Topic

[Updated] Nerf Warning: Yellow Crumb, Purple and Silvertongue

Note: the original "Solutions" section of this post has been updated with more information. The changes described in this post have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

Executive Summary
In a few days we are going to make a change to the shucking behaviour of certain herbs and/or alter some herb and seed prices. What follows is a long explanation of why and a short description of some of the alternatives we are considering.[1] Feedback is welcome.

The Problem
Right now you can take a single yellow crumb flower and, given the right upgrades, shuck it to produce, on average, 2.66 yellow crumb flower seeds.

The flower and the seeds both have a base cost of 66 currants — but since one flower nets you 2.66 seeds, the act of shucking turns your initial 66 currants into 176 currants instantly. As The Rube would say: “Great deal, great deal”.

(The same is true of Purple Flower and Silvertongue, just with different base costs.)

It is fun to make lots and lots of money quickly (or lots and lots of favor, or lots and lots of iMG, or, in general, to watch your numbers go up quickly), but it is not a good thing for the game in the long term: inflation makes the game much harder for new players and renders whole other parts of the system useless because the “return” on other activities is so poor in comparison (which, in turn, reduces the choices available to return-minded players of all levels — it is harder to justify the actions/strategies that they more genuinely enjoy if something else is so over-powered.)

Background
There are two general classes of herbs: the first class (Gandlevery, Rubeweed, Rookswort, Hairball Flower) grow one herb per garden plot. Shucking any of these for seeds will always produce two seeds for each herb shucked. (For simplicity, I’m ignoring the effect of any upgrades, higher level skills, etc., and just talking about the base behaviour.)

The second class of herbs (Yellow Crumb Flower, Purple Flower, Silvertongue) grow three-per-plot and shucking these herbs for seeds is a more delicate operation: each time you shuck you have a chance of getting 2 seeds, a chance of getting one seed and a chance of getting nothing … the seeds are smaller and more delicate and harder to extract.

The odds for getting seeds from shucking the herbs in the second group were supposed to work with two random “dice rolls”, each with a 33% chance of producing a seed (and a 66% chance of producing nothing). Those two rolls together meant you had a 66% chance of getting a seed each time you shucked (really 66.6666…% — if you shucked a million seeds, you’d get 666,667 seeds, or very close).

However, when we set everything up to introduce herbs in the first place, the shucking odds were reversed and each dice roll had a 66% chance of producing a seed, instead of a 33% chance. This went unnoticed for a really long time (more than a year!) until we decided to look into what made Yellow Crumb farming so profitable and popular.

(You can see plainly how Class One herbs and Class Two herbs are totally out of balance when it comes to prices, shucking, and seeds by comparing the results of shucking: again assuming no higher level skills or upgrades, a sprig of Gandlevery, worth 40 currants, will produce 2 Gandlevery Seeds worth 13 currants each / 26 total: a 35% loss; one Rubeweed worth 55 currants will produce 2 Rubeweed Seeds worth 20 currants each / 40 total: a 27% loss, etc. Each of the Class Two herbs, on the other hand, will produce a 33% gain when shucked. With all the upgrades it is profitable to shuck all herbs from both classes: it is just much, much, much more profitable to shuck Class Two herbs.)

[Updated] Solutions
Note: the changes described here have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

We are going to be reducing the base cost of the seeds by half. (Contrary to what some players have said in the comments, this effects both the number of currants the vendors will give you for them AND the amount of favor produced when they are donated.)

This change will be made on Monday the 17th.

In addition, we will also be making changes to the base cost of tinctures (all of them will be increased) and to both the cost and ingredients required for nearly all potions (in all cases the prices will go up and the number of ingredients required will go down). This will make tincture and potion-making profitable and provide another avenue for herb usage aside from shucking and selling/donating seeds. The specifics on those changes will be announced when the change is live.

The original "Solutions" section follows, in italics:
There are two solutions we’re considering and they are both pretty straightforward: the first is fixing the bug and thereby reducing the number of seeds produced by shucking; the second is reducing the base cost of the seeds (which will make them worth less at vendors or when donated to shrines).

