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#### ToS breaking with keys

It is perfectly OK, as far as TS is concerned, to register a second account, send a key to your house (firebog, for example) to your first account (who's got a 50k house) and then have access to both herb and crop gardens.
Questions: Am I missing something? If not, any ideas on how to prevent this (if you consider it to be unfair, of course)?

Posted 13 months ago by Electric Wizard | Permalink

### Replies

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- DragonBlack, the difference is with sharing gardens with friends is: those are still two individuals who are sharing the benefits between themselves (no single player is reaping the rewards), and operating within the limits of normal play. BUT, the core principle behind this goes a little deeper than that, and does deserve some clarification, which I will provide soon.
  Posted 13 months ago by Blanky | Permalink
- Love you Blanky (and all other staff), but want to play Devils Advocate here. What do you consider "normal play"? :P
  Posted 13 months ago by Serra | Permalink
- Serra, that is intrinsic to the question I'll be addressing, and I want to make sure the message is crystal clear and comprehensive when it's answered!
  Posted 13 months ago by Blanky | Permalink
- What happens if you offer an advantage for everyone? For example, you offer a service and even publicize it... then those who know about it can reap the benefits, while others cannot (because they don't know/care).
  Posted 13 months ago by Rook | Permalink
- Excellent Blanky, I know everything will be handled with perfection! The staff here is awesome, one of the many things I love about this game!
  Posted 13 months ago by Serra | Permalink
- Thanks, Blanky, for piping in. What Windborn says above makes a certain amount of sense. I won't speculate what TS has in mind until they post it. But I will continue playing both of my characters. There is not reason they need to directly interact with each other, they both have sufficient income streams via different playstyles.
  Posted 13 months ago by Shootsin Latters | Permalink
- Hopefully it'll be posted very soon coz I, for one, would like to know if I want to continue playing a game that allows a few players to bitch, moan and groan and cause everyone else to have to tippy-toe around to keep from getting a bean more than they do!
  Posted 13 months ago by sgjo | Permalink
- How do you find the free TIME to maintain a second (or third, etc.) alt character? Wow. Can I have some of it? :)
  Posted 13 months ago by ✰ Lorelei ✰ | Permalink
- I respectfully have to disagree with WindBorn's statement of - "If there's a point to it, so that your first character is somehow better off, then your 2nd character is giving your 1st character an advantage. "
  More accurately, the GAME allows for the advantage by nature of key swapping. Not the act of signing up an alt or purchasing a 'second' house with it. Whether that game-given advantage can be realized or not becomes the issue.
  A strictly solo player who has no friends is effectively penalized, as he/she is unable to realize the game-given advantage that someone who befriends a random person (or close friend) through the forums is.
  Someone who coaxes his/her partner into playing the game for enough time to purchase a house (even giving the currants to purchase said house), only to have that partner essentially quit after keys have been shared is fair and legit? Compared to me investing the time and effort to start an alt and earn (not be gifted from my other account) currants to buy a different house is somehow banable?
  Simultaneous play we all agree has unfair advantages, but penalyzing the loner is just as unfair as rewarding the social.
  Posted 13 months ago by Joe Blow | Permalink
- Well said Joe Blow. I couldn't agree more. The bitchers getting their way is in danger of becoming the norm here.
  And Blanky, how is Glitch going to answer the problem of a friend starting an account, playing just long enough to buy a house and giving me a key? I have a few friends that would do this.
  Posted 13 months ago by DragonBlack | Permalink
- This is a real example: My partner played for a couple of weeks and gave me a key to his house. He is unlikely to log in more than once a month, if that, and mostly wanted to see what I was talking about.
  Can I use his house and garden as if it were mine? He's a real person who gave me a key without me even asking.
  Posted 13 months ago by Knitomaton | Permalink
- Blanky: you wrote "the difference is with sharing gardens with friends is: those are still two individuals who are sharing the benefits between themselves (no single player is reaping the rewards), and operating within the limits of normal play."
  I have some questions with this (as we all do)...
  Scenario 1: Friend (real life person) who wants to try Glitch creates account, gets house, gives me key, and eventually gives up never to come back. If I'm using his gardens "forever" is that wrong? He's no longer reaping any rewards.
