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#### The newbies ask too many questions! How to resolve?

The questions are always the same:
"Where can I buy salt?"
"Where do I get flour?"
"How do you make cheese?"
Over and over and over. I know that we had a big discussion earlier today about "either answer it politely or don't at all." I think the team is aware that certain things are not intuitive, but I also don't think it's worth it to hold users' hands. Why should they progress and get to level 11, 12, 13, without really learning that the point of the game is to explore? After all, that's what we have to do in our daily lives.
I've attempted to send them to tools spirits, asking them to purchase the tool and hopefully take it from there - I'd like them to develop an exploratory spirit, hoping that it will eventually click in their minds that maybe, since they saw other spices when they made that salt, that maybe you can also get pepper from it. Or that maybe if you're looking for an apple and there are no apple trees, that the fruit changer can probably get you what you need. After all, that's what *I* do when I get a new game, a new piece of software, a new device - I explore it, and I figure it out. I use manuals, other documentation, community resources (like the groups here)...and usually my last resort is, "I think I need to ask someone." But the help channel is littered with users that aren't even trying to put two and two together (or at least, I'm aware of a few repeat offenders who are clearly looking for someone to do their work for them).
I think the game definitely needs to be made more self-sufficient. I think either in the tutorial, their attention needs to be drawn to some of this somehow, or Magic Rock needs to be a bit clearer in saying, "You might want to look in Tool X to do this," at least for the beginning quests. Existing resources (such as the encyclopedia) need to be made stronger, and maybe they should even include what tool should be used to get them started. You don't need to go as far as including recipes, necessarily, but if we can at least start making people actually look within the UI (maps, recipes for tools, etc.), instead of to everyone else, for help (and NOT hand-holding), I think everyone becomes more self-sufficient.
I also think it might be worth it to "employ" volunteer higher-level/trusted users to get some of these people started. Of course, these will have to be people that don't mind answering the same questions repeatedly, and there has to be a certain amount of patience involved. I think at one point, the game Second Life had such a system of "guides" who would volunteer their time and energy toward making sure that newbies could get on their way quickly, and it also gives them that positive first-use experience in that they have a friendly face greeting them and making them feel welcome in the world.
(We're not going to discuss the fact that Second Life is all downhill from there. Har har.)
I know we're never going to get rid of that contingent that absolutely wants their hand held, but I think it's worth it to at least *try* to break them of their bad habits and actually explore - after all, I think that's a big part of the game.

Posted 2 years ago by Aerin | Permalink

### Replies

- cheese. I mean, who thinks "milk" when they think of butterflies? Some in-game hints on these things might be good.
  Posted 2 years ago by Girly Girl | Permalink
- cheese right away lol. And on that on, anyone who's spent any amount of time on the game at all should get most of the humor clues. To emphasize, all you have to do is explore every single option on every single item. Most of the time your question will be answered. Just be patient - feed your explorer, not your ego.
  Posted 2 years ago by Mizagorn | Permalink
- Maybe even link to the encyclopedia from the quest log or Magic Rock. As it stands right now, no one knows how/where to find it.
  Posted 2 years ago by Aerin | Permalink
- As a newbie myself, I found myself wanting a quick reference for things I've already seen in-game. What items are trivially available from street spirits, and therefore what'll take more exploration to suss out. Maybe that's still too much, but there's a hell of a lot to keep in my head.
  Posted 2 years ago by Greater Snotbug | Permalink
- I think most of the questions that come up again and again — making salt, finding fruit, cooking buns (I've seen that one a lot) — are basically because the game's combinations aren't intuitive if you don't know what you're expecting. People are logging into the game for the first time with very few expectations, and not necessarily realising that it's worth exploring recipes, items etc.
  But once you're in that frame of mind, the questions go away. The first time somebody realises they can make salt by grinding allspice, they're far more likely to start exploring those recipes and making the connections.
  I wonder whether we could collect some data on this and provide a hint button for those elements which newbies find hard. If you clicked on "a pinch of salt" in a recipe and the rock said "hey, you can make lots of things by grinding allspice" it would make things a lot easier.
  Posted 2 years ago by wurzel | Permalink
- As a newbie I had no idea what was going on, so just followed the onscreen instructions. Yes, I got stuck on how to make cheese because up until then it appeared everything was in stores - I searched over 10 stores for cheese until I opened the chat and saw someone else ask. I never realised I should be trying to make connections as the tutorial had made everything seem to follow in order.
  I guess it may have helped if the tutorial had said, with a twinkle in his eye, that some things aren't obvious and you may need to try some of the other options and figure out new ways of making stuff...?
  Posted 2 years ago by MeetHead | Permalink
- I am a newbie, and I agree that some of these questions arise because the answers are so non-intuitive. I need to season beans . . . okay, I guess I need beans and some spices or other food ingredients . . . but a "bean-seasoner"?? I never would have thought of that. There does not seem to be any rhyme or reason to what things can be bought, what things need to be made, and what things can be simply found. Even the things that can be found don't always make sense - why does grain come from a hen? Why not from a plant?? Our newbie questions might be annoying, but you must admit it's pretty confusing at first.
