Topic

Why does leveling feel so BAD? (A list of all positive and negative things associated with levels)

Good-
Higher max energy (good for bulk crafting of some items)
Higher donation cap
Access to certain level based items (Snowcones among others)
Level based coins give increased amounts

Bad
Icon Tithe amount goes up (more currants)
Energy tick and Mood ticks get more and more severe (it takes more food or more drinks to keep you going)
Teleportation Energy costs go up (it is percentage based)

Please point out any things I missed.

I see almost no incentive in leveling. Optimal play is going to have me run around getting no xp intentionally? Do I want to have low moods at all times? I think there is a slight problem with development if I feel that way.

Do others feel the same way?

Posted 13 months ago by Sajin Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

Previous 1 2
  • As a newbie, I was unaware of any of these pros and cons, but still had the feeling that leveling up wasn't necessary
    Posted 13 months ago by Listo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Do you HAVE to throw money at icons?  What happens if you don't - do they follow you around and mug you when you stop to water the carrots?
    Posted 13 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You do not have to give money at icons. However, it is a disincentive to level.

    So I want to throw money to icons or teleport a lot. I dislike that play style being punished because I leveled. It makes me not want to level.

    Do I have to level? No, or at least really slowly. But that feels like anti design to me.

    Do not get me wrong, I would be fine with the increasing costs if the Benefits column outweighed the Cons column...but it currently does not.
    Posted 13 months ago by Sajin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I find that the advantages do out weight the disadvantages, if only for the larger energy/mood tanks. Means i get that much more at the new day refresh.

    But, no, you don't have to. If you want to spend the effort to not level, don't. You put in the extra effort, you get the pluses. It feels like anti-game design because we've been trained by every game out there that leveling up is always all good and should be desired. Glitch makes it a double edge sword so allows you to change your behavior to get the result you desire.

    Note: All coins are level based.
    Posted 13 months ago by Lord Bacon-o Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i don't like levelling. i love the fact that i don't have to level to enjoy the game. and yet, it looks like a lot of people level anyway! www.glitch.com/leaderboards...

    i don't think there is a balance issue.
    Posted 13 months ago by Lara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Leveling for me is just a side effect of stuff I do in the game.  I can't imagine any one element, level, training level, wealth or the supposed leaderboard rankings (I still have never visited the Leaderboard page and probably never will) being the whole deal.

    The whole deal is being out and about in the world of Ur doing stuff.
    Posted 13 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We need some higher energy foods for higher levels - it seems that anything other than awesome stew or a couple of other dishes are insufficient....
    Posted 13 months ago by White Tiger Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @White Tiger

    just because you have a bigger tank doesn't mean you have to fill it.

    in fact, it will re-fill itself every 4 hours.

    leveling is actually pretty useful. every day you get free energy and whatever you do with it is pure profit.

    i don't pursue leveling, and currently i have a max energy of 1000. that is 1000 free energy every single day, the equivalent of 5 Awesome Stews. it is akin to being handed 1000 currants every 4 hours, so long as i am present in game to claim it.

    there are teleportation and energy ticks, sure, but i can also meditate for up to 1000 energy each day and the meditation amounts go up by level also, so if i'm just standing around waiting or chatting, i'm actually gaining gaining more energy that someone at a lower level would, just by clicking the orb every so often.

    the increased teleportation costs flat out hurt though. even though you get free energy each day to offset the increasing TP costs, it does dilute the benefit of the extra energy significantly.
    Posted 13 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I too see leveling as a by-product of what I do normally. In other words, I don't try and level but I end up leveling through doing other things (e.g., donating to shrines for emblems / icons, completing quests, getting achievements).
    Posted 13 months ago by BarryW Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I actually like leveling, although I suppose I don't go much out of my way to gain extra XP besides collecting XP coins and donating a lot. I like having a higher number attached to my name than other people. It's just an ego thing, which I have a lot of.
    Posted 13 months ago by Effigy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The energy and mood ticks are also percentage based.
    Posted 13 months ago by BlueZed Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Also there are plenty of skills that enable additional ways to get mood, energy and in some cases, favor.

    Meditation, Emblem selections, Icon selections, etc. 

