Topic

Griefing, trolling and things to come: Not to be doomsayer or anything but...

That Kid Tyler wrote in another thread the following:
"I feel like any griefing action will immediately become the "uncool" thing to do, and as a result of the Glitch culture here the grief would be so limited that deliberately doing anything unhelpful or disrespectful just wouldn't be fun for anyone who has had any time at all to be immersed in the game. A sort of conditioning-type thing."

I started to write a response but realized it is something I've been wanting to bring up for awhile. I don't bring this up because I am a doomsayer or that I think everything good will be destroyed or that I am a advocate of the status quo/closed world. I am VERY excited for launch and to see how things will change. But they will change. I honestly hope TKT is right. I just seriously doubt it.

Three of the reasons people are so well behaved here are two things that will change when the game launches:
(1) The population is relatively small.
(2) Because the beta is closed/invite only, it is like a gift. Even if it is still free, it feels like it is something to be respected because being able to play is rare.
(3) The world is open for limited periods and, like 2, feels like it should be treasured.

(These are not the only reasons. I think there are many other reasons this game attracts pleasant but these are the one that will change at launch.)

Number (1) is just a a thing. The more people playing, the bigger chance one or more of them will be a jerk with spare time on their hands to be jerky.

Number (2) is an interesting one for me. The "I have been chosen and am honored" perceived value of an "invite" will go away and will be replaced by a completely open door. 

The only thing that sometimes replaces that feeling is if there is a price at the door. But the game is free. When the only price of admission becomes an email account (also free and basically anonymous), some folks will value as nothing. There is a whole theory that there is a perfect price point for things that has very little to do with the value of the item or service: if you charge too much people feel ripped off BUT if you charge too little people feel like they are getting something of little value and appreciate it less. I am NOT advocating Tiny Speck charges a play fee. Just pointing out that some folks will treat the game (and those playing) poorly because they will see no value.

And number (3)... When opened 24/7 some folks will get bored and find other ways to entertain themselves. Some of these ways will be less fun than others for everyone else.

I would love to believe that social pressure would keep folks from griefing. But we all know the internet. The non-face-to-face nature of it allows some folks to toss empathy out the window. They don't FEEL that the other players are real people with real emotions. Or they sometimes forget. Or something. You can try to tell them. You can try to show them how much you care about this thing we call Glitch.

HOWEVER the thing about griefing (and trolling and the like) is that the more "uncool" it is, the more entertaining many find it. It is (usually) about getting a reaction. The larger the reaction, the happier they are. And if they feel the emotional reaction is out of proportion with the subject (in this case, "just a game... and a weird one at that"), the more they will relish it. 

Griefers hate "rules." If a rule is not enforced by the program itself, they will break it. The more "player enforced" a "rule" (or "code of behavior" or "set the ethics") is, the more they will break it... just to see folks get upset. Some of the thinking goes like this: "Who the hell are you to tell me what to do? Are you part of the company? Who gave you the authority to tell me crap?" The more "bossy" a player is, the more a player say "this is the way it is done" and certainly the moment a player pulls out any sort of pseudo-cred ("This is how we do things. I should know. I was tester when it was alpha."), the more griefers will go after them.

This sort of reaction to rules extends to "official" rules too. If there is a loop hole they will find it. Even if there is a policy of against some action, if it is not enforced by the programming itself, they will break it. "If you didn't want me doing that, you should make it so that I can't." (And even if the programmers do, they will find anyway they can to break it.)

Tiny Speck can boot people... but unless they are asking for credit cards at the door, some griefers will come back. All it takes is a new email address. As long as they can make people mad, they'll be back.

Things that do make it less interesting to them:
1) Being ignored.
2) Being laughed off.
3) Being welcomed and accepted... even for their destructive actions.

Personally, I am a fan of 3... but it is the most work.

(There will also be people who post things in the forums just to get a reaction. Some will be just dumb. Some will probably be clever and just probable enough that people believe it. Some will be entertaining... if you realize it is a 'joke.')

I can almost GUARANTEE that with in a month of the open launch the following will happen:
- A group will get together and poison every single tree they can in the shortest time possible.
- Certain streets will become PACKED with animals of every sort.
- Because people have said it is "poor manners", certain folks will (1) purposely mind rocks only half way and (2) purposely find rocks other are mining at and mind them.
- bags lying on the street filled with piggy plop (which it not actually griefing... I could use a Pig Poop Bag).
- Notes with obscenities. And hate speech.

Why am I writing all this? Not entirely sure. I think I fear that the rapid change when it comes will sour the experience for many. I worry that some will get so angry and so upset... and that will just add flame to the fire. I know that the community will change. I expect folks will group up into clearer bunches. I am okay (and excite) about change.

Thank you.

