Topic

People's behavior and the (soon to come?) community guidelines [Beer...]

Staff did mention in another topic that community guidelines are forthcoming.  Please bring them into the game sooner than later, please.

Yesterday, I accidentally hit the max to buy beer (I meant to buy 3) so that i could make seasoned beans for some patches I was making for someone who needed to hoe.  So, I think that was 999 beers I ended up buying by mistake.  I thought it was 9999 at first in my panic, but overnight I think it was just 999.  Either way, my bags filled up with unintended beers (some hundreds of them filling every slot I had) and I was, well, feh.

But there was a party, so I just decided to suck it up and bring the 900 or so beers to the party.  The party was in a villa and the house itself was full o crap, so I set the beers out in a line to the door of the house in the public villa area.  Now, I've attended a lot of parties, some in public streets.  We all set a ton of crap out, people come along and take what they like in small quantities.   Everyone shares, yay, party.

It was not bound to last, right?!  I'm the first to say that if it's on a public street, it's fair game for another player.  I've not been an advocate of drop/lock for anything but machines.  But last night, I really got upset by what happened with the beers.

A low level player came along, entered the villa (since the party was being talked up in global), and took as many beers as they could carry, running off with them.  A quick check of their profile at that time showed they got the money bags magoo badge (so, they sold the beer at the nearest vendor)... then they returned to get the rest of the beer.  We are talking hundreds of beers.  We were speaking to the player in local chat with no response from them and they were busy refilling and running away.  We chased them.  I opened a local IM to them, politely stating why we wanted the beer back (so, being reasonable) while using hairball to catch up to them as they went from street to street to evade us.  Others were asking staff to intervene, which did happen.

Staff got the beers back from the player (and the player got another badge for philanthropy), returned them to me, and the player showed up not very remorseful at all while issuing what may have been a mandated apology.  In fact, if anything they seemed amused by the whole thing and waited to enter the party.

So, whatever, it worked out, but I have some concerns.

First, I am not at all happy that one player could just snarf up everything meant to be shared by everyone at a party.  Yes, it was in a public area and I know better.... but parties generally work out without one person snarfing everything up.  I'm *really* sick of the selfish behavior evident in recent tests (hoarding, price gouging, market manipulation, herb garden selfishness) and I see no way for a player to counter it without having to run crying to staff.  

I could not get the player to talk to me (he claims he didn't see the messages) and he could have blocked me anyway.  Now that we get messages saying what street a player has left to visit, we can follow them... but then we can just... splank them?  I tried and was fumbling around too much while in pursuit.  But consider that griefing someone back is also anti-social.  So, our only resource when we encounter a jerk is to talk to staff.

I was, frankly, surprised that staff intervened to give me back the beer.  Especially since staff did not talk to me about the 'theft' of my items but relied on other people's testimony solely.

Staff did not intervene when those blockmakers got 'stolen' - I'm using quotes because since the game allows it, it's difficult to call it theft.  At what point does behavior cross the line?  We don't know.

If the problem was that this player picked up things meant to be shared by all, was it that they picked up all of them?  What if it had been half of them?  I only got half back because they converted the rest to currants.  What if they just picked up 10 of them, but I got bent of shape about it (I wouldn't, but some have).  We have no boundaries except for what staff decides is ok/not ok nor do we have anyway to handle problems ourselves other than to suck it up and take the loss, turn into jerks ourselves, stop playing, or ask staff to intervene.  And staff decisions may change depending on who is working.  

And staff intervention may turn into a game in and of itself because the 'thief' here really liked the interrogation room and wanted to go back to it!

So.  Yea, I will probably never put anything out in a public area again, and I'm pretty much done contributing to parties since I've seen an escalation in the amount of things a given player picks up at them.  There is more selfish play entering the game (whoopie - we all get to choose how to play!) and it really got to me last night, especially since the player was not really contrite at all.  It really seemed they only apologized because they were asked to do so and since they wanted to attend the party.

But I am more concerned that we just don't have guidelines for community play at all.  It leaves the door open for varying responses from staff based on who is on duty at the time.  It also leaves the door open for players to call foul on anything and everything - I dropped a bag at a shrine and someone swooped it up - OK or not OK?  Someone mined my rock - OK or not OK?  I waited 3 hours for this herb which someone came along and swiped - OK or not OK?  I left 900 beers at a party and someone grabbed all of them, knowing that what they were doing was wrong because they actively tried to elude us - OK or not OK?

We've heard staff say that some will be jerks, deal with it, but we also see staff intervene to return a few hundred beers that were actually left in a public area. 

So, I'm frustrated, confused and discouraged. Thoughts? 

Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • @Jackie Paper - I've seen shiny objects & music boxes every party. At Cupcakes, I also saw barnacles, talc, fireflies, jars, scrapers, dirt, and loam. But that's rather irrelevant. What is relevant is that your suggestion removes the possibility of party favors in favor of items meant to be used immediately (party supplies), however some party in the future may choose to use them. Maybe that's OK. I just tend to flinch at ideas that remove possibilities, especially when the suggestion is a solution to a problem we've not yet seen (afaik, there wasn't an issue with folks hoarding all the non-consumables - those firefly jars and lumps of dirt & loam seemed to last a long time, longer than many of the consumables.)
    Posted 18 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • oooh we could debate this issue into the ground me thinks.

    reading some of the new posts leads me to wonder about what the limitations of some player opinions might be. Not all of use are rainbow farting hippie types that want a giant hug-fest every minute of the day while we are running around. So it basically comes down to the community definition of what 'Griefing' is considered.

