Topic

The auction economy

So I have a question:
Why is it that Extremely Hallowed Shrine Powder (a useful item that isn't sold by vendors) sells at auction for 1800 currants, yet the raw components (163 sparkly, 52 beryl, and 92 dullite) sell to a tool vendor for about 1600 currants? Does that mean that all the mining, grinding and alchemizing (assuming you do it yourself, as that is probably the most cost-efficient way to), not to mention all the food and drink you consume while doing it, is only worth 200 currants? Am I missing something here? Is there any economic advantage of spending the time to learn all the skills to make things, or is EHSP just really over-produced? Any sort of insight would be awesome, I'm just a bit confused.

Edit: Thanks to GrindOTron and the Glitch Wiki for their help!

Posted 14 months ago by Devers Subscriber! | Permalink

Replies

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  • As far as auction prices go, imo they have been way overpriced, when you can go to a vendor and buy that item for a lot less then on auction..long as you are willing to walk a couple of streets over.

     I haven't been playing very long and there were a couple of items that I wanted to buy so went to the auction (thinking it would be affordable) well silly me..didn't take me long to figure out that the vendors sold things cheaper.  Also when you are looking for just enough of something, say allspice for example to complete a quest and all that is for sale are big amounts that you can't afford it does tend to have the auction experience leave a bad taste.

    And music blocks are a good example...I am not sure why anyone would buy a music block for over 500 c when so many of the common ones are being given by tending trees/plants.
    Posted 14 months ago by Crazi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My 2 cents:

    1. Vendors buy anything for 70% of value (unless item is valued at 1c, then they buy at 1c). Auctions take out 9.5% when sold. So the window of profitable pricing is very, very small, assuming nothing gets listed on the AH over 100% of it's value. This in combination with...

    2. When listing items on the auction house, it tells you the lowest value per item rounded to a whole digit while it tells you how much you're listing your stack for rounded to the first decimal place. When most stuff I'm assuming in high quantity is valued at 5-10 currants per item, it is real easy when undercutting to drop the price down quickly with stuff that stacks to 250, etc.

    So I suggest lowering vendor buyback price to widen the window of pricing in the auction house, and incorporate the rounding to first decimal place on the current market price.  Also, get rid of everything off vendors that isn't a starting tool or item. Still too easy to be independent in that regard.
    Posted 14 months ago by Zu Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I'm thinking the problem is really just in the amount of supply. Given that the game is pretty much exclusively about gathering resources and then combining them, it means that's what everyone is doing, and no resources are really very scarce.

    Resources enter the economy every time someone mines or harvests or nibbles. How are they taken out of the system? Street projects, donating to gods, and consumption of end products.

    Not everyone does street projects and they're not always open.

    Donating to gods is useful when learning skills and somewhat gaining xp, but presumably will drop off depending on the rate of new skills and how fast people start maxing out.

    Consumption in other ways... Consider food. In general production of food is done so you can then acquire even more resources.

    I don't know if I have a solution. Having end products take a whole lot more resources would only end up with them being ignored. But I feel like there needs to be a larger sink of resources and a larger imposed need for things. There needs to be some kind of 'demand' on the system, not in terms of making things hard, but a big goal that people could work towards. Like upgrading your house - if it took a lot of high-tier items now there's a wrinkle and things get new value. (Consider vs. setting up a new house, the costs to fill the tree patches and get pigs/butterflies/chickens is pretty low compared to how much you can make with a little effort)
    Posted 14 months ago by Abby Smalls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I think Abby Smalls has it right, the supply is much much larger than the demand, and as we know from Econ 101 that drives prices way down. Some may say that Glitch isn't based on making money and you should just be a free spirit and do whatever, but the reality is that it is entirely centered around resource gathering (as Abby mentioned) and consequently on resource trading/buying/selling. That said, this could be entirely incorrect; the way the skill tree is currently set up there is a very low barrier to entry in virtually any type of crafting in Glitch, since the only thing you need is some free time to learn a skill (arguably that's all you'd ever need for anything but you get my point: it's easy to learn skills to craft just about anything). It could be the case that the way the game was designed that the player to player market place is supposed to be less of a highlight of gameplay, but I would be very very disappointed if that were the case.
    Posted 14 months ago by Devers Subscriber! | Permalink
  • "but the reality is that it is entirely centered around resource gathering (as Abby mentioned) and consequently on resource trading/buying/selling."