    But play the way that feels best to you, and let your innerGlitch shine!!
    Posted 13 months ago by MeherMan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • it doesn't matter. money doesn't matter. energy doesn't matter. why you guys get so caught up on the costs of things confuses me. everything is 'free' at a certain point. 
    Posted 13 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The energy drain is a bit annoying and could be tuned a bit.

    When it comes to mood I think the higher loss makes some sense in a game design perspective, though... in many games the XP rewards for simple tasks get lower as you level up, but since Glitch doesn't have level based activities I think it makes sense that you have to sip Cosma-politans and meditate once in a while if you want to keep earning XP at maximum rate at higher levels.
    Posted 13 months ago by Ed Cetera Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One of the things I like about Glitch is that you do not have to reach soaring levels.  You can enjoy the game without feeling that you must level up.  There are some things that you can't do until you reach certain levels.  For example, you must be level 12 to so Gwendolyn's Quest.  There may be a few other things too.  I just play and enjoy and I never worry much about leveling though I do love to get XP.  No particular reason that I can think of, I just like doing it, a personal Quest not a necessary one.  There may be more things in the future that require higher levels.
    Posted 13 months ago by Brib Annie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think meditation scales too, just like tp cost, doesn't it? (I'm not really sure but I think I've seen the max increase) So that's a pro if it does.
    Also, I don't see "more severe mood ticks" as being a con necessarily. The only thing mood affects is experience increase, meaning it'll be harder to level as you increase in level (which isn't unexpected) if you decide to ignore your mood.
    But I agree about the larger energy ticks, they're really annoying. They should make food scale, or add better recipes (recipes which would give enough energy to make them partially wasted on glitches with smaller energy tanks).
    Posted 13 months ago by ☆ Magic ☆ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My brother who has played since the beta-phase was talking about this problem. Just the other night he proposed that he didn't want to gain any more experience and levels, primarily because of the increase in teleportation costs which he cited.

    I don't think there's any problems with the way shrine donations work, which the OP seems to be including as part of the problem. As players increase their skills, harvests go up and things like money and donations become far easier. Clearly there is a big difference between gaining skills and gaining levels or xp.

    It might be optimal to reach level 30 and stay there; however impractical, if you really feel that way then there's not much point in continuing to play. The problems you cited simply increase the difficulty for advanced players, which is not an unreasonable game-mechanic. The cons may be allieviated somewhat with new recipes and food that heals additional energy, something which the devs may think of adding to this game eventually.
    Posted 13 months ago by Token☆ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yep. I think it's (slightly) broken and have been trying to think of fixes since I posted, essentially, the same question as you a couple days ago (see that discussion if you're interested, along with ways to help avoid gaining xp -- the most important thing is keeping your mood low).

    People talk about the woohoo! free energy! bonus, but if you are not a crafter or miner, you have pretty much all the energy you need by level 40 or so. I'm level 35 and have very little difficulty with energy. Some days I don't need to eat a thing other than my pig nibblings & cherry pickings. But, my play is exploratory & social, not crafting & mining. I want to earn my currants through an in-game business (delivering flowers & gifts) Which means having an ever increasing pool of energy not only rather unnecessary for my game play but, in fact, a deterrent. As a delivery person, and social player, I teleport a lot. Deliveries take me all over Ur (and sometimes I really do need to move quickly) and each new party means another teleport. Because teleporting costs a fixed percentage of your energy, more energy does not mean more teleports, it means each teleport costs more. And sure, the party fixings help to mitigate this (assuming folks are cooking them and not just snagging them) but as a low level player, getting to a party might cost you a couple of the sandwiches (or tacos or lox or whatever), it might take twice as much for a high level player.

    The idols are a similar story. I like to keep them topped up, mostly so that my friends & visitors can enjoy them (I do not want the mood or xp buffs because that means levelling and, though the energy is nice, I could live without it). But, it hurts... to tithe all my idols right now (9x616=5544), would take more than half of my currants (8410). 

    So I work more in order to be able to play less... but working (whether gathering, crafting, or mining) means earning XP which means leveling which means everything costs more which means I have to work more often which means more XP and more leveling. And, from where I'm standing, it just never seems to balance out. The higher I get, the less I get to play and the more I have to work. I'd say it mimics life, but at least in life there's the hazy dream of retirement to keep you going on the tough days. 