Even with this change, it will still be profitable to simply shuck herbs (once you have all the right skills/upgrades) so we will also be rebalancing the base costs for tinctures and potions to make it worth at least as much to create a tincture (or use the herbs for other purposes) as it would be shuck the equivalent number of herbs. That could mean some improvement/boost in the herbs’ “functionality” as well.


___
[1] In the past we've only announced changes at the time we made the change because we figured that was the fairest thing for everyone (people who missed the announcement were not at a disadvantage and everyone felt the effects at the same time). But when we made the change to upgrade tickets earlier this week there were many requests for advanced notice and so we’re trying that, as an experiment.

Posted 90 days ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • I'm considering this my warning and I'd recommend that if people have stockpiles of yellow they think about doing something with them now.
    Posted 89 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Humbabella: But new players cooking food for higher level ones wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? If one could make awesome stew and sell it for 375, investing in cooking skills would become a much more viable career choice for the young glitch.
    Posted 89 days ago by Zogje Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yeah, seems a bit . . . non-glitchy . . . to have a two-tiered society like that.

    --Me
    Posted 89 days ago by SchWM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • All I'm saying is that if people don't need to eat, for whatever reason - the availability of tank upgrades,  hell free cards, energy quoins - whatever -- then there's not much reason to have all that growing and cooking stuff in the game, then is there?    Eating should be something you need to do so that those parts of the game have some reason to exist.  
    Posted 89 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My energy is over 18k. I never even carry food because there is NO way that I could fill up a tank of that. I usually just die and use a hell card to just replenish.
    Posted 89 days ago by Jessenya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Maybe add different types of food that replenish more energy than awesome stew (and are of course increasingly involved to make) and have decent stack sizes?
    Posted 89 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've seen one other person discuss some math of the herb balance; I did some figuring earlier today (before I saw this post, even! I was just trying to figure out what might be most efficient practice for herb gardening!) and came up with the following results. Prices were based on my current buyback prices from the first vendor I found (hardware, if it matters), and growth times were taken from the glitch-strategy wiki (and seem reasonably accurate). With upgrades and skills, I have functionally 100% shucking rates, which may be nerf-ready; and the buyback prices I can get are probably dependent in large part upon what upgrades I've bought.

    My maths indicate that if people just want to sell flowers, Purple Flowers are 1.5-2x more profitable over time than other flowers; Gandlevery, Silvertongue, and Yellow Crumb are reasonable, but all of these are more profitable if shucked to flowers. At 100% shuck rates, Purple is still profitable, but since I only get 2 seeds per flower (rather than 4 from every other flower), Silvertongue and Yellow Crumb win out; but each of these three are dramatically more profitable than the remainder. So, if nerfing just ends up affecting the seed and flower prices, these values could be evened out a bit...though I do think that some differences should continue to exist!

    On the other hand, flowers' greatest value is overwhelmingly that of their applicability to their essences. For sufficiently advanced players (tincturemaking, and energy greater than about 100), there is no reason to sell seeds or flowers, when the essences claim 8-10x greater buyback prices! For lower-level players, the disparities between the herbs may be a little unbalanced (and could warrant a little smoothing out), but Yellow Crumb and Silvertongue do provide benefits that raise their value to game play (increases in iMG and learning speed). I suppose one of my fundamental premises is that at a certain point, energy is vanishinly inexpensive (remote herdkeeping and easy access to lots and lots of grain, not to mention giant icons and emblems). Flowers and seeds fetch reasonably high amounts of currants, but the difference between a bag full of Purple Flowers and a bag full of Gandlevery isn't terribly great.

