Topic

An epistle to the devs

Dear devs,

You've made it clear, through word and deed, that part of your goals for Glitch are that players interact in groups, and that repetitive behaviors, not being fun, should be avoided.  These are goals I laud!  I want to see varied play, and group activities in Glitch.

Specifically, nerfing cheese making on no-no by adding a delay to the production of dairy products (rightly) made a very rewarding repetitive behavior much less rewarding.  Speaking as a former cheesemonger, I'm glad you did this.

Rook attacks and street projects are built as group activities.  Recently, Party Packs seem to be designed to encourage group activity.  I'll admit, I haven't participated in a Party (that was paid for), so I can't speak to the success, but I also can't say I'm drawn to them.

What I'm concerned by is this: the way that the skill tree, and the auction house interact produce the following effect reliably.  Players become economic islands unto themselves.  
It's *almost* too demanding to accumulate enough skills to fulfill some game-economic goal on your own - but not quite.  It's still very feasible to mine your way into large houses and much favor, and the mining tree is (relatively) short: a week covers the whole thing.

The auction house, as it functions today, is a race into the arms of arbitrage.  Players who can collect a resource easily drop it on the market for 80% of it's base cost where it is reliably purchased almost immediately by the literal crowd in Cebarkul and resold to a vendor.  Prices above that are quickly undercut - listing fees mean that it's a loss even to try to sell above minimums, so sellers ensure that their items will at least stay on the front page.

There are also structures in the skill tree that weakly incentivize economic independence.  For example, the fact that Refining II is required to craft a Grand Ol' Grinder means that a player needs to be on the Refining path anyway in order to make the best tools for the job.  Toolmaking as a specialty is weakened as a result.

So at present there are incentives and counter-incentives to find a cycle of harvest and crafting and do the whole thing yourself.  Mine, sell chunks and donate gems.  Keep herd, sell meat and milk, donate eggs.  That kind of thing.  These are solitary, repetitive pursuits.  But they're rewarding, and both variation and interdependence are not.

If I were the only one to feel this way, I'd have kept this to myself, but daily there's a new forum post that touches on the auction house, or the skill tree, and I believe these complaints all touch on these issues.

I put it to you that the best way to encourage variation and interdependence would be to change the Auction house.  I personally think the best change would be to add buy orders and a last-sold price for items.  Likely, the auction house would need to be more prominent in the world - at least be added to the main site navigation.  

I would predict the the result would be that players would check the market prices of things they can produce, and decide what to do on a game-daily basis.  It's possible side deals would spring up, but regardless, a miner who needs earthshakers would drive up the price, and other players would have a reason to break out of routine to fulfill the demand.  If the price of earthshakers goes to high, miners can buy food or consider other activities.  

Altering the skill tree - the addition of new skills and activities with their own feeds into the economies of the game - would also help.  It might also be beneficial to throttle daily energy refreshes, or to ramp up glitch attacks and street projects (possibly even: the one requires the re-do of the other.  But, their help would be magnified by a change in the auction house. 

It's distressing, having come to these conclusions, and seeing other players frustrated by what I see as effects of this core issue, not to at least hear a developer comment about this, since "macro-economic changes are coming..." which have yet to have had an effect.

Sincerely,
Yarrow

Posted 14 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • I admit I didn't read all of the posts. A bit under time constraint, but I'll reread the posts later. Good thread so far what I read.

    Also want to say that I've made posts like these multiple times. I made a post about how they need to eliminate vendors from selling finished products. Others had too. Ultimately, Stewart and Co evaluated it and took away a lot of vendor sold items and that has had an overall positive effect. Good good. They do listen.

    But, my main contention from day 1 has been the overall lack of team play. It was so bad, that Adam and I were sitting there trying to play this game together... but there's nothing to do together. Not enough. There are a few things to do, but not enough. Being solo is so much more beneficial than being teamed-up.

    Not only that, there's no real end game to work toward or work on. I don't count street projects as true end game. They just don't do it for me. I have no interest in them. Maybe I'm at fault? But making a lot of stuff just for another street with the same things on it doesn't appeal to me. If we were working on a street that had amazing new things, I'd prolly contribute. But to me it just feels like making for the sake of making.

    More later.
    Posted 14 months ago by Mr. Dawgg Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I haven't seen any rook attacks. I've only seen a couple of street projects. I would greatly welcome group quests of some kind.

