Topic

Please can the developers remove digging up peat in the game?

In the UK we are fighting a battle to stop peat being harvested for agriculture/horticulture. Peat bogs are important ecosystems, and harvesting destroys them. Peat bogs also store carbon, so their destruction has implications for global warming. Here are a few facts about peatland destruction in the UK, but the same applies around the world:

    •    The peat fields of the UK have diminished by a staggering 94% since 1970.
    •    Peat bogs grow at a rate of 1mm a year, and take thousands of years to form, and are therefore considered a non-renewable resource.
    •    The equivalent of 20 years of industrial carbon is stored in British peat bogs alone. Millions of tons of greenhouse gasses have been released since the destruction of these habitats.
    •    When they are dried out before harvesting, they release around 400,000 tons of greenhouse gases every year – the equivalent of putting an extra 100,000 cars on the road.
    •    Its extraction causes massive devastation to Britain’s lowland habitats and puts already endangered wildlife at further risk.
    •    Peatlands also play a critical role in the global water cycle. Destruction of peatlands leads to increased risk of flooding.

Here's a link to some information about the importance of peat bogs:
www.ipcc.ie/pfbackground.html

I appreciate that digging up peat in game is not going to have an environmental impact, but we are trying to teach people that it is wrong to destroy these precious habitats to make their dahlias grow, and it bothers me to see it done in Glitch.

Posted 16 months ago by Pomponella Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • Perhaps red clay could be a suitable replacement?
    Posted 16 months ago by Clumdalglitch Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, that is quite interesting.  My first thought was "that's silly", but after reading this....

    +1 Pomponella.  Lets find a replacement. Like Clay, or Grass?
    Posted 16 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While I sympathize with the real-life efforts and the real-life situation, I highly doubt that any reasonably intelligent person would take Glitch as a cue to dig real peat.  Our imaginary peat regenerates within minutes, and occasionally yells things like "gitoffa my lawn," making it an extremely unrealistic substitute for actual peat.  Those who are not able to distinguish between real life and video game fantasy are not likely to be dissuaded from digging real peat anyway. 

    You might want to read this thread, which, while it's on a different topic, is still a good indication of how our community feels about bringing this sort of activism to Ur. 
    Posted 16 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you for speaking on behalf of the entire Glitch community glum pudding. I'm sorry that you see it as activism.

    Stupidly it didn't occur to me that I would be starting a thread; I think internet arguments are a total waste of time because you always get some supercilious idiot who makes it personal. I was simply hoping to communicate to the developers an issue about which they may not have been aware.

    It's a tiny change, there are plenty of other things it could be replaced with, and given the global environmental impact of peat extraction, I would rather not see Glitch condoning it, just as I would rather not have rainforest clearance in the game. That's all.

    Anyway, I don't want to be drawn in. I've made the developers aware of how I feel, and that's all I wanted to do.
    Posted 16 months ago by Pomponella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Pomponella: Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I had no idea that it was a problem and I do like to be aware. I see no harm in requesting a substitute for peat in the game.

    +1
    Posted 16 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Pomponella, I had no intention of making any debate here personal, though it seems that you just did!  :)  ("Activism" isn't a bad word, at least in my vernacular, and the Irish Peatland Conservation Council certainly seems like an activist group... where's the harm in what I said?)  I also didn't mean to speak on behalf of the entire community -- clearly, that would be impossible -- but rather to illustrate the fact that past efforts to highlight a real-world issue by altering basic elements of Glitch have typically failed. 

    It's a slippery slope: since some real-world members of the Corvidae family are endangered or extinct in the wild, we could argue that fantasy violence against rooks is irresponsible.  Destroying a nest of rook eggs would certainly be a reprehensible real-world activity, but within the confines of the game, it is logical and beneficial.  Should we ask the staff to remove rooks from Glitch as well?
    Posted 16 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It could also be argued that it's animal abuse to nibble piggies, or even use them as food (oh look! it already HAS been argued!), but guess what? They like it! It's the same with peat. Digging doesn't have the same consequences it does in real life, just like nibbling piggies isn't the same as hunting them. Or just like poisoning trees isn't the same in game as it would be IRL.

    Stupidly it didn't occur to me that I would be starting a thread; I think internet arguments are a total waste of time because you always get some supercilious idiot who makes it personal. I was simply hoping to communicate to the developers an issue about which they may not have been aware.

    It's fine if you decide not to reply to this thread anymore; however, this IS a forum, and you DO have to click "New Discussion" to start it - so it will be discussed, whether or not you choose to participate. Just to be sure you're aware of that.
    Posted 16 months ago by Cupcake Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I actually like digging up peat. 

