Topic

People's behavior and the (soon to come?) community guidelines [Beer...]

Staff did mention in another topic that community guidelines are forthcoming.  Please bring them into the game sooner than later, please.

Yesterday, I accidentally hit the max to buy beer (I meant to buy 3) so that i could make seasoned beans for some patches I was making for someone who needed to hoe.  So, I think that was 999 beers I ended up buying by mistake.  I thought it was 9999 at first in my panic, but overnight I think it was just 999.  Either way, my bags filled up with unintended beers (some hundreds of them filling every slot I had) and I was, well, feh.

But there was a party, so I just decided to suck it up and bring the 900 or so beers to the party.  The party was in a villa and the house itself was full o crap, so I set the beers out in a line to the door of the house in the public villa area.  Now, I've attended a lot of parties, some in public streets.  We all set a ton of crap out, people come along and take what they like in small quantities.   Everyone shares, yay, party.

It was not bound to last, right?!  I'm the first to say that if it's on a public street, it's fair game for another player.  I've not been an advocate of drop/lock for anything but machines.  But last night, I really got upset by what happened with the beers.

A low level player came along, entered the villa (since the party was being talked up in global), and took as many beers as they could carry, running off with them.  A quick check of their profile at that time showed they got the money bags magoo badge (so, they sold the beer at the nearest vendor)... then they returned to get the rest of the beer.  We are talking hundreds of beers.  We were speaking to the player in local chat with no response from them and they were busy refilling and running away.  We chased them.  I opened a local IM to them, politely stating why we wanted the beer back (so, being reasonable) while using hairball to catch up to them as they went from street to street to evade us.  Others were asking staff to intervene, which did happen.

Staff got the beers back from the player (and the player got another badge for philanthropy), returned them to me, and the player showed up not very remorseful at all while issuing what may have been a mandated apology.  In fact, if anything they seemed amused by the whole thing and waited to enter the party.

So, whatever, it worked out, but I have some concerns.

First, I am not at all happy that one player could just snarf up everything meant to be shared by everyone at a party.  Yes, it was in a public area and I know better.... but parties generally work out without one person snarfing everything up.  I'm *really* sick of the selfish behavior evident in recent tests (hoarding, price gouging, market manipulation, herb garden selfishness) and I see no way for a player to counter it without having to run crying to staff.  

I could not get the player to talk to me (he claims he didn't see the messages) and he could have blocked me anyway.  Now that we get messages saying what street a player has left to visit, we can follow them... but then we can just... splank them?  I tried and was fumbling around too much while in pursuit.  But consider that griefing someone back is also anti-social.  So, our only resource when we encounter a jerk is to talk to staff.

I was, frankly, surprised that staff intervened to give me back the beer.  Especially since staff did not talk to me about the 'theft' of my items but relied on other people's testimony solely.

Staff did not intervene when those blockmakers got 'stolen' - I'm using quotes because since the game allows it, it's difficult to call it theft.  At what point does behavior cross the line?  We don't know.

If the problem was that this player picked up things meant to be shared by all, was it that they picked up all of them?  What if it had been half of them?  I only got half back because they converted the rest to currants.  What if they just picked up 10 of them, but I got bent of shape about it (I wouldn't, but some have).  We have no boundaries except for what staff decides is ok/not ok nor do we have anyway to handle problems ourselves other than to suck it up and take the loss, turn into jerks ourselves, stop playing, or ask staff to intervene.  And staff decisions may change depending on who is working.  

And staff intervention may turn into a game in and of itself because the 'thief' here really liked the interrogation room and wanted to go back to it!

So.  Yea, I will probably never put anything out in a public area again, and I'm pretty much done contributing to parties since I've seen an escalation in the amount of things a given player picks up at them.  There is more selfish play entering the game (whoopie - we all get to choose how to play!) and it really got to me last night, especially since the player was not really contrite at all.  It really seemed they only apologized because they were asked to do so and since they wanted to attend the party.

But I am more concerned that we just don't have guidelines for community play at all.  It leaves the door open for varying responses from staff based on who is on duty at the time.  It also leaves the door open for players to call foul on anything and everything - I dropped a bag at a shrine and someone swooped it up - OK or not OK?  Someone mined my rock - OK or not OK?  I waited 3 hours for this herb which someone came along and swiped - OK or not OK?  I left 900 beers at a party and someone grabbed all of them, knowing that what they were doing was wrong because they actively tried to elude us - OK or not OK?

We've heard staff say that some will be jerks, deal with it, but we also see staff intervene to return a few hundred beers that were actually left in a public area. 

So, I'm frustrated, confused and discouraged. Thoughts? 

Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • We already have limits on quoins we can collect in a day, how many times we can die in a day, how many harvests from one tree, etc.  I really hate limits but if things were to really get out of hand I suppose more limits could be added such as how many personal items can be collected in a game day.  By personal items I mean things like beer, the inventory items.  I'd hate to see that.  We can only harvest twice a day from our own trees.  I don't want to be limited in what I buy from a vendor.  I don't want limits on what I can auction.  I don't want to be prohibited from picking up what someone has apparently thrown away because there was no more room in their inventory, etc.  At the same time, I really don't want a griefer to be able to grab everything at a party and run away with it.  It was good of you to place the beers out on the street but I guess it should have been expected that some inconsiderate thief would grab them all.  I am very sorry it happened.  I hope that was a rare occurrence and I think it was.  Every MMO has griefers and some are much worse than any I have heard of here so maybe we are ahead in that respect and I hope we will continue to be.
    Posted 18 months ago by Brib Annie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I totally love the word "asshat," and now that it has been repeated by Stoot and various other people, I'm sure it will become part of the rich Glitchian culture, as well it should :). Thank you, g33kgurrl!
    Posted 18 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think I agree with what Jackie Paper said in their first post in this topic.

    I have been to 3 parties during testing, and in every one of them I've seen many people come along and dump stuff on the ground. My view on this stuff was that it was free to take providing you were going to "use" it. I grabbed a few music blocks, gave them a play, got a trophy, and threw them down again. I still have 2 of the R blocks I picked up at that first party because I'm waiting on the whole set. Once I have it, I'll probably drop them all at a party!

    I've also grabbed no-no, food, beer, all sorts. I've used most of it, not all at the parties, but at various points throughout the game.

    Now while I don't agree with the morals of picking up 900 beers and selling them, this guy was obviously doing it because he needed the currants. In a community game where items dropped are essentially "free for all", you will get people who play this way.

    You need to do 2 things:
    1) Only put things on the ground you are happy to see taken, by whoever, for whatever person.
    2) Make a note of people who are showing a lack of politeness and fair morals, and make a point of not dealing with them in the future.

    You will always get "asshats" in games like this. Creating a billion rules, stipulations and guidelines is not the way to go, it will ruin it more for the non-asshats playing the game.
    Posted 18 months ago by faitaru Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Ebil I'm definitely not suggesting that people call out every little thing they perceive as a slight or impoliteness, which is why I put in a caveat in my original post. But I do think that in situations like this, or more appropriately situations where one person causes intentional, larger-scale trouble on multiple occasions over a sustained period of time, it's reasonable to mention them by name. There have been a few situations since I've been in the game (early beta) where players have been engaged on the forums specifically over behavior that others felt was inappropriate - the tree poisoning incident comes to mind.

    Interestingly, I have far more frequently seen people taken to task in Global chat for what I would consider minor incidents, and in that case they're almost always called out by name. I wonder why the two different methods of discussion garner different reactions?
    Posted 18 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Partly because forums are permanent and searchable.  Global Chat is temporary, and only the participants in the original conversation know about it.

    The difference between sharing gossip over a cup of coffee and posting the same information to your blog. 
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • All mmos have griefers.  Free mmos attract the worst griefers because there is literally nothing to lose.

    I think Glitch (even in its current state) is the best browser based game currently out there and the best free mmo.  These things will make it popular.

    It also (in its current state) has a touchy feely, seemingly naive* community who get quickly indignant about rules and right and playing nice.  These things will make it a target.

    There has already been a thread on somethingawful**, but the thread died because people thought it was a facebook game.  They'll be back en masse though when anyone can join and someone realizes the potential for mischief here.

    You can't stop griefers with rules, you can only try to make it not fun to do so.  But the fun part is watching people get mad.  Which you can't control with rules.

    *shrug* It's interesting to watch the discussion though and it will be interesting to see what ultimately happens. 

    *wrt mmos
    ** www.google.com/search?q=som...
    Posted 18 months ago by nublet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "when anyone can join": actually, that ain't happening. There was a tweet about a month ago with a seemingly small mention saying Glitch is going to remain an invite by friends game...even at live. I replied to ask why (honestly out of curiosity, not because I care one way or the other), and I think the answer was along the lines of because they want a nicer community of people who really wanna play (and frankly, because they can). So....just a small note.
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This is so OT, but now that stoot said it, I think we should actually have an item of clothing called the "asshat." Kind of a dunce cap for party people. Similar to the random kindness, the asshat function could bestow upon the glitch a 15 second donkey-rear on the head of the offender.

    But seriously. I have not been around to see any of this crapola in motion so I have a hard time offering any constructive criticism. I have seen good players and bad and been surprised by the actions of both. People who want attention will get it by any means necessary and people who don't want attention are likely to be driven from the game (and monies lost).