    For those curious to check my math, here are my results:

    Value of flower plots per minute:
    ((Currants per Flower) x (Number of Flowers per seed) / (Time))
    Gandlevery: 0.267
    Hairball: 0.14
    Purple: 0.35
    Rookswort: 0.15
    Rubeweed: 0.14
    Silvertongue: 0.21
    Yellow Crumb: 0.22

    Value of seeds per plot per minute:
    ((Price for seeds) * (Number of seeds per flower) * (Number of flowers per plot) / (Time))
    Gandlevery: 0.36
    Hairball: 0.19
    Purple: 0.70
    Rubeweed: 0.14
    Silvertongue: 0.86
    Yellow Crumb: 0.87

    Connected, is the value for Essences (I'm ignoring energy, partially as explained above):
    ((buyback price) / (number of flowers needed))
    Gandlevery: 28.33
    Hairball: 43.40
    Purple: 10.22*
    Rookswort: 48.40
    Rubeweed: 36.40
    Silvertongue: 33.50
    Yellow Crumb: 42.50

    And, finally, value of essences multiplied by the value of plot output:
    ( ((essence buyback price) / (number of flowers needed)) * ((flower buyback price) * (number of flowers per plot) / (time)) )
    Gandlevery: 7.82
    Hairball: 6.27
    Purple: 3.58*
    Rookswort: 7.10
    Rubeweed: 5.01
    Silvertongue: 7.18
    Yellow Crumb: 9.21

    [*] This does not take into account the additional Hooch or the Tangy Sauce needed for the EoP, just the flowers.
    Posted 89 days ago by Skallish Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I feel like maybe energy lost should be more tied with the size of your tank. Obviously, I think the proportion lost should be smaller as your tank goes up, but I don't think that someone with an energy tank of 1000 should have the same rate of loss as someone with a tank of 100.
    Posted 89 days ago by Reirei Umezaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't really see the issue with making food items more desirable for higher level players, to be honest. As it is they have very limited usefulness even for low level players, and the alternatives to eating cooked meals - like eating plain meat or eggs - are still more advantageous to them because you don't need any additional items or ingredients to farm them. All that adjusting food recovery to tank size would do is make the food items better for higher level players while keeping the same level of usefulness for lower level ones, which is to say low level players would continue to benefit more from meat or eggs. Just plain boosting the energy recovery from food items, however, would make them overpowered for lower level players.

    Plus, as Zogje mentioned, it would make cooked items a viable source of income for lower level players. The cooking skill tree, without a time penalty, can be mastered in a couple of days at most (even with a time penalty I mastered the entirety of it in under 3 days). Meaning it'd be disadvantageous to buy them to use, but would definitely be advantageous to make them to sell.

    tl;dr the change would probably not impact low level players at all in terms of energy management, but it would make food items one heck of a lot more desirable than they are right now.

    It'd only ever pose an issue if low level players frequently buy food items - I don't know about others, but I did get by just fine without ever buying any.
    Posted 89 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • . . . .
    Posted 89 days ago by Leites Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that there could be problems with an economy if making things to sell to high level players ends up being too good a use of new players' time.  I might be wrong, it just feels off to me.  Now making food being a good thing to do from a purely mathematical point of view seems like a great thing.

    If I had to pick something to do to help with high level players I would make sure that absolutely nothing scaled to energy tank.  After all, the most frequently cited reason for not eating is get out of hell free cards.

    Skallish - The problem is that you can't just compare the growing time.  If you harvest nine cycles of purple instead of one cycle of yellow then you spend 9 times as much time planting, hoeing, watering, etc.  Your time has to  be worth something, so you have to deduct that from the harvest.  I do think purple wins if you actually do all nine cycles, but only by a bit and only because of the lack of superior alternative timesinks.

    But I think you are just mistaken about essences.  Yellow Crumb is worth 66, the essence is worth 431 and contains 6 flowers which is 396 currants worth, plus a hooch which is worth 15 (list price) for a total of 411.  That means you are only making 20 currants of list value for making one.  If you turn around and vendor it that's only 16.5 currants for four seconds of crafting time.  4.1 currants per second isn't a good return.  If you shucked the flowers instead they would each be worth 176 so the essence is actually a massive loss.  That's why everyone is selling seeds to the vendor.  You make more selling the seeds of three yellow crumb flowers than you do by making an essence of our six of them.
    Posted 89 days ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't agree with this revamping.  I've seen this same kind of revamping with other things to the disadvantage of experienced players.

