Topic

Follow-the-leader mining in Ajaya Bliss

I never liked mining throughout beta. I would spend the least amount of time doing it as possible--I hated it. It was boring. Stand in one place and whack on a rock over and over again. Oooh, fun <sarcasm>. 

After the co-op mining rewards were recently increased to the point of making group mining actually worthwhile, I tried out Ajaya Bliss and loved it! It was like a party in there with everyone having so much fun, and the mining was no longer repetitive and boring because a single rock would be finished off in one whack, and then I could go bouncing around, searching for the next rock, or chatting with the rest of the party-goers. 

A new style of mining has emerged today, because someone figured out the order in which the sparkly rocks regenerate. This means that everyone knows exactly which rock will spawn next, and there is no longer any reason to jump around and be on the look-out in between rocks. The place doesn't seem like a party any more--the "leader", who has the list on hand, tells everyone which rock to go to next. Everyone goes to that area. Then, they all stand there and wait, motionless, until the rock regenerates. They are then told which rock to move on to next, and off they go. If you go to a different rock, you are chastised. It seems alot less fun now--I liked it better when it was more chaotic. Now, it is once again just a bunch more of the same: stand in one spot mining for a little bit, then stand in another pre-ordained spot waiting. No thought involved--just go where the leader tells you to and stand there, and don't go out of line or you'll be yelled at.

I was disturbed by something someone said to me today, which is what prompted me to write this: I am a level 2 miner. I mine VERY slowly. I tried doing the follow-the-leader thing properly many times. I went where I was told. I waited... but it was hard to see exactly when the rock regenerated because a huge number of people were all standing right in front of where the rock appeared, blocking my view... The best sign that it was there was when others started to mine. So, I frantically try to hit the rock, succeeding towards the end when most everyone had already started. I got 1 to maybe 10 bonus chunks with around 30 people mining. This is pitiful. Even more pitiful is that my slow mining time meant that I was still mining that first rock after everyone else had finished it, moved on to the next rock, and finished that one off too. So, I get one whack in on the first rock, get a handful of bonus chunks out of it, and everyone else gets to finish off 2 rocks in the same time. I realized this was a waste of my time, so whenever 2 rocks spawned next to eachother I would move to the second one (which the group would be moving to in a few seconds), and start there so I could begin my excruciatingly slow mining in time to actually get some benefit from the other players when they arrived and helped me. Still, I only got one whack in while everyone else finished off two whole rocks, but at least I could get 50 bonus chunks instead of 1 to 10. 

I was yelled at for doing this (along with around 2 other people that were doing the same). When I explained why I was doing it, I was told that low level miners should go mine somewhere else! Unbelievable! As a history lesson to everyone: these new high co-op benefits were implemented specifically to benefit low level miners, because people were complaining that it was unfair for a high level miner to come by and finish off a whole rock that a lower level miner was slowly working on, only giving the low level miner 1 bonus chunk in the process, but depleting the whole rock before they could even get their second swing in. The bonuses are higher for low level miners: it makes sense for them to want to co-mine, and no one should tell them that they should mine by themselves if they can't keep up with the "big-boys". This is not the welcoming and inclusive atmosphere of Glitch that I'm used to.

I can't wait until I get through Better Learning V so I can learn the other mining skills and be able to mine a decent amount of rock by myself, without having to rely on the help of people with that attitude.

Tl;dr: Sheep following a leader around to specific regions where rocks are pre-known to respawn is less fun, and the draconian rule of "play my way or the highway" will turn off alot of players, especially low level ones that aren't benefiting unless they are one of the first to start a rock.

Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • But what's also funny is that one of the lizards in the bureaucratic hall yelled at me today.   I was there for papers but the lizard was standing behind an afk person and I couldn't click on him to answer.  He barked something like "your turn!  use it or lose it!"
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think, perhaps, we need another way to make money easily. Once you get high enough in level in the cooking skills and AK skills and gardening, you can make some money, but most people jump to mining right away in order to make money fast, because, in the end, it's mining that brings in the money. This also means that some skills are being mastered by a lot fewer people at the get-go. Which leads to problems for further development (streets deserted of animals, and, when we get to them, fewer people able to help with street projects and group halls).

