Topic

Revisiting "Help Mine" topic

I know this enveloped to a huge thread a while back and the pop-up dialog to allow "help mine" was removed, which is fine and all, but I am seeing a huge amount of greed/competition developing (*cough* Ajaya Bliss competition) that is completely against the whole idea of cooperation and teamwork.

Situation:
- Glitch#1 with level 1 mining enters a vacant map say in Salatu with 4 full rocks in it to mine
- Glitch#1 drinks earthshaker and begins mining
- Random Glitch#2 enters map and proceeds to "help" mine the rock
- Now, normally this is fine EXCEPT random Glitch#2 has level IV Mining
- Glitch#2 clears the rock, leaving Glitch#1 hammering at the ground to finish the cycle
- Proceeding to the next rock, the Glitch#1 may get maximum 2 clumps before it is gone
- This action leaves Glitch#1 very upset that this random Glitch#2 is not waiting or "helping", but is instead finishing the rocks and running off.

My friend reported this to me today as her situation and was quite upset over the callous actions of that miner. I then proceeded to the caves (I don't mine much and have level 2 mining) to see for myself. Sure enough, within 15 minutes of mining while waiting to see a ghost, I too was subject to the "help mine" problem and well, felt very cheated.

I'm not a "serious miner" and do not want to be competitive in mining, it's not important to me. If it were, I'd have Mining IV too. That in mind, think about situations such as these before commenting as this has nothing to do with how beneficial it is supposed to be (I agree it is in the long run more beneficial to share mining). However, it seems a bit lopsided.
 
Suggestion 1:
Impose Mining skill level comparison limit to automatically "help", requiring a dialog to allow help. Glitches with skill levels in mining within one level of one another do not require a dialog to "help mine". Anything greater than 1 level requires permission.

Suggestion 2 (per striatic):
The reward when you are helped should be increase by one. If one person helps, you get 2 bonus chunks. if 2 help you, you get 4 bonus chunks. It could also be managed that each and every time you help, the person you help mine gets more chunks.

Suggestion 2A (per striatic): Each and every time someone helps, the person you help mine gets more chunks. If someone is mining slowly because they are at low level, and the helper manages to get three 'helps' in during their single mining action, the player being helped would receive 6 bonus chunks per mining action - assuming the bonus is boosted to 2.  (#helpers x 2chunk=bonus)

Suggestion 3 (Per  Skwid):
This option is "first come, first serve". Mining a node loots the whole node in one go. This could take the current amount of time, or take 5 times longer than mining currently takes, it doesn't really matter as long as spawn times are consistent.

Suggestion 4 (Per  Skwid):
The second one is more in the spirit of Glitch in my opinion, but is much more difficult to implement. (The following is a summary of my interpretation of Skwid's suggestion) Throttle the speed of all players mining together to the same speed as the player with the highest skill level.

Suggestion 5 (Per ICountFrom0):
Make the mining speed of the first miner be the default speed for all others joining to mine. If a level 1 initiates a mining session on a rock, anyone joining to help will mine at the same speed (if lower than their own). This way you will "help" at their speed if lower than your own or mine at your speed if theirs is higher.

Suggestion 6 (Per Biohazard):
When you select the rock, you then choose "Mine!", which sounds a whole lot like it belongs to you. Perhaps this could be changed to excavate or pick (v).

Suggestion 7 (Per Many Many Glitches):
Change "help mine" to help the OTHER person mine their rock, resulting in the helper receiving less rock chunks than the person they are helping (or none at all).

Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • striatic wrote: what about trad's comment, quoted earlier, that due to nub effect a communally mined rock has between 50 and 70?
    This is because with more than one person you can slip in an extra help or two. With two people you would only be able to fit 2.5 actions each mathematically, but in reality one person will "mine" 3 times, and someone will "help mine" 3 times, fitting in 6 actions instead of only 5. If you had 10 people, then they could potentially fit in 19 actions (if they're really fast) per rock. With 50 people you could fit in 99, etc…
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am pretty new to the game, but I kind of liked the fact that I could complete the "Help Mine" quest by helping higher level players.  I never felt like I had anyone encroach on a rock I was mining, but I also never went out of my way to find rocks to mine (I kind of just harvested anything that I could find, whenever I found it).  

