that. What Glitch needs to do to make itself "better" is to become more like itself.

    Vive la difference.
    Posted 5 months ago by Flowerry Pott Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  Having more interdependence would increase interaction.

    That's a pretty arrogant assumption, since it assumes that the only thing  that would happen if players were forced to specialize is that they would interact more.  Among some players, it would increase interaction.  Among other players, it would decrease interactions because they would play the game less.  

    Many Glitch players don't play other MMOs  exactly because of this forced interaction.  Glitch allows me to drop in and out of the game based on how I want to spend my free time.  Some days, I just make stuff.  Other days I run through other people's yards.  Other days, I get together with other players to achieve goals.  I like having a variety of skills that fit my escapist mood of the moment.  

    Games, for me, are an escape from daily stress.  If  I wanted to play other games that more closely mimicked real life and its stresses, I've got plenty to choose from.  Glitch attracts me because it is different from those other MMOs.
    Posted 5 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "...[players who are ] less worried about the health of the game and its ability to retain players than they are worried about being able to treat Glitch as a single player game with a chat room."

    For me, neither "the health of the game" nor "the ability of Glitch to retain players" will be improved if TS decides to make Glitch unfriendly to any substantial group of existing players. Make new friends but keep the old, &etc.

    Neither "the health of the game" nor "the ability of Glitch to retain players" is enhanced by using the forums to insult and marginalize players who happen to disagree with you.

    ETA http://www.inc.com/karl-and-bill/its-cheaper-to-keep-em.html "Growing businesses tend to spend so much of their time and money acquiring new customers that they often overlook their best source of growth: retaining and growing their existing customer base... It’s cheaper, easier, and more effective to retain current customers than it is to acquire new ones."
    Posted 5 months ago by Vocable Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If anyone is interested, there's a group that will serve as a directory of player's street shops once towers are released.
    Posted 5 months ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Fact is pretty simple: you'd probably still have plenty of fun doing whatever it is you want to do even if you couldn't do it all with one account."

    Oh, to be able to make the forums play the "you screwed up (meditation)" buzzer sound.  What *I* enjoy is having the option of whether or not I interact with other people.  Sometimes I don't want to, and I enjoy self-sufficiency.  I can NOT do that with my own alts -- that gives me a significant advantage by having multiple accounts and would get me smacked with a banhammer (and rightfully so).

    Edit: Just to clarify, the issue here is "significant and unfair advantage".  If there's a penalty for over-generalizing, then having a second character (or third, or whatever) to get around that penalty is unfair and significant.
    Posted 5 months ago by Magic Monkey Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I suggested some more interdependence, and people are yelling at me like I suggested killing babies. Nice. 
    Posted 5 months ago by Reirei Umezaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i was wondering where this coat came from!
    *shakes pointy finger at chaosakita and smirks*  :D
    Posted 5 months ago by RainyRain Subscriber! | Permalink
  • See this forum has never been good with negativity, and I think this is an example. I said I wanted more interdependence. All I got were replies that acted as if I was a SERIOUS HARDCORE gamer that wanted to ruin everybody's fun. I am definitely not that. I really like the solo part of the game, and it's a lot of fun. However, I feel like the multiplayer part of the game is a bit lacking. While the social part of the game is nice, I don't feel that there's any reason to interact with anybody else economically. Sometimes I might buy some stuff from the auction because I'm lazy or because I can't make something yet. Selling to the latter is not a sustainable strategy. While it might be convenient that I can do everything as well as everybody else given enough time, I think it's kind of unfulfilling to be so indistinguishable. I think specialization would be a form of self-expression instead of being the poor man's version of someone's who played the game longer.  
    Posted 5 months ago by Reirei Umezaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And unlike other games, the vast majority of the non-social gameplay of Glitch is based completely around the economy. So if you don't get this right, like the earlier poster said, you just get a big chatroom. If I wanted that, I would go play Second Life.
    Posted 5 months ago by Reirei Umezaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well that's why I got that 'thing' I've been working on. I refer to it as The Directory, because it is NOT a route.  diave beat me here, lol..As it stands Home Streets are just two clicks away.  And it wouldn't be a chat room, more of a help desk.  And if that failed, I wouldn't have it open.  Friend me, I am IMable ;p
    Posted 5 months ago by Mr. iOuS kEiPhErs Subscriber! | Permalink
  • chaosakita -- I don't see anything really directed at you.  I see a lot of people expressing themselves passionately and emphatically stating why they don't like the idea, but that doesn't inherently mean that they are putting you in the role of hardcore-fun-ruiner.  It just means that they feel strongly about making sure that they don't feel forced in to interacting with others when they don't want to.  If people did give offense, I apologize on their behalf (and/or my own, if I did).  

    What some have suggested, and I support, is that we have more reasons added to make people *want* to play interdependently rather than ones that require them to *have* to play that way.  (Adding "help mine/dig/etc" is an example of something in the game that came in and encouraged working together without forcing it.)
    Posted 5 months ago by Magic Monkey Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It would be nice to have a stock-market-esque chart stating the average prices of everything that's currently on sale. Just so we know what's the average price. It's either that, or running around, sweating paranoia, checking out people's shops, and changing your prices non-stop.

    This SDB idea is really neat in my opinion. You can keep a list of places you like to visit for their fair prices or whatever, have a break from the monotony of endless mining/gathering, and play the 'account balancing' game. Or even, you know, make a gallery. 