    Mining is a collection-based skill that brings in the money. Ways to nerf it? Make the skill tree tougher to get through if you're going for all of the mining skills. Make it more beneficial to craft something, rather than just collect it and sell it right away.

    Add book-binding. ;)

    I think a huge issue right now, as far as mining goes, is the absolute over-crowding of every area where mining can happen (aside from the streets with just metal chunks). You can't be a solitary miner because of all the people trying to strike it rich by mining who come through and take all of the rocks on the three rock street you're on far away from any of the action because they can't find rocks in the mines anymore. No matter what your mining level is, it's impossible to mine alone. While that kind of situation can stimulate cooperation (like was happening in AB), it can also frustrate people who don't wish to play cooperatively (which isn't a bad way to play, really).

    So what do you do with that? Maybe limit the amount of times someone can mine a certain rock per game day? Make them move on to another rock after they've whacked at one a certain number of times, regardless of how many times it's respawned? People less skilled in mining should always get less rock than people more skilled. That's just the way things should work. But say the higher-skilled players can get ten whacks in on a rock, where a lower-skilled player can only get four or five in...that would definitely motivate people to move up that tree (works for gardening) and would cut down on the overcrowding (people would have to move on eventually because they wouldn't be allowed to pick that rock anymore for the remainder of the glitch day). It wouldn't diminish the cooperation in places like AB either. It would just put the ever-evolving group of people on a sort of revolving door in and out. "I can't mine these rocks anymore. I'll be back in three game hours at the new day."

    And now I've spent way too much time thinking about something I do as little as possible right now. :) 
    Posted 15 months ago by Quirk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 1) Thanks for clarification Stoot :)

    2) Please don't take this the wrong way Glitches, but some people are complaining about a single room in a whole world of rocks... saying things like if I want to be able to mine any rock I should be able to. I agree, that's fine - in fact come to Ajaya Bliss and do that as well - I certainly won't say anything to you - and if the horde descends on your rock - great you will get a huge bonus. But for people saying what's wrong with exploring and mining and going slow etc - the answer in nothing, but how is complaining about 1 room got anything to do with these things?

    The change has actually made it worse for people who enjoy to play this way because half of those who liked it in AB are now out in the world stealing your rocks from you...

    +1 for bonus caps btw, and Mining Halls would be awesome, just hope it doesn't take a long time to implement. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Furyangel Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A few things to add to this already poorly beaten dead horse....

    I TOTALLY agreed with striatic (shocker, right?) about this 

    "btw, the efficiency seemed anything but antisocial to me. since people didn't have their fingers constantly occupied jumping and searching for the new rock, there was a lot more talking and discussion going on while people were still mining at the same rate"

    since now that things changed, I don't talk nearly as much....

    The other issue I have? It should be more difficult to gain entry to Bliss. Why's there even a key anymore if you can just teleport in? (Not talking about getting the key, getting in, setting a teleport- talking about the fact that now you can just teleport straight in- no search involved.) 
    Posted 15 months ago by NutMeg Botwin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The following is a technical discussion, written primarily in hopes that it may be useful for the devs:

    It seems to me Ajaya Bliss fits the definition of a multi-person prisoner's dilemma game.[1,2] I'm not able to do a formal analysis, but informal observation of Ajaya suggests that there is now a "Nash equilibrium" of everybody running around and engaging in individualistic, opportunistic mining -- which produces suboptimal results for all, and thus frustrates those who are of an analytical bent and recognize this.  Even with the parameters as they were previously, forming an effective coalition required convincing nearly everyone to join (and tolerating higher gains by those who did not).  With the present parameters, players can, in theory, collaborate by agreeing to work as a group on just one rock at a time -- but the limited view each player has of the room and the need to move quickly to get in just one stoke will cause some players to split off, even when they are not meaning to do so.  This will sometimes be seen as a deliberate uncooperative move, which will undermine collaboration and, mostly likely, lead to some hard feelings.

