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Staff Topic

An Experiment: Posting an Internal Design Proposal

I've always been curious about posting a detailed description of some change we are merely considering in order to get advanced feedback on it (and, to ward of some of the "Why didn't you tell us!?!?!" in the case that we actually do implement it).

So, with that in mind, here's an internal design proposal document titled Food Freshness & Quality which I made over the weekend. It's unexpurgated (excepting removal of links to other documents or images that you wouldn't be able to get to) and it was written for an internal audience so some of the terminology might be weird.

To be totally clear: this is just a something we are considering. We may do it and we may not do it. Your feedback is welcome (but we still may do it even if lots of people say they hate it and we still might not do it even if lots of people say they love it). It is one of dozens of specs, some of which are for things that we are in the middle of implementing and some of which we might never do. Like I said, just an experiment!

Posted 17 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • o ooo oo ooo going to read it more carefully .. but my first impressions: cool! Fruit/food to be rotten in several hours, depending how we storage it! Cabinet, cooler/freezer! How realistic! jumping here from exitement!

    keep up the good work!!
    Posted 17 months ago by Atlantis Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My first impression was ok makes sense, but then I started to think as gardening is one of my fave things to do and once again it will be the gardeners who are hardest hit, after all where is the comparable process for miners, their products wont degrade thus whatever effort goes into mining can be hoarded without penalty?

    Again the same applies for those who engineer, blocks, bricks, even the basics such as barnacle talc and fireflies and peat - unless there are plans that fireflies die if you keep them bottled too long, but then just morphing them into blocks or crystals would solve this wouldnt it?

    And wont this mean that food gathering/harvesting/ production just becomes a time consuming chore until you have the luxuary of a fridge? Making the start less fun? As I recall keeping your energy levels up at the start was one of the more problematic parts in the early levels. This will make it a lot harder?

    In many ways this is a clever idea with lots of new possibilities and as long as we dont have to spend so long keeping food fresh and usuable that we have no time to play, to be silly or be creative, or whatever I'll say ok, but I do have some serious doubts thats how it would work out simply because If I already spend a lot of time gardening would I want to spend a heap more trying to ensure my products are saleable when if I choose mining I wont have those worries.

    Sorry to be so negative, that wasnt my intention and maybe I'm just seeing things in a poor light having spent way to much time last test trying to gather a supply of guano to up my garden production and maybe I'd be more convinced its a great idea if theres a hint other trades might have simular obstacles? Tho actually wouldnt want the fun of those trades to get stifled in the way Gardening/food production seems to be.

    I just wonder if maybe we had it too easy, but a lot of the fun of Glitch was that things werent too hard and that led to lots of time to do other things like being social, just a little worried that gardeners will now be forever working first to produce and then to keep fresh their harvested crops.
    Posted 17 months ago by Faereluth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Overall I really like the idea.  The combining effect might be good - however if food is fully rotted combining it with other food should increase the speed of decay.
    Posted 17 months ago by Accy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The more complex and ingenious the game is, the more I like it. This idea of bananas spoiling is intriguing.   It is life imitating art or vice versa.   There will be nay sayers of course but Stoot, YOU ARE THE BOSS... Go for it.
    Posted 17 months ago by napabeth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • interesting you are considering this. I like the fact that you considered different factors for degradation, not just time and time in fridge. The only two downsides for me (which might be why you're considering this!) are I couldn't keep food in inventory for long periods of time and I might have to actually consume what I cook. I'd have to determine for myself.

    Overall I like the idea, unless of course the majority of my friends don't :P
    Posted 17 months ago by bored no more Subscriber! | Permalink
  • With knees shaking and me trying not to hyperventilate I will chime in on this (ya know ya love me, stoot...but ya probably just don't know it, yet :D :D :D )

    It's all sounds pretty cool (especially after I looked up some of those words :P ).
    I definitely love the idea of having a frig for storage (um...can I order a full wall unit to hold all of my stuff? - Maybe you better make that one that covers all 4 walls for me :D :P )
    And I really, really am in love with the idea of the composting.

