Topic

People's behavior and the (soon to come?) community guidelines [Beer...]

Staff did mention in another topic that community guidelines are forthcoming.  Please bring them into the game sooner than later, please.

Yesterday, I accidentally hit the max to buy beer (I meant to buy 3) so that i could make seasoned beans for some patches I was making for someone who needed to hoe.  So, I think that was 999 beers I ended up buying by mistake.  I thought it was 9999 at first in my panic, but overnight I think it was just 999.  Either way, my bags filled up with unintended beers (some hundreds of them filling every slot I had) and I was, well, feh.

But there was a party, so I just decided to suck it up and bring the 900 or so beers to the party.  The party was in a villa and the house itself was full o crap, so I set the beers out in a line to the door of the house in the public villa area.  Now, I've attended a lot of parties, some in public streets.  We all set a ton of crap out, people come along and take what they like in small quantities.   Everyone shares, yay, party.

It was not bound to last, right?!  I'm the first to say that if it's on a public street, it's fair game for another player.  I've not been an advocate of drop/lock for anything but machines.  But last night, I really got upset by what happened with the beers.

A low level player came along, entered the villa (since the party was being talked up in global), and took as many beers as they could carry, running off with them.  A quick check of their profile at that time showed they got the money bags magoo badge (so, they sold the beer at the nearest vendor)... then they returned to get the rest of the beer.  We are talking hundreds of beers.  We were speaking to the player in local chat with no response from them and they were busy refilling and running away.  We chased them.  I opened a local IM to them, politely stating why we wanted the beer back (so, being reasonable) while using hairball to catch up to them as they went from street to street to evade us.  Others were asking staff to intervene, which did happen.

Staff got the beers back from the player (and the player got another badge for philanthropy), returned them to me, and the player showed up not very remorseful at all while issuing what may have been a mandated apology.  In fact, if anything they seemed amused by the whole thing and waited to enter the party.

So, whatever, it worked out, but I have some concerns.

First, I am not at all happy that one player could just snarf up everything meant to be shared by everyone at a party.  Yes, it was in a public area and I know better.... but parties generally work out without one person snarfing everything up.  I'm *really* sick of the selfish behavior evident in recent tests (hoarding, price gouging, market manipulation, herb garden selfishness) and I see no way for a player to counter it without having to run crying to staff.  

I could not get the player to talk to me (he claims he didn't see the messages) and he could have blocked me anyway.  Now that we get messages saying what street a player has left to visit, we can follow them... but then we can just... splank them?  I tried and was fumbling around too much while in pursuit.  But consider that griefing someone back is also anti-social.  So, our only resource when we encounter a jerk is to talk to staff.

I was, frankly, surprised that staff intervened to give me back the beer.  Especially since staff did not talk to me about the 'theft' of my items but relied on other people's testimony solely.

Staff did not intervene when those blockmakers got 'stolen' - I'm using quotes because since the game allows it, it's difficult to call it theft.  At what point does behavior cross the line?  We don't know.

If the problem was that this player picked up things meant to be shared by all, was it that they picked up all of them?  What if it had been half of them?  I only got half back because they converted the rest to currants.  What if they just picked up 10 of them, but I got bent of shape about it (I wouldn't, but some have).  We have no boundaries except for what staff decides is ok/not ok nor do we have anyway to handle problems ourselves other than to suck it up and take the loss, turn into jerks ourselves, stop playing, or ask staff to intervene.  And staff decisions may change depending on who is working.  

And staff intervention may turn into a game in and of itself because the 'thief' here really liked the interrogation room and wanted to go back to it!

So.  Yea, I will probably never put anything out in a public area again, and I'm pretty much done contributing to parties since I've seen an escalation in the amount of things a given player picks up at them.  There is more selfish play entering the game (whoopie - we all get to choose how to play!) and it really got to me last night, especially since the player was not really contrite at all.  It really seemed they only apologized because they were asked to do so and since they wanted to attend the party.

But I am more concerned that we just don't have guidelines for community play at all.  It leaves the door open for varying responses from staff based on who is on duty at the time.  It also leaves the door open for players to call foul on anything and everything - I dropped a bag at a shrine and someone swooped it up - OK or not OK?  Someone mined my rock - OK or not OK?  I waited 3 hours for this herb which someone came along and swiped - OK or not OK?  I left 900 beers at a party and someone grabbed all of them, knowing that what they were doing was wrong because they actively tried to elude us - OK or not OK?

We've heard staff say that some will be jerks, deal with it, but we also see staff intervene to return a few hundred beers that were actually left in a public area. 

So, I'm frustrated, confused and discouraged. Thoughts? 

Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • people can be frustrating, confusing, and discouraging, is my first thought.

    i've never played an MMO before, so i don't know if this is normal, but i'm guessing it is: individuals will play the game in different ways, with different ethics, and each individual will be able to point a finger at another individual's way of playing. 

    here's one way to look at it: i walked onto the street and saw beer on the ground. i don't know who they belong to, i may or may not be reading chat. i might be multitasking while i play glitch, or multitasking in the game (chatting with someone else, trying to achieve something), or i might not really care. i see beer. i want beer for something i'm working on or i want to make money. i take the beer. i sell the beer. wooo cool, that worked for me, so i'm gonna do it again! internal game flak isn't going to stop me from doing it again, as it was successful for my game strategy. i may never have read the forums, i may never have read global chat, i may not care. (sidenote: it took me 2 or 3 tests to read global chat and to find the forums.)

    what would community guidelines change in this situation? hypothetical glitch could only pick up certain amounts of the beer? hypothetical glitch could only sell certain amounts of the beer? if you asked hypothetical glitch nicely enough she would have to give the beer back? you've reached your max on picking stuff up off the ground? or she would get the boot? or the splank? i think the best community guidelines are going to have to be "play nice" and "help each other out" and "leave your valuables at home" and simple adages like that.

    i guess glitch is, in all it's fantasy, played by very real people, who, in varying degrees of meanness to lala-landness to newbie-ness, are going to be frustrating, confusing, and discouraging. it's part of the beauty and the pity.
    Posted 18 months ago by greenkozi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Because without guidelines, we have arbitrary decisions.  Staff did intervene to return the beer that was in the public area.  But prior to this, staff did not intervene to return the blockmakers that two players had taken away from them.  The blockmakers were each worth more money than the beer.  I don't think arbitrary decisions are good long term for anyone, staff or players.

    Note that despite that I was frustrated and sad as hell that this player could take all the beer meant for everyone, I'm not arguing for drop/lock and am even acknowledging that the beer was in a public area, free to be taken.  

    I'm arguing instead for the greater good of the game - let us know what the line is. Define griefing for us.  This act was apparently defined as griefing, but other, similar, thefts have been chalked up to 'oh well, people can be jerks.'

    This particular player knew that what they were doing was not cool, because they admitted they were trying to outrun not only us but staff, too.  Sure, maybe another player would have just thought, "oh, i need beer, cool," but perhaps would have stopped when people started asking them to stop.

    I almost don't care where the line is.  If staff decides that the line is that anyone can pick up anything in a public area, regardless of how many or what, then so be it.  If they decide that it is griefing to knowingly interfere with someone's party by taking everything meant for everyone, fine, so be it.  If they decide that players can 'punish' other players, then give us those tools or leave us free to incite witchhunts. If they decide that retribution is bad, then clearly state so.  My point is, there needs to be a line and there needs to be a line that is not just 'play nice'.
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • yes. where is that line? you have brought up another great and important topic. sorry you had to experience it. i agree and support you 100%. i hope other people post some great solution ideas here. just as we have opportunity for great things, here is the other side of taking advantage of opportunity. where is that line? 

    and if there are to be no rules, it's not fair that my resources for defense are #4 key for mad face, splanking or the dreaded jumping up and down. and don't tell me about social outcasting when the membership population numbers will negate any real negative effect.  what about complaint buttons, staff could give glitch time outs or better yet - permits to carry little glitch tasers !!!  so if there are to be no boundaries or rules, then we can make the citizens for good behavior group. or the glitch vigilante group! and reign down terror on their bad glitch heads.
    Posted 18 months ago by coolbettycakes Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Live and learn and may all other Glitchers be aware and  read this thread. 
    Posted 18 months ago by napabeth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Zee's situation made us all angry - we witnessed the player just swoop all beers from all floors in the villa, without responding to our pleas. It's bound to happen, and I know developers cannot simply 'return' every item stolen from a public place.

    But where does the limit lie on that ^ ? Items over a certain amount of currants? Number of items? :/
    Posted 18 months ago by Hburger Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have read several accounts of events like these and once again I am going to be a devil's advocate.

    Let's make the analogy to real life in order to give it some light.

    If you have a pile of 'beer' sitting in your home and someone comes into your living room, loads up a cooler and walks out the door its a very different scenario then having a pile of 'beer' sitting on the sidewalk at the end of your block while you are hanging out in the street with a bunch of your friends.

    In the first case, if someone walked into my house and took my beer/whatever, i would chase their arse down and calling the po-po to intervene.
    In the second case, if i called the po-po they would tell me i shouldn't leave my stuff out in the street. (and much like your scenario, me and my friends probably would chase their arse down)

    I see it this way. When i go to a public party and I want to contribute, I only drop in the area what i am comfortable with giving away. If i don't want someone to take an entire stack of drinks, then I am not going to put them all out. I might put out a few, and when those are gone, perhaps throw out a few more. Rinse, repeat. It's about maintaining a mutual respect. I am also cynical and figure given the opportunity to take advantage of me, who is more to blame? -- myself for allowing it to happen or the person who did so because I left the door open for them? Should I be really surprised when the homeless person with a few quoins to their name grabs my beer to pawn because they saw literally hundreds of them sitting around on the ground?

    If i leave the front door open to my home all day should I be surprised when I return to find everything gone? No, because I was the fool that pretty much mounted the neon sign above my door that says 'FREE!'. (Not implying that you are a fool, don't take that statement wrong, please)

    I do not think there should EVER be a community policy that in any way stipulates not being able to pick up items that have been dropped into a public zone. It just add way too many headaches for the Staff and turns them into babysitters. I am also not supportive at all about the whole concept of witch-hunts or retribution either. It's far too easy to say 'so and so stole my stuff' but it's far easier not to drop it onto a public area if you aren't willing to part with it in the first place.

    If you give Glitchers retribution tools then it turns into a whole other headaches - and will inevitably turn into situations with people getting upset because other players hog-tied piggies out of public areas (quest or not), harvested a community garden patch the other person wanted or maybe kept frequenting the same mining nodes that other players want as well.