  Posted 2 years ago by Epimiliad | Permalink
- I don't want newbies to feel like they can't ask questions in the help channel, no matter how basic they are. I still have to ask some of those questions, and with the lack of readable support at my fingertips, asking in the help channel is the most expedient means and there is nothing wrong with expedient! Your lazy is my expedient! My word is longer, more positively nuanced, and more impressive! I win!
  I think the first thing players should get is access to a well written hint laden encyclopedia where the descriptions are more detailed than they are now. Glitch needs writers, and Aerin wants to write...natch. :-)
  Would it be possible to let them purchase a Big Book of Glitch that would give players access to the encyclopedic pages, or a wiki or somesuch?
  ETA: NOT in the tutorial. That's like giving someone the code to use in the copy machine on their first day on a job, when they barely know what pens are in their drawers. Many new users are not even clear on the whole story framework yet. Keep the tutorial simple.
  Posted 2 years ago by Nanookie | Permalink
- OK, after posting that I went back and played, and here is an example of what I'm talking about. I need to make a sammich, so I need meat and bread. OK, meat comes from a pig, that's simple. But grain comes from a chicken? And you use a chopping board to turn it into flour? And then you fry the flour to turn that into a bun? But you also need salt? And, is the salt something I can find/harvest, something I need to mine, something I need to buy, or what? Not one single step on the bread process makes any sense to me at all. I like that there are some things which are unpredictable, but I have to admit I get annoyed when it all starts to seem completely arbitrary - there is just no rational way to figure any of this stuff out. Walking around, pointing and clicking, is fun and all, but there is no problem solving satisfaction here - I either figure something out totally by mistake, or someone helps me. Part of the fun of point-and-click type games is usually the pleasure of solving a puzzle, and I'm just not getting that.
  Posted 2 years ago by Epimiliad | Permalink
- The problem I had was needing other skills to complete a quest. I was running around trying to make sauce without having saucery.
  I, for the most part, juist bought lots of crap and hit buttons till something happened. You should tell them that.
  Posted 2 years ago by Ani Laurel | Permalink
- We've discussed some of these things before. I think the mismatched logic is an issue: fruit comes from a tree (expected), but grain comes from a chicken (unexpected). You can buy Fancy Cheese from a vendor, but for ordinary cheese — which is something very different — you have to massage a butterfly, milk it, shake the milk and compress the butter. That's confusing on several different levels.
  Experimentation is fine, but the other constraints on the game mean that you can't (or don't feel that you can) experiment with everything all the time. And some quests require skills that you don't have any comprehension of, and without any warning.
  I know some of the other players don't agree about these things, because the disjointed logic is part of the charm for them. That's fine, but I think it's clearly a problem for new players.
  However, I don't think new players should be given all the answers — instead I'd love a series of gentle prods that push people towards the answer. A more detailed encyclopedia is good, but it exists outside of the game proper and I think that this kind of gameplayer is better without having to refer to a manual.
  Posted 2 years ago by wurzel | Permalink
- And, as an aside, surely aside from gameplay issues, the problem isn't really that new players ask too many questions in the help channel — it's that the help channel gets used by everyone for general chitchat.
  Posted 2 years ago by wurzel | Permalink
- "I think that this kind of gameplayer is better without having to refer to a manual."
  good point, but I would hope the writing wouldn't be manual-ish, or even wiki-ish. It should help the player get familiar with the mindset of the game.
  Posted 2 years ago by Nanookie | Permalink
- I'm sure any supporting material will be suitably in character — and I'd love to have really great, well-written reference documents available — but I think making the encyclopedia necessary to navigate the game early on is adding a whole layer of complexity that won't make it appealing (and may require a linguistic competence that the rest of the game doesn't demand).
  Posted 2 years ago by wurzel | Permalink
- Maybe there could be some simple quests to solve these problems. Make sure a "make a couple spices" quest comes before making a sandwich, and a "make flour" quest and a "make some buns" quest comes before as well. The "make flour" quest could be something like "go squeeze some chickens and then chop up that wheat to make flour!" or otherwise provide some obvious directions. The butterfly milking quests could come earlier, and explain more explicitly how to make butter and cheese.
  I think the skills don't always come in the most logical of orders, and the quests which require things you don't yet have should at least tell you what skills you don't yet have to be able to accomplish them. I think the skill tree should be made a little bit more complex, so that cookery requires spice milling and fruit changing or something along those lines.
  Posted 2 years ago by Aubrey | Permalink
- Questions will be in local chat and IM's once the help channel goes away forever. You'll have to be in an area where newbies proliferate to see the endless stream.
  There are player plans to have a detailed wiki site like coldfront has for Kingdom of Loathing.
  Posted 2 years ago by Tingly Claus | Permalink
- Wikis and encyclopedias are not going to reduce these questions, though, because casual gamers may not want to page through a site or book when there are people at hand in a chat. One might turn to a Wiki for some complicated in-depth advice, but not for where to get salt. While I do enjoy the quirkiness of the game, many items are more non-intuitive than not, which can either lead to that player's frustration if they have to click every object to find the answer or to other players' frustration in hearing the same questions over and again.