    But (and I'm not sure if you can answer this just yet)... where it's mentioned about being found only in Ix (and I'm taking it to be talking about the berries), will it be set to where people can't come along and almost annihilate it like they can the trees?

    ETA:  Also...how would it work in the auctions (please don't shoot me hitherto :P )
    Posted 17 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like the idea, but am wondering how auctioning off food at the AH will work. It's got to be workable such that cooking food for the AH is viable, but not to the point where people abuse the AH as "food storage for a fee".

    Will food now rot in gardens if you don't harvest it in time? Shouldn't pickles last forever (or at least about 500 times longer than bananas)?
    Posted 17 months ago by Blitz Subscriber! | Permalink
  • lol, Blitz...looks like I edited mine at the same time you were writing yours :D
    Posted 17 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Like it a lot. Really cool idea. 

    I also really like the idea of a Freezer+Frozen version of foods. 

    EDIT: Deleted "Also, a fixed 'rotting rate' doesn't seem right. Different things should rot at different rates." because Victoria later points out my mistake. It's mentioned that things do not have a fixed rate.
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really like it! The only thing I kinda hate is the name "power berries" - like the concept, but the name rubs me the wrong way. Could be the similarity to "smurfberries" which I think has become somewhat shorthand for something you probably don't want to be evoking in this game... but overall, very cool.

    and thanks for posting this stoot, I always love it when you give us a peek at behind-the-scenes action! :)
    Posted 17 months ago by katlazam Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "create a need for upgraded storage" - buyable with credits? ;)

    Overall I like the idea, it would make the game more interesting and one will have to choose the skills to learn wisely.

    But, but ... can you imagine, how my floor will look like, if the food is going to rot? LOL I will literally stand in it knee high.
    Posted 17 months ago by Jaenelle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow, stoot - first of all, thanks for giving us the opportunity to "chime in" about new ideas - that is MOST COOL - whatever you all decide to do!  As far as the idea goes, I see pros and cons - yes it will certainly add to the complexity of the game and will be able to incorporate other skill sets in food and drink making - that part is good and makes it interesting for sure.  On a personal note though, as a person who is not able to play as much as she would like, I know that a good portion (if not all) of my foodstuffs would be rotten by the time I was able to play again some weeks - I am not always well enough to be at the computer for very long - So, it would definitely make keeping yourself fed a bit more of a challenge - but then, I think that is what you are after - keeping things challenging.  Along with my friend sgjo, I am concerned also about the availability of the powerberries, and hoping that if/when it came to implementing this, that they would be in more than one place - perhaps we could purchase them (no not from the auction where some people will inflate the prices to ridiculous heights), from a grocer or produce vendor, or purchase seeds to grow them, or perhaps they could be created from cherries at a much higher rate?  In any case, those are my thoughts on the ideas - love the ideas of increased storage, and cold storage, etc.  Sounds like your brain goes about a million miles a second!  Why am I not surprised!  :)  Kudos for the all the creativity you guys have!  That is what makes this game like no other!  
    Posted 17 months ago by Hab Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Seconding the name change from Power Berries. But, I am pretty sure that's a tentative name, so I didn't say anything originally.
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What I like: freshness decreasing with time and player skills/experience/mood effecting food quality both add some "depth" or realism to the cooking process, the idea of powerberries sounds great and I specially like the idea of composting spoiled food.

    What I dislike: freshness of food in inventory/storage/fridge decreasing when offline. Why? I don't want to feel obliged to play Glitch in any way. Knowing my virtual food is slowly rotting... planning ahead, putting everything in a fridge... doesn't sound appealing to me. I want to be able to log out and not worry about when I'll have time to play again. I imagine coming back after a few weeks without playing Glitch and finding all my food rotten, not a very warm welcome :(

    <edit> I also like the idea of some food rotting faster than other food.
    Posted 17 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Blitz, Mr. Dawgg, I understand there is no fixed rotting rate:
    "The base rate can be modified by a class property for each kind of food drink (so things like spices can spoil very slowly or not at all, while fruit and vegetables spoil a bit faster than grain or oil)."
    Posted 17 months ago by Victoria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • See, I actually like that it rots while you're offline. I see no reason to slow the rotting process either. It makes it more 'alive.'