    TL;DR : If it's a public area, don't drop it unless you can afford to. Giving players retribution tools are not in the spirit of the game.
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was witness to the griefers attack at cupcakes herbpocalypse, it was so sad to see all the hard work stripped, and tho efforts were ongoing I think much was lost in that the beer trail to the party door did not get replaced and that was totally understandable. I know well that sadly people will take advantage, at one party I attended I was happily laying out food I had made only to see someone following behind collecting it all and I mean all of it, when challenged they ran off but came back to take the remainder as the party got underway. :(

    So we need suggestions to make things better so here is mine I'd like to suggest party permits.

    If we could apply for a permit that would effectively rule out people being able to take dropped items from a set place, this could be any (or multiples of)  a street, a housing block in named street, a named home in named block, for a set period of time for say no more than 1 glitch day, this would allow party organisers to set up. The permit could cover a group of organisers so they be exempt from the pick up ban, as they might need to move stuff around.

     Anyone who dropped something in the area covered by a party permit when they didnt mean to could ask one of the organisers to retrieve for them, this would cover for accidental item loss. Or it might be possible to make it so that if you drop items in a party zone you can still retrieve them?

    The permit would also need a deactivate/destroy function so that when party time arrived the ban to take dropped items could be removed allowing the party to go ahead.

    A designated party zone could be marked with banners, flags, ballons or those nifty bug boards we saw during the last test- obviously with something more appropriate than know bug on them lol.

    Ok still thinking on this  - may add
    Posted 18 months ago by Faereluth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • zee -- I completely understand your frustration and it's sad to me that courtesy is not common. The staff intervention is curious to me as well when other situations of people walking off with other more major items like pieces of blockmakers were possibly not treated similarly.

    Regardless of what is on the ground or floor during a public celebration, it is clearly part of the celebration. It's not like it was on the ground in the forest somewhere that was abandoned. The thought that someone would think it was okay to pick up items to fill up their bags, sell and then come back and try to do the same again is mind-boggling to me. It's so obviously wrong that I can't fathom someone not realizing it was not the right thing to do.
    Posted 18 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  •  ^  I second that.
    Posted 18 months ago by Yaya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Been waiting for the other shoe to drop and it looks like a big ol' steeltoe boot.

    Is there any way to mandate niceness externally? Churches have tried for centuries with mixed results. The utopia of alpha/beta Ur is being sullied by greedy little punks and the nature of the game is changing before our eyes.

    Do we need to create our own in-game security programs? How can we effectively demonstrate that by playing nicely, we all win together? Should there be some sort of peer-generated privilege granting... and revoking... mechanisms (like AH feedback)? Will we be powerless against mean-spirited players like this? Will we just have to learn to be wary of those we don't know well? Do we just chalk up getting ripped off at auction as similar to a Juju attack... a random nastiness we sometimes can't avoid?

    I have no answers, but I'm certain that these questions have been hashed out in detail by the developers, and as someone who has invested a considerable amount of time in their game (not to mention a few dollars), I'd be very interested in hearing some of the results of those discussions.

    Maybe I'm just a little too Pollyanna for my own good... but I'd really like to try to find a way to keep Glitch as cooperative and joyful as it's been so far.
    Posted 18 months ago by Lilith Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Uh, I meant what Jackie Paper said.
    Posted 18 months ago by Yaya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'd really like to see some of these guys banned, but I can't see that happening, not in a beta. If we kicked them all out now then we wouldn't be able to handle all the griefers that come when the game is finished.

    I'm a bit iffy on a policy that says how much you can or can't pick up stuff, but I've nothing against being able to block people. With that block not letting them enter your house, not letting them message you (including mail with guano attached), and not even letting their chats shows up.

    Splanking is fun but there should be a limit on how often it's done (if there isn't already). Sure, someone can splank someone to death for robbing the entire herb garden, but it can go the other way. A group dedicated to splanking random bystanders to death, you see what I mean?

    Something has to be done about blocking and making it more effective. Also that guy's badges need to be stripped.
    Posted 18 months ago by Liridona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Few people throw open house parties these days. Wanna know why? Strangers, thats why.

    The mechanism is already there: dont invite ANYONE to your house. Be selective.
    Posted 18 months ago by Yaya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Lilith -- In all the games I have every played online, there has been no real way to enforce "niceness" or cooperative play. I honestly don't think there should be.

    There is always going to be a bit of "let the buyer beware", and I think there should be. There are times when you wish people would just be civil and decent, but you can't really mandate it.

    The lessons for me have been that I won't let people into my Glitch home unless I know them and can trust them. Simply because I know I wouldn't steal from others, I can't be sure others will behave in kind unless I feel like I know them well enough. I also don't want to enter someone else's home unless I feel like I know them well enough that they trust me. And I don't wander about someone's house unless I ask or they are with me. It's a respect thing, I suppose.

    We all play differently, and like in the physical world, the virtual one will have asshats, dooshers and tools. It's time for all of us to realize what we're comfortable with, set our expectations accordingly and guard against the inevitable influx of others into the world who will have their own style of game play that may clash with ours.

    ETA - @yaya -- there needs to be a way to have more refined granting and revoking of privileges for entering a domicile.
    Posted 18 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Just one more note because someone spoke of banning.

