Topic

Rookswort Steady as a Rook Buff - Not Ten Minutes Any Longer... WTF?!?

As a glitch with a large energy tank, I have needed to munch rookswort regularly to keep my mood up above 90. The buff lasted 10 minutes previously. Tonight I notice that it only lasts 5 minutes.
What happened? is this a bug? a punishment from the giants? a spiteful twist of the IMG knife?

I don't like this. It was a pain to munch every 10 minutes. now every 5 minutes, I am pulling my hair out.
PLEASE CHANGE THE BUFF BACK.

Thanks.
Jope

Posted 6 months ago by Jope Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

  • There is no connection between mood and movement.  If you have died at least once in the day then any time you are at or below 5% of your maximum energy you will be pooped (very slow, bad jumping).
    Posted 6 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • (The slow movement when you come back from hell is, as Flowerry Pott point out, the "pooped" debuff and goes away when you eat enough to get above 5% energy; it is totally unrelated to mood.)
    Posted 6 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks everyone for the discussion and feedback here — a lot of very interesting points have been made and we are taking them all into consideration in thinking this through.
    Posted 6 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Cool. :)
    Posted 6 months ago by Tibbi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Awesome. :)
    Posted 6 months ago by Jope Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I retract my statement then.  My mistake :)
    Posted 6 months ago by Xopher TAF Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot said: " Now, with the new upgrades and rookswort use, it'll take about 25 minutes to fall from 100% to 90% mood (which is the threshold most people care about … after that, mood loss is much slower)."

    With all due respect this is not my experience.   I just went into the game at 18.30 (local time)  My mood dropped 1% every minute.  I collected from my meat collectors, tithed and reflected on my icons then went to another street to mine and collect.   
    At 18.41 my mood had dropped to 90%  this is about ten minutes in my time, not 25!   in another ten minutes of mining and one teleport it had dropped to 83%  and had cost me quite a bit in lost IMg.  (Including a lower return on a Qcrazy Quoin!)  and at 18.53 it dropped to 80%. This is just 23 minutes of play!

    After that I gave up since it was too depressing!  This is a severe penalty for those who play for longer than a few minutes at a time, since one loses IMg with every interaction that does not give mood. 

    It is true that if I had carried out other actions I would have accrued some mood, but not necessarily enough to compensate.   Rookswort would have helped but it has been nerfed.

    I accept that there are things one can do to prevent mood loss, my only point is that is it far greater and faster than was suggested in Stoot's post.
    Posted 6 months ago by Jolycan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • hmm.. hmmm.. Remember when new houses rolled out and at first we still lost mood when we were decorating?  Players spoke up and basically said, hey.. this is counter intuitive.  I'm dying while decorating and that doesn't seem fair.   We don't want to be penalized for playing with the new decorating toys you gave us.   And it changed.   

    I'm feeling the same way about this and hoping for a change.  Glitch is touted as a social game and the game rewards being cooperative.  I feel we are encouraged to sandbox play and activity that is not always the average "active play" of harvesting/making.  I think the rate of mood drop >80 and the nerfing of mood enhancers creates a penalty situation for those who don't want to play like a grinding, statistical, Type A personality player.   

    Ur is beautiful and full of interesting people.  I want to relax and enjoy getting to know both.   
    Posted 6 months ago by Ooola Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I have a small tank and rarely use Rookswort, but I think Pascale asks a very good question:  just what is mood (as a mechanic) supposed to accomplish?  I get the impression that TS doesn't want us to sit online idling all day, but energy already prevents us from doing that.  So the only purpose to mood is to... limit the amount of iMG we get from actions after a while?  It feels sort of weird and punishy to me.

    If high mood had in-game effects that weren't just numerical, I could imagine it being much more fun to play with.  I could imagine people willingly taking the iMG hit for low moods if the little talky bits of the game got funnier (imagine a butterfly going Y U MAD THO?, or a bubble tree starting to think that YOU are the enemy).  Or maybe a low mood, perversely, could create certain in-game advantages that high mood doesn't:  you get poops from butterflies instead of milk, for instance.  Right now mood is just a number we have to keep high through artificial means for artificial reasons, and I don't see any real fun in that.

    I'd also like to second/third/whatever the observation that having a grinning/cranky me-face staring at me all the time is unnerving and unpleasant.  Even when my mood is high it's unpleasant.  Look at my face:  does that look like a face improved by a goofy grin?
    Posted 6 months ago by Pale Queen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I was definitely enjoying my gameplay so much more once I discovered rookswort.  I really hated the whole clock-watching aspect of mood as it relates to img (or xp in the past).  With rookswort I could relax into the game. 

    Another thing I didn't realize would be an issue until I didn't have to think about my mood so much from the drain that comes from watch two things, energy and mood.  While I still have pay attention to energy, having to only have to watch one thing and not two was so much better.  I hadn't realized how draining it is to watch two things.