    I understand the argument that it adds complexity/difficulty for high level players, but I disagree. For the miners, gatherers, and crafters out there, there is no real problem. They benefit off the increased energy pool - in fact, the more energy they have, the more they can find, make, and earn. It's only complex for folks who do not find their enjoyment in those activities. We have to find ways to avoid gaining XP. Running around as a sad little glitch (super low mood) is almost essential and, frankly, that sucks! I hate that I've learned to love (and aim for) the angry red frown. But even then, the game throws so much XP at you (occasionally presenting as this awesome woohoo thing, when for some of us, it's really more of a boohoo) that you have no choice but to level.

    But, unfortunately, I have not come up with a proposed fix. At least not one that's relatively simple. Leveling & energy is important for some (most, probably) and so that should not be taken away and the relationship makes sense. And, as wealth becomes easier to achieve by those who find grinding away at the mines (or whatever) enjoyable, there needs to be something to offset that. The idols, then, need to cost more for those who the energy & mood helps (and at a higher level, it's a greater help because it's refilling more mood & xp). So I just sit and grumble about the game, which we tell folks you can't play wrong, is, in fact, telling me that I am playing it wrong.
    Posted 13 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This is just like any other game.  As you play longer, you get more xp and higher level and stuff costs more.

    In any RPG, stuff in the first city is cheap but stuff in the last city is expensive.  It comes with the territory.

    The thing is, by the time you get higher levels, you should have a better idea of how to make money more efficiently.  On top of that, you have a larger pool of energy to spend on gathering/mining and (most likely) higher level skills that speed the process along, as well as higher level crafting skills so you can turn cheap ingredients into expensive auction-able items.

    The way I see it, if you think leveling up is a bad thing, you're doing it wrong.  If 500-1000c a day per idol tithing is killing you, stop tithing or find a new way to make money.  If you're level 40 and you don't know how to make money, you're doing it wrong.

    But the thing about Glitch is everyone is free to play the way they want to.  If the way you play is dodging xp bonuses so you stay lower level, by all means play that way. 
    Personally, I'm looking forward to being level 60.  I like having a large energy pool, and by that time I won't need xp from my idols so I'll only need to tithe if I need a sizable mood or energy bonus mid day.
    Posted 13 months ago by zeroDOTjon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So, you're saying I'm "doing it wrong" because I don't want to level up and yet the game bills itself as a game that isn't centered on leveling but rather on cooperating and exploring and finding your own path and imagining the world. 

    I have imagined myself an explorer/socializer and that makes leveling and XP a punishment -- yet the game throws it at me every chance it gets (and then some).  I am forced to level in order to do the things that uses to show that it's "different" from other MMOs and RPGs (and MMORPGs ;)) and am penalized for that leveling. Or I have to make sure I keep my mood as low as possible to avoid gaining XP.

    Something in there seems wrong and, thus, (to me) slightly broken. Though, like I said, I don't have any easy solutions to this, so it's basically just a bunch of silly griping (which I also hate doing) so I'll just be a little emo glitch afraid of that bright big green smile trying desperately to stay young (and dread the day I turn 40).