    It's boring to just level up solely on one's own. I do enough of that IRL.
    Posted 14 months ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "Do you believe there are self-sustaining non-repetitive activities that will reward solo only play for those same players six months from now? "

    Lots of us have been doing that for a very long time.  Admittedly there was the excitement of testing,  but I'm still here now it's open all the time... And it's slowly drawing me out, being more "social".  Not in the gaming I do but in the interactions I have with people outisde of my gameplay.
    Posted 14 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • massive +1 to a bigger skill tree with more ingredient interdependence, less skill interdependence and 3-week-or-longer skill learning times!

    People should be able to specialise if they want to.
    Posted 14 months ago by Saro Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I am going to leave aside the issue of solo vs group play because (1) we want to support both and will add more features, content, etc., which make both better (the group/collaborative/co-op side is in more urgent need of new mechanics/support right now but they will both get plenty of love in the long run) and (2) whether or not the activities in which you engage in game in order to [have fun/acquire money/get resources/level up] are solo or group-based, the world is populated with other players and the choices they make will effect what choices are available to you whether you play socially or not.

    So, back to the original point: Yarrow, we agree that more variation and interdependence is the right thing to aim for and we are aiming for it. However, the idea that the "best way to encourage variation and interdependence would be to change the Auction house" does not address the underlying issues:

    • The demand for certain items is artificially driven by fixed-price vendors

    • There is insufficient demand from players for these items to pick up the slack if the vendors were eliminated (e.g., if vendors stopped buying chunks of rock, the price would collapse since powders and street projects are currently the only end-product of rocks)

    • The only way to build demand among players is for the items to have a meaningful uses in the game (fun/profit/advancement/etc.)

    • Many of the planned skills, items and mechanics which tie together some of the current resource tree dead ends (e.g., crystals, blocks, metals, etc.) haven't been added yet so a lot of the depth/complexity/richness is not yet realized.

    • There are too few skills so at the highest levels, everyone is a generalist (no specialization is really possible)

    • Energy management at higher levels is a bit too easy so there are no meaningful choices to make

    • Having the auction delivery times as quick as they are now means you can just have anything, for the same price, whenever you want, wherever you are in the world

    • There is no viable alternative to the Auction system for player-to-player trading (which means there are no marketplaces in the world which makes the world kind of dull)

    I could keep going with that list for another page or so, but the point is that switching from an ask-only auction to a bid/ask auction is barely even treating a symptom of the underlying issues (and there is already at least one API-based tool for automating purchases based on bids you make: in the long run, we expect most serious users of the auction system to use third-party tools because it will mostly be high-volume trade of basic commodities, not small batches for immediate individual use).

    The things we are working on to move the whole system forward right now are (1) new skills, (2) new mechanisms to support in-location player-to-player trading, (3) continuing to adjust the current vendors (on our way to switching to something more closely based on real supply and demand), and (4) Group Halls.

    The last one will be very important, even for people who have no intention of joining a group, because the building/upgrading/maintenance of the Halls will create significant demand for some items which currently have very little purpose, as well as require (new) high level specialized skills.

    All of these are linked together (almost everything is linked together pretty tight!) and many of changes have to be evolutionary rather than all-at-once or some systems will just collapse and there will be too much freaking-out :)

    I've often used the metaphor that, over time, we'll be "removing the scaffolding" of the game systems and it pretty accurately connotes what needs to happen. But since this is an entirely new thing and is pretty complex, there needs to be a lot of testing and observation of the effects of each change … it's a bit like design Jenga.
     
    We have a lot in development right now that will change the game in pretty fundamental ways and we'll see what happens when we release each part: some will be Just Right immediately but it is pragmatic to expect unexpected results from some of the changes and adjust accordingly.

    Anyway, thank you for the thoughtful post and all the discussion. It will be interesting!
    Posted 14 months ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I hope one of the new skills is Freak-Outery.
    Posted 14 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I just want to say that I agree with the OP 99% and am glad also to see that the devs are thinking about similar issues.
    Posted 14 months ago by Elenuial Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have to say  I am one that loves being able to work on every skill and be a bit independent. I harvest, craft, mine, garden, alchemy,  etc and working on all the skills and I enjoy it immensely! I love the fact I can do all the skills if I so chose and find the thrill of getting achievements and trophies.