    On the third hand, we should have some sort of party-foul option. If one glitch (or a group of glitches) is hosting a party, we should have some sort of party foul option to boot an offending player. Or simply allow private invitation-only parties. Could we book one of the model homes for a few thousand currents and have a guest list?

    We are here to break it. We're breaking it. Now we can help make it better!
    Posted 18 months ago by Mistress*of*Fishies Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Griefing...that'll never change. There will always be a group online who don't follow the game's rules and find fun in ruining the game for others. I believe their mantra is "The internet is serious business" as in don't take it too seriously. Which is true but it doesn't excuse inappropriate behavior whatever the setting.

    I think that the developers should put in place methods to report obscenities, report inappropriate behavior, and implement methods to enforce societal norms like the ability to get someone to leave your home if they're misbehaving. You're not going to get very far by setting up rules, I'm sure these people are already aware of what's considered inappropriate behavior if they weren't clued in already when they were chased or sent IMs asking for the stolen items back. With our help the developers should be able to "fix" areas one at a time that lead to griefing, like shared drinks and food at house parties. One idea that comes to mind, I have no idea how feasible it would be, is to add a table to homes for these parties. Guests can deposit as much food or drinks on this table as they like but can only take one of each, food or drink, per invite to the home. Problem solved. The leftover items could be returned, by the owner of the house, to the guests or left on the table indefinitely.

    Taking a page from Something Awful, have you heard of their Ban Hammer? Sometimes it's the only thing goons ( an SA term ) understand. Lowtax, the founder of Something Awful, has quite a few posts on the subject. I realize the current Glitch community want to keep things civil but once the door's opened there will be all types of people joining the game.
    Posted 18 months ago by Freeman Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I know not as many people celebrate Halloween by going Trick-or-Treating door-to-door anymore, but this totally reminds me of the old "Take one piece of candy, please" bowl outside the unattended house, only in this case there was no note asking the guy to only take one.  I'm not defending him because whenever I got to the bowl it was always empty and if I ever did get there before everyone else, I would have only taken one.  Still, you can't leave stuff lying around and expect people to only take what they need.  Not even, "Give a penny, Take a penny" works in the places I have been.
    Posted 18 months ago by Jepro Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So I noticed something when I was doing hair braiding for a local festival. When I did it for free, parents and kids squabbled and bickered and shoved and were generally nasty to each other. But when I started charging just a little bit per person (not just a suggested donation, which most people ignored), the behavior situation started to improve a whole lot.

    I don't know if there are any studies about it, but it seemed to me that by contributing, the recipients cultivated more of a sense of responsibility, ownership, and general politeness. If it was free, then maybe it wasn't worth being nice for? I don't know. I just thought I'd throw it out there...
    Posted 18 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink
  • if i was to hazard a guess, there will be large, relatively private spaces for groups to engage in their own organized activities without having to worry about random griefers interfering.

    or at least, good zille i hope so.

    basically, groups with memberships who will start out buying group halls, and then move on to creating private streets connected to those halls.

    not that these areas have to be huge, or that the majority of gameplay would take place there, but the majority of *highly organized* gameplay could use the spaces as a haven from grief.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 striatic, I agree. That'll be a great benefit of group halls. 
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmm. I'm in the camp that would like to see more in the way of glitchian self defense.

    Stoot, I love ya, but you're dead wrong on the guns thing.
    If every upstanding citizen in America was REQUIRED to take gun training and safety courses and own and carry a firearm if they are physically capable of it, we would have VERY LITTLE gun related violent crime. Mugging would become very rare. Sure, we'd have 6 months of chaos after implementation, while we cleared out the asshats, but it would settle down pretty quick. It's funny, countries with gun bans still have gun related crime, because criminals don't give a damn about a ban.

    The metaphor of a block party was used earlier in this. And it has relevance.
    If someone shows up at a block party where me and my friends have set out beer for all to enjoy and starts trying to load a cooler and steal the beer, we'll pound the crap out of them, and THEN call the cops. And our local cops will most likely not charge us with assault, because, well, this is the South. They will tell the fool that he shouldn't have tried to steal beer in front of everyone at a block party.

    Barring the ability of say, a major energy hit from splanking, which could send someone to hell if a bunch of glitches hit them at once, I would like to at least see the red/yellow cards idea.
    It would be nice if it tagged an admin immediately if a certain number of cards is exceeded in a given length of time on one player, say five in less than 5 mins? That would catch jerks griefing parties, and would also catch an individual being griefed by a group that ganged up to "card" them. It should also keep a record of who "carded" a person, and give an opportunity for a report to be filled out.
    Posted 18 months ago by Murri Subscriber! | Permalink
  • oops.

    yeah, best not go down that track.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What in the name of all things holy, and by holy I do mean southern...oh forget it what the [edited for profanity twelve hours too late].

    murri, I think you are way off base here.
    Posted 18 months ago by Nanookie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe Glitch Devs should create a new item call "The Fridge" for houses. Basically Anyone can walk by the fridge and take a beer, get some food or snack until it runs out of food (Should also let others leave some food/drinks in it).