    (Also, I wouldn't be complaining if it was just 500-1000 a day for tithing... heck, even 5k wouldn't be so bad. But I'm only at level 35 and, already, it's over 6000. From what I understand, it'll be over 10k when I'm in my 40s. And, yes, I know I don't *have* to tithe or have all the idols, but their nagging really really really grates on me and I want my visitors to be able to enjoy them, esp as I don't use them for much seeing as how mood and xp hurts my gameplay more than helps.)
    Posted 13 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nice try. You're trying to dissuade everyone from leveling so you'll make it to the leader boards before them. Points for creativity, though.
    Posted 13 months ago by Xev Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't try to level, but I don't avoid it either.  I don't get this - avoiding XP because of teleportation costs?   You're too good for the subway?
    Posted 13 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • WalruZ -- you can't take the subway to party spaces. And, yes, I use the subway often, but if I've got a delivery in Callopee or Besara, I often miss the recipient by the time I walk from Mallos Means.
    Posted 13 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Teleportation costs are percenatge based, at Teleportation 5 you are able to teleport 10 times with your given energy pool. Sure it takes more food to refill it, but energy is sooooo easy to get. I can nibble a piggy for 2 energy (AK7) and receive 4-16 meat in return, that's 40-160 energy from one nibble and I can do that twice to each pig. Egg plants give decent energy returns as well if you have Gardening 5. I like starting out with a ton of free energy every game day and the "cons" aren't really that bad.
    Posted 13 months ago by TRB4 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Exactly, TRB4. Energy is relatively easy to get, which is why I don't need a huge pool of it. So, since I'm not doing huge energy intensive activities (such as crafting & mining), I don't have the same need for the huge energy pool that comes from higher levels which is the benefit to balance out the higher TP & tithing costs. So, as a non-miner/crafter sort I get the cost, but no real benefit. Thus, my play style lacks the incentive to level up. It's not a huge issue, but it is, as I said earlier, slightly broken. (whether it's broken enough to need a fix? probably not - though I would like to not feel I'm better off running around with that mopey red face staring back at me ;))
    Posted 13 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I felt that leveling was punishment. I experienced only drawbacks and no conveniences. In collecting my emblems to unlock skill trees I intentionally did it almost all at once to avoid XP leveling via donation.
    Posted 13 months ago by Hydi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The big problem is that losses tend to scale (passive loss, teleportation, butterfly singing), but the only gains that scale are coins.  There really is an active disincentive to level once you're comfortable with your energy pool.
    Posted 13 months ago by Lucille Ball Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't see why everyone is mad... If you're energy pool gets bigger than why is it a problem for the price of the stuff that you need to use energy for goes up. There just trying to keep it proportional.  Besides, lvling is a lot like a nice side affect for me, however I do agree that there should be some foods that should give you more energy   
    Posted 13 months ago by Askarema Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The obvious answer to the "problem" here is to petition the admins to implement an XP toggle, that lets you turn off all XP gain. Unless there's some exploit that relies on staying at a specific level, this should be an easy QOL addition to the game.
    Posted 13 months ago by Sir Parsifal, KOTR Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The problem is conflicted design. There are mechanisms in place that seem to want to push you to level (snowcones, caring about mood, xp rewards for quests etc) and there are mechanisms that punish you for it (see my original post).

    What needs to happen is the design be more focused. There should be more obvious benefits from leveling and not everything should be a punishment. That or remove all the xp "rewards" from the game. Its simple conflicted design.

    I would suggest:

    -A +1 skill held before learning kicks in for every 10 levels gained thus slightly increasing the amount of skills that can be held.

    -Certain recipes that require a higher level to complete. (should probably not be the most efficient but fun unique items instead).

    -Level unlocked quests

    There could be lots more ideas put here that would get rid of the conflicted purpose.
    Posted 13 months ago by Sajin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sajin, where you see a conflict in Glitch design purposes, I see none. You are operating under the assumption that levelling up must necessarily translate to "Moar Good Things, Less Hurty-Hurt", which is true in nearly all role-playing games, sandbox or plot-oriented. However, Glitch has been planned to be different from the beginning in that there should be only a minimum degree of scaffolding as to how a player interacts with the game world - the can do almost whatever they want in almost anywhere at almost any time. Now, the salient word here is "almost": while it is true that the minority of skills, items and quests require a nominal level to access them (Gwendolyn's quest probably has the highest requirement [12] - someone please correct me if I am wrong), they are there either to protect the player or for game balance; sometimes, both reasons apply. Unless, for whatever reason, one wants access to those things (and here one should ask oneself reasonably: "Why does one want them?"), the game at any point never forces one to level up, and thus the player is not obligated to do so. It is as simple as that.

    You are proposing that there should be more "obvious" benefits to levelling up so that "not everything" should be a punishment. See, by virtue of your list in your initial post, not everything that pertains to levelling up punishes a player. On the other hand, your main caveat seems to be that the upkeep of energy and mood gets more difficult due to the percentage ticks (an argument I find flawed for mood: while each decrement does get sharper as one levels up, it is balanced out by the accompanying increased threshold of the mood stages. It really is just a perception issue.) and the rising energy costs teleportation incurs. Here, you unconsciously make a second assumption in that what you see in Glitch now is the near-final version of the game. Obviously, it is not. Glitch, like all new online games, is still a work in progress, and a lot of new features are yet to be implemented, including all those skills and items that make energy and mood upkeep that much easier at higher levels. I even suspect that TS is aware of the relationship between levelling up and incurred energy costs and that is probably one of the reasons why the current levelling is capped to 60. My advice here is that you should just wait and see what TS rolls out in the near future; it has only been six weeks since Glitch came out of Beta after all.