    Now coming from a variety of MMO experiences from WoW/CO/LOTRO/D&DO/EVE/Warhammer on larger scales and way back to old school MOOs and MUDs  so long ago that i am afraid to remember how old i am, 'griefing' by definition can mean a lot of things. In terms of Glitch obviously there is not need to worry about PK-griefing or faction-ghosting. Basically the only 'real' way to grief here is to do/say things to annoy other people.

    What i am worried about though is this definition of 'griefing' getting out of hand. If anyone has met my ex-wife its pretty much a fact that she could be annoyed just by looking at her for half a second and i've met gamers online who are thinner skinned than she was. So the whole idea of "Griefing is performing an action for the purpose of agitating others for the sake of your enjoyment. " as quoted by Zeeberk leaves a whole lot of stretching room as far as opinions are concerns. You know the old line about opinions, right? Just like poopy-parts, yep yep.

    Realistically though, just as an example, if I run down every street in Groddle Meadow and kill all the trees so there was nothing for street after street but Bean trees is that griefing? I could say in my defense that there is a quest for killing trees and tree poison is a readily available item, so therefor it could NOT be griefing at all. Someone else might argue however that because i killed EVERY damn tree and replanted it with a bean one that it was.

    Frankly it comes down to a matter of opinion. I guarantee that a lot of people would be annoyed with me, whereas i bet i could also get a bunch of others to do with me in the spirit of roleplay or just because it would be hilarious and would probably keep the surrounding streets around my property less congested because there was less to harvest from. Besides i love chili. Mmm, beans!

    I have encountered my share of asshats (to use Stoot's term of endearment) in over 20 years of engaging with the anonymous virtual alter-egos of fellow human beings online. Frankly I have met a lot of em that i wanted to reach through my computer monitor and strangle the every living snot out of because obviously their Mommy didn't smack some common respect into them.  But let's be honest, i don't see the guy who took the beer as a griefer because he enjoyed running inside a game from those parties who pursued him with his stolen goods. Hell i don't feel a slight bit angry because he didn't say sorry on his own either. As i said before, in the spirit of gameplay, hes just a little bit of nastiness inside our Giant's brains that came to life. Splank him and move on.

    Frankly i am trying to figure out what really any could do in this game so badly to another person that it would deserve the interrogation room. I have always been a strongly believer in the ability to 'block' in many capacities when it comes to online activities. If all it takes is a little bit of beer snatchin' and bad talk in Local to get someone's panties in a bunch here and call that 'griefing', i am pretty much gonna be besides-myself-speechless... just be glad Glitch doesn't have world PVP, beer snatchin' has nothing on half a dozen guys corpse camping you for hours on end. (love you little hippies.)
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I had recommended previously in the ideas forum adding the ability to "eat" or "drink" as opposed to picking up food items. My original recommendation was relative to street construction and allowing those building to partake of food and drink offerings made by others but it might apply here.

    Just a thought.
    Posted 18 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 to Jackie Paper, couldn't have put it better - it's all a matter of opinion.
    Posted 18 months ago by Moonspoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Another +1 to Jackie Paper.  And, I repeat: "If all it takes is a little bit of beer snatchin' and bad talk in Local to get someone's panties in a bunch here and call that griefing, i am pretty much gonna be besides-myself-speechless..." This game already has so many edges carefully rounded off compared to the, shall we say, edgier sites and games out there, and I say that as a fellow websplorer of many MOOs, MUDs, and MMORPGs. 

    All I can really contribute at this point is this: If everyone gets this annoyed/griefed about this one thing, I can absolutely guarantee that this game will be griefed to no end by people who will read threads like this and laaaaaaaugh.  Screenshots of this thread alone on SomethingAwful would be a disaster, because they would no doubt see that yes, all it really does take to get "someone's panties in a bunch" is "a little bit of beer snatchin' and bad talk in Local".  As JP said, "Splank him and move on."  Don't let it get to you.  Move.  On.
    Posted 18 months ago by Jannisary Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @WindBorn, you said: "way, way up there, someone said:

    "when anyone can join": actually, that ain't happening. There was a tweet about a month ago with a seemingly small mention saying Glitch is going to remain an invite by friends game...even at live.

    That' won't solve the griefing problem at all.  People who are currently playing will be able to invite their friends, even the ones who currently aren't playing nice.  People can create a 2nd account and use that one if their first account gets booted for griefing.  

    Whether or not that statement is accurate (and I have my doubts that any staff member actually said that), it will not impact the issue of problem players."

    Yeah, good point about it probably not solving things. But yes, indeed, that was said. I couldn't copy it last night because Twitter wouldn't dig up my tweets (sigh, stupid thing). But here you go:

    (the original tweet): playglitch Glitch, the game @ 
    @We may never have an open beta. Indeed, it is looking increasingly likely that Glitch will be invite-only even after launch.