    Maybe it's that I'm a super-casual gamer, but I liked that I could help others mine when I felt like mining and someone was already there.  Then again, I don't know how much I helped or hurt anyone, being all low-level and ignorant of the deeper mechanics of it all.  I was just kind of like, "OOOH!  Rocks!  Wait, I can help mine?  How?  Oh, it says "Help Mine."  Cool!  *pick, pick, pick* "  
    Posted 15 months ago by Eliza Thornybur Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "This is because with more than one person you can slip in an extra help or two. With two people you would only be able to fit 2.5 actions each mathematically, but in reality one person will "mine" 3 times, and someone will "help mine" 3 times, fitting in 6 actions instead of only 5. If you had 10 people, then they could potentially fit in 19 actions (if they're really fast) per rock. With 50 people you could fit in 99, etc…"

    if the miner was low level and slow, and the helpers were really fast, would that make a difference?

    i mean, i'm just thinking abut how to exploit it.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Eliza:  Exactly.   That's why I say that certain places where ambitious people go to mine feel "competitive" while in most other places people seem to have your sort of attitude toward mining.
    Posted 15 months ago by Treesa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Damn, between you and @Skwid I suspect you will work it out. I've lost track of the fine details brought up here. I worked with a slow miner as a fast miner, but I was lost in conversation to much with him to really notice my production or his. I was trying to teach and wasn't worried about my personal output at that moment. With the re-start there will be a lot of equalization and it will be a little while yet before there will be enough level differences available to do the research. Now that you brought the subject up I will pay attention when the opportunity arises and I'll post details somewhere appropriate if I can.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This is a post about perception but let me give my perspective. I love love love mining & worked my way up to mining IV. As a newbie I did engage in mining but did not find the mines till much later in the game. Often when mining you go your way & they go theirs when done, with no comparing of notes. Recently I got that chance to have a long mining session with someone in the mines. They were LV 2 , both of us received about the same amount for each mine, although I could mine faster. Yes you don't get the whole 50 because you are sharing the rock but said rock ultimately pays out more than 50 when you add in the bonus. I am usually are dropping chunks and jewels so that's an added bonus with mining with me & I like to share my earthshakers. I don't much pay attention to payout when interacting with others. The community is more important to me. My solution is to add an additional 1 or 2 to the help bonus. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Fallulla Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that's what @striatic was advocating earlier in this thread. I'm not sure if it's exactly the same thing as he proposed, but very similar. I think a few of us are on the same page on this one. Good payout is nice, but I prefer the community feel and don't mind the mining help as much once I started getting used to it. Of course I like going into my little corner still in the mines with my personal rock and hammering it away all by myself, but I know there are more than a few places besides the mines that can provide good sources of work.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would like to be able to burn a rock into nothing with my laser eyes, plz

    thx
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Fokian

    Yeah, this one has been brought up a few times, so I'm going to add that to the suggestions... replaced my original Suggestion #2 with the Striatic suggestion as it does make a bit more sense.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @c0mad0r - thanks for the credit, but I personally feel @striatic and @skwid have contributed considerably more to this discussion than I have.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @c0mad0r -  the people who "help mine" currently get no bonus whatsoever, so it is sorta redundant to say that the miner should get a larger bonus than the helpers. maybe redundant isn't the best word. whatever.

    i also don't care about who "initiated mining the rock". you touched the rock first, good for you, you'll mine and get a bonus, the helpers will mine and get no bonus. that's how it currently works. if at any point the helpers end up mining the rock and you "help mine" then they get the bonus and you do not.

    anyway here's the actual idea:

    the reward when you are helped should probably increase by one. if one person helps you, you get 2 bonus chunks. if 2 people help you, you get 4 bonus chunks. this would be, by far, the simplest solution to implement. it's a straight up re-balance to make helping more obviously beneficial to the person being helped.

    it could also be managed that each and every time you help, the person you help mine gets more chunks. if they are mining slowly because they are at low level, and you manage to get three 'helps' in during their single mining action, they would receive 6 bonus chunks. if two helpers get three swings in, the person being helped gets 12 bonus chunks.