    I heavily disagree. In terms of the game play environment, our actions form the worlds inside of these Giants thoughts. I daresay these players might just be elements of negativity. These things tend to take on lives on their own. In much larger gaming environments that I have found myself finding a lot of similarities on Glitch, such as Eve Online, individuals like these are an expected addition to the game play experience. Think of them as sentinent JuJus.

    Of course in EO, you can blast them into the Cosmos but i don't think we can expect a Small Arms I or Machine Gunning II skill anytime in the future. I would be happy to have a Slingshotting I skill where i can use my berries as ammunition however. That's about as far as i would ever consider retribution going. :)
    Posted 18 months ago by Jackie Paper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Jackie, I appreciate the devil's response (I do it often) and largely agree with you in regards to stuff on a public street.

    But do you think it was right for staff to have taken back the beer from the griefer and given back the beer to me?  

    Because that is not a 'version' of what happened: it was exactly what happened (it was my beer, the beer was given directly back to me by staff).

    Yet in other instances, staff has not intervened to give back items taken in public places by another player.

    I brought this up not to elicit sympathy/scorn for my leaving 900 beers in a public area, but to get some standards in place, because random staff intervention is not a good long term solution.

    While I was thrilled that the beers were returned, it really highlighted for me the helplessness we have at the hand of griefers and that the help we get is subject to the whim of which staffer is around.  I enjoyed the beer, but I thought about so-and-so and so-and-so, who were out their machine blocks with no assistance from staff.

    I do know that a lot of the time, we leave this stuff out as decoration: oranges, gems, crystals, firefly jars have all been laid out as decor, and so was the beer (it more or less pointed out the path to the party inside the villa).  So, on a side note, perhaps we need some sticky party items like banners and flags and other doo dahs (notice that the Bug signs the devs brought were sticky - no one could pick them up).  Then, for parties, we could have our decor and the food/drinks could be a free for all, with some maybe taking more than they need but balanced naturally with those giving freely.  Or, perhaps Faereluth has the better party suggestion.

    But that still doesn't negate that griefers get to grief, we get to watch, and -- depending on which staffer is around -- the griefer either has free reign or gets taken to the interrogation room.

    On a more personal note, I don't have sympathy for this player.  As many know, I have bought homes for many players, spent energy and currants to help out players, and generally give away stuff when a newer player seems confused/lost/asks for help.   I have defended the poor actions of players who genuinely did not seem to know any better.  This player seemed to enjoy the chase - they came back to do it all over again.  They wanted back into the interrogation room because it was cool. They ran away and ignored messages.  They knowingly tried to 'outrun a mod'.  Wow. Think on that for a second: knowingly tried to outrun a mod (they told me this).
    Posted 18 months ago by zeeberk Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I wasn't there during zeeberk's situation, and it sounds absolutely terrible ): I'm really sorry that it happened. And quite shocked, to be honest.

    Still, I don't think there should be a limit on amount, when it comes to 'thefts' such as this. I think there's more of an issue when the intention is to steal. Like in this beer scenario, the player knew they were doing something wrong. It's the same with the blockmakers for me. If it's obvious enough that an item is meant for everyone to use, it's wrong to take it. Perhaps a time out would work here? Or some form of community service in the game, or a fine? If the player does something wrong intentionally, there should be consequences! I can't think of anything right now, but it is getting quite late where I am, so please bear with me!

    I think warnings should be implemented in the game for the littler stuff. There are a lot of issues with rudeness with newer players that don't need a real punishment, and honestly, it's easy to make a mistake simply by not paying enough attention to your character's surroundings. Most of these could be sorted out with a quick IM, from anyone, but maybe a warning could be given in more extreme cases?

    And a number of warnings could result in a time out.
    Posted 18 months ago by Xacau Feera Blin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • We've had a generally positive group of people so far, so any griefing seems jarring.  
    Points raised here that I see as important: 
    (1) Griefing happens and we will see it continue (how much, who knows)
    (2) We don't understand the TS mod intervention policy on griefing. Hope we'll get an update soon?
    (3) We could use some tools (like a time-limited ability to lock an item in place) to make griefing less fun, and cooperative play more fun.

    Yes, this was lousy: sorry this happened, zee!  I believe in the Wil Wheaton principle of gaming (and life): Don't be a dick. Surprising how well it works.
    Posted 18 months ago by Lelu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wait -- If I'm reading this right -- was it the players choice to give back the items or were they forced by staff?

    Gah, Zeeberk I feel like we have such differing views. Though I would like to see fairness & the like in the game, the fact that staff intervened about this issue is ridiculous to me. Its more-so frightening to me than being impolite.

    Though parties have become a staple of test endings, they arent legitimate events -- aka they are run by players & there are no set rules to them.

    Though I enjoy that staff teleports players to parties, I am overwhelmingly disappointed that staff is acting like a playground aid, making sure everyone is playing nice & fair.
    Posted 18 months ago by Taylor Swift Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Sorry that happened to you :(  I think if there's an option to boot people out of homes it could help with things like this. Then of course it would be up to the host to kick out trouble makers, and remember who they are so they don't let them back in.  Maybe even a "Permaban this person from my house" option.  

    As for the public areas, well personally I think that would be really too hard to regulate, so like in real life, anything left out in the street can't be complained about when it gets yoinked.  The majority of stuff left out in the street unattended is free for all stuff, so if one person gets greedy about it, I'm not going to complain. I did however have a huge issue with those who stole the blockmakers from projects, that was painfully obvious that it wasn't there as a free for all, and in one case I know for a fact they were asked to stop, but ignored it. 