    (my reply tweet) Interesting. Just curious: Why? I don't particularly care, but it would be interesting to know the reason. Thanks:) 

    And here was the response: (playglitch's tweet) Because we want to grow things at a reasonable and measured pace, and not overwhelm the world or the community with a deluge.

    So yep, it was indeed said by someone on staff:) But yeah, you're right about it not necessarily solving stuff....

    @Jackie Paper, Moonspoon: The game is kinda hippie then, as you define it. There's an active program to greet people officially, with live human players...not because the tutorial isn't fairly fleshed out but just to make new players feel welcome. The tutorial pretty much explains things; the greeters are just there to say hi and help out if need be but mainly because the staff wants and is committed to Glitch being a welcoming place. So...while yes, what is and isn't griefing is a matter of opinion (and I do agree about certainly griefing in other games being far worse)...the game is by design and description community-oriented, nonviolent and welcoming. (Jackie Paper said: "Not all of use are rainbow farting hippie types that want a giant hug-fest every minute of the day while we are running around. So it basically comes down to the community definition of what 'Griefing' is considered.") I'm absolutely not saying there isn't a place for more competitive players (heck, I am one and yes, I have killed some trees for various reasons)...just wondering if you actually enjoy the game if that's how you feel?
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I say this with respect to you Jackie Paper... you talk about how us rainbow farting hippies (whether you were referring to me as one in this post or not, I am one in real life) overreacting and being a bit sensitive, but it is you that suggests that we throw on some formalized regulations and take away possibilities as a solution to a problem that has not yet occurred. I want to agree with your sentiments, but it seems as if you are overreacting as much as those as you're calling out. 

    That's not to say that the Party Zone idea doesn't have merit - I think it does! But as I mentioned way upthread, I worry about the implementation. I'd hate for it unnecessarily force a certain nature or behavior or idea of what a party is. As a rainbow farting hippie, I think it's more important that those things be determined and policed by the party hosts.

    Power to the people! Live and let live! Don't let the man keep you down! Make love not war! Save the whales! 
    Posted 18 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Let Freedom RIng.. let the whole world sing...
    Posted 18 months ago by napabeth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • OH, ugh, I read this whole thing through and one thing that REALLY stuck out to me is the idea that only the host be able to pick items up.

    PLEASE don't do this; what's the point of the party!?
    Posted 18 months ago by Cupcake Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ugh.

    FWIW, I posted a party permit suggestion in the Ideas forum topic, for those interested (it does not involve limiting who can pick up what).

    I knew someone would throw 'hippes' around.  Whatever.  That's annoying.  The definition of grief in my comment above is from someone else's comment, it's not mine.  I think *everyone* here, even those annoyed by the beer 'thief', recognizes that the beer was in a public area and subject to having been taken.  That doesn't mean we don't get annoyed by purely selfish behavior.  I'm over explaining the meat of my topic (which is 'staff response' or 'what are the guidelines for conduct'?) - Tradescantia got it correctly as did a few others, so I'm not retreading it again.

    The fact is, whatever grief is in other MMOs, grief here is pretty much a player or players doing something to annoy the hell out of other players.  And the annoyances will always win because there is no way to combat it aside from ineffectual splanking, staff doesn't want us doing witch hunts, and who knows how they'll handle people being annoyed/annoying moving forward.  That inability to undo annoying things means that players who want to cooperate will move more and more to private spaces, such that new players won't be able to find the cool stuff (see the comment above about the new player's experience with the Feman Falters party and how that got them hooked on Glitch).

    For example, community herb gardens started going south the day they were introduced.  I wanted to play with herbs and didn't want to deal with either the people saying, 'bah! don't camp out!' or the players running through and sniping herbs without re-planting.  I got my own house for an herb garden and camped out there to do my thing.  That's what people will do: go camp out privately.

    As for adversity being cool and needed and whatever -- been down this road before in the forum -- sure, adversity is fine, but to a degree.  Example: The whole spice thing happening now is not what I want to do when I play Glitch.  Meaning: some players chop down all the spice trees; others go replant them.  Wait until tree grows up and chop it down again.  Replant.  Rinse, lather, repeat.  Meanwhile, there is so few spice, people freak out or fight back or give up and quit.  Seriously, if I have only an hour to play on a given day and my plan was to [whatever uses a lot of spice] and instead I spend that hour chasing down spice killers, which is annoying, well, I'll sure stop doing that pretty soon.  Or go private and forsake my herbs for a house with 5 spice trees. Or just find another way to occupy my free time.

    So, I'm seeing 'community minded hippies' being at the disadvantage here.  Maybe that will change with group halls - whatever they end up being - so I'm still willing to wait it out for that feature but have to admit that my overall experience with beta is that while the game is ramping up to have cool features, the community is devolving (yes, most are not asshats! but there are more and more of them around from my POV and it only takes a few to sour me).

    FWIW, I am no hippy.  Tie dye and deadheads make me cringe, I support private gun ownership & <3 property rights, care nothing at all for communes, but do have a idealistic streak (Kant among my favorite philosophers) and value cooperative behavior above competitive behavior (while recognizing a competitive free market as the best possible market).  Maybe we can have these discussions without assuming that because a person values cooperation, it does not mean they are a 'hippy'.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  @cupcake - OH, ugh, I read this whole thing through and one thing that REALLY stuck out to me is the idea that only the host be able to pick items up. PLEASE don't do this; what's the point of the party!?