    regarding the other suggestions..

    suggestion [1] if people want to communally mine they've got to jump through hoops on every rock and/or every new person they encounter? more UI and button clicking? no thank you.

    suggestion [3] makes communal mining impossible. throws the baby out with the bathwater.

    suggestion [4] is great. encourages communal mining and older players helping newer players by giving them a substantial speed up.

    suggestion [5]  reverses all the benefits from number 4, and is just a deterrent to communal mining between players of different skill levels.

    suggestion [6] is fine.

    suggestion  [7] the intent of this idea is for nobody to ever mine together unless one player is being totally self sacrificing. if players want to do that, they already can. one player drags their chunks out of their pack, over to the other player and releases the chunks once they see the "give" verb appear.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Disagree about Suggestion 4.  Still think it will make it way less important to learn the mining tree, essentially worthless as you could just go to Ajaya Bliss and follow around someone who did take the time.  With the game opening up to new players this would really overcrowd the mines with freeloaders.  If a player has taken the time to learn a skill they should see the benefits and if a player hasn't take the time to learn the skill they should not still benefit.  It takes all the strategy out of learning Mining in the first place
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • striatic wrote: if the miner was low level and slow, and the helpers were really fast, would that make a difference?
    Yes, depending on the skill gap, right? (I feel like someone is leading the witness here ;-) A level 4 miner can finish his mining and start a second one before a skill 1 miner can finish the first. So if there is 1 low-skill miner, and 4 high-sill miners the 4 fast miners will get two taps while the n00b will only get 1. (The fast miners can "help" the slow miner, but not vice-versa).
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Skwid: but the low skill miner will get 8 extra chunks!  Pretty good considering they only needed to do one hit to get all those chunks.
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Laurali wrote: Skwid: but the low skill miner will get 8 extra chunks!  Pretty good considering they only needed to do one hit to get all those chunks

    Right. But not as good as the ≈16 extra the other 4 get each. This is just a mechanic clarification for Striatic.
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes but the other 4 have invested a good amount of time, currants, energy, donations, etc into getting to the level 4 mining, and so it is only fair that they get 16 more anyways!  
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic I updated the OP to contain your idea, but did remove a bit of the verbiage to not deter people from reading it all. Thank you for the analysis of the other ideas.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • yeah, it doesn't need all the verbiage. also, it is two different ideas really.

    the first -
    The reward when you are helped should be increased by one. if one person helps you, you get 2 bonus chunks. if 2 people help you, you get 4 bonus chunks. this would be simple to implement.

    the second-
    Each and every time someone helps, the person you help mine gets more chunks. If someone is mining slowly because they are at low level, and the helper manages to get three 'helps' in during their single mining action, the player being helped would receive 6 bonus chunks per mining action - assuming the bonus is boosted to 2.
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "if the miner was low level and slow, and the helpers were really fast, would that make a difference?
    i mean, i'm just thinking abut how to exploit it.
    "

    Yep, that's exactly the point.  Only look at it from the lower level miner's perspective.

    "Skwid: but the low skill miner will get 8 extra chunks!  Pretty good considering they only needed to do one hit to get all those chunks."

    First of all, the way it is now he/she would not get 8 extra chunks.  Secondly, that does not take into account that had they mined the whole rock alone, they would have received 50 chunks.  50 > 16 every day, all day and no matter how you look at it.

    "Each and every time someone helps, the person you help mine gets more chunks. If someone is mining slowly because they are at low level, and the helper manages to get three 'helps' in during their single mining action, the player being helped would receive 6 bonus chunks per mining action - assuming the bonus is boosted to 2."

    This is much more "helpful" and in my opinion much closer to an equitable solution.  The person who is being "helped" is the only person who doesn't have a choice in the matter. 

    All of the calculations assume that the players have equal mining skills.  If this were true, this discussion would not be occurring.  I like the fact that this last idea compensates for the difference in levels.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Striatic

    I modified the OP yet again to separate the two ideas. The second one is now identified as 2A) as it is along the same lines as the original idea, but is not inclusive enough as you stated to keep together.
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lovintnt, re "… that does not take into account that had they mined the whole rock alone, they would have received 50 chunks.  50 > 16 every day, all day and no matter how you look at it."