    EDIT: I guess I missed that line. My bad. Well good then. 

    EDIT: I sure did. I just saw the chart and assumed. It's right after the chart.
    Posted 17 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like it all very much. I have mentioned several times in global chat that having a fridge/stove in a kitchen in my Glitch house would be very cool. A stove could allow for less energy used per item created. All appliances could require refueling (another reason to have that darn fuelmaker around!) We were also discussing in global during the recent gardening changes how nice it would be to have a composting skill available after soil appreciation -- so excited to see that in the proposal!

    Do have to agree that "power berries" isn't really working for me as a name either.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cristy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You will have a bot who will monitor the frige and the freezer. This will be a learned skill. No need to worry... when your veggies start to rot he will push a button and they will revive as do the plants in our gardens with just one drink of water. 
    Posted 17 months ago by napabeth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lord I hope not...I don't want any bots taking over my farm - it's mine all mine, I tell ya!
    Posted 17 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Definitely like the idea of adding a new dimension here.  Yup, interested to know what happens at auction and with the berries.

    Only one 'but' so far; I am with Hab regarding the offline status of degradation.  I am sure that amongst this, is the idea to keep players coming into the game, but it's a little too much FV to me.  I don't want to have to be tied to coming in just to do something about my food to stop it going off.  The game isn't RL, it is an escape from it!

    I am looking forward to live for so many reasons, but one is that the current tests mean RL is often put on hold and I am looking forward to being able to play in my own time (whatever that may be) rather than cram (apart from to begin with maybe).  However, I would prefer not to have to think about what is happening to my food when I am getting my RL shop, working, sleeping (I do sometimes), on holiday (some hopes)  having an away day or 2 etc etc.  Think this should have an offline 0 deg.  I fell foul of this in FV until I pulled myself away from it and I see what effect it has on people who still play it; it's not fun; it becomes a real bind and it's one big reason why I gave up FV!

    Other than that, I like it;)  Thanks for sharing Stoot ;-)
    Posted 17 months ago by ♥joby♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What an interesting thread. I think this will give food far more value than it has now and is a good move overall..hey I might even get to see the floor of my house again! Just a few thoughts..

    1) Re: the name Power Berries...if Humbaba can have his own drinks, maybe another giant can own the berries..so something like Tiiberries maybe?

    2) The idea of food going rotten is great - but I'd love to see the rotten food have a use as well (other than fertiliser), giving both ends of the spectrum some value..maybe as a special animal feed, or a way to create a stinky compost heap in your garden where weird and wonderful things might grow?! (mushrooms!!)

    3) Love the fridge idea - again a use for frozen food would be good, maybe a range of strangely flavoured ice lollies?

    4) If we need a fridge at home, can we have a new storage item - a coolbag - to keep food cool while roaming around?

    5) I assume the state of the food would be shown on any auctions?

    6) Are the Composting skills and  Discombobulatory Recycling skills also just a thought - or are they definitely on their way?

    Thanks so much for the chance to talk about this - brilliant move!
    Posted 17 months ago by Morticia Addams Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 Hab and Joby...That's one thing I've wondered about when it goes live, as well...what'll happen to your critters and trees (never had to worry about the gardens til this last test) and now possibly foodstuffeths.
    Could there maybe be a hold/pause button to use for your property? (and would only work for your property)
    Posted 17 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you, Stoot, for an interesting glimpse into the design process and for welcoming our feedback - it's very much appreciated!