(PS - Why have I given griefing and trolling so much thought? Well, I am an ex-troll. Never griefed. For some reason I drew a line between game experience and forums. I could tell you a 100 reasons why at the time it seemed okay and how the "tone" of my trolling was more playful/impish than hateful... but it was still trolling.)

Posted 19 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • haha,strcat,you would. ;)
    Posted 19 months ago by ~Scilly~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stri - read my whole post carefully!?  I am of the 'treat with kindness' school.  Failing that I ignore and retreat.

    Maybe you live in a beautiful world, sadly I don't.  Every day I meet people who deliberately cause problems and difficulties for others for the sheer 'fun' of it.  This kind of behaviour will occur in Glitch at some time.  Just because I feel angry about their behaviour don't assume that I am 'violent'  I am actually enormously tolerant.  Also, notice that I say that I am angry about 'their behaviour', this does not mean that I condemn the person, just the behaviour.

     It is a natural, protective, human quality to be angry, the human requirement is that one is honest about it and deals with it without violence.   Maybe you have a different value of the meaning of "evil-doers" from me.  I mean people who act simply to cause harm and grief to others.  I agree with you that, in the long-term, Glitch is not a game for people who behave in that way, I think they will not stay long, but such behaviour will occur and will hurt others.  Why pretend it won't?

    I wonder which part of my post you interpreted as my wanting to launch a 'holy fucking crusade'?  Was it the part where I said I would give them a beer?  Or was it the part where I said I would ignore them?  Neither of these actions seem crusade-like to me. YMMV.

    I have found that being prepared for things, even things that might not happen, gives me the ability to deal thoughtfully with events, rather than just 'shooting from the hip' (if you will excuse a rather violent metaphor) without having given the matter due consideration.  Preparedness is never pointless IMV
    Posted 19 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can tell you what happened when Faunasphere went live.  There was a great influx of players which is to be expected.  The game went live in August 2009.  There were many young people who signed up which was not against the TOS but they were supposed to be supervised by parents and seldom were.  By the holidays we were having problems.  We could block certain actions such as trades, etc. but by the holiday season there were beggars and stalkers everywhere.  Some players were followed "home".  Fortunately you could not pick up anything in another player's home.  Still, a few enterprising thieves did figure out how to steal anything they wanted and several spheres were emptied.  The begging was annoying and sometimes got to the point that it was difficult for some people to play. 

    The Devs took action and blocked a number of players from the Forums and then from the game.  I personally know of one person who was blocked from both but returned under 3 or 4 aliases before finally disappearing.  That person was also blocked from BFG.  Not a mean person but an obviously ill person who I hope is receiving help (I met her in the BFG Forums where she was first banned). 

    Despite blocking and banning, there were problems from the opening in Aug. 2009 to the closing in March 2011.  I was not bothered though I did have a stalker who followed me around the Worlds and even to my sphere but was polite and tried to hide.  Gave me a smile, actually, to see the little Squeaker (a small hamster like animal) peeking out at me from behind a tree - LOL!  Most people did not have such a benign stalker.

    The more a person had, the more they were harassed by these "kids".  I suspect that not all were children but they behaved like it.  Most of the children I met had parents who also played and they were well mannered.

    The few times I was harassed, I just went elsewhere.  If that did not work, I quit playing for a while.  There are not many things you can do about rude players.  The Devs will have to figure out some way to handle these problems and I suspect that they already have plans because they know what might happen.
    Posted 19 months ago by Brib Annie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Don't feed the trolls! That is the best policy. That means, block them and then ignore them. Trolls want to be talked about in global chat and in the forums, they want people yelling at them. If we could all as a community stand together and ignore them, they would get bored and go away.
    Posted 19 months ago by FrankenPaula Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hear Hear! Very true FrankenPaula =)
    Posted 19 months ago by ~Scilly~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Cassandria
    "My gut instinct is to punch them [trolls] out!"


    In case you don't remember, you said that. This is what led me to give you the kindly advice of finding other ways to deal with anger other than violence. My comment about a crusade is derived from your despicable "us and them" mentality. A war is a war regardless of the methods, whether you combat trolls with insults, deprivation of attention, or kindness. You are still treating them as an enemy that has to be bested and defeated in some way which is, in my opinion, ignorant. Seek to understand and empathize with them rather than upset them by ruining their little games! If you are being kind to someone just to spite them and make them go away, well that isn't very kind now is it? Once more: spend some time in contemplation. 
    Posted 19 months ago by strcat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What part of 'gut instinct' indicates an intention to act?  My next sentence surely contradicts any possible interpretation of violence, and, indeed, shows how I deal with it. 

    I wonder how you deal with deliberate, hurtful,  negative behaviour?  Since being kind, ignoring it or removing myself from the situation are all seen as 'crusading'?  What would you have me do to someone trying to hurt me?  Sadly I do understand them, and I can empatise to a certain extent, although I find it hard to see any pleasure in hurting others or upseting them for 'fun'. 