    What you say is true, BUT: there will always be X people out mining and Y rocks in total. The current system is much better than the old system (one person mining at a time, so if someone got there first you'd be locked out) every day, all day, no matter how you look at it :)

    In the rare case where you have the brand new/fresh rock you want all to your yourself, you would indeed get all 50 (as you do now). In the much more common case where there are all kinds of people around, mining away and the rocks are in various stages of use, you'd be lucky to get a bit here and there if you are lower level.

    If all that matters is that you occasionally get a rock all to yourself and you want to guarantee no-one else gets any of it (and, e.g., it doesn't matter how much ore you get per hour of effort you put in) then you can stake out various spots, get a sense of the relative traffic, wait till a rock freshly spawns and then hope that no-one else comes along while you go at it.

    But, given that there are many people wanting a scarce resource, the solution that averages out the best for everyone is "help mine" or some variation on it. No-one "owns" a particular rock, everyone shares and everyone does a bit better than they would do otherwise.
    Posted 15 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here's what we've decided to do for the next iteration:
    (a) If someone helps your single mining action twice (because they mine much faster than you) it will be counted as 2 "help"s instead of 1. And,
    (b) Have each additional "help" produce increasing returns so that the first help gives 1 chunk, the 2nd gives 2 bonus chunks, the 3rd gives 3, etc. So, if you had 4 "helps" in one slow, low-level mining action, you'd get 1+2+3+4=10 bonus chunks instead of 4.
    Posted 15 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, thanks stoot!! Amazing work!! Love that idea!
    What happens if there are say 3 people mining, all at the same time? Will it follow the same principles? e.g. 1+1+2+2+3+3 etc. etc. ??
    Posted 15 months ago by jjbob Subscriber! | Permalink
  • stoot barfield wrote: if you had 4 "helps" in one slow, low-level mining action, you'd get 1+2+3+4=10 bonus chunks instead of 4.

    Thanks Stoot, this is excellent!
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That seems to deal well with the skill level differences issue. Thanks for the info, @stoot.
    Posted 15 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • jjbob, I don't totally follow. But, if 2 of the 3 are helping the first person then they have (at least) 2 "helps" which would mean 1+2=3 bonus chunks (instead of 2). If the 2nd two, in the helping position, were both faster and got another one started while the first was still mining, then it would be the example I started with (1+2+3+4).
    Posted 15 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also: megaroxx: sometimes when rocks re-spawn, they will respawn with a capacity of 150 rather than just 50. This will be more likely to happen with sparkly and less likely with dullite. Should help too.
    Posted 15 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks Stoot! At least this way, under the new proposal we can:

    1) Change the perception to show helping actually... "helps"
    2) See an increasing reward for those helping
    3) Show that the MORE people help, the more the original miner gains as a result of receiving said help

    Looks good to me! I'll make sure to tell my friend things are a bit different this time around.

    Thank you all for your suggestions and for keeping the thread mostly on track hehe... Congrats to striatic for having the idea closest to what the devs decided on trying out!
    Posted 15 months ago by c0mad0r Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've been reading this with some care, as I'm very much a casual gamer and not interested in the efficiencies and high-level strategy pursued by several of the people here. 

    As such, for me, the answer to striatic's question -- "why is "mining air" a problem?" -- is that, well, it reminds me of the times I was a kid and was left at the dinner table finishing my food after everyone wolfed theirs down and got to run out to play.  It's tolerable if you still have something yummy on the plate, but if the plate's empty and you're still forced to sit there, watching everyone else have fun... well, then, that's just not fun.

    I like stoot's solution, a lot, but I'd also add that if the rock is gone, it would be a kindness to end everyone's mining cycle, so mining air doesn't happen.
    Posted 15 months ago by Radasha Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow stoot, this is awesome, thank you!!!
    Posted 15 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am a newer player, and hadn't realized that there were so many small nuances to everything.  I would sometimes help someone mine when I came across them, just because I thought it was a  friendly thing to do, and helped the person out.  Now I am worried that people thought I was encroaching on their rocks. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Super Jeebs Subscriber! | Permalink
  • stoot barfield wrote: they will respawn with a capacity of 150 rather than just 50. This will be more likely to happen with sparkly and less likely with dullite.