    No, it isn't.  Once you have enough money that there's nothing left for you to spend it on, except to fiddle around and speculate with money to make more money with it.... you  find that Glitch isn't entirely centered on anything of the sort.  Or, that resource gathering is important but not central, and certainly we're not in Ur just to make the currant number on ours account bigger.  At that point you can choose to move on to things like Ghost Hunting, learning Piety to fight the Ravens, Street Projects, etc.  Plus hanging around making and visiting with friends if desired. 

    Glitch isn't a money game, and once you reach a certain level of wealth, if that was your main focus you either get bored with the game or find new goals and interests in the game.  The only way to lose at Glitch is to get too focused on the minutiae and lose your balance.
    Posted 14 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • That's fine and all if you want a short shallow game that leads to a pretty chat room.

    I'd rather have an interesting, diverse game that supports a great community while having some level of interesting choices and economy. The game does not revolve around money, yes, but I don't know that completely ditching a sense of personal progress is the way to go.

    As much as I like many things about this game, I really am concerned that the idea that it is 'casual' means to a lot of people that any attempt at having balance or detailed systems is unnecessary or even wrong. It's perfectly feasible to create a game that allows for the person who likes wandering around hugging people and nibbling piggies to coexist with the person who wants to discover the underpinnings of the world and work out a way to achieve their idea of success.
    Posted 14 months ago by Abby Smalls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I would not like to see the end of vendors buying goods at all.  I want to be able to sell my stuff regularly, not for the highest price but just to know that it will be a source of income to spend on other things. 

    If vendors stopped buying it would spoil the game for me since I don't like auctioning stuff and not knowing if it will sell or how much I will get.

    I have enough economic worries in RL without that kind of hassle in Glitch!
    Posted 14 months ago by Cassandria Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Abby Smalls:  It's not clear to me what you are getting at.  My statement that 'glitch is not a money game' means I am taking a shallow approach to the game?  My hint: ' the underpinning of the world' do not have to do with calculating out how to accumulate the maximal amount of currants.  There's a lot more to it than the mechanics of a currant grind.  Go for your idea of success.  By all means do so.  But threads like this where people propose tweaking the marketplace to facilitate people earning more money, money, money that are misdirected, imho.

    For me:  I am still not really certain what my goals are here.  I know a few things that are not goals, though.  And mainly, its about 'Being Here.'  Be Here Now.
    Posted 14 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • My thoughts exactly, Cassandria
    Posted 14 months ago by shhexy corin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I also feel the economy is somewhat broken.  There are some items that I can turn a greater profit on via auctions than vendors, but very few.  And every day that profit window seems to shrink.  I see three possible solutions:

    1.  As someone mentioned above me, there needs to be more resource pits.  Also mentioned, there are currently no real long term reasons to associate with a regular group of players and form persistent community -- it's not that there is no community in Glitch, just that there are few in game pressures that make such convenient.  Player Organizations and special housing for them would be nice, but there would still need to be a reason for them to exist.  

    I'm thinking real estate.  Not that it's probably difficult to create the zones for quarters, but I'd like it if in the future all those zones are established and built by player organizations.  That's at least one example I see of a new resource drain.  It also provides more player created content and puts more content into the auction market.  