    I was a newbie once too and I worked my way up and learned all the skills so that I could shuck more.

    And recently I have paid for Imagination Upgrades for the advantage of being able to shuck more.

    So, the way I look at it I earned my current capabilities.  It's like saying your too rich so we are going to make you poorer so that the poor people can feel better about themselves.

    Sorry!  I don't agree with this revamping, as you put it.
    Posted 89 days ago by Sir Lovealot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Skallish-I suspect a typo somewhere has snuck in.

      Wandering Confusion's 1st table represents the same values as your 2nd table " Value of seeds per plot per minute:". Both are in units of (currant/plot)/time. 
    You both have all the appropriate maxed out skills and cards. The difference in vendor buyback does not account for the difference in results as each herb has a different varience in comparison to WC's.
    For example your value for Yellow/Silver is touch lower than hers but for Rube it's less than half. So the vendor is not the only difference in methodology or typo b/c we cant drop spreadsheets into forums :)

    For table 2 can you display the values you used?

    ETA: @Sir Lovealot--this revamp, if it is Option A, will hit the new newbies the hardest. For us old hands it'll be about margins of profit for them this could mean a total crop failure. 
    Posted 89 days ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've already stated that I don't agree with the revamping of shucking any herb.

    However, if you are going to screw the Glitchen that have already earned the capabilities that they now have then perhaps the Giant Imaginations at Tiny Speck might be open to a suggestion.

    If we must suffer this then how abouts you reduce the harvest time from the afore mentioned herbs; that seems like a fair trade off.

    And not all Glitchens are here to get rich; we just enjoy playing the game.
    Posted 89 days ago by Sir Lovealot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Whatever Humbabella decides works best for game mechanics, is fine with me. That brilliant octopus has never steered me wrong."

    Hahaha.  Yeah.  I agree with what several have pointed out here: the first proposed solution disadvantages newer players too much.  Correcting the base value of the seeds is a better solution.
    Posted 89 days ago by Persephone Pear Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here's a comparison between how it is now and how it would be if the price of seeds was severely nerfed (let's say 10 currants each so it's absolutely not worth it selling them).

    Say you have 5 large herb gardens in your back yard (so nobody else can pick up your flowers). Say you have the 75 seeds necessary to plant it up. 75 seeds = 225 flowers per full cycle (i.e. no guano). Say you get exactly 2 seeds per flower shucked (not the case, but works for comparison).

    Now

    Since seeds are worth the same as flowers, you'd shuck your 225 flowers to get 450 seeds. Plant 75. Sell the remaining 375 seeds for 24,750 currants.

    + Dung-Kicker Drops

    You can boost your gains considerably by making or buying Dung-Kicker Drops. They have 5 uses, so exactly how many you need to fully fertilize your 5 gardens.

    That means you can harvest twice instead of once in the time it takes for the herbs to grow without fertilizer with 2 potions. Your gains then turn into 49,500 currants per cycle. Say you're buying the potions instead of farming the items to make it (which you can do while your herbs are growing, and then sell off the extra guano for more profit) - it'd cost, say, 12,000 per potion (less, really, you can find them for 10k if you know where to look) which still gives you a profit of 25,500~29,500 currants (meaning it's still more profitable than not using the potion at all).

    With Cheap Seeds

    Removing the seeds' value would mean that instead of shucking all your herbs, you'd want to shuck only as many herbs as necessary to get 75 seeds (so 38 herbs with 1 seed left over, then 37 next cycle). You'd have 187 flowers left (or 188 depending), which you could sell for 12,342 currants (or 12,408 next cycle) - half of what you can get per harvest now.

    + Dung-Kicker Drops

    Same logic as above, these can double your profits per cycle (by letting you plant&harvest twice), so 24,750 currants' worth of profit, or exactly how much you get per harvest now.

    (But if you're buying it, that profit drops to... 750~4750 currants, which means it's not really worth buying. Still worth farming for, or at least buying part of the ingredients for.)