    This is interesting, and welcome. Will be nice to randomly get an extra 100 chunks from a rock!
    Posted 15 months ago by Skwid Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm completely confused now.  I still like to mine at my leisure without any help, and I would at least like the choice if someone wants to help me mine.  This would be a simple yes no answer before the other person started mining.  I understand when it is crowded having more than one person mine a rock is necessary.  Going to Ajaya Bliss is fricking hell.  I love all the sparkly but cannot handle 5, 6 and even 7 people whacking at my rock since I only get to mine it one time.  If I want to jump all over the place and push in to mine someone else's rock you still only get one or two whacks and it isn't fun.  There should be a limit on how many people can mine the same rock.  You do have to wait for rocks to regenerate and when others help you mine they are only helping theirselves and don't think for one second they are helping you to mine since not one person has ever said "here take this sparkly I mined from your rock".  The other person is mining for their own personal gain and if they can take more of the rock than you they will.  I had higher mining skills but like to mine at my own pace,  now I feel like I'm in a ratpack race to hurry up and wipe out that rock or lose out.  It is going to be a hard go when we all start over again as so many people will be mining and have low levels of skills.  Still it will be a blast to watch how everyone reacts to being unskilled.
    Posted 15 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • not one person has ever said "here take this sparkly I mined from your rock".

    You get given the rock that they helped you with. You'll notice that when someone helps you, the chunks of rock flying into your bags are always in 2 parts*,  the stuff you mined and the help you received.  Additionally the local chat tells you   "you mined some sparkly, you get 5 chunks of rock and it cost you XX energy"  and there's another message,  "you got XX rock from the help you received from A person and B person."

    * sometimes it's 3 if your stack is overflowing
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • thanks stoot : ]
    Posted 15 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While I appreciate the change, I've always hoped for a modified version of suggestion #3: make rocks behave like barnacles.  Let me mine a whole rock at once, and if someone else starts mining the same rock while I'm still mining it, give that person the whole rock, too.  In order to encourage mining parties, the chance of bonus pieces and gems could increase depending on how many people are mining the rock together.  "Too easy," I can hear stoot saying, but there's nothing too challenging about mining anyway.
    Posted 15 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • " it would be a kindness to end everyone's mining cycle, so mining air doesn't happen."

      As it stands,  if the visible rock is mined away before I finish my mining, I still get rocks,  it just doesn't look like I'm mining anything.  Your suggestion seems to  mean I would have wasted my time on starting mining purely for aesthetic purposes.  I'd rather still get the rock, thanks.
    Posted 15 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • interesting changes...!  should be interesting!
    Posted 15 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I 100% agree with Stoot, that the only thing that needed to change was the number of chunks a person got.when being helped. The way mining is now is the most fair.

    The problem is that people will always feel if they get say 10 chunks from a rock, then THEY have a right to the other 40 chunks from the rock. When in reality, the only thing that belongs to you is the 10 chunks you already received.

    Sadly even though stoot and the devs made an even better solution, people will always be complaining
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • stoot re: "...In the rare case where you have the brand new/fresh rock you want all to your yourself,

    As the chief banana of this operation, before calling me out in a public forum it would behoove you to read all of my posts on the subject.  I have not advocated abolishing "help mine" but rather modifying it.  Here is just one of the things I've said on the subject:

    "I don't think anyone here has said that rocks belong to them because they were there first.  I would simply like the "help mine" to actually help the original miner, considering that is the ONE person who has no choice in the matter..."

    My suggestions have been more to limiting the number of people who can "help mine"or possibly allowing large groups to help mine only when they have higher mining levels.  These may not be the best solutions, but right now they are the best solutions I've heard. I realize that that doesn't mean anyone else agrees, but it is my opinion.  For you, or striatic, or anyone else to say that I "want a rock all to myself" is at best wrong, and at worst inflammatory.