    2.  More skills.  More skills.  More skills.  I don't think the developers will let me down here, at least.  The key to open skill tree is forcing specialization within that system.  This game's skill system is similar to Eve, so to any not familiar with the MMO genre, forgive me while I reference it -- Eve's skill system, despite having no skill point cap, manages to force specialization by offering so many skills that last I heard it would take 27 years of real time for a player to learn and max out every skill in the game.  I'm not sure how much real time it would take to learn every skill in Glitch, but it can't be much more than a month, if that.  As it stands right now, if there's an item a player decides he or she really needs, they can just not log in for a few days while gaining the skills to obtain it.  

    So glitch needs a whole tier or two beyond what it currently has, with a higher commitment (time-wise) to learn the skills, perhaps a month to max out a new tier of cooking or alchemy or etc.  

    Then it needs to expand still more beyond that.  

    3. Vendor buyback needs to be drastically cut, eliminated, or limited in some fashion.  I'm sorry to players like Cass above me, but with Glitch being a crafting focused game that bills itself as an MMO, I think it needs more MMO in its crafting.  The auction UI could do with some more information to help make it less of a hassle for Cass---it should show all auctions of that current item not just the price per unit. But there are plenty of single player (you might enjoy mega miner) and massively single player (farmville) games where Cass can gather and sell to an NPC -- Glitch is only unique for its persistent world and massively multiplayer status.  The potential for a player driven economy is part of the draw for much of the jaded MMO crowd.  
    Posted 14 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I remain of a mind that there should be buy orders at auction, so that potential sellers have some idea of the demand for things.  Shifting the Auction House to a Commodity Market would address most of the above issues.  

    I'd go as far as to change the "base value" listed in item descriptions to being their value in terms of favor (I'm uncertain what's gained by obscuring that value, or by putting an external price on goods when there seems to be a macroeconomic game planned.)

    @Parrow, I think we disagree in fundamental ways, and that neither of us is alone in our thinking.  I'm not sure that we really understand each other either.  

    I would like to be making higher-end goods, but the prices that possibly altruistic competitors are setting mean that I feel like my contribution isn't valued.  It makes me want to give up that avenue of play, and maybe Glitch entirely.  I haven't decided yet.
    Posted 14 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Parrow: It's perfectly acceptable that the economy is not of interest to you.  But would a working economy make you leave the game?  

    For me, it's a requirement before I will give them any money at all.  

    I think that both of our play styles can coexist.  I even think they are complementary -- my play style has the potential to make your play style more enjoyable, and vice versa.  But while your play style is fine even if the economy is not functional, mine is not.  And since this is supposed to be an MMO, different players with different goals doing different things that directly or indirectly complement each other should be encouraged, rather than one play style or the other being dismissed -- it's good for the company if people play the game for different reasons since then, quite simply, more people play.
    Posted 14 months ago by Red Sauce Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Saucelah

    I completely agree with your points and think you have a lot of great insights there.

    One thing I would like to note about Vendor Buyback, as it has been talked about a lot... I really would not agree that it needs to be nerfed until the resource glut problem has been fixed. Without sufficient resource sinks, I feel like prices would bottom out as we'd be removing a substantial way to remove resources (well, exchange resources for currents, current inflation is something I don't want to bother thinking about right now). Think about like bubbles or gas, which can be harvested incredibly fast compared to how much they're used in eggs/cooking/beans... Unless a street project that needed them was open, the demand of nil would mean selling those resources would be terrible.

    So I guess basically I wouldn't want to rip out the vendor system. We want to have a more robust economy as a whole so that they can later be reevaluated and maybe tweaked down when not as necessary. :)
    Posted 14 months ago by Abby Smalls Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Sauchelah

    Right on! If people don't want to trade and don't care about money (though it seems to be those who have a ton and a nice house who don't care about money), fine, they don't have to. However, by dumping their good on the market for very low prices, it means anyone who wants to play that way. Then when I complain about it, they condescendingly tell me I should play the game their way or go to Hell.

