Topic

Dusty Stick

I am just wondering what is the big deal? What do they do?

Posted 9 months ago by Sir Rachel Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • Guys, guys, guys: It's a *dusty*!
    Stick!
    I get the whole "they've got something I don't got" argument.
    But, presumably MOST (?) of us are adults?
    The whine factor is...JUST! Insane.
    Would those of you complaining say any of this stuff in person?

    Picture this:

    So, you're, say, back in high school.  And, there's an assembly of the student body.  And the principal wants to calm the waters, so she sets up a mic stand, and invites all of you to stand in line to air your grievances.

    So you wait in line, you get to your turn. 

    Do you REALLY say "I think the administration was unfair to award <dusty stick> to <these students> because I didn't get one too?"

    Because if you did, I guarantee, the remainder of your time at that school would be an uninterrupted hosing down of scorn.
    Posted 9 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Kevbob Though I disagree, I am going to let this go, but can you please alter the item so one player cant trade it to another for millions of currants? So only they can keep it. I think that is reasonable, and would put all this fighting to an end.
    Posted 9 months ago by Sludge Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow i think i know why its special now!! I do wish i got one or at least got some fiber and after reading allllllll of these i find it unfair that only some people got them because of a bug!!!!!!!! A bug really? Its completely random just because people lost things and i didnt why would you give them something
    Posted 9 months ago by Sir Rachel Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Kevbob - "Most bugs are merely annoying...this bug was a Bad Thing." I get it. It was more frustrating to more people than "other" bugs. But I wonder, who decides that it was more frustrating? I'm guessing that if you ask anyone affected by any bug they will tell you it is pretty darn frustrating to them at the time. Bugs generally are and deciding that one bug is more frustrating TO THE USER is very subjective. Although I don't doubt for one moment that this particular bug was more frustrating TO THE DEVELOPERS. Maybe they should be the ones compensated.

    I don't really care about the damn stick. But I think this situation was handled very poorly by TS. I don't care that the "victims" of the bug - even those who had no idea they were affected by it - were compensated. I even think they SHOULD have been compensated. As I said earlier, a rare doll, a special trophy, currants, or even credits would have been a wonderful gesture to help ease the "pain" or commemorate the "tragedy" of surviving the bug. I even think it would have been great to give them something BEFORE anyone else got it. That would seem very fitting and appropriate. But giving them an item, for being affected by a bug - EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE AFFECTED - that no one else has the opportunity to get was a prescription for conflict.

    I do not believe TS was trying to create conflict. I believe they genuinely were trying to do something nice and didn't realize it would lead to this uproar. I doubt they even thought about what would happen with the people who never had the opportunity to get the stick. They were focused on the problem, fixing the problem, and compensating for the problem. It would be great if they made an adjustment to allow others an opportunity to get the stick, but that is unlikely to happen. The best we can hope for is that they will have learned from this episode and will make adjustments to their process in the future. I am optimistic of that happening.

    To those affected by this bug, I am truly sorry for the frustration you had to deal with. I am glad you were compensated, even though I don't agree with the method of compensation. I never intended to minimize your difficulties, only to suggest that others have also had difficulties in the game and were not compensated at a level any where near to this. For those who are telling people to grow up, it's only a pixel stick: That is true. And the items missing or lost were only pixel notes or whatever also. You can't say that it's tragic to lose a pixel this and call it whining to lose a pixel that. It's not logical.

    Finally, I disagree with those calling for a ban on selling this or any item. I don't believe it would help ease the bad feelings. At least if they're put on auction, some other people will have the opportunity to get one.

    P.S. My caps are not intended as yelling. I am using IE and there are no formatting options, so caps are my only option for emphasis.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I didn't know I was affected, I thought it wouldn't matter and it would all get sorted out.  I'm a hoarder, with bags of stuff all over my house.