    I would be happy if you could tell me what action to take when someone comes up to me in the game and tries to upset or hurt me?  Not some vague contemplative waffle, but an action which you would not see as 'crusading'.  I have suggested giving them something nice as a good example, or moving away.  What will you do? What do you think I should I actually do?
    Posted 19 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Exhibit A? Great opportunity to practice 'agree to disagree and walk away'.

    I'm all for the 'ignore it' approach, but it's naive to think it will make the problems go away. The problem will remain. I think what OP is attempting to do in this thread is encourage others to be prepared to use their set of Emotional Teflon Armor, and be aware such a device might be required. Also, an encouragement to not respond and not make a big deal of things publicly as it only increases perceived 'bad' behaviors. Nothing more, nothing less. 

    A key part to building a solid player community is education... knowing is half the battle ; D
    Posted 19 months ago by Travinara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Travinara, like I said before, some people just can't be educated.
    Posted 19 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • OK Travinara.  Agree.  Everyone entitled to their opinion!

    I do think it is a problem to be considered; how it is dealt with depends on the individual.  Testing has given us some idea of what might happen, maybe has helped some of us to think through how to respond (or not to respond!)

    From what I have heard FS players have had to deal with plenty of stuff like that, so are experienced.  I hope to learn from them.
    Posted 19 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Cassandria why are you so fixated on what I think and say? Unfortunately I do not have all the answers. Each person must take a different road to accept and understand the things and people which they deem undesirable and evil. How do I personally deal with those who you say wish me harm? I do not think of them as wishing me harm, I think of them as trying to have fun. I make friends with them, for they are people, and I like people. One of my favorite quotes, which is often attributed to a man by the name of Yeshua Ha-Nozri:

    "There are no evil people on earth."
    Posted 19 months ago by strcat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for those helpful suggestions Stri.  Maybe Yeshua Ha-Nozi had never known some of the people I have known.  He was lucky.
    Posted 19 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ps.  If I was to be contentious, I might say 'If you don't have the answers, why do you keep telling me what to do?'

    But I would not want to be unfriendly. ;-)
    Posted 19 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "radiates good mood - everyone around receives +10 mood"
    Posted 19 months ago by coolbettycakes Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm all for blocking.  Block then report if the behavior is especially egregious.  We've already experienced some of this behavior in Alpha/Beta.  No doubt there will be more when the game goes live.  As far as I'm concerned it would be great if the game DIDN'T go live until the kids were back in school.
    Posted 19 months ago by Marla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Excellent post, Lord Bacon-o! However, I've seen a lot of Prophets of Doom (tm) in this thread who think only the worst. Let's keep in mind that not only will Glitch likely attract its share of trolls, but it will also attract genuine, good people! There ought to be enough newcomers for people to form their own, happy social circles and ignore the trolls. Many of the things that trolls can do are annoying, but they're hardly game-breaking. If we all work together to create a pleasant, friendly community, then those seeking respite from any trolls who may appear won't have to look far. Wouldn't that be lovely?
    Posted 19 months ago by Vexia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I experimentally blocked a player, and was still able to see what the person said in global chat.  A friend accidentally blocked me, and I wasn't able to send her any messages, splank her, hug her, etc.  When you click on a player, a menu comes up with a long list of options; most of those options disappear when you have been blocked.  It's possible that the global chat thing was a bug, so I'll experiment with it more during the next test.
    Posted 19 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My concern over griefing has also stopped me from subscribing. I have a slightly different take on it though. While yes there will always be people around who enjoy interrupting others lives with troubling behavior, there are some things that can be done to limit these inclinations.

    There are two groups of griefers - those who will behave that way no matter what and those who feel like they are worth less than those around them and react to this with inappropriate behavior born of frustration.

    I was quite excited when I read that the subscription options were available. When I clicked on the link I was brought up short when I saw that there were three different options and the number of votes associated with each of those options. With these subscription options Tiny Speck has purposely created a game with four very separate classes.

    Two classes are hard enough to balance. My personal applicable experience in games with this class system include both EQ2 and LOTRO.

    I was in EQ2 before SOE added the F2P option. In response to their community's requests SOE decided to place the F2P players on a separate server group apart from the P2P players. While this has caused problems in that people can no longer play a trial of the game and play those same characters when they choose to subscribe it has worked to prevent a disruptive class system on their long time P2P servers.

    I was also in LOTRO before they added the F2P option. Turbine chose to combine the F2P and the P2P on the same servers. I remember that there was originally a great deal of concern that having these two separate classes of players together on the same servers might cause a problem. As is universally known the LOTRO community is a very mature and kind group of people and it has worked out, but only because the old-timers made a conscious effort to include the F2P players and not make them feel as though they were less valuable to the community.