  Scenario 2: A friend creates an account ONLY to help me, by getting to level 3, getting a house, giving me a key, and intentionally never plays again. Is this okay?
  Obviously, either of these could also be a family member who lives with me, or a spouse, hence having the same IP / computer ID / browser ID.
  Posted 13 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ | Permalink
- I think what it comes down to is how much Tiny Speck is going to force this game to be a 'social' experience, and how much they will allow each of us the freedom to make it what we want it to be. There isn't a place here for antisocial people who sabotage other people's fun. But if it turns into another Farmville experience where there is mandatory forced social interaction it will be very disappointing. People have the right to be asocial, and hopefully that won't be penalized.
  Unmutual. Disharmonious.
  Reactionary. Rebel. Disharmonious.
  Posted 13 months ago by Razzal | Permalink
- Looking forward to Staff clarifications on this. Good debate here.
  Posted 13 months ago by natsumi | Permalink
- Fortunately, ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦, because your friends are inactive, your proposal to kick them out of their houses will take care of the issue fairly quickly.
  Posted 13 months ago by WindBorn | Permalink
- The thing is...you don't have to be anti-social to play the game the way you want to enjoy it.
  I'm social with my friends in the group chat that I'm in, yet I like to play the game as a single player - and that can be done whether you have a single account or more than one.
  @ ✰ Lorelei ✰ - Time is all I have
  Posted 13 months ago by sgjo | Permalink
- WindBorn: my proposals always suggested a simple "log into the website for 1 second to renew" - easily done by calling a friend and having them log in (or them getting the notification emails I also suggested).
  Sorry, but please go try to pick a fight elsewhere. I accept that you don't like my other idea, but it's not germane to this discussion.
  I'm trying to get legitimate answers here to highly potential situations that could occur.
  Posted 13 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ | Permalink
- Since this is a game that never ends and is always changing, I'm not sure what "advantage" even means. This is a confusing topic to think about. I started an alt to see the new tutorial and to try starting with the BL skills. When keys were added, it made a lot of sense to buy a bog house and share keys. It doesn't seem like this could be against the TOS the way they are now. It will be interesting to see the result.
  Posted 13 months ago by Penelope Sue | Permalink
- I see several major issues here:
  1) The issue of players creating alts to have keys to their houses was handled very poorly from the very beginning. It was a mistake that keys were released without a policy already in place, and it was a mistake to fail to listen when people pointed out that this seemed to be ToS violation. Over and over we were told (by many different staff members) that if the alt/dopp account wasn't being played at the same time as the other, it was fine, no problem.
  Over and over we asked, "Are you sure? It seems kind of like an unfair advantage. You know the main reason for the alt is for me to access its house, right?" We heard back, "It's fine, anybody can get access to different gardens by sharing keys with a friend, so this is okay too." Many of us went ahead and created alts and got them houses, often to treat as de facto group halls. We were told housing shortage wasn't an issue, and we have in fact seen a bunch of new housing since then. Everything seemed grand, and then a bomb dropped today.
  The problem is not really that I disagree with the policy. It's pretty reasonable to say that a player having keys to their alt's house is an unfair advantage and thus a ToS violation. The problem is that when we suggested that was the case, we were repeatedly told it was fine, until today, when we're seeing a complete U-turn.
  This issue was easy to predict. A policy should have been in place before the key release, and short of that, when members of the community, many with quite a bit of experience, suggested there might be a problem, the response should have been "Ahhh... let us think on that and get back to you," not "Lalala, plow ahead with this questionable behavior, it's fine."
  To be continued...
  Posted 13 months ago by larky lion | Permalink
- I totally agree with you larky. I was also told by at least 4 different staff members that it was ok to create an alt so I could have a second house with an herb garden. They told me that it was not an issue cause anyone could use a community herb garden.
  Posted 13 months ago by Jeff Lebowski | Permalink
- My partner is thinking of making an account. We have both have computers. We could easily be on at the same time and I hope we will be! It's fun to play games with your partner. I'd probably urge him to get a house with a different type of garden so we can share. I dislike bots and market manipulation as much as anybody. I just hope that if there will be a rule on this that they can tell the difference between a couple in the same household playing and someone breaking the rules. I will also be watching to see what comes of this because, so far, I am LOVING this game! There are so many great things going on here.