  Aubrey's solution to this is good: adjust the skills trees and add new, simple quests early on so that players get the hang of how the game works and how you can expect to play.
  There will always be frequently asked questions that are easier to answer in a chat than turning to a wiki - and it's not a bad social introduction. I usually end up 'friending' people who have helped me or whom I have helped. But when you get the same question too frequently, it is an opportunity to review how that player should learn that info in the first place. Grinding salt from a spice isn't intuitive; I originally asked a friend IRL who was playing how to get it. He said buy it (this was back when salt was sold at Uncle Friendly's). Now you can't buy salt, except at auction, maybe, and auctions can't be found in-game (yet?) so only old hands and the very curious know about them. I only learned _after_ I received a Spice Mill that I could grind salt. So, move that skill up above the 'make a bun' skill. Or include salt in a starter-kit for newbies so that they can make a bun right off with a tip about spice mills when they run out, "You're out of salt! Did you know you can make that in a Spice Mill?"
  Posted 2 years ago by zeeberk | Permalink
- Oh, wikis will reduce, just not come anywhere near stopping them. The KOL wiki has lots of quick-to-find info like where to find salt. Search for salt and presto. I was mainly pointing out that the newbie question flood will be out of the sight of most players since there won't be a global chat channel.
  Posted 2 years ago by Tingly Claus | Permalink
- I think the level of newb questions are completely unavoidable at this stage of the alpha. Stoot has mentioned in the Help chat channel that changes are in the pipeline to reduce the salt / bun questions.
  The "strange" logic of making salt from allspice is okay with me. This is the Glitchverse logic, not real life, and when I'm in the 'verse, I know I have to play by its rules. What needs to be done though, is a way to gently guide new players towards this new set of world rules/logic. This must be done within the game; asking players to go check the groups/wiki at such a basic level of game play is, honestly, ridiculous.
  I also think there is a balance to be defined in the size of logic leaps needed for real world terms like salt / flour that are used in-game. I would argue that grinding to make salt or using a knife board to make flour is too big a leap. Call it "flavour powder" instead of salt to avoid the ingrained association with real world salt. IMHO, it is this real-world association which leads to the in-game confusion.
  My 2 cents (American 1.5 cents after conversion).
  tl;dr: There is no way to avoid these question for now.
  Posted 2 years ago by ping | Permalink
- Certain people like to complain when newbs are using the Help channel for .... asking asking help, of all things... The easiest way to address newbie questions is to answer them. There's a Help channel for a reason. Help.
  Also, get a wiki.
  Posted 2 years ago by Baraeris | Permalink
- I don't think anyone disagrees with ya, ping. We brought up groups/wikis as alternatives, not solutions. A lot of questions can be quashed by spelling out the answer in the quest, "make 3 buns. You'll need..."
  The devs keep saying Help will go away soon, thought it'd be gone by now. The wiki hasn't started yet cuz of the NDA and the game is still in a state of flux.
  Posted 2 years ago by Tingly Claus | Permalink
- Hey Tingly, I didn't mean to diss the idea of a wiki! No offence okay?
  I see how frustrated some people are with the same repeated questions in Help chat, and I guess part of me sort of wishes folks would take a step back and remember that this is an alpha. It's not even beta. The constant stream of similar questions shouldn't be a permanent state of affairs, but until the devs sort it out, there will be these teething problems.
  The Help chat was a lifeline when I was a newb and still is a major help to me in the game. My thanks to striatic, Jade, et al for their patience. You guys rock.
  Posted 2 years ago by ping | Permalink
- Hard to take offense when I said I agreed with you. :) I was just clarifying. There's usually nothing to read between the lines with me.
  Posted 2 years ago by Tingly Claus | Permalink
- I'm still a newbie (level 10) and find the game self expalanatory enough. I explore, wait, and find all the ansquers I need. Till now, I only have to search the forums once. Question ansquered. No need to be anxious.
  Posted 19 months ago by Caralampia | Permalink
- Well, this was from six months ago and things have changed a bit. (Although, I don't know how much the intro has been changed since the last reset.)
  Are they still doing greeters?
  Posted 19 months ago by Lord Bacon-o | Permalink
- I don't think so---I was going to greet two tests ago and then they didn't slot them up. I went through the starting tutorial last night for my husband's new account and there were no greeters about. I suspect maybe really really new players don't feel comfortable with a greeter on their heels.
  Posted 19 months ago by Nanookie | Permalink
- Maybe they can set up help stands, like Lucy van Pelt.
  Posted 19 months ago by Lord Bacon-o | Permalink
- Greeters are kind of a gray area at the moment...jdawg spoke to us earlier and they're still being sorted out. I quote, "we're not really sure what's going to happen with greeters," but also, "I have a feeling greeting will continue."
  Posted 19 months ago by Cupcake | Permalink
- Greeters are a good idea for the start of the game. It will give people a chance to figure out "is this the game for me". However, the questions won't stop. There are a few reasons for this I think. One is that there exists a group of people that just want stuff to come easy. So they will ask when they don't see it. Some people just forget how to do the stuff. The original answer is still a good one-answer politely or just ignore them.
  Posted 19 months ago by Holly Waterfall | Permalink