    I decided to go and have a look around the house, it's all a mess, bags are either full or empty, they may have the name I gave them, they might not. There were a couple of massive piles of stuff lying about. It all needed sorting out.  Putting back, sorting, sorting... Some stuff is missing.  I  know some of what's missing and will be able to get it back, but some of it I'm not sure.   I can let Glitch know what was missing and they'll replace it. 

    Not knowing you weren't affected doesn't mean the collection of stuff you've been building up over the months isn't in a complete mess with lots of stuff missing
    Posted 9 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hey all! Wanna get an idea of what the Dusty Stick looks like? Head to my glitch blog merth-of-ur.tumblr.com

    If anyone with a dusty stick would be willing to take a screen shot of the item info and send it to me please contact me in game.

    Congratulations to all who got one, my sympathies on your lost notes and things :(
    Posted 9 months ago by La Mariposa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • *what it looks like in animation
    Posted 9 months ago by La Mariposa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Didn’t say I was leaving, @Jewel Stoned, I said I cancelled my subscription. So you’ll have my warm fuzzy wuzzy self around Ur for a long time yet to come, given I don’t get banned for speaking my mind. You can wipe those tears away from those red, half-closed, glazed eyes of yours now.

    I cancelled because I’m not going to pay a game company for the privilege of being excluded. I can get that for nothin’. Maybe those with the obvious superior grace and maturity who call this whining don’t see the insult in being left out of special giveaways. Good for you. You’re obviously waaaaay better people than I could ever hope to be in my dark, dank wretched whiner’s corner. Keep on taking those bee stings like a good little brave bear should, until your nose has swelled to the size of a watermelon and it finally occurs to you to move away from the hive.

    To make it clear, unless you missed the part where I said I don’t give a damn about the stick, jealousy and fairness are not what I’m on about. You don’t heal a wound by stabbing another person in the back. But that’s just what TS did. “Hmm, we screwed these people by losing their notes and beans, so let’s just give them a consolation prize, and screw everyone else in the process.”

    My only course of action in saying that I don’t think this was a real good decision on their part? I protested with my wallet, same as I do with any business. Yeah, I know, big whoopeee. It adds up to roughly one smoothie that ol’ Stoot won’t be enjoying on my dime. But it makes me feel better. This ain’t high school, @crashtestpilot. It’s a business with a bottom line, and negative business decisions receive likewise negative returns. But if I were still in school, then I guess I would have just stepped up to the mic and told the principal that if he wants to give pudding to only a few students at lunch, then I’m going to bring something from home instead of paying for a dessert-less meal. Not complaining, just stating a fact.

    KevBob, I didn’t say it was a conspiracy. I stated that you were intentionally instigating derision/division amongst the players. Looking at the posts here, I don’t think I was wrong in my assumption. Was it intentional on your part? Surely you don’t expect me to believe that you, with the level of intelligence required to be a developer, did not even consider how the “have not’s” would react to being left out. If the thought truly never crossed your mind, then I’ll believe it wasn’t intentional. But that’s a real hard sell. Otherwise, you knew of the fallout and proceeded to alienate folks anyways. The definition of intention: purpose or attitude toward the effect of one's actions or conduct. If your attitude was one of complacency, then the result was intended.

    I think I’ve said my peace. I won’t read this thread again, so all you brave little bears can save your breath if you wish to call me names or berate me again.

    A denial, a denial, a denial, a denialllllllllllllllllll :) :(
    Posted 9 months ago by N2ZOrtolanaBlue Subscriber! | Permalink
  • -deleted-
    decided not to feed the sticksnit.
    Posted 9 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Bruja...you still have a pink heart showing your a subscriber (just sayin)
    Posted 9 months ago by Sir Mixalatte Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, my, God.............wow at this thread.  Seriously?  Over a damn stick. Are you kidding me?
    Posted 9 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Sir Mixalatte, Bruja's sub just isn't renewing. When you cancel, it doesn't take affect immediately .
    Posted 9 months ago by EzBreezy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm truly baffled by trying to imagine what fairness rule TS broke.

    As best I can tell, it has something to do with some players getting an item that other players have no way of obtaining. Apparently, an exclusive trophy or badge does not break the rule, even if only one player can ever obtain that badge (Hburger, clare).  

    So, SB-1 is ok, even though the only known way of getting one is because a dev likes you.  

    The rule also only seems to apply because the item can be transferred to another player in exchange for currants.  But SB-1 can be sold on auction, so that's not the full rule.  

    And the Christmas Yeti is OK, because all players (at the time) had an equal chance of obtaining one.  Again, these can be sold, so it's not the value (in currants) that caused the problem.  Although someone earlier seemed to imply that a less valuable item would have been ok.  

    So I'm not real clear what rule(s) TS broke.  I don't understand what community expectation they violated, even though it is quite clear that for some players it was a very, very important rule.  

    Without being snarky, can anyone explain what you expected that was different from what happened?
    Posted 9 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I can't see the point playing a game where you can get EVERYTHING special because others have it. Especially this style game. Surely that would kill this particular genre, we all can get rare items. The longer or more you play, the more chance of getting some of them. Others are more like achievements that the winner can share with others if they want to.
    Personally I do try and collect rare items but I know I will never get a yetti and I really can cope with that. It's more like a badge of an experience had that you were just unable to be a part of.
    Posted 9 months ago by jiva Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Windborn, I think you are too focused on "rules." I don't think anyone here has said, or thinks, that TS violated any rule. As to your SB-1 example, if that is truly the only way to get one, I think that's flawed too, personally.

    You didn't say if you've read all the posts or not. I tried to give a level-headed, non-emotional explanation of what I'm thinking about 9 posts above yours. If you still don't know where I'm coming from after reading that, ask me and I'll try to clarify. I am not trying to be snarky, but I am truly trying to answer your question, which I also assume was not intended to be snarky.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was not affected. I would just like to say I think it is a very nice gesture.
    Posted 9 months ago by MrVolare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Audaria, the second paragraph is what has me puzzled.  You say what appear to me to be two contradictory things

    a) I don't care that the "victims" of the bug - even those who had no idea they were affected by it - were compensated.  I even think they SHOULD have been compensated.

    and
    b) But giving them an item, for being affected by a bug - EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE AFFECTED - that no one else has the opportunity to get was a prescription for conflict.

    So, is what you are saying "they should have been compensated, but everyone else should have an opportunity to get the item too"? 
    Posted 9 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the people effected by this bug should have been compensated with somthing more like a full set of dolls (maybe even inculding the yeti) and gng. In other words somthing very rare but a item there are other methods to getting one. Even though I might disagree with tiny speck a bit here I belive that it was a very genourus move and doesn't have have any other sinister purpose.
    Posted 9 months ago by koolaroo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The old hands that have been around since the first beta will remember the introduction of the 12-sided die.

    Initially the only ones in existence were a couple of dozen manually hidden around Ur. People spent many many hours hunting for them and they changed hands for incredible amounts of money.

    A month later the Toy Vendor was introduced and everybody could buy one for a handful of currants.

    In summary: chill. They might be available to all at some point in the future. And if not, we'll probably have forgotten all about them by then anyway - I'm sure we'll have something else to argue about soon.
    Posted 9 months ago by Snazzlefrazz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Windborn - ah, I see what you mean.

    re: a) I meant that I don't mind them being compensated...I'm not complaining because they WERE compensated, that I, in fact, think that they should have been compensated.

    re: b) My point was that compensating them by giving them something that can be used in the game, but that no one else could get, was wrong. They didn't "do" anything to earn the extra item and many people have experienced bugs without being given an item that no one else could get.

    If it was a badge, or a trophy for surviving the bug, no one could deny that they had indeed "earned" it. Kind of like those "I survived the winter of '09" or whatever t-shirts that people wear. So, yes, I guess I am saying that everyone should have the opportunity to get THIS item, but that TS could have come up with something that did not need to be available to all.

    Is this more clear now?

    Snazzlefrazz - I remember those days. I think the difference here is that TS said the stick will NOT ever be available again.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes. TS being nice to folks that had tonnes of crap disappear is cruel and unusual punishment.  I get that.

    Wow.

    No, I do not get that.
    Posted 9 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Right. So clearly it's better to ignore anyone's attempt at reasoning and focus in on one false assumption that you have. Very helpful. Very constructive.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Audaria,

    If the item had been like Senor Fun Pickle, instead of something that gave "fiber", which looks like it may be useful for something in the game, or if the item had been a unique music block (which the crab would count in its rotation), would those have been ok?

    In other words, if there were no potential game value, (for example, the stick only emitted rainbows, which couldn't be used for anything except amusing your fellow Glitchen), would that have been ok?
    Posted 9 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Your problem is that you try to reason on a premise that I already fail to understand, Audaria. I honestly could not care less about TS deciding to give out special items to every player who's character name starts with "A".

    You are annoyed that some players got something special without "deserving" it. I fail to understand why it is a problem that people get special items. In the end, no matter how you try to justify it, it all boils down to jealousy ("They have something. I have not. They didn't do anything special to get it.")

    I fail to understand how you can be jealous of an item that has no value in the game, other than making other people happy. (And no, I don't own a dust stick. I think it's a nice, harmless idea to give them out. An item that apperently is something socializing. Nice. Curious to see one using it. Absolutely uninterested to add one to my collection.)
    Posted 9 months ago by Louis Louisson Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Honestly, Windborn, I never got that far down the path of "what ifs." I should probably think about it before I give an answer, but at first blush, I would say no, it would not be ok. My "seat of my pants" reasoning goes something like this: a stick that only emitted rainbows would still be something that can be used in the game and by giving it to people who got one bug, but not giving it to other people who got a different bug, they would still be "favoring" one group with a gift that the other group did not get. This may be flawed, and I may feel differently after sleeping on it, but I don't think so.

    We are still just trying to understand each other's position, right? I feel a little bit like you may be trying to lead me into a trap. I assume and hope that is not the case.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am more than certainly sure that once those "fibers" will get game value, there will be other possibilities of obtaining them. It has always been the philosophy of the developers that you should be able to play Glitch alone, without interaction of others, if you dont want that interaction.

    I could also even imagine, that this whole thing is a joke, and the fibers will never get useful at all.

    Creating a monopoly of ressources is, in any case, not the philosophy Glitch was pursuing so far.
    Posted 9 months ago by Louis Louisson Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stop the arguing about it's not fair because they were just affected by a dumb bug or that it's just a Toy and it's no big deal. I find it hard to choose which side to agree on. And that's not even what this thread is about! And other threads have been closed because of the arguing. it's not something to get a big deal over.
    STOP THE MADNESS
    Posted 9 months ago by AwesomeCardinal2000 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Louis Louisson - Clearly you have made up your mind about "MY PROBLEM" and nothing I say will change it. I don't care. You can say I'm jealous all you want, but you have nothing to back that up. I have said nothing to indicate that I'm jealous and you saying that I am only makes you look like a fool. If you don't care about this issue, then don't comment on it. Don't read this thread. If you have no opinion on the thread, fine. This thread is for those of us who do.

    And by the way, YOUR "failure to understand" is not MY problem. It is YOUR problem.
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Guys, when it comes down to it:
    It's.
    Just.
    A.
    Stick.
    This will not benefit you in real life. It does not make you supreme ruler of the universe. It was a kind gesture of TS to give it to people who had lost items. I do admit I am jealous of those who recieved it. Even so, there's not really a reason to make such a huge deal out of it.
    Posted 9 months ago by SeerQueen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I do hope that fiber will be available to everyone not by means of the dusty stick.
    Posted 9 months ago by AwesomeCardinal2000 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Audaria
    (I'll ignore the rest of them if you will)

    So, at the moment, the basic unfairness is that it was an item in the game, as opposed to a badge?  

    How does the SB - 1 fit into your thinking?

    And no, I'm not trying to trap you.  I'm truly curious about the unvoiced assumptions people make about what "the right thing to do" is.  Sometimes those assumptions turn out to be self-contradictory.  
    Posted 9 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also, the stick you have the chance to get but the badge if you didn't lose anything, you can never get it.
    Posted 9 months ago by AwesomeCardinal2000 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I only have two fibers at the moment from the Dust Stick, but I'm going to start a thread in the marketplace to give them away as I get new ones.
    This won't change the fact that some people are upset they didn't get a stick, but hopefully they won't feel left out completely this way.
    I hope this calms the current forum clashes to some degree rather than inflames things.
    If I find it makes things worse I'll withdraw the offer.
    I'm only trying to help.
    Posted 9 months ago by xombiekitty Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I usually don't bother to collect the fiber after I unleash the dustbunny...that way others can collect it :-)
    Posted 9 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • No need to be aggressive with me Audaria.

    I was, just as you said, just trying to be reasonable. I did not attack you. I merely stated my impression that, if I take all your arguments and words serious, I can only come to the conclusion that the main explanation that is left is jealousy.

    Jealousy, besides, does not even have to be a bad thing. It's just an emotion like any other.

    Or how would you explain the fact that you feel apperently very, very strongly that there has been an injustice, and other people don't have the same feelings? What makes those people different? How is it possible that some people see this stick as a symbol for wrongdoings, whereas others say "its just a stick"?
    Posted 9 months ago by Louis Louisson Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would explain it by saying that she feels very very strongly, and not try to add an emotionally-laden label to her feeling.  Only she can tell us whether what she is feeling is "jealousy".  You and I certainly have no way to insist that we know better than she does how she feels and what the "correct" name for that feeling is.  

    How is it possible that some people have strong feelings and others don't?  Um, basic human differences?  I'm quite sure that I don't have strong feelings about all the same issues that you do.  One person's lack of feelings about an issue does not negate anyone else's feelings about the same issue.  
    Posted 9 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Windborn
    (Deal. I feel like we're 2 people focusing on each other to try to get through a storm.)

    I think that is part of the unfairness, but also the fact that it seems so blatantly subjective. Apparently it is assumed that the people affected by this bug were horribly traumatized, but that people who have been affected by other bugs throughout the history of the game were not. It seems like they're saying that one person's "pain" is more important than another person's "pain." I just don't get that.

    I think that if SB-1 can only be had by being gifted it by a staff member, then that is also wrong. That truly does set up an elite class of staff "pets" which is fundamentally unfair. On the other hand, maybe they're given out by consensus, a nomination process or something. If everyone has an equal opportunity of receiving one, and it's not based on being liked by a staff member or popularity, then it doesn't really matter if there aren't many given out.

    I'm enjoying this conversation. It helps me to clarify what I'm thinking as well. I'm curious what your opinions are?
    Posted 9 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I cannot believe this thread is still going... x_X Especially since staff has already weighed in on it.
    Posted 9 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that is part of the unfairness, but also the fact that it seems so blatantly subjective. Apparently it is assumed that the people affected by this bug were horribly traumatized, but that people who have been affected by other bugs throughout the history of the game were not. It seems like they're saying that one person's "pain" is more important than another person's "pain." I just don't get that.

    Just food for thought: My impression is that the reason here is exactly NOT that people are horribly traumatized. It's just that a terrible bug happened that should not have happened, and TS wanted to apologize by adding something "fun" to the game. I don't think it's coincidence that the dust stick apparently only works in a group, eg. is NOT something that you put on your private shelf to look like a trophy.

    As I see it, TS made a programming mistake, and in the end, they reward us all: The ones who were affected, and the ones who were not affected (by being part of a dust bunny running around "show").

    My main curiosity is still: How can it be that some people feel "injustice!" here and other people feel "nice idea!"
    Posted 9 months ago by Louis Louisson Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you to Audaria and WindBorn for actually give us something civil, insightful and thought-provoking to read <3
    Posted 9 months ago by Aurora Dellaterra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If I could post gifs, I'd insert a popcorn gif right here.

    Can we call this whole thing, "Stickgate"?
    Posted 9 months ago by Sindee☆Cyanide Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm thinking it's worthy of a documentary on the History Channel.  Where did the sticks come from anyways?  Aliens!
    Posted 9 months ago by Aurora Dellaterra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My opinion is that this bug apparently struck far more people than usual, interfered with their game play for almost a week, and caused some of them to lose irreplaceable items, items that mere currants could not compensate for.  

    Because of the nastiness of this bug, staff, being able to see how much more destructive it was, decided by consensus, that players who had suffered this handicap and irretrievable loss deserved something fun, more than just a badge, to encourage them to keep playing in spite of the fact that the game was not much fun for them for quite a while.  

    Since, for once, they could tell exactly who had been affected, they chose to send each of these affected players a gift.  A gift that did not give them any game play advantage, but did bring some fun back into their experience.  Staff did not assume that currants would compensate, nor would another unnoticeable badge on the achievements page.  

    So, in my opinion, staff did the right thing.  They gave these people a fun toy that does not harm anyone else's fun by giving these people an in-game advantage.  It's just a thank-you gift.  Thank you for sticking with us even when the game wasn't fun any more for you.  

    I don't believe that exclusive items somehow make the game unfair.  Some people have the SB-1.  For me, it doesn't really matter how staff decides who gets it.  I believe in the basic fairness of staff, so I don't worry when some  people get stuff that I don't.  

    I hope that in the future, TS staff continues to do these unexpectedly generous things.  This game encourages generosity in ways I've never seen in any online game (or most RL games, for that matter). 

     I would be very sad if everyone in the game had to always have access to exactly the same things that everyone else did because of some belief that the only way things can be fair is if no one is different from anyone else.  
    Posted 9 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Sir Clare

    Stop envying people with a "Stick". It has nothing to affect you in real life physically, and the "Bug" you're talking about is losing GNG's, Pickles, Dolls, lots of rares. And they only got a Stick in return.
    Posted 9 months ago by I Love You TS Subscriber! | Permalink
  • -deleted-
    do not feed the troll.
    Posted 9 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Crashtestpilot - Well, people with sticks are, as (bizarrely) stated elsewhere, part of a new Glitch uberclass... because of all the class-warfare subplots inherent in Glitch.
    Posted 9 months ago by Djabriil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • the uberclass of useless stick owners, apparently. all hail.

    i don't think i have ever been happier to have moved on to WoW than i am as of reading this thread. it's one useless item that does nothing but drop another useless item. you guys need to relax.
    Posted 9 months ago by Rev. Desdemona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think we should stop debating about this issue. TS has made up their minds, and there is nothing we can do to change it. All we can do is hope that they do not make the same mistake again. :)

    @Tibbi Lol, they had to have made some mistake for not anticipating all of these arguments, which will hopefully come to an end soon.
    Posted 9 months ago by Sludge Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There was no mistake, and I hope there are new opportunities for interesting gifts in the future. :)
    Posted 9 months ago by Tibbi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow. I am only weighing in on this thread to add a vote so when Tiny Speck looks to see if they should ever do something nice for some players they will lean in the direction of being nice. I guess that some people think that  "fair" and "equal" are the same. I don't want to be disrespectful, but that is a lesson I tried to teach my children that they can be treated fairly, without being treated identically or equal. They are different people. Circumstances are different. Responses are therefore different. And, as has been said eloquently, "life isn't fair, Highness." 

    So put me down on the side of, "How nice TS, and thank you for trying to make it right with players." 
    Posted 9 months ago by Mac Rapalicious Subscriber! | Permalink