    My immediate impression is that I'm not so keen on this idea. For me, gauging energy needs and determining which various foods/meals are most efficient to eat /make at a given moment is an involved process. *blush*  Personally, I'm not sure I would enjoy putting more thought/effort into it, and wonder if it might somehow detract from enjoying/exploring other aspects of the game.   
    Posted 17 months ago by Christine Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love that idea as it is written and have nothing to add.
    Posted 17 months ago by Iskie Bae Subscriber! | Permalink
  • superb and exciting ideas, pls introduce watermelon too would be fantastic :)
    Posted 17 months ago by babi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 1) Fine idea,to put out a new thought/concept/idea,and find out what players think of it before investing time and money into something players don't want.

    2) in regards to the idea presented:

    I find the thought of returning to rotten food and dead gardens a real turn-off.

    Perhaps we could be given a choice at the time of signing out:
    either put everything on 'Hold',or have everything 'Progress'.

    If you choose 'Hold',everything stays exactly as it was when you left,so if you planted seeds,they'll still be seeds when you get back (i.e. not ready-2-pick crops!);
    choosing 'Progress' means everything grows,matures,and becomes ready for use,but it also ages and wilts/rots/dies,if you fail to return in time.
    Posted 17 months ago by ~Scilly~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A few more thoughts - how would spoilage affect foodstuffs sent in the mail? Would they arrive at a "slightly less than normal" score/rate? How about if they are left in the mailbox for too long? Say if you don't check your mail for a week, will you find rotten bananas?

    As for the not liking the spoilage while offline, I agreed initially with the sentiment that they shouldn't spoil, but then I remembered that the fridges are an option for long-term storage. We'd just have to make sure that we went home and unpacked everything into the appropriate storage. If we left eggs out on the counter or in a bag they'd spoil, wouldn't they? ;-)

    Maybe certain items would do better in the cabinet - think spices in a cool, dry place-  while meat and eggs definitely require refrigeration or deep freeze. A freezer could keep your items even longer but require time to thaw before use/consumption.
    Posted 17 months ago by Cristy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Whole idea is interesting and pretty detailed, but I would hate to see rotting food in the Glitch.

    That’s why I am not playing all those Farmville games  - I would like to play when I want, not when my animals and crops are going to die or when my food is going to rot.

    And I love to find forgotten “treasures” in my numerous disorganized bags -  and I mean pleasant surprises, not some decomposing fruit or moldy stew.
    Posted 17 months ago by nekomaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And thanks for sharing, I really appreciate this.:)
    Posted 17 months ago by nekomaki Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I like the idea of aging process for all things that can be created in Glitch. If you do not look for trees, animals, plants - they die. Food to rot, even streets to go into ruins and close if noyone comes by.

    As sgjo i really dislike idea of automated bots who will do some stuff for you. If you play ok your stuff is nice and tide else all fell into ruins as in RL. 

    As for refrigerators it is good food and supplies to be preserved there, but as in RL they have fixed amount of time to stay there and start to get worse. Ofc this period is alot bigger and aging is slower. Fuel cells to power them is good. Even fuel cell to power house is good idea.

    Food aging adds another aspects - we can have meals, dried or dehidrated foods etc etc etc world around us can provide alot ideas. Even stuff people before us used can be a good source. 

    Fridges - modern powered with fuel cells, old ones kept cool with ice...

    Power berries - this sounds me like this acai stuff advertised all around. Name could be better for me. Maybe something like yummy, fluffy, screaming, crunchy berries. Any funny name will do. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Lilla My Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hmmm, perhaps a new skill could be preserving/pickling/putting stuff in tins.
    Posted 17 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Very cool, but...

    a) Produce vendors should disappear, or rise their prices. If not, I would just buy a few things to cook and eat every time I log in, and not bother about gardening or storing.

    b) Mining should have some similar effect. Ore could rot too, or desintegrate, or whatever (ater all, this is a surreal game, isn't it?).

    Without a and b, it would be tempting to reduce gameplay to: 1) Mine something; 2) Sell it to produce vendor; 3) Buy food. Repeat.

    Apart from that, I really like your experiment, Stewart, and would love to see more of this.
    Posted 17 months ago by Ximenez Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Perfectly right for mining materials. Even tools can age and reduce their durability in time.