  Posted 13 months ago by Flanuora | Permalink
- I think if they end up confirming that this is against the rules , they need to do away with the keys and not let people be able to let anyone into their house.
  Posted 13 months ago by Jeff Lebowski | Permalink
- 2) Without group halls or good friends with complementary housing, disallowing this shuts a lot of players out of new content*, which I think is very much against the spirit of Glitch. I know there are community gardens, but they have been at times fiercely competitive, especially since herbs became useful.
  * (At the moment it's potionmaking, but maybe there will be something in the future where crops are super important again, like vendors discontinuing sales of veggies.)
  It sounds like there is a good chance that the housing overhaul will render all of these issues moot. If that is the case, is it really worth making a fuss now? Let players treat an extra home as a group hall to share with a little group of friends. Let new players with few friends have a way to safely play with both types of gardens. That, or make it possible to have both kinds of plots in a home really soon. How about a potion that switches a crop plot to herbs or vice versa?
  3) As others are saying above, there is little practical difference between a spouse or roommate making an account with a house you can use (and then abandoning the game) or you going through the work yourself. Are you planning to outlaw that in Ur too?
  Posted 13 months ago by larky lion | Permalink
- I'm with larky. If someone who had an alt was gaming the auctions or something, that seems wrong.
  But I'm starting to get a little discouraged by the tone that seems to be developing here. What happened to the whimsy sort of seat-of-your-pants play? And actually, my disappointment is more with players who have epically flounced in the last couple days. Though if the alt herb garden issue brings the hammer down, I'm gonna be even sadder. I've always thought auction scripts and sniping sucked, but in the long run it wasn't hurting me, so, live and let live, right? But in an Ur where auction scripts and sniping are okay, I would have a big problem with alts with herb gardens being banned. Playing those alts is still spending the time in Glitch, and I seriously don't see that it would be an unfair advantage.
  I realize that governing these kinds of things in an online community is tough, but it's starting to make people get all clench-y. I feel like there's a lot more "IT'S MINE I EARNED IT PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS" going on, and it makes me feel oogy.
  Posted 13 months ago by Circe | Permalink
- It would be good if TS clarified exactly what "advantages" are forbidden and what are allowed. Creating an alt to enjoy two kinds of gardens is an advantage -- but there is nothing stopping any other player from getting xerself the same exact advantage.
  There are other advantages, none of them forbidden, that are not freely available to every single player. It is an advantage to have a good computer and typing skills. It is an advantage to be sociable, with a tolerance for freestyle conversation that lets you hang out in Global Chat and learn lots of stuff there. It is an advantage to have enough time to play 8 hours in a day.
  I think it is a huge mistake for TS to start demonizing alts, by definition some of their most active fans -- unless those alts are used in abusive ways. Yes, I did have an alt, I just deleted that account, and I am going to miss the fun of playing that other person some of the time. I no longer feel comfortable doing so in the current witch-hunting atmosphere.
  Posted 13 months ago by Dotcom | Permalink
- +5million larky
  Posted 13 months ago by Eleanor Rigby | Permalink
- +lots and lots to what Dotcom just said, more eloquently than I did.
  Posted 13 months ago by Circe | Permalink
- what difference would an "advantage" make in this game? is there something to win? is this game now starcraft where players are making 500k as top players or something? im confused why people care. typical gaming forum whining.
  Posted 13 months ago by Ed Anger | Permalink
- I seen quite a few people who say that devs/staffers/guides told them it was okay to make alts to get houses, especially the swamp houses for herb gardens.
  It did make me wonder why not just allow a player to have two houses or have gardens grow both crops and herbs.