    Or a second idea is to Create a new item call "Snacks Tables" or "an Odouvers Table". Theses tables should only last for as long as there's still food on the table, and anyone can get some food & drinks from them.

    As for Decorations, i feel like we need some sort of Furniture designed specially for displaying items like a Glass Cupboard or a coffee table to put Firefly jars on. Nobody should be able to take these items and put it in their pockets.

    Just brain storming ideas for the future, maybe the devs already got some similar ideas on their minds.

    Thx Jjjon

    PS: has anyone here played Coke Music Before it was closed down?
    Posted 18 months ago by Ben Affleck Subscriber! | Permalink
  • When I was in college, I had a roommate in a grouphouse who decided that our house party should be an open party. She also thought it would be funny and amazing to put invites in the ATM machines (these machines had doors that opened up to get your money, so you could leave a random note) to see what happened. I was so pissed when I found out--talk about putting everyone in potential danger. She was from rural NH, me from Detroit. Our life experiences made us think very differently.

    Anyway, a few hundred people showed up. And, during that party, someone pulled a real gun. Probably to show off. In the stairwell. Fortunately I stepped in--actually behind--my BIG friend from the south side of Chicago who also knew a thing or two.

    Point? my NH roommate was shocked. She didn't expect this. Me, I was not shocked--altho I didnt expect this either! And there is no great thing about being right. So, she lost another piece of her social virginity and became much wiser. 

    Glitch is losing social virginity as the world gets bigger. To that point, @zee is asking for the rules. End of test parties will go away when tests end, but what is the role of the devs in enforcing what people want? Returning the beers to zee--and sending a griefer to the interrogation room--seems a bit out of place especially as compared to the regular dismantling of machines in machine rooms. Is the snarfing of beers in a public place where the intervention belongs? Why? Because the game wants to encourage community around end of test parties? What about other tattle-tale-ing without the bonus of and EoTP? 

    Stoot answered some issues, but @stoot, to paraphrase Tevye "Where does it stop?" or more like "where does it start?" My former roomate didn't make that mistake again--but how do we define mistake? 

    Also, thank you @imbri for your thoughtful responses. You did a great service in sharing your thinking. The idea of party zones is very helpful. And, @murri, while I mean no personal offense, your weak National Rifle Association based argument/talking points turned analogy are simply wrong. Keep your guns outta Glitch. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Mac Rapalicious Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The best we could do is to complain the the devs. Or excluding people, or gang splanking. But what good will it do? The devs might dish out a punishment, but they'll do it again. Excluding others (as in, make the name public, and ask everyone not to acknowledge the person, don't leave stuff out in front of him, and generally bully him) will only lead to the game being un fun for so and so, and I can't play with the knowledge that a group of people are making an individual miserable, or vice versa. The best gang splanking will achieve is to send so and so to hell, and what good is that? Unless you've got a bunch of people waiting by the grave, and continuosly splanking so and so, so that the person can't do much except squish grapes. But who can be bothered? 
    The primary probelm with this game is that there's too much freedom in it. Freedom to pick up stuff in a house leads to burglary. Freedom to put stuff down leads to theft. The main problem is that you can do so many things, and not all of them are nice.
    PS: Acknowledge the risks of having a street party. The fact is, you just CAN'T control who attends.
    Posted 18 months ago by KitkatCat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Freedom is not the problem, IMHO.
    Posted 18 months ago by Mac Rapalicious Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Quickly point out that in Canada almost all guns used in crime are not registered becasue; what kind of idiot would register it. The countries where everyone has a gun and low crime rates are the ones where guns are seen as something to use in times of war and not as a right to have. (Switzerland)

    On the dropping things though, we did not leave a note we specifically asked him to leave stuff alone and IMed him. After he came back from interrigation he apoligised but said he did not see our messages because he was trying to run away from the devs and get out of there. It was like when you catch your 8 year old at something and he was purely soory that he got caught, not that he did it.

    I really like the carding idea, although when you card someone it should save the last 15  minutes of all of your chats. With the exception of private IMs that are not with the player. I have dealt with players in the past who have blocked me after I ask them to give something back or to leave someone alone. They have blocked me because they do not want me to follow them or IM them to knock it off. Maybe a dev should go through the chat and see what they were doing before carding/being carded to help stop system abuse.
    Posted 18 months ago by Wild Mage Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Was actually thinking along those lines when I created an idea thread about party skills, @Jjjon. Basically we need touchy and no-touchy zones in homes, and maybe something similar in other places.
    Posted 18 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have thought on this a little bit more since last night and I have an idea concerning the development of Party Zones and Party Goods.