    You might also want to go back and read some of the posts by xoxJulie and others.   Splendora expressed the problem very eloquently.  Perhaps, like striatic, this is only about chunks/minute and chunks/energy expended for you.  If that's the case, you will likely not see the problem either.  But for many of us, it is a matter of perception.

    Yes, your "fix" of increasing the number of chunks based on the number of "helps" makes the output somewhat more equitable, but it does nothing to address the problem.

    ETA:  Upon further consideration, I realize that this might actually help ease the problem, albeit in a roundabout manner, by making it less attractive to "help" someone mine.  If a lower skill level miner starts a rock and is joined by 2 higher skill level miners, the original miner would potentially get 18 chunks, while the two higher level "helpers" would get (approximately) 16 each (2 actions x 8 chunks/action).  Thus, the higher level miners would make better use of their time by starting a fresh rock and alternating who is the "helped" and who is the "helper." 
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm sorry, but could you state the problem as you see it in a single simple sentence? 

    I too thought that the solution TS implemented would have solved the problem you are concerned about.

    My understanding is that you want "help mine" to actually help the first person who arrives at the rock.  In other words, that the first person who arrives at a rock will get more rocks if someone helps them than they would if they mined alone.
    Posted 15 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No actually I would like the help mine be an option for the person who first started mining a rock, for instance if you were mining a rock and I wanted to help the rock could state "help mine" which the first miner could then click yes or no.  Aljaya Bliss is horrible with 4-6 players helping you mine every single sparkly rock.  I had all the mining skills and yet at best could only mine once or twice and the rock is gone.  Then everyone jumps around and does the same thing to every rock that regenerates.  If you don't go along with the claim jumpers you might get a count of 50 after 30-45 minutes which equals one rock mined alone.  It doesn't seem very fair that everyone can't enjoy mining in Aljaya Bliss without being trampled.
    Posted 15 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • xoxJulie, as I understand, you want the first person to get to a rock to be able to decide whether or not to share it?

    Here's what stoot said about that
    But, given that there are many people wanting a scarce resource, the solution that averages out the best for everyone is "help mine" or some variation on it. No-one "owns" a particular rock, everyone shares and everyone does a bit better than they would do otherwise.

    It doesn't sound like they're going to implement a solution that allows one person to use a scarce resource without sharing it .
    Posted 15 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • shexycorin, I wasn't thinking that having the animation stop would mean that you'd be cheated out of your full load of rocks.  I was thinking that you'd get it, just that your stint would end at the same time as the rock disappeared.  (So that would be another benefit to being helped - not only would you get extra rock, but you'd get extra time, too.)

    But, as I say, I'm not in this for the sort of careful cost-benefit analyses I know other players enjoy (it's too much like work, for me).  I like the world to "make sense" more - when the rock's gone, I shouldn't stand there whacking away at where it used to be, because there's nothing to hit!  For me, personally, this is an aesthetic, perceptual problem, not a goods-getting problem. 

    (As in my analogy, presumably I've finished my dinner and got a full meal, but I'm still sitting by the empty plate, wishing I could play with the other kids, who finished their meals, but got to run out and have fun.)
    Posted 15 months ago by Radasha Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Reality really sucks sometimes and your right WindBorn I'm sure my idea won't float but it never hurts to ask or make a suggestion.  Perhaps a variation of my idea could work.  So often there are other rocks for other miners to go pick at but some people are obsessed with the idea of helping you mine.  The idea of more than 2 people picking at the same rock is bizarre everybody loses yet people keep doing it.  I don't understand the logic behind this behavior.  Maybe the help sign yes or no should only be displayed when there are enough rocks for everyone and when it gets crowded then of course rocks should be shared but not by groups of 3 or more miners.  When that happens it feels like mob rule and you get ran over.
    Posted 15 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I don't think anyone here has said that rocks belong to them because they were there first.  I would simply like the "help mine" to actually help the original miner, considering that is the ONE person who has no choice in the matter..."

    Nobody has had to say that they feel the rock belongs to them, but the entire argument hinges on that point.  Example:

    Player 1 mines and gets 10 chunks of rock.  Player 2 comes by and finishes the rock with their faster mining and Player 1 ends with only 10 chunks of rock.