    ----------------

    So basically, just devaluing the seeds cuts the profit of this strategy by half (rough estimate since it really depends on how often someone would harvest etc) without affecting shucking for people who use the flowers for tinctures and such instead (or just newbies trying to build up their resource stash), while making shucking less effective would affect everyone (not good imo, the issue isn't the tincture/potion makers but rather those planting the flowers to sell, so...).

    Edit: Thanks for the correction, Zogje!
    Posted 89 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This nerf needed to happen; thanks for doing it. 

    If any current/past Yellow Crumb Dealers want to get together and talk about it, I made a group for us: http://www.glitch.com/groups/RHV397QLSJ83C1U/
    Posted 89 days ago by zachwulf Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @MaKai: dung-kicker only has 5 uses, not 11
    Posted 89 days ago by Zogje Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Zogje hurr my bad, I'll fix the post.
    Posted 89 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't read the comments, so sorry if it's been said already.

    I'd rather have the costs rebalanced than the bug fixed.  If I had shucked my first herb and gotten nothing (which would happen more often than not post fix) I would have been sad that I shucked it, and it would've put me off herb gardening.  Losing things that are useful is not fun.
    Posted 89 days ago by sadiekate Subscriber! | Permalink
  • sadie, even with the bug, you can have all relevant skills and upgrades and still destroy flowers (0 seeds) sometimes.
    Posted 89 days ago by diaveborn ♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Can't get this mess outa my head, but if I wrote all I want to it would end up being a thesis and I don't have time for that.

    So, if we must suffer this change how bouts increasing the number of herbs flowers harvested per plot, as well as reducing the harvest times; seems fair to me.
    Posted 89 days ago by Sir Lovealot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So, if we must suffer this change how bouts increasing the number of herbs flowers harvested per plot, as well as reducing the harvest times; seems fair to me.

    That would probably make the nerf moot.
    Posted 89 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The problem I see is that the new gardening potions are being made to supply the need that is only there because of people wanting to make currants from yc. Now, if you nerf in either way this yc currant production you will remove people's desire to buy the new potions.

    Also, as a long standing player who'd got a bit bored with game play because I'd learnt everything and done all the quests and so my wanderings were lets say rather aimless, the desire to make currants has given me purpose again. Yes, I've chosen (in part) to grow yc and sell seeds to the vendor, but by doing this I've actually been enjoying what I've been doing and isn't enjoyment in the long run the aim for players of any game?

    So, if players having fun and playing the game is the most important factor, and if some players are enjoying a repetitive part of the game, why not let them keep going with it. Not ALL players will do this, and not all players will find it fun to keep doing, but some will and will build up their currents and then spend them on overpriced trophys and rarities or helping other players or whatever else they see fit - So my question is - Is a nerf really necessary to level the field, why do we need a level field? Surely it's all part of the fun?
    Posted 89 days ago by Vialdana Subscriber! | Permalink
  • *addendum*
    I also agree with what's been said regarding food making/eating. In the past when energy tanks were of fixed sizes then eating and therefore either making or buying food was necessary for all. Now however with massive energy tanks available we have the ability to 'grow' our tank instead so that we rarely if ever need to eat especially if we use get out of hell cards and orbs instead. I don't see anythign wrong with this, it means that the game play for lower leveled new players and higher leveled long standing players is different, but 'different' doesn't necessarily mean bad. Surely the herb/currant issue is much the same? (And new players get a lot more now than they did back when some of us joined - I mean heck they get a whole house for free when they join now!).
    Posted 89 days ago by Vialdana Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "it is fun to make lots and lots of money quickly (or lots and lots of favor, or lots and lots of iMG, or, in general, to watch your numbers go up quickly), but it is not a good thing for the game in the long term: inflation makes the game much harder for new players and renders whole other parts of the system useless because the “return” on other activities is so poor in comparison (which, in turn, reduces the choices available to return-minded players of all levels — it is harder to justify the actions/strategies that they more genuinely enjoy if something else is so over-powered.)"

    I don't agree with that. Many high level players already made millions our of yellows while new players won't get that possibility.