    So now I'm just playing a couple of minutes a new game day (to re-deal cards, to collect from my collectors, to harvest the icons, until I get all three mood cards.  I just can't deal with the tension of watching energy and mood again.  Hoping the three mood loss cards will help, but I'm not really counting on it.

    I hope the feedback helps in figuring out a way to make it better again.
    Posted 6 months ago by Tibbi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Jolycan, stoot said 25 minutes if you use rookswort.  I still think that's a mistake and it' should be 20 minutes - as you said 10 minutes to lose it without rookswort so it should be 20 if rookswort slows it by half.

    Something I've learned from this discussion is that apparently mood goes down at different rates depending on what your current mood is... take a quick look at my blog and then contemplate the fact that I didn't already know that.  It really shows how little time I've spent under 90% mood.
    Posted 6 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Well, since Stoot's declared that the comments in this thread are being taken into consideration, I might as well add my thoughts. I haven't read through this whole thread, so apologies if I say something similar to what others have said. Then again, it doesn't hurt to do so from a "here's another vote for this" angle. My thoughts, presented in brain-dump form:

    1) Rookswart should never have been the be-all, end-all method of managing your mood. That makes it too essential, and makes all other forms of mood recovery practically useless. I'm glad to see this is going away, while still leaving Rookswart quite useful.

    2) The recent cards to reduce mood loss over time, and especially to gain mood while repairing make keeping your mood up much easier than it used to be. (Frankly, the mood gained from repairing could prolly stand to be to be nerfed, too, but that's another drama- er, I mean, another discussion.)

    3) The original complaints about mood loss from waaaay back when still haven't been addressed, and in fact, seems to have been largely (deliberately?) ignored: The vast majority of mood loss is percentile-based, while the vast majority of ways to recover mood are flat numbers. These do not scale well together, and this is the source of pretty much all of the problems everyone has with mood. Savory Smoothies,  Amorous Philtres (thanks larky lion, below), Icons and Quoins are scaling mood boosters (though the scaling on the latter two are fairly indirect) but it's really insufficient, and threatens to make them into "too essential" strategies like Rookswart used to be. Plus, nowdays, many people don't spend much time in areas with Quoins anymore.

    4) Energy tank cards continue to break one of the fundamental promises of upgrade cards. We were told that upgrade cards would never really have any drawbacks for taking them, and thus we'd never need the option to undo a card choice we've taken, but as recent discussion highlights, this simply isn't true here. Higher mood/energy tanks have clear drawbacks of increases mood/energy loss over time, as well as increased loss from the percentile actions of tree poisoning and teleporting. (Butterfly singing rewards scale with the energy loss, so that's at least reasonable.) Tree poisoning is a bit of a special case where it needs to remain a sizable penalty for everyone, but it's probably about time to look into making the energy cost for teleporting a flat amount, rather than 10%(+) of your max. However, even with that fixed, energy tank cards would still remain a double-edged sword that will likely cause some people to regret their decision in taking them. (I'd also like to see the tanks capped to about 4-5k, but again, that's another dr- er, discussion.)

    Well, that's all that's coming to mind for now, but I feel like I'm forgetting a point or two that I wanted to make, so I might chime in more later.
    Posted 6 months ago by Zigniber Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think I would mind mood management less if buff durations (some of them, anyway) would stack.  Taking twice as many rooksworts wouldn't feel onerous if we could chomp a handful of them rather than having to run out and feed the meter every! five! minutes!
    Posted 6 months ago by Fnibbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @stoot: thank you for taking all of this into consideration, and being transparent as always. love love love it.

    @fnibbit: your idea is awesome; I believe VS referred to this as "munch a bunch." Still like it.

    @zingniber: mood boosts for tool repair are good; I would hate to see these go away.

    @pale queen: advantages for low mood? love it.

    @everyone: if you know of another way to boost mood, let's NOT talk about it for fear of being nerfed.  joking. sort of.
    Posted 6 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't seen a response to Windborn's earlier question: "I have a question about the mood upgrade cards.  I bought the first one, but have never been offered the 2nd and 3rd.Are they tied to tank size, level, or what?  Or do all players have an equal chance at getting them?"  