    I also wonder about some of the twaddle from people who suggest I contribute nothing by trading in the auctions. I save people time by letting them do what they need. I trek to the other side of the world so people don't have to. Sure, it's not so bad when you can take the subway or teleport, but when you're a newb, it's nice to be able to buy stuff without haveing to walk across the world. Or I keep the newbs alive by selling sandwichs and other food in small quantities so that newbs on the verge of death can buy them. I spend the resources to gather and process and pay the listing fees for lots of small auctions. Of course my small lots cost more, but they fill a need for people who can't afford to spend a 1000 currants on sammiches when they're trying to stay alive.

    If somebody has more than they need now and really want to "share", then they can give stuff to newbs or drop stuff in the street. I do it. It's fun to do that too, but if I want spend my time sourcing goods, making goods, listing them in affordable lots and such and the system makes it cost me money to do so, I could see it getting to the point when I won't bother and the not bothering means not bothering with the game, not not bothering with trading. It's early days, so I'll certainly wait and see how it develops.
    Posted 14 months ago by Billy McBinky Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I need to point out one thing that I think has gotten lost in my comments, based on how I see people in the discussion re-interpreting my position.

    I am not saying that 'earning currents' is irrelevant.  I have spent a good amount of time doing just that.  I'm saying that it is not enough to make the game interesting for more than a few weeks of play.  There needs to be more, and I feel it's a mistake to dwell on 'the pursuit of currants' as an important part of the game structure.  There isn't much to do with currants once you have accumulated more than a certain amount, unless you continue gathering them just to 'have a big number.'  And I personally feel anybody who plays the game with that focus for more than a short while is cheating themselves out of what this game can and should be.

    Obviously some will disagree with me and we all can 'go our own ways' in the game.  But as the game progresses, we'll likely be voting on the direction it should take.  If Glitch turns into a leaderboard driven 'who can make the most money' race I will be disappointed.  I intend to do what I can to keep that from happening.

    I have the feeling that the developers of this game intend for it to be a really big space that includes a thriving Marketplace.  There will be space within the game culture for a Ferengi class of player, and a market for them to hover in and around.  Personally I wouldn't want that to not be part of the game.  But it will just be part of the game, just one class of player, and probably not a central focus.
    Posted 14 months ago by Parrow Gnolle Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Parrow, I think the disconnect is that you're hearing those of us who are depressed that prices are low in the auction saying "we want to make a lot of currants."  That's not my position at all.  If the game were "buy a nice house," I'd be done.  And indeed, there's no value to currants for currants sake.

    What I want is to be able to be part of a buzzing economy, where I can be buying bubbles and allspice and doing some crafting and selling Flaming Humbabas to alchemists.  As a for instance.  But right now, the prices on raw ingredients is very high compared to the prices for intermediary products, so I feel like the market as a whole is telling me that what's valuable right now is harvesting bubbles, allspice and gas.  

    The even louder message is that everyone should be doing everything for themselves: harvest, convert, mix, mine, crush, combine.  Everything.  And for me, that's very lonely play.  I don't know why Glitch is multiplayer if I'm supposed to do everything by myself.

    Nowhere in there is "I want a lot of currants."  I want an economy that is be a place where different Glitches can work together and do more than they could by themselves.  And right now, that only happens if I'm willing to give more than I get back.
    Posted 14 months ago by Yarrow Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Don't the raw ingredient stay high because of the demand for them during street projects?
    Posted 14 months ago by Violet Lapin Subscriber! | Permalink
  • A couple of reasons that raw goods cost so much in auction might be:

    To store stuff they can't keep in their bags temporarily.  When my bags filled up with ore the other day in the mines someone suggested that I "sell them" in auction to store them so I could mine some more until I was done at which point I would then end the auction and get my stuff back to sell it to the vendor.  

    Or maybe because of the street projects that recently occurred and called for raw goods.

    We don't know if the items are actually selling at high prices, just that they're being listed that way.  On several occasions I've listed stuff in the auction for the cheapest price and the items go unsold until I receive them back.  