    Party Zones & Party Organizing :
    • Creation of 'Party' or a 'Party Zone' by Home Owner, or a Home Owner in the associated Neighborhood via a Menu option. More than likely through menu option the main playing screen such as 'Host a Party'. Public streets can not be designated as 'Party Zones'.
    • Additionally a time setup might be available to schedule Parties in advance with a start/end time when initially setting up the Party as well as the ability to send invites to other players directly through the 'Host a Party' dialogue. (This actually lends itself for the inclusion of making Party events through the established Calendar)
    • Normal home security options should apply during a 'Party'.

    Home Security
    • Home Owners should be given the option that Storage Areas, Garden Patches, Livestock, Blocks, Feeders, etc, should be unavailable for harvesting, use and/or picking up by anyone but the Home Owner by default. Additional permissions should be allowed to other Players via a 'Home Security' settings page.
    • Owners should have access to a menu option to automatically 'Kick Out' and/or 'Ban' any person from their Home by selecting the offending character and then the appropriate Menu option. 'Kick Out' would remove the character for a specific amount of time, whereas 'Ban' would permanently bar the Character from entering the home again in the future unless the 'Ban' was removed. These options should also be available through an overall 'Home Security' settings page.
    • Home security options should include the implementation that players who log out within a Home they don't own should be outside of the Home upon logging back in. This is to prevent being burgled by former Guests later on.

    Party Supplies
    • By default items dropped into a 'Party Zone' are given an 'Party Supply' (or similar) designation.
    • Guests can drop any item (food/drinks/herbs/etc) of their choosing and any other Guest can pick up and use said items.
    • Items given the 'Party Supply' designation are automatically removed from the Players inventory if they leave the designated area and they were not the original owner. This would prevent 'raiding' and subsequent selling of these goods to Vendors. Items removed from the players inventory would be deposited back into the 'Party Zone' by default when a character attempted to move outside of the defined 'Party Zone' area.
    • 'Party Supply' items would be unvendorable because they couldn't be raided and if the designated Zone was the Neighborhood Street, then perhaps Neighborhood Mailboxes should be unusable during the time period to prevent this method of pilfering as well.
    • At the end of the Party, any items left by Guests and not picked up within an established time period should by default become the Home Owners property.
    • Any Guest who is 'Kicked Out' should have any items dropped onto the Zone automatically placed back into their Inventory. This would prevent any abuse by Home Owners against their Guests who were kind enough to bring Party Supplies and then kicked out unjustifiably, just as much as previous security rules protected the Home Owners against pilfering.

    ===================================

    Similar ideas have occurred to me in relation to Community Machine Rooms about no one else being able to remove Blocks except the associated Block Owner.

    I still however feel that if you leave something on a Public Zone outside of your neighborhood or home, its fair game and none of these party rules should apply. You shouldn't be able to apply item security rules on a public area. Parties in these areas should be at your own risk with no QQing afterwards if someone was a little too eager to help themselves.

    [edit for the addition of bulleted lists, because who doesn't love a good bulleted list every now and again?]
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It makes Mister Cake sad to see everyone worked and talking about guns and beating people up just because one Glitch stole all the beer.

    If me could me would buy 999 beer for everyone so that they would remember the nice friends they have instead of letting one beer thief ruin the fun for everyone.

    -The End

    PS. Me thinks you should be able to kick someone rude out of your house right away with no explanation and maybe the same for any resident to a non-resident in a housing block or complex (Though the latter should require some kind of reentry period).
    Posted 18 months ago by Mister Cake Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Jackie Piper, that's way, way too complicated.

    really, all that's necessary is to allow booting from houses. maybe some kind of "boot all" function as well, but even that isn't truly necessary.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Jackie Paper, I hope the Devs will take note of your idea's above.  Much as I am appalled at what happened at the last party, it just seems so completely absurd to me that the solution could be for Glitch to become some kind of police state or alternate version of the old west.  Your solutions seems simple and much more straight forward.  

    With all the talk of "carding" or some kind of "dinging" system, has anyone considered that, when the game resets and there will be potentially thousands of new players, the Developers' focus will not be policing social renegades?  They do that now as best they have figured out how, but I am sure that will not be the case in the future.  (And really, don't we want them to be busy making  the game better and better?)  We trust and/or hope that the Devs will do the right thing (or at least I do) and they are managing to keep up for now because the game is not yet open.  But, this is now and that will be then.

    TS will likely have to hire a whole slew of people just to keep up with addressing less controversial and more typical player issues.  Will these real people be expected to sort out what happened, who did what.. to whom.. when.. and more importantly - who was right or wrong?