    I have the same question and looking at some player profiles it appears to me that only the people with larger energy tanks have the higher mood upgrade cards. Could we have some clarification on this please? 
    Posted 6 months ago by Teena Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @ Pale Queen, I find that face un-nerving too, I would very much like to hide it.
    (the smilie face we used to have was way better)
    Posted 6 months ago by ~Kaydee~ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • JolycanHumbabella: WITH the three mood-loss-lessening upgrade cards AND rookswort usage, it takes ~25 minutes to drop from 100% to 90%.
    Posted 6 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Wow.  I didn't realize there were three mood loss lessening upgrades.  I guess now I know what everyone is talking about when they say it's super rare!  I figured there were no more cards when 10 reshuffles turned up nothing but energy.  Let me go fix my blog again.
    Posted 6 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Humbabella - Apparently you need 3000+ energy for the last one to appear. I just learned that last night. xD
    Posted 6 months ago by Misanthrope Subscriber! | Permalink
  • and 35,000 IMG
    Posted 6 months ago by Ligno Plantanto Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for the clarification Stoot.   I have the three Mood Upgrade cards, just need to grow tons and tons of rookswort now I guess!
    Posted 6 months ago by Jolycan Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Time to say it again:  Amorous Philtre, Amorous Philtre, Amorous Philtre!
    Posted 6 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Here are the changes we just made:

    • Lowered the tank size threshold for the appearance of the upgrade cards to 600, 1200 and 2000 (from 1k, 2k & 3k).

    • Increased the frequency of those upgrades being offered (once the pre-requisite tank size is met)

    • Made it so that the cost of energy tank upgrades continues to scale past 3000 tank size (the price previously stayed constant regardless of how many you bought)

    • Changed the formula for mood loss so that, regardless of your mood tank size, the maximum base value for the periodic mood is calculated as if you had a tank of 2000 (so, once you get to 2000, the mood loss is capped regardless of how large the tanks ultimately get)

    I don't think this addresses the more fundamental issues people were raising here (is mood a worthwhile mechanic in the first place? should the bonuses/mood percentage be re characterized to be "overcharged" at 120%?, should mood loss occur when you are doing nothing? etc.) but … these changes were much easier to make and they will make a difference :)

    There are some other changes coming up in the next few weeks which will make a difference here as well, so we'll see how it all pans out.
    Posted 6 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • nvm, Stoot just answered my question XD  Looks like I'm going to have to purchase at least 220 more energy to get the 3rd mood loss reduction card.
    Posted 6 months ago by Xopher TAF Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Oh, awesome. Thanks for being so responsive on this and willing to tweak stuff to improve play! Looking forward to seeing the additional changes roll out, too. :3
    Posted 6 months ago by Tathak Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Change it back! change it back!
    Posted 6 months ago by AwesomeCardinal2000 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • yeah for response! :D
    (although I am not "mathy" -so the fine points of the changes are , I am SURE, lost on me) .
    Stoot- while you and the team are thinking and tinkering-
    could you please look at my post on page 2 -and see if the fall rate that i was experiencing (very similar, i think ,to jolycan's rate that he experiences and mentions in his post above on this page 3 ) -and tell me (everyone) if that is (was?) the CORRECT mood fall rate ??
    thanks!
    Posted 6 months ago by serenitycat Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Great changes for now (I do have faith that some of these other changes you are making will help in general) but strangely enough this brings us back to the original topic of the discussion: there is no need to nerf rookswort so harshly!

    At this stage with all the mood upgrades you only lose 15 mood a minute at maximum.  That would make rookswort only prevent the loss of 37.5 mood.  For an herb worth 75 currants that doesn't seem like a lot.

    It's funny how that works out, eh?
    Posted 6 months ago by Humbabella Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot said 10% in 25 minutes with rookswort and three mood rate upgrades.  Take off the rookswort, it's 10% in 12.5 minutes.  Take off the mood rate upgrades, and it's 10% in 6.25 minutes.  That means a 6% drop in just under 4 minutes, which is not far off from what you described, serenitycat.
    Posted 6 months ago by Fnibbit Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I didn't realize the mood loss cards only showed up when the energy tank was a certain size.  So now I know why that third mood loss card never shows up.

    While the changes are good, I don't understand why people are being dinged for not have bigger energy tanks now.  You can never get the full mood loss rate reduction without buy tank cards.  I'm sure there was a reason for it, and I'll live with it, but it still doesn't seem to make sense.  The original rookswort buff was just so much simpler and even-handed. Everyone got the same buff regardless of level or tank size.  And 10 mins was really perfect.  Could that please be changed back.

    Again, good changes.  Thanks for listening.
    Posted 6 months ago by Tibbi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • This is all really great; when do we get Poutine?  MMMM Poutine!  Yum yum yum omm nom nom.

    Also, flying ponies.  Just cuz'.  
    Posted 6 months ago by ☣ elf ☣ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am encouraged to hear that you are looking at the mood mechanic from the ground up. 

    I know it's radically challenging to look at something that's been built-in from the beginning and question how it works and/or whether it makes sense at all. TS's willingness to do that is awesome.