    I think its a good idea whilst the party is actually being set up it makes sense that the host/ party organisers be the only ones that can pick up items in the party zone, it would prevent the situation that occurred with the beers. I also think that having  some items usable but not removable could be a useful tool to ensure that everyone gets a chance to enjoy the party.

    There are also some good ideas being suggested in the ideas forum.

    ETA + Zeeberk's comments posted before I finished posting mine.
    I want to see a well developed comunity here not one that hides away to avoid those that enjoy spoiling what others have worked so hard to provide to the community. Yes I could just walk away and accept and move on, but I havent given up hope yet that we can build here what eludes us IRL
    Posted 18 months ago by Faereluth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Rascalmom: I totally love the game! I just enjoy playing it in a different way, maybe a in a more solitary fashion and Glitch caters for that.  The game does enable and encourage community play but it doesn't prescribe that as the only way.

    I've not participated in any mischief thus far, but that doesn't mean I think it should be outlawed or that I might not give it a go in the future.  I've dropped items I don't particularly want or need for anybody to take, donated to projects, helped out newbies in need and provided a regular supply of veg at the auction at low prices.  I think the greeters are great for showing how the game mechanics work when people get stuck. 

    However, in this 'game of giant imagining', I think there should be a place for creativity and imagination with the tools we've been given.  I'm not by any means suggesting adding violent aspects or removing the community play, I am simply of the opinion that there's a place for hit & run sneezing powder sprinklers, community garden snafflers and even beer bandits alongside the quiet,solitary types and the co-op community players. 

    Yes, I've had stuff pinched from my feet before I learnt not to sort my bags in busy thoroughfares, I've been splanked and sneezed - and, moreover, hugged and kissed - when it was inconvenient, I've had 'my' community veg garden patches cleared while I was standing there and I've been rock-sniped by level 4 miners back when I was still taking 12 seconds to grab a few crumbs but I shrugged (or laughed) and carried on playing and enjoying. 

    Opinions are just that - I'm not attempting to persuade anyone else that mine is a preferable standpoint or to align their thinking with mine, I'm just saying that my opinions of what constitutes wrongdoing in Glitch might be different from some or all of the other players here. I am a little surprised at the suggestion that the game 'might not be for me' simply because I don't feel that I have to play in the same fashion as, fully agree with, or immerse myself as deeply in the community aspects as other groups of people like to.

    tl;dr:  With respect to the OP, I totally agree that a consistent approach is required when dealing with misbehaviour, the question is who decides what constitutes misbehaviour?  High level guidelines will help.

    Gosh, that turned into a long old waffle didn't it?

    Moonspoon
    Posted 18 months ago by Moonspoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Moonspoon: That's cool! You're right, of course in that one can play Glitch more solitarily and quite enjoy the game. I just see it as so different vis-a-vis cooperative play than a lot of MMOs that are more PvP things. I was genuinely wondering if you and Jackie liked the game; by saying "maybe it isn't for you" I was really being more curious ("I'm curious like a cat! That's why they call me Whiskers! [um, Saturday Night Live reference, couldn't help myself]). I'm really glad you like it! You know, the old so hard to read typing vs. face-to-face conversation thing. (And why doesn't American English have lovely phrases like "long old waffle"? Love that!) Cheers!

    And I edited my post about "maybe it isn't for you" because...good point, odd thing to say:)
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Jackie, Moonspoon and Jannisary, do you really think it's odd that the members of a community playing a game that does not use PvP to dole out instant vigilante justice to discuss other ways to deal with players who act against that community's interests? Not so much the beer, though it's a smaller example of anti-cooperative behavior and the catalyst of this thread, but hairier situations like construction theft and clearcutting? It seems to me that you're not quite understanding why this matters to so many players... as Zee pointed out himself, it's not about the petty theft. If that is the only message you are taking away from this thread (well, that and how fun it would be to spread it around the SA forums), then I'm honestly wondering why Glitch appeals to you.

    Now I want to join the Rainbow-Farting Hippie group! What kind of new wardrobe items will THAT inspire?
    Posted 18 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I must take issue with the idea of griefing being based on opinion, because it muddies the issue of why it happens.  Yes, if you're an arbitrator trying to determine if griefing took place, it can be hard to nail down, but if you are a griefer, you know why you're doing something, and intent is what makes a griefer.

    In the example of poisoning all the trees...if there's a quest that says "poison 5 trees" and you do it and don't replace the trees...that's not griefing, that's playing the game.  If the devs don't want something to happen, then they shouldn't incentivize it.

    On the one hand, there's the sense that this game is different and there is community and all that, but on the other, it's an open-ended experiment where people are allowed to take what they want from the game.  You must admit, the standard MMORPG elements are present, and if you all you care about is money, XP, and levels, you can play quite happily with almost no interaction with other players.  There's a game here, not just a just an artsy lovefest.  Although there is that too.

    In terms of how to handle griefers, one way is for the community to make their actions largely irrelevant.  It's not so hard for high level players to create neighborhood watch groups and patrol the streets like the Guardian Angels, looking for players in need and/or things to fix.  Really, what are Level 1000 guys going to be doing with their time anyway?