    Furthermore, your suggestions, if implemented, further ties basic game mechanics (in this case, skill learning and quests) to levelling up, and I do not see any point in that. As I stated before, there are instances where a quest or skill needs a level prerequisite out of balance and risk issues (I really do not think a level-2 newbie player can survive Area 42 unprepared). More importantly, your suggestions will inherently restrict how a player should play the game by suggesting a "recommended" path he or she should take. That really is not what Glitch, a game that encourages diversity in playing style, is about at all! There will always be some players who view XP and levels as the holy grail while others chase after achievements, icons or currants, and some are not even bothered by all of of these tangible objectives and instead just want to have a good time with themselves or their friends. You may subscribe to one style, and may suggest ways to improve that style (the aforementioned XP toggle sounds nifty for those who are terrified of experience points, for whatever reason) that does not subtly impede the other ways of playing.

    Honestly, all this cost-benefit analysis on levelling up puzzles and palls on me. Glitch gives levelling up a little twist in that a bed of roses can contain thorns, and the bigger the bed gets, one gets scratched a bit more frequently. It is up to you to decide whether you want to risk it. Indeed, if Glitch is quest or level-oriented, this slightly unusual approach may be counterproductive to its objectives, but it is not, thus there is no conflict. Lord Bacon-o stated it succinctly (and I quote): "It feels like anti-game design because we've been trained by every game out there that leveling up is always all good and should be desired." Instead of wanting what one had expected, maybe it is better to adjust those expectations and adapt resourcefully to a different environment.
    Posted 13 months ago by Wein Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Good points, but I don't necessarily agree that we should just accept that leveling up means you get the vinegar and the stick (in Glitch) instead of the honey and the carrot you'd get in other games.

    If people are disinclined to level up, they are disinclined to do various activities. I doubt that discouraging players from active participation rather than just passively running about and avoiding any XP-granting activities is really what any game designer has in mind.

    Glitch also promotes itself as "play it your way" but there are a lot of not-very-subtle "nags" to encourage you to tithe, for example. I am not actively seeking extra emblems just for that reason: icons are cool-looking and undoubtedly provide some benefit, but I do not need something else in my life whining at me that it wants something.
    Posted 13 months ago by ✰ Lorelei ✰ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Is it me or does anyone else think all the "bad" things associated with leveling in the original post are just sound game design decisions?

    I don't know about anyone else but I'd still like a bit of a challenge at high levels and without percentage-based penalties, there wouldn't be any.
    Posted 13 months ago by Warrender Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This topic has been brought up before.  Various staff members have expressed the idea that the game is easy enough as it is, so making it easier isn't necessary.   In terms of leveling, I have to agree: before the reset, I was at level 57, with all of the skills, and there was absolutely no challenge to staying out of hell or accomplishing anything I wanted to do.
    Posted 13 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To me the biggest disincentive to leveling is the level cap. Once you hit 60 you are done. At level 41 I've now exceeded my beta level which was 40. It's been fun to break my former level and I have loved getting all of the icons. But now that those 2 goals are finished, I am really cooling my heels on leveling. As a subscriber I find the cap on leveling discouraging. I imagine it will feel like it does after you've hit your quoin level for the day only worse. It's hard to envision wanting to play much after that which means my subscriber dollars won't support the game. :( I hope that changes before then. 
    Posted 13 months ago by Riverwalker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • yeah, I have been feeling pretty much as Riverwalker describes. I love the little cheery trumpet fanfare with the happy leveling screen so much that I am a little sadder each time I level now, knowing that I only have so many more times that I can experience this.