    And it won't fix the inflation problem in the long run. There need to be more things that grab currants out of the enonomy. The yeti-vendors did that for the short term but we got valuable assets in return. Without more things that actually take money out of the economy (like tithing), inflation will return, just not as fast as before.
    Posted 89 days ago by Sare Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "if some players are enjoying a repetitive part of the game, why not let them keep going with it"

    The ability to garden is not going away. The economics of yc gathering are being changed.
    Posted 88 days ago by MaryLiLamb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Inflation will rise much faster if the herb moneymaking loop isn't fixed, and that's not good for anyone. The fact more money drains are necessary to prevent inflation doesn't negate the need to nerf the profit from yellow crumbs. Slow inflation is a lot better than rapid inflation.

    It doesn't really matter if new players won't get that possibility - new players also can't get their own Señor Pickle or GNG Musicblock, people who didn't have money when the Yeti were on sale won't be able to make money from reselling them, and so forth. If you never nerf things because people have already taken advantage of them, you'll never be able to balance anything. Equal opportunity doesn't really apply with broken game features. The fact some players had already leveled to 60 with tickets didn't and shouldn't stop them from limiting their usefulness, either.

    Glitch is also in beta. The whole point of beta testing is to work out which features need nerfing and which ones need improvement so the game may be more balanced when it actually launches.

    That said, I actually use the PM3/MG potions for my daily harvesting. They don't really depend on yellow crumb farming for usefulness.
    Posted 88 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The shucking bug was an implementation mistake. A deviation from the game design. All these other ideas and 'fiddle with the economy' brainstorms are the usual discussion that always comes whenever the players of a game are given the opportunity to express themselves.

    Fix the bug,T.S., and then we can move forward to discuss everything else (it's bountifully obvious we will do so) The bug is the .66 instead of .33 chance. If there are then other changes to make, that is fine.
    Posted 88 days ago by Feldspar Gravity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's a good point... fix the mistake that's causing the craziness and fix it soon.  Take some more time to look at the currant/img economy and the usefulness of items in the game.
    Posted 88 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot, in regards to the two solutions, I would rather see the price of seeds reduced, rather than a greater chance of failure at shucking. To be honest, I have always been bothered by the "failure to shuck" thing that's been attached to herbs, something you don't see with crops. But it seems to me that a greater chance of failure at shucking will still hurt low-level players more. I mean, I have all the skills, all the upgrades, and when shucking one or two flowers I still sometimes destroy them, forcing me to go buy seeds from someone's tower. 
    If that failure becomes much more likely, well, I'll shrug my shoulders. But lower level players don't have  a) stockpiles of herbs and b) stockpiles of currants to buy more if necessary. It seems to me that an increased rate of failure and flower-destruction would only bar the lower players from getting in on the herb-growing action. By contrast, a lower price on seeds might make herbalism less attractive to pursue, but doesn't "bar" anyone by potentially destroying their resources.   
    Posted 88 days ago by Kross, the Empress Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The original post has been updated to reflect the solution we've settled on: the base cost of the seeds will be reduced by half. This, along with several other changes to re-balance tinctures and potions, will be released on Monday the 17th.
    Posted 88 days ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for having this discussion with your player base, TS. You're awesome.
    Posted 88 days ago by Melody Pond Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This seems like a wise and well-considered change. It will be fascinating to watch how its effects propagate through the community, changing players' actions and strategies as they go!
    Posted 88 days ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love this change you will be making!!! Making potion making more profitable is definitely the way to go :D  Thank you TS!
    Posted 88 days ago by Innie✿, Obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've been mercilessly abusing this exploit.

    I'm already a Moly sub with more credits than I know what to do with, so I'm not sure how to materially express how glad I am that TS chose to give advance warning and consult the community about proposed fixes before this nerf. 

    Tell you what-- the 1st 5 "disaffected youth" who 
    1. think TS is being unfair by closing this loophole and 
    2. bring my butler a yellow crumb flower in-game 
    will get a gift of 40 credits on me. All proceeds (obviously) go to benefit TS for letting us be involved with this call.

    Nahh. 5's too normal. 7 is more prime. The first 7.