    My rl job is Customer Service Mgmt and there is no doubt in my mind that going down that road is entirely unrealistic.  I'm sure there will be CSRs put in place to deal with the many unavoidable and inevitable customer issues (whether real or imagined) that will arise with an enterprise of the magnitude TS appears to envision.  Not that I think TS will have more issues than any other business concern, because I don't think that :D - it's just the way things are.  Asking TS's CSRs to play God will not work.

    There will have to be an in-game, programmed solution that TS will come up with - or no solution at all - but I don't think there is any realistic in between space.  What's the alternative?  TS Court?  TS Court of Appeals?  TS Supreme Court?  Seriously?
    Posted 18 months ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +10 Mister Cake
    Posted 18 months ago by Millie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I remember when we used to post questions and excitement about the next test. Now, many posts and comments are about a-holes. Makes me wonder what group of people were let into the most recent test.

    The gameplay doesn't feel like an enhancement with disrespectful and ridiculous people. It causes rather unnecessary aggravation. The increase in rudeness and poor sportsmanship makes me wonder if I jumped the gun by subscribing because I deal with enough jerks in RL. There are other games for bullies, thieves, jerks and I suspect that they take advantage in Glitch because nice people are defenseless. The a-holes constantly have the upper hand.

    People who say, "It is what it is, get over it," just haven't had anything egregious happen to them yet. I agree we can't regulate everything, but regulating nothing is going to make this experience go downhill realty fast for all the long-time players and others who believe in paying it forward and the thriving collective.
    Posted 18 months ago by Spellbound Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @striatic, I attempted to streamline my thoughts to make them a little less complicated. Obviously some home security options need to be implemented and i think this also includes party security. The community has embraced the idea of having their gatherings and in the spirit of the game, i think that is wonderful and should be embraced as well by the developers so these sort of activities could continue without any Home Owner worrying they will be raided by being social.

    @Princess Fi, I think its important that things like this are taken care of now in Beta so we never need to see a Supreme Court building inside a Giant's thoughts. I find it interesting however that like any society, virtual or otherwise, that eventually a system of rules and laws is typically demanded upon for the benefit of the community at large. Social experiments like Glitch are damned fascinating in my opinion.. here we have a function (Parties) completely devised of by Glitchers that was not part of the original construct of the game itself and because of the embracing of this activity by many people, we carry it one step further by wanting to ability to self-govern over those activities.

    I'm just waiting for the assembly of the First Glitchian Congress now. lol. :)

    @Spellbound, my granddad used to say 'Don't matter where you go, there will always be an asshole. (and if you can't pick them out, just hope it ain't you!) Just like any form of virtual community, there will always be those individuals who take the ability to be anonymous to a darker place and take advantage of people. It happens.

    But like Stoot said, and I completely agree with him, most people are "actually good, interesting, hard-working, loving, considerate people worthy of respect and kindness." Reputations tend to go far within small gaming communities. It's amazing on how fast word gets around on who is someone you can trust and who is someone you can not.
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What about a "Party Mode" in a house, where anybody can pick things up, but only one at a time?  (I.e. everything except "Just one" is greyed out in the pick up menu.)
    Posted 18 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Jackie Paper, If I i did not believe that "most people are good, interesting, hard-working, loving and considerate", I seriously doubt I would be playing, never mind commenting in the forums.  :)
    Posted 18 months ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Jackie Paper - what about nonconsumables? Your suggestion assumes that all drops must be consumed at the party, but many of the drops at parties aren't consumables. And while it solves the problem of those looking to make a profit, it does not solve the problem of griefers (who could pick up everything and use it just so that others couldn't... for the lulz).

    @Spellbound - I've not been around long, but of all the posts on the first page, this is the only one about a-holes and it's about a single a-hole... and being projected to assume a future of many a-holes.

    I happen to agree with stoot. The vast majority of folks are good at heart, even in a rather anonymous setting. I feel like we're approaching TSA territory... security theater imposing its show on the masses because of the actions of a few. For every rule & guideline established, we're just challenging the griefers to find another way to cause mayhem. In my experience running games, the best way to avoid griefers is to not set up specific social rules, but to let the community be in charge of their culture. I know that's somewhat counterintuitive (and occasionally difficult to stick to, as a dev, in a live and/or persistent setting), but rules and strong social guidelines seem to be griefer magnets and the more rules & guidelines you have, the stronger the pull. Of course, it helps if the devs put mechanics in place to help the community do this and, for that, this discussion is helpful. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just have to jump in to disagree with the idea "most people suck". I use a wheelchair, and in all my doins, in stores, sidewalks etc., I've found that 99% of the people jump at a chance to be helpful. I can only remember 2 times that wasnt the case. Maybe one reason people turn griefer in Glitch is the anonymity effect...they don't think they'll get caught, so why not. Also, mosst MMO's are about fighting, so people get in the habit of being combative. Coming to a game like Glitch, or FS, it takes awhile to unlearn that attitude. Hopefully, communicating with those people brings them around, and those who want to "win" the game get bored and leave.
    I have to agree with the idea of exposing the thief tho, only when the behavior is extreme and obviously intentional. As long as they dont think people know about them, there's really no reason for them to stop griefing, and no way for others to be careful around them.
    Glitch is a haven for so many of us, an antidote for stinkiness irl, and I think it will stay that way in the long run. A couple dev fixes here and there are needed, and it sounds like they're on the way.