    What concerns me is that I'd hate for this site to end up like some places where you have so many rules and guidelines that you need a Phd to understand all the Terms of Service. 
    I guess I just like the idea that most people know how to conduct themselves in public and don't need someone telling them how to behave, and I hate the idea that a few troublemakers "could" turn things into a nanny state. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think guidelines may be tricky because that's all they are -- guidelines. They're not set in stone. Even if there were to be guidelines for people not to invade street parties and take beers, it's still going to happen. Some people will just blow the guidelines off.

    Anyway, I've consistently asked about certain mining actions and whether they would be rude or not and gotten a mixed response. I've consistently asked for mining guidelines (remember my etiquette thread?) and gotten a mixed response. I've come to the point where all I can really say is people are going to do what they're going to do, and I'm going to do what I want to do, and if anyone interprets either negatively then it will be handled between the players but, sometimes, shit's just going to happen and we have to accept it. I HATED realizing that at first but, honestly, like I said before, guidelines won't change much in the people that really should be following them because they're just not going to give a damn.
    Posted 18 months ago by Cerulean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mister Cake doesn't think censure is the answer, maybe if we were more careful and nice to everybody then  those who wanted to make grief would get bored and go away.

    Me does think that you shouldn't be able to take machines out of the community machine shop though.
    Posted 18 months ago by Mister Cake Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Mister Cake talks in the third person. And while I like Mister Cake, he is beginning to worry me a bit. :D
    Posted 18 months ago by g33kgurrl Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think Mister Cake and Blasto would get along just fine.

    I don't mean this Blasto.
    Posted 18 months ago by Liridona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • You brought 900 beer to a party.
    Something bad was Bound to happen!
    Posted 18 months ago by Rezatto Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm fairly new - this was my fourth test. My first end of test party was the one at Feman Falters and I was utterly blown away. I had fallen for Glitch, the game, over those few days but it was at that party that I fell for Glitch, the community of players. I picked up a couple random things: a drink I'd not yet seen and a small shiny object with no intrinsic value which began my love for (and small collection of) small shiny objects with no intrinsic value.

    I'm a fairly shy or introverted player in most games. I like to discover things for myself and rarely, if ever, go to help or chat. Glitch deals with folks like me brilliantly with things like the kissing quest and the one to give new players things. The first time it happened to me, I was a bit shocked (and probably ran away). After that, though, I said thanks and got a "welcome to the game!" response. The conversation didn't go anywhere but that little interaction stuck with me - there was something special about this game.

    When I saw the end of test party bit going on in the global chat, I figured I'd go. I was shocked to see so many people gathered there, just to be there. And so many were dropping random items or, even, giving them to folks (someone gave me a ticket... it gave me a cool spinning wheel thing where I won a bean! cool!). It was fun to run around and jump off the cliffs and even more fun to do it with a whole group of folks following each other like lemmings. And the players just did this... they organized it themselves. It wasn't mandated by the game. It wasn't about anything other than folks gathering together to celebrate the test. 

    That memory has stuck with me and is, very likely, why I am still playing and so in love with this game. No party since has held up. Cupcake, your party was fantastic... you just never forget your first. And I would hate for new players to miss out. I would hate for parties to become obsolete or hidden behind closed groups and groups of friends. Players like me would rarely, if ever, find out about them.

    Things will change, of course. Eventually there will be no "end of test" to celebrate and there will be so many players that gathering everyone in a house or even a street will become impractical. But there are holidays and maybe there will be block parties or entire neighborhoods hosting celebrations.  Or maybe it will be Ur-wide with folks gathering around all the shrines for Cosma or Lem or Alph. 

    And, yes, there will be those that will take advantage of things. They'll fill up their inventory without an ounce of guilt. But before they do, some new players will find a treasure or two. Some older players may discover that one last music box they need or a purple flower to make up for the one they left at home. The risk is there, but so is the reward. 

    Formalized community standards make me nervous and, I think, the more power the community is given in enforcing things, the better. "Don't be a dick" covers most things, I've found. Going much further leads to a chilling effect as folks push the boundaries and things become more and more regulated. The idea of setting up party zones is a nifty one - especially if it comes with various powers for the party host. Perhaps they can blacklist trouble makers and after so many party blacklists, troublemakers can't enter party zones. 

    But the idea falls apart for me if, say, standards lead to a regulation which only allows a player to pick up 3 things in a party zone. Or, worse, a limit of 3 + whatever you drop. Parties will become about trade and not about play. (and the griefer sorts will pick up music boxes and drop beans... or whatever)

    tl;dr = I <3 parties. I <3 Glitch. Party zones are interesting, but regulations are tricky. Party zones should come with host powers, but should not be about picking up and dropping items, that turns parties into trade centers. That would suck. 

    (also Zeeberk, I'm sorry you had such a frustrating thing happen. That sucks. But I must say, your story makes feel much much better about taking a hairball flower, random kindness, and a couple drinks... I had been feeling greedy and a bit embarrassed by that.)
    Posted 18 months ago by Vera Strange Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Ebil about the booting. If the party is at a private home (such as Cupcake's was) then if someone is not being a polite guest there should be "lock door on this player" button but only the owner can do this. And that would mean they couldn't be summoned there or return just by walking back in. I remember seeing all that beer and then it being gone very fast. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Sunny Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As far as a street party is concerned, I think we'll just have to live with it and not put anything on the ground we can't accept to see being taken immediately by anyone, for whatever reason they please.
     I made a huge surplus of drinks that I left around at the herb gardens before I left the game, seeing as I couldn't attend the party at Cupcakes because it was too late for me. By the time I arrived at the end of the street and came back to the signpost, most had gone and there were only 3 people there. Sad, but inevitable. Just as long as it's useful, I suppose I don't mind. 