    The important distinction between these environments and Glitch is that every voice and opinion has equal value. When changes are proposed every voice is listened to equally, be they F2P or not. In Glitch those who pay the most will have the most highly valued opinions. Perhaps it is the fact that I'm from the U.S. ( though we are far from the birthplace of democracy) but I can't begin to put into words how troubling that is to me.

    I truly could not care less about the amount of credits or teleport tokens each account has in Glitch as anyone can purchase them with or without a subscription. Anyone who pays for a LOTRO subscription ($10 US if purchased in three month blocks) also receives $5 worth of game credits to use in the store. It is important to point out though that everything in the game can be earned as a subscriber unlike the credit-only items offered here in Glitch. The Turbine store exists simply for those who wish to spend less time earning things and more money buying them. As a subscriber to LOTRO I don't feel that my opinions have any greater validity compared to those who are F2P players and Turbine has not stated any differently.

    Aside from the voting system simply being troubling I am also concerned about the griefing that will result from this four-class system. Essentially there will be three groups of Glitch players whose opinions will have less value than the highest paying players. The concern that both the EQ2 community and the LOTRO community expressed was that the F2P players would react with griefing as a result of having access to less in the game. Now imagine how people will feel when they are guaranteed to have a less valuable opinion than those who pay Tiny Speck more money.

    There are two things that game companies can do to discourage griefing, one is to provide their players with ways to protect themselves from griefers. The other is to consciously and purposefully construct an environment that does not inherently encourage conflict between player groups.

    As for the tools with which players can protect themselves, there have been terrific suggestions so far. I add my suggestion of some version of how Linden Lab deals with problem residents in SL.

    In my opinion Tiny Speck would have to change the votes associated with their subscription model in order to eliminate the second cause of griefers. I can only hope that this testing of Glitch includes testing of the subscription system as well and that our opinions will be listened to.

    tl:dr version: While I can afford the highest level of subscription I know that I can not afford to have that subscription make my opinions more valuable than the opinions of my friends.
    Posted 19 months ago by Dandilion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't want it to seem like I'm focusing on the worst. I have no doubt in my mind that I'll find awesome people in the game (as I already have) and that mostp players will likely be rather pleasant to come across. But when there is a concern, such as really hard-hitting trolls, there does need to be a way to discuss and address it and threads like this one are ideal for te purpose of preparing for such an event. Thinking only positively isn't helpful. Thinking realistically, on the other hand, is.
    Posted 19 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dandilion, I see your words but I don't really understand the implication.

    Yes, with more votes, higher paying players do have more say in the way Glitch evolves. This seems entirely appropriate.

    The logical jump from that to "and therefore lower paying classes will naturally hate and revile and grief the highest payers" seems ... unlikely, to me. Perhaps I'm just not experienced enough in MMO things to have seen the effect before?

    As Bacon-o and strcat have ably commented, griefers can take any real or imagined excuse to grief - but the excuse is just an excuse, and the purpose *is* the griefing or trolling and getting a reaction.
    Posted 19 months ago by Spong Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Spong

    (This isn't quoted from my post:

    "and therefore lower paying classes will naturally hate and revile and grief the highest payers" - maybe you are thinking of another post?)

    Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post - I realize it ended up being pretty long :)

    And I appreciate you sharing your opinion. I agree that there will always be some people who will set out to annoy and frustrate those around them and that there really is no way to prevent that. However I believe, as do most major game companies (based on their actions and policies), that there are ways to prevent some of the negative behavior. I didn't state that they would go after the highest level of subscriber. In fact I have noticed that it is their fellow F2P players that the griefers go after because those are the players who are less able to insulate themselves compared to high level subscribers.

    The teleportation tokens are a perfect example:

    Now that we have seen the difference between the teleportation skills vs teleportation tokens it is obvious that they have the potential to separate the players in a marked way. There will be those who no longer have to take subways or walk to any far-reaching location in the game and those who will be walking and taking the subway permanently. While walking for more than an hour to get to places on the ever-expanding map some low level subscribers are bound to get bored and many will become quite frustrated when projects are over by the time they have made their way to the new street. Along the way they will have the opportunity to take note of who their fellow low level subscribers are by both their avatars and the fact that they are the only ones walking around. The higher end subscribers will probably no longer be on those streets to help the players who are being splanked or are being blocked from using a vendor or shrine.


    As for whether or not those who spend the most money should have the most highly valued opinions - that is one of those agree to disagree things - kind of like politics or religion. We all have different but valid opinions on that one. Personally I've found that players who improve the social climate of a game should be the most highly valued as they are the primary cause of retention of new players and therefore protect the income of the game developers. I'd very much like to see Glitch become what exists in the imaginations of Tiny Speck, that is why I point out things I see as potential land mines.
    Posted 19 months ago by Dandilion Subscriber! | Permalink
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