     I socialize with my housing group and friends I have met along the way as well as help newbies when possible and that is how I enjoy the MMO experience.  That is how I enjoy playing and where am I wrong in that?
    I am not seeing a huge problem with the auction system. It worked fine for me and I was able to make enough to afford my 50k house, big bags, and tools and still have more than enough currents to buy and do stuff. This game is not a money sink at all so once you have your 50k house, tools, bags, etc... how much more do you think you need there is not much more you can spend it on to be honest unless your into cubes.

     I don't use teleport as I rather enjoy the subway and love running around discovering and I have had more fun chatting with others and making new friends and playing with my toys in the subway and footing it... I have had some fun adventures and look forward to having more!

    I would hate to be stuck to only a certain number of skills as I use ALL the skills but the teleportation. I like to make my own food and drink. I like being able to do my own gardening. I like to raise my own livestock and trees and eventually make my own tools. Why must any of us have to depend on another player for all that if we so chose not to? I would hate to depend on the auction house to get food or drink or veggies.

    I have to say I love the game pretty much the way it is. I love the freedom I have to do whatever I choose to do to develop my glitch the way I WANT to develop my glitch... a smart, self-proficient, independent, hardworking girl!  I know there will be changes but I am hoping and praying it will not change so drastically that it makes us all too dependent on someone else or the auction house. I am too independent for that.
    Posted 14 months ago by Casombra Amberrose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The return of street projects that require vast amounts of resources will help with the auction tremendously: cherries used to be 10 currants a piece or more back when projects needed alot of them. Now, they're not worth nearly as much, and I see no reason to sell them or collect them in large quantities (except for stock-piling for the days when they'll finally be needed again). Food will also need to be bought in larger quantities when the projects get going again. Even making my own food back in the day wasn't enough for some long-hauls on some complicated street project phases, and I had to buy more from auction when I ran out. The auction was worth alot more to me back then. I sunk a ton of money into it... now, I don't need it--I have plenty of free time to get the limited items I need for myself, by myself. There is nothing to do but accomplish my own personal, individual goals. There is a lack of resource sinks. When the sinks come back, through street projects, group projects, increased Rook attack frequency, etc., things will change and the economy will become inter-dependent once again.
    Posted 14 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Awesome dev response FTW
    Posted 14 months ago by Pease Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with Shepardmoon, there are quite a few resource sinks already built into the game that will drive the currently idling economy into high-speed/interdependence when they are reactivated or new ones are added to the game. Many of the long-time players/beta-testers are aware this will happen and are already speculating on what will be needed, stockpiling resources and focusing on related skills. Hoarding now for the time when demand will spike to make a killing on Auction or top the charts to win trophies. There just is not a large enough demand now for resources so competition is low, cooperation isn't needed and Auction values hover near Tool Vendor buy prices.

    (Off topic) On the other hand, I must say that with the much larger population to draw on compared to Beta, the two new area's seemed to get completed in record time and a lot less fuss during the most recent Street Building. It might be a good idea to increase the amount of resources  and time needed to complete such large projects so that more Glitches become aware and can participate before they are completed.
    Posted 14 months ago by Rayana Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Rayana, it's true that the two new areas were completed in "record time". This was because the projects were the types that originally had been created for the nostalgia areas: simple, short and easy. I presume the devs did this for two reasons: 1) most people didn't have advanced skills yet, so they wanted everyone (even low level) to be able to contribute, and 2) they realized that more mining space was desperately needed with the huge influx of new players, and wanted it to open up fast. I presume that when the new street projects open up they will be much more difficult and time consuming, and will open areas more slowly. I'm totally fine with this, and looking forward to the challenge. If I didn't have the challenge of speeding up my skills to max right now, I don't think I'd be playing as much as I am. Eventually that well will dry up, and I'll need something else to consume my need to be driven toward some grandiose, pressing goal. 

    I know they are working on completely revamping the street projects, and I am very curious to see how that pans out. I can't wait!
    Posted 14 months ago by Shepherdmoon Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Stoot,

    Thanks very much for your response.  It helps to be reminded of why I felt like investing in a subscription, and your occasional comments about the design and direction of Glitch was a part of it.  My faith renewed, I'll try to be patient while I await the scaffold-removal.

    Yrs,
    Yarrow
    Posted 14 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink
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