  Posted 13 months ago by Pming | Permalink
- I really see no point to this...so people have alts..ok...you give keys to friends...they use your house and stuff...same concept...they have a so called advantage because they have access to another house!!! There are five people in my house 3 who play Glitch (one with 2 monitors etc.) so umm think on that...we would be on at the same time/same comp. seriously I signed up because some very good friends suggested this game to me and I really enjoyed playing but I am really tired of all the complaining...and most that complain probably have the alt account!!! or the tons of other complaints that are being put out there. This game is about helping others, ok so those others have more than you...big freaking deal. Just means you need to "play" a little harder to "get more stuff"
  Posted 13 months ago by MaxineG | Permalink
- Glitch isn't a competitive game. There are a few competitive elements -- races, Game of Crowns, street projects to an extent, and I suppose leaderboards -- but in general, no one can win the game. For that reason, the idea of "gameplay advantage" is somewhat inapplicable here.
  The big reason to have a secondary account and a key exchange is not to beat other players, but merely to have access to both types of gardens. Rather than pushing people toward something which is now considered a violation of the TOS, perhaps the developers could use an idea which many of us had when herbs were first introduced: until homes are fully customizable, let us have flower pots.
  I think most players would be content with the ability to grow one or two herbs or crops at a time in small container gardens. It would take longer to grow the twenty-three flowers needed for Essence of Purple, but it would also give each player more independence, which I know some of us truly appreciate, and it would make several of the skills more valuable.
  I understand that the staff wants to encourage specialization, and that forcing us to choose between crops and herbs is one way to do that; however, due to the current lack of content, it's inevitable that the majority of active players will learn all (or almost all) of the skills anyway. I also understand that there are community gardens, but they tend to be a source of misery for a number of reasons, and many players avoid them. There are also far better ways to encourage socialization than to push us into key exchanges, several of which are resulting in arguments and theft. Planters would be simple to make (a flower pot is easy to draw, and the mechanics of the garden plot(s) inside would be the same as those in regular gardens), and they'd solve a ton of problems, at least temporarily.
  Posted 13 months ago by glum pudding | Permalink
- Everyone is better-spoken than me tonight. Glum (and larky's earlier) point about the access to the content for dedicated players of the game (I know that the game counts the time you've played in it, and I'd be both thrilled and probably horrified to learn exactly how much time I've spent here). I was excited for the news yesterday because of the various new things that were arriving just as I was starting to hope for more stuff because what I was doing was repetitive.
  I don't really want my choice to be to give up my house on the street I love (Khoul Beens dude!), or continue grinding away at things I've done a hundred or a thousand times so I cann make a lot of currants and pay exorbitant prices for stuff that only people with bog houses can make. I'd rather DO than BUY, and that's what it comes down to.
  I love Glitch. I am a super fangirl. Just ask my Glitch-widower of a partner and my friends and co-workers. When I see a cherry tree in real life it is all I can do not to run up and pet it. Can you fault me for wanting to PLAY ALL THE THINGS?
  Posted 13 months ago by Circe | Permalink
- +1 to Larky
  Posted 13 months ago by natsumi | Permalink
- People have alts that make more money than you do?
  Do something about it besides complain.
  Or do what these people do.
  Everyone has the tools to make beacoup money in this game, even without the use of alts.
  And ironically no one is doing it.
  Am I missing something?
  I'm just saying the use of alts is ok, but no one is really doing anything about it.
  I can make easily 50k+ a day just on gems alone, not including sparkly. And that's just selling to vendors.
  Yeah, someone has an alt, and is making more money than you.
  But what are you doing about it? Besides complaining?
  Get out there, get some skills, and get them currants.
  Posted 13 months ago by Volkov | Permalink
- +5000 to Circe. I've been trying to say the same things for days! Thanks! :D
  Posted 13 months ago by Flowerry Pott | Permalink
- Creating alts and exchanging keys with them to diversify the gardens at your disposal, while clever and resourceful, is not actually ok. The key to muling, botting, and alts is to make sure you're not giving yourself an advantage over those who play with only one character.Posted 6 hr ago by Blanky
  So what you are saying is that I can give a key to a friend and they can have access to my resources but I can't give a key to my alt (also paid member) that still puts in the hours and footwork to progress in the game?? I was just trying to decide if I should sign up for a 3rd paid membership but think I will now hold off on that one.
  Is it then unfair that I have to split my time between accounts to be able to do all the skill tree and quests rather than devote all my time to advancing one account in the leader boards?