    I agree with the initial post however, that the important question is the staff mediation. Or do, or do not. But I'm sure this will have guidelines before the game launches. 
    Posted 18 months ago by Zira Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Great post, @imbri

    I've been hesitating about posting, because I couldn't think of what to add, except that like many I'm troubled about "guidelines."  Except "don't be an asshole" - but how do we even define that?

    When I was absolutely new, like my first or second time playing, I stumbled across some beryl lying on the ground, and didn't see anyone around so I picked it up.  Someone (whose beryl it was) came out of nowhere, followed me for two streets, and finally IM'd me, calling me a "bitch."  I didn't know how the IM worked, and by the time I'd figured it out, or tried to give the stones back, the person had left, leaving me feeling awful.  Later on, I managed to track that person down and return the "stolen" rocks - s/he'd forgotten all about it, but I felt better.

    But what if they'd been able to report me?  What if I'd been banned, or taken to the interrogation room?  Chances are I'd have never come back to the game!

    Now, there are clear differences in this story and Zee's.  The guy that took Zee's beer was clearly an asshole, knew he was being an asshole and ran away from the devs, thinking it was fun.  

    I think the most important point in Zee's post is not the beer story.  It's that devs "punished" that person but not whoever took someone's machine, which was more valuable.  We've all heard the incidents of other more valuable things being "stolen."  Whoever took the machines knew perfectly well they were not "free for the taking."  I think that there ought to be some way of stopping that.

    But about mining?  Or picking up something that someone has dropped?  Or the community gardens?  Or killing trees?  We'll never be able to agree on what's right or wrong, and I think that the devs are right not to try.  And when lots of people leave quite valuable items like bags or emblems lying around for newbies to pick up, it's hard to know what's ok to pick up and what isn't. 

     And I sure as hell don't want some long list of "this is ok and this isn't"  Maybe one guideline should be "use your common sense and ask first"??

    I think I'd like some kind of blocking mechanism, or the ability to kick someone out of a house, or even a reporting process, where perhaps if enough people complained about a certain player someone like Pepper Rose could investigate.  But really... it's just "don't be an asshole."
    Posted 18 months ago by Tradescantia Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The thing i like in Glitch is nice, peaceful atmosphere.

    Last day of the test i saw a guy writing in general chat with caps that someone mines his rock. I have been in several games where with gathering of more and different people i see more rude, unpolite and unfriendly stuff. Things even go to swears, abuse and intrigues.

    I hope Glitch is a nice pure place as long as is possible.
    Posted 18 months ago by Lilla My Subscriber! | Permalink
  • People suck.  In RL and and in MMOs - people suck.  Not all people - some people, maybe a small percentage maybe a big I don't know.  But I do know some people suck and some don't.

    Either let the suckers ruin the way you play the game or try to carry on the way you are.  By stopping what you do you will not change them or stop them doing the same to others - you will however have been changed by them.

    Tell them they suck and walk on - play on - party on.
    Posted 18 months ago by Accy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • It pains me to see that so many are happy to just sit back and accept the actions of griefers as tho its something we have to expect, why is that?

    If this really is a game of giant imaginations and we were told that if we can imagine it we can build it, why can we not build a community party where it is possible to have the party set up for all to enjoy?

    There is a general consensus of what is wanted?

    Then why not a belief in the devs to provide us with the tools to be sucessful?

    It would appear that there is the desire and the imagination for 'street parties,'

    I base this on the following evidence:

    We have managed one every end of test thus far no two have been identical and all have been well attended, the numbers are growing at each one (allowing for times and work and holidays ect)

    We look forward to them

    We can see reason for them to continue

    Therefore

    We need a way to allow a party to be set up without the disruption of griefers.

    I have faith our Devs will find us a way to do this.
    Posted 18 months ago by Faereluth Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with a lot of what's been said here, and don't particularly want to rehash, but I do have one point that I haven't seen anyone mention. When situations like this have come up in the forums, it seems to me that much of the time the OP anonymizes the griefer involved, not giving a name or anything that could be used to identify them. My question is... why, exactly? Why protect them from the consequences of their bad behavior? Frankly, if I host a party in the future, I'd really appreciate a heads up on people who I should decline to let in for fear they'll hoard half the buffet.

    I'm certainly not looking to start any witchhunts here, and in situations where perceived bad behavior might be nothing more than newb cluelessness, or a misunderstanding, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to withhold names. But here we clearly have a player out to cause trouble - indeed, who not only liked the trouble but also the consequences that came with it. If, as most people seem to think is appropriate, the Glitch community is going to be self-policing in matters like this, calling out the people who try to ruin it is going to be one of the only defenses we have. In a game that relies so heavily on community, reputation is a valuable tool. We should wield it in an appropriate and effective manner which, yes, sometimes means that names should be named.
    Posted 18 months ago by Tally Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I wish there could be a *jail* that we as Glitch players could send a wrong-doer. Then that person could spend an entire test or at least an entire day "in jail" without the ability to play the game during that time :D Like I said *I WISH*...