    Well, those who are arguing for a change to mining would look at this situation and think "Player 1 could have had 50 chunks, but instead only got 10".  Which is a backwards way of viewing the situation.  The other way to view this situation is to see this and think "Player 1 was able to get 10 chunks from that rock before it was completely mined"  and then Player 1 move on to the next rock and see how many they can get from that rock.

    The second is actually backed by the mechanics of the game, and nobody is saying you have to play that way but this game is, after all, the product of the developers.  I think the game is intended to be the way they designed it.  You can't kill people in this game either (unless you give noobs nono), and I don't complain that *I* want to kill other players and you have no right to encroach on my playstyle by not allowing me to kill other players. 
    Posted 15 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With a game like Glitch, there are going to be multiple use cases, and sometimes it's impossible to optimize for all of them.  Consider the following use cases:

    (1)  Player A with Mining I skill wants a large quantity of rock chunks of a particular kind. When this player finds the type of rock needed, players B, C, and D with Mining IV skills appear and use "help mine."  Although player A gets more rocks out of his single mining action than he would have otherwise, he does not get the quantity of rocks he needs to reach his goal and must search for another rock of the same specific kind.  So the actions of players B, C and D are not seen as helpful by player A, especially if the particular kind of rocks he is seeking are not easy to find.

    (2) Players E, F, G and H want to mine together, and they'd like to get some kind of bonus for that -- e.g. more total chunks from one rock, less energy spent per chunk -- in keeping with the idea that we can accomplish more/better/different things collaborating than we can working alone.  These players might all have only Mining I skills, or they may have a mix of skill levels.

    (3) Player I, who is Level 5 or so, has just taken up mining.  She notices that mining uses up quite a bit of energy, but that it uses less when others come along and join her using "help mine."  Since Player I is trying to get as many rock chunks as possible with her limited food supply, Player I thinks this is great, even though sometimes an area gets mined out before I's food supply runs out.

    If the game limits the number of people who can "help mine," that might be good for use case 1, but it's bad for use cases 2 and 3.  Also bad for use cases 2 and 3 if players have to ask for permission each time they want to use "help mine."

    There might be solutions that works for all of the above use cases, but have other consequences.  For example, you could provide a feature that lets a player block others from helping them mine, but adding features like this increases the complexity of the game and the learning burden for new players.  (I've seen good apps ruined by going down that road.)  You could make rocks more plentiful, but going down that road can result in a game that loses its zest because there's no challenge -- or in a game that's unbalanced, e.g. with mining so attractive that no one raises animals, plants trees, etc.

    User interface design is complicated in ways that aren't immediately obvious. When use cases conflict, there's not much point in arguing about which use cases are more common or more important based on individual experience. When it's not possible to optimize for every use case, the best the devs can do is rely on data-driven use models when deciding what features to add, and then try to offer information and suggestions via forums like this to help with the less common cases.
    Posted 15 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Laurali: "Nobody has had to say that they feel the rock belongs to them, but the entire argument hinges on that point."

    No it doesn't.  And since you can't bother to read the other posts, I'm done discussing this with you.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I understand what you are saying Splendora and agree with almost all of it.  It is a community game, but there should also be a little room for when you don't want to be bothered with other people.  It isn't even over getting that sparkly rock before anyone else, I like mining the metal ones preferably by myself.  Still someone will come along and "help" me mine even when there is another metal rock in view and nobody else is even on that street.  I don't believe they even realize how annoying it is to others as everyone is under the impression that helping you mine is good for everybody.  I'm not even bothered about what level the other miner is in fact if it is someone who is new or a beginner miner I will go out of my way to help them anyway I can.  I get a real kick out of "helping" someone get enough currants to buy a home, level up or explain how different drinks will save their energy.  I'm not a greedy person or a bully, maybe I'm way off base about my ideas on mining.  Perhaps it could be attributed to the fact I live in the Sierra's, California's gold country and consider the helping miner a claim jumper.  I don't know. LOL
    Posted 15 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Julie, OT, but where in the Sierras do you live?  That's my home stomping ground.
    Posted 15 months ago by lovintnt Subscriber! | Permalink