  I have a life time membership in another game that allows me 3 avatar, has multiple "job skills" that I can switch between freely (including farming, mining, cooking, fishing, adventurer and many others), a choice of homes to decorate and several worlds to explore and gather resources in. There is daily login rewards and bonuses as well as a monthly gift package for paid members.
  It is a shame that some members try to tell the rest of us that we "must" play the game the way they play it. I certainly never sign in to more than one account at a time and don't see how I have any advantage over those who choose to have a single account as it is so much easier to buy items from the auctions at times than it is to do the work yourself.
  It will be interesting to see what the end result is of this discussion and I will definitely live by the rules, even if it means cancelling my paid alts.
  Posted 13 months ago by Breezy Meadow | Permalink
- I don't understand how this became not okay. If a person is putting in the screentime on two different characters, what difference does it make how they interact?
  What "advantage" is there to be gained anyway? As long as both are not in-world at the same time, I really don't see why this is a problem.
  I guess I want to ask, "who actually CARES about this and wants it changed?" Who is harmed, and in what way?
  Bots and scripts are an entirely different question, and I think they are truly pernicious and harmful to the spirit of the game.
  Posted 13 months ago by Pascale | Permalink
- Pascale, the main advantage is they can have control over both herb and crop gardens.
  Posted 13 months ago by larky lion | Permalink
- I get that, @larky lion, but so what?
  If the play doesn't overlap, you still have two characters that still have to, somehow between them, do all the work. Nothing is "free." It's a zero sum.
  Where's the harm?
  Posted 13 months ago by Pascale | Permalink
- I would consider (not perform) that as an act of creativity for the soloer, I mean, there is going to be an update that both peeps(herb and crop) will love in the future so I'm not really getting the point here.
  Posted 13 months ago by Rook | Permalink
- So, I'm not supposed to make an alt, buy a house, and share the key with my main. Well, damn, that sucks. Guess I better revoke that key, and maybe even delete the account. Guess that's just to bad for the other few ppl I share that house with.
  Oh, I know. I'll let my friends keep their keys to the alt-house and ask one of them to make an alt, buy a house, and send me a key. That is not giving myself any advantage; so it's technically within the rules, and it's perfectly social; so it's within the apparent spirit of the rules.
  Just sucks for the people who are not into the social aspect, or who don't have many friends, or friends who can afford a house, or don't have trustworthy friends, or have personal trust issues, or...
  I need an eye-rolling smiley...
  Posted 13 months ago by Whym | Permalink
- Because people who choose not to have an alt are somehow being treated unfairly...which is utterly ridiculous, imo.
  There are some things that I choose not to do/use in this game - do you think should I bitch, moan and groan about those so the rules can be changed on how other people, who do use them, play?
  Posted 13 months ago by sgjo | Permalink
- This wouldn't happen if it weren't for the new potion making skills.
  :)
  Posted 13 months ago by Volkov | Permalink
- @Whym: That is not giving myself any advantage; so it's technically within the rules, and it's perfectly social; so it's within the apparent spirit of the rules.
  Ay, there's the rub.
  Posted 13 months ago by Eleanor Rigby | Permalink
- @ Volkov - Actually...alts were being blamed for the housing "shortage" - after blaming the free and/or "inactive" players didn't get the desired results :)
  Posted 13 months ago by sgjo | Permalink
- Perhaps, but then buckets and buckets of new housing were released.
  Posted 13 months ago by larky lion | Permalink
- They're released every-so-often anyway.
  Posted 13 months ago by sgjo | Permalink
- OMG, OMG! What's the big deal, omg?
  Posted 13 months ago by CosmicBitFlip | Permalink
- This issue is what I warned about when the keys first came out.
  I did say the fix should be that keys can only be given to those who are online. That way you cannot send a key to your alt legally.
  — Mal'akh, Primate of Lem, Primus Inter Pares of the Orthodox Church of the Giants of Ur, Hubby of Aranna, Shriner of Mullangi Meda
  Posted 13 months ago by Mal'akh | Permalink
- @LastChance.
  I was pointing more to the complaining because people were buying bog houses,(and there is no shortage on them) and using their alts to grow purple flower for the now needed potions.
  MO' SKILLS, MO' PROBLEMS.
  Posted 13 months ago by Volkov | Permalink

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