    People who act this way in games possibly act this way in real life too, taking things that don't belong to them. Feeling like everything is theirs for the taking.
    I went to Cupcake's party last night with only one purple flower in my bag so I picked up 2 more at the party to use in-party. I picked up one beer as well. There were a lot of people at the party so if everyone would just take a little and maybe add to the piles of stuff from their own bags, things would go much smoother and everyone would have fun and not have to leave frustrated.
    Posted 18 months ago by PittyPat is sad Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Tally,  I personally do not like public naming and shaming. People have all kinds of reasons for their behaviour, and calling them out in a public forum is pretty low in my opinion. If they haven't broken a specific rule (which they haven't... yet), then why should their name be trashed on the forums?

    Example. 
    Your first day playing the game, you find something on the floor, pick it up and then go to the forums and see someone post "Everyone stay away from Tally! She/He is a thief!" when you didn't even realise you'd 'stolen' something...  How would that make you feel?  

    One thing I've seen on the forums is that people all have very very different ideas of what's right and not right when it comes to game play, and they're just ideas and nothing more. They're not enforceable rules. 
    I feel very strongly that if people start calling others out on here over things they only perceive as being wrong, it could lead to a heck of a lot of upset.

    Yes in this situation, the majority of people believe the beer thief was in the wrong, but did they break any actual rules that should lead them to being tarred and feathered on the forums? Maybe, but if it happened here in this instance, then you'd have people calling others out all the time over every issue and that could lead to huge huge problems.  
    Posted 18 months ago by Ebil Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 1] don't drop 900 items on the floor at one time. increments of 80 at most.

    2] it should be possible for a home owner to boot people out of their house. similar to "evade" when followed.

    3] that's it, really.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • other games fix this, or at least deal with it my making most public area's PvP, meaning you can kill the player being a dick.  That's not going to happen in Glitch though.

    The main problem here is that most people are unpleasant, dont jump at me, you know it's true.  There are a lot of damn wonderful people in the world, and they are accompanied by huge amounts of joyful, amazing folk....  but those people are outnumbered by the vast amount of asshats that are out there, and some of those guys play glitch.

    Can it be fixed? No.

    People suck.  Find a way to make the people controlling the glitches be nice to oneanother in real life, and you'll make glitch a better place, but until that happens, the world of glitch will have people in it that do things you dont like.
    Posted 18 months ago by Mat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "People suck.  Find a way to make the people controlling the glitches be nice to oneanother in real life, and you'll make glitch a better place, but until that happens, the world of glitch will have people in it that do things you dont like."

    naw. maybe 'those folks' will exist but this isn't a 'deal with it' situation.

    i mean it is nice to be able to take the opportunity to parade the whole 'people suck' angle in an oh so conspicuous effort to 'keep it real', but this is merely an issue of the developers providing some tools for establishing semi-private, semi-controlled spaces - as they've done with the "follow" command.

    it ain't no moral quandry, and of course it can be fixed.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • One thing to keep in mind is this is a global game...social mores in one country may not be the same as in yours.  Right and wrong with no guidelines will differ from person to person.  The devs really do need to provide more specific guidelines to help players identify the actual boundaries for good / acceptable play in this game...these can't be done by players per se because 1) they are essentially unenforceable by players, 2) they will differ player by player based on their own cultures. 

    Having a report function where there is a team of mods that are behind the scenes reviewing the incident (and the logs that go with it) to determine what the recourse should be is probably the best that we can hope for.  I don't think we really want vigilante player enforcement.  

    I guess I don't get why guidelines or rules are such dirty words to some people. Sometimes you need to define the boundaries so players can chose to play within them, or intentionally play outside them until they are disciplined.  Otherwise, this will turn into a rather unsocial community because if there are no rules, and more and more people continue to be jerks, then people likely won't trust most others to do what they consider proper/right, especially when the influx of new players happens at reset.
    Posted 18 months ago by b3achy Subscriber! | Permalink
  • plus, no one here is saying that people don't suck and that griefers don't gotta grief. that isn't some grand revelation.

    the issue is the ability for griefers to grief even in ostensibly private spaces.

    oh, and the reason the devs stepped in on this is probably because a bad end of test party experience sours the experience for everyone present, which is a ton of people, whereas other instances of stealing typically only impact a handful of individual victims. if they were weighing some kind of ethical value of not intervening versus a short term solution that keeps the party hopping for the party, good for them. they can always code around the long term issues later, which would erase any possible precedent for ongoing interference.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "I guess I don't get why guidelines or rules are such dirty words to some people"

    They're not, it's just that those who want to define such rules, generally shouldn't be allowed to.  That makes deciding who makes the rules rather a difficult choice.

    Freedom is the most precious thing that you dont own.  We all should fight for our individual freedom, but fighting to limit the freedom of others is rarely a positive ideal.

    (yeah, I guess I'm just a big hippy at heart)
    Posted 18 months ago by Mat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If people had the ability to kick people out of their house, it would've prevented most of the beer from being stolen, and the ensuing chase, and the guy finding out how cool the interrogation room is.