    I will love to see whole Glitch economy runned by players. From base materials, to most complicated stuff.
    Posted 17 months ago by Lilla My Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Seems a rotten idea to me, too much like RL, next idea will be banks on the streets, perish the thought.
    Posted 17 months ago by Phochai Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I love the idea, i am a big hoarder my cabinet is full of big bags and they are all full of various items
    that i collect ( i am so addicted to harvesting) and when i turn allspice into fruit i make so much as i love cooking in the game,
    so the idea of food rotting would put me off harvesting till i need to, and i would love that,
    also the thought of a fridge makes me so happy  ROLL ON, lets have it please.
    Posted 17 months ago by gill288 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • ooo just a though would food you have made go rotton too I hope not
    they last much longer in RL than fruit.
    Posted 17 months ago by gill288 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Lovin' the behind the scene glimpse!!!

    Part of me agrees with the objection to stuff degrading while I'm offline...  The idea that I HAVE to play or check in daily to keep my stuff in order is not appealing at all.  BUT...  in the fridge, I have a full month of storage and, seriously, am I gonna stay away for a month?  I suppose a dramatic, RL event could cause that... and coming back to a house full of rot would certainly be a sad welcome back...   So I guess I'm on the fence with this one.

    It would certainly change my gameplay and I would need a very big fridge!!  I have quite a few bags of produce that would have been long gone by now!

    I have to say, I rather like the idea of a dramatic change right before going live.  We're (beta players) already going to have a huge advantage over new players and throwing a monkey wrench into the works will help slow us up a bit, which seems only fair.

    Thanks for the peek, stoot!  Would love to see more!! :)
    Posted 17 months ago by Pirate Apples Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I keep hearing the words real life...for me a game should be just that~a game.
    How many real life notions can you add,before a game becomes too much like real life,
    and thus looses its magic,and with it the reason for playing,which IMO
    is to get some rest/relaxation from real life?!
    Posted 17 months ago by ~Scilly~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 SG5 ;-) ^_^
    Posted 17 months ago by ♥joby♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I LOVE THIS IDEA! It would create much deeper gameplay experience and make it into much more of a game and less comparable to such boring grinding fb "games" like farmville etc.
    Posted 17 months ago by Veqtor Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I really hope this is one of those things that you choose not to use even if a lot of people say they love it. (Me just being selfish...I know)  I hate the idea of getting seeds from pigs and guano from batterflies and planting, watering, and harvesting my garden then making the food only to have it get rotten if I don't use it or sell it fast enough.  It just takes some of the fun away when you have to calculate every little thing you do.
    Posted 17 months ago by Kyinda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The doc is currently inaccessible to me, but in principle it would seem to make cooking skills (most of which I went for right away, because they seemed the most interesting) even less useful.

    Right now, there are many recipes, but only very few are ever used.  Unlike alchemy, there's a huge variety of stuff you need to keep around to cook various dishes, and it all takes up an awful lot of space if you want to be prepared to cook many dishes.

    This would mean that before deciding to make any given dish, you'd always have to go to do a lot of shopping.  That makes exploring the different recipes even less appealing.

    And, not to jump on the bandwagon, but this seems to abuse cooks and farmers disproportionately to the miners, who in my opinion have a far less interesting pastime (ie, beat on rocks until they give up the goods, which are immediately donated/sold).

    And I'd also agree that the game is already addictive enough.  I know I've altered my real-life behavior to make sure I was near a computer when it's time to learn a new skill.  Worrying about my rotting virtual fruit while I'm in a meeting doesn't sound fun.

    Of course, it all depends on how long it takes stuff to decay.  And maybe if some things decayed into more useful items (which I imagine was discussed), it would take some of the edge off.

    But when you look at what it takes to make a simple dish that provides even weak energy, there's quite enough work involved already.

    I think a lot of the people who think this is a great idea might have forgotten how difficult it is to get started when you don't know what's going on or how to get XP.  One of the things I immediately liked about Glitch was that it seemed pretty hard to do the wrong thing.  I can only imagine how PO'd I'd be if I'd just spent my last currant on a cooking tool only to find that all my ingredients were spoilt.