    Also, to add a personal note, while  I understand the importance of game balance and the concomitant need to make changes, the sudden change in Ajaya did make me feel as if I were a subject in a psych experiment. It was weird.
    Posted 15 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like your post, Splendora and....

    ...you are subject in MY psych experiment!  How ya feeling?  Um...I need to do a quick blood draw.
    Posted 15 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I never mined too much in AB in beta, even then it was too chaotic for me.  Now it is super, super, super chaotic but .....it is such an easy way to get sparkly.  I sat in one spot for ten minutes and left with over 300 sparkly.  Seems profitable to me.  What I don't like are the same people harassing me and mocking me because I choose not to cooperate in AB. 

    First of all, it gives me a freaking migraine to jump around like that. I tried it for two minutes and had to get out.  And just because I don't cooperate in AB does not mean I can not go in there and it does not mean I am not a cooperative player.  I give if someone needs something, I thank people with gifts if they help me with a quest, I ask before I take something on the ground, I chat with people on the Subway, transport people to AB while they are waiting for the key. 

    But being bullied by a bunch of people who spend "all their time" in AB is not fun.  I just ignore them and do my thing.

    I think there should be a cool down period for AB like the ancestral lands.  In for ten minutes and then a nice cool down.  It would give other players a chance to experience AB for themselves.

    And like in the Ancestral lands the rocks could even randomly spawn extra time tokens while mining, so a person could be gifted a few seconds more or whatever. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Meia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've observed lots of silent forms of co operation in the game.   They are not as obvious as forms of cooperation as the AB follow-the-leader style is,  but they still qualify.   For example, in the ancestral lands, if two people are on a street and one of them leaves for a new street, if there are a choice of streets to go to I believe most people will choose the street that has a chance of being empty.  They won't follow the other person to the street that person left for.  It doesn't pay.
    Sometimes I scrape barnacles with another player in the bogs.  Its not a planned thing, but if I see someone scraping barnacles and there are lots, I'll go scrape with them then go to the next one and wait a moment until they arrive so that we both scrape together and get a barnacle each.     I also use sparkle powder once in awhile on the mining groups if I get extra bonus from them.
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Meia:  that's a good idea about random time gifts.  It would force some people to leave the mining group  and challenge  the group to adjust to new people joining the group.  It would make it difficult for mining "gangs" to form.   Mining gangs with gang leaders is not really a big problem now but it could be if groups get attached to having all the same friends to mine with.
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I thought Zombeki had a really really great idea.  Why not reward people for mining together in other ways than with bonus chunks?  It won't make mining over powered, but would provide an incentive for players to co-operate and work together.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well said.. Meia |
    Posted 15 months ago by Cryztal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Meia: I rather like that idea. People could have to leave because they got too much sparkly dust in their eyes...
    Posted 15 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hate Ajaya Bliss I go zonkers in there, everybody thinks there the boss.  As far as I'm concerned they could just put a lock on it with everyone stuck inside and let them all go to hell for a while.  Group mining isn't right for me and when I do try and just mine by myself some goof comes along and just has to help grr.  

    All group mining should be done in Ajaya Bliss and the rest of the world can mine alone or with one other person but when more than that joins in the rock is gone, it doesn't matter if you get one or 10 extra pieces of rock once its gone its gone and you have to go look for another one.  
    Posted 15 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like Meia's idea, but I think if it were implemented there would have to be WAY more places to mine outside Ajaya with sparkly then there currently are
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i don't have a problem with group mining, even in Ajaya.  this is the deal:  ask first.  that's all.  ask.  it's about courtesy.
    Posted 15 months ago by audiomodder Subscriber! | Permalink
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