    Let people kick gatecrashers out of their house. That's it, right?
    Posted 18 months ago by Liridona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Let people kick gatecrashers out of their house. That's it, right?"

    right!

    and don't drop quite so much stuff at once, to minimize the damage from quick raids.
    Posted 18 months ago by striatic Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So much here! To a few of the points:

    • Community guidelines are coming. However, they will be "high-level" (AKA "vague") and won't cover things like the number of items you can pick up from the ground because (i) we don't know the right answer and (ii) if we got into that level of detail, the guidelines would be thousands of pages long. And, the application of the guidelines will sometimes be inconsistent because we (as players, developers, etc.) live in the actual universe and not some platonic ideal where everything is unambiguous.

    • As many people have said/requested: the ability to kick someone from your house is badly needed and will come soon.

    • As striatic said, the solution comes with semi-private/semi-controlled spaces. We won't attempt to encode moral standards into something specific enough that a computer can enforce it because either that's impossible or my imagination is too limited to even comprehend how it could be possible.

    • Having said that, if someone has thought through all the ramifications and nuances and has a specific suggestion for how to prevent "bad behavior", please share!

    • Any solution that empowers retribution can (and, if implemented, will) be used by "bad people" against "good people" just as often as it is the other way around. Kind of analogous to how having lots of guns doesn't really make the world safer.

    • But we will probably experiment with things like "yelllow cards" and "red cards" as an extension or alternative to blocking (which already exists, btw) to see if that helps find people who are deliberately trying to ruin the game for other people (which is the thing that we want try to minimize — if the purpose of the game is play, the spoilsport is a much worse threat than the person role playing a "bad guy girl").

    Most humans, in my opinion —and I won't bother trying to convince anyone else— are actually good, interesting, hard-working, loving, considerate people worthy of respect and kindness. We are the majority. "Asshats" are a minority.
    Posted 18 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • :D Stoot said "Asshats".

    Thanks for the news! It's good to know we'll be able to kick people out of our homes soon.
    Posted 18 months ago by Liridona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My understanding is that the beer was laid out on the street in front of the house, so being able to kick the griefer out of the house wouldn't have helped here (except for punishing them by not letting them attend the rest of the party).

    Zeeberk, my respect for you has grown 10 fold once again with these posts. Thank you so much for sharing your well-thought out logic with us, and trying so hard to help selflessly build the best possible game for everyone.
    Posted 18 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I interpreted it as a line of beers from the front door to the other side of the interior of the house. I read "villa area" and assumed it was inside...

    Still, at least that guy wouldn't have been allowed inside. And if I were one of the party-goers I'd take the foods and drinks I brought inside, so he wouldn't have any for being an asshat.
    Posted 18 months ago by Liridona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @stoot..

    "As many people have said/requested: the ability to kick someone from your house is badly needed and will come soon."

    And that won't be a minute too soon :)
    Posted 18 months ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
  • +1 stoot, Shepherdmoon, zeeberk, striatic, b3achy. The only thing I want to say, because I haven't any great ideas at the moment, is that from what I see, Glitch tends to attract a lot of really great people because the game is pretty much nonviolent and just seems to appeal to community-minded folks. Obviously the asshats sneak in, too. But although crap happens in Glitch as in life, it *seems* to me as if a lot more super stuff generally happens here. I have faith that as a community of smart and helpful people, we and the devs will be able to solve or at least lessen many of these issues, maybe more so than we would in other types of game. Hmm, I sound like a cheerleader, but I guess that's what I'm being here: Go team! We can do it!

    ETA: zeeberk, I totally am sorry to hear that happened, but your discussion of it is very insightful and I hope will lead to some good things to come.
    Posted 18 months ago by RM Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Need to point out the beer was outside the house, but inside the block laid as a trail for guests to follow up to the door where the party was, most all the contributors to the party were in the hallway arranging stuff ready for the party to begin, It was hoped that most guests would grab a beer or two on route, sadly when the griefer struck that idea had to go.

    My point is we should be able to hold parties anywhere and not have to suffer from griefer attacks. Why because that is what we imagined we could do, and we are told that we are building this world and part of that building is to build the community within it.

    The party at feman falters, I attended there, it was there that the griefer struck when I was happily contributing to the party, probably noone saw cause the whole lot was removed by one griefer in two raids, I said nothing at the time as it seemed accepted that things would be taken, but its still wrong in my eyes as it deprived the rest of the partygoers something that I had spent time and energy to make for them.

    It wasnt as if they were all dumped in one place I was slowly winding my way up the slope, noticed this one person following and each item going as they passed by, when tackled they said they didnt know there was going to be a party and ran off, so I retraced and reloaded and proceeded to the top only to see the same person following up behind and removing the remainder. So everyone at that party lost out that day, just they didnt know about it.

    If there had been a way to prevent the items being taken until the party had started then some of the party goers might have gotten to have some of the things I gave. I would have been happy with that. As t was I left disheartened, got persuaded back to join in the party but it took till cupcakes party for me to feel I wanted to contribute again.

    So to see yet another griefer attack has kinda stirred me to at least say something.
    In decent society it isnt right to steal what is given for others and aren't we trying to build that here? Or am i so far off the mark.

    We should not accept that a griefer can ruin things others have worked hard to achieve,

    Asking for ways to limit the damage seems reasonable.

    Doing nothing will mean we lose the enjoyment to make parties all can freely attend and that would be a very sad day for those who want to contribute to making Ur something better than real life.

    ETA - Stoot posted before I got done typing. Still hoping we might get a way to hold street parties especially as the numbers grow beyong housing capacity
    Posted 18 months ago by Faereluth Subscriber! | Permalink
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