    PS. You do realize this is a game and not RL, right?
    Posted 16 months ago by Bashere Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Pomponella thanks for the info about RL peat harvesting, I had no idea.
    Posted 16 months ago by The Cat Face Subscriber! | Permalink
  • + 1 on changing peat to some other thing/word - we can harvest "green muckle dun"  for all I care, and it wouldn't even need a change in the scenery.
    Posted 16 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • -1. Although I sympathize with the real world problems involving peat harvesting, it is a very slippery slope for the devs to decide to change aspects of the game based on sensitivities such as this: if they change one thing someone cries foul about, they have to change everything (and believe me, SOMEONE will complain about EVERYTHING). It's just impossible to please everyone, and it shouldn't be tried. If they change peat to something else due to this thread, they better remove all references to meat in the game to please the vegans/vegetarians. If they do that, they better also remove all references to violence in the game (no matter how mild), to please those that think that is morally objectional: so no more harvesting or killing anything (rocks, trees, barnacles, whatever--they're all sentient in Glitch, so you can't claim they don't have a brain, so who cares what happens to them). Next off the list is anything sexual (alot of the dialog all over the place has sexual undertones). You can say, "Oh no, but I'm referring to a real-world problem that is very serious and the devs should be sensitive to that", but believe me, every person that has an objection to every other little tiny nuance that irritates them about the game will say the exact same thing, and then Glitch will just no longer be Glitch, and I'll get totally bored of it...

    EDIT: Plus, I think most people that play this game will never even consider harvesting real peat throughout their entire lives (certainly including me), so I don't think it makes that much of a difference in the scheme of things. Other sources should be used to teach people about how it isn't right to do in real life.... Just like it isn't video game's responsibility to teach people that they shouldn't drink, or cheat on their partners, or kick people in the shin... that is up to other real life people in the community. Video games are fantasy, and are for fun, and should not be correlated to real life.
    Posted 16 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1, Shepherdmoon. What you said.
    Posted 16 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While this thread opened up my eyes to peat bog destruction and I'm thankful for that, I don't think it should influence the game IMHO. That said, you probably wont find me buying any RL peat ever...
    Posted 16 months ago by IxÆoN Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think activism through games is great, but I don't feel it's the artists' responsibility to work three times as hard to accommodate it.  So, what if when the game re-opens, those of us who care can drop a little note with a web URL next to any peat bogs we pass..?  If anyone wants to learn more they can!
    Posted 16 months ago by FlirtyvonSexenhaven Subscriber! | Permalink
  • -1  You could find niche groups to protest nearly every possible action both in Glitch and in Real Life.  We could have strip-mining protesters against having to finish a rock before it regenerates, or blood diamond protesters against having gems included.  MADD could complain about the use of alcohol anywhere in the game, and the super straight-laced could object to all of the pretty blatant innuendos.  This is nothing like some of the currently popular console games that have blood, guts, and crime as part of the standard game play.  I think the Glitch devs are striking a good balance in having a fun an interesting game for mature people without either offending or coddling too many folks.
    Posted 16 months ago by KhaKhonsu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you think that removing peat bogs from Glitch will help raise awareness for the cause, I think you might be overlooking the opportunity Glitch provides for you to share this message with a larger audience, just by having peat bogs in the game.

    I think we can all agree that peat bogs in the game will not encourage players to go out and harvest real life peat. But many Glitch players are unaware of the damages caused by peat harvesting in the real world. I certainly didn't know about it, but I generally do not think about peat in my day-to-day life. If it weren't for peat bogs in Glitch, I would still be unaware, and you would not have reached me with this message.

    It would probably be more productive for you to write a bunch of informative notes (just for information about the real world situation, I am not suggesting that you request that players not harvest the in-game bogs, that won't help your cause) and leave them around the peat bogs, rather than lobbying for the removal of the bogs. Players might read it, they might not, but if you reached only one a day, that's more than you'd reach w/o the peat bogs. With the in-game peat bogs as context, you have a greater chance of having your message read. Without the bogs, they'd just be sort of weird notes.

    * disclaimer: I'm not really a fan of bringing "real life" into Glitch, but I can easily stop reading a note if it isn't my cup of tea. Notes seem to be a good way to cater to everyone's interests without forcing people to play the game the way one individual, or a small group of people, wants to play the game.
    Posted 16 months ago by Eureka Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Eureka.
    Posted 16 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was also not aware of the peat bog situation in the UK and am glad to be aware of it now. I don't use peat as a fuel source and have no intention to do so in the future, despite harvesting it in the game. I also don't make bricks in real life, nor do I capture fire-flies or nibble piggies.I am vegetarian but do not find nibbling piggies as part of a game distasteful. If I did, I simply would choose not to play.  I do agree that the very fact that peat harvesting appears in the game gives the opportunity for issues such as this to be raised, and that is surely a good thing. I think a discussion or some research into how playing a game could or does affect a person's behaviour in real life would be interesting but I don't think a game such as Glitch would have a negative impact on most people's lives (other than spending too many hours playing it). Why not let us explore things in the game that we wouldn't do in real life - how liberating is that!
    Posted 16 months ago by Malupin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe the devs can look at putting kudzu in the game.. VERY prolific and taking over the south.  Never heard of kudzu you say?  Read about it and see photos here 
    Posted 16 months ago by MzMunchken Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was unaware of the peat issue but I just want to hop in and say that there's no such thing as a slippery slope; that it's in informal rhetorical fallacy and that devs, players, and people who post to internet forums make each decision discretely, conscientiously, and separately. This is to say that if this issue (peat preservation) acquired a certain critical mass, I'm sure nobody would hesitate to address it directly. As it is, I think you're in the (albeit interesting) minority, Pomponella, and I think you might use the tools w/in the game to raise concern –– perhaps write notes and leave them on the ground w/ the link above as their text, scattered by peat bogs?