    If "Ha ha! I poisoned all your trees!" gets no response and a couple minutes later, they're all back, then a griefer will get bored with that tactic fairly quickly.

    There are some things that it's impossible for the game engine to deal with...verbal harrassment, for example (although an ignore option goes a long way towards fixing that), and in those instances, moderator intervention makes sense, but a hippy-dippy sense of love and peace should be earned and come from good players being good people and policing themselves, not overbearing mods ensuring that small acts of dickery result in smiting from above.
    Posted 18 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ^ Completely agree with the end of your post

     I'll sum up what I had originally posted -- and that was that parties are not a game function, they are player made & player held;created;etc. & though I enjoy that staff will teleport players to parties, I honestly cant believe that they would take action against this. Also, all of the suggested updates for parties doesnt really make sense, as a beta player, I see them happen all the time -- I dont really find the appeal in them & usually just spend the final hour in my own home, if I do go to parties its just to see if I can get something I need. That being said I doubt players who play when the game is open will even be interested in having parties due to 1. lack of reason and 2. lack of things to actually do. I can back that statement up with being at unsuccessful parties during beta that didnt take place during the end of a test.

    sorry for TL;DR so in short: I think that staff intervening in this issue was completely ridiculous. If I ever get a smack on the wrist & told to apologize, I'll go back to picking my nose for entertainment. The internet isnt that serious, and this IS just a game. Sometimes I feel like the amount of anger people can muster up at other people on here is amazing.

    Next time I'll bring the beer.
    Posted 18 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Because it had to be done: Rainbow-Farting Hippies
    Posted 18 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Rascalmom, I totally agree on the difficulties of interpreting type on a page.  It took me so long to type and retype that post so that it didn't come across as me saying 'you're all wrong and I'm right'. I felt in retrospect that I'd been lazy in just "+1" ing another post that approximated my thoughts and that I should have the courage of my convictions!  Thanks for being curious and, if I can be coaxed out of lurkage to post again some time I'm sure I can supply you with more English linguistic gems (I'm not as green as I am cabbage looking!) :¬)

    @Lilith: I'm pretty sure I didn't suggest anywhere that I thought it was odd or that it shouldn't be discussed, in fact I thought I was adding to the discussion by offering a different viewpoint. As you can see from my post, I fully understand what's being discussed (ref to OP at the end), and I heartily enjoy the game. I just maybe don't feel as strongly about some of the alternate behaviours as other people do. 

    Having said all that, if I had the opportunity to fart rainbows in-game, I'd be right by your side in joining that group!
    Posted 18 months ago by Moonspoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "In terms of how to handle griefers, one way is for the community to make their actions largely irrelevant."

    i agree with that, and the rest of your post, but need to add that in order for their actions to be irrelevant the physics of the game must be such that is is easy for the trees to be nearly instantly replaced without breaking a sweat, and that large scale changes to the public game landscape require communal effort and are thus less accessible to individuals or small groups.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Moonspoon: LMAO...oh. my. giant. We must, must fart rainbows in the game! Devs, make it so!
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Perhaps Rainbow farting will require gassifying and ingesting an new Rainbow gas :)
    Posted 18 months ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe if you ingest the rainbow gas you fart sunshine.
    Posted 18 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oooh oh  wait rainbow farts might be a good rook repellant  . . . ooh  begone you foul birds of doom Paaarrp!"
    Posted 18 months ago by Faereluth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We all want freedom. Freedom to dress how we like. Freedom to live where we want. Freedom to spend our time in whatever manner we deem appropriate.

    Sometimes behaviour crosses the line as to what we perceive as acceptable. We all know that in our hearts we are born with the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. That said, we see acts committed that push us to outrage so often that we become accustomed to same.  A sort of jaded ennui sets in. We become complacent.

    If Glitch were the typical mmorpg, I wouldn't have issue with such behaviour. If someone wanted to rp the bad guy and commit atrocities while twirling their evil 'stache...so what. It wouldn't define them as a person, it would just be their choice in gameplay. Knock yourself out with all that. But...I don't want the typical experience here. If I wanted to grind and kill things I would get bored within minutes and wander off to some other wes bite to conk zombies over the head. I love the environment here, the gameplay, and the community, because it doesn't embrace those things. The predilection towards altruism and philanthropy, the kindness of the staff and players, and the gentle spirit that permeates the whole keep me hooked/coming back/anxiously refreshing looking to get back in. I don't want to see that change.

    I realize that change is inevitable. There will be no shortage of players whom think that whatever is necessary to get ahead is the direct course to success. The end justifies the means and all that. I'm just not wired that way though. In the end I believe that setting a good example can benefit everyone you come into contact with. Being so generous and kind that even your enemies are at a loss for words. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil can be defined as the absence of good. Know each other by your love, not by rumours and whispers of antisocial actions.

