Topic

[Updated] Nerf Warning: Yellow Crumb, Purple and Silvertongue

Note: the original "Solutions" section of this post has been updated with more information. The changes described in this post have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

Executive Summary
In a few days we are going to make a change to the shucking behaviour of certain herbs and/or alter some herb and seed prices. What follows is a long explanation of why and a short description of some of the alternatives we are considering.[1] Feedback is welcome.

The Problem
Right now you can take a single yellow crumb flower and, given the right upgrades, shuck it to produce, on average, 2.66 yellow crumb flower seeds.

The flower and the seeds both have a base cost of 66 currants — but since one flower nets you 2.66 seeds, the act of shucking turns your initial 66 currants into 176 currants instantly. As The Rube would say: “Great deal, great deal”.

(The same is true of Purple Flower and Silvertongue, just with different base costs.)

It is fun to make lots and lots of money quickly (or lots and lots of favor, or lots and lots of iMG, or, in general, to watch your numbers go up quickly), but it is not a good thing for the game in the long term: inflation makes the game much harder for new players and renders whole other parts of the system useless because the “return” on other activities is so poor in comparison (which, in turn, reduces the choices available to return-minded players of all levels — it is harder to justify the actions/strategies that they more genuinely enjoy if something else is so over-powered.)

Background
There are two general classes of herbs: the first class (Gandlevery, Rubeweed, Rookswort, Hairball Flower) grow one herb per garden plot. Shucking any of these for seeds will always produce two seeds for each herb shucked. (For simplicity, I’m ignoring the effect of any upgrades, higher level skills, etc., and just talking about the base behaviour.)

The second class of herbs (Yellow Crumb Flower, Purple Flower, Silvertongue) grow three-per-plot and shucking these herbs for seeds is a more delicate operation: each time you shuck you have a chance of getting 2 seeds, a chance of getting one seed and a chance of getting nothing … the seeds are smaller and more delicate and harder to extract.

The odds for getting seeds from shucking the herbs in the second group were supposed to work with two random “dice rolls”, each with a 33% chance of producing a seed (and a 66% chance of producing nothing). Those two rolls together meant you had a 66% chance of getting a seed each time you shucked (really 66.6666…% — if you shucked a million seeds, you’d get 666,667 seeds, or very close).

However, when we set everything up to introduce herbs in the first place, the shucking odds were reversed and each dice roll had a 66% chance of producing a seed, instead of a 33% chance. This went unnoticed for a really long time (more than a year!) until we decided to look into what made Yellow Crumb farming so profitable and popular.

(You can see plainly how Class One herbs and Class Two herbs are totally out of balance when it comes to prices, shucking, and seeds by comparing the results of shucking: again assuming no higher level skills or upgrades, a sprig of Gandlevery, worth 40 currants, will produce 2 Gandlevery Seeds worth 13 currants each / 26 total: a 35% loss; one Rubeweed worth 55 currants will produce 2 Rubeweed Seeds worth 20 currants each / 40 total: a 27% loss, etc. Each of the Class Two herbs, on the other hand, will produce a 33% gain when shucked. With all the upgrades it is profitable to shuck all herbs from both classes: it is just much, much, much more profitable to shuck Class Two herbs.)

[Updated] Solutions
Note: the changes described here have now been made and the details are listed in a separate forum post.

We are going to be reducing the base cost of the seeds by half. (Contrary to what some players have said in the comments, this effects both the number of currants the vendors will give you for them AND the amount of favor produced when they are donated.)

This change will be made on Monday the 17th.

In addition, we will also be making changes to the base cost of tinctures (all of them will be increased) and to both the cost and ingredients required for nearly all potions (in all cases the prices will go up and the number of ingredients required will go down). This will make tincture and potion-making profitable and provide another avenue for herb usage aside from shucking and selling/donating seeds. The specifics on those changes will be announced when the change is live.

The original "Solutions" section follows, in italics:
There are two solutions we’re considering and they are both pretty straightforward: the first is fixing the bug and thereby reducing the number of seeds produced by shucking; the second is reducing the base cost of the seeds (which will make them worth less at vendors or when donated to shrines).

Even with this change, it will still be profitable to simply shuck herbs (once you have all the right skills/upgrades) so we will also be rebalancing the base costs for tinctures and potions to make it worth at least as much to create a tincture (or use the herbs for other purposes) as it would be shuck the equivalent number of herbs. That could mean some improvement/boost in the herbs’ “functionality” as well.