    oh, gotta add..taking *every* beer isnt newbie behavior, anyone knows thats wrong.
    Posted 18 months ago by Phoebe Springback Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Happy 4th everyone!

    Community guidelines *are* desperately needed.  In this case, it would have been very clear for the person who's items were 'stolen' that indeed, they weren't stolen.  If items are not in your inventory, items can be picked up.

    In that same vein, we do hope Glitches show respect to one another.  If you're invited to someone's home, ask before you take a pile of items, or wait for them to be offered.  We will not and cannot intervene in these transactions.

    Just for clarification:

    The conversation I had with the new avie was simply a request of the behavior we'd like to see in Glitch  I did not force him to return the beers, simply asked for them, which he did, and apologized.

    The visit to the interrogation room was not regarding the issue above.   

    Great discussion!
    Posted 18 months ago by Pepper Rose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like Glitch cause there are not a lot of rules, too much like real life if there was.  What if we had a party area or community location, set up all the rules you want.  Everyone would then feel invited for all events and be obliged to follow the rules.

    Time outs nah, we can do better than that.  Hire the mob?  lol
    Posted 18 months ago by xoxJulie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Princess Fi, that is good to know! :)

    @Imbri, can you be more specific? i am trying to think of items I have seen at parties that aren't consumables. Mostly i see, food, drinks, herbs and the like. Notes are often left but i don't see those as an issue here. Musicblocks are some times passed around for trophy achievements but I think its on the side of caution to do trades with things of that nature. Then again, the proposal I made would still apply, another guest wouldn't be allowed to leave with the item. I am trying to think of what items you mean specifically.

    and while someone could technically pick up everything 'just for the lulz', the current game mechanics don't allow for over indulgence in drinks, for example, if your mood is currently maxed out. Plus, if the Home Owner could simply booted the Griefer, all the items would automatically be removed from their inventory and deposited back into the space based on the proposal i gave. I am assuming it would earn them a ban from the Home Owner as well.

    *shrug*
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is the interrogation room an extra location?  If so, I wanna go there :)
    Posted 18 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd like to point out that what this guy did is not griefing.

    Griefing is performing an action for the purpose of agitating others for the sake of your enjoyment.  What this guy did was take advantage of a situation because there was an in-game benefit for doing so.  Why did he do this?  Because he needed/wanted money.  Desire for money is a legitimate motivator within the context of the game.

    If you want to modify behavior, you need to address motivation.  It's better to create an environment where there's no point to doing undesirable behavior.

    In this particular instance, perhaps items could be classified as "gifts" or "party favors" and therefore be unsellable.  You could also limit the number of gifts that can be acquired at any given time.  This would also deal with the side effect of someone using one account to give tons of supplies to their own new account to "power level" or whatever.

    Also I'd like to say that good will is earned, and it's kind of hypocritical to both complain about the jerks and say how great we all are.  If there are a significant number of jerks, then the atmosphere really isn't as wonderful as we wish it to be.  If we want the community to be fun and helpful, then we should be thinking about ways to instill this within the DNA of game.  An excellent example is the quests that require you to interact positively with new players.

    Additionally, creating a system with extensive moderator intervention is cause for endless pain and suffering, both on the part of players and moderators, who will spend increasing amounts of time dealing with petty disputes, and will be seen to be taking sides.  A game where a small cabal of mods (and their player friends) who dictate terms from on high creates a class system that's very unfriendly to new users.

    tl;dr Mom didn't slap me when I did the wrong thing, she instilled a system of values (and, yes, guilt) which programmed me to behave properly in all situations, even when she wasn't around.  She made turned my brain into a porta-Mom that shapes my actions, and while I might need a bit of therapy, it has ultimately made me a better person, in all situations, not just when she's watching.
    Posted 18 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Griefing is performing an action for the purpose of agitating others for the sake of your enjoyment. "

    I disagree that this guy wasn't trying to grief, since I talked to this player.  Their attitude came through loud and clear - they were having a good time running away from us and staff.  They knew that we did not want them to take the beer and came back a second time to do it.