    In addition, I've felt like a few of the higher-level skills are much less attractive with the skill cap. I was recently choosing between AK7 and LGT3, and in each skill description, the feature of increased XP for the relevant interactions was the first benefit mentioned. But at that point, I could only read that as "this skill will help you hit the level cap sooner". :(
    Posted 13 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree that since most things scale along with your level that cost energy / mood (teleportation, shrines, icons, etc) or they don't get better with leveling (energy gained from food, etc) that leveling is ineffective. I agree that there should be some bonus for leveling. Perhaps you can't use certain things until you reach a certain level, maybe you can't enter certain areas, or even just that as you get higher in level your skills get better (eg: at level 10, Mining 4 gives you 8 sparkley, at level 20, Mining 4 gives you 10 sparkley, etc)... but there's currently no benefit to leveling as I see it. The 'more free energy / mood' per day effect is almost entirely useless when you're doing intensive activities (eg: making large stacks of high-end food, etc). Getting new quests (which often have merely more XP / mood rewards... which are low, or a currants reward, which is usually tiny) is not a valid reason for me to point to, either.

    There needs to be a legitimate benefit to leveling... more than 'oh look, now I don't need to craft this food in half-batches because I have enough energy to do it in one sitting'
    Posted 13 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • To be clear, I'm not asking for benefits to leveling (I do not see the energy pool as this super awesome benefit that some seem to - energy maintenance is cheep & easy). I would just like a better way to avoid leveling (a no-xp buff from a flower, perhaps?). It frustrates me that the more I level, the more time I have to spend doing things I don't enjoy which leaves me with less time to do the things I do enjoy. And spending my days doing stuff I don't particularly enjoy in order to pay off the nagging idols just mirrors my real life fears a bit too much for my taste.

    If I could avoid leveling up, I would. However, despite actively keeping my mood low (I really hate that I wind up cheering for the red angry face!), avoiding most of the seemingly countless XP coins, and donating as much as possible after the cap, I still managed to go from mid-35 to 36 yesterday (mostly because I was helping folks at a party make food who were being very nice and radiating and whatnot to keep our mood high which is just hard to get upset over even though you know with each blast your smile isn't going anywhere... the jerks ;)). 
    Posted 13 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've never had a problem with anything.
    Posted 13 months ago by Ernest Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmm.  I really love leveling up just for the sake of getting that higher number.  :: shrugs ::
    Posted 13 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It fascinates me to see people reply that they like to level just for the fanfare, or for the higher numbers, etc
    Posted 13 months ago by ✦ SHI∇IΔΠ ✦ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hehe Shivian yeah... not sure why. It's like the same motivation for me that drove me to be a straight-A student, get on the Dean's List in college, graduate with honours, etc.  I really don't know why I get so much satisfaction from it but once I reach 60 I know I shall be one extremely satisfied Glitchian.  *^__^*
    Posted 13 months ago by ♪♥~ Auren ~♥♪ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As I read it then, your main problem with leveling is that Teleportation costs more if you are spending energy.   It sounds like you have a play style that needs lots of TP.  Unfortunately, TP is the one thing inside the game that TS monetizes.  They're not going to relax it, because that would affect their income stream.    

    I think you just have to admit that playing the game the way you do requires you to purchase TP tokens.  At least they're not horribly expensive .   

    I've said before that if TS needs more money out of the game what they should do is sell bags for credits.  I'm surprised they don't seeing as how you can't make them or donate them.  
    Posted 13 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you really don't want to level up, use no-no powder.  You'll only gain a quarter of the XP you normally would, and you'll likely end up in hell more often, which will slow your progress considerably.
    Posted 13 months ago by glum pudding Subscriber! | Permalink
  • WalruZ, no, that's not the issue. The issue is that, unlike a miner and crafter that benefits from a large pool of energy, I have no benefit to gaining XP and leveling up. Yet, in a game that bills itself as not about leveling, it makes it next to impossible to not level - with each new level making it more difficult for me to play the game as I do and more necessary for me to engage in activities that I do not particularly enjoy.

    Let's stop talking about the hypotheticals by making a hypothetical day (ha!). I teleport 4 times: once for a delivery (I hoof it or hop on the subway for others), once to summon someone for an emblem trade, once to go to a party, and once to get home. I also tithe 4 idols which is the number shouting at me to tithe this morning. Now to convert everything to a common unit, let's say that energy costs are .8 currant/energy (based on an awesome stew price of 160)

    Level 35 = 2848 (1888)
    TP costs: 4 * 120 = *.8 = 384
    Idol costs: 4 * 616 = 2464
    (Energy Pool: 1200 * .8 = 960)