    And most importantly, this is a game in an imaginary world.  The economics within it do not have to mimic our own.  
    Posted 14 months ago by Reba Subscriber! | Permalink
  • @Yarrow I see that too.  Though your experience doesn't seem to be what I've experienced.  Mind you, I've been adopted by a group, and our diverse skills have grown to complement each others', and most of us are doing it for amusement rather than returns.

    Outside of my particular group's experience, it sounds like everyone's learning everything and wanting to do everything because it's all new.  Eventually I assume people will prefer to specialise because it's just more convenient that way.  Right now it's probably "I could make money doing this!! or this!! or this!!"  I know I've switched lines of specialisation plenty of times already, mostly because I tried one line, I didn't like it, I changed, I didn't like it, I changed again, etc.  Others, as you proposed, might do their various lines concurrently :)
    Posted 14 months ago by Lara Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The role that buy orders play in an MMO economy is so well established that it's odd to me the feature wasn't built into Glitch. 
    Posted 14 months ago by Hydi Subscriber! | Permalink
  • late to the party, but this sums it up exactly for me:

    "I would like to be making higher-end goods, but the prices that possibly altruistic competitors are setting mean that I feel like my contribution isn't valued."

    Yarrow, i basically agree with you on everything. being part of the economy and watching it grow and evolve is a HUGE draw for me, and right now it's not going so well :P neither is the social aspect, to be honest. my boyfriend and i split up the skill trees so that we would need to rely on each other for various different things, but other than that i don't find myself working with others very much at all. it's definitely disappointing.

    i plan on sticking around, but right now i find myself getting bored quite easily.
    Posted 14 months ago by Rev. Desdemona Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Welcome to an MMO that requires easy farming. With everyone able to mine nodes of ore, there is no competition. The Auction House is designed for individuals who don't want to farm. The fact that you can just as easily as farm as to get them on the AH, terms apply.
    Posted 14 months ago by Dectade Subscriber! | Permalink
  • I also agree that there needs to be some serious economy tweakage, but I believe it will hopefully happen organically as the game and skill trees are expanded. The idea that there is no right or wrong way to play is twee, but the reality is having no real goals for your Glitch outside of purchasing a home, participating in projects and socialising does not an MMO make. We all have different play styles and it's certainly early days so I am certain that TS will have more in store for us and the player driven economy will shift and change accordingly.
    Posted 14 months ago by Foxglove Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Most of the points are covered here, but just one more thing to point out: achievements have positive value, so it's possible that's another reason why finished products are undervalued. This won't go away though.
    Posted 14 months ago by Saro Subscriber! | Permalink
  • Reminds me of early WoW. Everything stupidly cheap because people were pumping out items just to level their crafting (as we are all doing to try new things and gain xp and learn new recipes here). The economy settles down over time.

    I do think the Glitch auction house could be a bit more transparent about what things' vendor price is, so people realise they could sell stuff to a vendor for more than they'd get from the auction.
    Posted 14 months ago by Axe-a-lot-l Subscriber! | Permalink
  • The difference in WoW is that you can only train two professions of eight so it forced specialization more rigorously than Glitch's skill times. Within the next few months all of the early crafting-focused Glitches will all be able to craft everything craftable in the game and therefore be able to harvest and create and sell exactly the same products. There are no "rare" recipes in Glitch, no factions therefore no faction-specific recipes, etc., etc.

    While I, personally, find that less fun from an auction-house perspective I think it probably fits the world/game design because it encourages preferential trading. Meaning, when you can buy anything from anyone the choice becomes "who should I give my currants to" which, I imagine, will end up being "my friends" for pretty much everyone. Even in a game like WoW I frequently bought items at slightly higher prices simply because I'd rather my gold went to a friend than a stranger.

    What's most interesting about preferential trading is that it makes the auction house irrelevant.
    Posted 14 months ago by Hydi Subscriber! | Permalink
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