___
[1] In the past we've only announced changes at the time we made the change because we figured that was the fairest thing for everyone (people who missed the announcement were not at a disadvantage and everyone felt the effects at the same time). But when we made the change to upgrade tickets earlier this week there were many requests for advanced notice and so we’re trying that, as an experiment.

Posted 90 days ago by stoot barfield Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • Well 'tis for the good of the game so i'm on board. I side more with the seed fix though.
    EDIT: the dice roll fix that is.
    Posted 90 days ago by max_champlin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Nicely written stoot. I'll miss the fat currants, but the crabs will always love me.
    Posted 90 days ago by Sturminator IX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • And just to make the point clear -- if this news make you feel you *must* spend the remaining hours of 2.66x seeds madly farming yellow, leaving all other pursuits aside....

    That is why they *must* return this to balance.
    Posted 90 days ago by Sturminator IX Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The base worth of essences and potions has been out of whack for a long time (ingredients + energy should make them worth more). I'm totally in favor of rebalancing.
    Posted 90 days ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Advanced noticed could be good, or bad depending on the individual.  But definitely appreciated, nonetheless.  Because I will be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm lazy and sticking to my backyard, I'd be trolling the Herb Route as we speak..lol.. xD   And in regards to nerfing I just posted elsewhere regarding both these and tickets.  Nerf: Quoins in "Ticket to _______"
    Posted 90 days ago by Mr. iOuS kEiPhErs Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for keeping us informed.  The part I'm most excited about is actually a point you made in passing at the end -- making tinctures worth more.  I like tinctures and use a lot of them each day, but it's always stuck in my craw that they are worth less than the ingredients we use to make them.

    I've made a lot of money off yellow and the nerf will sting a bit, but it was necessary and I'm glad you've announced it ahead of time.
    Posted 90 days ago by Pale Queen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I prefer this solution:  
     "the first is fixing the bug and thereby reducing the number of seeds produced by shucking"
    Posted 90 days ago by Hellyeah Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I said this in the other thread, and I'm all for the nerf, but whatever is finally done, please do not enact anything that will encourage plucking without replanting. It is already a problem now and I fear it will only get worse.
    Posted 90 days ago by MaryLiLamb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Man, you have a weird job. Your customers must be a pain in the ask cuz I've never spent that much time researching price changes, and I sell to Walmart.
    Posted 90 days ago by Booknerd Subscriber! | Permalink
  • [Repost]
    Vendor buyback prices could be dynamically adjusted based on the amount they have bought already. So instead of getting 54c for a ycf seed, vendors could adjust their price down if a lot was sold to them already in the last 24hr period. Either globally or per player. Each vendor could set its own price which would create a whole new dynamic figuring out where to go for the best price.
    Posted 90 days ago by Zogje Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I prefer the first solution of fixing the bug re: shucking probabilities, but I'm not strongly against either.

    EXCEPT: In the case of Yellow Crumb especially, but also with Silvertongue, the time to grow them is much much longer than the time it takes to grow most of the class 1 herbs--gandlevery, for example. I've always assumed that Yellow Crumb and Silvertongue were worth more because of the required time investment (or guano investment to get around the time issue). That holds up a little less for Purple Flower, since it grows so quickly, but it's also less "useful" than the other two Class 2 herbs AND a lot more Purple is required to make its tincture than with any of the other herbs in either class.

    So while I understand and agree with the need to nerf the Class 2 herbs in some way, I also hope this includes a look at the growing times of each herb to make sure the pendulum doesn't just swing the entire other way (which they may not, since Yellow and Silvertongue are arguably the most useful herbs, at least in tincture form, but still).
    Posted 90 days ago by karibean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Interesting idea, Zogje!  ☺
    Posted 90 days ago by Subscriber! | Permalink
  • i quite like Zogie's suggestion above but it should NOT be global based, player based would be a helluva lot fairer
    Posted 90 days ago by Arietty Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Big ups to what karibean says about growing time/guano. The value of those herbs should definitely reflect the extra time and resources needed to grow them.
    Posted 90 days ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm with Hellyeah and whomever else. Please put my vote in the "fix the bug" and restore it to the way it was supposed to be column. I like this about Glitch and about life. Things should be as they were meant to be. If they aren't right, determine the intent and adjust. It should be about common sense.
    Posted 90 days ago by Holly Waterfall Subscriber! | Permalink
  • As long as it get balanced better I'm all for it. Personally I'd rather the seeds were worth less...than the seed ration from shucking being changed. But however it works out it'll be in the best interests of the game.
    Posted 90 days ago by Lyrical DejaVu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • while you're at it, another un-nerf that encourages people to eat would be a good thing.
    Posted 90 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I do appreciate the advance notice but I am very unhappy about the nerf. I'm one that enjoys making money in games and I do feel I earned every current given how tedious gardening is Especially with the constant lag this game has. I never bothered with the potions and now am very glad I didn't. Imo the time spent for the 2 new skills is a complete waste.