    I've read through this thread. Some posts I may have skimmed and scrolled. If this has already been posited, and I missed it, apologies all around:

    Whenever I come into a new instance I look at who else is there with me. The names listed are all one colour. If it could become possible in the future I'd like to see a colour-coded list of names instead. The people whom you have friended in one particular colour. The people you have never interacted with and do not know in another. A third colour dedicated to people whom you have placed on a list of players that have committed some disreputable offense. Asshat is a bit played in my book, but we'll continue on with it as it has been in use. You have your friends list, have another for asshats. That way I would be reminded to take the time to chat with people whom are on my personal asshat list. Maybe they will change. Maybe I would just annoy them with my innate hippiness. At least I would know I have the opportunity, and try to do the right thing. Not an answer to the question of what to do with guidelines and all that, rather a request to be able to see and know whom I am with at a quick glance.

    tl;dr: if your attention span can't deal, just keep scrolling. 
    Posted 18 months ago by malo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Malo, that was a VERY well thought out and worded post. I too, have played many other online games, and if I wanted the typical experience, I would be there. As someone pointed out to me earlier, this is a game that appeals more to the creatives.....that's what I love about it! <3 
    Posted 18 months ago by NutMeg Botwin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've been a member of Second Life for years and there used to be a lot of griefing (there still is some but not as much). SL is a little different because you can build and import scripts to make whatever you want.  Which means that griefers can crash sims by replicating objects/lagging etc. The thing is they can usually only do this on 'public' property where permission to build has been allowed (or on private property where they have been given permission by the land owner) Fortunately in Glitch forgetting to turn off permissions isn't going to find you trapped by hundreds of repicating Gor cages in your own house. (ask me how I know)

    If you own/rent property in SL you have land rights and one of the most useful ones is the freeze/eject/ban. You can also AR (abuse report) in real time. Those skills would be useful here as well. And maybe a party permit where you had the right to freeze/eject/ban on the public street where you live for the duration of the party?
    Posted 18 months ago by Violet Faulds Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, I would like to know more about what this Sparklemotion did that annoyed everyone so much that she got interrogated.
    Posted 18 months ago by Violet Faulds Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @violet see this wiki article for the backstory. Suffice it to say that the Glitch flooded the help channel with inanity and would not stop. Flooded! Room for nothing other than her comments, exclamation points and whines about "meeeeeee!"
    Posted 18 months ago by Mac Rapalicious Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Should i not take the creation of your Rainbow-Farting Hippie group as not mocking me directly? I tend to have a pretty strong sense of humor but some of you ladies seemed to read some malice into my typically jovial and snarky writing style. i am in fact a pretty consistent jokester and it appears a lot of you missed the joke and started berating in response.

    Being questioned on whether i liked the game because i used the phrased rainbow-farting hippies as a joke seemed a little confrontational to the point that i ignored it (several times actually *sniff*), but really a group name goes almost to the point of not being funny and more akin to thumbing your nose at someone who really, truly had made several very thoughtful posts about this whole beer-stealing-griefing-party debacle to the point of writing a rather lengthy suggestion about community guidelines concerning party zones and supplies (which it appears the group creator also seemed to dislike almost as vehemently as my rainbow-farting joke) and was truly making some off-handed jokes about the opinions on griefing that was only really insultive towards my ex-wife. :)

    *sigh* hippies are spiteful. i am not feeling the love. enjoy your group.
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Dearest Jackie Paper, As I am truly an old hippie and fondly remember Puff.. I took no offense at your label.  Mind you, I have not been able to fart nearly as many rainbows as I would wish I could have in my many years of rl post-sixties survival.   I found it humorous, though possibly slightly (though probably not intentionally) self conscious.  After all, any authentic old hippie can tell you what happened with Jackie.  Your very name belies the fact that your are here and care about this game and how it becomes.  Clearly you do.  Got the joke, and never took it to heart.  Peace & Love.. Princess
    Posted 18 months ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Jackie Paper, I don't see it that way at all. Not in a mocking derisive way, no.

    Rather I see what you have put out there as the impetus for a great idea.  Your example of someone running down the streets of G.M. killing all the trees is a realistic situation. We all know this could and probably will happen. Rather than accept the inevitable and shrug it off, some have chosen to become proactive rather than reactive. Deal with the problem rather than wish it hadn't happened at all. A concerted effort to kill trees should be met head on with as equal a force hell-bent on saving them. It takes little effort in either case; pour out a bottle of poison and watch the clock tick down....pour out a bottle of antidote and nurture. A determined effort could cause much damage- why shouldn't there be an opposing effort to thwart such attempts? A drum full of poison, a bathtub full of cure. Being prepared for contingencies is better than grieving over loss.

    You are a terrifically wise and witty person. You approach problems and look at them from every conceivable angle. You are blessed with great analytical skill and the ability to entertain ideas that might prove contrary to your own opinions. I think as a whole, the community will agree that your input is quite welcome and beneficial. You and I both know this to be true.

    The group's name seems to be the problem; you feel slighted. I can see how you might feel that way. I can also see where you might be making something out of nothing. Yes, you yourself coined the phrase; the quote is, "Not all of use are rainbow farting hippie types that want a giant hug-fest every minute of the day while we are running around." This was probably a throw away line to you. I know how it is when you're riffing and you just start swinging. I think of Roland Kirk, or Django, or Monk- when you're banging away things come out...sometimes it's pure magick and other times it's less than stellar. But...it seems the phrase struck a humorous chord and some took it and ran. Sure, not everyone is a rainbow farting hippie. Then again, some are. You shouldn't be offended by the nomenclature as it is meant to show a sense of solidarity between individuals that believe in a virtuous peaceful loving existence. That it is a humorous name is (at least to me) denoting a sense of fun as well. Serious business doesn't have to be toil and misery. Saving the world should be fun.