    --Me
    Posted 88 days ago by SchWM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yes, I know they sometimes lose stuff. All decisions by the ref (that's me) final. No ifs, ands, or buts. Unless it's your own butt, and then it's your business. 

    --Me
    Posted 88 days ago by SchWM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The reason that I semi-hijacked the thread to talk about food is that if TS is going to go to the trouble of nerfing Yellow Crumb because it presents too much of an advantage and is too popular, then perhaps they could also revisit a large part of the game that is at a disadvantage and relatively unpopular, even though many newer players really enjoy it - cooking and eating. 

    I believe that many options that fill your energy tank are way too easy - buying a tank upgrade card shouldn't give you a full tank of energy.  Get out of Hell Free cards should be WAY more expensive considering the benefit that the deliver.  Energy quoins in the ancestral lands should have a longer spawn time.   Etc.  

    Food is devalued in the game.   The recent bonus iMG for unfamiliar foods was a step in the right direction, but more needs to be done.
    Posted 88 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • <3 Thanks for giving us the chance to discuss the changes TS, and for listening to our input. I love the advanced notice you have given us and even though I'd have rather things stay the same, I appreciate and can respect the way this was handled. 
    Posted 88 days ago by Kittn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I completely agree with TS's decision. It will be a big improvement on many fronts. Thank you for considering it so carefully, and letting us have a voice!
    Posted 88 days ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for listening to our input in advance of the changes and coming up with a great solution, Stoot! <3 TS!
    Posted 88 days ago by Lucille Ball Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks Stoot! My brain went splodey with confusion (math? economics? what?) the first time I read this post but I came back and now I get it. I cannot begin to imagine what your whiteboards look like over there at TS.

    No matter what you guys do, I think this game is just plain fun and I'm not really out to be the richest glitch in town. And my yard just looks pretty with yellow and purple flowers. xoxo
    Posted 88 days ago by traypup Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sounds good... it will also be interesting to see the reactions of the players once the change goes live 
    Posted 88 days ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • RE:Updated

    Good Deal!
    Posted 88 days ago by Mt Dew Me Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well executed on all fronts :) I look forward to the next rebalancing discussion.

    Edit: I'm sure you guys are capable of doing the math for balancing yellow crumb, but I just thought I'd toss my thoughts on the math out there :) Based on a shuck of 2.66 seeds per flower and a new seed value of 33c, a yellow crumb flower is worth 72c. An essence uses 6 yellow flowers and a hooch worth 12c. So to make the essence worth making it has to be worth at LEAST 447c. To make the 4 seconds of crafting time worth spending I'd speculate we'd want the vendor buyback price to be closer to around 500-525c, meaning we'd want the list price to be 605-636 currants. (All non list prices considered as items being sold to the tool vendor for an 82.5% return.)

    This allows the recipe to remain the same and gives a reasonable 13.25-19.5 currants per second value to time spent tincturing yellow crumb, not considering energy expended or imagination earned :)

    As we talked about earlier, there are a good few activities in the game that enable higher per second currant generation, so this at least allows tincturing to compete :)

    Sound good?
    Posted 88 days ago by Liza Throttlebottom Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks, stoot! While I greatly enjoyed the currants I got from the yellow crumb boom, it'll be really nice to have the tinctures and potions be worth more and easier to make. That'll be a lot more fun than just picking and shucking all day.
    Posted 88 days ago by Miss Coco Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you for always listening to user input! You guys are pretty great.

    (I can't deny that as a fan of tincturing and potionmaking I am thrilled about the rebalance.)
    Posted 88 days ago by Makai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is that Monday 17th at 12.01 am PDT?
    Posted 88 days ago by Mount Aspen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • THANK YOU STOOT!  You guys always make everything okay on all sides of the spectrum :)
    Posted 88 days ago by Hersche Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you Stoot and the entire Tiny Speck team! A fair and well thought out change. (secretly hopes at least *some* of the tinctures, old potions and repriced seeds will become collectible items)
    Posted 88 days ago by Heatseeker Subscriber! | Permalink