    While I will continue to now Occasionally play this game, my subscription is being cancelled. The social aspect of the game isn't worth paying for and having my little bit of time consuming fun nerfed...no point to pay :(
    Posted 90 days ago by Anya Karenya Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Either/or is fine by me

    Big +1, WalruZ
    Posted 90 days ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Zogje's idea is very cool!
    Posted 90 days ago by TomC Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Yah, I really like Zogjes idea too. As for as the bug, I like the first option the best.
    Posted 90 days ago by Muncey Mango Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I agree with karibean and Pascale.  I prefer the first solution of fixing the bug so that shucking results are more in balance with other herbs, but whatever is done I hope that yellowcrumb will still be profitable considering the time it takes from seed to harvest.

    ETA: I've changed my mind based on later posts and actually prefer the second solution.
    Posted 90 days ago by Persephone Pear Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think that option 2 would be better because when people are starting out with small plots and no upgrades for the herbs it's already possible (if unlikely) to not even get enough seeds to replant.

    Lowering the price of the seeds would reduce the benefit of endless cycles of plant/harvest/shuck/sell on the part of older players without making it less likely that anyone can maintain a healthy growing cycle.
    Posted 90 days ago by Hrulgin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If I had to choose, I'd say make the seeds worth less. But honestly I think it's an unnecessary nerf considering the fact that you could make just as many currants doing less time consuming things than gardening. I don't know about everyone else, but I chose it because I enjoy gardening.

    Yellow takes a very long time to grow, I'd say if you were going to nerf it, you might consider lowering the amount of time it takes to grow as well. Just a thought :)
    Posted 90 days ago by Hoar Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I used the heck out of this lately, and even joined the route. That said, yes, it should be balanced, even though it will make me temporarily unhappy. I am glad I had a chance to have one last hurrah with it though (saw the post in the other thread, and worked the herb route about once a day since then)

    Personally, I prefer that it switch to option 2 (decrease seed value). It's a good point that it would be a poor decision to encourage users to pick and not replant by lowering the number of seeds you got. Maybe make it so that a plot's worth of Tier One flowers (1) and a plot's worth of Tier Two flowers (3) made the same amount of seeds (on average)?

    My rudimentary math seems to imply that the proposed change would result in 50% fewer seeds for Tier Two than Tier One? (My math could be faulty, I'm very tired right now)
    Otherwise we will likely just once again end up with one "correct" herb to grow, and several "incorrect" ones, which is clearly not the intention.

    Whichever choice ends up happening, I am glad to have been asked to give my opinion :)
    Posted 90 days ago by Biohazard Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What Persephone Pear said. Like Karibean I just assumed ycs and st were worth more because of the longer growing time. I'm fine with either option. 
    Posted 90 days ago by GreyGoose Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I have no preference. As Biohazard said, whichever option you choose, I appreciate being asked for my opinion. In this case, I can live with either option! Not very helpful, huh?
    Posted 90 days ago by Mollie Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thank you, the advanced notice is great. And this was exactly what I was hoping for when dealing with such a major change. I think that absolutely, without a doubt, yellow needs to be nerfed. Where to nerf it though? If you nerf the shuck, you would also be nerfing the shrine donations by giving less seeds. Are there any plans to change how much favor seeds give? Likely, changing the vendor price would get around that problem, if you chose not to change the favor gain.

    As Pascale mentioned above, potions as it is are only usable because of how profitable yellow is. The cost of potions doesn't make any sense, you learn an advanced skill only to spend more ingredients, to make less of a potion? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Convenience is not enough to justify the cost. Potions should be the next step up for glitches that have gone beyond upgraded harvesting. It shouldn't only be a premium convenience, in my opinion.

    I think what it comes down to, is that a change this big has to be looked at from all sides and changes to other related systems and items may need to be tweaked as well to smooth over those changes.

    I personally would have to choose option 2, a rebalance of potions, and a look into reducing the grow times of yellow which would also greatly help street harvesting and the amount of actions a day that can be taken on yellow herb streets.
    Posted 90 days ago by Ramus Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I greatly prefer option 2 for many of the reasons listed above. Lowering shucking probabilities will just rope more people into becoming herb suppliers, even if fewer total players are producing herbs. In a far more tangible way, it will "waste" player effort.
    Posted 90 days ago by Alraune Sockpuppet Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Hrulgin, you make a very good point. It's been a while since I was a low-level herb gardener, but you've reminded me of how difficult it was. I think I need to change my support to option #2--reducing the cost/worth of the Class 2 seeds rather than changing shucking percentages.