    Of course, it may turn the whole thing into a total game of economy. For example, I might turn my home into a giant farm and sell produce to restaurants and be squashed flat with the stress. However, I might actually have fun doing that. The 'order board' idea is really neat. Maybe as a side thing, or maybe people can use the already existing mail service...

    But yes, I have to wonder about the Auctions. I'm still hoping for it to resemble an actual Auction more, actually, but it just seems to contradict the SDB vending system. And what about the in game vendors?
    Posted 5 months ago by KitkatCat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I posted an idea in the forums of an option that could make the process more personable for everyone.  Buy/Set Till
    Posted 5 months ago by Mr. iOuS kEiPhErs Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The most obvious common factor of "massive online gaming" is not players trading goods but players killing NPCs and each other. I don't want to see glitchen start killing and getting rewarded for killing. I don't much care what mechanisms arrive to promote trading goods but I don't want to be forced to stop using something that I like and that works for me because some other players want me as a forced-to-be customer.
    Posted 5 months ago by Vocable Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think specialization would be a form of self-expression

    And there is nothing that stops you from playing the game that way.  You can express yourself all you want by specializing all you want.  

    If this is your preferred gaming style, you can already play this way. 

    Forcing other people to play this way is making the game not-fun for them. 
    Posted 5 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm seriously put off by the idea of being forced to specialize and getting penalties if I don't.  I only have an hour or two a day to play Glitch.  If other people have more time, I'm very excited for them, but one of the things I've loved most about Glitch is the fact that I *can* just drop in for fifteen minutes to harvest and replant my gardens, feed and nibble/milk/squeeze my critters, and go throw currants at my icons.  Sure, those days don't net me a lot of iMG, but a huge part of the reason I've actually stuck around in Glitch (rather than WOW, SMT Imagine, EVE, EverCrack and its children, etc.) is that the game doesn't penalize you for being a casual player.  Some days I have a couple hours to do the serious stuff like mine a lot or make squillions of beans to donate for iMG, but many days I don't, and part of the reason I bought a subscription was because I love being able to *be* that casual player.
    Posted 5 months ago by Lassarina Subscriber! | Permalink
  • + WindBorn & Lassarina & Flowerry Pott

    I can't play every day.  I work 8 hours a day, I commute about an hour and a half every day, and I have a lot of other commitments on my time.  I really like being able to learn as many skills as possible so I can explore Ur as fully as my little glitch can - and I love that I don't have to specialize to do it. 

    I completely understand that other players have a different playstyle.  More power to them, and I hope the game makes them as happy as it does me.   I really value that there are a lot of different ways to play the game, and I'd like to keep all those ways open for everyone.

    Flowerry Pott said: The one thing that Glitch does NOT need to do, it seemeth unto me, is to make itself "better" by making itself more like Those Other Games. Those are already doing that. What Glitch needs to do to make itself "better" is to become more like itself.

    This x1000. 
    Posted 5 months ago by Celeloriel Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just want to put in on the "specialization" front this

    So long as I can be as good at everything all at once as someone who specialized in any one thing, then it will pretty much always be easier to do all my crafting myself.  The only value to be had in crafted/collected things will be the convenience of having them in 10 minutes, versus the iMG/enjoyment of making them yourself.  (And frankly, I'm not sure if there's many things a dedicated player couldn't make from scratch in 10 minutes at the moment.)

    The flip side of the "bonus/penalty" coin would be: what if the bonus you get now from your skills was just what you get if you're at or above 100% brain capacity?  But if you were under capacity they up-to-double.  So if *all* you do is Mining, you get the bonuses of Mining IV almost-doubled - i.e. mining takes you 2 seconds, and the chances you find a gem are almost doubled.  So you'd be a rock-chunk *machine*, and you'd only ever donate gems, but totally reliant on others for food and cocktails and tool repair.

    I think that'd rock (heh) but if you don't, then ignore the extra bonus and be a JOATs and continue as your are.

    But right now, there's no game incentive to cooperate - it makes much more sense to do pretty much everything yourself.  At some point someone will work out the absolute fastest queue to learn all the skills in and anyone who plays for - 3 months, 6 months? - will have all the skills, and it's a solitaire game with chat and parties.
    Posted 5 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, and this is kind of unrelated to the current direction of the conversation, but at the moment we do have a sort of buy order type function for the auctions? It's limited in ways, and is a third party script for Chrome, but here it is.

    Ping's Auction Sniper :)
    Posted 5 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The biggest problem with the Auction Sniper is that the Buy Orders aren't visible - and even if they were (there was another tool that did make its orders visible) they're not visible to everyone...
    Posted 5 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ah, I see what you mean. At least I think so. Are you saying that because they're hidden there's no way to personally fill them? IE there's no visible demand?
    Posted 5 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Exactly - Buy Orders would be nice because they'd be an ongoing drive to action.  Like little quests that other players set.  "Make 100 girders - reward 5000c"  If they're hidden, that (imo huge) value is lost.
    Posted 5 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, I'd have to agree. The concept of going up to a large notepost set into Groddle Forest Junction and grabbing a job or seven off the board and filling the orders sounds viscerally appealing to the industrial manufacturer in me. 

    PS I really hope there wouldn't be glitchen expecting anyone to make them 100 girders for 5000c ;) What a rip off!
    Posted 5 months ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
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