    I am not a spokesperson for the group, nor do I claim to be able to read minds or interpret the words of others at anything other than face value. If you are feeling slighted, I'm inclined to believe that you are missing the spirit of the thing. If I myself am mistaken, my apologies.

    In summing up one of your earlier posts via tl;dr, you stated "Giving players retribution tools are not in the spirit of the game." Clearly you get it. I don't think anyone can question your integrity. Hopefully whatever misgivings you have with the name of the group will be further addressed, and any ill-will (real or imagined) will dissipate.  
    Posted 18 months ago by malo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ah maybe im just being a crotchy near-old fart myself.

    i used the rainbow-farting hippie nomenclature simply because it's easy jargon from my background (growing up in the pacific NW surrounded by patchouli-smelling vegans will do that to a guy afterall - leave it to me to poke fun using a subculture that i have pretty much been around my whole life, i do live in Oahu now so its not like their is any shortage here either. and while i shared some similarities in some ways, I DID just cut off my dreadlocks about a month ago after all... true fact. Yet, i have never been the proponent of hugging someone into submission,)

    if it's any question by now, im a long-winded old geek who has seen his fair share of the griefing types. This thread concerns me in a variety of manners which i have addressed (1, the much needed establishment of community guidelines and 2, the nuances concerned when establishing what griefing in this 'softer' gaming environment might actual entail and 3, the necessity to be wary in outlining that based on our widespread opinions in order to avoid coming down too hard on things that are still in the spirit of the game world.) My main concern is the necessity to be a little more flexible in our definitions and not being too specific in our guidelines in order to prevent 'don't stuff beans up your nose' scenarios* with future attention-desiring narcissists. Hence, my desire for more hard-coded restrictions regarding this specific 'griefing' issue, versus long-winded constitutions of acceptable behavior because opinions on behavior is personally subjective. Yes, even if that means that barnacles don't become party favors based on what Imbri said previously.

    As long as their was no spite in the group name, i am so cool with that. You gals/guys go stock up on tree antidotes and lock up your liquor cabinets, *laughs* i just was worried there was misunderstandings concerning what i was saying in my snarky post and didn't want it snowballing into something silly. I for one never ever troll, unless its teasing Zach about not really being rich and famous...

    * if you tell a child not to stuff beans up their nose, they are most likely going to do as soon as you turn your back.

    {edited for equality}
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ahemm, Jackie.. Pretty sure that RFH is multi-gender..
    Posted 18 months ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @zeeberk Gotcha. I did read the whole thread, including all your posts, but I'd obviously latched onto the wrong part of your post...
    Posted 18 months ago by RealJimBob Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lol. are you sure Princess? (checks again)

    yep, i see lots of girls....lipstick and mascara abound there. not that it mattered, didnt mean to offend with the 'ladies' usage. :)

    oh and Gomez. i stand corrected. one boy. sowwy. ;p
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My suggestion: educate new players about the nature of the game. That sharing is encouraged and being an asshole is not. After all, this is something they have never seen before :)

    Is there a training area? I forgot. A training area can be useful for learning the basics of the game, without being distracted by all the skill-related quests (that's a new quest every ±10 minutes). I suggest skill-learing is disabled during this training. After learning all the basics and entering the world of Ur your first quests would include learning a skill and interacting with others. The reason I suggest the delay of skill-learning is that I was overwhelmed with all the quests when I just started playing.
    Posted 18 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Jackie Paper - As the creator of the group, I meant absolutely no offense and wasn't even really thinking of you when I created it. It was just a funny thing to come out of this whole ordeal. And yes, there's definitely a bit of mocking, but I think it's as much at ourselves as it is at you (and others) who become frustrated at times by the hippie ideals this game occasionally nurtures. 

    I do apologize, though. In hindsight I can see how you could feel as if it was a bit of a personal attack, but I hope that you'll come to see that was never the intent. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Is there a training area? I forgot."

    There is, and in addition to that there is greeter program in place to help new players get oriented, whereby older players meet the new player, show him/her the ropes, answer questions, etc.

    But for a new player, learning "how to be a cool Glitch" in a training program is 1.) too much to deal with on top of learning how to activate spinach and plant seasoned beans, and 2.) like getting a lecture at the front door.  It's bound to be a turn off for new players and greeters alike.   
    Greeters have to try to convey the spirit of Glitch in their conversation with new players, also not an easy task when you are trying convince the player you are not a bot.  So, really the player needs to experience that spirit of Glitch starting from his/her exit from the tutorial street, from as many as possible of the older players.  

    But from what I keep reading, this game is not about teaching new players how to be good Glitchizens, it's about how Glitch changes when new players are added to the world.

    That and let players kick people out of their houses, and don't drop too much stuff on your floor during a party.
    Posted 18 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Two staff responses, both say any guidelines will be vague, both seem to say that the 'selfish' issue is not something they will be changing and it is a designed part of the world.