    Still sticking with the grow times needing to be changed to be balanced with the nerf, though, and I'm glad at least a few others agree.
    Posted 90 days ago by karibean Subscriber! | Permalink
  • If we are voting, then I would prefer option 2.
    Posted 90 days ago by MaryLiLamb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • -Option 2-Especially for newbies ending up with no seeds is rather disheartening. 

    Zogje-I think the dynamic vendor prices is part of the long term plan for vendors for all items.
    Posted 90 days ago by M<3tra, obviously Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I prefer option 1 but either of them works for me really.

    I am quite a prolific yellow grower and the only thing annoying me about all this isn't that it is coming, as I've known for a day or two now, but more than people protest not to be bothered then talk about how people such as me have ruined it for everyone else... Then go back to saying its for the good of the game, that sounds like sour grapes to me!

    I'm excited to see something new pop up in Glitch and with so many things to do there are always ways to make money if people need it, albeit slightly slower than farming yellow! I'm looking forward to getting back involved with the World more again - so thanks! x
    Posted 90 days ago by katykicker Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I prefer fixing the original bug, not changing prices.
    Posted 90 days ago by Kleb Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I prefer Option 1 because I am hoping that "Vendor Buyback" can eventually dissapear entirely from Ur. Fixing the imbalance at the vendor would mean the imbalance coming back, in effect, when we have a self-sufficient economy and the vendors dissapear.
    Posted 90 days ago by Feldspar Gravity Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Solution 2, please.

    At the current 2.66 shuck rate, replanting (by my napkin math) consumes ~8% of your harvest.  At 1.33, it's ~15%.  

    If anything, I'd double the rate once again with an even lower seed value to help reduce the profit motive in failing to replant home streets.  It's more cooperative.  I hear you folks like that.
    Posted 90 days ago by Nightclub Dwight Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The decision to nerf has been made, so my opinion will not be taken into account.  It's apparently also an unpopular opinion. I finally found a semi-fun way to make currency in this game and made enough to afford the rare items.  Without YC I wouldn't have been able to afford them.  

    Regardless of how much you get when shucking or selling or donating or whatever, I agree with part of what Alaina said.  At the end of the day, it's all tedious to do what you need to do to earn currants.   It's not like the goofy herb just appears out of nowhere.  

    I'm not canceling my subscription and I'm not leaving the game, but I don't personally support this particular nerf.  And that's all I wanted to say.
    Posted 90 days ago by ennuienta Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Option 2 makes the most sense to me, as otherwise those flowers are pretty much pointless until you have all the shucking upgrades.  Get unlucky and you could easily find yourself with less seeds than you started with.  I remember having times before the upgrades where that almost happened to me with the odds the way they are at the moment.  Reduce the chances by half and I bet it will happen fairly regularly.  Re-balancing the prices, and re-working essence pricing seems to make more sense to me.
    Posted 90 days ago by FineousFingers Subscriber! | Permalink
  • What upgrades am I missing if I only get 54 currants per seed instead of 66 as mentioned at the start of stoot's post? Also should I bother getting said upgrades if it's being changed?

    Guess I'm one of the people silly enough to spend a fortune on potions that I'll never recover the costs on once this is changed

    I do think the amount of changes going on at the moment is odd.
    People have currants and iMG in abundance because they've played for a long time and had nothing to spend it all on.

    This game does seem to be going the way of every other MMO.
    Play our way or leave,
    So much for the sandbox idea.
    Posted 90 days ago by xombiekitty Subscriber! | Permalink
  • While y'all are fixing broke/unfair things...how about removing veggies from the vendors so those of us who like to grow veggies can also benefit thru selling!?
    Posted 90 days ago by sgjo Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think option 2 is the best idea. It seems natural to go with option 1 since it was the original intention, but considering many of the things people have mentioned here, option 2 just seems a better fit at this juncture.

    Xombie, 66 is just the face value listed in the info window. I don't think anyone gets more than 54 with all the upgrades.
    Posted 90 days ago by Little Miss Giggles Subscriber! | Permalink
  • 66 currants is the official base price of a seed. 54 is roughly 82% from the tool vendor.

    I also have spent a great deal on potions, but it doesn't seem like they are trying to make it unprofitable, just less profitable, which makes perfect sense to me.

    I am personally surprised that it took -so- long for these changes (specifically iMG cards and yellow crumb) to be made. They were blatantly the most efficient/profitable ways to earn iMG and currants respectively. And not by a small margin. 