    But I do agree that the game itself, via quests, should be instilling more of a sense of cooperation in new players.  I've seen an increase in the number of players who want an endgame, want adversity, want to best others (so, more competition than cooperation) since beta began. These are the players who are ruining some fun for others.  I think we (the players who like to be cooperative) have been more than that for many many months, some needing to take a break because of it.  So, yes, the game could do more here very early on.

    And yes, there is a role for adversity in the game - not every one has to be namby pampy nicey nicey, but some of the stuff going on recently just sours me on the whole game (no, really).

    Stoot and PR, thanks for your clarifications of these issues.  Appreciate it very much.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • In real life if you place something that belongs to you on the ground, it's still yours. If I was having a party at a public beach and had beer and other stuff lying around, if somebody came and started picking it up and running off with it, it would reconsidered stealing and I'd be justified in calling the police. Why should it be different in the game? In real life people can pick up anything they want to also, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable for them to do so. Why do we wants game where stealing is ok just because the game mechanics allow it.
    Posted 18 months ago by FrankenPaula Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Not being funny but....

    You turned up at a party with a bunch of beers, which in your own words you dropped on the floor to share with anybody there, now you're annoyed because the stuff you dropped wasn't used in the way you had anticipated? Perhaps you should have held on to them all and just handed them out to individuals in small batches...

    On a side note, I'm assuming that parties as we currently know them (big end of test affairs) are pretty much going to stop once we hit the game proper and it's running round the clock. Group Halls will still allow a more controlled party experience after that, but I'd still suspect that there will be significantly fewer parties....
    Posted 18 months ago by RealJimBob Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 900 beers lying there in the street, and I need the money?

    No offence, but I would have done the same thing with them. Of course, if you then hounded me to give them back, conscience would probably have prevailed, but that's me. I can understand others thinking it's fair enough.

    IMHO I don't see that staff should have intervened here, sorry.
    Posted 18 months ago by Fiatpanda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Speaking as a new player, I don't think it's fair for some to make generalisations and assumptions about cooperativeness and etiquette with regards to being a lower level/new player.  I think most of us are aware of the concept of common courtesy and sharing without it having to be spelled out.
    Posted 18 months ago by Christine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm a lower level/new player, @Cassette. I've made a comment that it was likely that some of the problems were created more by the beta testers (us) than the more established players. BUT, I did leave open the possibility that some of the more recent hijinks could have been caused by more senior players engaging in a significant change conduct since I couldn't say how some of the problems could be initiated by the newer players.
    Posted 18 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • way, way up there, someone said:

    "when anyone can join": actually, that ain't happening. There was a tweet about a month ago with a seemingly small mention saying Glitch is going to remain an invite by friends game...even at live.

    That' won't solve the griefing problem at all.  People who are currently playing will be able to invite their friends, even the ones who currently aren't playing nice.  People can create a 2nd account and use that one if their first account gets booted for griefing. 

    Whether or not that statement is accurate (and I have my doubts that any staff member actually said that), it will not impact the issue of problem players.
    Posted 18 months ago by WindBorn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think I got some of your beers zee, thanks!
    Posted 18 months ago by nonpromqueen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Fokian Fool, nice to meet you.  I realise it may have sounded if I was making my own generalisations - what i meant is that the concept of sharing and courtesy is not exclusive and was really questioning the distinction between being new and established as a factor in this particular instance. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Christine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nope. True enough, @Cassette, but some of the problems would require a more abrupt change in the behaviors of the older, more established, players and, while possible, seemed a less likely scenario.
    Posted 18 months ago by Fokian Fool Subscriber! | Permalink
  • RealJimBob said, "You turned up at a party with a bunch of beers, which in your own words you dropped on the floor to share with anybody there, now you're annoyed because the stuff you dropped wasn't used in the way you had anticipated? "

    No.

    If you actually read through my posts, you'd find that I was annoyed that staff interrogated the player and that I got my beer back when other players have lost expensive items but have not had staff get their machine blocks back for them.

    Turns out the player was interrogated for something else and staff has now made it clear that they won't intervene over dropped goods in public areas.  Which is fine with me now that's it's been made clear by staff.

    That clarification about what staff will or will not do was all I was after really, which is why I titled the post the way that I did.

    FWIW, I was annoyed at that specific player's actions but know full well that I dropped the beers in a public area and that anything could have happened.  I'm not asking for that to be changed, but I think I am entitled to my feelings of disappointment in the selfish behavior of other players, conflicting as that may seem (feelings are not rational, after all).  Just as I am annoyed that only a few people here seemed to actually grok that my point in posting this was to get clarification from staff as to what they will/won't do, not to whine about the stolen beers.  Sorry if that finesse was lost.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The Interrogation room wiki article, for anyone who doesn't know the backstory to it.
    Posted 18 months ago by Hburger Subscriber! | Permalink