    Level 40 = 3600.8 (2438.8)
    TP costs: 4 * 149 = * .8 = 476.8
    Idol costs: 4 * 781 = 3124
    (Energy Pool: 1490 * .8 = 1192)

    Level 50 = 5125.6 (3421.6)
    TP costs: 4 * 213 = 852 * .8 = 681.6
    Idol costs: 4 * 1111 = 4444
    (Energy Pool: 2130 * .8 = 1704)

    Level 60 = 6679.2 (4415.2)
    TP costs: 4 * 286 = 1144 * .8 = 915.2
    Idol costs: 4 * 1441 = 5764
    (Energy Pool: 2860 * .8 = 2264)

    Note: the numbers after the level are the total costs for that level, the numbers in the parentheses are the costs after the free energy recieved at the start of the day (assuming, of course, that you started the day in hell with 0 energy). 

    If you are a crafter or miner, having the larger energy pool to keep you going may be worth the cost to you. You may also be better able to benefit from the energy gains recieved by the idol. However, if you are a player who uses little energy and does not do many sustained energy intense activities (such as crafting, grinding, and mining), each new level hurts. And, yes, I think a system is slightly broken if I feel the best way for me to be a bouncy little social player is to run around as an angry red-faced Glitch. (an unhappy Glitch is a non-xp earning Glitch!)

    I don't mind spending 1900 or 2500, but I'm quite dreading the 4400. I just don't earn many currants a day, so I am going to have to start changing my game play (and/or force my visitors to pay the tithe) in order to afford to live at that level -- something which is inevitable with the way the game throws XP at you even if you do work to keep your mood low and/or live on no-no powder.
    Posted 13 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It's clear that gaining levels is incentivized and the intention of the designers is that the gain of a level is a good thing (thus the kazoo).

    Despite this being a different kind of game, it's not really plausible to suggest that the intention is to punish those who level.  So while there might be plusses and minuses, when you have players actively trying to avoid levelling, something is broken.
    Posted 13 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I must say, I've never thought about any of this.  I just play the way I like to, level up periodically without thinking about it, and find it fairly easy to keep my energy up and my bank account growing.  I'm vaguely aware of the changes as you level up, but I've always just gone with it and never felt there was a problem.  Excuse me if I'm out of line, but it often seems to me that when players contend something in Glitch is "broken" it means that something is not fine-tuned to work optimally with the particulary player's game style.  The "fix" would probably penalize someone else's game style.  Just sayin'.  I might be wrong.
    Posted 13 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Something is broken, by definition, if its use results in the opposite of the intended function.  If a fix were to penalize others, then that would be broken.

    There's no question that gaining XP is supposed to be beneficial.  XP is used to encourage certain behavior and gives value to money.  If it becomes a disincentive, then it's broken.

    The "it doesn't affect me, so it's probably not a big deal" thing is prevalent on the forum, but not useful from a game design standpoint if the intent is to create a flexible system that rewards creativity.
    Posted 13 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sell the idols.  
    Posted 13 months ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Biff:  "There's no question that gaining XP is supposed to be beneficial.  XP is used to encourage certain behavior and gives value to money.  If it becomes a disincentive, then it's broken."

    Okay.  But is it a disincentive to most players?  As I wrote, I don't try to level up.  I don't pay much attention to it.  But I still like it.  For me, Glitch life has gotten easier and easier as I've gotten to higher levels.  At the end of Beta life was really hard as a newb again.  

    I can see the argument that for a certain game style maybe around level 20 is ideal,  But I'm at level 40 and wouldn't want to go back to 20.  I can also see the argument that it takes more food to keep going, but food is so easy to get.  If nothing else, RHK with enough piggies, collectors and a feeder make food a non-issue.  I've got about 500k currants in the bank, and nearly all of it came from selling food to the Cebarkel tool vendor, so it's hard for me to really accept that food is an issue at higher levels.

    It does get harder to keep your mood up.  But then the ONLY penalty for low mood is that your XP gain drops!!  So at higher levels you may have to work harder to gain more XP, but the mood hit doesn't affect game play in other ways.

    So, although I have no way to know for sure, my guess is that for most players XP is a mild incentive, as it is for me, and that it is a disincentive to only a minority who play the game a certain way and take a very analytical view of things.  To me that means it's not broken.
    Posted 13 months ago by Hawkwell Subscriber! | Permalink
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