    Good luck.
    Posted 16 months ago by Doctor Barf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While we've been working to ensure that Glitch is a welcoming environment for players of all philosophies, and have generally created a world that emphasizes compassion and accountability (as any Tree Pettifier badge will tell you), we have to trust that players don't draw strict parallels between the minutiae of gameplay and real life situations. It would not be a good idea, for example, to go around splanking unsuspecting commuters on your way to work. 
     
    That being said, by all means let us know if some aspect of the game causes you discomfort or discourages you from playing. And thanks for letting us know about the peat conservation dilemma, Pomponella! 
    Posted 16 months ago by Blanky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While we're on the subject, I'm a little worried that Glitch's public chicken-choking may prove a gateway drug to exhibitionist masturbatory excess in the real world.
    Posted 16 months ago by Doctor Barf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lol @Doctor Barf
    Posted 16 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well... I still think the easiest thing would be to change the name of the stuff to something besides peat... Could be amusing in fact...
    Posted 16 months ago by gimmegames Subscriber! | Permalink
  • roflmao Doctor Barf!
    Posted 16 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • sometimes a person just needs to harvest some grain all of a sudden
    Posted 16 months ago by Doctor Barf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with several people above me, thank you for bringing this to attention, but there are many many things in game that could be considered offensive in real life (good example about splanking).  I am pretty much always against censoring content, unless it is racially/sexually/otherwise degrading or oppressive, then if a user does not like certain aspects of a game it is always their option to discontinue playing.  I am not suggesting anyone here should stop playing Glitch, just that it's impossible to please everyone and so it is the duty of the players as opposed to the creators to determine what they find appropriate/inappropriate.
    Posted 16 months ago by Laurali Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ok. Good lord.

    First of all, one correction:
    I'm not trying to stop people individually digging up peat in real life, I'm trying to stop them buying compost containing peat to put on their gardens. Most people are unaware that unless a commercially sold compost has 'peat-free' on it, it contains peat. They are also unaware of the damage it does. And everyone with a garden/window box buys compost at some time in their life. And that is beside the quantity that is used by commercial growers. Unless otherwise specified every plant you buy, and every cut flower you buy will have been grown in peat. It's an issue that affects everyone. And not just in the UK. If anyone on this thread has bought a plant or a bunch of flowers they have unknowingly contributed to the problem. Thus it's important to raise awareness so that market forces can bring about change. Anyway, that's beside the point.

    There's a huge wave of censorship here. Because some people got upset about one topic, you can't bring up anything else? I was under the impression that the developers were encouraging ideas, comments, suggestions, bug reports. The reason I didn't think that this idea would cause a furore was because I didn't think anyone on here would have even heard of the issue before, let alone have strong feelings about peat one way or another. And as far as I can tell no-one really does.

    There are actually some genuinely good reasons for keeping it in game. For example: The way peat is being dug and used in the game is more akin to the way crofters used to do it in the old days which was not environmentally damaging, and slow enough to allow the peat to regenerate. That's a pretty good reason, and relevant, but I haven't been criticised for my content so much as for starting the ball rolling down a slippery slope which is NOT a good argument in any scenario. It's an argument that stagnates discussion.

    I was making a suggestion to change one word, and would have been entirely happy to hear that the developers had considered the issue and had a reason for keeping it in. I wasn't prepared for the defensiveness of the players. I believe that in any area of life - game play, politics, work - if you see something that upsets you you should comment on it. We are fortunate that in the West we are able to do that without being arrested, and you should also be able to do it without being ridiculed. I understand that you're all very fond of Glitch, as am I, and don't want to see changes to it, but I do rather feel as though I've borne the brunt of bad feeling over previous discussions. I sympathise with the vegetarians but I don't agree with them. Separate issue. Can we not judge each suggestion in isolation?

    Anyway I've had my reply from the developers, thank-you Blanky, so let's all move on shall we?
    Posted 16 months ago by Pomponella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While this is educating, may I remind you that this is just a game. What about all the games with guns, tanks, cars, factories, diggin peat.. cmon.

    You lost me at global warming anyway.

    I love diggin' peat!
    Posted 14 months ago by LųĉĩđεşşΨ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Keep in mind that this is the same game that has No-No Powder and a related achievement called Dragon Chaser. That is perhaps a more important social issue than the peat digging. But I don't want either to go away, they are part of what lend this game its unique charm.
    Posted 14 months ago by Toksyuryel Subscriber! | Permalink