    *Don't get me wrong, I loved being able to plant yellow, go to college, come home and have it waiting for me to harvest it up and make quick money. But I also recognize that I was making a lot based on minimal effort/play time. I am optimistic that I will still be able to do this after the nerf, to a lesser extent.
    Posted 90 days ago by Misanthrope Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "This game does seem to be going the way of every other MMO.
    Play our way or leave,"


    This seems to me like a grossly unfair characterization of attempts to balance gameplay so that many different styles of play result in roughly equivalent outcomes.
    Posted 90 days ago by Pascale Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "This game does seem to be going the way of every other MMO.
    Play our way or leave,"

    -- and what exactly is the alternative?  "Do whatever I want no matter what" - ?

    Having a credit card doesn't make you king of the world.  Grow up.
    Posted 90 days ago by WalruZ Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "fixing the bug and thereby reducing the number of seeds produced by shucking" seems fair.
    Posted 90 days ago by Electric Wizard Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm glad you guys did announce this, and hopefully it can spread to those that do not check the forums.  The YC obsession has created a niche "I sell YC out of my tower" economy" for either people that did not know the value of shucking people that figured they'd take a small loss and let others shuck and travel to Cebarkul for them.  

    And the nerf doesn't feel like a "play the right way" kind of thing.   It feels more like they don't want there to be only one logical way to play.  As solutions for inflation resulting from income, I still would prefer that more things be introduced that remove currants with more regularity than a rare item binge.  And to solve all the hardcore players focusing on the same thing, I'd rather see more things be lucrative rather than one knocked down.  But even writing it, that sounds like a lot of content.  Maybe some day.  

    In the meantime, I'm with option 1.  
    Posted 90 days ago by Smaug: Hoardkeeper Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Option #2 please.
    Posted 90 days ago by jellybean4r2 Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Though it's mostly off-topic, except in the general sense of 'vendor silliness making the market wonky,' I'd like to echo what sgjo said upthread.  Why on earth do vendors still sell garlic?  And why do produce vendors exist at all?!  Stills were in the game for all of like 3 hours before hooch was removed from vendor stocks, which is a GOOD thing;  I'd like to see more of that please.
    Posted 90 days ago by Pale Queen Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Thanks for the 66/54 info, folks :)

    Pascale, if you keep the three lines together so that it includes the "So much for the sandbox idea." I think what I said is exactly fair.

    Glitch has been touted as a game of imagination where we can all choose to play as we want. Lately there has been change after change that clashes with that ideal.

    I'm a pretty social player but I still haven't taken part in any sharding. How are solitary Glitchen suppose to take part? Super iMG bonuses on constructed meals were brought in to try and make people buy food. Rare item vendors were brought in to remove a large amount of currants from players but now a source of income is also being altered. Mini-game cards were introduced to the upgrade deck so people would spend iMG... and then changed and changed again due to the increase in iMG.

    It's beta. I get that. Perhaps statements that don't seem to be having a go at the players that were doing these things before them being altered is a better way to go?

    I didn't use the mini-game cards (I've done all once, I think, and radial enough to get the star once). I was still aware that instead of something being found as an unbalance and people thanked, it came across more as people being reprimanded. Again, here, it seems those that are/were getting currants or iMG from this are looked down upon instead of thanked for helping balance/improve the game. I was very late to making money from YC, but even I know that the amount you could make from it was pointed out to TS a looooong time ago.

    Was it this thread or the initial heads up thread that the term hardcore player was used? Not hardcore. Just player. In fact, just beta tester. No other MMO I've ever been a part of, nor other game or testing phase, has ever made me feel like a kid getting into trouble like this one has. Seriously. It's like the newbie island scolding ridiculousness. Someone found a way to the island and instead of being thanked for finding the issue people apparently got told off and accused of breaching the ToS!

    Is this beta where things are meant to be pushed, pulled, twisted, and tested... or will we be threatened with removal for finding errors and problems?
    Is this a sandbox game where we can play as we choose... or will more forced socialization and control over how we spend our time be enforced?

    Change YC. I don't care which option. My point still stands that for a game that crowed about being something special and different, it's heading fast towards being very much like every other game... and managing to treat beta testers quite poorly at times.
    Posted 90 days ago by xombiekitty Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm glad that the value of an essence will theoretically now be balanced with the various resources required to create it.  At least I think that's what's been indicated?  I have a lot of yellow crumb - it just insisted on multiplying.  But I never found it very useful for what I want to do.  Then again, I'm not seriously focused on my Glitch bank account. :-)  Balance is good.
    Posted 90 days ago by Joni Mitchell Subscriber! | Permalink
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