    Time for bananabread, I guess.  Lots and lots of it.
    Posted 17 months ago by Biff Beefbat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think it will make it a lot harder and confusing for starting out players.  It seems like I spend most of the time getting resources for energy/mood and now it will rot.  A little harsh for low-level weekend only players.  I'm thinking it might be a turnoff for new players who can't afford a house let alone a frig to put in it.  Make it related to level maybe?
    Posted 17 months ago by Cindy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Don't like the idea... I play for fun.. not to get on 24/7 maintaining the crops and fruits..
    I would be happy with the idea if the fruits wouldn't degrade when you go offline.
    well those are my 2 cents.
    Posted 17 months ago by Aero Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Whole idea got pros and cons things have to be pretty balanced in easy to maintain, fun for every player no matter beta or just started. If things get too pro we will loose new players which will be a waste. If things get too serious we will loose fun...

    Hmmz in any way we need to put all skills in connection. Right now alot skills have little or no real purpose. 
    Posted 17 months ago by Lilla My Subscriber! | Permalink
  • OK I tried really hard to read the detail but  I have a splitting headache right now... :) It does seem awfully complicated but I suppose as players we wouldn't need to know that level of detail...but as I understand it food over time will rot and give less benefits.

    First question - what the 'eck are powerberries and how would we get hold of them? :) Sounds awfully like smurfberry to me :)

    Initial reaction: at the moment cooking takes up a lot of energy and resources, some have said it's not really worth it for what you get. I admit I haven't analysed it in detail and do cook a lot. But if you were to spend that energy cooking and then lose the benefits on stuff you didn't consume straight away, would be rather off-putting. Not really sure about this, some other things have been recently introduced making the game 'harder' - seems like a very complex way of doing the same thing! Probably don't have enough understanding of it as yet to say yes or no out and out, but alarm bells are ringing!

    EDIT: after about 326 responses to the post, most of which I haven't read!! Someone mentioned about this could be a way to introduce more glitchy fun and Stoot said the emphasis would be on more interesting play. If this is the case, and we are to have fridges, well, go for it then, if it's not about  irritating hard work for the sake of it. But please do something to ease things for new players as I remember starting here without this and it was gruelling. [Pun maybe intended.]
    Posted 17 months ago by Violet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Violet, very good point re the energy involved in cooking v only then to having food degrade!  As well as degraded food giving you less energy!  Seems the only way to compensate for that element would be to reduce the energy required to make it in the 1st place and boy, yes, this makes it even more complex!  Interesting, but complex,. maybe a little too involved!
    Posted 17 months ago by ♥joby♥ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Actually I would find this quite comparable to the withering effect that FarmVille uses to force players to come into game at set intervals to avoid losing everything. It would lessen the appeal of the game to me.
    Posted 17 months ago by Leithwyn Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you for sharing with us Stoot, and whilst I would like a fridge/freezer/pantry in my kitchen, I play because I 'Want' to play, not because something in a game dictates that I 'need' to play or my game will suffer. I gave up FarmVille, FrontierVille in part for those reasons, the other one being the insistent need to beg friends for items. 
    If I have a fridge/ freezer in my house to extend the lifespan of food it would balance it out some, but what about the food I need to carry to sustain myself? What happens when I go on vacation? I want food/drinks/milk in my freezer when I come back!
    To be honest gardening and cooking are seeming so much like a chore in this scenario I doubt I would bother with either, and there goes a substantial part of the game play. 

    Please remember this is a game, not real life..I have enough hassles in real life - I play games to escape reality! So far Glitch has been an awesome game, full of idiosyncrasies and fun stuff, this is sounding too much like the Sims!
    Posted 17 months ago by Teena Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hm.  I appreciate the thought and work that goes into ideas like these, but I have to say I am not too keen on this.  I'm less on the, "Wow - richer gameplay!" side of the scale and more on the, "This seems more like work than play" side.  
    Posted 17 months ago by jasbo Subscriber! | Permalink
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