    We're in beta and everything is in flux. It's the perfect time to ask the hardcore question: how does this contribute to the gameplay experience?
    Posted 6 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I want to know when TS is going to figure how out to keep my mood from tanking every time I read the forums.  You should send me some drinks as I need much buffs to read them without losing mood.
    Posted 6 months ago by Sloppy Ketchup Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks Stoot and T.S. for being so responsive to this topic. It feels great to speak up and get heard and responded to. Let's play and see how it works!
    Posted 6 months ago by Jope Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've been mucking about for a few minutes and it already seems better. There's a mood drop, as would be normal and expected, but it's nowhere near as plummetty as before.

    Also, I second elf's question. When do we get poutine, please?

    Thanks for your willingness to consider and adjust. Much appreciated, stoot and TS.
    Posted 6 months ago by Voluptua Sneezelips Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you! I am still managing my mood but now it feels, well, manageable ;0)
    Posted 6 months ago by geekybird Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Since I'll be consuming Rookswort more now than ever can we please increase the harvest yield??

    (To some number higher than 1.)
    Posted 6 months ago by La Mariposa Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What's always bothered me, given the way the mechanic works, is that it's called mood. Why should my mood decline when I'm strolling about admiring the scenery or chatting with a friend or using a skill I enjoy? It would make more sense to me to have mood reduced by things like making over 100 sandwiches or harvesting thirsty trees without first watering. 

    Alternatively, the way it works now would make sense to me if it were called something like "focus" or "acumen" or "verve" -- especially given the interaction with iMG.
    Posted 6 months ago by Splendora Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Woah, awesome changes, Stoot! It's about time mood loss got capped. I'm really gonna have to put some serious work into my tank capacity now. With the new upgrade cards, the mood loss cap should work out to being about the same rate of mood loss I'm used to. Now if only we could get something done about the teleport costs.... though hopefully that'll come along soon as well.

    And, just to reiterate: Awesome, awesome, awesome!
    Posted 6 months ago by Zigniber Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I've never understood how mood is meant to contribute to the fun of the game. Even before giant energy tanks and nerfed rookswort -- from day one, really -- I've found dealing with mood to be a chore, something distinctly unenjoyable about the game, a necessary evil burden that I have to haul around in order to get at the stuff I love. Can someone explain to me how it's supposed to work as a fun part of the game, or what the basic rationale for having it is? Would gameplay suffer if we didn't have to deal with mood at all?

    P.S. Thanks Pascale, I would've probably been too embarrassed to admit that I just don't get the mood thing if you hadn't brought up the hardcore question.
    Posted 6 months ago by Sirentist Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yay! Very nice changes!
    Posted 6 months ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The mood question is an interesting one from a design perspective. Adding complexity sort of sounds as if it ought to automatically make a game more interesting/fun, but complexity that has no intrigue, nuance, or intrinsic meaning/consequence unique to it and vital to the shape of the game doesn't add fun, it adds tedium.

    So, how does/could mood management add to the essential Glitchiness of the Ur experience?

    I'm curious: Is this mood/energy split-tank thing typical? Do other games handle it differently? Is this some kind of standard thing that just got incorporated into Glitch 'cause everybody else does it? If it was a Glitch innovation, what was the intended effect? (I'm truly asking from an uninformed place.)
    Posted 6 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • BTW, devs, stoot, the changes are v. nice.
    thanks.
    Posted 6 months ago by CrashTestPilot Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If you didn't lose mood, you wouldn't be motivated to quaff Amorous Philtre and run around making everyone fall in love with you.
    Posted 6 months ago by larky lion Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you for the update and changes Stoot, much appreciated. I've upgraded my energy tank to 2000, been offered and bought the 2nd mood card. Cross fingers the 3rd one shows up soon.

    Be interesting to see what other changes you have in store for us in the next few weeks!
    Posted 6 months ago by Teena Subscriber! | Permalink
  • So pleased about these changes. I didn't really enjoy playing yesterday and almost didn't log in today, but decided to check the forums. Having read the changes you made I logged in and after half an hour I think the fun is back

    So thank you
    Posted 6 months ago by IrenicRhonda Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks Stoot for the changes and being open to suggestions!  
    With an energy tank upgrade, mood cards and your changes, it is a huge improvement.  
    Posted 6 months ago by Ooola Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Ahh...TY TY TY!! :-)
    Posted 6 months ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i LOVE the changes! Thanks team!
    Posted 6 months ago by Jope Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Pascale:  A falling resource that has to be maintained is not a Glitch innovation, but it is also not a default idiom either that one would just throw in because that's how others do it (unlike, say, xp and leveling).

    Edit:  as for adding to Glitchiness, in my personal opinion, mood is not very Glitchy as a mechanic (maintaining an automatically falling resource is punishingly uncasual and inhibits sandboxiness) but very Glitchy in what it scaffolds in terms of drinks and drink making.
    Posted 6 months ago by Meromorphic Subscriber! | Permalink