    So back to the original question what good will community guidelines do? How is it going to be any different than now? Guidelines that condense to 'don't be an asshat' don't actually offer a change from present, do they?
    Posted 18 months ago by Sweet Pea Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Jackie, my husband is joining RFH. So yep, two genders :)
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sweet pea, guidelines will let us know what can bring you to the interrogation room and what cannot (in a general way).  

    I think knowing the distinction between being a 'bad guy/girl' in-game and being a 'spoilsport' is important, don't you?  What if you were being a bad guy/girl and staff brought you into interrogation for being a spoilsport?  Wouldn't you like to know the difference?

    What especially concerns me is the following.  Say you encounter a bad guy in-game (and bad guys are OK).  They perhaps run ahead of you while you and your friends are on the peter-out peat quest and dig up all the peat bogs so that you cannot complete your quest.   Awww, bummer.  In your frustration, you gang up on these bad guys and splank them until they block you then you go to their home and leave nasty notes and piles of guano at their doorstop.  Now... actually... what if the latter is noted as harassment and is being a spoilsport (which is not OK)?  What if you run on and on and on in chat about them and form a group to warn your friends about them?  Hmm, a witch hunt might be spoilsportish (not OK).  Or, actually, is muffing up someone's peat bog quest being spoilsportish and not being a bad guy?

    Guidelines will never be perfect because, it's true, you cannot get too narrow with them, but they are at least something, especially if we end up with yellow/red flags and trips to the interrogation room.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Jackie Paper The logorrhea is strong in you- I feel a kindred spirit. I also possess a glorious Y to go along with my X so RFH isn't gender biased. :)

    I wonder if everyone realizes how blessed we are as a community? Actually, I'm pretty sure most are aware. Not just in-game but in the forums as well. Should this topic crop up in any of the other places I have frequented, it would have turned into page after page of /b/ memes and "you mad bro" responses. I don't want to descend into ageism, but it is certainly refreshing to see civil well thought out discourse concerning such a serious topic instead of twelve-year-olds spewing nonsense in an attempt to appear "cool".

    @ zeeberk I've had someone do exactly what you referred to regarding the peter-out peat quest. It's hard enough to find a full one; tag on coordinating a group to work in sync and it becomes like herding cats.Waiting to start the quest only to see someone not of the group run up and dig away is frustrating. Especially after chatting and IMing what the intentions of the group are and being ignored.Once is an accident. Twice by the same person? Attribute it to bad luck. Three times and it becomes apparent that it is time to teleport to a new locale. What can you do? It isn't something to get mad about, but for those trying to complete the quest it leaves a bad impression. Hopefully incidents like this have been few and far between to this point.

     
    Posted 18 months ago by malo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe they weren't watching global or local chat? it happens! Get over it it is only a game.... The incidents will only get more common as the game (hopefully) get more popular.
    Posted 18 months ago by Phochai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ...or perhaps it's fun when you see a group gathered around a full bog to dig away and read the comments that ensue. Again. And again.

    Maybe a language issue..

    All sorts of supposition can be applied. Nothing to "get over". It happened. It's done. Ancient history.
    Posted 18 months ago by malo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I believe it is fair game to pick up anything on the ground although players may think it not 'correct'. I have picked up a key when I thought someone wanted it and was away from their keyboard (sleeping in front of the spot). Is this not correct because I needed the key too and checked back a few times prior? It is not any different than the juju stealing my orb the other day or the rook killing crops. I believe we should be able to throw people out of our houses but in the same regard we do have storage that is locked up. I do suggest there be a confirmation button on dropping items such as bags and toolboxes so people don't accidentally drop large ticket items and have someone swoop in and take them. However, we all know the difference between playful and malicious griefing.
    Posted 18 months ago by grimm griever Subscriber! | Permalink
  • However, we all know the difference between playful and malicious griefing.

    Actually, that's not true. There are a lot of differences of opinion about whether something is malicious or playful, rude or acceptable, hostile or a joke. 

    Assuming that your point of view is shared by everyone else is naive at best, and can lead to very harmful splits in a community. 
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 WindBorn
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Windborn.  Short and to the point as regards this whole thread.
    Posted 18 months ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I still don't know what actually brought that guy into the interrogation room, if it wasn't the beer-stealing incident.  I started seeing messages to Pepper about how "Asshat," let's call him, was taking all of the beers.  I ran out of Cupcake's house to help rescue the beers, but it was too late, so instead I chased Asshat through the streets, and eventually saw that his destination was the interrogation room, rather than the next street.  Later, I saw him say that he was trying to run from the developers, and that he enjoyed the interrogation room. 

    If it wasn't the beer theft which got him in there, was it that he wasn't responding to Pepper's messages?  I'm asking not to be nosy, but rather to understand exactly where the lines are drawn in these situations, which was part of the original question in this thread.  Obviously, the community guidelines haven't been published yet, but in the mean time, can we get some idea of whether or not we should even bother to pester devs in these situations?
    Posted 18 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ok, before everyone gets hung up on the specifics of peat bogs, that was an example meant only to illustrate that the difference between bad guy and spoilssport seems thin here.

    I don't know the difference between playful and malicious griefing in glitch, so I would like to know more. I think you can also leave motive out of the definition, since it's been established that all anyone need say is, "I wasn't doing it to hurt anyone, it's just that the character I play is bad," and motive becomes moot.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink