Topic

Tree Wars: Let the Community Decide

Personally I find tree wars a big yawn. Now if the majority of Glitchens want tree wars, I am down with that and can adapt my game play. However, I suspect the majority of Glitchens would prefer to spend time doing something other than trying to keep certain kinds of trees available so that new players can complete quests, etc.

Because trees are easy to kill, a small group of people can, in effect, impose their idea of fun on the entire community. Imposing your idea of fun on other people seems to me a lot like imposing your views of religion or politics on people who don't want to hear about them. I don't need to come to an online game to have that kind of experience.

So here's a proposal: Let the community decide. Provide a way to "bond" trees to the world so that, if enough players provide bonding energy to the tree, the tree cannot be killed except by rook attacks. If the player community wants to make sure there will be spice trees on East Spice and West Spice, people will take the trouble to "bond" those trees, while perhaps leaving others areas free for those who want a PvP (yawn) game.

UPDATE:  Let me put this a different way.  As it now stands, a small group of dedicated people can change things one way, and a small group of dedicated people can change it back.  I'd like to see mechanisms for larger community involvement, including ways a player with limited time can invest in community rather than simply doing quests, leveling up, and inventing personal goals to pursue.  Let's say you don't have the time to guard trees or monitor the tree population and re-plant as needed -- as an alternative, would you be willing to, say, die to help save a single tree?

Posted 14 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • +1  Bonding could require refreshing on a regular basis, and cost players something for doing it.
    Posted 14 months ago by Scarlett Bearsdale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 .. but new name needed XD
    Posted 14 months ago by Makona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yep, I agree on the Bonding idea. I'd rather see these wars in the dumpster, but I know it won't be easy.
    Posted 14 months ago by Demetra Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Keep in mind that any method you try to use will potentially be used for harm as well.

    I would imagine a coordinated group of people looking to cause trouble would love this - if they could get together first and 'bond' gas trees in East Spice, then what? Unless you're asking for a way to literally have every player able to vote on what should be in a spot and then go on majority rule (not a good idea even without implementation issues), it seems like more potential for further trolling.

    Right now people can cause problems, but it's strictly limited by how long they want to sit there and make sure no one can change things. Most people don't have the kind of patience necessary and unless someone codes an (illegal) bot to do so, at worst you're losing some plants for a few hours. In the long run things will even out. Make it so they don't even have to be there 24/7 and you're asking for exploitation.
    Posted 14 months ago by Abby Smalls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Rooting trees to the earth maybe...as in: "that tree gonna get ROOTED"  :D
    Posted 14 months ago by Makona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It would need to be a high enough energy drain that evil groups don't bond all the streets making it impossible to complete quests and achievements.
    Or implement the voting system?
    Posted 14 months ago by Cindy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow! Interesting (and great) idea!
    Posted 14 months ago by IxÆoN Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like it how it is.  People already decide how they want it. If they don't like how it is, they can change things, then the next person can come along and change it back :D
    It's perfect for a harvester like me as :
    Say a street has 5 trees on it, I can harvest those 5 twice per game day normally.
    But someone kills those 5 and replaces them with 5 others. I can harvest those 5 others too.
    So... the more people mess about with spice and gas and gas and spice, the more I can just hang around the areas where gas and spice grow and harvest until my bags overflow :) All I need is some fert. dust and I'm set :D
    Many thanks to all tree war people, whichever "side" you're supporting, you guys make me happy :D
    Posted 14 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Or just limit the tree poison to one use per game day?
    Posted 14 months ago by Ferozstein Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's not the killing of trees that's the biggest issue anymore. The group poisoning the trees treated other Glitchen very badly. They baited everyone into getting angry and frustrated and then made it look as if they were the victims. Trust me, I observed the whole thing.

    Glitch DJTch7
    Posted 14 months ago by DJTch7 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Poisoning and chopping were introduced, at least in part, to counteract the problem that bonding created.  A real solution would be to balance poisoning/chopping/digging/tending/planting so all sides can win.  But, balance would not be a solution to a dev goal for Glitch of having a certain level of conflict.  They've made a couple of alterations in the meantime to get conflict closer to where they want it.
    Posted 14 months ago by Tingly Claus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, I don't know that people get this is a zero-sum game.

    The harder you make it to change a tree, the harder it is for that tree to be changed once someone succeeds in messing it up in some way. Consider that there are threads on the front page calling for both killing trees and saving trees to be made harder. Because of the same general incident.

    The best solution is for changing trees to be easy. That way the general public will eventually win out over the dedicated individual, as no person/group can keep it up indefinitely, and if it becomes enough of a problem an opposing dedicated group will be formed in response.

    So, y'know, like it works perfectly fine the way we have it now.
    Posted 14 months ago by Abby Smalls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So why is the bonding a cost that should be paid by players to preserve something that already exists? It's like buying a house and having to invest energy in it to keep it from falling out of a tree or sinking into a swamp.

    Even when there are those of us who say, 'leave it alone,' there are still people who pop up and say, 'Rar! Let's poison us some trees!' as if it were a novel and new thing to do.
    Posted 14 months ago by TK-855 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Abby Smith & @Cindy - I am proposing that each player only gets to perform this act once per tree, and that a threshold number of players must perform the act before it takes effect. It's less complex than a voting system, but would prevent manipulation by a small group, while allowing the larger community to create balance in a less time-consuming way.

    Having spent about 4 hours guarding a wood tree, I know something of how tedious this can be.
    Posted 14 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • First time I disagree with a post. The world is supposed to hanger, and who says if a player bonds a free they won't change their mind and want to take it back in a couple months?

    As a newbie I don't get what the whole big deal is. Spice can grow in more places than just those streets, this will blow over if people dont give it so much attention. Who says certain trees need to be in certain places anyway.
    Posted 14 months ago by NicSTX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hanger = changing - stupid autocorrect
    Posted 14 months ago by NicSTX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Bonding will just be another form of griefing, NO!

    All you'll be doing is imposing YOUR idea of fun on them. As much as I disagree with these people killing all the spice trees, imposing your ideas onto them is just as bad, so deal with it, stop looking to the staff for help and try and fix the problem for yourself. Most attempts to fix this problem I see are "Oh, well if we had X feature we could do it...", you have everything you need to do it if you want it enough, so just go for it. Keep in mind that trolls are more commited than regular players and have the upper hand in knowing what they want, how many people have Botany that were for spice in Ix? Maybe 3-4 last night at a time at most?
    A troll could easily start now making 30-40 accounts (due to how the invite system works) , get them all to botany asap, get them all to Ix, stock 'em up on tree killer and go on a spree.
    Posted 14 months ago by Bluigi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh wow, I love this idea!!!
    Posted 14 months ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Abby. I don't like the tree wars and think it is only a small number of griefers doing it, but I think bonding would just make it worse and then irreversible. At least now, we can get them all back relatively easily.
    Posted 14 months ago by Audaria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Poison doesn't care about bonding, poison is poison.

    It's just a game, a sandbox social game.

    Want to fix the place? Be a botanist.

    Want to make a tree grow fast? Use fertildust.
    Posted 14 months ago by LųĉĩđεşşΨ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think the problem is that poisoning is too easy.  It should act more like capturing piggies, where there is a long cooldown and you can only poison one tree per street for a certain time frame.
    Posted 14 months ago by Lucille Ball Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Bluigi basically what i came here to say, so thanks for that.

    as for newbies running into problems, are most new players even aware of ix? i found plenty of spice just walking around before i discovered ix, which i only did thanks to spending far too much time on the glitch strategy wiki.
    Posted 14 months ago by Rev. Desdemona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lucille Ball: if a poison takes a lot more time, quests where you have to plant lots of trees are waaaay harder...
    Posted 14 months ago by balatik Subscriber! | Permalink
  • There should be a limit on poison, even if it's limited to once or twice a game day total or once a street per game day or something (maybe no limit inside your house). I think it'd be the easiest way to balance it without going overboard either way.
    Posted 14 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm inclined to agree that on balance, it looks like small groups of tree-botherers tend to be nicely limited in their effect as it is - basically, things get put back the way most people want 'em, and no small group has the patience or resources to stand around and bother other people all of the time - if I see someone's fighting over trees I tend to feel life's too short to do other than leave them to it; when next I visit the area it's usually been put back the way most folk think it ought to be, i.e. generally the way they've gotten used to it being.

    But yeah I do think a poisoning cooldown might be worth a shot, probably an antidote cooldown, too.
    Posted 14 months ago by Richard Head Subscriber! | Permalink
  • C'mon now. If there's a limit to the poison, guess what? All it takes is someone at 3AM getting a poison through and then it's that much easier for someone to sit there with antidotes and keep gas trees in East Spice up.

    What you want is for there to be a nice way for you individually to choose what to put in a patch and not let anyone change that. Unless you'd prefer Glitch to be single-player, that goal is unattainable.
    Posted 14 months ago by Abby Smalls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have no wish whatsoever to individually choose what to put in a patch. Nor am I interested in imposing my idea of fun on other folks. I was suggesting a mechanism that would require MANY players to participate in order to protect a single tree. I realize there are ways now to restore balance.  I'm personally not interested in participating in them because I've been there and done that, and it's simply too tedious for my tastes.  It seems to me the game is a bit out of balance, but I understand others may have differing views.
    Posted 14 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well I for one would like to get as many achievements as I can and these achievements necessitate the use of tree poison.

    Nouveau Whack Job - Used a Hatchet to clear 11 dead Trees
    Regular Whack Job - Used a Hatchet to clear 53 dead Trees
    Whack Job Deluxe - Used a Hatchet to clear 151 dead Trees
    Whack Job Extraordinaire - Used a Hatchet to clear 401 dead Trees
    Paul Bunions - Used a Hatchet to clear 1009 dead Trees
    Trainee Tree Medic - Administered antidote to 23 trees
    Qualified Botanical Health Professional - Administered antidote to 79 trees
    Respected Tree Doctor - Administered antidote to 127 trees
    World-class Tree Surgeon - Administered antidote to 251 trees
    So that is why I plan on poisoning trees. I need to kill 1009 trees, and save 251 to get all achievements. This means that I need to poison a total of 1260 trees. If I could only use poison once a game day this task would take me 1260 game days / 6 game days per real day = 206 REAL DAYS! and that's if I played continuously every 4 hours for almost a whole year. No thank you.
    Posted 14 months ago by TRB4 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • TRB4, that's other incredible view! Thanks!
    Posted 14 months ago by Inspirare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Perhaps a proportion of tree spaces could only grow certain trees.
    Maybe a third for example. So in east spice 1 in every 3 trees can only be spice. Another area it might be paper or gas and so on
    Posted 14 months ago by IrenicRhonda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @TRB4 - If the threshold were set fairly high as to the number of players required to protect a tree, I'd expect only a small number of trees to be unavailable for poisoning or clearing -- a few wood trees so new players can complete quests, enough spice trees to keep cooks in business. I expect there'd be plenty of trees left for your achievements. Indeed, I expect there'd be enough unprotected trees to allow those who want to engage in non-griefing tree wars to do so.  

    And I'll say again that I know that concerted player action can accomplish the same thing -- and perhaps that is enough. I've lost interest in replanting and guarding trees, but others may not have.
    Posted 14 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I said something about using it once per game day per street (and suggested no limit in your own house). That's 700+ trees per game day, if you feel very industrious. Nor did I mean for it to be a set value, but an example.

    I don't really care either way. It seems fine to me as is, but I could see the need to put such a limit in (and I'd happily see the same usage limit on antidote).
    Posted 14 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • OP and others are missing the real issue with last night's events.

    The tug of war of poisoining is a very lax way to interact with the game. When I go to Ix and see Gas, I know I can change it back to Spice. This is fine. Gassers are cool with this and so are Spicers. It's a very lax way to play the game. I don't see it as a war.

    What happened last night is you had people who spent 5 hours literally 5 hours, running around all of red Ix antidoting a tree when it was poisoned. It didn't matter if it was Spice Gas Bubble. They were running around like freaks antidoting. I even admit I antidoted the three Spice trees I got to take root in GGG. But, I wasn't psycho antidoting like these two or three were.

    This is the type of gameplay that is disruptive and problematic. It *wouldn't* be if Antidoting had a similar cost as poisoning though. Or if Antidoting was completely removed. So the issue is NOT poisoning trees. It's people who guard trees aggressively and persistently with Antidote.
    Posted 14 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe they were gunning for the antidote achievements. 
    Posted 14 months ago by TRB4 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Mr. Dawgg

    There's already a limit on poisoning. I'd like to see a limit on antidoting too.

    But I'd also like to see poison and antidote available as Beaker recipes.
    Posted 14 months ago by Feldman Harbinger Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If there is a limit to poisoning, there should be a limit on antidoting. 
    Posted 14 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We need a place like West & East Spice for Bubble Trees.  Bubbles are important.
    Posted 14 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Feldman,

    thanks. and yes, we were talking about beaker recipes for them last night too.
    Posted 14 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't have a problem with people sitting around poisoning/antidoting/replanting continuously. If someone has fun doing that, let them. What it does is restore some of the sense of exploration to the game even when you're returning to areas you've visited hundreds of times, because you don't know what you'll find when you get there. And I'm all for that.

    Plus, the world is large enough that there are always going to be other places you can go if the particular resource you're looking for is unavailable in the area you thought it was going to be (yes, I would take issue if there were literally zero of any particular resource harvestable, but how likely is that to actually happen?). Yay! You have an excuse to go check out a part of the world you don't usually go to. Or worst case, you harvest whatever is there and sell it to fund the purchase of what you need.
    Posted 14 months ago by juv3nal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • juvenal, they weren't having fun in a playful traditional sense. They were having fun in an exploitative, sociopathic sense.
    Posted 14 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "juvenal, they weren't having fun in a playful traditional sense. They were having fun in an exploitative, sociopathic sense."

    I was only there briefly while it was going on, so I don't really know, but if there's anything exploitative or sociopathic about it, I don't see how that is a function of the actual game mechanic of posioning/antidoting/replanting. It seems much more likely that any exploitativeness or sociopathy was in what they said to other players as they were doing it.

    If you think there's a good way to regulate against people being just plain rude, I'm all for it, but I don't feel anything needs to be changed game-mechanism-wise to prevent (or slow down the rate of) poisioning/antidoting/replanting.
    Posted 14 months ago by juv3nal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mr Dawg - My post was not specifically about whatever happened last night.  I wasn't there, so I can't speak to that.  I was coming more from having been a bit involved in efforts to keep enough wood trees available so that relatively new users can complete their tree harvesting quest.  Wood trees can be killed without poison, so the issue of poison and antidotes does not apply. Indeed, wood trees are easy to kill and it's likely in many cases that users are harvesting and clearing without understanding that the tree will not simply re-spawn, but rather will require someone to replant and fertilize if there is to be a wood tree available for the next player who comes along.

    I am not concerned about the all-in-good-fun back and forth over spice trees vs. gas trees in Ix.  It does concern me, however, if a small number of players can bend the game enough to alienate new users who cannot complete quests or more established users who are no longer able to exercise skills.  This may or may not be a problem that requires changes to the game itself -- though I know that there have been periods recently when there were new users who were pretty confused by a quest that required them to harvest a wood tree when there were zero wood trees to be found on public streets.

    Perhaps the situation I am concerned about is self-correcting.  For example, I notice that right now there are 11 wood trees out there.  Perhaps there are community solutions for the kind of situation you mentioned.  As you and others have pointed out, my proposal would do nothing to stop the manic use of antidotes by someone determined to prevent tree killing.

    I'm all for community solutions, especially if they can provide community engagement opportunities for those whose schedules do not allow frequent or extensive time spent in game play.  However, if community solutions don't work, it would be in the best interest of TS to make changes rather than allow users to become alienated and leave the game.
    Posted 14 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Splendora,

    I realize my error now. But still, the issue was brought to the forefront last night.

    I personally was part of several endeavors to keep Hackfast Quicks as all wood trees. This fails over and over again. People just chop them down wilnil. We almost need a hidden area for wood trees. Maybe the AG can solve the wood tree problem as well.
    Posted 14 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "This may or may not be a problem that requires changes to the game itself -- though I know that there have been periods recently when there were new users who were pretty confused by a quest that required them to harvest a wood tree when there were zero wood trees to be found on public streets."

    I don't actually see the absence of wood trees on public streets as necessarily a bad thing. If a newbie asks about it in chat, someone will probably say "I got one in my home, come on over" and then you're fostering a sense of community/making new friends etc. It may be that the quest should hint at this, "If you can't find a tree, ask your fellow glitches for help in chat" or something though.
    Posted 14 months ago by juv3nal Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mr. Dawgg -  You didn't make an error :)  If anything, I made the error by not better understanding the context created by recent events.  But I'm glad you now understand where I was coming from.

    juv3nal - I like your idea, but people may be cautious about inviting those they don't know into their homes.
    Posted 14 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Anti-Spicers are making a dent as of 1014@422 pm PST.
    zoggish.appspot.com/find-sp...
    Posted 14 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • juv3nal - - I think the point of limits on poisoning is the same as any other limit in game. There is a cost to using that skill and the tools of that skill. There should be the same limit on antidoting. 

    The only thing that seems more than a little ridiculous is the cry of "THIS STREET IS ONLY FOR <insert tree>" or "WHO THE HELL PLANTED THIS HERE? THAT'S NOT WHAT GETS PLANTED HERE!"

    Eh...whatever. Seriously. I'm happy to harvest what I find. I replant as I feel inclined - however I feel like reforesting on a given day or days. Sometimes it's a goal I set for myself (plant X trees and grow to full maturity in X hours). Other times it just amuses me to put a whole street full of wood trees and create an art project on that street. If it pixxes people off, if they feel better with their cyber thongs crawling up into their cyber cracks, I can't do much about that except recommend a giant chill pill. I'm not going to apologize for things that are perfectly within the bounds of the region and the game.

    Now -- if I was a giant hack and figured out some sort of hack to plant gas trees in the Forest -- THAT would be grounds for public splanking.  Or THIS
    Posted 14 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't care what tree' s are where, I'd just like to know where they are when I need to harvest them. so thanks Chrashtestpilot for posting zoggish.appspot.com/find-sp...
    also, it's pretty obvious there is a LOT more gas now, maybe enough for everyone who makes beans and works on street projects?? zoggish.appspot.com/find-ga...

    all the totals zoggish.appspot.com/locations 100 gas and 40 spice. wow & ouch ;( oh well, such is life.
    Posted 14 months ago by onelittlebird Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I like your idea, but people may be cautious about inviting those they don't know into their homes."

    That's fair, I guess, but if you don't leave anything on the floor, the harm someone could do is pretty limited. They could poison your trees, I guess, but by the time you can afford a house with trees, you can probably make currants fast enough that replacing trees (or maybe grabbing some antidote off the auction house) is not really that onerous.
    Posted 14 months ago by juv3nal Subscriber! | Permalink